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Vendors providing P&L PROOF!?


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Vendors providing P&L PROOF!?

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  #1 (permalink)
 Joseph689 
San Jose, Ca
 
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Greetings,

I saw a webinar here recently "Understanding Order Flow with MarketDelta Footprint",
Presented by: Anthony Drager.

In this webinar a forum member asked if Anthony would disclose his P/L from his trading system he "charged' people for by attending his room! He basically replied with a "no"!

I propose this to you!!

When an individual provides you with a "system" to make money, charges you for that system, and you are placing your hard earned capital at risk using that system, YOU DAMNED RIGHT have a right to ask for proof in P&L statements and expect it!!!

Just my take on this!!

Joseph

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 mongoose 
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It is Marketdelta's room Anthony runs it. He is not selling a red light green light system, if that was the case you would be right to ask how it has preformed. What he is doing or trying to do is teach people that subscribe how to trade using the footprint. Marketdelta has more to gain from teaching people how to trade the footprint than trying to sell them some system. People that learn how to trade the footprint from this room will most likely become long term subscribers and that is their main goal.

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 Big Mike 
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Joseph689 View Post
When an individual provides you with a "system" to make money, charges you for that system, and you are placing your hard earned capital at risk using that system, YOU DAMNED RIGHT have a right to ask for proof in P&L statements and expect it!!!

That is not at all what happened, or what is happening in this case.

In four years of running futures.io (formerly BMT) I've seen this type of behavior from a lot of members, "demanding proof" of profitability, some of which even say it is impossible to be profitable and trading is a scam.

The best course of action for these people would be to wake-up, stop following others, stop associating their own trading wins or losses with those from "mentors" or other vendors who are selling something, and start taking responsibility for their own trading.

Stop following and start leading. This is your only post about that webinar it seems. So this is what you took away most from that webinar? What a shame.

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 syxforex 
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If you look at the footprint chart you will see that any sort of red green light system would require a human calculator on steroids for a brain. All professional flow traders use some variant of a footprint, all tell the same important thing, where the trapped traders are in the balance. Rules and systems are biased and really as far as I know there is simply no such thing that exists for a human intra-day trader. You must just learn the game and take your chances.

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 AlexB 
San Antonio, Tx
 
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Do universities provide proof that a degree will be profitable? Of course not, it depends on the person. Yet people spend years of their lives and tens of thousands on them. Not everyone who learns a skill like medicine, welding, law, reading order flow, whatever, will be successful in their chosen endeavor. It depends on the person.

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 syxforex 
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There is one trading room that does a trading call service and publishes their daily results to the public on their website each day. I forget the name but there is a thread here on bmt somewhere regarding trading rooms. I followed them for a month or two and they seem to do consistently well. They also provide historical stats on their day trading calls on the site. Again the link is here on bmt somewhere. They do training as well and seem to have a good reputation for that, so you can probably learn something while following. You will never learn how to trade blindly copying inet trade calls. There is no cookie cutter system, period. Every day is unique at some level, as is every trade. If you want to learn this game, and as quickly as possible, skip the online training, some is good, most is probably not. Choose wisely, it's your time and money. If you are serious about wanting to learn in a compressed time frame you ought to try and get a seat on a desk where you can sit directly next to cpt'z, consistently profitable traders, and absorb for a couple of years. If you want to go the online route, call me in five years and let me know how you are doing with the trade calls....

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  #8 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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I think for newbies, seeing proof at least once is essential since so much of vendor offerings is unregulated and dubious. But then just seeing proof once is enough. Just to reassure all this retail trading isn't a scam and there is actually a pot of gold (or some extra federal reserve notes) at the end of the rainbow for each individual trader. I no longer need proof to see it's possible. Then it's still the beginning of the journey, realizing a lot of hard work and experiencing pitfalls and drawbacks to get to the dream level of success.

A couple of vendors who show results:

Valhalla Futures - Daily Trade Blog ( a free room via icq. I saw the results were true )

Live Trading Room | Scalping Futures | Trades Results

update: of course Big Mike, these are few in the haystack out of many which I believe are true results and journals. I have seen many other tricks to fake results listed on other sites.

I don't even recommend those sites' products. Just to take a look at their journals. I never bought either of those sites products. Just a free trial on winborn and the free icq room on valhalla.

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 Big Mike 
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Don't fall prey to websites who publish results. In virtually every single case I've ever seen, the results are faked to prey on the inexperienced who don't know better.

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 addchild 
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AlexB View Post
Do universities provide proof that a degree will be profitable? Of course not, it depends on the person. Yet people spend years of their lives and tens of thousands on them. Not everyone who learns a skill like medicine, welding, law, reading order flow, whatever, will be successful in their chosen endeavor. It depends on the person.

I understand the sentiment, but the american bar association actually does require that law schools publish employment statistics.
https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/legal_education_and_admissions_to_the_bar/reports/law_grad_employment_data.authcheckdam.pdf

Class of 2012 Employment | Yale Law School


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 SarahKrantz 
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Cloudy View Post
A couple of vendors who show results:

Valhalla Futures - Daily Trade Blog ( a free room via icq. I saw the results were true )
Live Trading Room | Scalping Futures | Trades Results

Where the posted results also true from Winborn?

What troubles me about posted "results" is the lack of verification. Are those results Demo or Live? The difference is huge since price doesn't have to trade through to get filled in Demo mode.

Also, I was in a room recently that bragged about their Live trading and showed a DOM to prove it; unfortunately, the DOM was in SIM (but colored to look live) and the actual account number was an AMP fake.

Be skeptical and always kick the tires before committing.

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 Cloudy 
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SarahKrantz View Post
Where the posted results also true from Winborn?

I can only say the results I saw for a few days in the room on winborn confirmed what the recent posted results showed. He does the whole NYSE session like Al Brooks. But I know that's only a few days I saw. From what I gather, there is no training, just calling trades in a room on a bare chart. His daily results: https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=winborntraders&e=com

I spent more time in valhalla , a couple weeks. Valhalla's room is free, but the host only calls trades and does not teach. But from what I could gather I felt I didn't need to pay 3k for his training course as I felt for me it was unnecessary since I've found my own ways to trade and I felt the host's style of trading didn't fit my own either.

I spent three months in Al Brook's live trading room. But as those of us who had been there know, and others may have heard, Al never calls trades, or marks entries and exits. Sometimes he may go over a few trades in recap. But he doesn't even mark entries or exits after the fact either. The learning process of entry location and managing ongoing trades is also effectively non-existent in his room as there are no precise entry examples.

There are probably other rooms out there of course that has pages of results. Eventually one can learn to sniff out which are legit and reflective of real trading. I have the feeling that Valhalla is live trading and not sim moreso than winborn. Of course impossible to tell as the results are not statements and one can't discern if the screen or calls are live trading. But among other rooms I've visited or trialed, these two were had the most sensible "proof" comparably.

Of course now that I think of it, I feel one many only need proof once from a successful trader. Then no need to after that. For me it was seeing CJBooth get winning trades in succession that convinced me it was doable. Whatever room , vendor site or method is explored one should decide for themselves if they can learn something there to help their own trading, proof or not, as most sites don't even bother with proof or a public trading journal, but have plenty of ad material.

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 Joseph689 
San Jose, Ca
 
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Hello,

I still do believe it total transparency of anyone charging for their services/techniques/systems that requires placing your capital at risk!

Like Big Mike says, even when the data is provided, chances are it was doctored!!

Ultimately, it all boils down to, "buyer beware"!

With the above being said, I must thank Anthony for a very valuable lessen I learned from his Webinar:

"Find the sweet spot of profit targets.....then slowly increasing your size in what you participate with...lot easier to get 4 ticks with 4 contracts then 20 ticks with 1"

"Risk management is not the size you trade, it is how you exit your losers!"

Once you build a steady, consistent success rate of 4 to 8 ticks (market cycle), increase the contracts, scale out during the "sweet spot" range, and let the last 1+ contracts go for the potential home run!

Thank you Anthony!!

Joseph

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 tech1043 
Princeton, Texas,United States
 
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Not sure if this is the correct place to post this question. Was wondering if anyone had dealings with Precision Trading Systems? The guys name is Roger Medcalf. He has one that's looks interesting called Mach Trend indicator. Thanks for any input.

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 Big Mike 
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tech1043 View Post
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this question. Was wondering if anyone had dealings with Precision Trading Systems? The guys name is Roger Medcalf. He has one that's looks interesting called Mach Trend indicator. Thanks for any input.

No you need to create a new thread in the Vendors section.

Mike

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 GaryD 
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There is a market for selling "systems" to people to trade, because so many people want one. And I would bet that there are many profitable businesses that sell systems. People buy al kinds of things that don't really carry any value, and for some businesses, providing value is not their objective. They are there to sell something, and if there are enough people wanting to buy, they make a living. That concept is not going away any time soon.

But Market Delta's Footprint is not a system. Footprint is an indicator, a view of the market, a filter. How could there be any results to post?

Buying the best set of golf clubs does not make the golfer a pro. But if you have practiced until you have become a great golfer, a change in clubs might make a noticeable difference to your performance. Buying the best bait does not guarantee catching fish. But if you have learned the art of fishing, having the right bait can mean the difference between a great day and getting skunked.

The more seasoned a trader is, the more they understand what that indicator can and cannot do for them. Their expectation shifts from it being something that will solve all their problems, to just something to make them just a little bit better. And that is what footprint offers.

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 EastCoastTrader 
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Big Mike View Post
Don't fall prey to websites who publish results. In virtually every single case I've ever seen, the results are faked to prey on the inexperienced who don't know better.

Mike

Unless they post their account number or statement straight out of broker instead of typing numbers in excel? I had spent $$$$$ in trade room fees and buying indicators and system only to find later that virtually all of them are available at bmt; some of the indicators I paid for were actually straight out of bmt with name changes.

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 GaryD 
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EastCoastTrader View Post
Unless they post their account number or statement straight out of broker instead of typing numbers in excel?

Let's say that guy did post a copy of his broker's statement. A profitable trader with his account in lights may actually use Market Delta footprint, but I am nearly certain that is not the only thing contributing to his success. Nor would it be the only thing that would to yours.

Let's say Tiger Woods shows you which clubs he uses for which shots. And you might go buy those clubs, and they might be great clubs. But Tiger Woods showing how much money he has made golfing has nothing to do with how much you might make.

Trading is not red light / green light. It is a skill. So posting results is pointless, unless you are buying a black box system and plan to let it do it's thing and never touch it. But that is not becoming a trader.

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 Big Mike 
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EastCoastTrader View Post
Unless they post their account number or statement straight out of broker instead of typing numbers in excel? I had spent $$$$$ in trade room fees and buying indicators and system only to find later that virtually all of them are available at bmt; some of the indicators I paid for were actually straight out of bmt with name changes.

No. It is not enough to even post statements, or even to talk to a broker directly with permission from a vendor.

All of it can be easily faked and does not show the whole picture of someones trading. Probably the only true way to know would be to look at their tax returns, but of course it is still possible they will lie to the government.

Google for Larry Williams and NFA CFTC fines, you'll see an example scenario where he was accused of telling students he was profitable, but he maintained two separate accounts -- one was, one was not. I am just paraphrasing, you should do the search to find the exact results and details.

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 Big Mike 
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GaryD View Post
Trading is not red light / green light. It is a skill. So posting results is pointless, unless you are buying a black box system and plan to let it do it's thing and never touch it. But that is not becoming a trader.

I agree. And those who are consumed by chasing vendors instead of learning how to trade for themselves are doomed to failure.

If you cannot think for yourself, you stand little to no chance of being able to beat the best traders in the world. I assure you, they are leading -- not following.

Mike

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 Cloudy 
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Big Mike View Post

Google for Larry Williams and NFA CFTC fines, you'll see an example scenario where he was accused of telling students he was profitable, but he maintained two separate accounts -- one was, one was not. I am just paraphrasing, you should do the search to find the exact results and details.

Mike

Sorry to hear that about Larry Williams. Just goes to show again, nothing can be fully trusted. I'm beginning to hear
more radio ads for trading schools like OTA (Online Trading Academy) and some other "trading gurus" promising extra "monthly income" no doubt to advertise to everyone in desperate straits from the media pushed false "recovery" and the dire economic times for the middle class. Usually the ads start playing after 9pm. Larry Williams was even mentioned as an example in an ad. Far better chance to learn how to trade profitably from resources and links from places like futures.io (formerly BMT) than any of those radio vendor ads for the masses.

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 djarum11 
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regarding OTA, hope this helps and isnt too irrelevant-

sam seiden's articles, though repetitive and partially PR for OTA, greatly helped me understand suppy and demand. fitting this into my style of trading turned out to be a missing link in my system. i was very grateful so when they came to town about 6mos ago i checked out the free mini intro session.

i ended up investing $200 in a 3-day hotel seminar weekend and it was money very well spent. not only for the new ideas and structure they bring to the markets (can't speak for their execution/track record and dont care) that i could take and make my own, but mainly because it refreshed my head at a tough time.

since they have to cater to general folk/non-traders it was remarkable how deep they managed to get into some of their concepts. certainly enough for an experienced trader to add a few tools and increase my world view about trading for a living, like diversifying with long term strategies as well.

i try not to judge little purchases like this too much, i just try to get something worthwhile out of it. sometimes it's not information, it can be motivation or some other reason.

definitely got more than the $200 worth and the 2 long days. as far as signing up for $20k worth of trader education, um, thats where i draw the line...

cheers

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 Cloudy 
desert CA
 
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Sounds like you got a great deal for a 3 day seminar for only $200. And you weren't constantly approached and pressured to sign up for more expensive materials during that time? But great that it worked out for you for that weekend seminar.

There are horror stories about OTA reviewed with the seeming consensus that the organization is mostly about their marketing and sales. Many get caught up spending at least $4k to $6k for the "basic course".

Forums - Warning: Online Trading Academy (tradingacademy.com)
(the thread also discusses the question of "proof")

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 djarum11 
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yes actually you are pushed in a sense of sitting down with someone and 'reviewing each other' to see if u r a good fit. it is easy for them to not accept everybody (and therefore look more exclusive) because some audience members were completely out of touch and would not be good students. when i heard they let a guy in and were going to give him $20k financing after he just had a bankruptcy and a new baby, and this was just over a quick conversation no paperwork/formalities whatsoever, it sounded more shady, almost loansharkish. also you could just avoid the 3rd (last) day which is where the heavier sales pressure comes on.

ppl love to worry and talk about the problems of things like this but dont get caught up in that. evaluate it for what it is, for yourself. u might waste time and have to drop out of some new stuff but other stuff will make it worth it. effort in, results out:

if you are clear about your goals and your budget and u take responsibility for your own decisions then no one can really pressure you into anything. really a prerequisite for trading in the first place right. confidence comes from a broad perspective on what you really want in life and making sacrifices for it. boy do i digress

everyone needs diff input at diff times. but i was actually so impressed with the the gaps OTA was filling in to my trading approach like the focus on long term financial planning, trading options, strategy tips, etc. that i was ready to sign up. but the cost is ridiculous so you go home, do some research, find all this negative stuff about them, then u get more realistic and say do i want to deal with that, if that happens to me (constant sales pitches, underqualified instruction, whatever) or u incorporate the good stuff from what you just paid for over the tryout period and u leave it at that. no hard feelings

so i say if interested, take it for what it is and deal with some sales BS. have a plan X (excuse) in case u get really annoyed. just be smart and practice being level headed. this is what we need most for trading anyway

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 Cloudy 
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Interesting to hear that they still did the upselling pitches . Sure, everyone can make their own judgment and decisions based on their current experience and it's good to be informed by other reviews beforehand if nothing else to gauge what is overcharged and how OTA operates in many cities and the turnover of their own instructors. Now the ads are airing more often, with OTA just one of them.

Lots of free info on the web can be learned instead of what OTA promises. Plus our own journals here on futures.io (formerly BMT). Like this thread of links for instance:

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  #26 (permalink)
 deaddog 
Market Wizard
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Big Mike View Post
I agree. And those who are consumed by chasing vendors instead of learning how to trade for themselves are doomed to failure.

If you cannot think for yourself, you stand little to no chance of being able to beat the best traders in the world. I assure you, they are leading -- not following.

Mike

Isn't this the catch 22 situation that most find themselves in? How does one learn to trade for themselves? If vendors don't teach trading who does?

I keep hearing that 95% fail. I hear you need 10000 hours of screen time to become a successful trader.

The tuition that the market charges for your education is very expensive. I can attest to that.

I hear that you have to find a mentor, but if successful traders are few and far between how do you manage that?
The other side of the coin is that many aspiring traders want to be told what to do and are not willing to do the work required to become successful.

I know I have offered to help several traders but as soon as I mention developing a trading plan and trading it on demo I don't hear from them again. Why do I offer to help? Because no one offered to help me when I started and I sure could have used the help.

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  #27 (permalink)
adaseb
Canada
 
 
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In the 5 years that i've been trading I learnt that most of these people selling and advertising these PDFs, systems, methods, programs, DVDs, etc ,etc. They are horrible at trading and make absolutely no money but they are very good teachers.

Its 100 times easier making money in this business by teaching others how to trade than it is to actually make money trading.

Many traders have traded for years and failed, instead of just moving on they want to sell their experience and ideas and get something out of it.

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  #28 (permalink)
 deaddog 
Market Wizard
Prince George BC Canada
 
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adaseb View Post
They are horrible at trading and make absolutely no money but they are very good teachers.

How can that be?

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  #29 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
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any educator or trader calling trades with out showing there dome and swining size ....assume they are in sim and most likly can not trade ...

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  #30 (permalink)
 estrade 
Austin/TX
 
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Cloudy View Post
I think for newbies, seeing proof at least once is essential since so much of vendor offerings is unregulated and dubious. But then just seeing proof once is enough. Just to reassure all this retail trading isn't a scam and there is actually a pot of gold (or some extra federal reserve notes) at the end of the rainbow for each individual trader. I no longer need proof to see it's possible. Then it's still the beginning of the journey, realizing a lot of hard work and experiencing pitfalls and drawbacks to get to the dream level of success.

A couple of vendors who show results:

Valhalla Futures - Daily Trade Blog ( a free room via icq. I saw the results were true )

Live Trading Room | Scalping Futures | Trades Results

update: of course Big Mike, these are few in the haystack out of many which I believe are true results and journals. I have seen many other tricks to fake results listed on other sites.

I don't even recommend those sites' products. Just to take a look at their journals. I never bought either of those sites products. Just a free trial on winborn and the free icq room on valhalla.


The thing about winborn,, is you can't see that a day of +$150 ,,, you may of gone down $1000 first!

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  #31 (permalink)
 Cristian 
Bucharest - Romania
 
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speaking about Winborn ..You may compare the results from Collective2 with ones from his website

Winborn Traders

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  #32 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
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Joseph689 View Post
Greetings,

I saw a webinar here recently "Understanding Order Flow with MarketDelta Footprint",
Presented by: Anthony Drager.

In this webinar a forum member asked if Anthony would disclose his P/L from his trading system he "charged' people for by attending his room! He basically replied with a "no"!

I propose this to you!!

When an individual provides you with a "system" to make money, charges you for that system, and you are placing your hard earned capital at risk using that system, YOU DAMNED RIGHT have a right to ask for proof in P&L statements and expect it!!!

Just my take on this!! trading vendors are penguins birds that can not fly...they can not trade that is why they are vendors
Joseph

i have never seen one vendor that can trade ...not one

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  #33 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
Market Wizard
Montreal, Quebec
 
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forgiven View Post
i have never seen one vendor that can trade ...not one

I agree. I could write pages and pages on the morality of vendors...

The bottom line is this, even if you could find a vendor whom does trade live and is consistently profitable and can prove it, great. If you follow that traders every trade and it makes you profitible, great. But it won't make you better as a trader because at the end of the day you are just a follower.

There is no magic here. The only solution is to learn to trade yourself.

--------------------------------------------------------
- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
--------------------------------------------------------
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  #34 (permalink)
 TradingDrills   is a Vendor
 
 
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JonnyBoy View Post
I agree. I could write pages and pages on the morality of vendors...

The bottom line is this, even if you could find a vendor whom does trade live and is consistently profitable and can prove it, great. If you follow that traders every trade and it makes you profitible, great. But it won't make you better as a trader because at the end of the day you are just a follower.

There is no magic here. The only solution is to learn to trade yourself.

Thanks JonnyBoy for the great feedback!

Very good point that by watching a Live trade and record of consistently of a vendor, one only becomes confident that this rare Vendor is reliable and knows how to trade on his/her own account.

Also agree that by watching the vendor live performance, a trader may not learn very much as that is like watching professional swimmers/athletes and expect to learn swimming from their live performance.

A successful trader can only train someone successfully if he/she knows the fundamentals of high-performance coaching and deliberate practice. This rare successful vendor needs to also learn how to turn his/her profitable setup into an effective deliberate practice coaching system, which includes trader Level Evaluation + Setting Specific Goals based on the trader level + Repeated Focused Deliberate Practices that gradually get harder and more complex + Constant Instant Feedback to the trader.

Happy Trading!
Ray

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  #35 (permalink)
 iq200 
Surrey, UK
 
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This guy at least admits that he teaches better than he can trade (taken from NOBS Trades on Twitter - could not post direct link).


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  #36 (permalink)
 nothingbutprofits 
rochester new york/USA
 
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Can anyone post the list of "successful" or reliable vendors with actual trade performance here?

We want to get this subject to be discussed by us.

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  #37 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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I recently went through the process of becoming a NinjaTrader ecosystem vendor so that I could make some of my proprietary order flow indicators available to members of my YouTube channel. There was very strict rules about making specific performance claims. What I have learned is that if you really are making money there's not really any incentive to actually tell people. In fact, it's the ones that are constantly out there making profitability claims that seem to be the scammers.

Even if they do show you results though I'm not so sure that it really helps. So I've found myself to be doing quite well lately, but I'm still weary about putting on real risk. I've been sticking to sim for the most part. The stats might look ok, but there's still things in the trading strategy that I'm not happy with. So ultimately being able to verify someone's results doesn't help much. They might be getting those results with bad habits. They might just be lucky. They might have a real edge, but not understand where their edge is really coming from. They might have real edge, but you'll be unable to duplicate their results.

So it's good that we see more and more people requesting actual proof, but I think the retail community as a whole needs to rethink how we approach such things. One person's trading performance is anecdotal evidence, and should not be considered proof of a strategy's efficacy. Just like a positive backtest doesn't mean a strategy will be profitable into the future.

Instead what I think people should be looking for is empirical evidence proving a certain behavior in markets. Behaviors that are different from just a random walk that you can base your own strategy on.

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  #38 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
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@TWDsje please go to the Contact Us page at bottom of this page, and click 'register as a vendor' and give me your business name.

Mike

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  #39 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
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TWDsje View Post
I recently went through the process of becoming a NinjaTrader ecosystem vendor so that I could make some of my proprietary order flow indicators available to members of my YouTube channel.

Why do you need to become a Ninjatrader ecosystem vendor. Surely you can sell whatever you like off your own YouTube channel. Or to put it bluntly, does that just provide a veneer of respectability?



TWDsje View Post
So I've found myself to be doing quite well lately, but I'm still weary about putting on real risk. I've been sticking to sim for the most part.

Commendably honest but isn't that a contradiction in terms. Either you are making money or you aren't. If you are trading for "points" in sim, you aren't making real money.
If I was seeing vendor results I would expect them to be real money, if the vendor isn't making actual money from his indicators, or be able to use them with a real money account as the buyer wants to do, why would I buy them?

In the same way as forex robot salesman always show sim results because their "no loss guaranteed" forex robots would be making steady profits but also be sitting on an unrealised open loss that they would have been in for weeks, but would say it doesn't matter as it isn't a loss until the position is closed. They couldn't do that with real money mark to market at the end of the day.
Or run their indicator on multiple sim accounts with different settings and the salesman could just show the one account that is making money and ignore all the losing accounts results.
I don't think sim results are worth the paper they are written on.

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
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  #40 (permalink)
 Fonz 
Miami, Fl
 
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TWDsje View Post
I've been sticking to sim for the most part. The stats might look ok...

I like honesty, that is a good start.


TWDsje View Post
So ultimately being able to verify someone's results doesn't help much. They might be getting those results with bad habits. They might just be lucky. They might have a real edge, but not understand where their edge is really coming from...

Ouch.. You should realize that doesn't help you to try to bring confusion regarding results. Daily, weekly, monthly, and even yearly results will tell a lot: Profitability, risks, consistency, etc.


TWDsje View Post
So it's good that we see more and more people requesting actual proof, but I think the retail community as a whole needs to rethink how we approach such things. One person's trading performance is anecdotal evidence, and should not be considered proof of a strategy's efficacy. Just like a positive backtest doesn't mean a strategy will be profitable into the future.
Instead what I think people should be looking for is empirical evidence proving a certain behavior in markets. Behaviors that are different from just a random walk that you can base your own strategy on.

Well, me the would be vendor against the retail community as a whole..

If I may, there is nothing wrong regarding a vendor coding and developing indicators. Showing the work as it is will bring you happy customers trying to develop their own methodology. Trying to explain to the "retail community" that your indicators and strategies will bring fortune if their are correctly understood and correctly applied, with no proof of anything, just wont.
Which you the best in your new vendor career

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  #41 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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matthew28 View Post
Why do you need to become a Ninjatrader ecosystem vendor. Surely you can sell whatever you like off your own YouTube channel. Or to put it bluntly, does that just provide a veneer of respectability?

There's a number of benefits. Primarily because it gives access to the built in vendor licensing. I wanted to collaborate with my viewers by giving them the same tools I use. There was not much setup required to get the licensing working, and it lets me give people free trials. There's not much more to it than that.


Quoting 
If I was seeing vendor results I would expect them to be real money, if the vendor isn't making actual money from his indicators, or be able to use them with a real money account as the buyer wants to do, why would I buy them?

There are things about this market that make me uncomfortable putting on a lot of risk with futures. I only mentioned that I've had some encouraging results lately to illustrate that what many people would consider to be good stats isn't enough for me to be comfortable with risk taking right now. By extension I'm questioning the premise that past stats alone justify taking on risk. Past performance is not indicative of future results.


Fonz View Post
Trying to explain to the "retail community" that your indicators and strategies will bring fortune if their are correctly understood and correctly applied, with no proof of anything, just wont.

I never made such a claim, and I never would make such a claim. I sense though that people are missing the larger point I was trying to convey. Look at the most reputable names and vendors in the futures trading space. The people that regularly do webinars here. Do they market their products or services by regularly posting public broker statements? I've never seen it. In fact, when you really look you'll notice that they actively avoid making any performance claims. I only see fools and scammers posting such things.

Why is that? Well, once you start looking at the compliance requirements for such things you'll realize that it's just a liability to make performance claims, even if you can back it up. That's why I jump on people so quickly when they make such performance claims on forums. I know that if they really knew what they were doing they wouldn't boast.

Hence why even though all of my trading is available to watch on YouTube, I do not make performance claims. Sometimes I do well. Sometimes I don't do well. If I do well you might not be able to duplicate my results.

Many people are searching for something that they're just never going to find. Which is why I suggest a different approach. Look for evidence of a market behavior that isn't just a random walk. That's going to get you a lot farther.

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  #42 (permalink)
 TheShrike 
Hi Mom!
Bridgeport, Ct
 
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TWDsje View Post
There's a number of benefits. Primarily because it gives access to the built in vendor licensing. I wanted to collaborate with my viewers by giving them the same tools I use. There was not much setup required to get the licensing working, and it lets me give people free trials. There's not much more to it than that.



There are things about this market that make me uncomfortable putting on a lot of risk with futures. I only mentioned that I've had some encouraging results lately to illustrate that what many people would consider to be good stats isn't enough for me to be comfortable with risk taking right now. By extension I'm questioning the premise that past stats alone justify taking on risk. Past performance is not indicative of future results.



I never made such a claim, and I never would make such a claim. I sense though that people are missing the larger point I was trying to convey. Look at the most reputable names and vendors in the futures trading space. The people that regularly do webinars here. Do they market their products or services by regularly posting public broker statements? I've never seen it. In fact, when you really look you'll notice that they actively avoid making any performance claims. I only see fools and scammers posting such things.

Why is that? Well, once you start looking at the compliance requirements for such things you'll realize that it's just a liability to make performance claims, even if you can back it up. That's why I jump on people so quickly when they make such performance claims on forums. I know that if they really knew what they were doing they wouldn't boast.

Hence why even though all of my trading is available to watch on YouTube, I do not make performance claims. Sometimes I do well. Sometimes I don't do well. If I do well you might not be able to duplicate my results.

Many people are searching for something that they're just never going to find. Which is why I suggest a different approach. Look for evidence of a market behavior that isn't just a random walk. That's going to get you a lot farther.

That's a pretty convenient line to take, now that you're officially a vendor. Anyone selling something can easily post an account statement without making performance claims. Why don't the vast majority of vendors do it? Because they can't. They trade sim or they don't trade at all. They're marketeers, not traders. That's the bottom line. Think about it, if any of these vendors could actually prove that what they're selling works it would be a huge boon to their business - but you never see it in this industry. Why? Because there's more money to be made selling shovels than there is mining the actual gold.

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  #43 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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TheShrike View Post
That's a pretty convenient line to take, now that you're officially a vendor. Anyone selling something can easily post an account statement without making performance claims.

As soon as you do that you'd also have to ensure that data is updated every 90 days, mention that past performance is not indicative of future results, have equally empathized statements about the risk of loss, and be able to demonstrate to NFA that the information is representative of the actual performance for the same time period of all reasonably comparable accounts.

But ya know, I'm a vendor now selling a $10 per month YouTube channel membership so clearly I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes lmao.

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  #44 (permalink)
 Fonz 
Miami, Fl
 
Experience: Advanced
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TWDsje View Post
...
...But ya know, I'm a vendor now selling a $10 per month YouTube channel membership so clearly I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes lmao.

This is so true and so sad.

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  #45 (permalink)
 TheShrike 
Hi Mom!
Bridgeport, Ct
 
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TWDsje View Post
As soon as you do that you'd also have to ensure that data is updated every 90 days, mention that past performance is not indicative of future results, have equally empathized statements about the risk of loss, and be able to demonstrate to NFA that the information is representative of the actual performance for the same time period of all reasonably comparable accounts.

But ya know, I'm a vendor now selling a $10 per month YouTube channel membership so clearly I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes lmao.

That would be true if you were or had to be registered with the NFA. Otherwise no. Trading education vendors don't because they're generally not CPO's, CTA's, IB's or FCM's. There's nothing magical about posting a picture of an account statement as long as it's accompanied by an appropriate disclaimer. You seem pretty sharp, so you probably already knew that and have appropriate disclaimers on your indicator site and discord.

Listen, I don't care one way or another what you sell or how cheap or expensive it is. If you can sell a watermelon for 10,000 dollars great. If you can make a couple extra bucks flogging affiliate links in your discord or monetizing your Youtube videos then good for you. All I'm advocating for is more transparency in the industry. If you're selling something that you claim to use yourself to make money, you should be able to at least demonstrate that it works to a potential customer. Most don't because they can't. That's all.

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  #46 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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TheShrike View Post
That would be true if you were or had to be registered with the NFA. Otherwise no. Trading education vendors don't because they're generally not CPO's, CTA's, IB's or FCM's. There's nothing magical about posting a picture of an account statement as long as it's accompanied by an appropriate disclaimer. You seem pretty sharp, so you probably already knew that and have appropriate disclaimers on your indicator site and discord.

Listen, I don't care one way or another what you sell or how cheap or expensive it is. If you can sell a watermelon for 10,000 dollars great. If you can make a couple extra bucks flogging affiliate links in your discord or monetizing your Youtube videos then good for you. All I'm advocating for is more transparency in the industry. If you're selling something that you claim to use yourself to make money, you should be able to at least demonstrate that it works to a potential customer. Most don't because they can't. That's all.

These are all requirements of being a part of the NinjaTrader ecosystem. Even if a vendor wasn't legally obligated to follow these guidelines I think one would be foolish to do things that would break those rules. It's better to be safe and follow the strictest standards beyond what is legally required. Anything else is a liability waiting to happen, and there's nothing in it for the vendor regardless of whether or not they trade profitably.

You can dislike that all you want, but all I'm doing is explaining why it is what it is. You're looking for something that's never going to exist, and if you find it the chances are you're being fooled.

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  #47 (permalink)
 iq200 
Surrey, UK
 
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forgiven View Post
i have never seen one vendor that can trade ...not one



That's because the ones who can trade successfully are trading and don't have time to post on social media or trading forums!

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