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Viper AT

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  #1 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

This thread is for discussion of only the Viper Auto Trade systems, not the indicator ViperIII, nor ViperTradeAssistant.

The strategies include: AnacondaAutoESLongnew, AnacondaAutoEsShortnew, RusselVipernew2, Viper6Bnew, Viper6Enew, ViperDiamondbacknew, ViperForexGBPUSDnew2, ViperMambanew,ViperScalperForex, ViperScalperForexJpys, ViperScalperFutures, ViperZBnew, and ViperZNnew. These scripts are available for all current subscribers for $299.00 a month.

Viper has indicated new prices will take effect with the launching of a new website sometime in the near future. In addition, AnacondaAutoESLongnew, AnacondaAutoEsShortnew, RusselVipernew2, Viper6Bnew, Viper6Enew, ViperDiamondbacknew, and ViperMambanew will no longer be available to new subscribers.

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  #3 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


A general rule among system buyers calls for the monthly price of the system to be at a range of 10-15% of the monthly profits, net of commissions and subscription fees.

Attached are the six month backtest results for the ViperScalperFutures6E (Globex, Euro FX) with default settings for targets as recommended by the developer Rich Staiton during subscriber webinars. Using a 4 Range chart, trading started at 12:05 AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. The system default of a daily profit shutdown of $200 was on as well as a daily loss shutdown of $400. Profit target was 10 ticks; stop loss was 12 ticks.

For the period starting 8/20/09 and ending 2/16/10, the system generated 350 trades resulting in a profit of $2775 before commissions and subscriber fees. Commission expense at $4.00 per trade was $1400, and subscriber fees were $1794, for a total expense of $3194.

Net Result: this system LOST $419

Recommendation: Avoid

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  #4 (permalink)
 Eric j 
NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Esignal, MBT navigator
Trading: Currencies
 
Posts: 2,526 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,396 given, 2,576 received

Im glad someone is exposing these things for what they are . Thanks ZOE for a great service to all . Theres too many predators out there and unfortunately enough pigeons to feed their appetites .

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  #5 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFutures6E (Globex, Euro FX) trading one contract with a 4 Range chart. Trading started at 12:05 AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of three trades and a maximum daily loss of $500. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 420 trades resulting in a loss of $1975 before commissions and subscriber fees. Proforma commission expense at $4.00 per trade was $1680, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $2577.

Result: this system LOST $4552 after commissions and subscriber fees.

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  #6 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesES (GLOBEX, E-mini S&P 500) trading one contract with a 5 Range chart. Trading started at 6:45 AM PST and ended 12:40 PM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of one trade and a maximum daily loss of $300. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 49 trades resulting in a profit of $75 before commissions and subscriber fees. Proforma commission expense at $4.00 per trade was $196, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1093.

Result: this system LOST $1018 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #7 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesYM (GLOBEX, mini-size Dow)trading one contract with a 4 Range chart. Trading started at 7:00AM PST and ended 12:50 PM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of two tradesand a maximum daily loss of $180. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 178 trades resulting in a loss of $720 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of4.00 per trade was $712, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1609.

Result: this system LOST $2329 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #8 (permalink)
 max-td 
Frankfurt
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: FGBL 6E B4
 
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Posts: 1,754 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 2,309 given, 924 received

Thanx for those reports!

max-td
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  #9 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesCL (NYMEX, Light Sweet Crude) trading one contract with a 6 Range chart. Trading started at 6:00AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 25 ticks and a stop loss of 33 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of three trades and a maximum daily loss of $990. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 285 trades resulting in a profit of $3410 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $1140, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $2037.

Result: this system WON $1373 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #10 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesTF (NYBOT, Mini Russel 2000) trading one contract with a 4 Range chart. Trading started at 6:40 AM PST and ended 12:40 PM PST. With a profit target of 14 ticks and a stop loss of 20 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of two trades and a maximum daily loss of $600. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 208 trades resulting in a loss of $1140 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $832, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1729.

Result: this system LOST $2869 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #11 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesFGBL (EUREX, Euro Bund Future) trading one contract with a 4 Range chart. Trading started at 3:00AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of one trade and a maximum daily loss of e$240. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 68 trades resulting in a profit of e$90 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $272, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1169.

Result: this system LOST $1047 after commission, subscriber fees and conversion of e$90 to US$.

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  #12 (permalink)
 eDanny 
East Rochester, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
 
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Posts: 329 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 17 given, 423 received


Zoethecus View Post
Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesCL (NYMEX, Light Sweet Crude) trading one contract with a 6 Range chart. Trading started at 6:00AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 25 ticks and a stop loss of 33 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of three trades and a maximum daily loss of $990. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 285 trades resulting in a profit of $3410 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $1140, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $2037.

Result: this system WON $1373 after commission and subscriber fees.

Not bad, $350 per month income. Yay!

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  #13 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
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Posts: 6,042 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 854 given, 7,911 received

I think the system owner will have a severe case of heart failure long before he starts to collect his win.

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  #14 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
Houston,Tx
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: TF
 
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Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,206 given, 4,337 received

I am new here and still learning the proper protocol, but I gotta ask; If you wrote a strategy that when actually traded was consistently profitable , why would you sell it or rent it at any price?

If their systems are profitable, why don't they agree to take their payments as a percentage of the winning trades?

I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer and I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I have always wondered about this when I see people hawking their trading systems.

If I ever write a system that makes money trading futures all day while I lay out by the pool , not only will I not sell it, I will have armed guards on the source code.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #15 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
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Posts: 6,042 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 854 given, 7,911 received


ThatManFromTexas View Post
..

If I ever write a system that makes money trading futures all day while I lay out by the pool , not only will I not sell it, I will have armed guards on the source code.

I am pretty sure they do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

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  #16 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesNQ (GLOBEX, E-mini NASDAQ-100 Futures) trading one contract with a 4 Range chart. Trading started at 7:00AM PST and ended 12:40 AM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of one trade and a maximum daily loss of $120. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 107 trades resulting in a loss of $360 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $428, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1325.

Result: this system LOST $1685 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #17 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesZW (GLOBEX Wheat Futures) trading one contract with a 2 Range chart. Trading started at 7:30 AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of one trade and a maximum daily loss of $300. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 125 trades resulting in a win of $575.50 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $500, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1397.

Result: this system LOST $859.50 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesZS (GLOBEX Soybean Futures) trading one contract with a 2 Range chart. Trading started at 7:30 AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 10 ticks and a stop loss of 12 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of two trades and a maximum daily loss of $450. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 244 trades resulting in a loss of $2062.50 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $976, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1873.

Result: this system LOST $3935.50 after commission and subscriber fees.

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  #19 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009

Viper has released their official guidance on how to best set parameters to trade ScalperAT. In fairness to Viper, I will post back test results using NT 6.5 and the suggested recommendations as sent to Viper AT subscribers. I will simply present the data and withhold my opinion or recommendation.

Pictured below are the performance data, equity curve, and parameters for ViperScalperFuturesFESX (EUREX, DJ EURO STOXX 50) trading one contract with a 2 Range chart. Trading started at 2:00 AM PST and ended 11:00 AM PST. With a profit target of 6 ticks and a stop loss of 9 ticks, Viper suggested a daily "net win" of three trades and a maximum daily loss of e$360. If either of those situations occur, the system would stop trading for the session.

For the period starting 11/21/09 and ending 2/19/10, the system generated 275 trades resulting in a loss of e$1780 before commmission and susbcriber fees. Proforma commission expense of 4.00 per trade was $1100, and subscriber fees were $897, for a total expense of $1997.

Result: this system LOST $4407 after commission, subscriber fees and conversion of e$1780 to US$.

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  #20 (permalink)
 Peter2150 
Washington DC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
 
Posts: 214 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 110 given, 117 received


Eric j View Post
Im glad someone is exposing these things for what they are . Thanks ZOE for a great service to all . Theres too many predators out there and unfortunately enough pigeons to feed their appetites .

In the sense of fair and balanced, I am not sure what is going on in this thread is all that ethical either.

If you are truly trying to warn people about the dangers of AT's then there are a lot of them out there. Why not review all the one's on Ninja's site. Why just Viper. It's almost like you have some kind of personal agenda, which calls into question your objectivity.

Also from the timing of release of their recommendations, you either are on the inside, have a contact on the inside or have some way of getting info almost immediately. Not the highest standards of eithical conduct in my opinion.

Pete

PS No I don't use the autotraders, cause I don't like them myself.

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  #21 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009


Peter2150 View Post
In the sense of fair and balanced, I am not sure what is going on in this thread is all that ethical either.

If you are truly trying to warn people about the dangers of AT's then there are a lot of them out there. Why not review all the one's on Ninja's site. Why just Viper. It's almost like you have some kind of personal agenda, which calls into question your objectivity.

Also from the timing of release of their recommendations, you either are on the inside, have a contact on the inside or have some way of getting info almost immediately. Not the highest standards of ethical conduct in my opinion.

Pete

PS No I don't use the autotraders, cause I don't like them myself.

Everything in this thread is fair and ethical. In fact, it's overly fair. Why? Because it gives information to the public that they wouldn't be privy to unless they spent their money to find out. And I'm not breaking any laws. All the information is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge. And if it weren't, I imagine Viper would come here and challenge it at the very least.

I'm helping to educate prospective consumers.

True, there are many AT on Ninja, but this is the only one I'm familiar with so here it is.

P.s. And since this is your second post of this nature, I question your real motivations.

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  #22 (permalink)
 Eric j 
NY
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Esignal, MBT navigator
Trading: Currencies
 
Posts: 2,526 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,396 given, 2,576 received


Peter2150 View Post
In the sense of fair and balanced, I am not sure what is going on in this thread is all that ethical either.

If you are truly trying to warn people about the dangers of AT's then there are a lot of them out there. Why not review all the one's on Ninja's site. Why just Viper. It's almost like you have some kind of personal agenda, which calls into question your objectivity.

Also from the timing of release of their recommendations, you either are on the inside, have a contact on the inside or have some way of getting info almost immediately. Not the highest standards of eithical conduct in my opinion.

Pete

PS No I don't use the autotraders, cause I don't like them myself.

There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesnt exist .

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  #23 (permalink)
 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
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Eric j View Post
There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesn't exist .

I agree Eric.

But doesn't having ethics cut both ways?

In the case of Viper Trading Systems, they only portray the occasions when the products have a win and never a loss. My email box is full of hype and promotion with video and all when these guys lay claim to winning trades. It leads the unsuspecting reader to think this stuff is an ATM, when, if you look at the hard data as pictured in this thread, these so called "tools" are consistent losers.

Years back, the tobacco industry had everyone believing cigarettes were good and hip--a life enhancer--when they very well knew the product was a killer. It took a whistle blower to expose the truth and now the public is much better off because of that.

Although not a perfect analogy, I feel the same thing is being done in this forum and thread, albeit to a much smaller but more focused audience.

If I'm wrong and off base, let's have Charles Boyle, Gary Donahoo and Rich Staition, (who I'm sure read this thread with great interest) come here and refute me and what I've presented.

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 Peter2150 
Washington DC
 
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Eric j View Post
There is no fair or balanced when predator types are involved . You see , its fair to say that all of these types of vendors or " educators " have no remorse if they sell or lease or rent you their ideas and "you cant make them work " so the balance is totally in their favor . Its too bad that the uninformed have to lose a fortune or anything for that matter to learn that easy money doesnt exist .

Hi Eric j

Lets be a bit fair here. Those that think there is such a thing will lose money no matter what. Ask yourself, how anyone can be foolish enough to fall for the Nigerian Scam letters, but many do.

When it comes to trading, there are two big if's. 1) Does it work, and 2) Can I make it work. In the first category, I remember a dude selling a manual system for $20000. Promised the moon. I told him no way I'd spend that on an system I couldn't try. He then tried to get me to give him $2000 for a month, and I still said no. Finally we settled on a one week trial, for $200. That I went for out of curiosity. He sent it to me, and gave me his current signals. When I loaded up, there was no way, I could match his signals to the screen. I called to ask, and he said he'd lost that data. End of that story.

In the no. 2 category, I know a fellow, and subscribed to his service. It worked, and I could paper trade it fine. But the risks it entailed just didn't fit me, and I could never trade it.

So there are these two issues.

So in many way's the Viper guy's are better then many. Some insist on you giving them thousands of dollars to find out it doesn't work, or you can't make it work. The viper guy's will give you a week free trial, and then you go monthly, so you can give it up after a month.

Also they plainly tell you don't run it in the blind, but run it in conjunction with what the market may be telling you . For example if the market has a huge run, the next day may well be consolidation, and don't try and run it. At least in the other thread, Zoe insisted that wasn't valid and you should run it all the time.

I just don't see these guy's as nearly as bad as they are being made out here, and there are others that are really bad, and nothing is said.

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 max-td 
Frankfurt
 
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hey guys,
maybe we can testdrive + report more of those Autotrader from other vendors out there if someone has them available.

i dont think its meant bad or personal against a special company - its just showing how it really is after a backtest with a special product, theire rules + settings.

and our forum is still free + independend - no adds - no industry-partners - no one to take care for - but the truth.

max-td
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 Zoethecus 
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Peter2150 View Post


I just don't see these guy's as nearly as bad as they are being made out here.

The results speak for themselves. Some may think they suck and others, like you, may think otherwise.

The fact is the backtest results in this thread are set with parameters EXACTLY ACCORDING TO THE GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY VIPER in an email to subscribers and confirmed in their webinars.

The only one spinning things here is you, Peter. If you think there are other vendors who are worse than Viper, go ahead and start a thread for the benefit of the community instead of poking imaginary holes in this one.

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 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
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max-td View Post
hey guys,
maybe we can testdrive + report more of those Autotrader out there if someone has them available. i dont think its meant bad or personal against a special company - its just showing how it is after a backtest with a special product, theire rules + settings.
and our forum is still free - no adds - no industry-partners - no one to take care for - but the truth.

Max, that is exactly what I have done here without bias, spin or prejudice.

There are additional instruments to test and I will post those results as soon as I am able.

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 Dragon 
Bellingham, WA
 
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Peter2150 View Post
Also they plainly tell you don't run it in the blind, but run it in conjunction with what the market may be telling you . For example if the market has a huge run, the next day may well be consolidation, and don't try and run it. At least in the other thread, Zoe insisted that wasn't valid and you should run it all the time.

So the Viper guys say their autotrading systems should be used with price action? How do you run an AT while watching the price action? Run an ATM strat with it? I am confused about that but I am not a strat guy so I don't know how that works.

In an effort to be fair and balanced per Peter's request, one could always go back and filter out the consolidation days as no trade days. Zoe, would we still be seeing losing days if we did that?

But then that brings up an interesting point. The Viper guys tell us we shouldn't trade on Z days if we are trading in conjunction with what the market is telling us. If you can spot Z days every week or month then you don't need Viper anyway. They are assuming the trader already understands which way the market is going.

On the other hand, we all have to find a style that fits our personalities. For you Peter, this Viper style may fit everything you like because I noticed you acknowledged it a few weeks back as well. WTG to keep to a system and not change anything.

I think this happens with everyone. We don't realize that we are actually paying more attention to S/R levels, breakouts, and trendline breaks, etc., than the indicators/ systems. If we don't take a step back, we may think its the indicators we are using that are telling us when to get in, but in actuality, we just got better at reading price. We manipulated the system of indicators to work for us with price action and trick our minds into thinking that they really work when they are on our charts. In the end though, we may realize (at least I did) that most successful trades we make occur when we were watching something other than the indicator or system itself.

I guess if we know that we tricked ourselves into making a commercial system work for us, then it isn't so bad. I think the bad part is seeing someone successfully sell a product they know is faulty. As a result, some feel quite passionately that these types should be exposed for the snakes they are. I don't feel that passionately about it because I know it when I see it. Many of the uneducated or ignorant will throw money at it without thinking, so I tend to passively believe that those types may need to just pay for the product and learn the hard way because no one will convince them otherwise. I don't think the Viper guys are ultimately targeting knowledgeable guys like Peter. I mean it seems like you knew what you were getting when you bought it and are making it work for you.

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 Zoethecus 
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Dragon View Post
In an effort to be fair and balanced per Peter's request, one could always go back and filter out the consolidation days as no trade days. Zoe, would we still be seeing losing days if we did that?

With these new Scalper scripts--which are the only ones Viper is now supporting--there is no guidance to filter out chop. The scripts are to run during the recommended times except for FOMC and Non Farm Payroll news days.

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 Zoethecus 
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Another member asked me to post yesterday's results for ViperScalperTF. The parameters were set exactly as recommended by Rich Staiton and set forth in the above post on this instrument.

TF hit the max loss for the day.

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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max-td View Post
hey guys,
maybe we can testdrive + report more of those Autotrader from other vendors out there if someone has them available.

i dont think its meant bad or personal against a special company - its just showing how it really is after a backtest with a special product, theire rules + settings.

and our forum is still free + independend - no adds - no industry-partners - no one to take care for - but the truth.

The following is my personal opinion from personal experience. I do not receive compensation from nor have an interest in any company mentioned nor do I have a personal ax to grind .

There are at least two companies that I am aware of that publish performance statistics of commercial systems.

Attain Capital Management Commodity Trading Systems Rankings | Futures System Trading | Attain Capital Management

Futures Truth
Welcome To Futures Truth Magazine

Automated Systems work up until they stop working. Depending on when you measure performance, the same system can look like a winner or a loser. I have never seen one that continued to perform over any extended periods.

If a system vendor offers you a free trial, offer them a better deal, they provide you with their system, train you how to use it and you will split the trading profits with them. See how many accept your offer.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 Pava 
Studio City CA
 
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I lived in a bunker like compound underneath the earth surface for a few years...those were the best days of my life...you cannot imagine what a complete silence does to your nervous system...

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  #33 (permalink)
 TheWizard 
Houston, TX
 
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Pava View Post
I lived in a bunker like compound underneath the earth surface for a few years...those were the best days of my life...you cannot imagine what a complete silence does to your nervous system...

I could sure use some of that! How do I get there from here? Do they rent by the day, week, month or year (ha ha). Getting older & running a retail biz takes its toll on the nervous system and I don't drink, so my options are very limited. Do you miss it?

After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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 cory 
the coin hunter
virginia
 
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Zoethecus View Post
Another member asked me to post yesterday's results for ViperScalperTF. The parameters were set exactly as recommended by Rich Staiton and set forth in the above post on this instrument.

TF hit the max loss for the day.

aww c'mon did you consistently flip their charts up side down or what.

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 Pava 
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TheWizard View Post
I could sure use some of that! How do I get there from here? Do they rent by the day, week, month or year (ha ha). Getting older & running a retail biz takes its toll on the nervous system and I don't drink, so my options are very limited. Do you miss it?

It was a long time ago and far far away...yes I am missing the feeling of well being and peace of the place....

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 Zoethecus 
United States of America
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
The following is my personal opinion from personal experience. I do not receive compensation from nor have an interest in any company mentioned nor do I have a personal ax to grind .

There are at least two companies that I am aware of that publish performance statistics of commercial systems.

Attain Capital Management Commodity Trading Systems Rankings | Futures System Trading | Attain Capital Management

Futures Truth
Welcome To Futures Truth Magazine

Automated Systems work up until they stop working. Depending on when you measure performance, the same system can look like a winner or a loser.I have never seen one that continued to perform over any extended periods.

If a system vendor offers you a free trial, offer them a better deal, they provide you with their system, train you how to use it and you will split the trading profits with them. See how many accept your offer.

My guess is enough to fill the hole of a donut.

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 Zoethecus 
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cory View Post
aww c'mon did you consistently flip their charts up side down or what.

It's uncanny, isn't it?

Looks like the perfect system to fade.

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  #38 (permalink)
 Dagonet 
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Zoe,

I'm embarassed to admit I was a subscriber to the ViperAT for a couple of months. I appreciate your research and evaluation - only wish I had found your posts prior to subscribing. In the event anyone else posting here - who has not actually used the autotrader strategies live - doubts the validity of your evaluation and observations, I can assure you that I am in full agreement with your conclusions.

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  #39 (permalink)
 jgreene 
Palm City, Fl
 
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Thank you Zoe for you fine review of Viper Trading Systems. I too was a subscriber to their Viper and then autotrading software. Although I did well in the initial two months after release of TF it soon fell apart in Dec and has been downhill ever since. The other products are crap also. Thankfully I was in sim on everything except TF in the beginning.

What angers me the most was no guidance as to when these ATer's should be used, other then big news days. Do we look at pre-market, last 5, 10 or 30 days, etc. Paying $299 + $99 should garner more guidance then just don't trade on certain days. I can do better playing craps.

Their latest products, Scalper and AutoassistCrap, are doomed also. Take a close look at the spreadsheet they sent out for Scalper and you will find the risk/reward ratio is very poor.

The initial Viper System I find somewhat useful. For me. it makes sense visually and can be downloaded for free at MyPivots.com (another great site!). I am playing with other indicators and will report back if there is anything worthwhile.

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 Zoethecus 
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jgreene View Post
Their latest products, Scalper and AutoassistCrap, are doomed also. Take a close look at the spreadsheet they sent out for Scalper and you will find the risk/reward ratio is very poor.

The AT systems using Viper's official guidance have an average win rate between 50-56%, which is nowhere near what they need to be profitable with those risk/reward numbers, the best of which is 6/5 or risk $120 to make $100. (And that is before the rake of commissions and a $299 monthly fee.)

A trading system with a negative risk/reward is analogous to "laying" odds 100% of the time as if betting on a favorite in a sporting event. It will lead to ruin in short order.

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MadTr8r
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Hey guys, I enjoy the exchange of opinion on Viper Trading and their various services. I was a premium susbscriber for quite a while, but not because Im new to trading. I currently trade Futures, Options on stocks and currency futures, precisely the instruments Viper records on all their videos. Nevertheless I was intrigued and I was looking for an Auto trading system that would trade a few hours in the morning while I focused on stocks. I can only watch so many charts at once so I thought lets give it a shot. I spent a few months in the Trading Chat room, the chat moderators would talk about setups and market conditions pretty vanilla type commentary in a trading chat. They would constantly bring up live screenshots of the Auto Trader trading Crude or Gold, personally I use Squawk Box and various technical indicators on Tradestation, but when I joined I installed all the viper indicators etc... and I thought lets see what kind of edge this Viper package would provide. There is no magic grail I'll be the first to acknowledge that, trading is all about probabilities and having less losers than winners and guess what you come out ahead. Ive traded successfully on my own so I wasnt looking for a system to fix things or make me a fortune, I was looking for an extra set of eyes to allow me to trade more instruments per day. After a couple months of learning the setups levels and all the Viper techniques combined with their indicators I came to the conclusion that their software simply does not provide any value that you cannot obtain for free. I hope any newbies looking for the way steer clear of this software and do not trade real money accounts with their auto setups or manual Viper indicators they, you will come out losing. Even a lousy trading strategy or method can be profitable in the 50% range, many services advertise 70% or better signal accuracy or trading results Viper is neither copying a simple Heiken Ashi candle color you can get for free on any software and using Floor or Camarilla Pivots will provide you far better results for alot less money. When I did ask them if their red and blue candles colors were Heiken Ashi they claimed it was an advanced formula they could not share with me. LOL! Guess what I did well I simply took my Tradestation chart and Ninja chart same timframe side by side and used the Heiken Ashi along the Viper and it was nearly identical. I hope any new traders or struggling traders find this review useful, Im not here to bash any quality companies selling valid training or software but I do feel as an experienced trader that has seen it all it is my duty to pass on my opinion of indicators and software that serves no purpose other than to part traders from their money. I never asked for a refund of my membership fees I simply cancelled my subscription, I consider what I paid for a few months a cheap tuition to measure the quality of the teacher and the class. Good trading all!

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  #42 (permalink)
 sharmas 
Auckland
 
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Hi MadTr8r

Would you mind sharing the set up and indicators that you used to see the similarities with Viper.

sharmas

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 Cristian 
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https://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/viper-trading-systems/

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