What Training courses you have please give me your review - futures io
futures io



What Training courses you have please give me your review


Discussion in Trading Reviews and Vendors

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one Sasha with 17 posts (8 thanks)
    2. looks_two aviat72 with 8 posts (6 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Ron Schnee with 7 posts (5 thanks)
    4. looks_4 kamd with 6 posts (3 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one cbratton with 7 thanks per post
    2. looks_two Slipknot511 with 4.7 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 aviat72 with 0.8 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Sasha with 0.5 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 31,312 views
    2. thumb_up 65 thanks given
    3. group 26 followers
    1. forum 79 posts
    2. attach_file 1 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

Closed Thread
 
Search this Thread
 

What Training courses you have please give me your review

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
aqt1981
Melbourne, Victoria
 
 
Posts: 6 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 0 received

Can you please tell me about what training courses you have done online. If they were any good?


Journal Challenge April 2021 results (now extended!):
Competing for $1800 in prizes from Jigsaw
looks_oneMaking a Living with the Microsby sstheo
(206 thanks from 24 posts)
looks_twoSalao's Journalby Salao
(53 thanks from 11 posts)
looks_3Deetee’s DAX Trading Journal (time based)by Deetee
(48 thanks from 18 posts)
looks_4Learning to Profit - A journey in algorithms and optionsby Syntax
(36 thanks from 15 posts)
looks_5Maybe a little bit different journalby Malykubo
(14 thanks from 16 posts)
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
Big Mike in Ecuador
76 thanks
The Crude Dude Oil Trading System
73 thanks
Help improve the FIO community
38 thanks
The New Micro Contract - MICRO BITCOIN coming May 2021
29 thanks
futures io site changelog and issues/problem reporting
27 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received


excellent idea to get some feedback early on. I have some opinions along this line, but I won't give any negative response in this site with names attached.

Suffer to say, that the $2500 and up courses are not necessary to begin with in your study and maybe never will be. Stay away from brick and mortor schools that have built in overhead, as much can be obtained with live webinars or two day hotel seminars that will be more the real market price.

Money back within a period is good, to me it speaks of a persons confidence that he/she will impart something in the allotted time and release you if you just can't fit to them.
This may not be available from bigger places with many sales staff to feed.

Some people will bad mouth a place maybe because it does not fit with their mindset, there are many takes on this business. (scalp vs swing, risk size, which market etc)
Try to do demo's first and don't get in a big hurry to sign up on a deal, they will come around again with offer reductions. Scale in with a small package first, make sure it is credited to a scaled-up offer.

Someone who stresses account management / money management and helps with an understanding of psychological barriers / traps is almost necessary as this is the reality you will face without them.
good luck
schnee

The following user says Thank You to Ron Schnee for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
 cbratton 
Cebu, Philippines
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 70 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 128 given, 117 received

About a year ago I bought the 101A course from the Advanced Trading Workshop. I paid quite a bit for it, but since it has doubled in price.

First off, I do not recommend this to anyone, unless you want to waste your money. Though to be fair I'll give both the positives and negatives of what I saw.

If you sign up for the free trial, you will be consistently harassed by Brian, who is the salesperson of the room or ATW Help. He will keep trying to invite you into a private session and give you a sales pitch "we want to get to know you better". Also, every morning both Andy and Brian try to make a sales pitch to everyone on the free trial and those who have already bought the course because everyone is stuck in the same room. I feel sorry for those who bought the course because to hear the same thing every day is very frustrating.

When you buy the 101A course you get three months of the same room that you were in on the trial, but you still see the same thing. You also get access to the 101A course only room, but I can tell you nothing much ever happens in there and what you see in the free trial room you also see in the 101A course owners only room.

With the purchase of the course you also get access to the video archive, which has quite a few videos, I think around 150, it goes back about 2 1/2 years. Most of the videos are a repeat of the same thing. If you see it one time you will not learn anymore than that, the stuff is very easy to understand, I don't understand why they need 20 videos on each subject. The videos that you can watch on the free trial is pretty much what you will see when you buy the course, so don't be fooled when they say they have so much more training on this "subject" when you buy the course, because that is just not true. If you understand it and can explain it to a total stranger, then watching the video a couple more times will not help. I say this because Andy says everybody should watch the videos several times each, but is will not help you become a better trader, people wish it were that easy. Also, you lose access to the videos after the 3 months is up, which in my opinion is kind of a scam, because you bought the course and they don't let you have access to the vidoes anymore after you paid for them.

Now to the systems. With the course you get several systems, including the AC300, AC400, ACRX, ACChannel, and several more, but those are the main ones. I can tell you don't buy the course because of the systems, you will be very disappointed. All the systems are is just a moving average, Bollinger bands, channels, and the MACD. You can look at their charts and replicate the results if you wanted to. The colors are nothing special either, it's just based off of the MACD. They also make such a big deal about divergence trading. If you trade a pivot divergence, meaning two pivots it's about a 50% win rate, so pretty random, maybe a triple pivot divergence is about 60%. It's a joke when Andy goes on webinars to make a sales pitch and goes through a day showing how effective that technique is, but after the fact and real time are completely different. Of course after the day is done if you see a divergence trade it is always a winner, because the divergence disappears if it was a losing trade, you'll know what I mean if you watch the markets real time.

They also put an emphasis on VSA or volume spread analysis. The problem is they look at 1 minute charts. In really volatile and fast moving markets a 1 minute might make sense, but most of the time is does not. If you focus on a 1 minute chart you will get destroyed. You will see a lot of reversals and most will fail, and the ones that don't you still won't make much. If you look at enough bars of course you will see some buying or selling, so if one bar out of twenty bars shows some selling your going to sell, I can tell you that's a bad idea.

On the positive side some people really like the ATW. They will stand up and tell you how much value there is in the ATW and the course is way underpriced. BTW, the 101A course lists for $4,995. It's funny how those same people still need to subscribe to the trading room after years, which costs $200/month.

My final thought and advice is to not to waste your time or money on the ATW. I wish I had read a review like this then I could have avoided that pitfall also. If you really want, sign up for the 30 day free trial, nobodies stopping you everyone has a free choice of what he or she does.

After looking at the ATW and many other sites I can honestly tell you what is offered at this site Big Mike's Trading forum is worth so much more than all the Advanced Trading Workshop courses and products combined.


Here's more reviews on the ATW: https://traderopinions.com/indicators/advanced-trading-workshop-aka/

The following 7 users say Thank You to cbratton for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
CTGUY
Brentwood, Tennessee
 
 
Posts: 39 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 171 given, 25 received

When I took the leap into the forex, I took a course by Peter Bain and I highly recommend the course if you're interested in learning.

 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
london
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: ninja
Trading: fgbl
 
Posts: 152 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 64 given, 44 received

hi,
having attended live courses and bought online courses ranging from $400 to $4000 i can honestly tell you that none were worth the money. tradestalker do a good ebook and tom williams book, james daltons mind over markets(tough though). think very very very carefully before you hand over your hard earned cash - the courses i have been on leave more questions unanswered than anything else providing you with picture perfect examples that only work once in a while - and they don't tell you when these methods are unlikely to work.. Read trading articles on investopedia and join forums - i think its a matter of immersing yourself in the industry/concepts until you really get it which is how its just beginning to work for me.

The following user says Thank You to anniebee321 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 dimkdimk 
Melbourne
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, ThinkOrSwim, Kinetic
Trading: Options, Forex
 
dimkdimk's Avatar
 
Posts: 38 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received

I can recommend courses from Dr. Burry Burns. It is at www.topdogtrading.com

Very great courses and easy trading approach. Basically, after a few monthes of practicing it made me not a losing trader. That is in fact big progress already on its own ;-) comparing to what I was :-)

Follow me on Twitter
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

Weighted towards forex but still applicable to the question asked.
I have not been anywhere else on this site. RS

Learn Forex With Top Forex Trading Education Sites

 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

Hit enter too soon; I forgot to mention that the course reco'd by Dimkdimk above (TopDog) is one found in the webpage URL I pasted above.

TopDog gets overall positive comments and is priced low (cheap).
I have watched his five video free sampler, worth the time definitely. Just sign up and get the connections with emails.

For a new person, they can get a good grounding and won't be out a lot and have regrets if you change your mind about trading later on. At least about the education cost part. The course that costs a small account is NOT where to start.
RS

 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 dimkdimk 
Melbourne
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, ThinkOrSwim, Kinetic
Trading: Options, Forex
 
dimkdimk's Avatar
 
Posts: 38 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received



Ron Schnee View Post
Hit enter too soon; I forgot to mention that the course reco'd by Dimkdimk above (TopDog) is one found in the webpage URL I pasted above.

TopDog gets overall positive comments and is priced low (cheap).
I have watched his five video free sampler, worth the time definitely. Just sign up and get the connections with emails.

For a new person, they can get a good grounding and won't be out a lot and have regrets if you change your mind about trading later on. At least about the education cost part. The course that costs a small account is NOT where to start.
RS

I just want to add that please don't make your opinion about the course based on those 5 videos. Course itself is much deeper and much better. Those five videos are just to understand if you like a manner of a teacher and his style of education.

In the course you will get mostly videos and pdfs as a short summary. Most of the things are explained in real trading environment and gives you additional feeling of dynamics.

Plus, you can get your money back anytime. I don't know anybody who did that though among my peers.

Good extra to that course is you can subscibe to a 3-times per week newsletter. A lot of useful information there as well.

Burry have developed indicators described in his course : that is really piece of work ! I just love those.

P.S. Search in the internet or youtube there are a few free videos from Burry. You can get some info for free ;-) Just search in youtube : topdogtrading

P.P.S Burry does many web-conferences, we may approach him and he may host one of futures.io (formerly BMT) webconferences. I have no idea if he wants this though.

Follow me on Twitter
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 emerson 
NYC, NY
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT, TOS
Broker: NTBrokerage/Continuum & Kinetick
Trading: NQ
 
emerson's Avatar
 
Posts: 23 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 294 given, 35 received

I was part of the James16 group (forex) for a month. It was OK, nothing spectacular. You can get pretty much all the material from his free thread on forexfactory or the free guest material on his site (sorry can't post links yet). . It's OK to join for 1 month at $129 if you're a beginner. The MM and psychology sections are pretty good. Other members put up their systems, but they're nothing spectacular. You can get better info on this forum IMHO.

Quite a while ago I joined Phil Newton's trading-strategies.info site. He mainly traded forex and occasionally the eminis. I was way too new to trading to get much out of his site but he is a good teacher and trader. I've had success with some of his setups like the Fake Break Reversal and R'n'B. He dramatically raised prices recently.

 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received

I would recommend "No B.S. Day Trading". It is very compelling and will cost you a bit less than the other courses out there.
I have learned a lot from this guy, and i can tell you that reading his book was an eyeopening experience.
Give it a try, you won't regret it for that money.

 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
marktcoleman
Edina, MN
 
 
Posts: 1 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

Van Tharp's Peak Performance focuses on the most sensitive variable in trading equation - you. Helps you understand where you may parts within yourself that are in conflict, for example -

- part of you values security and so you may get anxious before a trade
- part of you wants to protect you from failure, so you procrastinate when you get a signal
- part of you protects your self-esteem, so you don't take losses quickly (until they're big)
- part of you wants to be right and generates a bias thats in conflict with your signals

When a guru teaches a new trading system, he/she doesn't teach the mental syntax they use to successfully trade the system , and most purchasers will give up after a few consecutive losses. Peak Performance is helping me think like a pro, and its beginning to make a big difference (and I sleep better at night)

 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
 cunparis 
Paris, France
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Market Delta & Ninjatrader
Trading: ES
 
cunparis's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,565 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,162 given, 2,081 received

Go for the free stuff. Webinars by OFA, L2ST, Market Delta, they're all free. Go here:

Futures Trading Education. Emini Trading Courses. MIRUS FUTURES.

tons of free webinars there. then trader's kingdom has some more. Find out what you like, whom you respect, etc. before spending any money. I wasted some money on stupid courses. I tell you one thing if it doesn't look professional then run because the ones I've seen were just some guy rambling with no agenda or anything else.

Follow me on Twitter
The following 3 users say Thank You to cunparis for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
 fiki 
sweden
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS, NT
Trading: ES
 
fiki's Avatar
 
Posts: 212 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 61 given, 433 received

i really like futurestrader71:s free webinars:

Simplicity in Trading: The Chat Session Archive

i think they are better them most commercial educations.

The following user says Thank You to fiki for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
 Zephyr 
Nashville, TN
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS + NT
Broker: TBD
Trading: NQ, CL, eminiRussell +
 
Posts: 49 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 26 given, 43 received

You can find almost everything you want for FREE by searching the internet.

I spent some good funds on courses in my early days. Many of them were not even remotely worth what they cost, most especially if they came from Trader's Library or MarketPlace Books. Even the more expensive courses are often poorly compiled and unprofessionally delivered, qualifying more as a promotional to further selling you more expensive services like "advanced courses", trading rooms, signal services, scanning software or proprietary indicators.

Some of the best video trading instruction comes via YOUTUBE.COM videos. I'm amazed at what I've been able to learn from obscure "Joe Traders" who made videos of their strategies.

The best instruction, IMO, comes from the myriad of excellent books that have been professionally published. NONE of the courses costing hundreds to thousands of dollars comes close to the well-written books. (ie: "Mastering The Trade" by John Carter). That is just one -- there are MANY that are excellent.

Search the internet ... and make time to study what you find.

The following user says Thank You to Zephyr for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
 emerson 
NYC, NY
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT, TOS
Broker: NTBrokerage/Continuum & Kinetick
Trading: NQ
 
emerson's Avatar
 
Posts: 23 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 294 given, 35 received

FWIW, here is another fx review site that is pretty active:

reviewpips[dot]com

 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
sandross
Gold coast
 
 
Posts: 2 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

Has anyone from australia done any emini courses or could someone recommend any,totally new to trading and seeking help.

Got onto lots of forums but lots of people bagging courses for various reasons so trying to emerge from the jungle with some positive feedback.Ross

 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
Marqui
San Diego
 
 
Posts: 14 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 27 given, 6 received

For a good introduction to Barry's explanation of how mass psychology drives the market, go to the archives section on his TopDogTrading site for Sep 10 2009 and watch the 1 Hour Recorded Webinar.

 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
 vegasfoster 
las vegas
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Velocity/IB
Trading: 6E
 
Posts: 1,147 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 304 given, 839 received

This site has a ton of training videos, scroll down the list on the right to the bottom. It takes a while to load on my computer, but they cover most everything. And have a good day!

YouTube - InformedTrades's Channel

The following user says Thank You to vegasfoster for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
 Slipknot511 
Springfield,Missouri, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader (It's a love/hate relationship)
Trading: CL, TF, 6E
 
Slipknot511's Avatar
 
Posts: 176 since May 2010
Thanks: 60 given, 311 received

I have gone through dozens, if not a hundred, books & courses. My gut instinct is to say that 99.9% are a waste of time and money, yet I'm sure I gleaned at least one valuable concept form most of them. Who's to say that one nugget was not worth the price paid? It's extremely difficult to attribute value to courses and books. I think this is because just as every trader is uniquely different & the methodology that will work for them is unique, so too are the resources that will help them achieve their goals.

The paradox of trading resources is that it is difficult at best to know in advance if a particular course or book will benefit you. There are items mentions highly in this thread that I think are garbage. And there are also materials mentioned as useless that I think had some value for me. The other posters and myself are probably both correct in our opinions.
That being said, I think there are a few guidelines that warrant a big "Caution" from a trading course, book, video or whatever:
1) Promises of easy riches. This is a lie. PERIOD! I hit delete the instant I see the words "Secrets", "riches", "easy" or if there are pictures of bikini babes, beaches and exotic cars. All I can say is, "Run Forest, RUN!"
2) Subscriptions or recurring fees as opposed to selling a product outright. This approach is usually designed for one purpose: To generate cashflow. There are exceptions though.
3) Be cautious of the advice given on the myriad of internet forums. Most of these consist of losers looking to other losers for direction or affirmation. There are a few successful traders who frequent these, but they are few and far between.

Be aware that there is a huge industry that makes a fortune on marketing and cross-marketing trading related goods and services. I'm very leery of ads or spam of so-called traders informing us about their "buddy" over at company XYZ who has cracked the code of the markets. Over the years, I regularly see the same names popping up again and again selling a new system every year or two. Often these sellers are a shill for each other. Buyer beware.

There are signs that a seller or educator might be legitimate:
1) The exact opposite of all the things above. They stress how difficult trading is and that it is anything but a path to easy riches. (At his CBOT webinars, Mark Fisher often says that trading is the second most difficult job in the world after President of the USA".) He may be right.
2) A strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology. Experienced traders know that Psychology and money management (risk management) are 90% or more of the game and methodology makes up the small balance.
3) A lack of selling pressure. I have only one educational resource that I spend money on regularly. I have NEVER been solicited by this person. He has NEVER urged me to buy his book or subscribe to his daily commentary. This trader only even has a live commentary because a group of us literally begged him to do so. To be blunt, he is not a good author or educator, but is the best damn trader I know of.
4) In my 7 years of experience in this industry, i can honestly say the best resources are usually free. These can be web resources like futures.io (formerly BMT). The exchanges are an excellent source of free education.
5) Just because someone charges, does not make them a huckster. Successful traders and good educators know that charging for their services keeps the dreamers and hecklers from monopolizing their time. It assures those they devote their time to are willing to invest in their education.
6) There is absolutely no correlation between price and value... whatsoever!

Many won't want to hear this, but the spot forex market is a breeding ground for sharks. It was made available to the public for one reason: to separate you from your money, not because anyone felt the need to create a new income opportunity for us. The lure of this market is an appeal to item number 1 above - The desire for easy riches. Yes, it is possible to make good money trading retail forex... but VERY FEW do.
Likewise for the exchange traded instruments. Do we honestly think the e-mini was created because the exchange felt sorry for the general public and wished for us to get a slice of the pie also? The pit traders call us "paper", the electronic professionals have a name for us also: "Liquidity". You are on their playground, playing with their ball by their rules. If you can't recognize & accept this, then you have already lost. You need to answer one question: "What have you got going for you that they don't?". Find the answer and you find success.

Lastly: NEVER, never, never, never ever give up! Winners all have one common trait: The absolute refusal to accept failure. At the risk of revealing my inner nerd, I quote Yoda, "Do, or do not. There is no try.".

The following 10 users say Thank You to Slipknot511 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received

Thank you, Slipknot511. That is a nice summary, hard to argue with what you said. I'll risk to add a couple of remarks:

1. "Difficult" is too vague of a term. When somebody tells me that it is difficult I want to know more: why? in what way?. After all if it is easier job than US Presidents, we now know that any idiot can do it no problem. So if it is not intellect that requires to be a good trader or a regular president of US, than what?

2. There are fake guru's and a lot of them who are exploiting "strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology" demand. Not to insult anyones feelings, but I can name a few that were highly regarded in this thread. To illustrate I'll mention only one such fake guru - L2ST Kam: he would not offer you an easy road to riches but an easy road to learning and conquering the psychological aspects of the trade for example. I couldn't complete his expensive 3 day course, had to quit after 3 hours, exhausted from his constant bragging and thousands of "OK's". Like Van Tharp himself Kam is a proud "NLP (and all other new wave discipline's) certified practitioner" and will try to hypnotize you and cure all of your problems in a very funny and naive sounding way. There are many others as well that will take your money promising what they have no clue how to do.

P.S.fiki mentioned a truly good teacher that is not absolutely free anymore, but he is still good though.
P.P.S. Where it come to trading methodology, I will concur on MarketDelta free video's and pdf's. These a truly good. The psychological aspects of the business are best covered by Brett N. Steenbarger in my opinion. He is a no BS professional and doesn't do voodoo magic. If you'd like to turn to hypnosis still, do not expect to fall in trance after listening to Van Tharp L2ST etc. It will save you time and money to use a professional here as well, thou on the surface it seems more expensive. But at least you'll get what you are looking for.

The following 2 users say Thank You to Sasha for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
 Slipknot511 
Springfield,Missouri, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader (It's a love/hate relationship)
Trading: CL, TF, 6E
 
Slipknot511's Avatar
 
Posts: 176 since May 2010
Thanks: 60 given, 311 received

The best way I can describe difficult is with an analogy: Losing weight is very simple - eat less and exercise more; yet millions of people find it incredibly difficult to lose weight.
Simple, but very hard to actually do... Just like trading.

Steenbarger is one of the good guys. He's very open and honest.
The irony is: just because someone can't do, does not mean they can't teach well.

The sad thing is that there must be more snake-oil salesmen in this industry than any other... except maybe for the weight-loss industry.

Here's my list of people I think are legit:
Al Brooks
Alexander Elder
Don Miller
Linda Raschke
This is my short list of people I know who actually trade for a living, not sell for a living & have been doing it for at least 20 years. When these folks talk, I listen.

The following 2 users say Thank You to Slipknot511 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received

I would definitely shorten your list even more by removing the first 3.
When people talk of snake oil salesmen that can not make their living trading but are making good money selling books about it, 2 names come first to my mind - Elder and Bernstane. Following them and their many followers never could possibly bring consistent profits.
Brooks and Miller used to make money in the past, but judging from their failure to adopt to the new market conditions, I doubt they do it now. And certainly people without their screentime will fail if following their teachings.
Linda is the real deal thou.
There are some people that I wish were here when I began trading: discoverytradinggroup is one of them. I found that their 3 free videos gave me more than about a $100,000 worth of books and videos and in a much shorter time.
P.S. I do not mean to be argumentative, just helpful. And all of the above is my opinion nothing more...

The following 2 users say Thank You to Sasha for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
Rumble
Virginia
 
 
Posts: 5 since May 2010
Thanks: 1 given, 13 received

I think the master swing trader is valuable for most traders. You can get the book from your local library and see if you respond to the material before you buy any training courses. I don't like to recommend anything that costs money because trading has so much to do with the individual what works for me might not work for you. With that said I think the material is worth the cost. It is comprehensive and guides the trader very well on building a plan for entries and managing trades.

The website is at hardrightedge.com. I do not trade with indicators, and this material includes indicators. Many of them, tells you how to use them together. All the usual. I think it was good for me. Helped me become a well rounded trader. I feel like it's important to know how other people trade even if you don't trade the same way.

You could find everything for free on the internet, but if someone was interested in saving time and having an organized "lesson plan" than again I think it is worth while. It is not expensive. I would not list it with the scams that are out there.

One of the big concepts that is covered is market cycles and how to trade them correctly with the right tools.

 
(login for full post details)
  #26 (permalink)
 Don M 
San Jose, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,MC,TS
 
Don M's Avatar
 
Posts: 2 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

I can vouch for this post. I too have used most of the training videos on Informedtrades.com. They are very thorough for the beginning trader. Everything for Stocks, Bonds, Futures, and The history on the financial markets.

 
(login for full post details)
  #27 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


Don M View Post
I can vouch for this post. I too have used most of the training videos on Informedtrades.com. They are very thorough for the beginning trader. Everything for Stocks, Bonds, Futures, and The history on the financial markets.

Master swing trader? Are you selling something? Is it a joke?

 
(login for full post details)
  #28 (permalink)
itrade4income
Upstate, NY
 
 
Posts: 3 since May 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received

IMO these so called guru's are completely worthless and a waste of your time and money. Think about it, if anyone can make a comfortable living and have freedom to spend your day doing whatever they wish. Why would they be spending all day and night training people who know nothing about the markets or trading? It's all a big fat scam to get your money because they can't make a living from trading the markets so they make their money from poor soles that don't know any better. Why aren't these guys in chat rooms or in these type of forums helping other independent traders? After all its us against the banks and large financial institutions right? There are many free chat rooms with good traders and alot of free video's and some good books that you can educate yourself and save the money you would be wasting on training courses and use it for trading capitol when you're ready to trade live.

I hope this helps and good trading

Cheers
itrade4income

 
(login for full post details)
  #29 (permalink)
 dimkdimk 
Melbourne
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, ThinkOrSwim, Kinetic
Trading: Options, Forex
 
dimkdimk's Avatar
 
Posts: 38 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received


itrade4income View Post
IMO these so called guru's are completely worthless and a waste of your time and money. Think about it, if anyone can make a comfortable living and have freedom to spend your day doing whatever they wish. Why would they be spending all day and night training people who know nothing about the markets or trading? It's all a big fat scam to get your money because they can't make a living from trading the markets so they make their money from poor soles that don't know any better. Why aren't these guys in chat rooms or in these type of forums helping other independent traders? After all its us against the banks and large financial institutions right? There are many free chat rooms with good traders and alot of free video's and some good books that you can educate yourself and save the money you would be wasting on training courses and use it for trading capitol when you're ready to trade live.

I hope this helps and good trading

Cheers
itrade4income

While 90% you are right, still 10% you are wrong.
1. Why Gurus are teaching ? Well, it might be just a matter of risk preference. If they become tired of everyday risk exposure and just want calm working day for example. However, young and energetic traders would prefer trade every swing, every move.

2. Second, you mentioned some chat rooms and books. Well isn't that a same scum ? I have read a lot of books where authors have nothing to say, basically.

3. Third, is not that true that whole educational system ( I mean Universities, etc. ) is the same big scum? Why teachers go to teach ? Yes, right, if they can't make money using their knowledge then they go teach :-) I saw a lot of talanted people teaching in University. Why they teach ? Go work and make money in business, economy, mathematics instead of brain washing young fellows. :-)

4. Afterall, what is this forum about ? Why you guys are here ? Go trade, make money for a living, don't teach us professionals how to trade :-) Don't waste money on post, lets trade.

No offense mate. There is everywhere a place for scum and a place for real value. It is on us to decide. That is why I really stand for Rating agencies. In this case we ( this forum ) is a rating agency. And we say that the product is good or not. That is how open market works.

Follow me on Twitter
 
(login for full post details)
  #30 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

Had a thoughtful reply made up and accidently hit the tab key. It's gone. *%*!

Mainly I feel we need to offer each promoter (trading guru) at least a five minute or whatever open minded acceptance that he or she may be the real thing.

Ultimately we can find somewhere what will be called an opportunity.
We all found futures.io (formerly BMT) didn't we?

So I give DimkDimk's #1 reason above room to work. For me.
While there are people selling stuff we do not like, we shouldn't diss all them out of hand with a big paint brush .

We are in the drivers seat, not them. Just walk away.

So, what I would caution anyone new to trading to do is early-on is to walk away from anyone asking for over two grand or even $999 for a relationship with you of some kind.

If you are new you do not know what may be the methodology you want to grow with and spend time on. And you will spend time.
So not to say they are ultimately bad, just over priced in the market. And it is a competative market.
I have learned from high priced guys yes, and part of what I have learned from low priced guys is there is just as much value there to begin with and you can look again if you want to because you have not dropped ten grand in one place.

Great to have futures.io (formerly BMT) forums and threads here to learn with too.

Ron

 
(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
 sam028 
Site Moderator
 
 
sam028's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,676 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 3,790 given, 4,508 received


dimkdimk View Post
...
3. Third, is not that true that whole educational system ( I mean Universities, etc. ) is the same big scum? Why teachers go to teach ? Yes, right, if they can't make money using their knowledge then they go teach :-) I saw a lot of talanted people teaching in University. Why they teach ? Go work and make money in business, economy, mathematics instead of brain washing young fellows. :-)
...

This is not true, some people (I'm not talking for trading teachers, as I don't know any of them) are teaching because they like teaching, that's it.
And it may sounds odd, but some very talented people are not interesting at all in making money, really not at all !!!

Success requires no deodorant! (Sun Tzu)
Follow me on Twitter
The following 3 users say Thank You to sam028 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
 dimkdimk 
Melbourne
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, ThinkOrSwim, Kinetic
Trading: Options, Forex
 
dimkdimk's Avatar
 
Posts: 38 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received


sam028 View Post
This is not true, some people (I'm not talking for trading teachers, as I don't know any of them) are teaching because they like teaching, that's it.
And it may sounds odd, but some very talented people are not interesting at all in making money, really not at all !!!

Exactly ! That is why I always try to explain to guys that not everything is scum in market trading education.

Follow me on Twitter
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
 sam028 
Site Moderator
 
 
sam028's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,676 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 3,790 given, 4,508 received


dimkdimk View Post
Exactly ! That is why I always try to explain to guys that not everything is scum in market trading education.

Maybe yes, but the ratio (scum/good people who likes teaching) is much much higher in trading than in music or math !!!
So not always scum, but a very large majority.

Success requires no deodorant! (Sun Tzu)
Follow me on Twitter
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
 Slipknot511 
Springfield,Missouri, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader (It's a love/hate relationship)
Trading: CL, TF, 6E
 
Slipknot511's Avatar
 
Posts: 176 since May 2010
Thanks: 60 given, 311 received

This was already posted once, but I'll share it again:




Studies show that once personal monetary benchmarks have been achieved, money no longer becomes a significant driving force behind our motives. I'd say I have to agree. I reached the limits of my aspirations in my career years ago & began looking for other things to achieve fulfillment. I began teaching & began my journey learning to trade for a living. You'd be surprised how many teachers do not fall into the category of "Those that can't do , teach"; but instead they are in the "Been there... Done that" group.

The following 2 users say Thank You to Slipknot511 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
itrade4income
Upstate, NY
 
 
Posts: 3 since May 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received


dimkdimk View Post
While 90% you are right, still 10% you are wrong.
1. Why Gurus are teaching ? Well, it might be just a matter of risk preference. If they become tired of everyday risk exposure and just want calm working day for example. However, young and energetic traders would prefer trade every swing, every move.

2. Second, you mentioned some chat rooms and books. Well isn't that a same scum ? I have read a lot of books where authors have nothing to say, basically.

3. Third, is not that true that whole educational system ( I mean Universities, etc. ) is the same big scum? Why teachers go to teach ? Yes, right, if they can't make money using their knowledge then they go teach :-) I saw a lot of talanted people teaching in University. Why they teach ? Go work and make money in business, economy, mathematics instead of brain washing young fellows. :-)

4. Afterall, what is this forum about ? Why you guys are here ? Go trade, make money for a living, don't teach us professionals how to trade :-) Don't waste money on post, lets trade.


No offense mate. There is everywhere a place for scum and a place for real value. It is on us to decide. That is why I really stand for Rating agencies. In this case we ( this forum ) is a rating agency. And we say that the product is good or not. That is how open market works.


dimkdimk,

Everything is debatable, and I'm sure we could go back and forth until the cows come home. I will answer your reply and will leave it alone at that.

1. Everyone gets burned out in every occupation and business. And we all have our own goals and levels of acchievements and of course level of contentment. For me and I'm 99% sure that the overall goal for most traders is to build an equity curve to the level that would allow us to take several vacations a year or only trade 5 to 20 hours a week. And to the next level where you hire an CTA or Managed Futures account and have someone else do all the trading for them. Thus providing a passive income and at the same time having the freedom to live the life of their dreams. So, I really don't concur with your theory on this.

2. Again, thats what these forums are all about. Traders exchanging information and ideas on good and bad books, videos and other usefull information. As far as scum in the forums, they rise to the surface and get weeded out.

3. I believe you're drawing straws with this reply. What are you saying that our education system is about scum teachers brain washing young adults? Do you have a higher education? No offense, but it doesn't sound like you do with this reply. Are there bad teachers in the educational system? Of course there are, again they get weeded out and float to the top and move on. Seen it here in my local educational system in New York State.

4. I can't speak for others, but I'm in forums for several good reasons. A) Trading is a lonley business and the forums help with interaction with others that have the same interest. Why are you here???? B) I learn from others as well as trying to help others which is the concept of the forum. Which I think Big Mike would agree. Ask Big Mike why he's here. C) Not sure about you, but it doesn't cost me money to post in here or any other forum.

Moderator Notice
Moderator Notice



In closing, the more I was typing this reply the more feeling I got that you're one of the Guru's preying on new traders. It's obvious that you are from some educational system. Like I said earlier they rise to the surface and get washed away. Good Luck Mate and no offense, just calling it as I see it. If the shoe fits.

Cheers
Itradeincome

 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

itrade4income,
Amazing how you see into and past the page and can know the persons' (dimkdimk's) motives and who they are from their posts on one topic.
"Good luck and no offense" ??

 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
 ZTR 
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader7
Broker: Mirus RCG/Zen-Fire
Trading: CL & 6e, looking at ES, ZB and AU again.
 
ZTR's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,099 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 1,099 given, 1,392 received


Ron Schnee View Post
itrade4income,
Amazing how you see into and past the page and can know the persons' (dimkdimk's) motives and who they are from their posts on one topic.
"Good luck and no offense" ??

The point of my comment above was to keep this civil. These posts are now "off-topic" as they only have to do with motives of a community member, not training.

I will leave them as a reminder that this is a path we discourage, unless another mod or higher want to delete them.

R.I.P. Andy Zektzer (ZTR), 1960-2010.
Please visit this thread for more information.
Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
T
2. There are fake guru's and a lot of them who are exploiting "strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology" demand. Not to insult anyones feelings, but I can name a few that were highly regarded in this thread. To illustrate I'll mention only one such fake guru - L2ST Kam: he would not offer you an easy road to riches but an easy road to learning and conquering the psychological aspects of the trade for example. I couldn't complete his expensive 3 day course, had to quit after 3 hours, exhausted from his constant bragging and thousands of "OK's". Like Van Tharp himself Kam is a proud "NLP (and all other new wave discipline's) certified practitioner" and will try to hypnotize you and cure all of your problems in a very funny and naive sounding way. There are many others as well that will take your money promising what they have no clue how to do.

P.S.fiki mentioned a truly good teacher that is not absolutely free anymore, but he is still good though.
P.P.S. Where it come to trading methodology, I will concur on MarketDelta free video's and pdf's. These a truly good. The psychological aspects of the business are best covered by Brett N. Steenbarger in my opinion. He is a no BS professional and doesn't do voodoo magic. If you'd like to turn to hypnosis still, do not expect to fall in trance after listening to Van Tharp L2ST etc. It will save you time and money to use a professional here as well, thou on the surface it seems more expensive. But at least you'll get what you are looking for.


I am spending time in Kam's room for the past week. Currently they only do the US AM session, no live Euro session. During the week, they primarily traded ES though he also talked about his DAX trades he took in the Europe session.

In the beginning of the session he talks about the Market Profile and where he feels the market is likely to do business. He then comments on the market price action as he sees it on Market Delta and recommends entry points depending on the price action. While observing the price action, he comments on what he says, and how to manage the trades as they unfold. I find his technical reading of the market quite helpful.

I personally like the Market and Volume Profile based approaches, which I was introduced to via FuturesTrader71. The Discovery Trading Room videos hosted at MarketDelta are also very helpful. However, neither FT71 or the Discovery guys explain the actual setups live for you. That is where the L2ST live webinar based approach is really useful. I have seen a lot of people talking about trading the order flow/price action but very few people describing what exactly they are looking for, and how to validate their hypothesis.

I personally felt, that Kam captures the emotions and fears of what a trader is likely to feel very well. He specifically instructs people on what different emotions you are likely to go through prior to entering the trade, the first few minutes when you have risk on, after reaching your initial profit target and then with the runners. Each phase of the trade requires a different attitude and he continuously adapts his commentary as the trade progresses.

Though I am a big fan of Dr. Brett, I find Kam's demonstration of those ideas live very helpful. Kam understands both the technical aspects of trading and the psychological aspects of trading, and combines both of them live, in the heat of the market. You are unlikely to get the same experience with an outside psychologist.

Perhaps if you are an already profitable trader working in a professional environment, and want to take your game to the next level, an expert psychologist might help. However for most individual traders working in isolation, those expert options are not easily accessible or affordable.

On a technical level, I feel that his style works best for ES/DAX/YM type of products but not that well on CL. I think I can use elements of what he teaches in CL too, but not that well as ES.

On a psychological level, I can relate to many of the issues and problems he is trying to address. Perhaps you already have a very strong trader psychology and do not need help there.

Like cunparis, I also feel that spending at least a month or two in his trading room is going to be truly worth the money spent. He has also opened a blog https://partners.wsj.com/etrade/in-the-trading-zone/ which has tons of free videos etc, which are definitely worth checking out.

--------------------------------------------

On a different note, some other people have questioned why these vendor are selling their services if they are very good traders themselves. Here are some comments based on my personal interaction with the vendors.

-> One person runs an active trading room, also markets a variety of technical indicators and products. He has a fairly successful business selling those products. In his own words, he trades MUCH better, knowing that he DOES not have to make a living from his trading profits but can rely on his secure revenue stream of products.

-> The trading room is also a marketing mechanism for up-selling. A low-cost trading room helps them sell higher value add products. The person I mentioned above has a variety of different products and a lot of people are very happy subscribing to them and profiting from trading those.

->For many traders, being able to communicate and share their thoughts is like a journaling process in itself. It helps enforce discipline and sticking to a trading plan better. They might be gurus, but they are still human and experience the same ups and downs in life as any one else.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following 3 users say Thank You to aviat72 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post
I am spending time in Kam's room for the past week. Currently they only do the US AM session, no live Euro session. During the week, they primarily traded ES though he also talked about his DAX trades he took in the Europe session.

In the beginning of the session he talks about the Market Profile and where he feels the market is likely to do business. He then comments on the market price action as he sees it on Market Delta and recommends entry points depending on the price action. While observing the price action, he comments on what he says, and how to manage the trades as they unfold. I find his technical reading of the market quite helpful.

I personally like the Market and Volume Profile based approaches, which I was introduced to via FuturesTrader71. The Discovery Trading Room videos hosted at MarketDelta are also very helpful. However, neither FT71 or the Discovery guys explain the actual setups live for you. That is where the L2ST live webinar based approach is really useful. I have seen a lot of people talking about trading the order flow/price action but very few people describing what exactly they are looking for, and how to validate their hypothesis.

I personally felt, that Kam captures the emotions and fears of what a trader is likely to feel very well. He specifically instructs people on what different emotions you are likely to go through prior to entering the trade, the first few minutes when you have risk on, after reaching your initial profit target and then with the runners. Each phase of the trade requires a different attitude and he continuously adapts his commentary as the trade progresses.

Though I am a big fan of Dr. Brett, I find Kam's demonstration of those ideas live very helpful. Kam understands both the technical aspects of trading and the psychological aspects of trading, and combines both of them live, in the heat of the market. You are unlikely to get the same experience with an outside psychologist.

Perhaps if you are an already profitable trader working in a professional environment, and want to take your game to the next level, an expert psychologist might help. However for most individual traders working in isolation, those expert options are not easily accessible or affordable.

On a technical level, I feel that his style works best for ES/DAX/YM type of products but not that well on CL. I think I can use elements of what he teaches in CL too, but not that well as ES.

On a psychological level, I can relate to many of the issues and problems he is trying to address. Perhaps you already have a very strong trader psychology and do not need help there.

Like cunparis, I also feel that spending at least a month or two in his trading room is going to be truly worth the money spent. He has also opened a blog L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com - L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com which has tons of free videos etc, which are definitely worth checking out.

--------------------------------------------

On a different note, some other people have questioned why these vendor are selling their services if they are very good traders themselves. Here are some comments based on my personal interaction with the vendors.

-> One person runs an active trading room, also markets a variety of technical indicators and products. He has a fairly successful business selling those products. In his own words, he trades MUCH better, knowing that he DOES not have to make a living from his trading profits but can rely on his secure revenue stream of products.

-> The trading room is also a marketing mechanism for up-selling. A low-cost trading room helps them sell higher value add products. The person I mentioned above has a variety of different products and a lot of people are very happy subscribing to them and profiting from trading those.

->For many traders, being able to communicate and share their thoughts is like a journaling process in itself. It helps enforce discipline and sticking to a trading plan better. They might be gurus, but they are still human and experience the same ups and downs in life as any one else.

Hey, I've understood that we are sort of comrades here so felt a duty to warn you about another little thief out to get us. It is up to you to listen to my warning or ignore it. I am sure that you'll come to the same conclusion at the end thou since all that I heard from the poor fellow was pretentious mumbling and million times repeated self-compliments -- the guy is not shy at all.
But again if it works for you -- great! The only suggestion is: before advertising here another NLP black belt professional, why don't you show us your results first? Can you post your profits for us to see? I swear that would be very impressive, to the point that most of us, right after thanking, you will be joining L2ST room next day. Including myself.
How about it? Take another week or 2 trading with that guru and show us what you have achieved.

 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
Hey, I've understood that we are sort of comrades here so felt a duty to warn you about another little thief out to get us. It is up to you to listen to my warning or ignore it. I am sure that you'll come to the same conclusion at the end thou since all that I heard from the poor fellow was pretentious mumbling and million times repeated self-compliments -- the guy is not shy at all.
But again if it works for you -- great! The only suggestion is: before advertising here another NLP black belt professional, why don't you show us your results first? Can you post your profits for us to see?

(1) In the week or two I have spent in the room, the guy has been nailing it. Part of the reason is that we have been a range bound market where market profile based responsive actions make great trades. He did recognize the trend day breakout which occurred after the BOJ decision (Oct 5) and warned people not to fade the move.

Here are some videos which summarizes the day's action for the past few weeks. Judge for yourself. You may have to register at the blog to view them.
The List of Videos: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
October 5 The Trend Day Video: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
October 4 Summary: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
September 28 Summary: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com



(2) If you read Dr. Brett's Daily Trading Coach book, the first few chapters themselves focus on your on psyche and what is needed to bring about the change. Those changes are not easy to make. They require time and effort.

At least to me, having a plan which makes sense, and then sticking to it, is perhaps the most important part of being a successful trader. The money eventually follows, as long as you have done your home-work. The biggest challenge of course is sticking to the plan and that requires a lot of work on your own self-being.

In the words of the active trading-room guy I referred to in the previous post "..Trading is about confidence ...". If you do not have confidence in your system, and your ability to execute on your system it becomes a losing game.




Quoting 
I swear that would be very impressive, to the point that most of us, right after thanking, you will be joining L2ST room next day. Including myself.
How about it? Take another week or 2 trading with that guru and show us what you have achieved.

(3) I think there lies the problem. You are looking for the holy grail and believe that you can train for two weeks and nail it. The process of becoming a consistently profitable trader requires a lot of time/effort. Above all it requires work on yourself.

On a technical basis, Kam's approach is fairly straightforward. He first marks the zones where responsive sellers/buyers are likely to appear and then looks at order flow for confirmation of that hypothesis. There is no magic in that and it a fairly well understood system.

However, making money not only requires a good technical understanding of the system, but the ability to adapt to what the market is telling you. That is where the psychological part comes in. Are you willing to cut your losses when the order flow is showing more initiative action? Are you willing to hold on to your runners and maximizing your profits?

FWIW, in the L2ST mentor-ship program, Kam strongly recommends that new traders do NOT trade live for AT LEAST six months. He first wants you to have confidence in the technical system you are trading and master its nuances, and then have confidence in your psychological ability to execute that system.

I personally agree with him, even though I am not a part of the program and do not plan to not trading for the next 6 months.

(4) It would really be helpful if you can specify what exactly you disliked about the L2ST folks. Perhaps they themselves have grown as educators and are doing a better job communicating now than they did a few months ago when you joined them.

I do not know how long you have been trading and how many ups and downs you have been through. I personally have had a front row experience (as a front desk quant) at a group which first made 10 digits USD profits, and then lost 11 digits USD. It was OPM but still it was real money. I have seen the Lords of the Universe lose it psychologically, up close and personal. Those trades happened over a period of many months, but the psychological component was not dramatically different from what a day-trader experiences. That is perhaps why I can relate to many things which Kam talks about.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following 2 users say Thank You to aviat72 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,489 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 2,427 given, 3,758 received


Sasha View Post
.
Brooks and Miller used to make money in the past, but judging from their failure to adopt to the new market conditions, I doubt they do it now

What do you mean "adopt to the new market"?

I have lots of respect for Al Brooks and I honestly believe he is profitable.
For once, he is the LEAST of a salesman in this industry, and seldom Al goes out and does a webinar here and there and sells nothing after. Even his own forum is not run by him. He wrote a book, and from what I know about publishing and royalties, he gets almost nothing out of it. I don't think this book is for beginners, and therefore I wont recommend it to the fella who started this thread. But I can say that for me, it did 2 major things, if I may share: it removed the clutter where simplicity of method became the ultimate sophistication.
But above all, it made me realize where amateur traders place their trades (greed) and where they get out (fear).

I don't mean to start an argument, just sharing my experience with a person that I actually interact with and have respect for.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post

(4) It would really be helpful if you can specify what exactly you disliked about the L2ST folks. Perhaps they themselves have grown as educators and are doing a better job communicating now than they did a few months ago when you joined them.

Perhaps they have grown up, if it is possible to grow up from being a lier, but it doesn't seem so merely judging from that non-trading for 6 months restriction. How do you built confidence by "not trading for at least 6 months", I wonder? That method of confidence building might work or it might not, but what it will guarantee is that you'll be able to continue paying his fees for at least 6 months. Later you'll blow your account, quit trading and stop paying L2ST I guess but your confidence'd be solid!

Now here is what I dislike. My first trading room was Woodie's and it took me a while to figure out what caused my discomfort over there. It was 2 things : Woodie's vagueness and sometimes straight lies(e.g. CCI is a leading indicator) combined with fanatics attacking every descender or even every relevant question. Other than that his teachings made a lot of sense, he is definitely very experienced profitable trader himself, he also would call the market accurately when the conditions were right and his approach to psychological issues is unique and can definitely work for many. And it is free! But I am glad that I left his room.
You see, nobody would waste a second of their time on a guru who is not even close to sense. In other words all that it takes to sell a guru is an impression that he can teach, that he knows something, and you can not make such an impression with complete BS - the competition is huge. So there are quite a few of them that have more than complete BS to offer. MP and MD are my tools as well and I trade in almost the same way L2ST sells you. The problem is that all his method would fit a couple of pages or fifteen minutes movie, that's it. The rest is just junk, mumbling of moron. That is why it is so frustrating : you listen for hours and hours of incomprehensible self-promoting mumbo-jumbo while all you need to know is written in a few words on the screen(and booklet itself is not bad btw). And when it comes to things other than his trading "system" it turns into complete BS. I mean NLP and hypnoses and other magic he thinks he possess: that is just funny. I certainly agree that the psychological aspects of trading are the most challenging and very important, but I would not trust such important things to such a dilettante "Mentalist" who himself is likely high all the time(that is judging from the way he talks).
To summarize, I suggest you watch his "Scalping the DOM" lecture and tell me if you can figure out how to scalp the DOM after it. Or at least find any small piece useful information in there. I don't remember if it was free or paid but I applied a lot of effort into it and watched it a few times - I love the subject and couldn't believe that there is absolutely, and I mean absolutely nothing hidden inside several hours of fast talk.

So that is not MP or delta or psychology of trading that I reject, on the contrary. I just despise when a guy who himself is apparently sick wants my money to teach me how to cure my lesser illness.

But I will be glad to change my mind if you could show your statement with profits. Just hide the account number and other personal information and post it here. It would be greatly appreciated and would speak louder than any words. I do not use any such services for a year or so, but I promise I'll join yours if you can show that you can trade, why not?

 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


mattz View Post
What do you mean "adopt to the new market"?

I have lots of respect for Al Brooks and I honestly believe he is profitable.
For once, he is the LEAST of a salesman in this industry, and seldom Al goes out and does a webinar here and there and sells nothing after. Even his own forum is not run by him. He wrote a book, and from what I know about publishing and royalties, he gets almost nothing out of it. I don't think this book is for beginners, and therefore I wont recommend it to the fella who started this thread. But I can say that for me, it did 2 major things, if I may share: it removed the clutter where simplicity of method became the ultimate sophistication.
But above all, it made me realize where amateur traders place their trades (greed) and where they get out (fear).

I don't mean to start an argument, just sharing my experience with a person that I actually interact with and have respect for.

Arguments are OK mattz, they often lead to truth. I never said that I disrespect Al Brooks. What I meant is that the world and the market have moved on. There are new tools out there (e.g. Market Delta) that utilize the new abilities given to us recently by computers and such as well as there are new conditions that are created by such new abilities (Robots are now trading the markets and they are very good and very fast).
So thou you are certainly right about simplicity and greed and ultimate sophistication, head'n'shoulders doesn't work as it used to. What I suggest is to pick up the pearls from the older guys and move on with the rest of the world.

 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

I'm in signaltrading. Signal Trading - Live Daytrading Futures Forex Room they offer free week trial and they are honest, they loose money just like you and me on some days but they are monthly profitable. More learning than just calling out trades.

Signaltrading AND bigmike forum are the 2 sources I learned everything from (and my 30 books I have read :-)

They have now an 90 day intensive course 'learn how to daytrade' that might be interesting checking out.

 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
 AR01 
CA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: MT4, Ninja Trader
Trading: EUR/USD
 
Posts: 495 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 400 given, 627 received


Sasha View Post
... head'n'shoulders doesn't work as it used to....

I'm not certain what this means.

Certain patterns do not work on all timeframes. The H&S pattern just happened on the S&P500 daily chart. Go back and look at how the bear market started in 2008 and you will see a H&S pattern.

I have attached the S&P500 from this year. Will this hit the target? Only time will tell because the market will do what it will do. Have a plan, trade the plan, exit when the market structure doesn't follow your expectations.

Andrew

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	H&S on S&P 500 Daily 2010.png
Views:	161
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	22359  
Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following user says Thank You to AR01 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
Perhaps they have grown up, if it is possible to grow up from being a lier, but it doesn't seem so merely judging from that non-trading for 6 months restriction. How do you built confidence by "not trading for at least 6 months", I wonder? That method of confidence building might work or it might not, but what it will guarantee is that you'll be able to continue paying his fees for at least 6 months. Later you'll blow your account, quit trading and stop paying L2ST I guess but your confidence'd be solid!

He wants you to sim-trade during the first six months with active journaling on both the technical and psychological aspect of the trades. This follows from his beliefs that it takes some time to rewire your brain to what come's naturally i.e. taking quick short profits but hoping that the losers become profitable. Repeated success with a system (in sim) helps builds the confidence you need to stick to it when it is real money at stake. I have not seen or experienced anything yet which would suggest that that his approach is not valid.


Quoting 
MP and MD are my tools as well and I trade in almost the same way L2ST sells you. The problem is that all his method would fit a couple of pages or fifteen minutes movie, that's it. The rest is just junk, mumbling of moron. That is why it is so frustrating : you listen for hours and hours of incomprehensible self-promoting mumbo-jumbo while all you need to know is written in a few words on the screen(and booklet itself is not bad btw).

That is the impression I have too. That the basic technical understanding is good and for some one who is not familiar with understanding order-flow and market-profile, his approach is quite good. For some one who already understands those aspects very well, of course it is 15 minutes stuff as you say. But for those who do not understand those aspects well or a beginner it is a good lesson. Definitely worth spending a month or two understanding.


Quoting 
And when it comes to things other than his trading "system" it turns into complete BS. I mean NLP and hypnoses and other magic he thinks he possess: that is just funny. I certainly agree that the psychological aspects of trading are the most challenging and very important, but I would not trust such important things to such a dilettante "Mentalist" who himself is likely high all the time(that is judging from the way he talks).

I think this is a much better information/criticism. I will keep that in mind when I review the stuff.


Quoting 
To summarize, I suggest you watch his "Scalping the DOM" lecture and tell me if you can figure out how to scalp the DOM after it. Or at least find any small piece useful information in there. I don't remember if it was free or paid but I applied a lot of effort into it and watched it a few times - I love the subject and couldn't believe that there is absolutely, and I mean absolutely nothing hidden inside several hours of fast talk.


In his room scalping is not something he talks about in any significant way. His focus primarily has been on identifying a couple of scenarios which are likely to happen pre-market, then observing order-flow to confirm that the market is responding in the expected way or not, and accordingly adapting the trading plan with well defined exit points. It has a very strong and clean focus on using very short time-frame order flow information to confirm the larger time-frame hypothesis built upon volume and market profiles.

BTW I found the videos on youtube also.



Brian the second speaker, talks a lot about shorter term balances, retracements etc. and how to build and monitor expectations around shorter term market action within the backdrop of the longer term perspective.

I am not sure I have watched all the DOM stuff yet, but from whatever little I have watched, there have been certain specifics which do help provide the clues you would need a more systematic scalping strategy.

From your words, it does seem that you are a successful trader and the issues which Kam is trying to address are not something you need help with. I think that is great.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post
He wants you to sim-trade during the first six months with active journaling on both the technical and psychological aspect of the trades. This follows from his beliefs that it takes some time to rewire your brain to what come's naturally i.e. taking quick short profits but hoping that the losers become profitable. Repeated success with a system (in sim) helps builds the confidence you need to stick to it when it is real money at stake. I have not seen or experienced anything yet which would suggest that that his approach is not valid.



That is the impression I have too. That the basic technical understanding is good and for some one who is not familiar with understanding order-flow and market-profile, his approach is quite good. For some one who already understands those aspects very well, of course it is 15 minutes stuff as you say. But for those who do not understand those aspects well or a beginner it is a good lesson. Definitely worth spending a month or two understanding.



I think this is a much better information/criticism. I will keep that in mind when I review the stuff.




In his room scalping is not something he talks about in any significant way. His focus primarily has been on identifying a couple of scenarios which are likely to happen pre-market, then observing order-flow to confirm that the market is responding in the expected way or not, and accordingly adapting the trading plan with well defined exit points. It has a very strong and clean focus on using very short time-frame order flow information to confirm the larger time-frame hypothesis built upon volume and market profiles.

BTW I found the videos on youtube also.
YouTube - learn2stocktrade's Channel


Brian the second speaker, talks a lot about shorter term balances, retracements etc. and how to build and monitor expectations around shorter term market action within the backdrop of the longer term perspective.

I am not sure I have watched all the DOM stuff yet, but from whatever little I have watched, there have been certain specifics which do help provide the clues you would need a more systematic scalping strategy.

From your words, it does seem that you are a successful trader and the issues which Kam is trying to address are not something you need help with. I think that is great.

Well, just be careful and think again before pulling out your credit card to pay him once again. And since you found at least some use to my last post, I'll expand one thought a bit.
You see, awhile ago I came to a discovery: the trading related psychological issues are not separate and unique to trading only, but are quite common in all other aspects of human lives. We just don't pay them as much attention when they do not seemingly cause so big of a problem (note I said "seemingly"). So I decided to study what is out there to help, and was pleasantly surprised at variety of different methods and techniques. (Even NLP stands for hundreds of different teachings) Unfortunately most of them unproven, created by people uneducated in the field and never seriously studied by anyone. Nevertheless I tried most of them and found that there is much truth in the Sedona method approach : in short the more energy and time you invest into fighting your emotion (doesn't matter which way you do it) the harder it gets. Such unskillful practitioners as this Kam are very dangerous not because they can harm us by their hypnosis or as you call it rewiring (just think about it, if it were true, you are allowing unlicensed unethical uneducated "doctor" to "rewire" your brains) -- thanks god they hardly can do what they claim. But by constantly keeping your problem at the center of your attention. Remember how hard it is not to think about a white bear? His approach even if delivered by a professional can not work and in some cases can bring a person to a complete devastation. Bret suggests some very dramatic experiences solve emotional problems, but there are easier ways. Ways that are studied and documented btw, help that is much cheaper if not free to obtain.
Now after reading and responding to my posts can you answer two questions:
1. Have you ever experienced trance when Kam was "hypnotizing" you? Do you know someone who has?
2. If you ever heard about how hypnosis works to help let's say with smoking, you probably know that you do not need to do your rewiring for six months. In most cases 1 hour is enough. NLP became successful because they claimed and in many cases achieved complete cure of very serious lifetime fobias in a matter of minutes. That is why they called it "Programing". Installing a new program doesn't take long. So the question is have you or anyone you know were successful in "rewiring" your brain yet?
If you answer to both questions "no", as I did awhile ago than you have no choice then to admit that you'd been lied to, that at least a part of your money was paid with no services provided in exchange. You were not "rewired" (and you should be thankful for that: it is always better to lose some money than to end up in a mental hospital) you were not hypnotized by Kam. Nobody ever was... You already know that all his meditations and other hocus-pocus-okay crap is nothing but a waste of time.
On the other hand if he lied about that, why would you expect him to be honest in anything else?
Remember I've mentioned Woodie. If you'll look carefully at his club, you'll find an interesting phenomena. All of his users are losing money, all of them have long ago noticed the obvious inconsistencies in the method, but not only they keep coming and losing, but they would furiously attack, as I said, anyone who would dare to ask a question doubting Woodies scriptures even a little bit. After a few years and a small fortune lost most of them will move on, but why not sooner, why are they waiting for a miracle to happen for months and years, knowing already that they are wasting their time?
The answer is simple: they invest so much effort and time into learning that method that due to a human nature they get married to it like we tend to get married with a losing trade. We filter out all contradictory data while keeping searching for bits and pieces confirming our decision and so on. You likely know the scenario. Al the time our subconsciousness is aware of the conflict with reality and that nagging feeling causes us to react violently when someone attempts to dissolve our illusions.
Six months is more than enough to get hooked this way. So why not make a reality check?

 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


AR01 View Post
I'm not certain what this means.

Certain patterns do not work on all timeframes. The H&S pattern just happened on the S&P500 daily chart. Go back and look at how the bear market started in 2008 and you will see a H&S pattern.

I have attached the S&P500 from this year. Will this hit the target? Only time will tell because the market will do what it will do. Have a plan, trade the plan, exit when the market structure doesn't follow your expectations.

Andrew

What that means Andrew is: that when your system gives you signals that lead to a loss in more than 50% of the time, you are no longer trading but investing. That's all. I'd rather use a coin

 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received

Shasha:


(1) I have not spent any significant time on the NLP/Meditation stuff which Kam markets. I will keep your thoughts in mind when I do.

(2) OTOH, almost all good traders I know, swear on coming into the zone; almost all including Dr. Brett recommend some form of meditation to come into focus.

FuturesTrader71 one of the most popular free coaches out there is a big proponent of Transcendental Meditation. He swears by it, and has explicitly recommended it multiple times. And you bet there is a huge amount of controversy related to TM.

Within my circle of friends and family, I know multiple people who have benefited significantly from spending at least a few minutes a day meditating. I for one reason have never have had the discipline to do it in a structured manner, but whenever I have attempted, it did make me feel better.


(3) It seems your beef with L2ST is focussed on there NLP/Meditation/Hypnosis stuff which (I agree) can be dangerous to the uninitiated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stepping back, I would view any coach along the following metrics:

1. Does have a solid technical system to trade in place? Are the setups easy to understand? Are they based on market generated information or hunches, predictions etc?

2. Does he provide a psychological framework to help you become comfortable with the risk and reward associated with trades; e.g. when to focus on risk, when to focus on maximizing profits, what technical information to look for to help you keep you in a trade, or force you to accept the losses and move on to the next setup?


3. Does he provide help in guidance to a person just starting out or an experienced trader facing discipline/focus issues, by providing an overall structure to open, run and expand a trading business? Does he realize and understand that there are multiple dimensions to running a trading business and addresses each of them?


I have found L2ST to address all the three issues quite well. Further their synthesis of all the aspects real-time as you trade live is quite unique.

cunparis said that he talks a lot; I agree. But I am in his room to hear him talk; not see the same chart as every one else is seeing. If I need to pay attention to a trade; I can mute it. But I would rather have him talking and having the choice to decide when to listen and when not to, instead of hoping that he will speak when I am ready to listen.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I noticed that you disagree with Dr. Brett about how negative emotions, can be used to drive change. I personally tend to agree with him, that fear is the most primal of all human instincts and CAN be best in forcing you to initiate and SUSTAIN the act of driving change.

When it comes to psychology each person is different, and will respond differently. I think you are very fortunate to have found out what works for you and what does not. That is great.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

With regards to L2ST, I think that your view is strong influenced by his talk about NLP etc. I will keep that in mind.

During my two weeks with them, they have not talked at all about scalping etc (which you found of no value at all), but have been focussed on market profile and order flow based trading on ES/DAX/YM. So far he has been right on and hitting almost 1.0.

Today he expected a range day but has warned about a possible extension back in the value area from Friday or an upward extension, especially later in the day. He warned that the rewards are going to be low with expected profits limited to 3-4 points. He also said that the foot-prints are not going to be very useful since by the time they confirm, you have already lost 20-30% of the expected move. People were able to milk the 1164-1160 range twice. Before signing off he said that after 2-3 tests, there is a much greater chance of the range breaking so be careful and focus on the order flow. He also said that on days like today markets like CL/YM/GC are perhaps better because the ranges are bigger. He talked about the correlation between GC/CL which is emerging...

I do not claim to be an MP expert but I have had very little to fault him on his technical reading of the market. He is posting his daily summary quite often on Youtube so you can get a chance to view it.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post
Shasha:


(1) I have not spent any significant time on the NLP/Meditation stuff which Kam markets. I will keep your thoughts in mind when I do.

(2) OTOH, almost all good traders I know, swear on coming into the zone; almost all including Dr. Brett recommend some form of meditation to come into focus.

FuturesTrader71 one of the most popular free coaches out there is a big proponent of Transcendental Meditation. He swears by it, and has explicitly recommended it multiple times. And you bet there is a huge amount of controversy related to TM.

Within my circle of friends and family, I know multiple people who have benefited significantly from spending at least a few minutes a day meditating. I for one reason have never have had the discipline to do it in a structured manner, but whenever I have attempted, it did make me feel better.


(3) It seems your beef with L2ST is focussed on there NLP/Meditation/Hypnosis stuff which (I agree) can be dangerous to the uninitiated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stepping back, I would view any coach along the following metrics:

1. Does have a solid technical system to trade in place? Are the setups easy to understand? Are they based on market generated information or hunches, predictions etc?

2. Does he provide a psychological framework to help you become comfortable with the risk and reward associated with trades; e.g. when to focus on risk, when to focus on maximizing profits, what technical information to look for to help you keep you in a trade, or force you to accept the losses and move on to the next setup?


3. Does he provide help in guidance to a person just starting out or an experienced trader facing discipline/focus issues, by providing an overall structure to open, run and expand a trading business? Does he realize and understand that there are multiple dimensions to running a trading business and addresses each of them?


I have found L2ST to address all the three issues quite well. Further their synthesis of all the aspects real-time as you trade live is quite unique.

cunparis said that he talks a lot; I agree. But I am in his room to hear him talk; not see the same chart as every one else is seeing. If I need to pay attention to a trade; I can mute it. But I would rather have him talking and having the choice to decide when to listen and when not to, instead of hoping that he will speak when I am ready to listen.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I noticed that you disagree with Dr. Brett about how negative emotions, can be used to drive change. I personally tend to agree with him, that fear is the most primal of all human instincts and CAN be best in forcing you to initiate and SUSTAIN the act of driving change.

When it comes to psychology each person is different, and will respond differently. I think you are very fortunate to have found out what works for you and what does not. That is great.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

With regards to L2ST, I think that your view is strong influenced by his talk about NLP etc. I will keep that in mind.

During my two weeks with them, they have not talked at all about scalping etc (which you found of no value at all), but have been focussed on market profile and order flow based trading on ES/DAX/YM. So far he has been right on and hitting almost 1.0.

Today he expected a range day but has warned about a possible extension back in the value area from Friday or an upward extension, especially later in the day. He warned that the rewards are going to be low with expected profits limited to 3-4 points. He also said that the foot-prints are not going to be very useful since by the time they confirm, you have already lost 20-30% of the expected move. People were able to milk the 1164-1160 range twice. Before signing off he said that after 2-3 tests, there is a much greater chance of the range breaking so be careful and focus on the order flow. He also said that on days like today markets like CL/YM/GC are perhaps better because the ranges are bigger. He talked about the correlation between GC/CL which is emerging...

I do not claim to be an MP expert but I have had very little to fault him on his technical reading of the market. He is posting his daily summary quite often on Youtube so you can get a chance to view it.

You are getting there, i can feel it, but let me help you just a bit more:
I do not reject neither Brett's bloody approach nor NLP/meditation. In fact I quit smoking in one day using NLP(that is after more than 20 years of habit) and never suffered even a second. And never paid a penny for it.
I am sure that Brett's method works and I consider him to be the best at the trade, but there are other less dramatic ways.
My "beef' with Kam is mostly because he is a lier, because he claims to be what he is not, because he charges money from desperate people for the services he can not possibly provide and that is fraud.
Now about your criteria for a decent trading teacher: you missed one important -- honesty! What you did not miss is all good, but ask yourself is there an acting trading room that does not meet easily all of these 3 qualities you mentioned? I can name you a few hundred just from memory... Woodie's club is clearly one of them, it is free and is definitely more trustworthy.
What is the purpose of being in the room? To pick up and exploit the signals without understanding how are they generated? Or to learn how to generate the signals and manage a trade? What is really worth paying for?
You mentioned FT71, he is good. there is Falcrum Trader, Discovery Group and many many other real traders, so look around

 
(login for full post details)
  #51 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
You are getting there, i can feel it, but let me help you just a bit more:
I do not reject neither Brett's bloody approach nor NLP/meditation. In fact I quit smoking in one day using NLP(that is after more than 20 years of habit) and never suffered even a second. And never paid a penny for it.
I am sure that Brett's method works and I consider him to be the best at the trade, but there are other less dramatic ways.
My "beef' with Kam is mostly because he is a lier, because he claims to be what he is not, because he charges money from desperate people for the services he can not possibly provide and that is fraud.
Now about your criteria for a decent trading teacher: you missed one important -- honesty! What you did not miss is all good, but ask yourself is there an acting trading room that does not meet easily all of these 3 qualities you mentioned? I can name you a few hundred just from memory... Woodie's club is clearly one of them, it is free and is definitely more trustworthy.
What is the purpose of being in the room? To pick up and exploit the signals without understanding how are they generated? Or to learn how to generate the signals and manage a trade? What is really worth paying for?
You mentioned FT71, he is good. there is Falcrum Trader, Discovery Group and many many other real traders, so look around

Shasha:

I have not any of his older videos as yet, but in the trading room, the focus is entirely on explaining how the signals are being generated. He talks in detail about what to look for in order flow to have confidence in the reversal (pre-trade action, post-trade action, follow through etc.), apart from of course the regions where MP suggests we are likely to see responsive activity.

They had an after-market seminar today (on the importance of having a business plan for your trading business) and there Brian did seem to mention that they are focusing primarily on MP based trades on a few set of instruments, and rarely do they talk about scalping any more. Kam has mentioned short term scalping software like FuturesScalper but that seems to be something on the side and not something they discuss. He also refers to CTI data once in a while; I think Kam gets it for the YM, and he tries to keep an eye on what the commercials are doing.

Perhaps they have adapted to the feedback they have received and instead of being the jack of all, are trying to focus on what they can understand and can teach better.

I have not been too many trading rooms so I do not have a lot of experience to fall back upon; however from the little I have seen, these guys are providing a structural framework for traders to develop. Though I have learnt a lot from FT71 etc., I do feel that purely from a technical basis, Kam has helped me refine the methodology into something which I am gradually feeling more confident in executing.

That is why I find your views a bit perplexing.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #52 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post
Perhaps they have adapted to the feedback they have received and instead of being the jack of all, are trying to focus on what they can understand and can teach better.

........

That is why I find your views a bit perplexing.

You are so perplexed simply because as some other people you don't mind being lied to. I love watching news and have noticed that in some countries apparently people are conditioned in a way that allows them to replace facts with believes, to have many contradicting "truths" at once, and generally accept any lie if it is convenient to them.
I'll give you a simple logical chain that should say all that is necessary to anyone who values common sense, thou I know that nothing in the world will convince you. I'll do that not for your sake but for the sake of others:
1. You seem to agree that L2ST, despite their claims, are incompetent in parts of what they used to teach people-- e.g. in NLP and scalping DOM (you stated that after the feedback they have reduced the spectrum of their educational program to "what they can understand").
2. L2ST used to sell for relatively big money courses on the subjects that by your own admission they know little about and certainly can not educate others. (Now, most people would stop right here and forget about paying a dime to such teachers, but lets go one more step)
3. What is left in their education that you find to be still of value will require paying for 6 months in a row without really being able to verify this education is worth anything. If you, in violation of L2ST recommendations, start to trade sooner than 6 months and lose all money -- you can not blame them, can you? Could they finish your "education" sooner? Yes, but it is less profitable for 2 reasons one is obvious and another is psychological - it is hard to accept that you were a sucker after wasting half a year of your life and a small fortune on B.S.. A lot of people will double down in such circumstances and will pay for "advanced" or "one-on-one" lessons. Sounds familiar?

So what do we have-- teachers that do not mind to defraud you by selling NLP hypnosis and force you to attend for six months before you are able to begin evaluating their approach.

You said that you keep trading despite their strong suggestion, so let me ask you again : please post your statement here so that we could see that you are truly making progress. It will not harm you in any way, so why do you keep avoiding this simple request.

P.S. I expected that after watching provided by me L2ST webinars and listening to their very funny meditation you would honestly describe those here for other users sake. But since it is unlikely to happen, I am offering everyone interested to watch and judge for themselves. Just PM me and I'll supply you with all of L2ST production

 
(login for full post details)
  #53 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
Y
1. You seem to agree that L2ST, despite their claims, are incompetent in parts of what they used to teach people-- e.g. in NLP and scalping DOM (you stated that after the feedback they have reduced the spectrum of their educational program to "what they can understand").

You are putting words in my mouth. I have no basis of judging how good or bad they are in NLP and DOM Scalping. All I said was that they are good at what they have focussed during the time I spent with them.



Quoting 

2. L2ST used to sell for relatively big money courses on the subjects that by your own admission they know little about and certainly can not educate others. (Now, most people would stop right here and forget about paying a dime to such teachers, but lets go one more step)

Again you are attributing words to me which I never said.


Quoting 

3. What is left in their education that you find to be still of value will require paying for 6 months in a row without really being able to verify this education is worth anything. If you, in violation of L2ST recommendations, start to trade sooner than 6 months and lose all money -- you can not blame them, can you? Could they finish your "education" sooner? Yes, but it is less profitable for 2 reasons one is obvious and another is psychological - it is hard to accept that you were a sucker after wasting half a year of your life and a small fortune on B.S.. A lot of people will double down in such circumstances and will pay for "advanced" or "one-on-one" lessons. Sounds familiar?

The six month waiting learning period suggestion, is for people who have already committed to the one year mentor-ship program. Again the time-period is a bit of an exaggeration; his point is that you HAVE to be confident in the setups you are going to take, and how you are going to manage them, before you start risking real money. Otherwise your growth as a trader may suffer. He feels that you are likely to be more successful if you have mastered the setups and trade management to a point where you do not hesitate to pull the trigger and do not panic at the first counter trend move.



Quoting 
So what do we have-- teachers that do not mind to defraud you by selling NLP hypnosis and force you to attend for six months before you are able to begin evaluating their approach.

You said that you keep trading despite their strong suggestion, so let me ask you again : please post your statement here so that we could see that you are truly making progress. It will not harm you in any way, so why do you keep avoiding this simple request.

What is your fascination with my PnL statement? FWIW, I have YET to take a SINGLE setup live. You might ask why? I am trying to understand his system and trade management better. Learning to fish as much as I can.

Since I have been in the room, his worst trade was one in which he "ONLY" reached his first profit target and scratched the rest for a few ticks. I would have no reason to complain PnL if I had blindly followed him.


Quoting 
P.S. I expected that after watching provided by me L2ST webinars and listening to their very funny meditation you would honestly describe those here for other users sake. But since it is unlikely to happen, I am offering everyone interested to watch and judge for themselves. Just PM me and I'll supply you with all of L2ST production


I haven't had the time to watch them so far. Busy with a bunch of things including taxes (finally done). However, everyone has a different perspective and background. Some might find his stuff elementary; others might find it very useful.

I briefly perused the slides and felt that the information contained there would be useful to a beginning to an intermediate trader. Of course if you have a lot of seat time, you would have been exposed to them already. However putting it all together in a structured manner does take some effort.

What I am liking about the room, especially Kam is the way he prepares, executes and manages trade. His approach to MP based trading is very well structured and captures the psychological challenges of trade management very well.

You truly must be a remarkable trader to find his stuff as rubbish. They have been in business for seven-eight years now; they must be doing something right. Everyone I have talked to has said that they learnt at least a few useful tricks from him; no one is so critical of him like you are.

The link below describes how he wants to run the room. He does try to keep a very positive focussed environment and interacts actively. I have yet to pose a question which has not been addressed.
https://www.l2st.co.uk/L2ST_LTR_ServiceOverview.pdf

I just found out a vendor selling a journaling spread-sheet. The structure presented in the spreadsheet is typical of Kam's methodological approach to the market.

https://trading-journal-spreadsheet.com/L2ST_Futures_Trading_Journal_Spreadsheet.aspx



Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #54 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received

Here is a quote from L2ST latest email announcing incoming webinar where Kam will try to sell pitnoise service in addition to his own NLP meditations. Just pay for it or you'll never get the "added EDGE":
"In this Webinar Kam Dhadwar of L2ST Traders Coaching will be showing you how to utilize the most powerful discretionary trading methods that help you get behind the mindset and way of thinking of the Commercial Market Participants. Understanding how the big players that move the market think, is the best way to stand the greatest chance of trading the best trading opportunities with greatest Reward potential. Kam will show you how to read the Market Participants every move with the greatest level of understanding through Auction Market Theory, Market Profile and unique Order Flow analysis techniques whilst using the S&P Pit Audio service within Tradethenews.com for and added EDGE."(I've highlighted some of the beautiful language, but honestly all of it is a masterpiece, EDGE is in original spelling)
OK, I've done my part here. If somebody still needs explaining and convincing -- he shouldn't have any money in the first place and Kam is a better owner for such money. At least he won't blow it trading.

 
(login for full post details)
  #55 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

I have not been following all the talk about Kam on here,
But I did just go to the L2ST - Trading Futures Online- Learn to trade futures online website.
For my two cents worth of opinion, this is way too expensive and a huge risk.
10 thousand pounds is an unnecessary outlay to one person.
There are other more reasonable offers out there.
Ron

The following user says Thank You to Ron Schnee for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #56 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Ron Schnee View Post
I have not been following all the talk about Kam on here,
But I did just go to the L2ST - Trading Futures Online- Learn to trade futures online website.
For my two cents worth of opinion, this is way too expensive and a huge risk.
10 thousand pounds is an unnecessary outlay to one person.
There are other more reasonable offers out there.
Ron

I will really appreciate if you could provide information about more reasonable mentor-ship programs out there.

I agree with you that the initial 10K GBP outlay is probably more than what most people can and want to afford. Though it is supposed to cover one year and includes all their other stuff (trading room, videos etc.), it is still a major upfront commitment.

Perhaps if you join a great prop-shop you will get access to the same kind of training and support. But I do not know much about how they are structured. There is very little information out there about prop-shops and how they structure their training and development of traders. There are of course a lot of warnings of prop-shop scam artists who also charge thousands while providing little.

FWIW, the L2ST program is quite comprehensive in structure in terms of addressing the technical, business, and psychological aspect of trading.


Sasha:

I have personally benefited from the 2-3 weeks I have spent in the room. Perhaps because I can relate to the issues he has raised in the room. At 200 GBP (actually 240 because of the VAT), it is not cheap. However like cunparis, I also believe that a few months in their room are definitely going to be worth the money.

Cross-Marketing your product with different vendors is not something unique. Kam refers to pit-noise and he likes to have it on because he feels it gives it some sense of how active/slow the market and the level of interest is. From whatever I know the pit these days are not representative of a lot since most of the trading has moved to screens and the pits represent very little. However, there are times when the pit has additional information which may not be evident to folks off the exchange.

All the marketing fluff aside, I unfortunately, have not seen evidence to suggest that the guy is a charlatan as you believe. I have seen go through all the stages of a trade very methodically (pre-trade plan, trade execution, and post-trade management) while addressing both the technical and psychological aspects of trading. Perhaps I have seen them in action during the time they are on a hot streak, but that is my perspective so far.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following user says Thank You to aviat72 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #57 (permalink)
 FulcrumTrader 
Austin, TX & Las Vegas, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Investor RT Pro, NT 7.0
Trading: ES, DAX, CL, 6E
 
FulcrumTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 230 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 32 given, 287 received


Sasha View Post
Kam is a proud "NLP (and all other new wave discipline's) certified practitioner" and will try to hypnotize you and cure all of your problems

I myself do not use NLP even though I have studied that method of potential psychological development. What I have studied that I did use frequently in the US Military and now in trading.......VISUALIZATION techniques.

Many very successful people who are involved with extremely critical operational environments use Visualization techniques. These techniques are used to build, hone, and then advance their constructive psychological capabilities/habits......which activates a very positive byproduct to destroy unconstructive psychological tendencies.

See who uses Visualization techniques........ Blue Angels Teamwork | FulcrumTrader

 
(login for full post details)
  #58 (permalink)
 Zondor 
Portland Oregon, United States
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader®
Broker: CQG, Kinetick
Trading: Gameplay Klownbine® Trading of Globex
 
Zondor's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,347 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 1,245 given, 2,721 received

An oldie but goodie The Disciplined Trader by Mark Douglas

Packed with insights, an amazing book.

Not an easy read but well worth the effort.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #59 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


FulcrumTrader View Post
I myself do not use NLP even though I have studied that method of potential psychological development. What I have studied that I did use frequently in the US Military and now in trading.......VISUALIZATION techniques.

Many very successful people who are involved with extremely critical operational environments use Visualization techniques. These techniques are used to build, hone, and then advance their constructive psychological capabilities/habits......which activates a very positive byproduct to destroy unconstructive psychological tendencies.

See who uses Visualization techniques........ Blue Angels Teamwork | FulcrumTrader

There are many different techniques, and many do work. VISUALIZATION definitely works well. I've found out that anything that works in sports -- will help in trading. The problem is often not with technique per se (if I've spelled it right my spell checker plays funny games so please forgive me), but with a "charlatan" presenting it.

P.S. I can recommend FulcrumTrader man here without hesitation. He is honest. And I've heard a lot of good things about his room, thou never participated myself.

The following user says Thank You to Sasha for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #60 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


Zondor View Post
An oldie but goodie The Disciplined Trader by Mark Douglas

Packed with insights, an amazing book.

Not an easy read but well worth the effort.

A few years ago I have experienced a trauma when lost a small fortune in one trade. After that I have noticed that my body responds in a very funny way to the risk of any open position. I could not continue trading while shaking so I was forced to look for an answer. Being perfectionist I studied quite a lot of different methods and techniques, and Mark Douglas's books were the very first stop.
It didn't work for me, so I moved on. I did concur my problem after all, mostly thanks to "Release technique", but now trading psychology became a hobby of mine so I always looking for new books and webinars etc. on the subject.
The latest webinar that impressed me was on MarketDelta last week by Andrew Menaker. He has a blog on his site PopDoc Trader and it is worth reading thru as well.
I am glad that pro's are attracted into the trading subfield and expect that it will keep improving.
On the other side of it there are smart traders that share their own stories that could be helpful: I listened to Linda Raschke's Christmas gift and realized for the first time that I am not crazy, that many if not all traders went thru similar experiences.

The following user says Thank You to Sasha for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #61 (permalink)
 aviat72 
San Francisco Bay Area
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT,TOS,IB
Trading: ES,CL,TF
 
Posts: 280 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 155 given, 271 received


Sasha View Post
A few years ago I have experienced a trauma when lost a small fortune in one trade. After that I have noticed that my body responds in a very funny way to the risk of any open position. I could not continue trading while shaking so I was forced to look for an answer. Being perfectionist I studied quite a lot of different methods and techniques, and Mark Douglas's books were the very first stop.
It didn't work for me, so I moved on. I did concur my problem after all, mostly thanks to "Release technique", but now trading psychology became a hobby of mine so I always looking for new books and webinars etc. on the subject.
The latest webinar that impressed me was on MarketDelta last week by Andrew Menaker. He has a blog on his site PopDoc Trader and it is worth reading thru as well.
I am glad that pro's are attracted into the trading subfield and expect that it will keep improving.
On the other side of it there are smart traders that share their own stories that could be helpful: I listened to Linda Raschke's Christmas gift and realized for the first time that I am not crazy, that many if not all traders went thru similar experiences.

Sasha:

That PopDoc video is on my to-do list.

Since you have had success with using some of these psychological techniques, could you suggest some more resources?

My preferred style of learning is an interactive/class room type of environment. During my student days, I used to be an active participant during classes; I hardly if ever opened books outside class. It is actually hard for me to read a book (non-fiction) end-to-end. That is why I am loving Dr. Brett's Trading Coach book since it is split into independent section which you can read at ease.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #62 (permalink)
 FulcrumTrader 
Austin, TX & Las Vegas, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Investor RT Pro, NT 7.0
Trading: ES, DAX, CL, 6E
 
FulcrumTrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 230 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 32 given, 287 received


Sasha View Post
There are many different techniques, and many do work. VISUALIZATION definitely works well. I've found out that anything that works in sports -- will help in trading. The problem is often not with technique per se (if I've spelled it right my spell checker plays funny games so please forgive me), but with a "charlatan" presenting it.

P.S. I can recommend FulcrumTrader man here without hesitation. He is honest. And I've heard a lot of good things about his room, thou never participated myself.

I first learned Visualization techniques in the U.S. Army when I was flying the AH-1S "Cobra" back in the 80's/90's.....since that time I have formalized my efforts and there has been very dynamic benefits. Psychology is HUGE in trading and this element HAST TO BE accounted for to have any success imo.

 
(login for full post details)
  #63 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


aviat72 View Post
Sasha:

That PopDoc video is on my to-do list.

Since you have had success with using some of these psychological techniques, could you suggest some more resources?

My preferred style of learning is an interactive/class room type of environment. During my student days, I used to be an active participant during classes; I hardly if ever opened books outside class. It is actually hard for me to read a book (non-fiction) end-to-end. That is why I am loving Dr. Brett's Trading Coach book since it is split into independent section which you can read at ease.

Trading coach is a nice book indeed, he is a pro, also he as well as Menaker will answer your email and go into lengths to help you understand. I picked up a few tricks from Dr. Brett and using them constantly as well as visualization.
My background is from physics, so you can imagine how far away I was from all that new age...
So I had to do some classification, and created a few categories:
Universal methods(e.g. visualization) v. groups of many narrow specialized tricks(Dr.Brett, Van Tharp);
Pro's in psychology v. pro's in trading;
and so on. In the process I have discovered that the most important distinction lies between to opposing ways of delivering relief, and it doesn't really matter if the method belongs to a new age discipline such as NLP or traditional psychology:
one method is delivered in a way similar to AA steps program. Such approach is usually forceful, dramatic, painful. It could be effective but takes a lot of time, puts you under constant pressure so that if you do not relapse -- you'll likely damage some other aspect of your mind while trying fix existing problem.
I prefer easy and effortless release technique as I mentioned already. They work faster, painless and in my experience way more effective. They are also universal and can be applied to any aspect of your live.
There are 2 practitioners that continue the work of their teacher Lester Levenson. One is Hale Dwoskin and another Larry Crane. Both have cd's and dvd's, just look up Sedona method. Try it and you'll know what you've been missing. It sounds simplistic and naive when you first learn the concept but it works and is very rational when you think about it.

The following 2 users say Thank You to Sasha for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #64 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010


aviat72 View Post
I will really appreciate if you could provide information about more reasonable mentor-ship programs out there.

Signal Trading - Live Daytrading Futures Forex Room $299.00 / month for live trading room / live training room, personal training and mentoring, they have a 90 day live training program to become a profitable and knowledgable day trader. They work on Ninjatrader

nothing wicked or spacey, just plain technical analysis, focused on becoming a profitable day trader who trades for living

I have no commercial interest with them, I'm just a happy user of their service answering your question :-)

 
(login for full post details)
  #65 (permalink)
 Ron Schnee 
Fort McMurray, AB, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT8 EOD,
Broker: QT
Trading: currencies, indexes, CL
 
Posts: 18 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 8 received

I will really appreciate if you could provide information about more reasonable mentor-ship programs out there.

I agree with you that the initial 10K GBP outlay is probably more than what most people can and want to afford. Though it is supposed to cover one year and includes all their other stuff (trading room, videos etc.), it is still a major upfront commitment.

Hi Aviat72
This thread has several other references to teacher/training worth checking out.

Some additional...
If you can stand fast scalping using tick charts and market delta ladder use, check out FuturesFX method. Simon trades in front of you every morning. Room cost is very fair.
If you are a larger account and want some slower action with a well-controlled risk using MP check out Alexander Trading. Don, Harris and Ben. They have begun a record of trading done in the room which is open all day with lots of commentary.
MarketBalence is also MP. Frank. He works with and endorses Watt Trading Group. Both very reasonable costs as is Huddy (Channel Trading) and Top Dog (Barry). No BS Trading will fill you in on watching pure price movement.
Gail Mercer (Traders Help Desk) has a free daily (ornings) trade room. She sells some training services and Indies but is low key with it. She likes the 6E instrument on 3 minutes and shows good money management and likes to teach.

Yes, too much of an upfront committment.
Methods vary and I find some just will not click with me. This is one strong reason not to drop a large amount (2000+) with one person.
Ron

The following 3 users say Thank You to Ron Schnee for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #66 (permalink)
 Tradetronics 
Austria
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, X-Trader
 
Posts: 40 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 54 given, 25 received

I don't think Watts Trading is that good... They teach you a setup in NQ and ES, which is based on technical indcators. I think that any daytrading requires the observation of the flow... Otherwise, it is not complete.

 
(login for full post details)
  #67 (permalink)
ArnieM
Fort Morgan, Colorado, USA
 
 
Posts: 17 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received

I don't believe that trading courses can teach me something. I rather look around in the forums.

 
(login for full post details)
  #68 (permalink)
 jitasb 
London, England
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, Kinetic
Trading: Stocks
 
Posts: 513 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 22 given, 226 received

Anyone come across OCMCapital ? Would welcome some views if you have used them.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #69 (permalink)
 kamd 
london
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: marketdelta
Trading: DAX
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 4 received

Hi Aviat72,

You have a much better understanding of what we do and who we are at L2ST than Sasha. As you have actually experienced our training in the trading room, where it counts most, in a live market. Actually I do not know who sasha is. The only Sasha I remember I received a very nasty email from (actually the only nasty email I have ever received from anyone, in my 7 years in trader coaching!), who mistakenly thought I was some other educator with website that had a similar named website to our blog. I explained that was not me and we only had a blog called inthetradingzone.com. Anyway, after some nasty email abuse by this Sasha, I banned any access from ever signing up to our products or trading room. Although I do not know for sure, this may be the same Sasha, and would explain why he is so angry and has Beef with me and L2ST. I could n't think of any other reason, as you should be aware from our work that there is very little in what we do in our seminar/trading room that has ANYTHING to do with scalping and NLP. Pretty funny really, how someone that knows nothing about us could have such strong views! Truly amazing claims, of knowing more about me and L2ST than my clients and myself. I work with multi million to billion dollar Hedge Funds as well as Proprietary Trading Firms in the US and UK, who are very strict on Due Diligence before they employ training for their traders. Do you really think that they would have any faith in our work if it was not proven, and we didn't have some sort of track record, in our own trading and also in helping improve traders performances.

I can confirm the reason why Sasha will not understand your views. Why? It's because he has NEVER EVER been an L2ST trading Room member, and actually we have no record of him purchasing any of our training material, so I would be interested to know where he obtained his copy of our seminar? is it a legal copy? If he has such a strong feeling that I am a lier and that everything we teach is BS, then why not let us know, so that I could refund his purchase. Shasha, Provide me a copy of your receipt of purchase and i will refund whatever you have purchased quite happily. You clearly missed the points.

This talk about Dom scaling and NLP, is Ridiculous BS. The DOM scalping webinar a short freebie webinar for our room members only. It was not meant to be a mastery class, and I even explained although its useful you would not trade it alone. Anyway, it was FREE! so even if he thought it was rubbish, just throw it in the bin, it didn't cost anything anyway. The concepts clearly worked as every trade taken within that webinar with the platform (DOM)! were profitable in a matter of seconds. Yes, it's simple, but it works! The idea was to share some basic concepts that Proprietary Traders that i have traded with and still trade with use, as well as highlight the spoofing games that take place and how not be sucked into them. And actually we use VERY LITTLE DOM analysis in our trading if any, and I clearly explain why that is and if you had ever been an L2ST Trading Room member you would know that. Unless you are a scalper, its not worth focusing on too much.

Also, I do not advise Scalping as you know, our training has ALWAYS been about picking less trades of larger time frames, with better risk to reward,by understanding Auction Market Theory, through the use of Market Profile and MarketDelta Order Flow Analysis. 1-2 decent trades is usually what i go for and as a room member you know that.

Also those who ACTUALLY KNOW, would be aware that although I am a certified NLP practitioner, I do not use many NLP techniques myself. I have understood how the Mind Works better through learning NLP and the influence of the Unconscious Mind, so if something does work we understand why it did work for that individual. Also, I have never made claims of being a hypnotherpist and hypnotising anyone. I never do and never would do that. If you want Hypnosis you go to a Hypno-therapist. L2ST quite simply are traders that teach people how to understand the markets and trade them better. We explain that the path to consistent profits is a clearly defined business plan, trading plan, pre-market analysis with preparation and a solid understanding of the markets and its participants. Yes you will have psychological issues to deal with along the way, but if you follow the learning and trading process in the right way, with the right support, some very simple and logical techniques will help you move onto the next trade and next day without any mumbo jumbo magic. All you need is a common sense, structured and logical approach with Discipline. When you struggle with discipline, you get help from whichever professional you feel that you can trust. Traders like to work with L2ST because we are professional traders that understand what a trader goes through very well, that's all. We are traders teaching traders in what we feel is the right approach. Not magic sorcerers! We do not utilise any specific techniques in our Peak Performance training, and are very simplistic and we only employ them with 1on1 Mentorship students and professional trading clients (prop and hedge funds) that need help moving to the next level. A lot of we use is from the years of experience of working with Professional Traders and understanding what works, Its what we call Peak Performance Coaching. There is n't much too it, and anyone one our mentor-ship programmes who have been through the process, would understand that there is no mumbo jumbo voodoo magic, here its a simple logical structured approach to learning how to trade whilst improving your understanding of yourself and the markets. Simple techniques, that help you ACCEPT what is, keep you in the present moment and the NOW, as well as help you release and let go of anything that takes you away from being fully engaged in your trading is all that you need.

In the early phases for a trader the focus should always be to trade to build:

1> Good Trading Habits.
2> Discipline.
3> Belief and Confidence - in a) The Trading Method, b) Your ability to trade that method, c) Yourself in general.
4> More Trading Experience, especially with Execution and Trade Management.
5> Practice Excellent Money`Risk Management.

This should always be without too much emotional attachment to the result of each individual trade. When emotional trading takes you away from the above, you have to know what has caused the issue, and how you can move on with a positive outlook, and a greater chance of success. You CANNOT ignore the issues that arise emotionally, as repression of negative emotions is what quite often will destroy a traders career. You cannot eliminate the emotions, as humans we are emotional beings, however there are some very simple practical techniques for lessing the effects of negative states and emotions on our behaviours, through Acceptance of what is and learning to let go. Find the ones that work for you personally. There is no magic technique, just the ones that work for YOU. Simple meditation and letting go techniques work well, with continuous practice, and thats all you really need.

Personally I find that being balanced emotionally, physically, mentally and spiritually is good practice for traders. It keeps you in Peak Performance States and therefore you stand better chances of success. Simple things like Diet & Physical Health effect us mentally and emotionally more than most would think.

Please do not expect someone who has made no commitment to learn and understand another, to provide you any useful or valid advise. Its pure anger and hate. Just check out Sasha's posts all over the forum. it doesn't take long to work out that this is a negative individual that has nothing better to do that share that negativity with others. Haters like sasha really do make it painful for genuine people to help like minded people.

You have seen in earlier posts where he put words in your mouth and claimed that you said this, this and that. Well it appears that most of the claims that he has made that i have claimed, i never have and never would. You being a student would know that. He has never been a student so how would he know? It's mind boggling how someone can claim to know so much about you and everything else, when he has very little knowledge and understanding. I mean making claims about performance etc is ridiculous too. We trade live many times in our trading for extensive periods and recorded the performance and shared with all room members. Again, if Sasha was a room member he would have known and seen this. Pretty funny how someone claims that you are lier when the proof is shared for all to see.


Keep up the good work Aviat72. Hopefully you can make your own decision in deciding what makes sense and what is right for you and what is not.

Warm regards

Kam



aviat72 View Post
Shasha:

I have not any of his older videos as yet, but in the trading room, the focus is entirely on explaining how the signals are being generated. He talks in detail about what to look for in order flow to have confidence in the reversal (pre-trade action, post-trade action, follow through etc.), apart from of course the regions where MP suggests we are likely to see responsive activity.

They had an after-market seminar today (on the importance of having a business plan for your trading business) and there Brian did seem to mention that they are focusing primarily on MP based trades on a few set of instruments, and rarely do they talk about scalping any more. Kam has mentioned short term scalping software like FuturesScalper but that seems to be something on the side and not something they discuss. He also refers to CTI data once in a while; I think Kam gets it for the YM, and he tries to keep an eye on what the commercials are doing.

Perhaps they have adapted to the feedback they have received and instead of being the jack of all, are trying to focus on what they can understand and can teach better.

I have not been too many trading rooms so I do not have a lot of experience to fall back upon; however from the little I have seen, these guys are providing a structural framework for traders to develop. Though I have learnt a lot from FT71 etc., I do feel that purely from a technical basis, Kam has helped me refine the methodology into something which I am gradually feeling more confident in executing.

That is why I find your views a bit perplexing.


The following user says Thank You to kamd for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #70 (permalink)
 kamd 
london
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: marketdelta
Trading: DAX
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 4 received

Ron,

Just to clarify that, the 10k mentorship is the most premium product from L2ST for independent and professional traders, its a full 1 year programme that requires a lot of personal time, hard work and dedication with weekly meetings for performance tracking review, feedback and Peak Performance Coaching. Its a fully structured process, that mostly professional traders (Proprietary and Hedge Fund Traders) and at times the independent trader too. However, one person may think 10k is cheap another may think its expensive, it really depends on the individual. To make this more affordable for other independent trading clients L2ST decided to run Group Mentorship (10 Students), that started this september 2010. Its a very similar structure for around £2500. Its a very comprehensive programme, and is already full for the next year or so. The number of students is limited, so that a quality mentorship standard can be maintained. I would be interested to know what else if anything else that is similar out there, that can offer the value of this mentorship. To be honest if you can find anyone offer anything like this programme for much cheaper, go for it. L2ST just want to help traders, and if you feel that you are better off with a deal from another firm, that makes more sense and is more attractive, go for it. A lot of material is available FREE via the L2ST website and our blog. If any one is not prepared to pay for training there is a quite a lot of free stuff out there that can help provide at least some good advice and information to guide you in the right direction. You have to remember that, Training seminars/webinars and Live trading Rooms are very different education, whilst a Coaching and Mentorships are completely different.

Trading experience will always count for more than anything else in this business, Quiet simply, your best coach will ALWAYS be the market. So anyone that can do it alone without the help of 3rd party education, should do so. It just makes sense, if you do not need education, then DO NOT pay for it. However for those that need guidance and advise find a mentor/coach that you can be accountable to and that will help you through any struggles that may arise. As traders you need to be willing to take risks whilst trading and comparing the Risk to Reward, similarly when investing in your education you should work out your potential ROI (Return On Investment) after the completion of a training Programme. If you clearly understand the benefits of a training/education programme and understand that it could potentially save you a lot of time (our most valuable resource) as well as money in the long term, it makes sense. However obviously if you feel that the training education is not worthwhile, then it does n't make sense to invest. Common sense really. If any education appears to be overpriced for you just contact the training company, and ask to help setup a payment plan.

If a trader cannot afford education, they probably cannot afford to trade. Depending on the amount of capital a traders is trading, you can quite easily lose the cost of quality education in 1 day trading if you are unprepared and uneducated. Most clients that would invest in a 1on1 mentorship for 10K, will be the type of client that understands that that is not a lot of money in todays markets, and could be the risk of 1 trade. up to a month or so trading.

There is a lot of education available so, be selective and have a budget (as outlined in your business plan for education) and find someone that you can relate to and trust. Personally I always budget at least 10k for investment in education in my yearly business plans, this is usually for self development, which is a continuous process. Others will always have opinions of what they feel is right or wrong, however you must remember that you may not necessarily agree.

The following user says Thank You to kamd for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #71 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,042 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 854 given, 7,910 received


Slipknot511 View Post
...
That being said, I think there are a few guidelines that warrant a big "Caution" from a trading course, book, video or whatever:

1) Promises of easy riches. This is a lie. PERIOD! I hit delete the instant I see the words "Secrets", "riches", "easy" or if there are pictures of bikini babes, beaches and exotic cars. All I can say is, "Run Forest, RUN!"
...
There are signs that a seller or educator might be legitimate:
1) The exact opposite of all the things above. They stress how difficult trading is and that it is anything but a path to easy riches. (At his CBOT webinars, Mark Fisher often says that trading is the second most difficult job in the world after President of the USA".) He may be right.
2) A strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology. Experienced traders know that Psychology and money management (risk management) are 90% or more of the game and methodology makes up the small balance.
3) A lack of selling pressure. I have only one educational resource that I spend money on regularly. I have NEVER been solicited by this person. He has NEVER urged me to buy his book or subscribe to his daily commentary. This trader only even has a live commentary because a group of us literally begged him to do so. To be blunt, he is not a good author or educator, but is the best damn trader I know of.
4) In my 7 years of experience in this industry, i can honestly say the best resources are usually free. These can be web resources like futures.io (formerly BMT). The exchanges are an excellent source of free education.
....

Lastly: NEVER, never, never, never ever give up! Winners all have one common trait: The absolute refusal to accept failure. At the risk of revealing my inner nerd, I quote Yoda, "Do, or do not. There is no try.".

well said but always there is an exception;
this guru does promise of easy riches, six figures in first year, 3 X daily range
not much emphasis on psychology and money management but strong emphasis on making notes,daily review, getting on the right side of market and run if you see red. It turns out six figures and 3X is a hook so that you can hang on for the duration. I totally agree 'the best resources are free' he didn't ask for a dime just paying forward.

The following 2 users say Thank You to cory for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #72 (permalink)
 kamd 
london
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: marketdelta
Trading: DAX
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 4 received

Very Well said indeed Slipknot. The words of someone that clearly understands what is important. Excellent :-)


Slipknot511 View Post
I have gone through dozens, if not a hundred, books & courses. My gut instinct is to say that 99.9% are a waste of time and money, yet I'm sure I gleaned at least one valuable concept form most of them. Who's to say that one nugget was not worth the price paid? It's extremely difficult to attribute value to courses and books. I think this is because just as every trader is uniquely different & the methodology that will work for them is unique, so too are the resources that will help them achieve their goals.

The paradox of trading resources is that it is difficult at best to know in advance if a particular course or book will benefit you. There are items mentions highly in this thread that I think are garbage. And there are also materials mentioned as useless that I think had some value for me. The other posters and myself are probably both correct in our opinions.
That being said, I think there are a few guidelines that warrant a big "Caution" from a trading course, book, video or whatever:
1) Promises of easy riches. This is a lie. PERIOD! I hit delete the instant I see the words "Secrets", "riches", "easy" or if there are pictures of bikini babes, beaches and exotic cars. All I can say is, "Run Forest, RUN!"
2) Subscriptions or recurring fees as opposed to selling a product outright. This approach is usually designed for one purpose: To generate cashflow. There are exceptions though.
3) Be cautious of the advice given on the myriad of internet forums. Most of these consist of losers looking to other losers for direction or affirmation. There are a few successful traders who frequent these, but they are few and far between.

Be aware that there is a huge industry that makes a fortune on marketing and cross-marketing trading related goods and services. I'm very leery of ads or spam of so-called traders informing us about their "buddy" over at company XYZ who has cracked the code of the markets. Over the years, I regularly see the same names popping up again and again selling a new system every year or two. Often these sellers are a shill for each other. Buyer beware.

There are signs that a seller or educator might be legitimate:
1) The exact opposite of all the things above. They stress how difficult trading is and that it is anything but a path to easy riches. (At his CBOT webinars, Mark Fisher often says that trading is the second most difficult job in the world after President of the USA".) He may be right.
2) A strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology. Experienced traders know that Psychology and money management (risk management) are 90% or more of the game and methodology makes up the small balance.
3) A lack of selling pressure. I have only one educational resource that I spend money on regularly. I have NEVER been solicited by this person. He has NEVER urged me to buy his book or subscribe to his daily commentary. This trader only even has a live commentary because a group of us literally begged him to do so. To be blunt, he is not a good author or educator, but is the best damn trader I know of.
4) In my 7 years of experience in this industry, i can honestly say the best resources are usually free. These can be web resources like futures.io (formerly BMT). The exchanges are an excellent source of free education.
5) Just because someone charges, does not make them a huckster. Successful traders and good educators know that charging for their services keeps the dreamers and hecklers from monopolizing their time. It assures those they devote their time to are willing to invest in their education.
6) There is absolutely no correlation between price and value... whatsoever!

Many won't want to hear this, but the spot forex market is a breeding ground for sharks. It was made available to the public for one reason: to separate you from your money, not because anyone felt the need to create a new income opportunity for us. The lure of this market is an appeal to item number 1 above - The desire for easy riches. Yes, it is possible to make good money trading retail forex... but VERY FEW do.
Likewise for the exchange traded instruments. Do we honestly think the e-mini was created because the exchange felt sorry for the general public and wished for us to get a slice of the pie also? The pit traders call us "paper", the electronic professionals have a name for us also: "Liquidity". You are on their playground, playing with their ball by their rules. If you can't recognize & accept this, then you have already lost. You need to answer one question: "What have you got going for you that they don't?". Find the answer and you find success.

Lastly: NEVER, never, never, never ever give up! Winners all have one common trait: The absolute refusal to accept failure. At the risk of revealing my inner nerd, I quote Yoda, "Do, or do not. There is no try.".


 
(login for full post details)
  #73 (permalink)
 Tradetronics 
Austria
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, X-Trader
 
Posts: 40 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 54 given, 25 received

Hi Kam,

I appreciate that you have joined futures.io (formerly BMT). There has been some talk about you as you have noticed. I have two questions:

1. Can those who join your trading room take your trades and see your DOM? Is it easy to replicate your trades?

2. Do you use the DOM itself for trading/scalping? If yes, do you look for patterns within the DOM in addition to Delta?

Thanks a lot!

Regards,
TT

 
(login for full post details)
  #74 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,468 given, 98,276 received

Moderator Notice
Moderator Notice


We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal
 
(login for full post details)
  #75 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received

Now guys you see what I was talking about. There is a certified NLP practitioner among us which nevertheless does not use many NLP techniques himself. That is what we call Peak Performance Coaching. If you watched a free DOM "scaling" 3 hour short freebie you know that it works but if it does not and you've lost your account trying to replicate it -- hey it is a freebie just throw it away!
And do you know the secret to success of the hedge fund's traders? Do you know why they make a lot of money trading? That is simple -- their secret is 1 on 1 coaching they regularly receive from kamd

I do not have to add anything else here, do I?
P.S. My only motivation is to prevent a con artist from taking advantage of confused fellow traders. Sasha is not my full name and even more -- it is not my name outside of this forum, and how one can make a different conclusion if he is not on drugs avoids my comprehension

 
(login for full post details)
  #76 (permalink)
 kamd 
london
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: marketdelta
Trading: DAX
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 4 received

TT, I have PM'd you, as advised by Big Mike. Thanks.


Tradetronics View Post
Hi Kam,

I appreciate that you have joined futures.io (formerly BMT). There has been some talk about you as you have noticed. I have two questions:

1. Can those who join your trading room take your trades and see your DOM? Is it easy to replicate your trades?

2. Do you use the DOM itself for trading/scalping? If yes, do you look for patterns within the DOM in addition to Delta?

Thanks a lot!

Regards,
TT


The following user says Thank You to kamd for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #77 (permalink)
 anniebee321 
london
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: ninja
Trading: fgbl
 
Posts: 152 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 64 given, 44 received

personally - and with hindsight i would not go on any course - you always get alot
less than what you pay for and in many instances nada, i would use the reading list
supplied on this forum - your risk then is minimal

The following user says Thank You to anniebee321 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #78 (permalink)
Red Toucan
Sussex, England
 
 
Posts: 1 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

"Sasha",

I am not sure whether you have read this forum's rules ( I have) but having read through your posts it would seem as if your comments concerning Kam at L2ST certainly directly contradict them and, in my view, border on the defamatory. What exactly is your personal experience with him and his firm? I have to say that as a born sceptic my personal experience has been consistently positive over the last year and I have found him and Brian to be genuine, honest and truthful - and remarkably open and generous to boot. I have no axe to grind - I have no connection with the firm of either Brian or Kam except as a demanding but satisfied customer - but wanted to set my experience down for the record as describing Kam as a con artist is really outrageous and I'd suggest you are more careful with such defamatory remarks.

regards

Red Toucan

 
(login for full post details)
  #79 (permalink)
Sasha
Reno, NV
 
 
Posts: 30 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 9 received


Red Toucan View Post
"Sasha",

I am not sure whether you have read this forum's rules ( I have) but having read through your posts it would seem as if your comments concerning Kam at L2ST certainly directly contradict them and, in my view, border on the defamatory. What exactly is your personal experience with him and his firm? I have to say that as a born sceptic my personal experience has been consistently positive over the last year and I have found him and Brian to be genuine, honest and truthful - and remarkably open and generous to boot. I have no axe to grind - I have no connection with the firm of either Brian or Kam except as a demanding but satisfied customer - but wanted to set my experience down for the record as describing Kam as a con artist is really outrageous and I'd suggest you are more careful with such defamatory remarks.

regards

Red Toucan

Thank you a very new member from England for another opportunity to explain why my opinions about L2ST do not contradict the forum rules. This forum is created primarily to help traders in their difficult lonely endeavor and not to promote vendors. The fact that kamd has chosen to become a member doesn't protect him from being criticized as a dishonest vendor. He is still a vendor, isn't he?
I can see that you have not read my posts carefully enough to realize that I have no relationships with kamd and my personal experiences are limited to watching his mambo jumbo lessons and reading his claims right here. Hasn't he claimed right here that he coaches hedge funds and prop traders? Is that true? If not what do you think is the purpose of such a lie? When I first read such claim I couldn't help but felt that kamd was such a prominent teacher that I should definitely pay for his lessons: if big hedge fund traders do it, it must be worth it! Than I realized that all I have to confirm this claim is kamd's words.
Another thing is the service that is provided for the money. I will paraphrase here, but as FT71 explained his reasons to start a trading blog: he was tired of watching six-graders teaching fifth-graders math and charging thousands for the lessons. You see I know that Larry Williams is a successful trader, I can see that John Grady is making money trading cause he displays his statement right on his website. All that I've seen from kamd so far is sim trading. How do we know if the service he is providing is worth the money? How do we even know that he is a trader himself? That is easy to show, isn't it?
So, luckily for us here we are not discussing religion, but something provable and factual. Good lessons should bring positive measurable results At least with some students. Or the money is wasted on a con-artist. That is my honest opinion, but
I will give you my word to apologize for my somewhat direct opinions in case 2 things happen:

a) you as a "satisfied customer" (or kamd himself at least as a teacher) should be able to demonstrate why are you satisfied by showing us consistent profits on your account statements for a few months. You can mask the private information, all we are looking for are the numbers.
Any other student's of his statements will suffice btw;

b) kamd provides prove that he has more than 1 student among big hedge funds traders;

I am sorry but your words are not enough. I don't even know you, how can I trust you to trust somebody claiming to have students among guys like yourself and hedge fund traders (in the same room I assume)?
Just think about it for a second, could that be true? That kamd is coaching billioneers how to trade? In the same trading room with us, hundreneers? Or maybe they, billioneers, hire him to experience his art of certifiable NLP specialist? That is more likely now, since the death of Ari Kiev. There must be shortage in the trading psychology field, so every one with such credentials is sought by the hedge fund traders.

 
(login for full post details)
  #80 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,468 given, 98,276 received

Moderator Notice
Moderator Notice


We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/

Visit other sites? Please spread the word about your experience with our community!
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal
The following 3 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:

Closed Thread

futures io Trading Community Trading Reviews and Vendors > What Training courses you have please give me your review


Last Updated on December 1, 2010


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing
 

Journal Challenge w/$1,800 in prizes!

April
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts