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Vendors providing P&L PROOF!?


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Vendors providing P&L PROOF!?

  #31 (permalink)
 Cristian 
Bucharest - Romania
 
Experience: None
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speaking about Winborn ..You may compare the results from Collective2 with ones from his website

Winborn Traders

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  #32 (permalink)
 
forgiven's Avatar
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Joseph689 View Post
Greetings,

I saw a webinar here recently "Understanding Order Flow with MarketDelta Footprint",
Presented by: Anthony Drager.

In this webinar a forum member asked if Anthony would disclose his P/L from his trading system he "charged' people for by attending his room! He basically replied with a "no"!

I propose this to you!!

When an individual provides you with a "system" to make money, charges you for that system, and you are placing your hard earned capital at risk using that system, YOU DAMNED RIGHT have a right to ask for proof in P&L statements and expect it!!!

Just my take on this!! trading vendors are penguins birds that can not fly...they can not trade that is why they are vendors
Joseph

i have never seen one vendor that can trade ...not one

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  #33 (permalink)
 
JonnyBoy's Avatar
 JonnyBoy 
Montreal, Quebec
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Kinetick
Trading: ES
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forgiven View Post
i have never seen one vendor that can trade ...not one

I agree. I could write pages and pages on the morality of vendors...

The bottom line is this, even if you could find a vendor whom does trade live and is consistently profitable and can prove it, great. If you follow that traders every trade and it makes you profitible, great. But it won't make you better as a trader because at the end of the day you are just a follower.

There is no magic here. The only solution is to learn to trade yourself.

--------------------------------------------------------
- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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  #34 (permalink)
 
TradingDrills's Avatar
 TradingDrills   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 9 since Nov 2011
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JonnyBoy View Post
I agree. I could write pages and pages on the morality of vendors...

The bottom line is this, even if you could find a vendor whom does trade live and is consistently profitable and can prove it, great. If you follow that traders every trade and it makes you profitible, great. But it won't make you better as a trader because at the end of the day you are just a follower.

There is no magic here. The only solution is to learn to trade yourself.

Thanks JonnyBoy for the great feedback!

Very good point that by watching a Live trade and record of consistently of a vendor, one only becomes confident that this rare Vendor is reliable and knows how to trade on his/her own account.

Also agree that by watching the vendor live performance, a trader may not learn very much as that is like watching professional swimmers/athletes and expect to learn swimming from their live performance.

A successful trader can only train someone successfully if he/she knows the fundamentals of high-performance coaching and deliberate practice. This rare successful vendor needs to also learn how to turn his/her profitable setup into an effective deliberate practice coaching system, which includes trader Level Evaluation + Setting Specific Goals based on the trader level + Repeated Focused Deliberate Practices that gradually get harder and more complex + Constant Instant Feedback to the trader.

Happy Trading!
Ray

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  #35 (permalink)
 iq200 
London, UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader, Tradestation
Broker: Kinetick, InteractiveBrokers
Trading: Equities, Futures
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This guy at least admits that he teaches better than he can trade (taken from NOBS Trades on Twitter - could not post direct link).


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  #36 (permalink)
 
nothingbutprofits's Avatar
 nothingbutprofits 
rochester new york/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: ThinkOrSwim & NT
Broker: NT, TOS
Trading: ES NQ RTY CL NG
Posts: 78 since Feb 2021
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Can anyone post the list of "successful" or reliable vendors with actual trade performance here?

We want to get this subject to be discussed by us.

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  #37 (permalink)
 SpeculatorSeth   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 780 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 22
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I recently went through the process of becoming a NinjaTrader ecosystem vendor so that I could make some of my proprietary order flow indicators available to members of my YouTube channel. There was very strict rules about making specific performance claims. What I have learned is that if you really are making money there's not really any incentive to actually tell people. In fact, it's the ones that are constantly out there making profitability claims that seem to be the scammers.

Even if they do show you results though I'm not so sure that it really helps. So I've found myself to be doing quite well lately, but I'm still weary about putting on real risk. I've been sticking to sim for the most part. The stats might look ok, but there's still things in the trading strategy that I'm not happy with. So ultimately being able to verify someone's results doesn't help much. They might be getting those results with bad habits. They might just be lucky. They might have a real edge, but not understand where their edge is really coming from. They might have real edge, but you'll be unable to duplicate their results.

So it's good that we see more and more people requesting actual proof, but I think the retail community as a whole needs to rethink how we approach such things. One person's trading performance is anecdotal evidence, and should not be considered proof of a strategy's efficacy. Just like a positive backtest doesn't mean a strategy will be profitable into the future.

Instead what I think people should be looking for is empirical evidence proving a certain behavior in markets. Behaviors that are different from just a random walk that you can base your own strategy on.

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  #38 (permalink)
 
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 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
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Swing Trader
 
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@TWDsje please go to the Contact Us page at bottom of this page, and click 'register as a vendor' and give me your business name.

Mike

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  #39 (permalink)
 
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 matthew28 
United Kingdom
 
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TWDsje View Post
I recently went through the process of becoming a NinjaTrader ecosystem vendor so that I could make some of my proprietary order flow indicators available to members of my YouTube channel.

Why do you need to become a Ninjatrader ecosystem vendor. Surely you can sell whatever you like off your own YouTube channel. Or to put it bluntly, does that just provide a veneer of respectability?



TWDsje View Post
So I've found myself to be doing quite well lately, but I'm still weary about putting on real risk. I've been sticking to sim for the most part.

Commendably honest but isn't that a contradiction in terms. Either you are making money or you aren't. If you are trading for "points" in sim, you aren't making real money.
If I was seeing vendor results I would expect them to be real money, if the vendor isn't making actual money from his indicators, or be able to use them with a real money account as the buyer wants to do, why would I buy them?

In the same way as forex robot salesman always show sim results because their "no loss guaranteed" forex robots would be making steady profits but also be sitting on an unrealised open loss that they would have been in for weeks, but would say it doesn't matter as it isn't a loss until the position is closed. They couldn't do that with real money mark to market at the end of the day.
Or run their indicator on multiple sim accounts with different settings and the salesman could just show the one account that is making money and ignore all the losing accounts results.
I don't think sim results are worth the paper they are written on.

You do not win as a trader, you just get to play again the next day. If that game doesn’t appeal to you then you should not trade. Gary Norden
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  #40 (permalink)
 
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 Fonz 
Miami, Fl
 
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TWDsje View Post
I've been sticking to sim for the most part. The stats might look ok...

I like honesty, that is a good start.


TWDsje View Post
So ultimately being able to verify someone's results doesn't help much. They might be getting those results with bad habits. They might just be lucky. They might have a real edge, but not understand where their edge is really coming from...

Ouch.. You should realize that doesn't help you to try to bring confusion regarding results. Daily, weekly, monthly, and even yearly results will tell a lot: Profitability, risks, consistency, etc.


TWDsje View Post
So it's good that we see more and more people requesting actual proof, but I think the retail community as a whole needs to rethink how we approach such things. One person's trading performance is anecdotal evidence, and should not be considered proof of a strategy's efficacy. Just like a positive backtest doesn't mean a strategy will be profitable into the future.
Instead what I think people should be looking for is empirical evidence proving a certain behavior in markets. Behaviors that are different from just a random walk that you can base your own strategy on.

Well, me the would be vendor against the retail community as a whole..

If I may, there is nothing wrong regarding a vendor coding and developing indicators. Showing the work as it is will bring you happy customers trying to develop their own methodology. Trying to explain to the "retail community" that your indicators and strategies will bring fortune if their are correctly understood and correctly applied, with no proof of anything, just wont.
Which you the best in your new vendor career

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