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Jigsaw Trading's Peter Davies - Ask Me Anything (AMA)


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Jigsaw Trading's Peter Davies - Ask Me Anything (AMA)

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  #101 (permalink)
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khe91 View Post
"Always start in simulation" is disabled
It's a NT problem ... hoping for NT 8.1 ;-)

Nope - this is a Jigsaw problem - or rather, a problem we can resolve in Jigsaw - just not on your charts, only on our D*S.

Fix in process.

Cross your fingers..

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  #102 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post

Nope - this is a Jigsaw problem - or rather, a problem we can resolve in Jigsaw - just not on your charts, only on our D*S.

Fix in process.

Cross your fingers..

Thanks for the new 5.2.8 version with the fix. Works well.

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  #103 (permalink)
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Hi Pete,

It would be very nice to have a Sierra Chart version of THE best tools out there...

Meanwhile I'll enjoy Jigsaw tools on Ninja as far as possible.

THANKS

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  #104 (permalink)
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@DionysusToast

hi Pete,

I am back with another question/request/beg.

first the question.

Before the past two updates, when i opened up the S5 trader at anytime, D&S would automatically populate the volume profile based on the the start of the "session" (in quotes because the way OEC does sessions is inexplicably idiotic). But now, when i open S5, the volume profile starts collecting from the point where Jigsaw initiates the connection. is that by design? or do i have something in the settings that is causing this? For ex: During ETH, if i open up S5 at say 10 PM EST, the D&S used to download the volume for the entire ETH. however now, the construction of the vol profile begins at when D&S gets the data connection.

Now the request. I mentioned this in the chat room as well and I hope this would be useful for other OEC/S5 users. the volume profile clear button is FANTASTIC....but if there was ANY way to incorporate an option that clears the profile at a user specified time that would be MORE FANTASTIC. if someone cannot be at the screen at 9:29:29 to manually click the button it sort of makes it difficult afterwards, as you already know, it does not give the right picture. another scenario (from personal experience multiple times). say the clear profile button is pressed at the right time and afterwards OEC/S5 crashes and it shuts down or has to be restarted, the vol profile just downloads the entire OEC "session" instead of the time (9:30:00) the clear volume button was pressed.

Any chance this could possibly be considered, I, and most likely many OEC users, will be very very grateful. you are the only hope because OEC is deaf when it comes to listening to their customers plea for actual session breakdown settings.

A massive jigsaw fan...

Cheers

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  #105 (permalink)
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Bango View Post
Hi Pete,

It would be very nice to have a Sierra Chart version of THE best tools out there...

Meanwhile I'll enjoy Jigsaw tools on Ninja as far as possible.

THANKS

I second that idea. Jigsaw would make SC the most complete trading platform. (For me).
Currently using 3 different softwares because of that.

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rhuz View Post
I second that idea. Jigsaw would make SC the most complete trading platform. (For me).
Currently using 3 different softwares because of that.

Funny you should say that.

Something in the pipeline for Sierra lovers. Hopefully in the next few weeks.

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haljordan View Post
@DionysusToast

hi Pete,

I am back with another question/request/beg.

first the question.

Before the past two updates, when i opened up the S5 trader at anytime, D&S would automatically populate the volume profile based on the the start of the "session" (in quotes because the way OEC does sessions is inexplicably idiotic). But now, when i open S5, the volume profile starts collecting from the point where Jigsaw initiates the connection. is that by design? or do i have something in the settings that is causing this? For ex: During ETH, if i open up S5 at say 10 PM EST, the D&S used to download the volume for the entire ETH. however now, the construction of the vol profile begins at when D&S gets the data connection.

Now the request. I mentioned this in the chat room as well and I hope this would be useful for other OEC/S5 users. the volume profile clear button is FANTASTIC....but if there was ANY way to incorporate an option that clears the profile at a user specified time that would be MORE FANTASTIC. if someone cannot be at the screen at 9:29:29 to manually click the button it sort of makes it difficult afterwards, as you already know, it does not give the right picture. another scenario (from personal experience multiple times). say the clear profile button is pressed at the right time and afterwards OEC/S5 crashes and it shuts down or has to be restarted, the vol profile just downloads the entire OEC "session" instead of the time (9:30:00) the clear volume button was pressed.

Any chance this could possibly be considered, I, and most likely many OEC users, will be very very grateful. you are the only hope because OEC is deaf when it comes to listening to their customers plea for actual session breakdown settings.

A massive jigsaw fan...

Cheers

It's supposed to grab the profile since the start of the session. As you know with OEC - that's right back to the start of the Globex session.

We can fix this (and so could OEC) but right now I am whipping 3 developers over a larger project of which this is a part.

If I can bring this portion forwards, I will - otherwise it's scheduled for Q1 2015.

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  #108 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
It's supposed to grab the profile since the start of the session. As you know with OEC - that's right back to the start of the Globex session.

We can fix this (and so could OEC) but right now I am whipping 3 developers over a larger project of which this is a part.

If I can bring this portion forwards, I will - otherwise it's scheduled for Q1 2015.

You had mentioned that the session profile of OEC was scheduled for next year in response to my prior question on this message board. But i thought the clear profile button was the workaround and you had moved it up from 2015 to now and this was it. So there is additional functionality scheduled in 2015 for the OEC sessions problem then. thanks a LOT. it will be VERY useful considering OEC does not care.

Regarding the D&S not downloading the entire OEC session profile when i start OEC trader at a random time, i don't think i have explained my question correctly. I will try to capture a screenshot of this to give you a better idea of what I am trying to ask.

Once again, thanks a lot for your consideration and all your time.

Have a great remainder of the weekend.

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haljordan View Post
You had mentioned that the session profile of OEC was scheduled for next year in response to my prior question on this message board. But i thought the clear profile button was the workaround and you had moved it up from 2015 to now and this was it. So there is additional functionality scheduled in 2015 for the OEC sessions problem then. thanks a LOT. it will be VERY useful considering OEC does not care.

Regarding the D&S not downloading the entire OEC session profile when i start OEC trader at a random time, i don't think i have explained my question correctly. I will try to capture a screenshot of this to give you a better idea of what I am trying to ask.

Once again, thanks a lot for your consideration and all your time.

Have a great remainder of the weekend.

Correct - the clear profile is a work around.

The session settings is still needed to properly automate it and is part of the larger project.

I look forward to seeing the screen shot.

I think it's not so much OEC don't care as much as they have a lot on their plate right now. They have actually been very reactive to stuff we've been discussing with them. For instance the improvements in bid/ask matching they made in late 2013 was partly as a result of discussions we had with them. They've also done work behind the scenes to support what Jigsaw is doing as well as giving us heads up when they do something that may interfere with the way we integrate.

So OEC have been instrumental in use delivering on that platform and helping both with requests from Jigsaw and Stage 5 (and sometimes both), it's just a lot of that is invisible to you as you just see the finished product.

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  #110 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
Correct - the clear profile is a work around.

The session settings is still needed to properly automate it and is part of the larger project.

I look forward to seeing the screen shot.

I think it's not so much OEC don't care as much as they have a lot on their plate right now. They have actually been very reactive to stuff we've been discussing with them. For instance the improvements in bid/ask matching they made in late 2013 was partly as a result of discussions we had with them. They've also done work behind the scenes to support what Jigsaw is doing as well as giving us heads up when they do something that may interfere with the way we integrate.

So OEC have been instrumental in use delivering on that platform and helping both with requests from Jigsaw and Stage 5 (and sometimes both), it's just a lot of that is invisible to you as you just see the finished product.

boss, if you say so we will give OEC a pass :-). if they helped you out, they helped us out. thanks to them.

Regarding the screenshot, i have been very busy at work and haven't had a chance to actually pay much attention lately. I will try to share the screenshot as soon as i get a chance. apologies on that.
thanks for all your help and your time.

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haljordan View Post
boss, if you say so we will give OEC a pass :-). if they helped you out, they helped us out. thanks to them.

Regarding the screenshot, i have been very busy at work and haven't had a chance to actually pay much attention lately. I will try to share the screenshot as soon as i get a chance. apologies on that.
thanks for all your help and your time.

No worries - in your own time!

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  #112 (permalink)
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Hi Pete,

I also have one question regarding your way of analyzing order flow.
For example, if we have a long breakout, we wait for a retracement/pullback and trade the new long entry. How do you know how long a pullback is? I recently took a trade where the pullback had finished, the market went sideways for 1-2 minutes and then I entered long, but the market dropped again. Is it just analysis to see very early that the market is gonna fall again?

Thank you very much in advance.
Max

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arroganzmaschine View Post
Hi Pete,

I also have one question regarding your way of analyzing order flow.
For example, if we have a long breakout, we wait for a retracement/pullback and trade the new long entry. How do you know how long a pullback is? I recently took a trade where the pullback had finished, the market went sideways for 1-2 minutes and then I entered long, but the market dropped again. Is it just analysis to see very early that the market is gonna fall again?

Thank you very much in advance.
Max

I look for 2 things

1 - Retrace to a "step" in the volume profile
2 - Measured move.

For measured moves, it's also what some people call "harmonics" - pull up a 600-900 tick chart on the ES and look at the pullback sizes. Let's say we move down and we make 8 tick pullbacks. As we move up again in the same day, I'll expect similar sized pullbacks.

I see the pullback size as just a measure of volatility - it's not perfect but it is as good as anything else I've ever seen.

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DionysusToast View Post
I look for 2 things

1 - Retrace to a "step" in the volume profile
2 - Measured move.

For measured moves, it's also what some people call "harmonics" - pull up a 600-900 tick chart on the ES and look at the pullback sizes. Let's say we move down and we make 8 tick pullbacks. As we move up again in the same day, I'll expect similar sized pullbacks.

I see the pullback size as just a measure of volatility - it's not perfect but it is as good as anything else I've ever seen.

Thanks Peter, that helps me very well. Will try this and post it in my journal.

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  #115 (permalink)
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ok..ok what is the best way to learn Jigsaw ... for beginners.
It's very tought at start to understand the conceipt of jigsaw but then what .. how to read the ladders.
What is one signle thing I can do to learn to read and understand Jigsaw. I have 2 hours I can sit a side each day for the next year or so. So how should I spend that time to learn jigsaw..

Please and thank you

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lexxmd View Post
ok..ok what is the best way to learn Jigsaw ... for beginners.
It's very tought at start to understand the conceipt of jigsaw but then what .. how to read the ladders.
What is one signle thing I can do to learn to read and understand Jigsaw. I have 2 hours I can sit a side each day for the next year or so. So how should I spend that time to learn jigsaw..

Please and thank you

There are multiple order flow webinars from Pete on futures.io (formerly BMT)

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  #117 (permalink)
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lexxmd View Post
... I have 2 hours I can sit a side each day for the next year or so. So how should I spend that time to learn jigsaw...

Spend one hour each day watching one of Pete's excellent webinars on futures.io (formerly BMT) and on his site.

Spend the second hour watching the Jigsaw tools on a live market following the guidelines in Pete's beginner videos - ie watching one thing at a time at first.

Rinse and repeat... You should only need a few weeks if you do commit such valuable time.

Richard
Hong Kong
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lexxmd View Post
ok..ok what is the best way to learn Jigsaw ... for beginners.
It's very tought at start to understand the conceipt of jigsaw but then what .. how to read the ladders.
What is one signle thing I can do to learn to read and understand Jigsaw. I have 2 hours I can sit a side each day for the next year or so. So how should I spend that time to learn jigsaw..

Please and thank you

This video shows the "first steps" and why they are the first steps.



This isn't just for Jigsaw but for any order flow tools too in my opinion.

Just this, nothing else, that's all.

Lot's of people see this, ignore it and just try to use it live trading without really taking time to learn it first. The most extreme case was someone that got the tools, lost a lot of money trying to use them live and contacted me for a refund. All in a 3 hour period.

Follow the above and you should improve each day. Look to have made major strides within 10 hours.

But that's not 10 hours in one day - just 1 or 2 hours a day is enough as it's hard to maintain focus initially.

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lexxmd View Post
ok..ok what is the best way to learn Jigsaw ... for beginners.
It's very tought at start to understand the conceipt of jigsaw but then what .. how to read the ladders.
What is one signle thing I can do to learn to read and understand Jigsaw. I have 2 hours I can sit a side each day for the next year or so. So how should I spend that time to learn jigsaw..

Please and thank you

I would extremely recommend SIM trading with the Jigsaw tools.
Unlike (reportedly) majority, I am not a visual type at all. I am more a kinesthetic and auditory-digital type (if you are familiar with NLP personalities) so watching the DOM "only" showed me something but I was not able to find out what it was. Being in a trade let me have a more "palpable" experience and helped me immensely.

My two cents.

Successful trading.

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  #120 (permalink)
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Just bought Jigwaw tools over Thanksgiving. So, just getting everything setup.
Saw Dec. 01, Pete was in Chat room. Looked like he logged out @10:00 EST.
QUESTION: Does Pete have a set chat room schedule?

Thanks,

Bushwacker

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bushwacker View Post
Just bought Jigwaw tools over Thanksgiving. So, just getting everything setup.
Saw Dec. 01, Pete was in Chat room. Looked like he logged out @10:00 EST.
QUESTION: Does Pete have a set chat room schedule?

Thanks,

Bushwacker

There's no fixed schedule. It's an informal chat room. It's really meant as a place that customers can talk to each other. More for openness than anything else.

But I do call out levels of interest in advance and I do call out trades if I can do so before they've gone in my favor quickly - then it's pretty pointless calling out a trade I took 4 ticks ago. I found calling out every trade made me extremely risk averse because 'being right' in the room took priority over getting in and out of position.

So the fact we do call out levels/trades is just for entertainment value and not really what it's intended for which is general chat between traders.

Most days I'm in from about 8am and then I post my prep and get more active around 9:30am.

Some days are quite busy with lots of people chatting - last few weeks I've been talking to myself. New people seem to be quite shy about coming in and speaking up. So it's lurkerville in there.

I'm done by lunchtime but if I get what I need before then, I'm out.

I don't go in every day. Some days I'm grumpy and don't bother... Some days my wife insists I take her for dinner.

In terms of what you'd get from me - a handle on the levels as they develop intraday and after a week or so, you will pick up on that and be able to do it yourself.

what you will get from the other people in there is ideas about what they use. It's fairly normal for me to be a few people to be short and then someone to get long in there and so you just have to be sure that if you are in there, you don't let other people's positions sway your opinion.

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  #122 (permalink)
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Hi Peter, can you please talk a bit about what happened today on ES during first hour / hour and half? The volatility was quite high and I did not see any volume clusters forming on the volume profile (just one big flat bell curve, price going all over it). Also on T&S I did not see much, as the price was often jumping up and down few ticks while printing only couple hundredth contracts at each price level, while totals for each price level (on the mentioned volume profile) was cumulating up to 5 digit numbers.

Was there a way to read the T&S in a way that was giving information what/why was this happening? I'm only into my second week using Jigsaw, so I am not very experienced with the tools, but till yesterday I was feeling that I am understanding more and more each day. Today I again started feeling lost with what I'm seeing.

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grasiu View Post
Hi Peter, can you please talk a bit about what happened today on ES during first hour / hour and half? The volatility was quite high and I did not see any volume clusters forming on the volume profile (just one big flat bell curve, price going all over it). Also on T&S I did not see much, as the price was often jumping up and down few ticks while printing only couple hundredth contracts at each price level, while totals for each price level (on the mentioned volume profile) was cumulating up to 5 digit numbers.

Was there a way to read the T&S in a way that was giving information what/why was this happening? I'm only into my second week using Jigsaw, so I am not very experienced with the tools, but till yesterday I was feeling that I am understanding more and more each day. Today I again started feeling lost with what I'm seeing.

Agreed. In the AM it moved around like Crude. So the action was different. Not my cup of tea to be honest but after 10:30 it slowed down a bit.

It was 2 sided and the 2 sides were pushing against each other. There were icebergs but they were not stopping the market.

What I observed in the turns was mostly one side fading. So we had regular moves of 6-8 ticks for example

440 sell & tick down, 500 sell & tick down, 600 sell & tick down, 450 sell & tick down, 400 sell & tick down
Then 50 sold
Tick up
Back Down and 40 sold
Tick up

You got a fairly decent down momentum move and then an oscillation between a few prices where the ticks down just could not hold.

Look for this today if we have the same sort of pace. Look for that 3 tick wiggle at the end of a good momentum run.

At the 3 tick wiggle - don't expect them to hang around for long - I missed a number of fills on longs trying to hit into the offer as they started to pull but it went without me.

In terms of T&S - if you look at the above scenario, what you are seeing is size selling down to an area and then stopping. By the time size steps in on the other sides, you've missed 3 ticks because of the lack of liquidity. You want to see them selling down and the more large sells into the low the better because there's more trapped there. You just want 30-90 seconds with no large sell so it can dawn on them that they are stuck.

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DionysusToast View Post

At the 3 tick wiggle - don't expect them to hang around for long - I missed a number of fills on longs trying to hit into the offer as they started to pull but it went without me.

In terms of T&S - if you look at the above scenario, what you are seeing is size selling down to an area and then stopping.

Funny, this is what happens in small ranges (up to 8-10 ticks) in a balanced area on German Bund all the time except for that small size at the end of the move. There is virtually none. There is no "stopping". It is either, or, and you have no time to change your mind, you have to ACT.
The same happens on pullbacks but those are usually 3, 5 ticks maximum and the "small numbers" at the end can be 8 compared to 400-600 contracts just one price level ago.

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hadamkov View Post
Funny, this is what happens in small ranges (up to 8-10 ticks) in a balanced area on German Bund all the time except for that small size at the end of the move. There is virtually none. There is no "stopping". It is either, or, and you have no time to change your mind, you have to ACT.
The same happens on pullbacks but those are usually 3, 5 ticks maximum and the "small numbers" at the end can be 8 compared to 400-600 contracts just one price level ago.

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Interesting stuff.

I think we'd better keep this to ourselves!

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  #126 (permalink)
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Thanks for the reply Peter.



DionysusToast View Post
Agreed. In the AM it moved around like Crude. So the action was different.

At times like this, if the ES starts moving like CL, maybe treasuries start moving like ES? For a beginner just learning to watch T&S, would you suggest to maybe switch to treasuries during a high volatility day like this or should one stay on ES (the learn more vs learn too much dilemma)?

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grasiu View Post
Thanks for the reply Peter.


At times like this, if the ES starts moving like CL, maybe treasuries start moving like ES? For a beginner just learning to watch T&S, would you suggest to maybe switch to treasuries during a high volatility day like this or should one stay on ES (the learn more vs learn too much dilemma)?

If it's just one day, I think better to stand aside.

If it looks to last, then you have a choice of either switching to an instrument with the liquidity you are used to or gritting your teeth and figuring out how it's playing out.

If you are new to it, I'd look to switch.

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  #128 (permalink)
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Hi, Peter,
I would like to ask why when I submit buy limit order below best bid,
snapshot column doesnt reflect my commitment. Its because simulation
mode probably, yep?

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Dolar View Post
Hi, Peter,
I would like to ask why when I submit buy limit order below best bid,
snapshot column doesnt reflect my commitment. Its because simulation
mode probably, yep?

You are right - it just shows the limit orders @ the exchange and your SIM order ain't there!

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  #130 (permalink)
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Hi Peter,

what I call vacuums, the fast explosive moves that are likely to pullback due to having used up all the short term fuel - verses what I call grinding action, which has constant supply of fuel (therefore don't fade!), are two concepts that I now have a greater understanding of what's occurring having just watched your 2 webinars on futures.io (formerly BMT).... so thank you - I plan on watching them again


Question: Trying to get my head around what is happening in the two examples below in relation to using CD in determining bias
I recognise both days traded in a range between previous days highs and lows, however I'm surprised to see the CD trending so strongly to the upside.

thanks again


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grasiu View Post
At times like this, if the ES starts moving like CL, maybe treasuries start moving like ES? For a beginner just learning to watch T&S, would you suggest to maybe switch to treasuries during a high volatility day like this or should one stay on ES (the learn more vs learn too much dilemma)?

If you're brand new to reading the DOM then I'd suggest a slower market in the beginning. My person preference for something slower and easier to read is the Bund or even Euro Stoxx (FESX). A much easier thing to read when starting out. If those don't work out well for your timezone then I'd consider the treasuries.

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kickmic View Post
Hi Peter,

...
Question: Trying to get my head around what is happening in the two examples below in relation to using CD in determining bias
I recognise both days traded in a range between previous days highs and lows, however I'm surprised to see the CD trending so strongly to the upside.

thanks again

If I may,
This is a question of interpreting CD. There are many posts in various threads concerning this phenomenon and many futures.io (formerly BMT) members would tell you that you cannot interpret CD as any other technical indicator and that they would not use it in their analysis because it is not reliable.

To be as clear and simple as possible, it depends on whether the market is currently market (orders) driven or limit (orders) driven. That is all. You have to watch the movement and the CD but you may never know how long the market will be limit driven (with CD diverging). But you need to be aware of it and not follow CD blindly.

My two cents.

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  #133 (permalink)
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Hey Peter,

I've talked with some traders who told me to enter a trade with Tape reading where the Big Players take trades. He has Levels in his Dom. How do I know these Levels? Can you give an advice?

Many thanks in advance.

Edit: I Think these are Key Levels for institutions.

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kickmic View Post
Hi Peter,

what I call vacuums, the fast explosive moves that are likely to pullback due to having used up all the short term fuel - verses what I call grinding action, which has constant supply of fuel (therefore don't fade!), are two concepts that I now have a greater understanding of what's occurring having just watched your 2 webinars on futures.io (formerly BMT).... so thank you - I plan on watching them again


Question: Trying to get my head around what is happening in the two examples below in relation to using CD in determining bias
I recognise both days traded in a range between previous days highs and lows, however I'm surprised to see the CD trending so strongly to the upside.

thanks again


Sorry I missed this one.

One of the things to remember with CD analysis, it works better on thicker markets. On some markets delta can go the opposite way to price for an extended period. If you think about it, if a market is regularly wiggling around 4-6 ticks as crude does, you can very easily get a fill on a limit order. With a thick market that is not the case, so if you want in now, you really have to use a market order.

The other thing to note is that CD will not help much at the end of the day when people are unwinding their positions. That end of day action can be really odd - sitting at levels churning many thousands of contracts/shares/

So with both of these markets you first have to step back and consider how well delta appears to work at all - go back over 20-30 days worth. Does it appear relevant at all? Is it breaking down at the open/close?

On the pic on the left, I can't see the times but it does appear that the upshift in delta is towards the end of the day. The size of that delta shift has re-scaled the earlier delta which looks almost flat. So I'd shift that chart over a bit and look at the earlier part of the day without that ending move rescaling the delta.

For the chart on the right - is that flat spot in the middle some missing data for GOMI CD?

Anyway - go back first & see how well it works in general on those markets. I'd be very interested to hear your observations.

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arroganzmaschine View Post
Hey Peter,

I've talked with some traders who told me to enter a trade with Tape reading where the Big Players take trades. He has Levels in his Dom. How do I know these Levels? Can you give an advice?

Many thanks in advance.

Edit: I Think these are Key Levels for institutions.

Well - any place that's nice & obvious and lots of people can see is a good level. Pull up a 1 or 2 hour chart and look at the major reversal points.

You want a price that lots of people can see. Those are areas lots of people tend to get in which means there's lots of people to nudge out of position.

I wouldn't say these are ideal areas to enter though. They are great for large traders that can nudge the market about - but is that really the best place to get in?

Intraday, you might not get close to a prior key reversal point and my own opinion is that playing the "steps" and "high volume nodes" that develop off the intraday volume profile is where the money is.

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DionysusToast View Post
Well - any place that's nice & obvious and lots of people can see is a good level. Pull up a 1 or 2 hour chart and look at the major reversal points.

You want a price that lots of people can see. Those are areas lots of people tend to get in which means there's lots of people to nudge out of position.

I wouldn't say these are ideal areas to enter though. They are great for large traders that can nudge the market about - but is that really the best place to get in?

Intraday, you might not get close to a prior key reversal point and my own opinion is that playing the "steps" and "high volume nodes" that develop off the intraday volume profile is where the money is.

Thank you very much! By steps you mean the high volume nodes or just the steps behind a high volume node? Do you think Globex High/Low and VAH/VAL is important too?

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arroganzmaschine View Post
Thank you very much! By steps you mean the high volume nodes or just the steps behind a high volume node? Do you think Globex High/Low and VAH/VAL is important too?

By steps I mean the steps either side of a high volume node.

I do think globexl hi/low and vah/val are important but I prefer not to trade them as those areas are very crowded. I'd rather have those areas resolve themselves and then jump on whichever side 'wins' for a smaller chunk of the move.

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DionysusToast View Post
By steps I mean the steps either side of a high volume node.

I do think globexl hi/low and vah/val are important but I prefer not to trade them as those areas are very crowded. I'd rather have those areas resolve themselves and then jump on whichever side 'wins' for a smaller chunk of the move.

Thank you! Helps a lot to understand order flow a bit better!

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DionysusToast View Post
By steps I mean the steps either side of a high volume node.

I do think globexl hi/low and vah/val are important but I prefer not to trade them as those areas are very crowded. I'd rather have those areas resolve themselves and then jump on whichever side 'wins' for a smaller chunk of the move.


Would you prefer Trading the ES as a beginner or the treasuries? Because I saw Nice order flow activity in the ZN.

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DionysusToast View Post
Sorry I missed this one.....


Anyway - go back first & see how well it works in general on those markets. I'd be very interested to hear your observations.

Thank you Peter for the thoughtful response.

I'll follow up with you when I have studied the markets I posted further

CD was text book "6-ish this morning" (I'm in Melbourne Aus) on the YM (a market that acts more like my index futures than say the more rotated and thicker ES)

FYI, I also pay attention to an indicator I created by combining other ideas



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arroganzmaschine View Post
Would you prefer Trading the ES as a beginner or the treasuries? Because I saw Nice order flow activity in the ZN.

I think it comes down to your personality.

Right now, it's very volatile, so there's a lot of action in the ZN.

A lot of the time though - it can be a real sleepy market. So it all boils down to what suits you.

I know Crude traders that like to trade it because of all the action - nut it's too fast for me.


My opinion - it's best to go through a "market selection" phase - just spend a few days looking at various markets when you start and see if one resonates with you.

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  #142 (permalink)
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Hello Pete!

Just YESTERDAY I was wondering about to ask you for something like Stage5TradeAnalyzer version for Jigsaw.

WOOOOOW...



But, when a Jigsaw plugin for Sierra Chart?

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Bango View Post
Hello Pete!

Just YESTERDAY I was wondering about to ask you for something like Stage5TradeAnalyzer version for Jigsaw.

WOOOOOW...



But, when a Jigsaw plugin for Sierra Chart?

#santawishlist

Yes Peter, Jigsaw plugin for Sierra Chart would be great! Can you give some information on that?

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  #144 (permalink)
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arroganzmaschine View Post
Yes Peter, Jigsaw plugin for Sierra Chart would be great! Can you give some information on that?

I third that question - I'm thinking of migrating fully from Multicharts to SierraChart and it would be great to have Jigsaw available on a platform that has such low CPU utilization as well as great TPO and VP capability

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  #145 (permalink)
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That would certainly be a nice option

Do you guys support/ use DTN IQFeed?

Thanks

-Bill

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  #146 (permalink)
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Looks like Jigsaw Tools work with Sierra Charts via Stage 5 Trading:

Sierra Chart + Jigsaw + S5 Trader (OEC Trader) - Jigsaw Trading

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Hey Peter,

I'm back with a few questions:
- Do you use VWAP in your trading? Is it an important level?
- How do you define a settlement? And what is it?
- When does the globex session for the ES starts and ends?
- Do you use yesterday's VAH/L?

Thanks in advance and good trading!

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arroganzmaschine View Post
Hey Peter,

I'm back with a few questions:
- Do you use VWAP in your trading? Is it an important level?
- How do you define a settlement? And what is it?
- When does the globex session for the ES starts and ends?
- Do you use yesterday's VAH/L?

Thanks in advance and good trading!


I don't trade off VWAP personally.

Settlement I get from this page: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/e-mini-sandp500.html

A good description of settlement is here: pricing - The difference between Close price and Settelment Price for future contracts - Quantitative Finance Stack Exchange

For Globex - it opens at 5pm Chicago time but for me I count anything outside of the regular stock trading session as Globex. Official times are here: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/e-mini-sandp500_contract_specifications.html

And yes - I always have an eye on yesterdays VAL/VAH from the cash/pit/stock session only

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DionysusToast View Post
I don't trade off VWAP personally.

Settlement I get from this page: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/e-mini-sandp500.html

A good description of settlement is here: pricing - The difference between Close price and Settelment Price for future contracts - Quantitative Finance Stack Exchange

For Globex - it opens at 5pm Chicago time but for me I count anything outside of the regular stock trading session as Globex. Official times are here: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/e-mini-sandp500_contract_specifications.html

And yes - I always have an eye on yesterdays VAL/VAH from the cash/pit/stock session only

Thanks! Helps me a lot to understand key levels a bit better.

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  #150 (permalink)
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@DionysusToast

Interesting note on the cash levels, thank you

For /CL I would not know where to go but with /6E no problem

And yes sir on the settlement levels, very important lesson taught to me by @Cashish

For those interested to the tick dot com has a FREE email service with fillable/ printable PDF's for the major futs markets (they use settlement) with daily news, notes etc

Anyway, thank you

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Hi Peter

Thanks for your useful comments in my journal.

You mentioned about the bulk trades not able to move up the price i.e someone absorbing and then price reversing back. Iceberg order is one example, i guess.

A similar event happened between 9.35 and 9.45 - Huge spike up in Cum Delta (aka Market orders) and big numbers in your recon tape) with price not moving up. It pull backed a little but soon reversed to the upside and went up 5 points. I have attached few screen shots if my above description is confusing.

I want to know your take on that market action. Also about the use of Cum Delta in that situation. Or am I reading too much into the opening action?

(I took a sim trade based on divergence and stopped out as described in my journal)

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drms76 View Post
Hi Peter

Thanks for your useful comments in my journal.

You mentioned about the bulk trades not able to move up the price i.e someone absorbing and then price reversing back. Iceberg order is one example, i guess.

A similar event happened between 9.35 and 9.45 - Huge spike up in Cum Delta (aka Market orders) and big numbers in your recon tape) with price not moving up. It pull backed a little but soon reversed to the upside and went up 5 points. I have attached few screen shots if my above description is confusing.

I want to know your take on that market action. Also about the use of Cum Delta in that situation. Or am I reading too much into the opening action?

(I took a sim trade based on divergence and stopped out as described in my journal)

Valid observations and a valid time to take a trade too.

If you think about it - if you considered longs to be trapped around 98, where would your stop be? Not far the other side of 98. If the trade works out it has good downside potential.

So whilst nothing works all the time, the risk:reward on a trade like this is very good.

Also - if a price is holding - you don't need for it to break before exiting. You can just wait for the offers to shrink before you bail - basically getting out before the offers disappear.

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  #153 (permalink)
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Hi Peter,
Where can I get the swing indicator that you use and demo in your videos?

Thank you

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Hi Peter,

I'm wondering how Jigsaw tools are being affected by the new Cme MDP 3.0? Have you already taken a look into it?

Nothing changes in respect of all other futures markets, right?

Thank you

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Hi Peter,

I'm wondering how Jigsaw tools are being affected by the new Cme MDP 3.0? Have you already taken a look into it?

Nothing changes in respect of all other futures markets, right?

Thank you

With recon tape, there's no need to reconstruct trades with CQG data right now.

For Rithmic, IQFeed/Kinetick - they will still show split trades, so you need to reconstruct trades still.

It may be that larger players not go back to using order splitting bots, so we have a couple of things at play here:

1 - A little uncertainty about what the data providers will finally do
2 - A little uncertainty about how how traders will react to the better info

So I think it's a few months yet till we see how it all plays out.

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@DionysusToast Hi Pete...how does Ninja and Jigsaw work with IB. Need Ninja to look into OF and T&S and hence thinking if IB feed with Ninja is good. Thought of checking in with you

thnx
s

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paps View Post
@DionysusToast Hi Pete...how does Ninja and Jigsaw work with IB. Need Ninja to look into OF and T&S and hence thinking if IB feed with Ninja is good. Thought of checking in with you

thnx
s

IB data feed is the worst for OF MP VP T&S etc. They take snap shots of the data and then bundle them together. Completely useless for us traders using Order Flow.

Check out this post from IQFeed regarding IB's data https://futures.io/brokers-data-feeds/25853-dtn-iqfeed-s-james-global-account-ma...thing-30.html#post498100

They are great for many other things....acct security order execution range of products..........but not data...by design I feel.

Kinetick or better IQFeed (same thing just can connect to other platforms all at once with IQFeed ie NT7 and NT8 at the same time.

Ron

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Yeah use IB for execution/brokerage only. Not for data feed.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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Thanks guys!

Paps - I agree with the above.

The Depth on IB is fine, the time & sales is useless. That's why most IB users use Kinetick/IQFeed - to make up for that.

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@DionysusToast thanks for this thread and the tool

being a user of Jigsaw and have actually come back to it, since i did get it sometime back...as when i 1st used it....was probably not sure what i was looking for.

I feel it is an amazing software

Wondering if any of the below features or add on's are in the works...as there is a lot of value in the sweeps and the snapshot

a) Is there a way to Alert (audio - based on size) when bids/offers are pulled away...guess a audio of snapshot
b) anyway of plotting a)
c) anyway of alerting how fast the bids/offers are being replenished..and perhaps plots of the same
d) Plotting of parameters tied to Reconstructed tape or Summary Tape
e) Counter to keep track of sweeps at different price levels and maybe plots of the same.

thnx
s

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paps View Post
@DionysusToast thanks for this thread and the tool

being a user of Jigsaw and have actually come back to it, since i did get it sometime back...as when i 1st used it....was probably not sure what i was looking for.

I feel it is an amazing software

Wondering if any of the below features or add on's are in the works...as there is a lot of value in the sweeps and the snapshot

a) Is there a way to Alert (audio - based on size) when bids/offers are pulled away...guess a audio of snapshot
b) anyway of plotting a)
c) anyway of alerting how fast the bids/offers are being replenished..and perhaps plots of the same
d) Plotting of parameters tied to Reconstructed tape or Summary Tape
e) Counter to keep track of sweeps at different price levels and maybe plots of the same.

thnx
s

All of this is possible - it's just not high up on our list right now, I'm trying to add more developers as 3 is not enough for what we are trying to do.

It is ON the list though!

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thanks Pete @DionysusToast would love to see a alert settable when orders sweeped.

hoping thats in a upcoming release. for me its the sweeps and the blocks...and the icing if can measure how fast the quotes coming in per action in current conditions "sweeps/blocks vs big orders pulled"

anyways thnx for yr support Jigsaw is freakin great....but a trader wants more

thnx
s

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Hello... During Market Replay on NT7 my the bid and offer is not shown at all.. I even downloaded the level2 data, I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong ?
Thank you

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not sure on market replay as dont use it. so hope someone can address yr question with market replay

but are you are able to see it in live mode...guess means it is enabled and the data provider is sending it in you should be able to see it.


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  #165 (permalink)
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Yes I can see it during with live data.. but not during my market reply

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lexxmd View Post
Hello... During Market Replay on NT7 my the bid and offer is not shown at all.. I even downloaded the level2 data, I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong ?
Thank you

Hello @lexxmd,
I am quite sure it does not work on market replay.
In my opinion, the feature does not record information about bids and offers (i.e. fluctuating limit orders), it records only market orders - i.e. realized trades.
You can "overcome" this by recording the live session.

All the best.

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hadamkov View Post
Hello @lexxmd,
I am quite sure it does not work on market replay. ... ...

Not correct. Market Replay (MR) works perfectly 'most' of the time. Sometimes the data gets messed up, and the figures get split apart and useless.

I was not sure what day the above screenshot came from, but I went to 20 August and found the dreaded data problem. But 21 August is normal, as for most of the time. MR is great with Jigsaw for reviewing the market.

So just bad luck trying to use data on a day when it has been messed up. Following images show August 20 (first 2) with messed up data, and 21 August 2015.

Messed up data:




And normal MR with Jigsaw


Richard
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I removed all the market reply data and reinstalled it.. it;s working fine now ..
Thank you for your help

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hadamkov View Post
Hello @lexxmd,
I am quite sure it does not work on market replay.
In my opinion, the feature does not record information about bids and offers (i.e. fluctuating limit orders), it records only market orders - i.e. realized trades.
You can "overcome" this by recording the live session.

All the best.

Hi

It does work with replay data.

There's 2 ways to get replay data - to record it yourself or to download it from Ninja.

When downloading it from Ninja, make sure to check the "L2 Data" option to get the replay market depth.

Just be aware that the downloaded replay data isn't always perfect - there can be chunks of data missing, sometimes there's L1 data there but no L2 data.

As Richard pointed out - he was unlucky enough to download a period where it was a bit 'iffy'.

On the whole though - the replay data is good - and it's a free service too, so we shouldn't complain too loudly if there's some dead spots.

Pete

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Hello.. can some one please direct me to a live trading room that used the jigsaw .
I;m thinking to learn the jigsaw it would be a good think to join a room that uses it and explains the process of trading with it .

thank you

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I'm find it hard to differentiate between absorption or market exit .
For example there are 1000 sell market order hitting the bid, but instead of ticking down it ticks back up.
Some times it just sits and absorps and absorbs , and at that time I think oo there are buys there and it's going back up, it continous ticking down.

So My question is ...
What is the differentiating characteristics of absorption in one direction vs market exit orders?
thank you

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If you have the software there is an icon which will take you to the room.



lexxmd View Post
Hello.. can some one please direct me to a live trading room that used the jigsaw .
I;m thinking to learn the jigsaw it would be a good think to join a room that uses it and explains the process of trading with it .

thank you


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Hi i think it may not be simple and apparent to judge based only on number of cnts executed. Anyways will add my 2cs which make sense for me. It will be different for others.

My OF experience comes from someone who said Fill them up and they shut up. In other words...for markets to go down....there might be buys...but there is always a Sell Limit. So they buy and then sell. And price will trickle down. Likewise for an up move opposite. But its also not that simple.....this may happen only at key turn points else it is noise and the way market moves. This however goes against rational of traditional price moves....but markets work a certain way. It moves due to big players who will trade in/out without their footsteps being easy to follow.

The trick to my understanding of OF is watching at only key turn points which may or may not come due to OF.

I do not get into 1000 Sells etc otherwise. Also you want to watch the difference in Buy/Sell side LOB which should show/might show otherwise or delta's in LOB. However watching all this play out in split ms or less is definitely tough but not impossible. But if one thinks that the move is directional for ex:- when price moving down...with the 1000 sells....maybe the 1000 sells have already cleared 3-4 Buy LOB levels and one should see continuous Buy LOBs being pulled and Buy Lobs being swept by the Sell Markets which is due to the Sell LOB side being refreshed & stacked or hidden orders executed. When the Down move is stopping likewise the Buy side would be stacked and Sell LOB pulled.

cheers n goodluck


lexxmd View Post
I'm find it hard to differentiate between absorption or market exit .
For example there are 1000 sell market order hitting the bid, but instead of ticking down it ticks back up.
Some times it just sits and absorps and absorbs , and at that time I think oo there are buys there and it's going back up, it continous ticking down.


So My question is ...
What is the differentiating characteristics of absorption in one direction vs market exit orders?
thank you


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lexxmd View Post
I'm find it hard to differentiate between absorption or market exit .
For example there are 1000 sell market order hitting the bid, but instead of ticking down it ticks back up.
Some times it just sits and absorps and absorbs , and at that time I think oo there are buys there and it's going back up, it continous ticking down.

So My question is ...
What is the differentiating characteristics of absorption in one direction vs market exit orders?
thank you

Sometimes you will see a market go down 4-5 ticks, then massive absorption on the bid, then down another 4-5 ticks and same thing, then down 4-5 ticks and same again.

Which makes you think "is that guy with the hundred million dollar account out of his mind?".

But there's not directional entry orders and exit orders - there is also non-directional trading to consider. There's a lot of spread/arb trading. One side of the position would be ES trades, and on the other side on a basket of stocks. But the trader taking that spread will not care which way the ES goes after entry.

My rule of thumb with absorption is that it won't, on it's own, stop a one-way market. But it will on it's own stop a pullback.

Watch the way traders hit into that absorption. Are they easing off at all or are they just gunning it? Is this at a key level - that sort of thing.

In your first video - you are in a trading range and at the POC - the price with the most contracts traded. So it's natural for it to thicken up there as the market likes trading those prices. It's not the best place to enter though - it tends to be the choppiest.

In the second video - a double bottom as noted by your "ssssss" - you have a couple of things going on...
1 - You are in an aggressive move down with few pullbacks
2 - It's a double bottom

So you can certainly expect a pause/some sort of reaction because of the double bottom but fading the market, trying to pick the bottom is the hardest way to trade. Even more so when the move down is so one-sided. Also - it's an area with the most potential profit for market manipulators. Think about it - how many traders are going to be entering at that point (reversal and breakout traders), how much opportunity is that for someone to nudge them out of position and run their stops?

As it was, you got absorption at the bottom but it could only tick up a few ticks - there was no follow through. Personally, I would not have gone long there BUT if it had moved up from there, I would have then stalked a long entry because your potential is all the way to the top of the range and heck - letting the market show it's hand will just cost you 5 or 6 ticks.

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lexxmd View Post
Hello.. can some one please direct me to a live trading room that used the jigsaw .
I;m thinking to learn the jigsaw it would be a good think to join a room that uses it and explains the process of trading with it . thank you

Well I was going to give you a link to the Jigsaw Trading Room from website, but nothing obvious there! Just a page on the DTG service which is confusing, and not the same.

Pete... you need those room samples from blog on a dedicated Trading Room page.

Richard
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Thank you all for the reply ... do professionals read the price ladder on jigsaw all the time or at certain locations, and do they understand what's happening at any give time by looking at the price ladder?

because I have this expectation if i spend hours just in front of the jigsaw i can eventually understand the madness or see certain patterns that will allow me to scalp the market at any give time IS this realistic goal?

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I think many pros into OF do. Also JS does give valuable info. But a tool will only do this much and one might need additional context as the trigger will be pulled finally by the one trading .

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lexxmd View Post
Thank you all for the reply ... do professionals read the price ladder on jigsaw all the time or at certain locations, and do they understand what's happening at any give time by looking at the price ladder?

because I have this expectation if i spend hours just in front of the jigsaw i can eventually understand the madness or see certain patterns that will allow me to scalp the market at any give time IS this realistic goal?

My way of thinking/trading is to have areas you want to conduct business in ahead of time you conceive of during your daily trade assumption/thesis creation usually done in the morning taking into account the over night action as well as everything else you have observed over the past months and years. Looking at the DOM/price ladder and trying to figure out what is happening at any moment in time, as if there is constantly a way to discern what is going on, and make tradable sense out of it, is a sure fire way IMO to over trading and a very poor substitute for a clear plan.

IMO focusing on your risk is the only way to go. How much of your account are you going to risk to find out if your idea for a trade is going to work out? How much are you going to risk during streaks of trades both winning and losing? Streaks happen. Take advantage of them. And also protect from them on trades that don't work out. Most think focusing on the entry is the most important. I think focusing on trade management, market context and taking advantage of market extremes and exits is most important.

Don't be in a hurry to trade. Seek to understand what is going on in the Depth and Sales Jigsaw tool at your key locations never mind the rest of the noise.

I often relate to other businesses I am a patron of. For example restaurants. Home Depot. Amazon etc. Not every "trade" they make works out. Warranty work. Cold soup. Item broken in shipment. A poorly seasoned dish. A hair in a taco....lol..... This is the same thing we do just a diff industry. I look to buy peanut butter at the grocery store when its on sale for example. Not when its at the vpoc. Meaning the price most traded or just the regular price peanut butter is normally sold for. I want a good deal. So I wait for a sale. Sales are for short time periods. Then the price goes back to the "vpoc". I then stand in the grocery store aisle and sell all those jars back I bought on sale to the people that like to buy at the "vpoc"....lol.... So this means in trading have areas you will wait for and them watch the DOM to see if you are correct in your thesis about this area. You might end up waiting 2 or 3 days. So what. You are smart about it. There will still be uncertainty but you can stack the probabilities in your favor this way.
I like to think our business is a more pure form of all this peanut butter talk...lol...without all the complications of employees, massive over head etc etc..... our orders are our employees. But for this simplicity there is a price to pay. Namely retraining your brain to think in probabilities.

Ron

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  #179 (permalink)
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Hi Peter,

I'm working through the training materials, including Joel Parker's materials, and have a suggestion for a new feature for Jigsaw.

Emphasis is made in the various materials that I'm reviewing, that before taking an entry, whatever that entry signal might be, there should be sufficient T&S orders, for this instrument, on this day, that demonstrate others are joining in on this entry point.

My suggestion is the addition of a "Note Wand" (or other name of your liking, maybe "Sniffer Stick"?), that when the user activates by pressing, say Ctrl-F12, and swipes over a section of the T&S Tape that is of interest, the critical info of where the user swiped is transferred to a "Note Tape" that stores throughout the day, summaries of every section the user swiped with the Note Wand". Attached is a very rough mockup of the concept.

The idea, is that summary of order flo at user identified critical pivot points can be stored in the "Note Tape" for reference throughout the day so the user may establish baselines of what was sufficient orders on that day to move the market in the desired direction.

The Notes tape can assist in doing the quick math on the fly as to total orders on a particular pivot that occurred. It should help lesson fatigue.

The Notes Tape should be user definable as to what fields are shown from the T&S tape and should allow for multiple days of summaries being saved at the user's option.

The Notes Tape itself could have a "Merge" and "UnMerge" feature that would allow the user to swipe the cursor over 2 sections of the Notes Tape, that may have been added to the notes tape over say 10 minutes, because things are moving a little slower this time through, resulting in all the summary info that was swiped, being itself merged into a single summary at each price level. This would help see buildup occurring in the current or past pivot that may have gone unnoticed as to reaching the critical threshold level due to some added consolidation this time around as compared to the last pivot. This feature could be activated with another Ctrl Key.

Thanks for your consideration of this idea.

Additionally, I really appreciate all the work you've done in putting Jigsaw together, and the HUGE amount of information you've made available.

All The Best,
CurtisC

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RichardHK View Post
Well I was going to give you a link to the Jigsaw Trading Room from website, but nothing obvious there! Just a page on the DTG service which is confusing, and not the same.

Pete... you need those room samples from blog on a dedicated Trading Room page.

Richard - this far, we haven't had much luck with the trading room.

As you know - we will only do it if the DOM is showing and we've taken 2 good traders so far that have suffered from being watched.

I'm not sure if we'll have a 3rd attempt. But I am in discussion with a number of people.

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lexxmd View Post
Thank you all for the reply ... do professionals read the price ladder on jigsaw all the time or at certain locations, and do they understand what's happening at any give time by looking at the price ladder?

because I have this expectation if i spend hours just in front of the jigsaw i can eventually understand the madness or see certain patterns that will allow me to scalp the market at any give time IS this realistic goal?

All professional day traders I know have some sort of situational awareness before going into the day.

That's a combination of being aware of the fundamentals - news, auctions etc as well as some sort of technical awareness. Like right now on the S&P - we are close to all time highs were we've failed a number of times. So of course, you can't ignore that and participation will change when you get there.

Those employing market making techniques care the least about charts. They just want to provide liquidity at spots where it's pretty safe to do so and then if they get filled, turn that position over very quickly. So charts are pretty much irrelevant but what is very relevant is correlated markets because it is of utmost importance to these guys whether the market is directional or not in the very short term and you really need participation increases across markets to be assured of that.

Spreaders, similarly don't care too much about charts and there's more pro's spreading than trading outrights. Again, there will be times that a fundamental shift could impact the spread relationship, so you have to have an eye on that (like a Fed rate hike)

As for outright scalpers - it's a mixed bag from what I have seen. At the end of the day, there are areas where participation WILL likely change if you move through a chart level. This isn't so much a guarantee that a level will hold or not in the long term but I do know fairly big traders that watch levels that would be considered "key technical levels" and just scalp the pause that often occurs there.

I think what it comes down to - if you go into the prop world, they will keep you away from charts and have you scalping smaller targets off the order flow until you are in profit. That doesn't necessarily become the end-goal though. As a trader progresses, they can move towards longer term trades which means incorporating the intraday volume profile too.

Most of the trading we see in markets like the S&P500 Futures is intraday speculation. Hence the use of Volume Profiles/Footprints to get a better idea of where people are positions for longer term analysis and trades with slightly larger targets. Bottom line being that the key thing on any day is how this speculative activity is playing out or if there's a relative lack of it.

For thicker markets like US treasuries - there's not much point looking at a chart intraday. There's barely any swings. Crude on the other hand has tons of swings and therefore the charts/footprint (in my opinion) help you to see the stop-out points easier than a straight volume profile would.

So - yes you can scalp without charts. In the retail world - people start off with charts and then some will stumble into order flow/DOM. In the prop world (certainly for futures) - it is the reverse, people are pushed to get to profit without charts and then later (once they know what really moves the markets) may look at incorporating charts.

Personally - I like charts for bias and for swing sizes.

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Blash View Post
My way of thinking/trading is to have areas you want to conduct business in ahead of time you conceive of during your daily trade assumption/thesis creation usually done in the morning taking into account the over night action as well as everything else you have observed over the past months and years. Looking at the DOM/price ladder and trying to figure out what is happening at any moment in time, as if there is constantly a way to discern what is going on, and make tradable sense out of it, is a sure fire way IMO to over trading and a very poor substitute for a clear plan.

IMO focusing on your risk is the only way to go. How much of your account are you going to risk to find out if your idea for a trade is going to work out? How much are you going to risk during streaks of trades both winning and losing? Streaks happen. Take advantage of them. And also protect from them on trades that don't work out. Most think focusing on the entry is the most important. I think focusing on trade management, market context and taking advantage of market extremes and exits is most important.

Don't be in a hurry to trade. Seek to understand what is going on in the Depth and Sales Jigsaw tool at your key locations never mind the rest of the noise.

I often relate to other businesses I am a patron of. For example restaurants. Home Depot. Amazon etc. Not every "trade" they make works out. Warranty work. Cold soup. Item broken in shipment. A poorly seasoned dish. A hair in a taco....lol..... This is the same thing we do just a diff industry. I look to buy peanut butter at the grocery store when its on sale for example. Not when its at the vpoc. Meaning the price most traded or just the regular price peanut butter is normally sold for. I want a good deal. So I wait for a sale. Sales are for short time periods. Then the price goes back to the "vpoc". I then stand in the grocery store aisle and sell all those jars back I bought on sale to the people that like to buy at the "vpoc"....lol.... So this means in trading have areas you will wait for and them watch the DOM to see if you are correct in your thesis about this area. You might end up waiting 2 or 3 days. So what. You are smart about it. There will still be uncertainty but you can stack the probabilities in your favor this way.
I like to think our business is a more pure form of all this peanut butter talk...lol...without all the complications of employees, massive over head etc etc..... our orders are our employees. But for this simplicity there is a price to pay. Namely retraining your brain to think in probabilities.

Ron

Good post

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ahh.......... Just now saw your email Peter


Somebodies been hard at work with the team of skilled coders.......

Looks like an edge of some degree to little old me and I take whatever edge I can. Thanks Peter.

......Just took on a new meaning?????



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Blash View Post
ahh.......... Just now saw your email Peter


Somebodies been hard at work with the team of skilled coders.......

Looks like an edge of some degree to little old me and I take whatever edge I can. Thanks Peter.

......Just took on a new meaning?????

Ron

Thanks Ron - it was Keng that did all the work - I just take the credit..

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Yupp thnx Pete. I had missed yr email on the release and caught it in my twtr feed when saw someone using it.

Got it downloaded last evening just before the drop on ES happened or was happening. So was able to play while trading the move since yester OVN.

Still need to play with it for optimal settings. But seems we have something useful there. Lots of balls bouncing all around .. Sweet

Thnx


Blash View Post
ahh.......... Just now saw your email Peter


Somebodies been hard at work with the team of skilled coders.......

Looks like an edge of some degree to little old me and I take whatever edge I can. Thanks Peter.

......Just took on a new meaning?????



Ron


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paps View Post
Yupp thnx Pete. I had missed yr email on the release and caught it in my twtr feed when saw someone using it.

Got it downloaded last evening just before the drop on ES happened or was happening. So was able to play while trading the move since yester OVN.

Still need to play with it for optimal settings. But seems we have something useful there. Lots of balls bouncing all around .. Sweet

Thnx

Great - we have a few more things coming before it goes 'live' - settings, wise there shouldn't be much to set as it's 'self-learning' in terms of knowing where large volume traded, although - we are having to wise that up a bit and you will see that out in the next few days.

The only real settings are the pixels per interval - I prefer 2 or 3 and then the interval - which I like to set about 3 or 4 - but I switch it around as I want to see more/less history. The intent is for the settings you need to use intraday will all be on that main window, so if it's not on that main window, you should be able to use the defaults.

And for the perpetual tinkerers - there's always the settings window.....

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Pete luv the way with click of a button... it shows up the chart which is the heat map.

Wish we had similar stuff for drawing up a R / S tape. Not sure if thats possible in a future wish list.

normally have it setup in this config ...as do not use much of the stuff in Depth Window


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paps View Post
Pete luv the way with click of a button... it shows up the chart which is the heat map.

Wish we had similar stuff for drawing up a R / S tape. Not sure if thats possible in a future wish list.

normally have it setup in this config ...as do not use much of the stuff in Depth Window


Actually - you'll be able to run all the tools @ the push of a button soon-ish.

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DionysusToast View Post
All of this is possible - it's just not high up on our list right now, I'm trying to add more developers as 3 is not enough for what we are trying to do.

It is ON the list though!

Hi Pete...revisiting original request to see if any on radar now.

"
Wondering if any of the below features or add on's are in the works...as there is a lot of value in the sweeps and the snapshot

a) Is there a way to Alert (audio - based on size) when bids/offers are pulled away...guess a audio of snapshot
b) anyway of plotting a)
c) anyway of alerting how fast the bids/offers are being replenished..and perhaps plots of the same
d) Plotting of parameters tied to Reconstructed tape or Summary Tape
e) Counter to keep track of sweeps at different price levels and maybe plots of the same.
"

Hence thought of checking. Any chance of getting any of this from one of the best OF tool out there.

What I would really love is perhaps a start / stop button which then calculates and display Tape Delta using R Tape. And will be amaaaazziiing if any APIs or functions to get this done problematically based on another indicator in Ninja.

cheers & best

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FYI
To everyone even slightly interested in the Jigsaw tools IMHO the wise thing to do right now is purchase them because the Auction Vista Heatmap, while in beta, is included in the current price which is already an extremely a fair and value driven price IMHO.

The latest YouTube video about the Heatmap beta2 release.

https://youtu.be/Oo9ptC89UGg

Ron


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hi... @Blash i installed. How do we know i have the correct version. Was on Beta 1. How do i know Beta 2 is correctly installed. anyway to check

thnx

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ok...got response from Pete. We will see Circle Tuner.



thnx

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@paps cool kool
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paps View Post
Hi Pete...revisiting original request to see if any on radar now.

"
Wondering if any of the below features or add on's are in the works...as there is a lot of value in the sweeps and the snapshot

a) Is there a way to Alert (audio - based on size) when bids/offers are pulled away...guess a audio of snapshot
b) anyway of plotting a)
c) anyway of alerting how fast the bids/offers are being replenished..and perhaps plots of the same
d) Plotting of parameters tied to Reconstructed tape or Summary Tape
e) Counter to keep track of sweeps at different price levels and maybe plots of the same.
"

Hence thought of checking. Any chance of getting any of this from one of the best OF tool out there.

What I would really love is perhaps a start / stop button which then calculates and display Tape Delta using R Tape. And will be amaaaazziiing if any APIs or functions to get this done problematically based on another indicator in Ninja.

cheers & best

a - it's on our list - but bigger things got in the way. Auction Vista is NOT what we spent most of last year working on
b - see a
c - I think that would be part of a
d - That will come - but it'll most likely be plotted on AV and not the chart, then the alerts/data themselves will be made available to developers
e - I'll add that to the feature request list

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DionysusToast View Post
a - it's on our list - but bigger things got in the way. Auction Vista is NOT what we spent most of last year working on
b - see a
c - I think that would be part of a
d - That will come - but it'll most likely be plotted on AV and not the chart, then the alerts/data themselves will be made available to developers
e - I'll add that to the feature request list

many thanks Pete @DionysusToast

What I would really really love is this as below >>>> Now typically this is a trigger from something else i use....but even a manual start stop button may help. And if this is given programmatic interface....it's icing to the Nth degree .

"perhaps a start / stop button which then calculates and display Tape Delta using R Tape."

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Can Auction Vista be used with highly liquid Equities?

"Free markets work because they allow people to be lucky, thanks to aggressive trial and error, not by giving rewards or incentives for skill. The strategy is, then, to tinker as much as possible and try to collect as many Black Swan opportunities as you can"
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Neo1 View Post
Can Auction Vista be used with highly liquid Equities?

Sure - just like Depth & Sales, it will aggregate the bids/offers from the feed - so you will see a sum of all MMs at each level represented.

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On the video you can see ther offers are just absorption a lot, would this be indication that there are offers in the at those level accumulating , or would you see this as aggressiveness of the bids trying to push the price higher.

I thought for a while I was looking at the strengh of the offers by having the ability to just eat up all those contracts gradually off course and I decided to wait and see if there going to be showing there hand and force it down.

Then I thought this actually shows the aggressiveness of the buyers, trying to force it up .

I'm just looking for any further explanation or possibilities that i;m not aware of to further understand how I can approach this

thank you

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lexxmd View Post
On the video you can see ther offers are just absorption a lot, would this be indication that there are offers in the at those level accumulating , or would you see this as aggressiveness of the bids trying to push the price higher.

I thought for a while I was looking at the strengh of the offers by having the ability to just eat up all those contracts gradually off course and I decided to wait and see if there going to be showing there hand and force it down.

Then I thought this actually shows the aggressiveness of the buyers, trying to force it up .

I'm just looking for any further explanation or possibilities that i;m not aware of to further understand how I can approach this

thank you

Super hard to discern anything worthwhile IMHO. Watched your video about 5 times. Can't stand replay ...lol... sorry its so choppy can't get the market flow. Have you had any chance to record the live market? So much better for studying it. Don't be afraid to talk in a video either really helps the viewer understand better what it is you are trying to understand and you then get way more responses to your post. Introduces a human element into the otherwise very dry and boring video.

Basically its at the VPOC/middle in the heart of the VA so all the suckers that hesitate are now trying to get in because they feel like their missing out now. VPOC is good place to get out maybe. VPOC or middle area is a good place to catch up on reading and stuff. So I feel not much at all can be concluded from the trading that happened there and that is a big part of why you are finding it hard to understand and asking for help.

All the best
Ron

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lexxmd View Post
I'm just looking for any further explanation or possibilities that i;m not aware of to further understand how I can approach this

thank you



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The moment you pointed out was the first test of that support lost, thus resistance.

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