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simon jousef's GTR trading room
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simon jousef's GTR trading room

  #41 (permalink)
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My 2 cents

I'll chime in with my experience. I joined their room sometime in early Jan 2014 out of a desperate hail-mary attempt to find a profitable "edge" after years of hemorrhaging my trading account.

Pros:
- Lots of lots of videos and materials
- Can ask questions during the trading hours and they get answered quickly
- Good introduction to volume profile and how someone can possibly use it
- You can get an idea of how trade management works in real-time without trying to conceptualize from a book

Cons:
- Very ambiguous trade rules. Sometimes trades are taken at the edge of a smaller timeframe profile, sometimes a larger one.
- Ambiguous targets. Basically holding runner until you can't take it anymore and give in to the desire to take profit.
- Conflicting calls in the room because of different trading styles. You have a 5 tick scalper (Bob) and then those going for Swings (Simon) and Sandy doing both. Everyone is yelling into the mic at the same time mind you.
- Cost.
- They get people on only risking a couple of ticks, but that's a couple of ticks on 3 contracts, then they use 2 contracts to pay for the risk of the last contract and try to get a free ride. Not everyone can trade 3 contracts of CL.
- Knife-catcher. Simon is a counter-trend trader. When he catches a swing it's nice, but you will get stopped out more often than when you catch a good swing. So you need to have a well padded account and enough contracts to have a decent runner to make up for the stop outs.


Overall: I stopped going to the room after a couple of months because I realize it was distracting, confusing, and not really getting anything out of it. Don't make the same mistake I did. Save your 10k or however much it is now and fund yourself well when you gain some confidence to trade well.

The reality is that no one is going to "teach" you some magic formula you can repeat over and over again on how to trade profitably. Just like Lebron can teach you his moves, but it won't make you Lebron, nor will you probably play like him. So stop trying to be Lebron and go find yourself.

Just think about it for a minute. Do you really think you can somehow be profitable doing what everyone else is doing? The answer to profitable trading lies somewhere within that very question.

You're welcome, I just saved you 10k.

Nothing worth having comes easy.
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  #42 (permalink)
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fminus View Post
I'll chime in with my experience. I joined their room sometime in early Jan 2014 out of a desperate hail-mary attempt to find a profitable "edge" after years of hemorrhaging my trading account.

Pros:
- Lots of lots of videos and materials
- Can ask questions during the trading hours and they get answered quickly
- Good introduction to volume profile and how someone can possibly use it
- You can get an idea of how trade management works in real-time without trying to conceptualize from a book

Cons:
- Very ambiguous trade rules. Sometimes trades are taken at the edge of a smaller timeframe profile, sometimes a larger one.
- Ambiguous targets. Basically holding runner until you can't take it anymore and give in to the desire to take profit.
- Conflicting calls in the room because of different trading styles. You have a 5 tick scalper (Bob) and then those going for Swings (Simon) and Sandy doing both. Everyone is yelling into the mic at the same time mind you.
- Cost.
- They get people on only risking a couple of ticks, but that's a couple of ticks on 3 contracts, then they use 2 contracts to pay for the risk of the last contract and try to get a free ride. Not everyone can trade 3 contracts of CL.
- Knife-catcher. Simon is a counter-trend trader. When he catches a swing it's nice, but you will get stopped out more often than when you catch a good swing. So you need to have a well padded account and enough contracts to have a decent runner to make up for the stop outs.


Overall: I stopped going to the room after a couple of months because I realize it was distracting, confusing, and not really getting anything out of it. Don't make the same mistake I did. Save your 10k or however much it is now and fund yourself well when you gain some confidence to trade well.

The reality is that no one is going to "teach" you some magic formula you can repeat over and over again on how to trade profitably. Just like Lebron can teach you his moves, but it won't make you Lebron, nor will you probably play like him. So stop trying to be Lebron and go find yourself.

Just think about it for a minute. Do you really think you can somehow be profitable doing what everyone else is doing? The answer to profitable trading lies somewhere within that very question.

You're welcome, I just saved you 10k.



I never knew that they were all trading different strategies, hence the conflicting calls. I thought it was just a mess.

After reading your post I have just been to that room twice, first and last

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  #43 (permalink)
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fminus View Post
I'll chime in with my experience. I joined their room sometime in early Jan 2014 out of a desperate hail-mary attempt to find a profitable "edge" after years of hemorrhaging my trading account.

Pros:
- Lots of lots of videos and materials
- Can ask questions during the trading hours and they get answered quickly
- Good introduction to volume profile and how someone can possibly use it
- You can get an idea of how trade management works in real-time without trying to conceptualize from a book

Cons:
- Very ambiguous trade rules. Sometimes trades are taken at the edge of a smaller timeframe profile, sometimes a larger one.
- Ambiguous targets. Basically holding runner until you can't take it anymore and give in to the desire to take profit.
- Conflicting calls in the room because of different trading styles. You have a 5 tick scalper (Bob) and then those going for Swings (Simon) and Sandy doing both. Everyone is yelling into the mic at the same time mind you.
- Cost.
- They get people on only risking a couple of ticks, but that's a couple of ticks on 3 contracts, then they use 2 contracts to pay for the risk of the last contract and try to get a free ride. Not everyone can trade 3 contracts of CL.
- Knife-catcher. Simon is a counter-trend trader. When he catches a swing it's nice, but you will get stopped out more often than when you catch a good swing. So you need to have a well padded account and enough contracts to have a decent runner to make up for the stop outs.


Overall: I stopped going to the room after a couple of months because I realize it was distracting, confusing, and not really getting anything out of it. Don't make the same mistake I did. Save your 10k or however much it is now and fund yourself well when you gain some confidence to trade well.

The reality is that no one is going to "teach" you some magic formula you can repeat over and over again on how to trade profitably. Just like Lebron can teach you his moves, but it won't make you Lebron, nor will you probably play like him. So stop trying to be Lebron and go find yourself.

Just think about it for a minute. Do you really think you can somehow be profitable doing what everyone else is doing? The answer to profitable trading lies somewhere within that very question.

You're welcome, I just saved you 10k.

Totally agree with every word from Fminus, Ill also add from my experience.

I have years of experience with limited success with trading so I sat in for a few trial sessions with the GTR, unfortunately I got suckered in to a membership at a cost of $8000 in installments.

They offer you different pay plans to suit, which can be tempting, but I soon realized it was not as it seems.
They add up their tick count combine between the 3 of the guys that take the room so it sounds appealing.

The days I sat in on the trial I did see some success but soon realized when I joined up that its impossible to get any where near the amounts they were totaling.

Simon's trade calls are hard to follow because he calls them as he's pulling the trigger and they are all counter trend trades. I followed the trade calls many times but i never got the positive results that they said they the were getting but the complete opposite.

Same as Fminus, I stopped going to the room after 3/4 months as I realized it was not working for me.
Anyone with some experience with Analysis can get the direction of the markets right, but its the Trade management, staying in trades and not over trading is the hard bit, something that takes years to develop.


Last edited by Fxfutures1976; July 16th, 2015 at 01:29 PM.
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  #44 (permalink)
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FRONT RUNNING MUCH?


Fxfutures1976 View Post
The days I sat in on the trial I did see some success but soon realized when I joined up that its impossible to get any where near the amounts they were totaling.

Simon's trade calls are hard to follow because he calls them as he's pulling the trigger and they are all counter trend trades. I followed the trade calls many times but i never got the positive results that they said they the were getting but the complete opposite.

AND


rocksolid68 View Post
For starters I have never seen them take any trade on Thursday nights. "Volume is too light ...too slow...etc."

I believe they can trade but I also have found you cannot really follow their trades - even in SIM.

Simon makes rapid fire calls "Buy bid! Buy bid!" and then magically gets filled...you do not. Or if you do at a worse price you often get stuffed on a quick stop out.


I tried to quote two people above, hope this works.

I should first declare that I have NOT attended this trading room at all. So what I am about to say is my own theory as to what is going on. I read this thread in its entirety and I want to comment on something that novice traders may not have pieced together which is hazardous to miss.

The two members above both comment on how the announcer Simon shouts his trades at the last moment. Both members above say they were not able to replicate Simon's fills -one member says he could not replicate the results even on a sim account. <--- This is a dead giveaway, as most sims will give you unrealistically good fills.

The reason Simon calls his trades late or at the last minute, is because Simon is Front Running his own clients. He wants to enter in the market before everyone else, so he has the best fill. While getting a good fill by itself is not evil, it's what happens afterward that is both sinister and illegal:

Simon first gets his own fill,
Simon shouts to all the other members "Buy bid! Buy bid!"
The (hundreds?) of members in the room all rush in at once with their bid orders of 3+ contracts each,
The bid is suddenly bombarded with 1000+ contracts, possibly much much more.
It's even probable that at the same moment, some members of the room panic and hit the offer with aggressive limits and market orders,
The market reacts, and jolts up a few ticks, possible much more depending on liquidity.
As a result of this jolt, Simon gets filled on his first profit target of 5 ticks and exits 2/3rds of his position.
Simon has booked real profits and has stellar trading results to post for the trading room's official track record, even if his last contract stops out at break even.
Everyone else has been left in the dust with no fill, or a bad fill that dooms them to take a loss on the trade. Not to mention the stress involved with constantly having results so wildly different than their trade room leader. Their psychology alone at this juncture dooms their trading.

This is why the two members who posted here said they were both unable to replicate Simon's results. Because it is highly likely that Simon is front running. Being that Simon and the other instructors in this room are self proclaimed order flow experts, they will have a tough time convincing a jury that they did not know what they were doing at the time they were doing it. Order flow was their methodology and they used it to exploit their own clients.

In fact, I wonder how often Simon's own students who have sent a market order trying to enter in, have unknowingly been filled when they bought Simon's own sell to close limit orders?

This is really sinister. It's not enough these guys are charging their students thousands of dollars for trading results they know the students can't replicate, but they even front-run their own children to make some extra money on the side. Just wow...

If what I have described is what is actually occurring in that trading room, then Simon (and others) are successfully using exploiting their own clients to front run orders, forcing the market where they want it to go briefly, so they can exit to their benefit, and to their students' detriment. This is illegal. Now if ANY person is running a popular trading room this is probably very easy to do. So guys, why not learn to trade independent of trading rooms altogether?

Front Running financial definition of Front Running

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  #45 (permalink)
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HectorPriamedes View Post
AND




I tried to quote two people above, hope this works.

I should first declare that I have NOT attended this trading room at all. So what I am about to say is my own theory as to what is going on. I read this thread in its entirety and I want to comment on something that novice traders may not have pieced together which is hazardous to miss.

The two members above both comment on how the announcer Simon shouts his trades at the last moment. Both members above say they were not able to replicate Simon's fills -one member says he could not replicate the results even on a sim account. <--- This is a dead giveaway, as most sims will give you unrealistically good fills.

The reason Simon calls his trades late or at the last minute, is because Simon is Front Running his own clients. He wants to enter in the market before everyone else, so he has the best fill. While getting a good fill by itself is not evil, it's what happens afterward that is both sinister and illegal:

Simon first gets his own fill,
Simon shouts to all the other members "Buy bid! Buy bid!"
The (hundreds?) of members in the room all rush in at once with their bid orders of 3+ contracts each,
The bid is suddenly bombarded with 1000+ contracts, possibly much much more.
It's even probable that at the same moment, some members of the room panic and hit the offer with aggressive limits and market orders,
The market reacts, and jolts up a few ticks, possible much more depending on liquidity.
As a result of this jolt, Simon gets filled on his first profit target of 5 ticks and exits 2/3rds of his position.
Simon has booked real profits and has stellar trading results to post for the trading room's official track record, even if his last contract stops out at break even.
Everyone else has been left in the dust with no fill, or a bad fill that dooms them to take a loss on the trade. Not to mention the stress involved with constantly having results so wildly different than their trade room leader. Their psychology alone at this juncture dooms their trading.

This is why the two members who posted here said they were both unable to replicate Simon's results. Because it is highly likely that Simon is front running. Being that Simon and the other instructors in this room are self proclaimed order flow experts, they will have a tough time convincing a jury that they did not know what they were doing at the time they were doing it. Order flow was their methodology and they used it to exploit their own clients.

In fact, I wonder how often Simon's own students who have sent a market order trying to enter in, have unknowingly been filled when they bought Simon's own sell to close limit orders?

This is really sinister. It's not enough these guys are charging their students thousands of dollars for trading results they know the students can't replicate, but they even front-run their own children to make some extra money on the side. Just wow...

If what I have described is what is actually occurring in that trading room, then Simon (and others) are successfully using exploiting their own clients to front run orders, forcing the market where they want it to go briefly, so they can exit to their benefit, and to their students' detriment. This is illegal. Now if ANY person is running a popular trading room this is probably very easy to do. So guys, why not learn to trade independent of trading rooms altogether?

Front Running financial definition of Front Running

i would have to agree with you i am a member and have been for about close to a year now i only trade the clude ym,Nasdaq,gold because these are the ones that have the most sucess ,plus i have the bang bang indicator myself so i can see the levels allso , so i only take trades that meet the market profile plus guys and this is very important you have to have a very big account to follow their trades because they make be in three trades at one time this is the part that they do not tell you so if you do not have a account size of 25000 at least this is not the room for you i do not atend the room nomore because i can trade on my own now . i now listen to truesquawk ever-morning for the news straight form the pit and i get a direction of where the market is heading for the day

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  #46 (permalink)
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the Front runnin' room

Nice analysis btw!

I didn't really think much about front running during live trade rooms. Good point. I checked on your link and it said, "...that knowing that other investors are about to take a position that will positively influence one's own."

I guess Simon HOPES they would take a position but certainly he can't "know" they will. After all, he's just calling out his own trades, right with no position? He is a CTA however, so i'm sure some ethical thoughts have arisen in his mind.

Where as your link was referring to marketmakers who have a professional/fiduciary role to fill orders and they actually "know" where orders are placed on the other side because they actually see it. So I don't think Simon's actions are illegal. But cool topic!

I was in that room a few times on free Tuesdays, thank god I didn't join.

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  #47 (permalink)
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Interesting read from HectorPriamedes.

Id Just like to add a few more details about my experience.

There were very contradicting sayings In the Trials, They would say ...you can earn while you learn by following their trades, but when you're a member in the members only classes, Simon would say, don't trade live until you can trade off your own back.

They like to make up their own names for different types of trades to make it sound different like powerlines, suction tubes, bang bang trades, poke poke, then there's the latest one, The knife trade...! They also use tick charts which one can presume are better than minute charts.

You can make up your own mind about the GTR but it just seemed like a big sales pitch with these very common methods that have been given different names to sound unique.




HectorPriamedes View Post
AND




I tried to quote two people above, hope this works.

I should first declare that I have NOT attended this trading room at all. So what I am about to say is my own theory as to what is going on. I read this thread in its entirety and I want to comment on something that novice traders may not have pieced together which is hazardous to miss.

The two members above both comment on how the announcer Simon shouts his trades at the last moment. Both members above say they were not able to replicate Simon's fills -one member says he could not replicate the results even on a sim account. <--- This is a dead giveaway, as most sims will give you unrealistically good fills.

The reason Simon calls his trades late or at the last minute, is because Simon is Front Running his own clients. He wants to enter in the market before everyone else, so he has the best fill. While getting a good fill by itself is not evil, it's what happens afterward that is both sinister and illegal:

Simon first gets his own fill,
Simon shouts to all the other members "Buy bid! Buy bid!"
The (hundreds?) of members in the room all rush in at once with their bid orders of 3+ contracts each,
The bid is suddenly bombarded with 1000+ contracts, possibly much much more.
It's even probable that at the same moment, some members of the room panic and hit the offer with aggressive limits and market orders,
The market reacts, and jolts up a few ticks, possible much more depending on liquidity.
As a result of this jolt, Simon gets filled on his first profit target of 5 ticks and exits 2/3rds of his position.
Simon has booked real profits and has stellar trading results to post for the trading room's official track record, even if his last contract stops out at break even.
Everyone else has been left in the dust with no fill, or a bad fill that dooms them to take a loss on the trade. Not to mention the stress involved with constantly having results so wildly different than their trade room leader. Their psychology alone at this juncture dooms their trading.

This is why the two members who posted here said they were both unable to replicate Simon's results. Because it is highly likely that Simon is front running. Being that Simon and the other instructors in this room are self proclaimed order flow experts, they will have a tough time convincing a jury that they did not know what they were doing at the time they were doing it. Order flow was their methodology and they used it to exploit their own clients.

In fact, I wonder how often Simon's own students who have sent a market order trying to enter in, have unknowingly been filled when they bought Simon's own sell to close limit orders?

This is really sinister. It's not enough these guys are charging their students thousands of dollars for trading results they know the students can't replicate, but they even front-run their own children to make some extra money on the side. Just wow...

If what I have described is what is actually occurring in that trading room, then Simon (and others) are successfully using exploiting their own clients to front run orders, forcing the market where they want it to go briefly, so they can exit to their benefit, and to their students' detriment. This is illegal. Now if ANY person is running a popular trading room this is probably very easy to do. So guys, why not learn to trade independent of trading rooms altogether?

Front Running financial definition of Front Running



Last edited by Fxfutures1976; August 4th, 2015 at 07:03 AM.
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  #48 (permalink)
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leledc View Post
No...the so called magnet is a level in the footprint where ask=bid.
10x10
20x20
32x32 etc

I am looking into these "price magnets" as well. Is this all there is to it? Do you think there is any beneft to this system? I am sure these levels could be duplicated if what you say is true.

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  #49 (permalink)
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Greg4hvn View Post
I am looking into these "price magnets" as well. Is this all there is to it? Do you think there is any beneft to this system? I am sure these levels could be duplicated if what you say is true.

There is nothing special about the price magnets. If you think that there is some magic inside bid and ask equaling the same, you my friend, have a long way on your trading journey.

The bid x ask is all relative to the time frame that you're looking at. A 50x50 could be inside a bigger 1000x1001. Which one is correct? The answer is both. If you play around with his magnet indicator, you'll notice that on higher time frames it will draw less "magnets" than if you were looking on a lower time frame.

Also, because of statistics and reversion to the mean, these lower time frame magnets will get reached simply due to the nature of the markets and the search for fair value. If you really want to find something that will be a magnet, use what everyone else is using (POC, VPOC, gaps, etc).

They offer you nothing that you can't figure out yourself for free with some hard work and experience.

Nothing worth having comes easy.
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  #50 (permalink)
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fminus View Post
There is nothing special about the price magnets. If you think that there is some magic inside bid and ask equaling the same, you my friend, have a long way on your trading journey.

The bid x ask is all relative to the time frame that you're looking at. A 50x50 could be inside a bigger 1000x1001. Which one is correct? The answer is both. If you play around with his magnet indicator, you'll notice that on higher time frames it will draw less "magnets" than if you were looking on a lower time frame.

Also, because of statistics and reversion to the mean, these lower time frame magnets will get reached simply due to the nature of the markets and the search for fair value. If you really want to find something that will be a magnet, use what everyone else is using (POC, VPOC, gaps, etc).

They offer you nothing that you can't figure out yourself for free with some hard work and experience.

I understand what you are saying, but they are making some good calls, somehow their system seems to work pretty well for them, even if I don't understand why their system works, which I agree with you, the price magnets don't make sense to me either. I was able to follow some of the trades today, but some calls are too fast to catch. I don't believe front running is really how they are succeeding, it would seem you need more than that to really move the markets, but I am not an expert on this. They are the most consistent trading room I have seen that uses market profile, I wish I could find a cheaper and more understandable alternative, have not found that yet. Maybe someone has a better suggestion?

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