$449 for bars and you pay $50 non-refundable for the right to try them. Now that's chutzpah. Be advised the UltimateRenko bars he's peddling are white label from PureLogik and these are virtually the same ones you can purchase from Rjay at a better price. The UltimateTick may also be from another developer--of this I have no knowledge and nor do I care. Holy Grail bars....yeah right.
Rob Mitchell has a colorful if not checkered history in the trading community. His first claim to fame was a prediction service which made calls where the ES was going to trade days in advance. A bit like using a crystal ball or Oiuja board. His second act was an ES autotrader called Gina, which like so many promising expert systems, started out hot (with a 12 point stop) and then melted into neverland just as he started putting on a full court marketing press. Funny how Mr. Market deals with trader's hubris.
The moral of the story never changes. There are those who trade and that is their sole source of income. They don't need the gratification to teach, sell indicators, kill time, be a part of a community, or consult newbees for outrageous fees to augment that income. They love the leisure time trading provides to them and their families. They are known as "professional" traders. (By the way, they are not one and two contract traders. They trade size and lease seats from the exchange to reduce trading costs.)
And then there are all the rest who fail at trading but want to live off the backs of aspiring or unsuccessful traders. Mr. Mitchell is in this camp, despite his self-serving history posted on the website.
Like that statement. I'm starting to hear increasing barrages of radio ads from dubious trading schools and gurus promising extra income, or quit your job soon. These organizations must have multi-state marketing arms. Now they are latching on to what the old MLM ads used to do with their late nite radio ads.
The following user says Thank You to Cloudy for this post:
Any way of looking at the market (indicator) can work, with the right perspective, risk management, and psychology.
No way of looking at the market (indicator) works without deeper context and understanding.
If it speaks to you and tells you something you want to know, if what you want to now comes from experience without that indicator, and if you can see that the benefit of the indicator justifies the cost... If you can work the math, the question will answer itself. If you can't, it is no better than the hundreds of things that are available for free.
NO indicator will make someone a trader. I'll bet you.
Like with anything, bars are just a tool and you have to use the right tool for the job. There are no magical bars that are best suited to achieve everyone's goals and will suite everyone's method and trading style, it just doesn't work that way. Before you pay money for something you should consider if it is the right tool to achieve your goals. To do that, 1) You have to have specific goals, 2) you have to have a fundamental understanding of how the tool works, 3) you have to spend quality time evaluating whether it is in fact the best tool to achieve your goals. I can tell you that I've programmed half a dozen bars with specific goals in mind and I don't use most of them for lack of fulfilling step 3.
If you are randomly purchasing things because some vendor says they are the best ever, then are you most likely wasting your money. I would be especially wary of any vendor that does not provide a free evaluation period or charges the full amount up front with a promise to refund your money if you are not fully satisfied. Good luck with that.
Edit: To clarify, this post wasn't specifically in response to the OP, just a general soap box post to purchasing from vendors in general,
The following 3 users say Thank You to vegasfoster for this post:
Although I find his UTB bars interesting for theoretical reasons, I'm hesitant to try them because you have to beg for money returned if not satisfied and you're hit for a $50 fee for the privilege of trying them out. This is a big red flag for me. A few vendors do offer an entirely free trial sometimes of only a week but that's ok with me if it's back testable.
The following user says Thank You to topsteprs for this post:
I have a better idea for @datahogg. Save yourself the time of evaluating something that is no better than anything you can test for free and just send me the $50. I'll take my wife out to dinner and post pictures here so you can see how much we both appreciated your contribution to our date night.
funny...wonder if i can make money like this. you know if you all contributed $10 to me I'd be very glad to post pictures of everything Betsy and I did with the money. You all would be able to live vicariously through us. Wow what an idea!
Hmm...guess I should start my own thread instead of hijacking your's. Sorry.
The following user says Thank You to MWinfrey for this post:
So here I was thinking that you guys were all being really negative about a product that you haven't even tried, so I decided to go ahead and buy the thing and write a review myself. Here's what I think so far; the company that sells them is slow. I completed my purchase yesterday after the close, chased them this morning, was able to download and install the bars, but they haven't been activated yet. I've been told that the guys that activate them might be traveling and "in the air"... So I've spent $500.00 and I have jack. I'll post again with my opinion of the bars if I ever receive them.
Using the word "company" to describe this vendor's business is a bit generous. More like one man working from his flat. He may be employing a third party to setup the licensing for your machine through software from Ninja.
Looking forward to hearing what you think of the product (I'm confident you get it activated). Mr. Mitchell may be many things, but an outright thief isn't one of them.
I did, indeed, get the bars activated late in the day on Friday. At first glance they look different from anything I've ever used before. The market is closed now, and I don't feel like playing with a replay, so any further analysis will have to wait until Monday. I will report back when I have more information.
It would be interesting to see an comparison tick chart with CandleVolStyle2 applied. I´m curious if there is any difference.
Maybe you can post two charts to see if and how the difference looks.
Ok, never mind, I found the Candle Style and installed it. I'll play around with chart resolutions to see if I can get something to line up. The resolution between the UTB's and standard Tick Bars is not 1:1, there are far fewer bars with the UTBs... Let me play around with this and I'll hit you back.
Ok so here's a 233 Tick UTB using the CandleVolStyle2 along with 233 Tick UTB with Heiken Ashi V4 (Thanks Fat Tails - I love it)... There's also MT Predictor, PriceActionSwing, ADXVMA, PLA Dynamical, and Crable Range Projections all over the HA chart but why not, it's what I look at so why shouldn't you get to see it. ;-)
Both charts are for CL-08 Friday 28/06/2013 and the Sunday night session (so far). I was previously using a 1597 Tick chart to obtain this kind of resolution but 233 ticks on the UTB seems to be just about right.
What I can say about the UTB's, so far, and I've only seen two bars print real time, is that they do seem to show the trend very well. We opened about where we went out on Friday and ticked up to 96.59, the UTB gave me a long wick moving up, not new bars, and when price started to come off, the supplied "Tick Counter" indicator went negative just as the sellers initiated. Clearly I had other reasons to be bearish about this session, but the UTB's confirmed it.
I should add, at this point, that I am not affiliated with Rob Mitchell in any way. I'm a trader, just like you, trying to improve my edge through whatever means possible. I only started dealing with him when I purchased the bars, and since other's have seen fit to criticize him I will say that my dealings with him have been very good. When there was a delay in activating the bars he offered to send me screen shots of the instrument that I'm trading and did so, lots of them, so I could take a look.
Obviously I have only seen a couple of bars print, but looking back over Friday and watching the open Sunday night, I like what I see. I'll post more as I observe things.
Wolfie
The following 2 users say Thank You to WolfieWolf for this post:
Right, so I've been playing with the UTB's for a couple of days now. I spent most of the day yesterday playing with chart resolutions and finally found that the 233 Tick UTB's were not responsive enough for me. I scaled back to 175 and I have to say these bars are amazing. Here's why.
Not only do the bars themselves show the trend, but the way they organize the data makes my indicators smoother. Let's start with the bars. During periods of consolidation, in particular the overnight session, which I regularly trade, there are fewer elongated bars. As the market begins to trend the bar frequency increases and there are a lot more of them. See the attached screen shot.
As for smoothing indicators, my main indicator is the PLA Dynamical which, on it's own, does an excellent job of filtering the trend. With the UTB's, however, it does an incredible job compared to Tick Bars, Time based bars or Renko Bars (which I have come to despise).
First, take a look at the first test of my VP High. My Heiken Ashi turned red but the PLA stayed positive for two red bars before HA went positive again, keeping me in the trade. This is exactly what I want. I don't mind holding the position so long as I have a reason to. Immediately after we took out the VP High with a series of very small UTBs we rejected 99.17. As we came off there was a green HA but the PLA stayed negative. The same scenario plays out late in the day when we break out of the range and make new highs. HA goes red, PLA stays positive.
I've started modifying the HeikenAshi V4 so that the bars will stay positive, with a different shade of green, if they turn negative but PLA doesn't confirm. So instead of red bars I'll get a light green bar, showing me that there's weakness but not a reversal. Obviously I'll do a similar thing for the other side.
I've recently had people ask me if the price I paid for my indicators is "worth it" and I've read comments that "these bars are expensive". What I have to say to that is this. If anyone thinks spending $500 for a bar type this sophisticated isn't worth it, you might want to rethink your approach. I made significantly more than the price of the bars on _one trade_ this afternoon _because_ I was using them. Any purchase is like any trade, the cost of evaluating the bars is $50.00. I don't know about you but my stops, which I take regularly, are usually a bit bigger than that.
Being a properly capitalized trader means more than having enough margin to cover your intraday positions. You need to have enough cash to live off while you learn how to trade, lose money, and purchase quality technology and education. Sure there's a lot of free stuff out there, thanks to Mike and the awesome contributors on this forum, but there are also a lot of really smart people writing some really cool technology who, for whatever reason, want to get paid for their efforts. Some people say, "If they make money trading why do they have to sell software?" Who knows and who cares; it's what they want to do. I'm sure Mike takes money out of the market regularly and yet he spends a substantial amount of time working hard to make futures.io (formerly BMT) the incredible resource that it is. I've now spent a couple of days exchanging emails with Rob Mitchell, the creator of the UTBs and I can assure you all that, from my perspective, and you can base your value of this on your opinion of me, he knows what he's talking about.
Sure, I've purchased some crap along the way, some of it I was able to give back for a full or partial refund, but these bars, and PLA Dynamical are an absolutely amazing combination. Thanks Rob and Roger.
The following 4 users say Thank You to WolfieWolf for this post:
Funny. You can name it Reality Forum with $50 membership fee. There are enough of those that watch reality shows to support your expenses beyond your dreams. Hurry, Copywrite fast
The following 2 users say Thank You to aligator for this post:
So here are the results after a small coding exercise. The standard Heiken Ashi formula is in play for rising / falling "average" bars however I have coded the PLA into the mix as follows:
If HA goes negative, but PLA is still positive we get light green bars, instead of red.
If HA goes positive but PLA is still negative we get salmon bars, instead of green.
The result shows weakness in a trend and then a clear reversal signal confirmed by the PLA instead of a stoplight red green for every minor pullback etc.
Obviously the subjectivity comes into play based on an opinion of where the trend is going. Light green bars at a presumed Top can signal a reversal to the down side, whereas light green bars in the middle of a trend simply signify some responsive selling, profit taking, resistance, etc.
Thanks @Fat Tails for the Heiken Ashi V4... It's taken me a long time to figure out how to modify your bars but I think I now understand what you're doing in there. Very cool Plot Override. I had to add two new plots to make this happen. One for the OnBarUpdate section to store the PLA values and a second one to be consumed inside the Plot Override populated from the first plot with the (idx) value inside the loop. Rising / Falling keywords didn't work for me inside the Plot Override loop so I just used > previous bar < previous bar for my conditions and it seems to work
Wolfie
The following user says Thank You to WolfieWolf for this post:
Two months since WolfieWolf's positive report now. The $500 should have been repaid many many times over by now.
@WolfieWolf: Any update on your UTB experience?
I'm happy to update this thread. I am still enjoying the UTB's and using them as my primary bar type on a daily basis. I've now had the chance to compare them, over and over again, with other bar types including Renko and Volume which I keep coming back to for deeper analysis and I still can't find anything that does a better job. If I say that they've paid for themselves over and over again I'd be taking away from all the other factors that go into being a consistently profitable trader, we all know it takes more than a magic bar type, but I wouldn't be telling the whole story either if I didn't say that this choice in bar type has improved my entries and exits substantially. Additionally, and I think I said this initially, they smooth my indicators. I've been playing around lately with the D9 Particle Oscillator from the Elite section comparing it to the PLA and I'm finding this to be a winning combination.
Kind Regards
Wolfie
The following 3 users say Thank You to WolfieWolf for this post:
Topstep, sorry for my slow response. I have compared the UTB's with both of the bar types you mentioned. I have, in fact, purchased the Logik Dynamic Range and there is no comparison. I completed my trial of the RJay time adaptive range bars and didn't go ahead with a purchase and I do not use the Logik Dynamic bars at all.
The following user says Thank You to WolfieWolf for this post:
I have already figured out how this bar works.
I have filled out the activation form : Activate & Register Your UTBs » DAY TRADING DIVERGENCE.com
without paying any thing. Bars were activated yesterday and could test this bar. Today it is not working anymore, received an email about sending paypall payment receipt and of course I do not have that.
The bar is formed with a bunch of indicators, the ADX, JurikDMX and JurikJMA. You could see on the chart that the bars form a parabolic line. I think you can get the same by implementing the heikenasi.
$500 for this bar? For me not!
If you want to try it just fill in the activation form but be quick with testing this bar they will quickly mail you about the payment.
Hello Wolfie
I have the indicators and was wondering if you have a template for the chart settings [bar colour changes] that you wouldn't mind sharing? I'm not much of a coder unfortunately
Kindest Regards
Al.
Hello @TheGascogne as you may see you were given a "notification" (upper left hand portion of page-by your username) because I used the "@" sign preceding your username.(no spaces) This will give others the same notification, that you are referencing(such as @WolfieWolf) otherwise could be some time before that member if ever comes across a reference related to them.
Sorry for intruding just thought you might like to know.
The following user says Thank You to learning0101 for this post:
Thanks @learning0101, You're right, I wasn't aware of this question until you referenced my username. @TheGascogne, I would be happy to share my code... I'm not currently using it so give me a couple of days to dig it up.
Right, so this is the first time I've ever shared code with the general public. I never have and never will claim to be a developer although I have learned a few things and it seems that I spend more time these days writing code than anything else. I made the changes to the HeikenAshi code a long time ago and I am aware of a number of things I could have done better, but in the interest of getting this out the door I am electing to not fix it up right now. It works as expected but there are a few things, internally, that I could have done that would be better coding practice.
This is a modified version of FatTails HeikenAshiV4 which is available from the futures.io (formerly BMT) download section. You will need to have the fat tails version installed in order for this to work as I'm only providing the .cs file here, not the moving averages etc. The main change here is that the bars will paint based on HA values but they will also take into consideration the state of a PLADynamicalGold as either rising or falling. As an important note this is coded to use PLADynamicalGold.. if you have Silver or Bronze or whatever else Roger offers you will have to change every reference to this inside the indicator code. If the HA is down but the PLA is up you'll get Salmon coloured bars, if the HA is up but the PLA is down you'll get light green coloured bars... The intention here was to attempt to identify a pullback from a reversal. I don't use this indicator anymore as I have discovered more sophisticated ways of doing this. If the HA and PLA agree you get the usual colours. All the colours are configurable as parameters from the indicator properties as are the properties for the PLA itself for Anti-Reverse, AntiReversePeriod, PLA Length, Speed and Overshoot.
One last thing to mention. Playing around with this indicator at some point I swapped out the smoothing type ZLEMA for the PLA itself. So if you do use smoothing (which I can't imagine why anyone would because it's desperately lagging) ZLEMA will actually produce smoothed HA candles based on the configured values for the PLA properties.
I don't actually have a lot of time at the moment as I'm working on another interesting Ninja development project so if you want code changes feel free to ask and I will get around to it when I can, but just to set expectations, it won't be quickly. Having said that I have benefited greatly from the community here and I share Mike's vision of paying it forward Karma so I am eager to do so.
To use this copy it to your /custom/indicators folder, load it up in your editor... or any indicator for that matter as ninja compiles everything, and hit compile. If you don't get any errors you should find it in your indicator list as WolfieHeikenAshiPLA.
Let me know what you think.
Kind Regards
Wolfie
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Exported using NT 7.0.1000.22
Modified Heikin Ashi Bars:
- Option to select between the original Heikin-Ashi bars created by Dan Valcu and the modified Heikin-Ashi bars suggested by Sylvain Vervoort.
- The Heikin-Ashi candles can be smoothed …
After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
The following 4 users say Thank You to TheWizard for this post:
thanks for the indicator. I tried to compile it and it gives two references as missing - is there an updated version of the indicator? (I am a novice as for fixing the indicators) so looking for the easy solution first.
UTB's are based on volume delta.
A new bar is created when the volume delta is greater or equal than the bars period.
The main problem with this concept is that the only available method to calculate the delta in the context of a ninjatrader bar type is to use the up-tick vs down-tick, which isn't very accurate.
The overall calculation should be pretty easy to code and i really don't get the reason for a price tag of $500.
cheers,
mike
I never lose. I either win or learn. Nelson Mandela
The following 3 users say Thank You to mk77ch for this post:
This is a custom bar type which is based on the Bid Ask Delta (Ask Volume - Bid Volume).
A new bar is created when the Delta is greater than a given Threshold-Value defined in the Data Series Properties.
The archive also contains a custom Delta indicator …
would be interesting if somebody who owns the UTBs could compare them.
cheers
I never lose. I either win or learn. Nelson Mandela
