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Jigsaw Trading's Peter Davies - Ask Me Anything (AMA)

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  #501 (permalink)
 tulanch 
Salt Lake City, UT
 
Experience: Intermediate
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JigSaw is great - awesome, wonderful nothing can replace it, but I recently became unable to use Ninja so I started looking at other trading software available to me from my broker. I dove into Sierra Charts. Their trading DOM is pretty cool....specifically the pull and stack ask/bid columns.

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  #502 (permalink)
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emini2000 View Post
Hey Pete,

Been looking at Jigsaw several years on and off, and always been fascinated by it. Where would one start not having your software yet to get a good foundation of using the DOMs just to get a feel for it? I watched your video where you were trading the 4 markets in correlation, I think Dow, Russel, NQ and ES and just trading by how they moved in relation to one another. I also signed up for your free email lessons, so I know that's a start too.

Anyway, just looking for some direction and foundation to see if I can really get a feel of how to trade with Jigsaw.

One more question. Do you trade just using the DOMs? I know you put out the pre market report with levels etc. So do you use Jigsaw in relation to levels and charts also? And any other general info you could give me or point me to to start the journey.

Thanks!

The trick is to layer on one thing at a time.

It's like riding a bicycle - start slowly and as you build your skills, bring in more elements.

For Jigsaw, the starting point is the drills in module 2 on the members page. That's where you start teaching yourself to read the ups and downs of the order flow.

Intraday, I just use the vista chart but mostly I use the intraday volume profile and the other stuff on the ladder. I do like to prep before the market, so I can have an idea where people might jump into the market.

That's not to say charts are bad, it's just that every time I walk into a prop firm, no-one is paying much attention to them and that sort of thing rubs off on you.

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  #503 (permalink)
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tulanch View Post
JigSaw is great - awesome, wonderful nothing can replace it, but I recently became unable to use Ninja so I started looking at other trading software available to me from my broker. I dove into Sierra Charts. Their trading DOM is pretty cool....specifically the pull and stack ask/bid columns.

Jigsaw is a stand along platform. So it'll hook into your feed. In fact, you get way more functionality with Jigsaw stand alone.

It is true that Sierra build their business by copying innovation from other platforms. But they aren't traders, so while it looks similar, it doesn't flow the same.

Sierra will also not be there to answer your trading questions, spend time on skype with you, they don't have the education and they don't have the analytics.

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  #504 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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tulanch View Post
JigSaw is great - awesome, wonderful nothing can replace it, but I recently became unable to use Ninja so I started looking at other trading software available to me from my broker. I dove into Sierra Charts. Their trading DOM is pretty cool....specifically the pull and stack ask/bid columns.


Obviously Sierra DOM is pretty cool, they copied it from Jigsaw

I used Sierra many years ago and despite the platform was/is in fact good and fast, the learning curve can be quite steep.
Of all the trading/chart platforms out there, Sierra is for sure the most geek one, meaning, you need to be a computer/software savvy to work with it.

But the question that needs to be made is if all those options and customization and even all the tools packed on it, bring in fact any value to the trader?
A person that is starting to learn trading and lets focus on order flow trading since this is the theme here, if you add to that, learning how to work with your trading platform... things can go wrong pretty fast. You start spending more time "playing" with the platform than learn to trade.

Only after taking John Grady's course I could see how addictive charts are.
It seems I'm hearing him saying right now... 'you guys just can't seem to let them go'...

This is one of the advantages we have with Jigsaw, NO CHARTS TO MESS WITH! Yeah, there is Vista charts but they are really just a way to help us looking at where prices were a couple minutes ago or if that big volume up there has been there for long or not since we did not spot it before. Overall, Vista is just a heatmap of the past.

Jigsaw is an execution platform. Its depth and sales is the best in the business and offers every thing one needs to trade.
You only need to connect the datafeed and the damn thing starts showing all volume being traded without you need to spend half an hour setting it up. This, for a new trader, starting to learn the business, should be priceless.

And we can't forget that with Jigsaw daytradr we get access to Journalytix services which is an awesome tool for following the stats of our trades and journaling each one of those trades so we can analyze them later.

And on a personal note, Pete has a lot more patience than the guys at Sierra.
He has been always there for clients (me) with not only Jigsaw questions but above all, trading questions.

So if a person is starting to learn this business, need help in how to trade and also need an easy platform to trade from, it needs to make their home work first before becoming hypnotized with all the shiny lights that exist out there.

So... yeah... Sierra is cool but... Jigsaw is the coolest

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  #505 (permalink)
emini2000
Atlanta GA USA
 
 
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Pete,

If one has NT, would you still recommend the stand alone? For 1k one can open a NT account and they give use of the basic NT chart features free. Does the feed for that work for the standalone Jigsaw also? I'm not sure what feed NT uses, but can that feed be used simultaneously with both NT and standalone Jigsaw?

Is everything that is shown on your product page, daytrdr platform, sim, smart gauges, auction vista, etc, included for the price or are some of them add-ons?

Also, could you explain what this means exactly: * TO USE THE ORDER FLOW SUITE FOR LIVE TRADING A SUBSCRIPTION IS REQUIRED. $500 ANNUALLY OR $50 MONTHLY. Does that mean without that subscription I can't actually place the orders through the Jigsaw software, but would have to us the NT software? What is the advantage/disadvantage of that?

It appears that the only difference between price levels of Jigsaw is the level of training included, correct? Can the further education be bought separately over time?

Thanks for you help.



DionysusToast View Post
The trick is to layer on one thing at a time.

It's like riding a bicycle - start slowly and as you build your skills, bring in more elements.

For Jigsaw, the starting point is the drills in module 2 on the members page. That's where you start teaching yourself to read the ups and downs of the order flow.

Intraday, I just use the vista chart but mostly I use the intraday volume profile and the other stuff on the ladder. I do like to prep before the market, so I can have an idea where people might jump into the market.

That's not to say charts are bad, it's just that every time I walk into a prop firm, no-one is paying much attention to them and that sort of thing rubs off on you.


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  #506 (permalink)
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emini2000 View Post
Pete,

If one has NT, would you still recommend the stand alone? For 1k one can open a NT account and they give use of the basic NT chart features free. Does the feed for that work for the standalone Jigsaw also? I'm not sure what feed NT uses, but can that feed be used simultaneously with both NT and standalone Jigsaw?

Is everything that is shown on your product page, daytrdr platform, sim, smart gauges, auction vista, etc, included for the price or are some of them add-ons?

Also, could you explain what this means exactly: * TO USE THE ORDER FLOW SUITE FOR LIVE TRADING A SUBSCRIPTION IS REQUIRED. $500 ANNUALLY OR $50 MONTHLY. Does that mean without that subscription I can't actually place the orders through the Jigsaw software, but would have to us the NT software? What is the advantage/disadvantage of that?

It appears that the only difference between price levels of Jigsaw is the level of training included, correct? Can the further education be bought separately over time?

Thanks for you help.

If you have NT8, I'd use the daytradr bridge & save yourself some connection fees. You can use the bridge to NT8 and Tradovate and MT5 direct to CQG/Rithmic/GAIN all at the same time and on 2 PCs

For Jigsaw, we keep it as cheap as possible for traders that are not live - so SIM, Demo, Combines are all free to trade. You can also use the tools for analysis and enter orders via Ninja.

But like a gym that only sells lifetime licenses - and then goes bust, there needs to be some sort of ongoing fee to maintain the product. Hence the nominal $50.

For live trading there is a small fee. Note that unlike many of our competitors, our customers tend to trade a decent amount of volume. One of the things I discuss 1 on 1 with customers is setting the conditions for going live. We want people to be at the point where the potential for profit outweigh any consideration of that nominal fee.

For the education, you can add later if you want.

The most important thing though - is you are in touch with a network of traders. You can ask questions. You are not alone. For anyone considering Jigsaw, this is usually the number 1 factor in jumping on board.

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  #507 (permalink)
emini2000
Atlanta GA USA
 
 
Posts: 278 since Aug 2013
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Shot you a PM.


DionysusToast View Post
If you have NT8, I'd use the daytradr bridge & save yourself some connection fees. You can use the bridge to NT8 and Tradovate and MT5 direct to CQG/Rithmic/GAIN all at the same time and on 2 PCs

For Jigsaw, we keep it as cheap as possible for traders that are not live - so SIM, Demo, Combines are all free to trade. You can also use the tools for analysis and enter orders via Ninja.

But like a gym that only sells lifetime licenses - and then goes bust, there needs to be some sort of ongoing fee to maintain the product. Hence the nominal $50.

For live trading there is a small fee. Note that unlike many of our competitors, our customers tend to trade a decent amount of volume. One of the things I discuss 1 on 1 with customers is setting the conditions for going live. We want people to be at the point where the potential for profit outweigh any consideration of that nominal fee.

For the education, you can add later if you want.

The most important thing though - is you are in touch with a network of traders. You can ask questions. You are not alone. For anyone considering Jigsaw, this is usually the number 1 factor in jumping on board.


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  #508 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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mauriz View Post
hi Peter,

i have seen a trader that says he pays 30k for month for his market data, he showed me some big trade i cannot see with other professional market data like CQG or IQ FEED, do you have any experience about that ?

Holy. What the heck would he have access to??

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  #509 (permalink)
emini2000
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spideysteve View Post
Holy. What the heck would he have access to??

It better be making him at least $60k a month whatever it is. lol.

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  #510 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

Please check out this additional thread specifically for the Journalytix trade analytics and journaling product from Jigsaw Trading:



Details will be posted in that thread about an upcoming webinar that discusses the importance of trade analytics, and covers the features of the Journalytix product.

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 kalalex 
Up the Ladder, CA
 
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@DionysusToast

If I have a live trading account with any of NT8 compatible broker,,,let's say Interactive Brokers,,,do you think I can run the stand alone Jigsaw on a different computer(with the same log-in) from a PC that runs NT8?

This way I don't have to pay extra for live datafeed unless the $50 if I opt to trade out of your DOM?

Also I want to trade from your DOM do you have any broker that you favor?

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  #512 (permalink)
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kalalex View Post
@DionysusToast

If I have a live trading account with any of NT8 compatible broker,,,let's say Interactive Brokers,,,do you think I can run the stand alone Jigsaw on a different computer(with the same log-in) from a PC that runs NT8?

This way I don't have to pay extra for live datafeed unless the $50 if I opt to trade out of your DOM?

Also I want to trade from your DOM do you have any broker that you favor?

You can run Jigsaw on 2 PCs no problem at all - but you will need a datafeed.

If you use NT8 and daytradr bridge, there's no additional data feeds to pay. That's why the bridge exists. The moment you connect to the same connection from a 2nd PC - you get hit with data fees.

Saying that - I am not sure if you can connect to IB 2 times from different PCs. There are still some vendors that allow it - I can't say who because a certain company will report them to the CME and all their customers will get hit with 2nd connection fees.

As for brokers - I will he shot if I recommend a broker - if you email me - same for the people allowing 2 connections!

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 kalalex 
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DionysusToast View Post
You can run Jigsaw on 2 PCs no problem at all - but you will need a datafeed.

If you use NT8 and daytradr bridge, there's no additional data feeds to pay. That's why the bridge exists. The moment you connect to the same connection from a 2nd PC - you get hit with data fees.

Saying that - I am not sure if you can connect to IB 2 times from different PCs. There are still some vendors that allow it - I can't say who because a certain company will report them to the CME and all their customers will get hit with 2nd connection fees.

As for brokers - I will he shot if I recommend a broker - if you email me - same for the people allowing 2 connections!


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  #514 (permalink)
 mackm 
Washington DC
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Pete,

I'm trying to find where the sound files for "Order filled" etc. are located. I know where the alert sound files are, but I just can't find those for order placements and executions. Thanks in advance for your help.

Mike

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  #515 (permalink)
 madankumars 
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Is it possible to access the Jigsaw Bid/Ask snapshot column via code in Ninjatrader?

I don't know whether the jigsaw platform allows API access at all, but if not, how do we compute the numbers in that Bid/Ask Snapshot columns... any code samples would be awesome !

thanks a lot traders and coders....

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  #516 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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@DionysusToast

Hi Pete,
I have copied this guys question here ( @avalo ). It is his third time posting it and they keep getting deleted as each time they are new threads in the incorrect forums (Trading journals, Elite Trading Journal, Reviews of Brokers and Data Feeds).


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  #517 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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You can't delete hashtags at the moment - and there's really no reason to delete them. They are quite benign.

Saying that - if we could understand the reason someone would want to delete a tag - we may well agree there is a reason. It's just a matter of perspective.

Still - we do have a 'merge' tags feature planned - so that if you don't use auto/complete or the "click recent tags".

So while we do merge tags, we'll look at the delete too!

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  #518 (permalink)
 avalo 
Los Angeles
 
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I guess my request is unusual. I made a mistake by putting too many hashtags in the drop down menu on the first day I used Journalytics. When I use it now I have to look through a list of non-useful hashtags to find the ones that apply. It's manageable I guess, but if it were possible to repeat my first day I would do it differently. No worries though, it will work out. Journalytix is the best trade journaling program I’ve found. Thanks,
Tom

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 Lukebaires 
Buenos Aires
 
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Hello, this is more a tech question related to daytradr as a software. So I want to know if the software is single threaded or multi threaded, I only use the DOM and I monitor 4 to 5 markets at once. I have noticed during some news releases or some heavy amount of orders coming throu the market freezes a lil bit. Not a problem at all really, but since I am building a new computer from scratch and I need a new CPU I want this rig to be optimized for using NT8 and daytradr.

Lucas

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 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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multi

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 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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I have a question about a trader on the Leaderboard - mark101rrrr. The majority of his scalps are either 1 second or 0 time in the market. How is it possible to be in a trade for 0 time? There are sequential strings of these trades. I trade live and once in a while something like that will occur. But it's very infrequent. I've attached a screenshot of his trades. I'm curious because I also scalp the CL and do very well (thanks to John Grady). I tracked mark101rrrrs' trades over a period of a month, used market reply to see if any of them were feasible. I couldn't find a single trade out of 100 that entered and exited in 0 time. Is this a function of the demo account? I trade live but market replay should at least mimic a couple of these trades.

Would be interested to know what you think.

Also, what is the EXPF market type? Is that another exchange?

Thanks

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 asyx 
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some softwares do not include in their messages if a instrument is a futures contract, stock or option etc.
In DayTradr this is then shown as EXPF. "external platform".

Sim and backtest results are always questionable. In DayTradr you also get a fill of thousands of DAX contracts at a level without problem when I was testing it...

Regarding the ultrafast fill: perhaps it would make sense if Jigsaw built in some delay in regard to the simulated order execution.

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 Big Mike 
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Tip


Just a quick note that we've renamed Pete's username on the site from DionysusToast to @Jigsaw Trading. This is just an FYI to avoid any confusion.




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  #524 (permalink)
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Lukebaires View Post
Hello, this is more a tech question related to daytradr as a software. So I want to know if the software is single threaded or multi threaded, I only use the DOM and I monitor 4 to 5 markets at once. I have noticed during some news releases or some heavy amount of orders coming throu the market freezes a lil bit. Not a problem at all really, but since I am building a new computer from scratch and I need a new CPU I want this rig to be optimized for using NT8 and daytradr.

Lucas

Hey Lucas

I've been missing these - thanks to Spamdrain not notifying me!

daytradr is truly multi-threaded. In our architecture, we do it like this...

- each inbound feed is managed on it's own thread (each L1/L2/History subscription)
- data is then disseminated to tools - like position monitor, depth & sales etc. - onto it's own thread. That means that an instance of a tool like D&S which uses L1, L2 as well as position/order subscription - has 1 thread per set of inbound data.
- UI is on a seperate thread - so in an instance of depth & sales - we may have 6 inbound data threads and a single UI thread rendering data - but the UI thread is throttled to only repaint changed areas

We do the same thing for other internal operations like strategies, volume stops - where any 1 instance has it's own thread.

I presume you built your PC already - but it's still worth putting out there. If you use something like Process Hacker - you'll see the threads created/killed as it's running.

Now - when the market gets heavy, there's a simple way to tell if the data is lagging or if it's CPU/UI bound.

If an app appears to slow down, then click the top of one of the windows & try to move it. If it won't move - you hit a CPU/UI limit. If it does move, it's a lag in the data getting to you.

The data lags manifest in 2 ways
- a difference in reporting between L1 and L2 pricing - as L2 is much heavier, it can lag. This is less normal on CQG driven feeds as CQG delivers the 2 together
- overall slowdown

Each data provider goes through periods where they get data issues. In my experience, they come out of the blue, tend to last 1 or 2 weeks and tend to hit many people at the same time.

So - check task manager for CPU usage & try to drag a window if you see a lag in an app.

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  #525 (permalink)
 Lukebaires 
Buenos Aires
 
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Hey Lucas

I've been missing these - thanks to Spamdrain not notifying me!

daytradr is truly multi-threaded. In our architecture, we do it like this...

- each inbound feed is managed on it's own thread (each L1/L2/History subscription)
- data is then disseminated to tools - like position monitor, depth & sales etc. - onto it's own thread. That means that an instance of a tool like D&S which uses L1, L2 as well as position/order subscription - has 1 thread per set of inbound data.
- UI is on a seperate thread - so in an instance of depth & sales - we may have 6 inbound data threads and a single UI thread rendering data - but the UI thread is throttled to only repaint changed areas

We do the same thing for other internal operations like strategies, volume stops - where any 1 instance has it's own thread.

I presume you built your PC already - but it's still worth putting out there. If you use something like Process Hacker - you'll see the threads created/killed as it's running.

Now - when the market gets heavy, there's a simple way to tell if the data is lagging or if it's CPU/UI bound.

If an app appears to slow down, then click the top of one of the windows & try to move it. If it won't move - you hit a CPU/UI limit. If it does move, it's a lag in the data getting to you.

The data lags manifest in 2 ways
- a difference in reporting between L1 and L2 pricing - as L2 is much heavier, it can lag. This is less normal on CQG driven feeds as CQG delivers the 2 together
- overall slowdown

Each data provider goes through periods where they get data issues. In my experience, they come out of the blue, tend to last 1 or 2 weeks and tend to hit many people at the same time.

So - check task manager for CPU usage & try to drag a window if you see a lag in an app.

Awesome detailed reply, thanks Jigsaw!!!

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avalo View Post
I guess my request is unusual. I made a mistake by putting too many hashtags in the drop down menu on the first day I used Journalytics. When I use it now I have to look through a list of non-useful hashtags to find the ones that apply. It's manageable I guess, but if it were possible to repeat my first day I would do it differently. No worries though, it will work out. Journalytix is the best trade journaling program I’ve found. Thanks,
Tom


We are still planning to allow tag maintenance but as I'm sure you are aware - we have a lot of stuff in the pipeline.

What has been done is we've changed the UI to show the most recently used tags at the bottom of the journal entry page - so the ones you don't use will either be at the end or off the bottom of the page.


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asyx View Post
some softwares do not include in their messages if a instrument is a futures contract, stock or option etc.
In DayTradr this is then shown as EXPF. "external platform".

Sim and backtest results are always questionable. In DayTradr you also get a fill of thousands of DAX contracts at a level without problem when I was testing it...

Regarding the ultrafast fill: perhaps it would make sense if Jigsaw built in some delay in regard to the simulated order execution.

What's happening with EXPF - is the trades are from a platform that does not hold the instrument type, we tag it as EXPF.

For the large fills on SIM - if you put in a market order for 10,000 on DAX - you will slip all the way into next week. The fill issue comes on limit orders where the REAL market moves down through your big limit order. We could either leave the limit order unfilled there or fill it. We currently fill it.

So - question - do you think the best solution is to fill some & cancel the rest? Or leave a limit bid above the market? Or other?

Genuinely interested in your thoughts.

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 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Hope Mike is OK with this. For those on JX - we uploaded phase 1 of ProfitSeeker today...

It's a very nice way to navigate through your trading data - with drill downs etc - there's some ideas below on how to navigate around and review the impact of trading plan rules like "3 strikes and you stop.


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  #529 (permalink)
noriegaricky
San Diego, CA USA
 
 
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Hey,

Sorry that I can't help with your questions. But can you help me understand how to understand the snapshot? I know that it shows the numbers of bids or offers that are stacking up or pulling out, but I still don't know how determine if something is pulling out or stacking up. I'm especially confused by the negative numbers that show up on the snapshot column. Thanks again!

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 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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Jigsaw Trading View Post

For the large fills on SIM - if you put in a market order for 10,000 on DAX - you will slip all the way into next week. The fill issue comes on limit orders where the REAL market moves down through your big limit order. We could either leave the limit order unfilled there or fill it. We currently fill it.

So - question - do you think the best solution is to fill some & cancel the rest? Or leave a limit bid above the market? Or other?

Genuinely interested in your thoughts.

IMO the SIM should be as realistic as it could be.

We never know how our order would impact market behavior.
Once, in a thin market, my 10 contracts had an impact.
It doesn´t have to be 10.000. When you look at the ES sometimes there trade only 30 contracts at a level and then price reverses.
That´s why I think in SIM you should only get what was actually trading because that we know for sure.

At the time when I was looking at this nothing slipped into the next period.

As said, it´s some while ago that I looked at this. Perhaps you have already improved the app.
I tested also with ES and CL and put in some hundred contracts over several levels.
I got not only more contracts than actually traded in a specific time period but while the market was moving up and down through my limit orders the Application had problems to calculate the correct PnL.
The final result was wrong and other stats. like drawdown, too.

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 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

We've just updated the special Elite Offers, as @Jigsaw Trading has updated their offers available to Elite Members:





If you are interested in the Daytradr 10% discount, click here:
10% off Daytradr by Jigsaw

If you are interested in the Journalytix 10% discount, click here:
10% off Journalytix by Jigsaw

You can find all the available Elite Offers here:
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Thank you to @Jigsaw Trading for their continued support as a site sponsor of futures io.

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MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
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phantomtrader View Post
I have a question about a trader on the Leaderboard - mark101rrrr. The majority of his scalps are either 1 second or 0 time in the market. How is it possible to be in a trade for 0 time? There are sequential strings of these trades. I trade live and once in a while something like that will occur. But it's very infrequent. I've attached a screenshot of his trades. I'm curious because I also scalp the CL and do very well (thanks to John Grady). I tracked mark101rrrrs' trades over a period of a month, used market reply to see if any of them were feasible. I couldn't find a single trade out of 100 that entered and exited in 0 time. Is this a function of the demo account? I trade live but market replay should at least mimic a couple of these trades.

Would be interested to know what you think.

Also, what is the EXPF market type? Is that another exchange?

Thanks

This is a good question.
I get in and out in as few as 3 secs at times with 7-15s representing faster markets and things working out.
I wonder how he is trading.
Is he simply flipping out bid/offer?

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 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
This is a good question.
I get in and out in as few as 3 secs at times with 7-15s representing faster markets and things working out.
I wonder how he is trading.
Is he simply flipping out bid/offer?

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

The fact that I never received an answer either here or in the Jigsaw member area says more about Jigsaw than about this trader. That's all I'm going to say about that. I sent you a PM.

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MichaelFlowTrader
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phantomtrader View Post
The fact that I never received an answer either here or in the Jigsaw member area says more about Jigsaw than about this trader. That's all I'm going to say about that. I sent you a PM.

He's definitely flipping out on the bid/offer. Zero seconds might be possible if he perfectly has his entries down. Seems sketch but possible. He might be flipping out during sudden price spikes. I wish I knew him!

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  #535 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
This is a good question.
I get in and out in as few as 3 secs at times with 7-15s representing faster markets and things working out.
I wonder how he is trading.
Is he simply flipping out bid/offer?

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

Looking at the screenshot of the trades of that guy, time in does say 0 time but if you look at the entry and exit times, you can see the trade took 1 second.
It's very easy to have 1 second trades and even less than that.
Just set a strategy for 1 tick stop and 1 tick target. I guarantee most trades in CL, NQ, or any other fast pace market will be in fact less than 1 second.
You can open a position and 5 milliseconds later you're out.

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 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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arnie View Post
Looking at the screenshot of the trades of that guy, time in does say 0 time but if you look at the entry and exit times, you can see the trade took 1 second.
It's very easy to have 1 second trades and even less than that.
Just set a strategy for 1 tick stop and 1 tick target. I guarantee most trades in CL, NQ, or any other fast pace market will be in fact less than 1 second.
You can open a position and 5 milliseconds later you're out.

You're right, but that doesn't account for strings of positive trades very close together in time and price - all winners. Logically, there should be some losers randomly distributed. But there isn't. If you download all the trades, month over month, it's very clear.

It's probably an EA BOT in Metatrader 4 or 5. There's a bunch of them over there in their Marketplace. Whether they get filled or not is the question. In the CL it's entirely possible that they do get filled though.

In any case, it's somewhat disturbing that the owner of Jigsaw, who sponsors the Leaderboard, doesn't answer a simple question. If it's some secret sauce, then just say so and be done with it.

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 arnie 
Europe
 
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phantomtrader View Post
You're right, but that doesn't account for strings of positive trades very close together in time and price - all winners. Logically, there should be some losers randomly distributed. But there isn't. If you download all the trades, month over month, it's very clear.

It's probably an EA BOT in Metatrader 4 or 5. There's a bunch of them over there in their Marketplace. Whether they get filled or not is the question. In the CL it's entirely possible that they do get filled though.

In any case, it's somewhat disturbing that the owner of Jigsaw, who sponsors the Leaderboard, doesn't answer a simple question. If it's some secret sauce, then just say so and be done with it.

There are a couple of hundred people in the leaderboard I believe. Each one trade their own way.
You're assuming Peter knows how people in there are trading.

That is what's cool in the leaderboard, it doesn't care what and how you trade. It's just pure consistency of your trades.
You can trade fully automated or fully discretionary, it just doesn't care.

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  #538 (permalink)
 hadamkov 
Prague Czech Republic
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, daytradr
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Hi,

I am in no way qualified to speak for Peter, reprobate or defend him but just to maybe shed some light...

Not long ago all Jigsaw customers received an e-mail with upgrade and the following apology (I hope I am not breaking some rule regarding Jigsaw communication with customers and I hope Peter would not mind me posting it here:


"...Some of you may remember a couple of years ago, I decided to take off to an ancient Farmhouse in the UK and work from there. Great plan, terrible internet. This year, I'm in a wonderful ancient house in the UK again and this time I checked ahead that the internet would be OK. It seems my version of OK and theirs is somewhat different and although the surroundings are serene, the internet is dial up speed!

For those of you wondering where I was on the live chat or why the blog was so quiet - now you know. I'll be back to the office on 1st Sept. In the meantime, I'm making the most of the slow internet speed!

Good Trading!

Peter Davies
Jigsaw Trading"

It may partly explain his silence (not the questions regarding the funny trading statistics on Leaderboard).

All the best.
Hana

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hadamkov View Post
Hi,

I am in no way qualified to speak for Peter, reprobate or defend him but just to maybe shed some light...

Not long ago all Jigsaw customers received an e-mail with upgrade and the following apology (I hope I am not breaking some rule regarding Jigsaw communication with customers and I hope Peter would not mind me posting it here:


"...Some of you may remember a couple of years ago, I decided to take off to an ancient Farmhouse in the UK and work from there. Great plan, terrible internet. This year, I'm in a wonderful ancient house in the UK again and this time I checked ahead that the internet would be OK. It seems my version of OK and theirs is somewhat different and although the surroundings are serene, the internet is dial up speed!

For those of you wondering where I was on the live chat or why the blog was so quiet - now you know. I'll be back to the office on 1st Sept. In the meantime, I'm making the most of the slow internet speed!

Good Trading!

Peter Davies
Jigsaw Trading"

It may partly explain his silence (not the questions regarding the funny trading statistics on Leaderboard).

All the best.
Hana

Hana

You are now officially qualified to speak on my behalf.

I am on an extended break in the UK, which I do every 2 years, to let the kids see how it is to live in another country.

My mistake again was to book countryside and expect 1st world interweb.

Lesson learnt.

Pete

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  #540 (permalink)
mattjack9708
Wisconsin
 
 
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phantomtrader View Post
I have a question about a trader on the Leaderboard - mark101rrrr. The majority of his scalps are either 1 second or 0 time in the market. How is it possible to be in a trade for 0 time? There are sequential strings of these trades. I trade live and once in a while something like that will occur. But it's very infrequent. I've attached a screenshot of his trades. I'm curious because I also scalp the CL and do very well (thanks to John Grady). I tracked mark101rrrrs' trades over a period of a month, used market reply to see if any of them were feasible. I couldn't find a single trade out of 100 that entered and exited in 0 time. Is this a function of the demo account? I trade live but market replay should at least mimic a couple of these trades.

Would be interested to know what you think.

Also, what is the EXPF market type? Is that another exchange?

Thanks

Hi,

How long did it take you to become profitable after taking John's course? Did you take just the basic course or intermediate course/webinar? I'm currently picking out a course to study.

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 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
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mattjack9708 View Post
Hi,

How long did it take you to become profitable after taking John's course? Did you take just the basic course or intermediate course/webinar? I'm currently picking out a course to study.

If you want to learn to scalp you should plan on taking the entire course including the live webinars. You need to put in a lot of screen time and use market replay. I think it probably took me longer than most of his students to develop an intuition for the setups - over a year at least. Also, I've programmed my own scalping strategy and use the DOM with it. Everyone is going to develop their own method eventually. Just be prepared to spend a lot of time on it.

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  #542 (permalink)
 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
Experience: Beginner
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arnie View Post
Looking at the screenshot of the trades of that guy, time in does say 0 time but if you look at the entry and exit times, you can see the trade took 1 second.
It's very easy to have 1 second trades and even less than that.
Just set a strategy for 1 tick stop and 1 tick target. I guarantee most trades in CL, NQ, or any other fast pace market will be in fact less than 1 second.
You can open a position and 5 milliseconds later you're out.

Have you ever tried this? The question is not if it is possible for someone with the right infrastructure but for a retail guy with Daytradr and get a positive result. And it´s not.
When you look at the leaderboard, almost all the guys don´t count for commissions...
They don´t really trade.
Since several years I am with Jigsaw. And even with them SIM is SIM and reality is reality.

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 arnie 
Europe
 
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asyx View Post
Have you ever tried this? The question is not if it is possible for someone with the right infrastructure but for a retail guy with Daytradr and get a positive result. And it´s not.
When you look at the leaderboard, almost all the guys don´t count for commissions...
They don´t really trade.
Since several years I am with Jigsaw. And even with them SIM is SIM and reality is reality.

I did not say it's a valid strategy.
I said it's possible to have 1 sec trades and even less than 1 second.

Within Journalytix you can set the commissions you pay per side, per lot.
This allows you to have the exact net pnl of your trades and see if your strategy is in fact valid under a live market or not.
If the people that are on the leaderboard use the tools available on Journalytix or not... well, they are free to use what they want. The tools are there...

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 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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arnie View Post
I did not say it's a valid strategy.
I said it's possible to have 1 sec trades and even less than 1 second.

Within Journalytix you can set the commissions you pay per side, per lot.
This allows you to have the exact net pnl of your trades and see if your strategy is in fact valid under a live market or not.
If the people that are on the leaderboard use the tools available on Journalytix or not... well, they are free to use what they want. The tools are there...

yep.

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 xiaosi 
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: JIGSAW/SIERRA CHART
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arnie View Post
Looking at the screenshot of the trades of that guy, time in does say 0 time but if you look at the entry and exit times, you can see the trade took 1 second.
It's very easy to have 1 second trades and even less than that.
Just set a strategy for 1 tick stop and 1 tick target. I guarantee most trades in CL, NQ, or any other fast pace market will be in fact less than 1 second.
You can open a position and 5 milliseconds later you're out.

This is all easily explained by the fact that it’s a demo account, fills are not real.

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  #546 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Manta, Ecuador
 
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Hi guys,

It is my pleasure to welcome back Peter Davies @ Jigsaw Trading for our 365th webinar event, on Thursday, October 17th @ 4:30 PM Eastern US.

The title for the event is "The Seven Most Effective Trading Setups", and bullet points include:

- For those looking for new setups or those looking to improve the way they confirm/manage their existing setups - this webinar is for you
- What the setup is, Why the setup works
- Which market conditions it works best in
- Who is on the wrong and right side of the trade
- How to identify it’s working out
- How to identify if it’s not working out
- Typical Risk : Reward



Register for this event:
https://on.futures.io/bi7oz

Mike

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  #547 (permalink)
 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Trading: ES
 
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Is there somewhere that gives instructions on how to setup and use Jigsaw with Ninjatrader 8?

Do I add it as an indicator to a chart?

What timeframe would I use?

I have the lifetime license for ninjatrader 8 and have an account with Interactive brokers from which I can trade live from my Ninja charts, can this be done with Jigsaw?


My data is from Kinetick live.


Please help because I just finished module 1 and would like to start watching the Jigsaw DOM live as suggested in module 2.


Thank you

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  #548 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
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Hi Rick.

Go here https://daytradr.jigsawtrading.com/rithmic_2.html
You have a video explaining how to connect.
Any questions you can contact support via email or contact Peter via Skype
Their support couldn't be better.




RickW00716 View Post
Is there somewhere that gives instructions on how to setup and use Jigsaw with Ninjatrader 8?

Do I add it as an indicator to a chart?

What timeframe would I use?

I have the lifetime license for ninjatrader 8 and have an account with Interactive brokers from which I can trade live from my Ninja charts, can this be done with Jigsaw?


My data is from Kinetick live.


Please help because I just finished module 1 and would like to start watching the Jigsaw DOM live as suggested in module 2.


Thank you


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 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
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arnie View Post
Hi Rick.

Go here https://daytradr.jigsawtrading.com/rithmic_2.html
You have a video explaining how to connect.
Any questions you can contact support via email or contact Peter via Skype
Their support couldn't be better.

THANK YOU so much!! That short little video showed me all I need to know!


Much appreciated!

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 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
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Anyone else have trouble with the platform freezing from time to time?

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  #551 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
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RickW00716 View Post
Anyone else have trouble with the platform freezing from time to time?

No, not for quite awhile, since the plugin version was replaced by the standalone daytradr. Try the trouble shooting suggestions in this post from the Jigsaw review thread, then I would contact Jigsaw support with the findings if problems continue:


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mattjack9708
Wisconsin
 
 
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So I heard Jigsaw's course is the best out there... Would it be possible to buy the course without the software? Everyone who has gone through the course, would it be worth it to do the course?

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 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
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mattjack9708 View Post
So I heard Jigsaw's course is the best out there... Would it be possible to buy the course without the software? Everyone who has gone through the course, would it be worth it to do the course?

I'm in the process of taking the course now and it is interesting. Are you looking to trade the DOM only using Jigsaw? It moves REALLY fast, so fast that in my opinion it's too fast to see any setups.

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mattjack9708
Wisconsin
 
 
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RickW00716 View Post
I'm in the process of taking the course now and it is interesting. Are you looking to trade the DOM only using Jigsaw? It moves REALLY fast, so fast that in my opinion it's too fast to see any setups.

Hey,

Im using Sierra but I have a customized DOM. I honestly am not sure what should I trade with. I just know that orderflow is the right way to go. Not sure about DOM/Footprint to trade with.

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 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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RickW00716 View Post
Anyone else have trouble with the platform freezing from time to time?

I use the same Rithmic feed with Multicharts and DayTradr.
From time to time in MC prices moves and with Daytradr it´s frozen.
Just happened 2minutes ago I am on v22.

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 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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it just happened again.

There is a fast moving market. Multicharts is running but DayTradr is frozen or disconnecting or what ever problem it has 07.11.19. 11 o´clock Chicago time.

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  #557 (permalink)
 alberteinstein7 
Boston, MA USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: MutiCharts, Ninja, Jigsaw
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I am a new Jigsaw user and have noticed that there is an integration available to a company called JS Services.
I have watched some of their videos and have a general idea of what they offer.
I also see that there was a JS Services thread here on FIO, however, there has been no activity since March 2018. Thus the reason I am posting my questions here.

My question is to users of Jigsaw and to Jigsaw moderator.

1. Jigsaw Moderator - Can you tell how many of your customers use JS Services?
Have you reveived feedback from any of your customers that you can share here?

2. Jigsaw Customers - If you have subscribed to or trialed JS Services, would you share your feedback?

Thank You,
Albert

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 Zonescalper 
Amsterdam The Netherlands
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierrachart & Daytradr
Broker: Optimus Futures, Rithmic datafeed
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Hi Peter,

I am using Daytradr for a while. I am now checking out the Action Vista heat map. There are not a lot of videos out there that explain the benefits of Auction Vista. Can you push me in the right direction and post some links to videos about Auction Vista?

Cheers Zonescalper

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MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
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Zonescalper View Post
Hi Peter,

I am using Daytradr for a while. I am now checking out the Action Vista heat map. There are not a lot of videos out there that explain the benefits of Auction Vista. Can you push me in the right direction and post some links to videos about Auction Vista?

Cheers Zonescalper

It seems pretty intuitive. I've started using it a lot more when scalping thinner markets like CL/NQ. I've found a lot of edge in using it. It is more just an extension of my naked DOM only style, but with a better visualization of volume, liquidity, and a historical context of price.

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 Zonescalper 
Amsterdam The Netherlands
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Hi michael,

Do you have any references or videos that i can ckeck out?

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 t0030tr 
Detroit, Michigan, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Thanks for getting back Pete and supporting my license from a very long time ago. MUCH APPRECIATED Looking forward to looking at the updated tools you have. Thanks again

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 grayfrog 
Los Angeles, CA
 
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Is there actual charting with the Jigsaw platform or do you have to run Jigsaw alongside another trading platform to do charting as well?

I have looked through the Jigsaw website and I see that there is "integration" with NT, Multicharts.Net and I've found references to integration with Metatrader 5 but no where do I actually see how this integration really works. I've looked at some of the videos on the Product Manual - Connection manager section where there are some short videos but it seems like you are basically running whatever your favorite charting platform is and separately running Jigsaw.

Clearly either I'm not understanding something or charting isn't really that important when trading order flow. And clearly I am not an order flow trader but I am very curious about it.

Thank you.

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 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT, MT4, Jigsaw
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Greenmoose View Post
Is there actual charting with the Jigsaw platform or do you have to run Jigsaw alongside another trading platform to do charting as well?

I have looked through the Jigsaw website and I see that there is "integration" with NT, Multicharts.Net and I've found references to integration with Metatrader 5 but no where do I actually see how this integration really works. I've looked at some of the videos on the Product Manual - Connection manager section where there are some short videos but it seems like you are basically running whatever your favorite charting platform is and separately running Jigsaw.

Clearly either I'm not understanding something or charting isn't really that important when trading order flow. And clearly I am not an order flow trader but I am very curious about it.

Thank you.

There is no charting. Not in the conventional sense. There’s the auction vista, which is a heat map showing areas of high liquidity, which tend to act as s/r areas.

I use jigsaw with ninja .. so I can’t comment on the other platforms you’ve mentioned. Basically, jigsaw uses a simple bridge to get the data out of ninja, which is obviously from your data connection.

I wouldn’t say charts are not important - I use charts alongside the order flow. If you check out Axia futures YT channel, you will see multiple examples of how they find areas of interest on a chart and watch the DOM at those areas to help determine direction.

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 grayfrog 
Los Angeles, CA
 
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spideysteve View Post
There is no charting. Not in the conventional sense. There’s the auction vista, which is a heat map showing areas of high liquidity, which tend to act as s/r areas.

I use jigsaw with ninja .. so I can’t comment on the other platforms you’ve mentioned. Basically, jigsaw uses a simple bridge to get the data out of ninja, which is obviously from your data connection.

I wouldn’t say charts are not important - I use charts alongside the order flow. If you check out Axia futures YT channel, you will see multiple examples of how they find areas of interest on a chart and watch the DOM at those areas to help determine direction.

Much appreciated! I'll take a look.

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 grayfrog 
Los Angeles, CA
 
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Any issues running the Jigsaw bridge with NT? Any lag in data?

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  #566 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
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Greenmoose View Post
Any issues running the Jigsaw bridge with NT? Any lag in data?

The Ninjatrader data bridge was the first one Jigsaw created and that helped with the implementation of the other platform bridges, such as for Tradovate. I don't use Ninjatrader anymore but when I have the data bridge to daytradr worked well and without problem for me.

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Greenmoose View Post
Any issues running the Jigsaw bridge with NT? Any lag in data?

There shouldn't be.

With this technology stack (C# .NET), it's event driven. Ninja gets data inbound and then fires events. Jigsaw uses the same events that the Ninja UI does. That means if you video it and play back frame-by-frame, sometimes they will update first, sometimes we will.

We throttle differently from Ninja. So peak times are handled differently. If the market goes crazy, we hold back updates so that we keep up to date but don't thrash the UI. We use the human eyeball as a guide. No point updating the UI more than the human eye can see.

We are also heavily muti-threaded, so data inbound, data processing, UI is all on different threads - even different instrument data coming on different threads.

BUT - it's complex software, so if anyone sees anything - we'll look at it.

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Greenmoose View Post
Is there actual charting with the Jigsaw platform or do you have to run Jigsaw alongside another trading platform to do charting as well?

I have looked through the Jigsaw website and I see that there is "integration" with NT, Multicharts.Net and I've found references to integration with Metatrader 5 but no where do I actually see how this integration really works. I've looked at some of the videos on the Product Manual - Connection manager section where there are some short videos but it seems like you are basically running whatever your favorite charting platform is and separately running Jigsaw.

Clearly either I'm not understanding something or charting isn't really that important when trading order flow. And clearly I am not an order flow trader but I am very curious about it.

Thank you.

Charting has been added - we had to go back and re-engineer a lot for performance reasons, inlcuding bypassing a lot of code in the charting add-on we based it on.

QA has finished access to the new GFAPI today (GAIN API Changes next month) and we just added 1 more QA, they start on charting tomorrow. I would expect a beta within the month.

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While I'm here, I'll answer a few from other threads:


Quoting 
Is Jigsaw able to pull data out of ThinkOrSwim Similar to Interactive Brokers Traders Workstation for full market depth level 2 for NASDAQ stocks?

TWS for now, TDA started but stalled - basically, we got access to the API then....
- we need a SIM account to get running (with API Access)
- you can't get that unless you have an account
- we can't get an account applying from either country I have proof of address from (Thailand, UK)

Waiting for TDA Singapore, Linked in begging letters & begging the API people - but no luck yet. Trying to twist some arms to get a US citizen to open an account and give us SIM access.

PITA.

TWS works - it collates all the depth you have access to for stocks - the next question is "which depth depth do I need access to" - and I can't get a straight answer from IB.



So that's what I am using. Maybe overkill but it's all relative.

Penny stocks don't quite work right but are in a release later this week/early next.

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 Big Mike 
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Do you have a mechanism in place to refresh and then fill in the "missing" data that was dropped for whatever reason? Backfilling it after market close for example.

Speaking of data, getting off topic, do you have data servers to pull historical data from on your side, or is there no need -- simply using NT's existing infrastructure?

Jigsaw Trading View Post
There shouldn't be.

With this technology stack (C# .NET), it's event driven. Ninja gets data inbound and then fires events. Jigsaw uses the same events that the Ninja UI does. That means if you video it and play back frame-by-frame, sometimes they will update first, sometimes we will.

We throttle differently from Ninja. So peak times are handled differently. If the market goes crazy, we hold back updates so that we keep up to date but don't thrash the UI. We use the human eyeball as a guide. No point updating the UI more than the human eye can see.

We are also heavily muti-threaded, so data inbound, data processing, UI is all on different threads - even different instrument data coming on different threads.

BUT - it's complex software, so if anyone sees anything - we'll look at it.

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 jitasb 
London, England
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Have things moved on ?

Hello Peter.

I know this is a "Futures" forum now, but a quick query on US Equity trading. I am a jigsaw member and after a spell out I just wanted to catch up.

Previously I used the following:
IB for execution
NT7 for charts + Kinetic data feed.
On NT7 > used the summary tape and Recon Tape.

At the time I took a break, I think a new stand-alone product Daytradr was just coming to the fore.

So, in terms of US Equity trading, just wanted some advice on the best arrangement to use. E.g. Is the above still workable? Does Daytradr offer more ?
Are there better data feeds than Kinetic ?

Many Thanks.

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 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
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I was wanting to learn more about the circle tuner in Auction Vista.

What would be the recommended settings depending on market volatility?

Is there a way to tell what price the circle tuner is representing?( I use the crosshair and the circle seems to cover 2 or 3 prices in CL)


Thank you

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 grayfrog 
Los Angeles, CA
 
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Glad I checked back in on this thread. Looks like things at Jigsaw are going in quite the direction I was trying to figure out a workaround for (lack of charting).

In terms of data for Jigsaw; maybe this is a really dumb question but if using Kinetick or IQ for data, is this considered multiple connections requiring more than one data subscription?

Also, I'll add a vote for the previous posters question regarding "So, in terms of US Equity trading, just wanted some advice on the best arrangement to use. E.g. Is the above still workable? Does Daytradr offer more ?
Are there better data feeds than Kinetic ?"

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 2320 
Canada
 
 
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New user to Jigsaw. Training is better than Bookmap. More emphasis on order flow DOM vs Bookmap which is over stimulating and gets one to focus too much on the visuals and volume dots which I found had me over trading. Made better trades on Jigsaw than Bookmap.

Some suggestions / requests

1 - Plug In for TD Think or Swim (they offer customers FREE level 2 market depth) This would be a huge bonus for North American customers.

2 - Full candle stick charting capabilities (RSI, Moving averages, etc)

3 - Visual Indicators - Would be nice to add some logos to the auction vista (Icebergs for Iceberg order, Stop Signs for a stop run etc....) Bookmap has a new MBO add on which includes this data. I think just adding some images of stop signs or icebergs on the chart would add to the point or perhaps add this into one of the gauges.


What would be ideal would be full charting capabilities with the auction vista built into 1 chart. Perhaps Candles that still show in background colors the market depth areas of liquidity and and the volume dot's that show exceptional volume..

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  #575 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Big Mike View Post
Do you have a mechanism in place to refresh and then fill in the "missing" data that was dropped for whatever reason? Backfilling it after market close for example.

Speaking of data, getting off topic, do you have data servers to pull historical data from on your side, or is there no need -- simply using NT's existing infrastructure?


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Right now, no - we are an "in the moment too", with very little history beyond the historical VP & what Vista collects in real time. On a disconnect, we do refresh the intraday VP and more importantly - fills/positions

With the upcoming release, we have charts and caching with catch-up - standard stuff. That's only for direct data feed connections. When we piggy-back a trading platform like NT8 or MT4, we don't use that for chart data. No point really.

We don't have servers or plan to because we can lean on other people's (e.g. CQG, Rithmic etc) to provide the data. If we went the server route it would be for execution initially - but that's another story...

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 grayfrog 
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Any anticipated rough date on the release of charts for Jigsaw?

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jitasb View Post
Have things moved on ?

Hello Peter.

I know this is a "Futures" forum now, but a quick query on US Equity trading. I am a jigsaw member and after a spell out I just wanted to catch up.

Previously I used the following:
IB for execution
NT7 for charts + Kinetic data feed.
On NT7 > used the summary tape and Recon Tape.

At the time I took a break, I think a new stand-alone product Daytradr was just coming to the fore.

So, in terms of US Equity trading, just wanted some advice on the best arrangement to use. E.g. Is the above still workable? Does Daytradr offer more ?
Are there better data feeds than Kinetic ?

Many Thanks.

Yeah - except you no longer need NT or Kinetick.

IB got their act together with the L1 data - so the data is good and we now connect directly to TWS from daytradr.

From an L2 perspective Kinetic was always base level 2 - best bid/ask per MMID. With IB you can layer on the subscriptions to get a much deeper appreciation of actual depth, which we consolidate on the ladder to give you the totals. Only issue is - it's hard to get an answer from anyone at TWS about exactly which subscriptions you need - so we put it here: https://blog.jigsawtrading.com/interactive-brokers-data-for-us-stocks

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  #578 (permalink)
 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Hi,

Recently one of other trading platforms has implemented stop&iceberg order detector. It uses Rithmic data to display the amount of stop limit orders being executed at given time

I think it can give a bit of an edge in terms of detecting a stop run and using this information to trade setups that depend on stop run concept

Do you have such a feature in Jigsaw? If not, do you plan to implement it?

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matzero View Post
Hi,

Recently one of other trading platforms has implemented stop&iceberg order detector. It uses Rithmic data to display the amount of stop limit orders being executed at given time

I think it can give a bit of an edge in terms of detecting a stop run and using this information to trade setups that depend on stop run concept

Do you have such a feature in Jigsaw? If not, do you plan to implement it?

No. Mostly because what we already have is better because you can't hide from it.

It's not as if we didn't consider it. When MBO was announced way back, we spoke to a lot of professional traders and the consensus was that it wouldn't be of practical use to the retailer. Mostly because it's very similar to the old L2 totalview on stocks in the early-mid 2000's. That game died out a long time ago and it's hard to see how MBO would breathe life into it. (more here: https://blog.jigsawtrading.com/mbo-the-new-holy-grail-or-just-another-gimmick-for-retail-traders)

MBO does give you a way of detecting native icebergs. By native, I mean icebergs that are sitting at the exchange using the CME "Display Qty" order parameters. These iceberg order types at CME are quite unsophisticated. On the other hand, the leading Instutional trading platform (TT) has far superior iceberg order capabilities that are co-located at the exchange and not visible via MBO (and the 'other' platform you mention).

So first thing you have to ask - which ones are most widely used? The unsophisticated ones that are now visible via MBO or the highly tunable ones that MBO can't show you?

Second thing you have to ask - which icebergs do you want so see? All of them or some of them?

The platform used by the majority of the traders you want to track are using a platform that has had amazing iceberg functionality for years & that just happens to be invisible to MBO. See for yourself here: https://library.tradingtechnologies.com/trade/tto-order-types-overview.html

Seeing an iceberg isn't rocket science. It's simply a lack of liquidity/limit orders when you get to a price but then a lot of size ends up executing. Just means people added more size. MBO does not show you each time this happens. It just shows you when it happens with a simple, native order type. If you only include native/MBO icebergs - you will miss much of this activity. On the other hand - you already know where there's no depth but a lot of size, right. That's still what you are looking for.

Every time something new comes out, there's always going to be people pushing it as the new "holy grail" or the solution to "they" that are causing all your losses. MBO isn't new to trading, it's stuff we had 15 years ago. It does help algos understand why they don't get filled but it's not the droid you are looking for.

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 matzero 
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MBO does give you a way of detecting native icebergs

Actually I can notice icebergs with no additional visual aids, using either DOM or footprint

I'm more interested in the "stop" part of the stop&iceberg detector

They now visualize the number of stop limit orders being executed at any given time. I know that experienced traders can recognize this without additional help, but for the rest of us without such skill it's very helpful

Do you plan to add some kind of stop run detector to Jigsaw?

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 tradingwarrior 
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What can i do to get Jigsaw D&S to print the Between bid/ask in the 'Current at Bid/Ask' and 'Total at Bid/Ask' columns?
Same behavior is observed with the JT D&S plugin on NT.

NT8 8.0.21.1 64-bit
Jigsawtradr Version 2.1.0.4
Feed: IQFeed/IB
Instruments: Equities with bid/ask spreads <--- Yes, these are the culprits.

See sample below. The 'Between' prints in the T&S are yellow. Would be nice to see them reflected on the JT D&S.


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 artemiso 
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MBO does give you a way of detecting native icebergs. By native, I mean icebergs that are sitting at the exchange using the CME "Display Qty" order parameters. These iceberg order types at CME are quite unsophisticated. On the other hand, the leading Instutional trading platform (TT) has far superior iceberg order capabilities that are co-located at the exchange and not visible via MBO (and the 'other' platform you mention).

So first thing you have to ask - which ones are most widely used? The unsophisticated ones that are now visible via MBO or the highly tunable ones that MBO can't show you?

Second thing you have to ask - which icebergs do you want so see? All of them or some of them?

The platform used by the majority of the traders you want to track are using a platform that has had amazing iceberg functionality for years & that just happens to be invisible to MBO. See for yourself here: https://library.tradingtechnologies.com/trade/tto-order-types-overview.html

By the way, I explained here: why these claims aren't true.

1. MBO does not disclose tag 1138, so it doesn't give you an explicit mechanism to detect "icebergs" over MBP. However the same techniques you use to detect "icebergs" (both exchange-specified ones using tag 1138 or simulated ones using an automated execution algorithm) on MBP can be performed with higher accuracy on MBO.

2. Leading prediction and lagging confirmation are different. There's a large number of edge cases where iceberg detection is not useful, on both MBO and MBP. Let's say a user places an order with peek 1 size and hide 1 size. Now you see a trade-through of size 1, add 1, depth stays the same. This is the minimum case required to confirm an "iceberg". But once you see it, what's the point? His order is now fully displayed. Compare this to a scenario from US equities: let's say you see a displayed NBBO of 10.95/10.96 but the local book on NASDAQ is 10.95/10.97. You place a NASDAQ post-only bid at 10.96 which is expected to slide to 10.95 since it locks the NBBO. But instead your order goes through without being repriced to 10.95 and is posted and displayed at 10.96 - this implies that there is a sell iceberg at 10.96 before the hidden portion is displayed.

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matzero View Post
Actually I can notice icebergs with no additional visual aids, using either DOM or footprint

I'm more interested in the "stop" part of the stop&iceberg detector

They now visualize the number of stop limit orders being executed at any given time. I know that experienced traders can recognize this without additional help, but for the rest of us without such skill it's very helpful

Do you plan to add some kind of stop run detector to Jigsaw?

We can do that but again, I wonder what the point is. Like icebergs, it'll be 'some stops' - although in the case of stops, I do believe most will be on the exchange and not synthetic stops on TTs co-located server.

That is - until the point TT traders feel they are giving away an edge to other traders by having stops visible.

We all know that rapid acceleration on a break of (for example) a range is caused by stops (co-located or exchange based. There is definitely a benefit in knowing that one side stopped out when you return to an area in the short term. Whether that is best achieved analyzing exchange stops only is an interesting story and I am in the process of trying to quantify the percentages of exchange vs co-located stops.

Normally though -when retailers ask me about "can I see stops" - they are looking for some way to know PRIOR to them being fired. I regularly get asked if thet can see other traders' stops or if other traders can see theirs. That's something that would be of much more benefit than knowing that they just did fire. Both are things we tackle on the education side.

So my take is - as long as the percentages in exchange triggered/detectable stops is high enough - we could use MBO to do this. If not, we'd have to create an algo to do it. I'm fine with either but first - you (and any others need to answer this)...

- If we can detect stops on firing - what would you do with that information?

I ask this because I've seen some cherry-picked charts from you-know-who that imply a stop run causes a reversal. Just like a few years ago they were implying that an area of excess depth/liquidity causes a reversal. We all know the latter is not true, that excess depth is part of a story playing out and that also in some cases it can be ignored completely.

I don't want to be sending people down a path of one-rule trading systems that have no hope of working. I see a slight edge on returning to an area that has people stop out one side but I'm not seeing much more than that in it.

Your thoughts?

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tradingwarrior View Post
What can i do to get Jigsaw D&S to print the Between bid/ask in the 'Current at Bid/Ask' and 'Total at Bid/Ask' columns?
Same behavior is observed with the JT D&S plugin on NT.

NT8 8.0.21.1 64-bit
Jigsawtradr Version 2.1.0.4
Feed: IQFeed/IB
Instruments: Equities with bid/ask spreads <--- Yes, these are the culprits.

See sample below. The 'Between' prints in the T&S are yellow. Would be nice to see them reflected on the JT D&S.


Yellow trades are between & as such can't be placed either side. There is no aggressor. Our feeling is that putting them on one side (for instance based on last tick up/down) would give a false impression of the aggressor.

So question back - if we had an option to put these on - where would you want to see them & why?

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artemiso View Post
By the way, I explained here: why these claims aren't true.

1. MBO does not disclose tag 1138, so it doesn't give you an explicit mechanism to detect "icebergs" over MBP. However the same techniques you use to detect "icebergs" (both exchange-specified ones using tag 1138 or simulated ones using an automated execution algorithm) on MBP can be performed with higher accuracy on MBO.

CME Say this:


Quoting 
Exchange-assigned OrderIDs are unique per order and are consistent for the life of the order. When CME Group-held iceberg orders (referred to as native icebergs) have displayed quantity refreshed, the refreshed order will have the same OrderID as the original order.

and then this


Quoting 
For those concerned this function gives other participants greater ability to detect presence of iceberg, we recommend evaluating third party offerings that include ISV-held iceberg orders (synthetic iceberg where total quantity is managed off-exchange by ISV server).

And we detect those 3rd party offerings Icebergs. It is this that we have always done.

But according to CME - you CAN detect their icebergs by order id. It's not tag 1138 (display qty) - it's the orders that come on with the same order id that allows you to associate it. Although that means a dictionary of all orders and a search of that dictionary each time an change comes in. Crunch crunch.



artemiso View Post
2. Leading prediction and lagging confirmation are different. There's a large number of edge cases where iceberg detection is not useful, on both MBO and MBP. Let's say a user places an order with peek 1 size and hide 1 size. Now you see a trade-through of size 1, add 1, depth stays the same. This is the minimum case required to confirm an "iceberg". But once you see it, what's the point? His order is now fully displayed. Compare this to a scenario from US equities: let's say you see a displayed NBBO of 10.95/10.96 but the local book on NASDAQ is 10.95/10.97. You place a NASDAQ post-only bid at 10.96 which is expected to slide to 10.95 since it locks the NBBO. But instead your order goes through without being repriced to 10.95 and is posted and displayed at 10.96 - this implies that there is a sell iceberg at 10.96 before the hidden portion is displayed.

I agree, in fact - there is ZERO edge in detecting a single iceberg in isolation. That is the problem with it - people jump on it as if it's a method in it's own right. An iceberg could be someone legging into a spread with direction of that single market being unimportant in terms of profitability of the position.

I do beleive in the concept of "stopping volume" - where we hit a price (especially when a market is weakly pulling back), where we just start accumulating and where orders no longer have price moving. I believe it is more significant when it takes more time. Simply because (for example) in a market that's been tearing up, that then moves weakly down, it gives traders time to think "maybe path of least resistance is upside". It gives pause to countertrend sellers who are fading the overall move and gives them chance to bail at a profit.

With Jigsaw, iceberg detection would not show a refresh of 1 with 1. It's smart enough to know that even a 100% increase in size is irrelevant at that size. In fact, it self tunes to the market based on recent behaviour.

It's all trainer wheels though - traders need to get used to reading the flow and not relying on a bunch of indicators to do it for them. I would also argue it's more nuanced than any iceberg detector of any type can detect. I pulled an old screen shot for this. Circles show area of excessive volume.



a - not icebergs - high liquidity area that we hit and traded. Size was there & stayed as we traded it.
b - iceberg - excess trades into the bid, no liquidity showing leading up to the price. We'd just traded through it and we are in a range, so of course we'll chop and spin within the range. Call it what you want - but I wouldn't get too excited.
c - definite iceberg - massive imbalanced to trading at offer (hence mostly blue), no excess volume leading up to us trading there. Bigger cirlce/volume than in recent past.

Now more cirlces between C&D but what's the context? We are in areas we've traded over before - and that tends to see is trading more as we go back and forth over those areas.

d - this is where it gets interesting and where a nuanced interpretation is going to get you a lot further than some indicator. We do have excess depth but the size traded a couple of ticks below it. Size was added as we got there. It's heavy blue which means more buy market orders/sellers absorbing. Or sellers POTENTIALLY absorbing because in theory it could be one half of a spread. Realistically though - just popping the top of the range, high liquidity above and aborption just below it. It appears to be like front running the big order. Either way - it's a potential headfake and a good R:R trade. You could be wrong 70% of the time and still come out on top with these. BUT - it only makes sense in light of what's been happening earlier.

Trouble is - everyone wants to dumb it down to an indicator. To clean it all up so it gives clear and concise signals. I say "embrace the ugly".

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 tradingwarrior 
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Yellow trades are between & as such can't be placed either side. There is no aggressor. Our feeling is that putting them on one side (for instance based on last tick up/down) would give a false impression of the aggressor.

So question back - if we had an option to put these on - where would you want to see them & why?



Having the option to select a new column 'Trades Between' so it can be placed anywhere on the
DOM would ensure we have visibility but do not add noise to the bid/ask prints, to your point.

While i agree they are not aggressors, the significant volume of these prints contributes
to the sum of all the parts by rending a more complete picture across the VPs (see approximate intraday sample snapshot below).

Since i consider them to be 'fillers' they help to identify areas leading up to the aggressors and having a
distinct view of their price action is something that warrants visibility with such instruments, IMO.

Sorry if this thread is detracting from the iceberg discussion, happy to start a new one if preferred.

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  #587 (permalink)
 artemiso 
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But according to CME - you CAN detect their icebergs by order id. It's not tag 1138 (display qty) - it's the orders that come on with the same order id that allows you to associate it. Although that means a dictionary of all orders and a search of that dictionary each time an change comes in. Crunch crunch.

Exactly, you've explained the contradiction in your own argument. You earlier claimed that MBP is superior for detecting "icebergs". But as you've pointed out, MBO provides the crucial order ID needed to infer an iceberg (both server-side and exchanges-side), while MBP does not.

And even the order ID can only be used for an ex post confirmation of a refresh, it still doesn't tell if you if there's any additional size behind a given order ID. Both methods are imperfect, but MBO is strictly superior.

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 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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- If we can detect stops on firing - what would you do with that information?

I ask this because I've seen some cherry-picked charts from you-know-who that imply a stop run causes a reversal. Just like a few years ago they were implying that an area of excess depth/liquidity causes a reversal. We all know the latter is not true, that excess depth is part of a story playing out and that also in some cases it can be ignored completely.

I don't want to be sending people down a path of one-rule trading systems that have no hope of working. I see a slight edge on returning to an area that has people stop out one side but I'm not seeing much more than that in it.

Your thoughts?

I want to count them. So for instance in the same way that we use cumulative delta. When cumulative delta diverges with price it can be an indication of trapped traders. It doesn't tell you which way the imbalance will resolve, but such imbalance can mean a good move is coming. A stop order is useful because it's very likely to be an exit. So percentage of stops detected on discovery of new prices could tell you things about how much imbalance still exists, and how much new interest is being attracted.

I'd actually be more interested if I found an area where I expected there to be a lot of stops, and they didn't show up. But since I have no way of detecting them currently it's hard to say what edges can be found until we start digging. What I'd really like is to be able to track individual positions. You knew who you were trading with on the floor, and that was a key edge. Stop orders don't do that, but you could at least piece together some of where people got in and out.

And of course there's always going to be that tendency to fall into one rule trading system traps. Most of the peculiarities I've found are very dependent on what kind of market it is, and that's often something you don't realize is happening until after the trade is done. I'm starting to conclude that it is better to know ahead of time what sort of trades to expect, and then try to find them on the DOM. Which is why I am relying more and more on trades based on fundamentals and who I expect to be in the market that day. But isn't that really the problem with everything we can see from market data?

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 tradingwarrior 
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tradingwarrior View Post
Having the option to select a new column 'Trades Between' so it can be placed anywhere on the
DOM would ensure we have visibility but do not add noise to the bid/ask prints, to your point.

While i agree they are not aggressors, the significant volume of these prints contributes
to the sum of all the parts by rending a more complete picture across the VPs (see approximate intraday sample snapshot below).

Since i consider them to be 'fillers' they help to identify areas leading up to the aggressors and having a
distinct view of their price action is something that warrants visibility with such instruments, IMO.

Sorry if this thread is detracting from the iceberg discussion, happy to start a new one if preferred.

***Just checking in to see if this is a viable option.***

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TWDsje View Post
I want to count them. So for instance in the same way that we use cumulative delta. When cumulative delta diverges with price it can be an indication of trapped traders. It doesn't tell you which way the imbalance will resolve, but such imbalance can mean a good move is coming. A stop order is useful because it's very likely to be an exit. So percentage of stops detected on discovery of new prices could tell you things about how much imbalance still exists, and how much new interest is being attracted.

I'd actually be more interested if I found an area where I expected there to be a lot of stops, and they didn't show up. But since I have no way of detecting them currently it's hard to say what edges can be found until we start digging. What I'd really like is to be able to track individual positions. You knew who you were trading with on the floor, and that was a key edge. Stop orders don't do that, but you could at least piece together some of where people got in and out.

And of course there's always going to be that tendency to fall into one rule trading system traps. Most of the peculiarities I've found are very dependent on what kind of market it is, and that's often something you don't realize is happening until after the trade is done. I'm starting to conclude that it is better to know ahead of time what sort of trades to expect, and then try to find them on the DOM. Which is why I am relying more and more on trades based on fundamentals and who I expect to be in the market that day. But isn't that really the problem with everything we can see from market data?


Yeah - I don'[t think that's going to yield the results you are looking for.

If you look at Order Flow in general - you have to always consider that some people are arb/spreading & some are longer term (and don't react to short term fluctuations)

Not all flow is reactionary - BUT you can often consider everything to be short term because that's who reacts in the short term. Short term players cause short term moves, so you can exclude the ones you don't.

For this reason - counting the orders is problematic because the counting doesn't exclude the arb/spread/long term.

Stops are an order type but you can have stops without them being stops at the exchange legging out of a bad spread would be done on an autospreader, not with stop orders placed at fixed levels because it's the RELATIVE move that stops you out, not absolute moves on 1 leg.

So let's say you have a range where 100k contracts trade and for example:

- 40k are arb/spread/non-directional - any stops they have will be automated based on the entire position - most likely not actual stop orders but not directional anyway
- 30k are long term
- 30k are short term

Now, of course every buy is a sell but put that to one side for now.

When you see stops - you can't really compare the volume of stops to traded qty. Some stops aren't stop orders, so won't be visible in MBO. The Qty you are comparing against has too much non-directional, non-reactionary trades to make comparing the values.

This issue is coming up a lot and we are going to do a session on it at the end of the month: https://us02web.zoom.us/s/89660447494

This will be an interactive session, so you can come along and we can discuss different positions on it.

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Yeah - I don'[t think that's going to yield the results you are looking for.

If you look at Order Flow in general - you have to always consider that some people are arb/spreading & some are longer term (and don't react to short term fluctuations)

Not all flow is reactionary - BUT you can often consider everything to be short term because that's who reacts in the short term. Short term players cause short term moves, so you can exclude the ones you don't.

For this reason - counting the orders is problematic because the counting doesn't exclude the arb/spread/long term.

Stops are an order type but you can have stops without them being stops at the exchange legging out of a bad spread would be done on an autospreader, not with stop orders placed at fixed levels because it's the RELATIVE move that stops you out, not absolute moves on 1 leg.

So let's say you have a range where 100k contracts trade and for example:

- 40k are arb/spread/non-directional - any stops they have will be automated based on the entire position - most likely not actual stop orders but not directional anyway
- 30k are long term
- 30k are short term

Now, of course every buy is a sell but put that to one side for now.

When you see stops - you can't really compare the volume of stops to traded qty. Some stops aren't stop orders, so won't be visible in MBO. The Qty you are comparing against has too much non-directional, non-reactionary trades to make comparing the values.

This issue is coming up a lot and we are going to do a session on it at the end of the month: https://us02web.zoom.us/s/89660447494

This will be an interactive session, so you can come along and we can discuss different positions on it.

Isn't this the same case with plenty of things that we see in jigsaw though? Why would this make seeing stop orders useless, but not make things like say cumulative delta useless? Yeah there's lots of noise, but that doesn't mean it can't tell you something about current market conditions.

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 vaibhavkamble 
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I'm planning to buy Jigsaw license and use it alongside Ninjatrader 8, which I have lifetime license of. I noticed that Jigsaw has its own market replay connection, however can I use this feature with CQG continuum feed or I need to pay separately for some other Jigsaw supported data feed?

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 1steve1 
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Peter,

I'm just getting started with Journalytix. I'm using NT8 trading MES live and Sim around my day job (before the open and evenings US time). I have a document defining my daily preparation before trading and another document outlining my trading plan.

What are your thoughts on a end of week/month trade review process with the data from Journalytix. My emphasis is on improving my process and trade decisions, not necessarily making a lot of money in the next day/week/month, etc.

Thanks

Steve

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 Effanzomane 
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Hi Peter,

I'm a long time Jigsaw fan and user and very much looking forward to the new charting release. That said, I use Bookmap as well and while your points are well taken regarding the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the new MBO S-I indicators, I'm finding their new liquidity tracker pro add-on with order size filter to be very useful. Using this indicator with a filter size of >14 with a market depth of 12 in the ES (for example) allows me to often see the intentions of the larger traders.

Now I know you understand these algorithms much better than myself but I'm curious if you could or ever plan to institute something similar in Jigsaw? I ask because I'd like to use your product exclusively. I think your snapshot power meter essentially captures the same thing but I find the graphical representation where you can see spikes and trends and more nuance to be quite beneficial.

Lastly just curious if you could consider implementing a tab option so that a guy could easily switch between DOMs when trading multiple markets and screen space is at a premium?

Thanks for all of your fine work with Jigsaw. Love the platform and it seems to be getting better and better by the week!

Scott

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MichaelFlowTrader
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When are the charts coming?
What type of charting options will Jigsaw have?
This rollout is slower than The Detox, last season of GOT, the 2 year wait for the new season of Search Party, and the last Harry Potter movie!

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 tr8d3r 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
When are the charts coming?
What type of charting options will Jigsaw have?
This rollout is slower than The Detox, last season of GOT, the 2 year wait for the new season of Search Party, and the last Harry Potter movie!

Hi Michael, the details can be found on jigsaw blog.
Follow the link: https://blog.jigsawtrading.com/jigsaw-charting-beta

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 hen322 
San Francisco CA
 
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Can anyone explain the Live Subscription option of "$50 for the first 4 months, then $50 monthly"?
Does that mean, $450 for the first year, and then $50 monthly thereafter, leading to future payments of $600 annually?
Or does it reset each year to $50 for the first 4 months, then $50 for the rest of the year?

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 jamrock 
tampa florida
 
 
Posts: 63 since Sep 2020

I am seriously just blown away at the number of people trying to use jig saw on latent data to get profitable?
it used to be mkt profile 15 years ago with letters now its all colorful same stuff that quit working years ago!!

nothing in time and sales or in the orderbook tells you anything since the orders
can and will be CANCELLED and because you have lot so of hidden orders
that still get cancelled.

the funny thing to me is that people would think smart outfits and algos are not loading up certain areas on purpose to screw with
any and all jugsaw mkt profile volume profile strategies out there because they do same as painting the tape but much cheaper.

If it works for you great but I havent met many huge traders using jugsaw on the regular and i am not here to put down this product I am just
saying all the circles the colors come on there are better ways to work with the mkt.

my question?

why do so many people use jigsaw that are still unsuccessful?
why do the people who "SELL" jigsaw always come up with new latest and greatest gizmos and gadgetry if it was so great before and folks this is an
industry like the GOLD RUSH. sell to the traders but dont trade.

anyway goodluck with it and it is very expensive if you ask me.

THERE is ZERO predictive power or deterministic power in seeing a latent and un hidden order book.
just like tape readers these days.. ahem.. nano second and some pico second changes you never see your computer cannot even
draw as fast as the quotes came into it even if you were DMA. thats why they the real hft use tick farms and jitter stabilizers but what do i know
about any of it. again if it is working for you great but i would get a demo and try it and if during the demo it doesnt blow the doors off of your trading then why add it ?

the only true and proven predictive power has been the 1st level and that is what the hft battle for because if you start filling there then you can keep predicting well and making a mkt based on the orders you are filling. because the hft know what they are filling before anyone else. they know you are filled before you do get it? anyway good luck

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yolo778778
Malaysia
 
 
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jamrock View Post
I am seriously just blown away at the number of people trying to use jig saw on latent data to get profitable?

it used to be mkt profile 15 years ago with letters now its all colorful same stuff that quit working years ago!!



nothing in time and sales or in the orderbook tells you anything since the orders

can and will be CANCELLED and because you have lot so of hidden orders

that still get cancelled.



the funny thing to me is that people would think smart outfits and algos are not loading up certain areas on purpose to screw with

any and all jugsaw mkt profile volume profile strategies out there because they do same as painting the tape but much cheaper.



If it works for you great but I havent met many huge traders using jugsaw on the regular and i am not here to put down this product I am just

saying all the circles the colors come on there are better ways to work with the mkt.



my question?



why do so many people use jigsaw that are still unsuccessful?

why do the people who "SELL" jigsaw always come up with new latest and greatest gizmos and gadgetry if it was so great before and folks this is an

industry like the GOLD RUSH. sell to the traders but dont trade.



anyway goodluck with it and it is very expensive if you ask me.



THERE is ZERO predictive power or deterministic power in seeing a latent and un hidden order book.

just like tape readers these days.. ahem.. nano second and some pico second changes you never see your computer cannot even

draw as fast as the quotes came into it even if you were DMA. thats why they the real hft use tick farms and jitter stabilizers but what do i know

about any of it. again if it is working for you great but i would get a demo and try it and if during the demo it doesnt blow the doors off of your trading then why add it ?



the only true and proven predictive power has been the 1st level and that is what the hft battle for because if you start filling there then you can keep predicting well and making a mkt based on the orders you are filling. because the hft know what they are filling before anyone else. they know you are filled before you do get it? anyway good luck



But I never seen a video in which they advertise it as “gold rush”. Also, even though I don’t own it, Jigsaw is not an “expensive” platform, unless you are paying subscription to trade live on it, then I might call it “expensive”.

As to whether DOM is reliable or not, I personally (mostly) agree with you. Although it seems most professional futures traders use it.

But if DOM is working for you, don’t see why you would call paying $500+ lifetime for the best tool in the business “expensive ”.


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 cdnftrstdr   is a Vendor
 
 
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yolo778778 View Post
But I never seen a video in which they advertise it as “gold rush”. Also, even though I don’t own it, Jigsaw is not an “expensive” platform, unless you are paying subscription to trade live on it, then I might call it “expensive”.

As to whether DOM is reliable or not, I personally (mostly) agree with you. Although it seems most professional futures traders use it.

But if DOM is working for you, don’t see why you would call paying $500+ lifetime for the best tool in the business “expensive ”.


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100% agree with you. I use Jigsaw, $500 is not expensive, its probably the best DOM out there. Just because the other dude can't scalp he decided to sign up here and throw some shade is how he comes off.

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