My approach is , to understand when big players step in and try to go with them .
Some times I find it easy , and other times I just find it really confusing.
Do institutions or market makers go in and out of the market , for example if you see big order comming in and the market is pushed in one direction, at certain point in the day or even in the few hours after that point do they reverase there position? or do they usally hold there position for few days?
I usually expect them to defend there initial entre , some time they do and other times they don't.
It's embarssing because I didn't honely relised I was in the VPOC.. lol until you mentioned it.
I was really caught up with the offers and bid side snap shot colume. I was cancerned with the absoption of the offers.
Thank you for yor resposes ppl .. I will work on my audio recording as well,
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All I can say is that every single moment in the market is unique (yes Douglas fan here...lol) and unlike every other moment before and after for all of time. Meaning the people trading ...are diff...or have diff ideas than before ...or diff motivations ...the people with the potential to put on a trade are diff..... no single moment is or can be the same as a past or future moment.....etc etc etc ad infinitum.
So big players can't be summed up as this or that way.
Find an edge, however you do that, I do it with Excel and probabilities and with levels I perceive as important. Then we have to learn to execute our trades flawlessly every time. Train a probability mind into yourselves so you can still execute flawlessly the trade after 5 losers in a row so that 6th trade once it shows up is put on perfectly....no hesitation, no second guessing, no remembering the last 5, no wanting a sure thing or feeling bad about being wrong and on and on.....
P.S. might be helpful and just a suggestion to hit the quote button if answering or continuing a conversation, back in the original post
Ron
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The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Does Jigsaw have any utility for quick gut-checking price action?
I trade while I work and thus only trade when a relatively obvious setup arises in the price action. (I don't have the time to work with complicated indicators or extensive chart markup.). That's my cake, but I'm wondering if I could drop my bad entry rate with the icing of order flow. Only problem is that it looks to me like Jigsaw will require extensive continuous reading of order flow to make sense. I don't mind putting in the time to learn to read it, but I need to know whether it's possible, when executing a trade, to use it for quick confirmations or refinements to entries without having spent much time keeping up with the order flow activity beforehand.
Thanks
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You can, as long as you have an overall feel for the flow anyway.
I mean - if I see the ES open up and showing 200 contracts and less per level, I have a pretty good idea how volatile it'll be - not so much because I was watching it like a hawk for hours that day but just because I'm tuned in to the relationship between liquidity and volatility.
So with 200 bids/offers per level during the day session, I'm going to expect more volatility and therefore for the Order Flow 'events' to occur over a slightly wider range of prices.
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I would add to what was said by saying you could go about your day doing your regular job and trading this way as long as you have clear "places" setup ahead of time where you desire to conduct business in, your trade locations. Maybe set up alerts on the chart or in the Market Analyzer if you don't have it for your charts and once the market trades at your locations and you hear the alert going off while doing your regular job come over and check the Jigsaw tools to determine if entering the market make sense. Watching order flow at all times IMHO is edgeless. But very helpful at certain times. I need to add this is only going to work if you know what the Jigsaw tools are telling you and you might be at a slight disadvantage compared to the guy that is intimately familiar with these types of tools and was able to watch the market more that day to become keenly aware of just how trading was happening that particular day from the open let's say.
But nonetheless I feel the Jigsaw tools offer a massive advantage and I have learned an incredible amount from Peter and from using his amazing tools over the last 3 going on 4 years now.
Ron
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The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Thanks, Ron. I do use line alerts to let me know when one of my hypotheses is being confirmed for a setup. Sounds like you're saying that although I won't maximize the value of Jigsaw if I only use it this way, it will still likely yield a marked benefit.
"Can you lead Leviathan about with a hook? ... Will the traders bargain for him?" Job 40:25-30
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Hi guys,
It is my pleasure to welcome back Peter Davies of Jigsaw Trading for another webinar on Thursday, March 17th @ 4:30PM Eastern US.
This is a promotional webinar and will contain promotional content.
In this webinar, we will take a look at how to stay on the right side of the market using the Jigsaw Order Flow Analysis Tools, including the new Auction Vista Order Flow Heatmap. We will consider using the tools to compliment an existing trading style and stand alone to identify trade locations and manage positions. We'll look at the features of the tools in the context of different styles of day trading and consider the following:
Algorithmic & Predatory trading - The myths vs the realities
Hello, I'm looking specifically for the Gomi CD indicator download like I was directed here to find. I've searched this site, and I see some other Gomi indicators, but not the Cumulative Delta. Thanks.
Thank you @DionysusToast for a great webinar. Thank you to the almost 300 attendees! Please allow 24-48 hours for me to process and hand over the recording to @Big Mike.
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@DionysusToast and @tturner86 Thanks for the webinar and thanks for uploading the video. I pretty much agree with most of the views that you've put forward about the neutral interaction between retail and low latency traders; the distinction drawn between low latency trading and 'predatory' trading, 'spoofing', so on; and the argument that low latency trading does not exacerbate volatility.
I don't know much about this area, however I'll chip in my additional opinion on two points that you mentioned.
1. Faster, more nimble firms are usually not organized as broker-dealers as it's generally not our business edge to pay for retail flow or run a dark pool. Jump and KCG are very different in this respect.
2. I really hope to dispel the view that the "R:R ratio" is stacked in favor of fast traders that can exit their positions quickly. Quite the opposite, if you were to use the classical way of measuring 'R:R ratio' based on target exit prices, it shouldn't be uncommon to see a high speed strategy take 10 units of 'risk' to aim for 1 unit of 'target reward'. Think of it as picking up pennies in a minefield - it's not an enviable position.
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For 1 - I chose to focus on the larger players because they represent the largest slice of the market and so represents the best argument the oft repeated "the algos took me out my stop,stole my girlfriend,killed my dog and scratched my car"
For 2- I absolutely agree not everyone is scratching out but that was used specifically to represent the most extreme case of skew or benefit of low latency trading. The point being that if people could understand that much, they'd be more susceptible to the view that perhaps markets just move around on their own and that firms have lots of ways to make money that are way less risky that loading up a massive directional position and driving the market up 10 points.
One of the things that struck me when I was researching this was how some firms are very unsophisticated and are basically not doing that well at all. So much for 'cheating'!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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By the way, I agree that there's a wide spectrum in terms of the level of sophistication and that there's no 'cheating' involved.
But there's a subtle point - you can measure sophistication in several ways besides technological or strategic sophistication. The firms I consider to be unsophisticated in their trading strategies usually compensate for it with very sophisticated knowledge about the markets. At the end of the day, all the trading firms I know that are engaged in low latency trading have something that is extremely refined.
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One appropriate analogy is to say that it's like a mechanical watch with extreme handmade craftsmanship. It's really simple if you think about what it does and what's needed to do it. But there's a ridiculous number of tiny moving pieces, and if it breaks, you need specific knowledge to fix it. Except take this analogy 1 step further: if it breaks, you need specific tools and knowledge to fix it that 1 firm will have and another firm will probably not.
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Auction Vista looks great. So much more aesthetically pleasing than looking at a Dom.
For people who trade equities, is it possible to connect to an IB data feed and call market depth from each exchange/MM eg ARCA, BATS, ISLAND/NSDQ, BEX etc
I know the likes of NT only supports depth from one exchange at a time. I'm not sure about MC, or any of the other platforms you currently support.
"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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With a L2 feed, you get multiple NASDAQ Exchanges - but just the best bid/offer for each. So with a Kinetick L2 feed with Ninja you will see that.
Then you have what used to be called "totalview" - which is every bid/offer for each participant. For some reason that doesn't work with Ninja, it ALMOST works - in that it shows the data (using totalview on IB as an example) - but levels are off.
We do have future plans for support of Totalview (or whatever it's called this week).
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I follow the orderbook quite closely when I trade equities. The common perception is that Lv 2 is useless in equities, however, in my opinion, at times it can be more telling than in the futures market because it takes alot less size to move individual stocks...
Just keep in mind that Kinetick/ IQ feed only support Nasdaq "Open view" which is a basic L2 book. It would be pretty much useless in Auction Vista, since it would only show a small portion of the order book.
Also, keep in mind that "Totalview" will not show orders for NASDAQ stocks that are on BATS/BEX or NYSE Arca exchanges( which is where quite alot of orders will be).
"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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@DionysusToast i think Jigsaw got me kind of 1st started into OF...or atleast introduced me to the term
Think have learnt a few stuff in OF from JS and another mentor in my trading life... & many things yet to learn. Would love your comments on the below from a JS standpoint.
as a end user and interested in orderflow....am looking for few things from developers of Ninja and OF tools:-
1. ability to move away from ninja backend licensing. by that i mean some method of giving the end user locked code. I know this is possible on Tradestation...not sure why it is not being followed on Ninja. This means paying much more if required...2-5times more or multiples of the same....than usual licensing cost. Whatever developer thinks is fair. For updates...willing to pay extra per update.
2. Good customization tools.... into quotes/traded volume/ delta's/ intensity of quotes/trades...... i think this is a tremendous value....and maybe you have a specific version where you can charge more. however again would love to be away from the generic licensing means again willing to pay much more.
3. ability to log events....or ability to dump running logs and or logs per trigger points.
lol...dont shoot me since above is just my OF needs...hope did not ask for the moon. but will be a supporter of JS and you either ways.
cheers and good stuff...looking fwd to what is totalview....
added:- might as well also post a snapshot of my previous requests.
1 - I'm not sure what you mean by moving away from Ninja backend licensing. We do not use Ninja licensing, we have our own licensing system. As for giving the end user locked code - if you mean our source code, that won't happen as we'd be giving it to our competitors too. We will build APIs though.
2 - With APIs you would be able to build more tools but for fully integrated features, we really need to build them into the core product. I know that slows down delivery of features - but we are doing a lot of backend work right now that is slowing down delivery of front end features - that wont last forever.
3 - Agreed & this is coming.
Cheers
Pete
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Hi thnx Pete. For 1 and 2 I did not mean giving source code. Rather locked code but which does not need authentication from any servers. I hope you take this the right way. My concern stems from having used tradestation products one which was on a subscription. Vendor closed shop. Subscription and stuff stops immediately.
Likewise on ninja for whatever reason if vendor closes shop we won't be able to activate license for the ninja product. In this jigsaw. Lol I know you not closing...but at the same time there is lot of effort on our part. Is there a way of dealing with this. Hence was checking instead of using backend servers can license key reside on user station via some locking mechanism.
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Guess this was a question that I should have placed here for you. However, I thought others may want to know what to do in such cases as well. My apologies if it was misplaced.
Although I previously registered, I discovered that I can no longer attend. I know that Elite members generally can replay the webinar but what of the discounts? Can I still take advantage of saving $100 from the Ninja License if I should decide to do so? For how long will the offer last?
I just watched your Auction Vista webinar and I want to thank you for what was a fascinating and informative look at the reality of what is going on in the market versus the hype. I will confess that I don't currently use jigsaw products, because I simply have been unable to stare at a morass of fast changing numbers and make anything out of it. However, the AuctionVista product is a beautiful thing to see that nicely balances limit and marker order info and provides a great way to ease somebody into watching all the numbers in the DOM.
With respect to the algo hype, it is interesting how the same pattern occurs over and over when people don't understand something. Their view becomes driven by simplistic conspiracy theories. This is ultimately a function of human nature. In politics, it manifests in a belief that a secret cabal of elites all work together to rule the world and control all outcomes, when in fact, the outcome is generally a function of many variables that no single entity controls, including chance. With respect to the market, the simplistic explanation is the market is ruled by a conspiracy of super algos who push and pull price exactly where they want it to go, when in fact, price movement is ultimately determined by the sum of all buying and selling, over which no single entity has total control, and which is subject to influence by external and random factors.
Looking forward to your next webinar! Keep up the good work!
p.s. -- shout out to @tturner86 for keeping those webinars coming...Thanks!
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It's not really available as a direct plug in to Sierra with S5.
Basically what you do is use the OEC Trader/S5 Trader platform to drive both Jisgaw and Sierra. So you'd need the OEC Trader/S5 Trader platform open at the same time as Sierra.
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hey Pete @DionysusToast HFD. Hope you had a great weekend.
Wondering if you could shed some light on Jigsaw roadmap. Whats coming in recent times.
Also wondering...if there might be an ability to add a column for Iceberg's & traded qty.
Also wondering if there might be any functionality in the works to either set filters of the highlighted boxes...or sound alerts if any when specific quantities are hit.
It's really tough to give out details of upcoming features because the competition may implement them before we do.
In terms of alerts, there's some 'normalization' work to be done to make them globally accessible and add new alert types.
What we have done recently is written a new framework for the products that let's us add certain things more quickly - I just can't say what those things are because they are pretty much 'outside the box' compared with what we do now.
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ok Pete...makes sense on the competition part. hoping some of the jazz is released soon . I deem Jigsaw to be at cutting edge of OF...though also look at a few other stuff to compliment JS...but nothing beats JS. So wishing JS the best and look forward to some of the stuff you have in the works.
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Hi guys,
It is my pleasure to welcome back Peter Davies of Jigsaw Trading for a webinar on Thursday, August 25th @ 4:30 PM Eastern US.
The topic is "Getting Started in Scalping/Ultra Short Term Trading".
The term 'scalping' now covers many different styles of trading with one common trait. You are in and out of the market in a very short time period. Frequency of trades is usually but not always high.
In this webinar, we'll look at specific techniques for short term trading and why you might want to consider using these techniques.
- The benefits of short term trading
- Market making techniques
- Market state – when to scalp
- The role of correlated markets
- Scalping volatility
- Scalping around volume
- Scalping around depth/front running the front runners
- Scalping mid-leg absorption
- Scalping around high visibility areas
- Stops – definitely not what you think
Great work with your recent updates to JigSaw, as a 2yr user it has really continued to give great value.
I was wondering if you have any plans to make the application standalone without platform integration? I'm using SierraChart, but still run ninja just for JigSaw tools.
Will the standalone platform be able to pull data out of the currently supported charting packages, say taking data from Ninjatrader, and not require a seperate data feed such as DTN IQfeed?
Such is Pete of JS @DionysusToast. I had met him few years back when i did get JS and was part of his skype community. After that I did not really use it much. But that changed...and now i use it regularly and is part of my tool set to look at OF. On a recent interaction with him he spent quite a bit of time with me like a few hrs.
This note is a thanks to him. And for him to spend this much time after so many years....without any expectation in return.
There are a few handful like him...... and it's been great to use JS and know Pete. Product is solid for scalps or long term returns and so is the man.
cheers
p
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Hello Pete,
When the standalone platform comes out will the Reconstructed Tape have been updated to include the latest PriceSquawk features, namely speech alerts, (for PriceSquawk subscribers)?
I asked this question in another thread, but I thought I would ask here as well. Does anyone here who uses the Jigsaw order flow tools (such as the DOM and the Tape) use them for position/swing trading, and if so, how useful do you find them to be?
I know that DionysusToast is mainly a intraday trader/scalper, but are there any well known position traders who use these tools?
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I'm one of the members/customers at Jigsaw Trading, same user name as here. Thank you for creating the tools!!
1) Do you have a version of the CSI (Cumulative Sheep Index) available for download or would I have to get that custom built? Would you consider letting someone from Futures.io build it for members? Maybe only make it available to Elite members, if you'd prefer?
2) In one of you tutorials where you talk about using CSI, you say something to the effect of "180k contracts above average a half an hour after the open is significant but 180k contracts above average a half an hour before the close is not." My question is, would it be possible to build a % version of CSI? For example, the plot would show that "CSI is 15% above average or CSI is 73% below average" etc...
It seems to me this would eliminate some of the subjective nature of determining when it's significant or less so.
3) Regarding the RTape, is it possible to reconstruct it based on time stamp (1 second granularity)? For example, all contracts bought at the same price & time would show as 1 trade. I frequently see the RTape plot multiple entries for the same price & time. Personally I don't care if it is actually 1 trade or not. For the purposes of analysis, I'd prefer to have it this way.
It is not at all uncommon for prints at the same price & time to add up to a block trade based on my threshold but it doesn't register as a block because it's split among different trades. This is one example of how I believe this method can be an improvement.
In your opinion, would this method be more or less effective than the the CME or Fuzzy reconstruction methods available now? Either way, please consider adding it as a 3rd method of reconstructing the RTape.
4) I've tried to register on the jigsaw blog and cannot. I'm required to answer a question to prove I'm not a bot. The problem is, there's no question there. Please let me know what I'm doing wrong.
I thank you sir for all the fine work you're doing for traders and your answers to my questions, Johnnymustard
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1. The CSI indicator is available as a download for Ninjatrader in the Jigsaw members's area, ES when to enter section, part 15 on platform setup.
3. How about looking at current trades on the DOM. The default is that it will show all the trades at that price untill price moves away for more than 2.5 seconds. Good for easily seeing unusually large size quickly accumulating at a price.
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Thank you for pointing me in that direction but I can't find what your referring to.
"1. The CSI indicator is available as a download for Ninjatrader in the Jigsaw members's area, ES when to enter section, part 15 on platform setup."
I searched numerous variations of "Jigsaw Members Area" and "ES when to enter" and didn't see it.
can I trouble you to be a little more specific? a link perhaps?
I thank you for your help, JM
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Peter calls this by two diff names. This is where the confusion is coming in. Sometimes CSI, Cumulative Sheep Index (in video I mistaking say cumulative sheep indicator) but this is more tongue in cheek. Other times JTRelativeVolume.
Here is how to find it....
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IMHO the D&S definitely can be used for swing trades. When you arrive at the trade execution stage needing fills the D&S is extremely helpful.
When a long trade can I enter on a limit and make sure I get the price I want?
Or, do I need to enter on a market and get filled possibly over a small range?
Both of these questions are answered from the D&S.
Again if a long, are the bids being hit and chewing through or are the offers being lifted more in the area you are looking to participate in? How depth are the bids and are they being reloaded? Do you see the queue emptying or almost at your price(s)? If so place a limit. But, if the bids are just touched upon quickly and we lift back to the offers you would want to go market to get filled.
@DionysusToast
Thanks for today's platform update with the Reconstructed tape now having the latest PriceSquawk integration.
The online help manual is nicely done too.
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Please note, it is first come first served in the webinar. Currently we have ~700 members signed up, and our room capacity is only 500 people. Don't join late...
I'd just like to add... there can be people that may sign-up 'just in case' but don't turn up for the webinar...... I know because I am one of them but if I know I can't make it I tend to cancel my reservation, which should make room for others.
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Room is open. Webinar will start at 4:30 PM EDT. Space is limited to 500 and we have over 750 registered. So connect as soon as you can to ensure your spot.
As always, I really learn a lot from Pete's webinars. I wish he would do these more often. Thank you Pete for all your efforts and an incredible trading tool.
Ned
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I took a look at the recording and thought that @DionysusToast delivered well and the advice was quite useful to beginners compared to the average webinar here which is more promotional.
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Interesting concept for stepping outside the charts and viewing the market in a different light. I enjoy learning the various ways other traders look at the markets and trade during various market structures.
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Guy was the trainer at Propex (Australia/Singapore) when he uploaded these videos. Last time I spoke to him he was about to start teaching interns at another prop shop. So he's worth a listen.
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The thing about webinars - there's only so much to say! I mean - you'd run out of new things to say about trading after a while. Either that or you'd have to make stuff up!
I think at this point in time, there's a lot of misinformation out there on scalping and especially front running. Hence I thought it would be good to show something from the prop/market making side.
There's also a bit of a balance between giving out information and treading on the toes of the people that taught me the techniques. I hope I struck that right or some people won't be returning my calls in the near future!
I thought the Q&A was interesting. It was to some extent more like a "tug-of-war". Because so many people are chart-centric, a lot of the questions were about bringing alongside more visual/chart based components. So my answers were very much a push back against that.
You really have to just put yourself in the moment and try it before you change it. After all, with Auction Vista, I have a vested interest in making visual tools relevant to the techniques. Yet that tool barely featured in the presentation.
Not that there was anything wrong with the questions. There's always nuance and adaptation but adaptation usually comes after a but of success.
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Thanks guys. It's always nice at least to know what other traders are doing even if you don't trade like them.
I had a chat on FB Messenger on Saturday with one of the senior guys from a prop shop. It's blowing my own trumpet a bit but I quote...
This isn't just to give myself a pat on the back - I just want people to understand that this wasn't made up stuff. Professional traders really are doing this. If you try something new, the question "is this for real" is always in the back of your head as you first start out. That's the demon that can cause you to skip to something else when it doesn't work out.
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Imp for someone new in the journey to note....that is might be something real...especially if someone wants to understand Order Flow & has no way to understand it
quoting @DionysusToast " I just want people to understand that this wasn't made up stuff. Professional traders really are doing this. "
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With Guy Bower's material, do you mean the paid video course on "Trading Courses", or through "Genisis Trader"? I know he was going to update his older video course with the "P12 Program", but I'm not sure what happened to that.
@DionysusToast Thank you so much for a fantastic webinar Mr. Davies! I'm a newer and struggling trader, mostly focusing on charts and price action but with limited success so far. Your discussion of order flow concepts really opened my eyes to how the market actually moves and I love the idea of taking many trades throughout the day and getting in and out quickly. I'm going to start looking into order flow techniques as my trading study plan going forward. The idea of trading without any charts is also very appealing to me. I imagine this is the way pit traders actually traded.
Anyway, I'm going to look into the Jigsaw tools and start studying the lessons on the website. My goal is to eventually pass my TST combine and become a funded trader. Would I be able to purchase the Jigsaw tools and plug them into my NT platform and use them as I work to pass the combine?
Not Pete but I saw your question.
Yes. Currently you would need to sign up for the TST Ninjatrader combine as you say. With the RapidTraderPro Jigsaw standalone platform in the future you could sign up for the Rithmic platform and use the data from them to run the DOM. Then you wouldn't need to buy a Ninjatrader live licence in the future. Jigsaw requires a notional live trading fee of $50/month for live trading with the DOM but that fee is NOT required for TST combines. (Originally one had to use the live DOM on TST combines but Pete changed it so the sim DOM would work negating the fee payment)
The following 2 users say Thank You to matthew28 for this post:
Well - this is a great set of free resources here: [yt]https://www.youtube.com/user/GuyBower/videos[/yt]
Of course, I also chat with Guy on the phone every now and again, so I'm able to pick his brains too. The Trading Courses is a decent set of resources.
Last time I spoke to him he was about to start up teaching at a prop shop again. I didn't realize it was Genesis he was at.
It's always good to buddy up to people like this if you get chance.
If you have any questions about the products or services provided, please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
The following user says Thank You to Jigsaw Trading for this post:
After watching Mr. Davies' latest webinar, I am intrigued to learn more about order flow scalping using just the DOMs. I think I'm a scalper by nature and the idea of taking lots of trades with limited risk and minimal market exposure time is very appealing to me. Making lots of trades in the TST combine throughout the day would also give me lots of practice. I also really like the idea of following the nuts and bolt of the auction itself. Isn't that where the fundamental trading actually occurs? I would love to throw away charts altogether!
The following 3 users say Thank You to PaleMetaphor for this post:
I apply order flow techniques in a limited way,
but I am always eager to learn more.
Peter Davies is a great resource for knowledge and a good educator ( must be that British accent ).
Besides the order-flow topic,
he always offers rare insights (for retail traders) into the micro-structure of the markets and current developments of that structure.
great job, TY
The following 2 users say Thank You to puma for this post:
In the welcome video for Jigsaw you mentioned someone named Welly here on futures.io that has some really good stuff on Auction Vista and Jigsaw. How do I find him here? Tried searching threads and maybe I am misspelling the name?
Can RapidTraderPro replay past days sessions? Or at least: if I connect to my datafeed, can I load past days in the Auction Vista chart to visually review them?
)
