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Order Flow Analytics' D.B. Vaello (President) - Ask Me Anything (AMA)


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Order Flow Analytics' D.B. Vaello (President) - Ask Me Anything (AMA)

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  #1 (permalink)
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D.B. Vaello, the President of Order Flow Analytics, will be monitoring this thread so that he may answer any questions that you post here relating to OFA products and services.

Please keep in mind that some customer service/technical support issues are best handled through proper channels at OFA.

OFA (Order Flow Analytics) is well known for their unique approach to order flow concepts, including Order Flow Exhaustion & Momentum Analysis, Volume Cluster Analysis, Stop-Run Analysis, Trader Commitment Analysis, and Volume-Based Pivots & Range Analysis.

In addition to this thread, I will also be asking D.B. Vaello to stop by on occasion for a casual webinar where he can answer questions via audio while also sharing his screen to visually demonstrate any points as needed. The date/time of those sessions will be announced here in this thread. These sessions will be limited to questions only, there is no prepared presentation. After the session ends, the recording will be posted in this thread.

You can find more on their website:
Order Flow Analytics

Feel free to ask any questions below and we'll do our best to get them answered.

The futures.io (formerly BMT) "AMA" (Ask Me Anything) series is by invitation only. It is part of a new program we are launching shortly called "Certified Trustworthy", something that has been months in the making. I will provide all the details of this new program as soon as it is ready for launch.

Mike

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Mike & BMF Members,

Thanks for allowing me to share what I can here. I've been a member for 2+ years but on day-1 Mike rejected my first post because I was identified as a "vendor"... I had no idea how evil that branding was! I was just trying to be a part of the conversation, not dictate the content - regardless here we are so I'd like to make a brief introduction and welcome questions from any and all...

First off, I'm not your typical vendor. I hate sales people and I've bought the same dollar value of garbage that every noob trader today has (or more) - the only difference is I did all that 15 years ago. I remember opening the trade rags and seeing ads with pictures of guys standing in front of mansions with 8 cars parked in front hawking their black box S&P systems - and this is back before the ES. This was the big one and there was no execution process like we have now. You called in orders and went to lunch - awesome strategies! So I've witnessed first hand the evolution of garbage and while it's certainly piled high right now - trust me it's always been that way in one form or another....

So I strive to be different. I'm not a self-proclaimed guru and I'll be the first to tell you I don't make millions trading. I don't have a secret formula and I can't guarantee I'll make you rich. Trading is hard work regardless of your method. Expect to lose before you win and expect to lose after you win... I have losing days just like everyone and sometimes they really hurt. It took me years to get over the break-even-loser stage and while I'm not buying jets and sitting in front of 8 cars, I make more than I lose and I love what I do. After 15 years, that's called winning in any language or currency.

While I'm obviously setup as a vendor here, my real objective is to be a source for those wanting to learn more about order flow - and you don't have to pay me to get straight answers. More importantly I'll tell you the truth when I have no idea how to answer you. I've learned that knowing that you don't know everything generally keeps you profitable as a trader and wealthy in life.

My entire OFA philosophy is considered by most to be in direct contradiction to "what's commonly accepted" in BID-ASK volume theory. I tend to ruffle feathers. The only reason I built OFA was because every vendor I approached 6 years ago with my idea told me to get lost and to "not invade their intellectual property". This is a nasty industry and I prefer to stand on the other side knowing I'll never treat anyone the way I was treated. I embrace others ideas and I try to share freely with people who ask for help... So ask.

I'm happy to answer questions about OFA products and services (which is why Mike set this up) - but I'm more than happy to answer questions about the topic in general (assuming I can). There are lots of free (or cheaper) tools that do similar things - but if you don't know why or how to use them, it wont matter the cost. "Free" will turn into a waste of time - which to most of us equals a waste of money too.

So here's my pitch: Don't buy anything. Ask questions and do your homework.

I look forward to it!

DB Vaello
Order Flow Analytics, Inc.

If you have any questions about the products or services provided by Order Flow Analytics, please send me a Private Message or use the BMT "Ask Me Anything" thread.
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DB,

In terms of usefulness, where do you rank Cumulative Delta? Do you use Cumulative Delta in any of your analysis or trading tools?

I was quite excited about it a couple years ago but then with time determined it did not help my trading. I personally feel it's not a useful tool for my trading, but then again I am really not a scalper.

Second question - Are your tools platform independent, or do they require NinjaTrader to run (as an indicator)?

Mike

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Hi DB,

Will it work with a Kinetick datafeed ?

 
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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
...
So here's my pitch: Don't buy anything. Ask questions and do your homework.

I look forward to it!

DB Vaello
Order Flow Analytics, Inc.

I have a straightforward question for you. I want to begin by saying your tools look impressive and well done. However, when i see the words "order flow" these days i kind of perceive in them a world of complexity. Most tools i have seen so far demand quite a bit of dedication to master. The promise i read from the many examples i see here on futures.io (formerly BMT) and at other places is a lot of work for a meager advantage. So my question is what is order flow for you and why would a trader uses what appears to be complex tools when most of us as we evolve want to simplify things?

 
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Big Mike View Post
DB,

In terms of usefulness, where do you rank Cumulative Delta?



Honestly I rank it pretty low in general concept (with a few exceptions I'll note below) - but to be fair this may be something I'm just too dumb to get my head around... I try to only trade with concepts/methods/tools that follow a constant stream of logic. If I cant understand the logic then I refuse to integrate something into what I'm doing even if "everyone" is talking about it. My issues are pretty simple and I would welcome anyone that uses CD consistently to straighten me out.

Over a span of price movement greater than what is generally accepted as retail psychological limits (so think maybe 2 points in the ES for a novice day trader)... If you're really focused on the swings of the other time frame trader:

1. How do you logically justify the concept that ASK trade is only buyers - meaning NEW trade executing a market long instead of

a. NEW trade executing a limit short
b. Existing shorts exiting with a market buy order
c. Existing longs exiting with a limit sell order

2. Consider the same above for BID trade being only NEW market sellers

3. How do you account for areas of churn in which positions come on and off very often NOT by the same order execution process (Algo triggers market long, price drops a few ticks, algo spreads OCO target/stop with limit uptick/market downtick, the limit uptick target is filled at/near entry) - now you have a CD +2 multiplied by thousands of similar executions all at the same few prices.

4. Consider the MMs and rebate trading

With extremely short term spans of rapid directional movement I can get my head around comparing buyers and sellers. Outside of that I think the logic fails and I assume that's why most traders I encounter have a similar experience to yours. It looks promising but in the end fails to bring any real benefit. Again, I know I don't know everything and I'm happy to be educated on the subject.


Quoting 
Do you use Cumulative Delta in any of your analysis or trading tools?

I was quite excited about it a couple years ago but then with time determined it did not help my trading. I personally feel it's not a useful tool for my trading, but then again I am really not a scalper.

I use it in 2 ways (and have a 3rd included below that I don't use)

1. I calculate the "Net" or CD of individual auction periods. In OFA they're created by what we call Probes and Rotations... A small directional move followed by a counter move. I derived it from Point & Figure concepts and it's evolved over the years going from highly complex uptick/downtick/velocity calculations to incredibly simple ones just using price movement. Sometimes simple is better and I learned my lesson. The purpose of this is not to say a period has more buyers than sellers - but rather to be used as a comparative basis against other auctions of a similar size and time span.

2. I calculate what we call the "COT" which is essentially just the Net of the Rotation or counter move. Again, this is not used by itself but rather as a comparative tool within the current short-term directional movement. I tell traders to think of the speedometer on a car. Without a comparative value, your speed means nothing. If you're going 75 MPH and have nothing to associate that with, it's basically worthless information. If you're going 75 MPH in a 20 MPH school zone then you can make better sense of the situation... Or if you're not moving at all and suddenly the vehicle jumps to 75 MPH you better get a grip.

3. We have a CD tool that we call Inventory Tracking. It allows the user to measure the CD from custom anchor points (maybe the high and low of a developing range) to triangulate the CD relative to the current market prices. It has similar historical functions as well. I give full disclosure to my clients that I do not use this tool because the logic does not make sense to me. It was developed as a custom build request from a prop shop and to reduce the development cost they allowed us to include it in the public version of the application. Some may find use in it - clearly the original clients do - but they did not disclose the how/why part of it to me and after months of fiddling with it I never saw any practical use. I taught a few classes about what I had learned in the hopes that some might find use in it and share that use with me. So far it hasn't happened and that was 2 years ago.


Quoting 
Second question - Are your tools platform independent, or do they require NinjaTrader to run (as an indicator)?

Our model has always been to remain a standalone application do to the limitations of working within a defined programming environment or with groups that originally told me to get lost. We do work with NinjaTrader, but that is simply through an interface - not currently as an indicator or framework. We also work with R-Trader in the public standalone version - again just to interface trade sending and reporting commands. As you can imagine, we do a lot of custom analytical integration with existing proprietary systems so our motto is "anything is possible" but I think you're specifically addressing the retail platform side so here is the answer:

OFAv6 is standalone and can be custom coded to any platform but already interfaces NT and RT
Shortly we will be releasing framework plugins for various retail platforms
We really don't do "indicators" in the general sense because I don't think of OFA as a "system" but rather an analytical framework to assist in merging order flow strategies (why/when) to common trading tactics (where/how).
We'll leave the indicator programming to people using the framework in the hopes of letting them determine the best way for our tools and logic to benefit their trading.

Sorry about being long winded on the replies but thanks for the great questions!

DB

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fido View Post
Hi DB,

Will it work with a Kinetick datafeed ?

As most of you know Kinetick is a private label of another feed designed specifically to interface NinjaTrader. Because of the specific use they do not have a way for external applications to program directly to the feed (no API). Our work around for this is to export the data in real-time from NinjaTrader with a NinjaScript from a tick chart. While not the best possible solution (for many reasons) it does work.

So yes, but there are a whole lot of limitations on what you can do with it.

DB

If you have any questions about the products or services provided by Order Flow Analytics, please send me a Private Message or use the BMT "Ask Me Anything" thread.
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I don't mind naming Kinetick as the OEM of IQFeed. Kinetick is a good brand and Ray has done a good job with it. If you use only NinjaTrader, then it is cheaper than using IQFeed directly. But if you use multiple platforms, IQFeed is the way to go since all of them can connect up simultaneously.

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Big Mike View Post
I don't mind naming Kinetick as the OEM of IQFeed. Kinetick is a good brand and Ray has done a good job with it. If you use only NinjaTrader, then it is cheaper than using IQFeed directly. But if you use multiple platforms, IQFeed is the way to go since all of them can connect up simultaneously.

You bet. I mean no disrespect to Kinetick at all. They provide an excellent feed. From an Order Flow developer's standpoint it would just be easier if we could access the feed directly because of the historical data limitations within NinjaTrader regarding bid/ask/last. No doubt we would all prefer to backfill the data directly rather than record it or write external application do do this for us. Gomi did a phenomenal job overcoming a fundamental issue tied to an ecosystem's limitations. We do it from another perspective - we access the API directly to provide flexibility for the user based on his needs.

Either way, given the extensive testing I've done on broker and subscription data feeds compared to the CME's BBO data, IQfeed (and subsequently Kinetick) rank at the absolute top for a retail (Internet) connection. At one point I manually shuffled through over 2 million ticks of data and IQ had misrepresented 2 ticks, for a total of 3 contracts. If you ever looked at the same comparison of $750-$2500/month feeds you would puke.

I'm proud to work with both companies... I just need to be clear that Kinetick requires an extra couple of steps to interface our standalone product.

DB

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trendisyourfriend View Post
So my question is what is order flow for you and why would a trader uses what appears to be complex tools when most of us as we evolve want to simplify things?

Great question. No doubt many have the same one and many others have posted their answers. Once in a webinar I offered this definition on a slide:

"Monitoring prices, volume and order fluctuations for specific conditions in order to predict the market’s immediate response."

I generally don't read from the slides (as I assume you can read just fine), so I bet I had some pretty smart words for making sense out of that statement but let's face it - that's some vague and general nonsense. So let's break your question into 2 parts...

Question 1: What is order flow for you?

The word "order" assumes you're talking about quotes, not trades. This implies that somewhere in your process you're interested in the order book or market depth rather than just the time & sales data - which would be trade flow? Not sure if that's a term but if all you're doing is plotting trades at/above the ask and at/below the bid then you better have some way of associating them to the best bid and best offer (or full market depth) or else I'm not sure you can honestly say "order" anything.

So for me that's step 1. A recognition that TRADE (ask or bid) must be somehow relative to the quotes (bids or offers). There are lots of complex tools to analyze this but honestly I think it's pretty simple to just look at the depth and compare the print. The DOM is too damn complex given the participants and their various motives to stake your fortune on the numbers that change faster than your platform can even display them. Just a basic comparison of more, less or about average trade v. bid/offer is sufficient for me. It tells me if depth is being added, removed or slammed. Unless that relates to someplace on the chart I'm looking for a trade - I could care less. Keep it simple and keep your scope narrow.

Step 2 for me is the ?trade flow? part. Again, not a common term but that's what they are - trades that have been struck at the bid or ask - not orders anymore. This breaks down into 3 categories with 3 requirements...

Requirements:

1. Bid and Ask volume is compared relative to actual market dynamics - this is where I seem to stand alone. Conventional wisdom (read: applications built by programmers rather than traders) says that the ask volume minus the bid volume at a price dictates an imbalance in trade. I say blah and when given the opportunity to do a futures.io (formerly BMT)F webinar in the near future I'll explain this point in detail and willingly accept the hate mail and knock-offs to follow. I'd rather offer the knowledge than sell a secret.

2. Comparisons of trade are done only in directional movement. If you look at trade over a series of prices that's had the opportunity to move back and forth, up and down - over and over... What value could that possibly provide other than maybe a profiling distribution? I'm not interested in analyzing churn. I need to see a move and process what is happening in real time.

3. No engagement of volume at a single price will provide actionable feedback. We have to see a sequence of trade across several prices to even consider an event.

Categories:

1. Momentum - when is the flow of orders & trade indicating directional action is taking place and what's a realistic expectation for the move? And more importantly does my market perspective support this "move" as being important?

2. Exhaustion - when is the flow of orders & trade indicating the potential for directional action to end - at least temporarily? Again what's realistic for expectations and how does it relate to my market perspective?

3. 2-Sided Trade - the death of all noobs. When do we see bid and ask trade indicating both sides think they have a good reason to engage the market in such a way that almost all longs and shorts both take a beating? Learning to stay out of the market is probably more important then learning when/how/why/where to get in.

Yikes, that was not so simple... So what is order flow? Its a process of associating actionable events in the market data with actionable decision points dictated by your trading tactics/strategy/etc. Is it for everyone, no. But is it complex? Not at all. It's just fluid which many traders hate. Of course many traders aren't really traders...

Question 2: Why would a trader uses what appears to be complex tools when most of us as we evolve want to simplify things?

Agreed. Order Flow is not for every trader. It has a learning curve and it also has practical limitations. But geez, tell me anything in trading that actually works for "any market in any time frame". I get the same crap in my inbox and mailbox you do. Applying something to your trading is work and it takes a realistic data set to determine if any value at all is brought by its inclusion. My experience is that 99% of the trader-consumers (you use something until a few stop-outs and then buy something new) rely on 2 components to engage the market - if they ever really engage the market... (1) Historical fact and (2) Future projections. Isn't it really funny that every single thing you encounter as a trader is IN ALL CAPS required to tell you that "past performance in not indicative of future results"? It's on every email, contract, click bank, website, platform, webinar and account form. Yet what do they do? Back-test a strategy and project future performance. Wow. Sounds brilliant, huh? What's missing from the equation?

Successful complex business systems (and we'd all agree the markets are complex systems) require more than history and projections to be effective. They need current data as well. History is objective - it has happened. The future is subjective regardless of your model. Current data as an equal operator in the equation applies balance to the objective-subjective scale. It makes the analysis adaptive. Order flow represents the current data analysis that many are missing in their historical-future dream world. Not all. And I stress that.

The tools may look complex but they're really not... And Order Flow at it's core is ridiculously simple. I usually teach new clients the 1-2-3 categories above in less than an hour. I was recently doing a training on location for a firm and everyone was surprised when we were done with the Order Flow portion before it was time to get another cup of coffee. That doesn't mean that they left the conference room and were instant experts but they knew exactly what to work on for practical application of the concepts.

My tools and training are based on 4 things and I will rank them on complexity:

1. Order Flow Analysis - easy
2. Volume Cluster Analysis - complex
3. Trader Commitment Analysis - extremely complex
4. Stop-Run Analysis - intermediate

I promise to stop with the War & Peace style posts but given that these first questions/answers might spark something of value for others to contribute, I went all out and long winded.

DB

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I would like to note for everyone that DB will be on futures.io (formerly BMT) for an Order Flow webinar, April 4th @ 4:30 PM ET. There will be a separate event thread for that as we get closer, and it is a full presentation + Q&A like normal webinar events.

But as I mentioned in post #1 and as part of this "Ask Me Anything" series on futures.io (formerly BMT), we'll be doing some more casual and shorter time frame webinars as well, limited to say 30 minutes, with no prepared presentation -- instead just Q&A and see where it takes us over the 30 minute time limit. Those sessions will be posted and uploaded to this thread only.

I'll work with DB to see if we can get one scheduled this month.

Mike

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Hi DB

First, let me disclose that I am the owner of Jigsaw trading - not sure if we compete or compliment but I have seen an overview of your products and they look pretty neat.

Based on your experience - what is it that is bringing so many people to Order Flow now? 18 months ago it was "Price Action" everyone was raving about and now Order Flow is very much in vogue. It is certainly being discussed much more on the various forums.

It's almost as if there can't be a 'next' fad because you can't drill down much lower.

Is this an awakening on the behalf of retailers or is it something you think will become less popular as something new comes along?

Your thoughts?

Cheers

Pete

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  #14 (permalink)
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OFA


1) which vendor provides those 10 depth market levels?

Zenfire, in balancing their demands over loads, provides five levels, as I observed, and frequently turns off access to the historical servers even in the aftermarkets (relative to EST)

2) on thinly traded instruments relative to the massively high volume (bonds, sp5's and currencies), how well does the approach to OFA really work?, as with thin, so much becomes either stretched out or muted in interpretation or followthrough?

thanks

great website, btw.

(pm me, that way I will certainly know I got answered)

 
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DionysusToast View Post
Hi DB

First, let me disclose that I am the owner of Jigsaw trading - not sure if we compete or compliment but I have seen an overview of your products and they look pretty neat.

Based on your experience - what is it that is bringing so many people to Order Flow now? 18 months ago it was "Price Action" everyone was raving about and now Order Flow is very much in vogue. It is certainly being discussed much more on the various forums.

It's almost as if there can't be a 'next' fad because you can't drill down much lower.

Is this an awakening on the behalf of retailers or is it something you think will become less popular as something new comes along?

Your thoughts?

Cheers

Pete

Maybe cognitive bias has something to do with it. Given you are a vendor and promote similar ideas you may focus more on the words "order flow" than the average Joe. The footprint and time and sales come to mind of many when these words are mentionned but the concepts associated with the order flow are often presented within this tunnel vision.

 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Maybe cognitive bias has something to do with it. Given you are a vendor and promote similar ideas you may focus more on the words "order flow" than the average Joe. The footprint and time and sales come to mind of many when these words are mentionned but the concepts associated with the order flow are often presented within this tunnel vision.

On the flip side it is possible that your own cognitive bias leads you to that conclusion and that there actually is more discussion of this side of trading nowadays.

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kronie View Post
OFA


1) which vendor provides those 10 depth market levels?

Zenfire, in balancing their demands over loads, provides five levels, as I observed, and frequently turns off access to the historical servers even in the aftermarkets (relative to EST)

2) on thinly traded instruments relative to the massively high volume (bonds, sp5's and currencies), how well does the approach to OFA really work?, as with thin, so much becomes either stretched out or muted in interpretation or followthrough?

thanks

great website, btw.

(pm me, that way I will certainly know I got answered)


one question that I always wanted to ask of teachers of these methods were along these lines...

A) do you teach your students to avoid the pitfalls, traps and tell-tales that you teach them to look for?, namely keep your:

A1) stops server side so as not to be spotted, and then only allow or preprogram the software to release the stops, when market is touched? or similar?

A2) using that premise, when the server side orders for stop and targets are managed in that manner namely hidden from the general order book, then how do you account for the change in or increase of bids/asks at the offer?

simply put, actually, there's no way to simply put this concept and question.
if you keep your stops/targets hidden and submit when market is touched, then they show up as recently added, and then contribute to the concept of increased participation (valid conclusion); increased demand (invalid conclusion as these are defensive orders that should have been placed upon order being filled)

A3) since most of the conclusions derived from watching the at bid cross price and the orders and the initial verses most recent quantities at that fast moving level, then what can be derived from that analysis, other than sheer interest in market activity?

what can you do with that instant analysis?, place another order to further participate?, pull other existing orders?, confirm that markets are fat?, confirm that markets are thin?

which?

 
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Hi OFA


OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Question 1: What is order flow for you?

The word "order" assumes you're talking about quotes, not trades. This implies that somewhere in your process
you're interested in the order book or market depth rather than just the time & sales data - which would be trade
flow? Not sure if that's a term but if all you're doing is plotting trades at/above the ask and at/below the bid then
you better have some way of associating them to the best bid and best offer (or full market depth) or else I'm not
sure you can honestly say "order" anything.

Watching only Orders coming in and vanishing (pulling) wont help in interpreting current state , so
the Flow of Orders (quotes) actually by itself doesent help alot , if we talk about limit orders
but a Market order is also an order , and a market order (prints) as u can see on the TS , is called
Tape Reading ... so no need to call this orderflow

and Prints are more valuable then Quotes


OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
So for me that's step 1. A recognition that TRADE (ask or bid) must be somehow relative to the quotes (bids or
offers). There are lots of complex tools to analyze this but honestly I think it's pretty simple to just look at the
depth and compare the print. The DOM is too damn complex given the participants and their various motives to
stake your fortune on the numbers that change faster than your platform can even display them. Just a basic
comparison of more, less or about average trade v. bid/offer is sufficient for me. It tells me if depth is being added,
removed or slammed. Unless that relates to someplace on the chart I'm looking for a trade - I could care less.
Keep it simple and keep your scope narrow.

Step 2 for me is the ?trade flow? part. Again, not a common term but that's what they are - trades that have been
struck at the bid or ask - not orders anymore. This breaks down into 3 categories with 3 requirements...

Yes watching How the Resting Orders act in conjunction with Prints is essential , but a DOM can be just fine seeing
that , like if we see rather small*(below average for the time beeing) contract size on the BID lets say 50
and on the OFFER we see 250 and we see that the 50 BID gets Hit several times , but we see that order Refreshing
then we may have evidence of an Iceberg for example... this actually shuld make you vary that someone wants to
hide the buying ... ie. the Market refuses to go OFFER even when it appears to be weak , should raise a redflag .
. and u should think twice before shorting
*depends on current market action (volume traded/ orders coming in and out)
so watching Prints in Conjunction with How the Market reacts to it is essential


OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Requirements:

1. Bid and Ask volume is compared relative to actual market dynamics - this is where I seem to stand alone.
Conventional wisdom (read: applications built by programmers rather than traders) says that the ask volume minus
the bid volume at a price dictates an imbalance in trade. I say blah and when given the opportunity to do a futures.io (formerly BMT)F
webinar in the near future I'll explain this point in detail and willingly accept the hate mail and knock-offs to follow.
I'd rather offer the knowledge than sell a secret.

actually its more important to see the markets reaction on a certain action as on wich side its happening,
If we see Prints going Off heavily and on high frequence on the OFFER but the market refuses to go up

we cant speak of a strong market as implied by the first impression of demand or buying pressure is strong (prints
on OFFER) but the actual result of that frantic buing is zero to none .. .. also where that happens is essential
here...(resistance , swing high , etc..)



OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
2. Comparisons of trade are done only in directional movement. If you look at trade over a series of prices that's
had the opportunity to move back and forth, up and down - over and over... What value could that possibly provide
other than maybe a profiling distribution? I'm not interested in analyzing churn. I need to see a move and process
what is happening in real time.

Yes and no , depends on what type of trader u are , but u can see absorbtion, stuffing and whats happening
in a range aswell ..
does the byuing pressure increase? does supply gets absorbed? do we tick higher ?
do we make higher lows in that progress ?


OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
3. No engagement of volume at a single price will provide actionable feedback. We have to see a sequence of
trade across several prices to even consider an event.

True to that , putting as many odds in your favour as possible , its especially interresting to see how the market
acts if we visit a level of , for example previous buing again.. and watch how it acts now... more buying? no more
buying? etc. .. its a law that comes into play here and thats the law of cause and effect (event)



OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Yikes, that was not so simple... So what is order flow? Its a process of associating actionable events in the market
data with actionable decision points dictated by your trading tactics/strategy/etc. Is it for everyone, no. But is it
complex? Not at all. It's just fluid which many traders hate. Of course many traders aren't really traders...

SO we can say then , that OrderFlow is watching Market Depth and Prints .. and how the two work in Conjunction
to each other ? so actually nothing new here init? .. just a fancy Buzzword Afterall ?


OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Question 2: Why would a trader uses what appears to be complex tools when most of us as we evolve want to
simplify things?

Order flow represents the current data analysis that many are missing in their historical-future dream world. Not
all. And I stress that.

i guess the Software u Developed , is just another tool , wich may be good for people who cant see the above
actions on the DOM .. if it helps people who overwehelmed by watching the DOM , then good..

but actual all this action can be seen by Simple HLC Bars and Volume(activity) Plotted below ..
yes we dont see on wich side the Prints go off .. but its not neccesearly.. what is really important
is what price is doing .. or dont...

PriceAction =
The Result in Price Change after Trades/Transactions are executed

OrderFlow =
What Happens Before PriceAction

Correct ? Right ?

please comment and add or critcic my POV.. TY

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Isn't every software just a tool, a utility that bestows its benefits in varying degrees based on the user?
Sure, bid/ask analysis with an eye on immediate market depth can be accomplished by seasoned DOM traders. Do you mean to claim that you can watch the DOM for a few hours and know exactly when volume clusters ramp up in magnitude, sometimes a precursor to an immediate reversal or continuation, and you do that for multiple instruments simultaneously?? Even if you are blessed with photographic memory, why put oneself through that level of strain undertaking an activity that is stressful enough to begin with. Software, among other things, is supposed to make somethings we already do, easier.
It appears you went to great lengths to agree with most points on DB's explanation only to arrive at your main point that you don't need any software because you are really really great! Orderflow edge is not as it used to be since block orders are a thing of the past. But for scalpers, there is still plenty to exploit. By the way, any volume analysis tool that doesn't live and die by cumulative delta is already a cut above the rest.

P.S. I am not affiliated with DB nor am I a customer.

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FalseProphets View Post
By the way, any volume analysis tool that doesn't live and die by cumulative delta is already a cut above the rest.


Could you possibly expound on this. I'd be interesting in hearing more of your thoughts on this idea.

TIA.

 
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Just meant that its an arbitrary construct and meant to dumb down the study of orderflow to appeal beyond the niche cross section of traders. It can be useful if measured from a significant pivot point or rotation. Just measuring from one edge of the chart to the next has little value.

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DionysusToast View Post
Hi DB

First, let me disclose that I am the owner of Jigsaw trading - not sure if we compete or compliment but I have seen an overview of your products and they look pretty neat.

Based on your experience - what is it that is bringing so many people to Order Flow now? 18 months ago it was "Price Action" everyone was raving about and now Order Flow is very much in vogue. It is certainly being discussed much more on the various forums.

It's almost as if there can't be a 'next' fad because you can't drill down much lower.

Is this an awakening on the behalf of retailers or is it something you think will become less popular as something new comes along?

Your thoughts?

Cheers

Pete

I've been studying Market Internals pretty hard for the past week and I love the results. Just a heads up.

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FalseProphets View Post
Isn't every software just a tool, a utility that bestows its benefits in varying degrees based on the user?
Sure, bid/ask analysis with an eye on immediate market depth can be accomplished by seasoned DOM traders. Do you mean to claim that you can watch the DOM for a few hours and know exactly when volume clusters ramp up in magnitude, sometimes a precursor to an immediate reversal or continuation, and you do that for multiple instruments simultaneously?? Even if you are blessed with photographic memory, why put oneself through that level of strain undertaking an activity that is stressful enough to begin with. Software, among other things, is supposed to make somethings we already do, easier.
It appears you went to great lengths to agree with most points on DB's explanation only to arrive at your main point that you don't need any software because you are really really great! Orderflow edge is not as it used to be since block orders are a thing of the past. But for scalpers, there is still plenty to exploit. By the way, any volume analysis tool that doesn't live and die by cumulative delta is already a cut above the rest.

P.S. I am not affiliated with DB nor am I a customer.


HI FP

it depends on what trader u are and which road/journey u went thru in becoming that trader , to know what style
of trading u suits u and what tools are best used for that purpose...

but how do you know if this or that tool .. is the right choice for you ? if u just start out ?
so why not start at the core ! .. wich is The tape and or the DOM ?

if u see how the markets work in its inner core .. and understand the mechanics behind it ,u then have the chance
to say this or that style suits me.. and for this and that i need this tool ,, or that ..

If u trade on the DOM u can limit your time u dont have to be infront of it for manny hours... how about only 2
at the open ? or the last hour ? .. again what suits u.. best

then u can set some reverence points ( not getting lost) .. like VPOC .. support / resistance daily high/Low.. swing
highs/Lows .. etc.. and watch how price trades torwards and acts at those levels to make a trade decision .. only
for a couple of ticks .. and your done for the day .. etc...

yess it gets stressfull and exhausting if ya dont have a great WorkLife Balance

i dont do it anymore... but that knowledege i gathered while scalping purely on the DOM .. is priceless...
and i dont regeret it...

now i only need HLC Bars and VOL.. thats it..

but to answer your question


On Multiple Instruments ?Hell no !

U wont belive how fast time flys by , if ya "trading in the zone" ie. on peak performance watching the DOM
and i traded only for couple of ticks .. not swing trading... ie. kept me busy

a quick ramp up on a typical DOM session
just focused on buying and selling pressure , path of least resistance.. Levels of interrest .. and thats it...
ie.



Simply observing the DOM , get a feel for the market or get nsync.
Watch what the market wants (path of least resistance)
Selling or buying pressure (wich is dominant)
Watch important levels and how price moves there and how it reacts( ydh,ydc,ydl,s/r,swl,swh,high vol areas low vol areas , recent heavy activity)
Get in , if market reacts in the favour of my position let it run till momentum dries up
Else get out dont be exposed to the market for to long , either take loss or BE
Watch out for games played ! Only trade the obvious !

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Didn't see this question asked unless I missed it but what instruments does OFA work with? Your faq's refer to the website for the answer but I didn't find it anywhere. Thx.

 
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Which data visualization library are you using? Infragistics?

 
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OFA DB,

We hear much talk of needing to follow the large size institutions (despite some obviously losing like the majority), so lets call the winning guys 'smart money' for these questions. Everything relates to the ES market.

Q1. What are the most common footprints in the order flow that smart money leave for us to follow?

Q2. How does your OFA logic method identify these footprints? Can it be done, albeit with much difficulty(?), using standard 'tape reading' tools like the T&S, DOM, and such?

Q3. How do we differentiate between smart money and dumb institutional money at work?

Q4. How do we handle HFT/other big guys action that flips aggressively between bid and offer heavy limit orders being placed and pulled (within seconds often)? Or do we just not trade at this time, despite practice getting very common?

Q5. Have you compiled a list of typical 'games' that smart money plays to take others' money? If so, are these built into your OFA logic? Would you share same games list for others to comment on?

Thanks for your time. Look forward to your Q&A and future webinar.

Richard
Hong Kong

 
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DionysusToast View Post
Hi DB

First, let me disclose that I am the owner of Jigsaw trading - not sure if we compete or compliment but I have seen an overview of your products and they look pretty neat.

Based on your experience - what is it that is bringing so many people to Order Flow now? 18 months ago it was "Price Action" everyone was raving about and now Order Flow is very much in vogue. It is certainly being discussed much more on the various forums.

It's almost as if there can't be a 'next' fad because you can't drill down much lower.

Is this an awakening on the behalf of retailers or is it something you think will become less popular as something new comes along?

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the question - and I consider anyone in the space to be a compliment - not a competitor. I've been doing this for a pretty good while and I do see the interest level growing from the retail side but my assumption is that's just buzz and hype. It takes so much work to really be a trader - and most people getting into trading just aren't willing to accept that fact... So they look for whatever is new and being talked about. On the other hand, we've seen a massive transition from retail to professional interest over the last 12-18 months. They are finding value in the logic when applied to more traditional systematic approaches. That's something the retail guy will always struggle with.

So in short, I'd say for the average new retail trader everything is a fad because most will take 3 stops and quit or buy something else. For the professional trader there's an always expanding toolbox to work with. They only adopt new practices when time tests the value. For many that time is now.

We should talk and see how we can work together to bring more value to the field.

DB

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kronie View Post
1) which vendor provides those 10 depth market levels?

Rithmic provides more depth than most are used to seeing - I'm sure they're not alone in that.


Quoting 
2) on thinly traded instruments relative to the massively high volume (bonds, sp5's and currencies), how well does the approach to OFA really work?, as with thin, so much becomes either stretched out or muted in interpretation or followthrough?

I think every instrument poses it's own unique challenges. I originally developed OFA for the ES only... That was before 07 when the market was trading a little different (anyone remember pre-QE action?) Actually the ES used to trade a lot like the 6E does now. It was ideal for that type of fluidity. I've converted a lot of my trading to the 6E and 6B because of the thick pig the ES has become. I honestly can't speak to bonds as I've never understood the competition there but we do have bond/note traders that love to utilize OFA. Part of that is because the logic we teach - it's pretty simple and follows a constant stream. With 4 individual tools, you may only find 1-2 that you feel can logically be applied to the market you're trading... For example I know that our CL traders see little value in the Stop-Run analysis and rely mostly on cluster sequences (Volume Cluster Analysis) and finding historical momentum points in the print.

I'll PM you and maybe we can talk through it with some examples.

DB

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PrymeTyme View Post
PriceAction =
The Result in Price Change after Trades/Transactions are executed

OrderFlow =
What Happens Before PriceAction

Correct ? Right ?

please comment and add or critcic my POV.. TY

Plotting time and sales on a chart in rows and columns is just that - glorified time and sales - particularly if you have no idea what the data represents or how to use it. Sounds like you do so that's great.

I'm in agreement with you on market depth - I think there is little to be gained for the work that is put into it. Any claimed edge is subtle and should be treated as such.

Price action - check
Order Flow - sort of. I'd say it's what happens in order to result in price action.

Again - it relates back to having a process to make sense of the data and act on it. There are 100 companies that plot glorified time & sales. Most have no strategy for how to use that information.

DB

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FalseProphets View Post
Isn't every software just a tool, a utility that bestows its benefits in varying degrees based on the user?
Sure, bid/ask analysis with an eye on immediate market depth can be accomplished by seasoned DOM traders. Do you mean to claim that you can watch the DOM for a few hours and know exactly when volume clusters ramp up in magnitude, sometimes a precursor to an immediate reversal or continuation, and you do that for multiple instruments simultaneously?? Even if you are blessed with photographic memory, why put oneself through that level of strain undertaking an activity that is stressful enough to begin with. Software, among other things, is supposed to make somethings we already do, easier.
It appears you went to great lengths to agree with most points on DB's explanation only to arrive at your main point that you don't need any software because you are really really great! Orderflow edge is not as it used to be since block orders are a thing of the past. But for scalpers, there is still plenty to exploit. By the way, any volume analysis tool that doesn't live and die by cumulative delta is already a cut above the rest.

P.S. I am not affiliated with DB nor am I a customer.

Thanks FalseProphets. My only objective with the software and training is to allow people who can't make sense of the info to understand and apply it logically. I really cannot stare at time & sales in a window and make sense of it. Nor can I gain much insight from endlessly staring at the DOM. But there is underlying logic that can be applied to start to make sense of it when arranged and explained. As stated earlier, CD doesn't make sense to me logically so that is why I dont use it or recommend it.

DB

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Titan View Post
Didn't see this question asked unless I missed it but what instruments does OFA work with?

Sorry about that. The current version allows the user to input any instrument they want - so technically anything. That said, the original design was for futures, not stocks - so it's generally a disaster if you try to input ETFs or similar. There might be a few limitations on instruments with a non-standard scale. We had to do some modifications for notes and bonds - simply because we never planned to make this available to these markets and didn't plan for it.

OFA has about 20 formatted instruments:
ES/NQ/YM/TF
6E/6B/6J/6C/6F/6A
CL/GC/QM/Corn/Wheat
Dax/Bund/FESX
Bonds & Notes

And a custom symbol input field

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RichardHK View Post
OFA DB,

We hear much talk of needing to follow the large size institutions (despite some obviously losing like the majority), so lets call the winning guys 'smart money' for these questions. Everything relates to the ES market.

Q1. What are the most common footprints in the order flow that smart money leave for us to follow?

Smart money = the guy who didn't get stopped out. If you think that's limited to the institutions (which clearly you don't) then you're nuts. The best thing you can look for are the signs of accumulation or distribution at a concentration of prices (drawing in substantial trade without substantial price action) and the subsequent unwinding of the losing side being unable to find market depth to unwind into. We look for a pretty specific momentum pattern which is instrument specific - but in the ES we would expect to see sequential clusters of trade followed by a thin print in the target range of stops - let's say 8-10 ticks for the sake of simple conversation - and I'm sure some vendor-hater will blast me for that. But the point here is that you should have regular expectations of where losing volume will unwind - and when it's not met by depth trying to take advantage of the inventory, you will see very clear patterns in the print.


Quoting 
Q2. How does your OFA logic method identify these footprints? Can it be done, albeit with much difficulty(?), using standard 'tape reading' tools like the T&S, DOM, and such?

I dont think I'd really be able to identify patterns of volume by reading the time & sales or DOM - which is why I built an application to do it the way I wanted to. There are posts here by others that indicate they know the secret to this magical process. I dont and cant claim that I do.


Quoting 
Q3. How do we differentiate between smart money and dumb institutional money at work?

Start by realizing that your real competition is the retail trader - not the institutions. The retail trader is generally an under capitalized neurotic consumer of magic numbers. Take his money, it's easy.


Quoting 
Q4. How do we handle HFT/other big guys action that flips aggressively between bid and offer heavy limit orders being placed and pulled (within seconds often)? Or do we just not trade at this time, despite practice getting very common?

I posted earlier about order flow really only providing usable feedback when there is directional movement. If I get into a trade with an expectation of momentum higher - and instead we churn across a small series of prices - I generally unwind my position because the expectation has failed to deliver. Imagine, you go long and price moves 4 ticks up and down for 2 hours... Is there directional movement? Will you get accurate feedback from the data? Would you hold that position? For me the answer is no to all 3. I try to limit my "reading of order flow" to specific criteria defined by my tactical approach to the chart that day. I'd lose my mind if all I did was watch volume prints all day. Probably not the answer you are looking for but at some point you have to agree that when a trade is not doing what you expected you need to go back to the drawing board rather than hope for it to work out.


Quoting 
Q5. Have you compiled a list of typical 'games' that smart money plays to take others' money? If so, are these built into your OFA logic? Would you share same games list for others to comment on?

I would say the most common is just a very simple stop-run at ridiculously obvious places on the chart. People like to buy old lows and sell old highs - or buy/sell off trendlines, etc. And typical momentum traders like to bracket the same areas. They get beat up a lot and you can see it happening when you organize the data - but then again, I think a good trader can see this happening with a basic OHLC chart.

Hope that was helpful and gave my critics some good ammo - I hear it's in short supply these days!

DB

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  #35 (permalink)
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artemiso View Post
Which data visualization library are you using? Infragistics?

We are not using any library. We have our own graphics and drawing code.

DB

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  #36 (permalink)
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I never got my 2 posts / questions answered,

scroll up please or pm me on the answers

thanks

 
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  #37 (permalink)
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I have an OFA License that I do not use. I invested $3000 or more, but would like to sell the license. Can I do so?

David

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  #38 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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Sorry I was going to PM you earlier when I replied to the first batch but then the Euro started producing and I forgot about your other post...


kronie View Post
A) do you teach your students to avoid the pitfalls, traps and tell-tales that you teach them to look for?, namely keep your:

A1) stops server side so as not to be spotted, and then only allow or preprogram the software to release the stops, when market is touched? or similar?

Totally depends on the client. We obviously teach them not to have their stops where we expect the bulk of stops to be triggered in directional moves. Outside of that I don't address how a small lot trader should try to hide his stops somewhere in the market depth. They have enough to worry about just managing a position. The stop is the price that invalidates your initial premise for taking the position. It might be modified slightly from the positioning of other nearby trade - but the song remains the same in the end.


Quoting 
A2) using that premise, when the server side orders for stop and targets are managed in that manner namely hidden from the general order book, then how do you account for the change in or increase of bids/asks at the offer?

simply put, actually, there's no way to simply put this concept and question.
if you keep your stops/targets hidden and submit when market is touched, then they show up as recently added, and then contribute to the concept of increased participation (valid conclusion); increased demand (invalid conclusion as these are defensive orders that should have been placed upon order being filled)

Simply put, huh? I don't buy the premise so I don't hide my stops or worry about the things you're asking about. I put on the trade, manage it and then put on another. Maybe this is more relevant in thin markets? It could be I'm just ignorant on the subject.


Quoting 
A3) since most of the conclusions derived from watching the at bid cross price and the orders and the initial verses most recent quantities at that fast moving level, then what can be derived from that analysis, other than sheer interest in market activity?

what can you do with that instant analysis?, place another order to further participate?, pull other existing orders?, confirm that markets are fat?, confirm that markets are thin?

which?

I don't think our conclusions really are derived from the same premise... Order flow or print reading or whatever you want to call it is really not that hard or complex. Like anything it just needs some explanation of what to look for and then practice implementing it with a simple strategy.

Which can be analyzed instantly?
1. place order
2. pull order
3. exit position
4. maintain position
5. add on to position
6. stay flat
7. go play golf / seek medical attention

I'm probably missing a bunch here but isn't that exactly what trading tools are supposed to assist you with? If they don't then throw them away.

We teach traders how to focus on the historical print, the current print and to have realistic expectations about the future based on what evolves in the print (History/Current/Future) all in equal balance when possible. With the historical you can find inflection points or invalidate areas that you'd think would have been important but weren't - and therefore shouldn't be part of your future analysis (note to Mike who hates chart patterns!). You can also learn a lot about what to expect in the future when these events happen. In the current print you can find patterns of momentum or exhaustion (or 2-sided trade) and act on them if they fit into your trading plan.

Will reading the print solve all of your trading woes? Nope. But it's real-time feedback and many of us see the value in that - whether through OFA or any of the numerous other tools that do similar things.

DB

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  #39 (permalink)
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David_R View Post
I have an OFA License that I do not use. I invested $3000 or more, but would like to sell the license. Can I do so?

David

Sure David. Just contact George with the new user's info and he'll transfer it with a small fee - that way the new user is actually in the system and can have access to upgrades, etc. I'd figure all that out before hand so there's no misunderstanding between the parties. Sorry we didn't give you what you needed.

DB

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  #40 (permalink)
Legendary Bought TSLA at 880
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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
We are not using any library. We have our own graphics and drawing code.

DB

Thanks. What I don't like about C# (I'm guessing?) is that the data visualization tools are rather weak. I saw some of the screenshots on your site and would recommend a graphing library. In the long run, $750-1500~/year is cheap compared to the time it takes to work with low-level, probably less performant/visually appealing/stable code. Back offices of .NET shops like GMO, JPM all use some kind of commercial library.

 
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  #41 (permalink)
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artemiso View Post
Thanks. What I don't like about C# (I'm guessing?) is that the data visualization tools are rather weak. I saw some of the screenshots on your site and would recommend a graphing library. In the long run, $750-1500~/year is cheap compared to the time it takes to work with low-level, probably less performant/visually appealing/stable code. Back offices of .NET shops like GMO, JPM all use some kind of commercial library.

I totally agree and I doubt we'll ever continue with .Net in future builds for a variety of reasons. OFA was originally built on a budget specifically for me, not designed to be a commercial tool but to solve a problem I found with the current capacity of existing applications and their lawyers. I never thought it would be a commercial application and never dreamed of dealing with support, requests or trying to explain the logic to other people. Hard to say where I got off track but at some point I started helping people and then realized how insane and unappreciative people can be when you give them your time for free. At some point they want more from you than you can justify and then the vendor-turd moment happens. That's when "how it looks" becomes more important than "how it works" because you have to start listening to the people that pay you. Yep. I know how that sounds.

The sale of my soul to the devil aside, we've taken a different path moving forward... We've learned a lot over the last 5 years with custom integration into professional systems (who are much less dramatic to work with than the average retail trader). We'd like to bring that functionality and customization to the retail side - but it comes with a price. Most retail traders have never walked into the trading rooms of energy companies - they would probably expect a Hollywood set with amazing technology and incredible visualizations. Sad to say you will see a lot of Excel and crappy graphics. Sometimes simple is just better. Less people to call and complain to when things go wrong. With OFA the buck stops with us. We'll solve your problems because you are our customer - even if we have to deal with your 10 other vendors to make it all work. If anyone has ever worked with IQfeed support, you know what I mean. They assume it is their responsibility to fix the problem regardless of the components. We're the same way. Not a support forum and we'll get back to you deal. I personally do remote access sessions and solve problems.

You'll see some interesting new things from us in the coming weeks and even more by year's end. I doubt we'll ever have the sharp retail look that most expect and desire these days - but we will always focus on the data and how to make the most logical sense out of it.

Thanks for the input - it's always appreciated and taken into consideration. If you'd like to discuss ideas or possible directions please don't hesitate to PM me.

DB

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  #42 (permalink)
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My definition of order flow is based on a measure and or analysis of trades at the bid or ask. Wonder if you would be so kind as to comment on my craziness…

I track the aggressor trader, many times the “herd “. This may or may not be the traders who are in control, which is what I refer to as the right side of the market or “smart money”. I want to be on the right side of the market. I categorize trades at the ask as buys and trades at the bid are as sells – simply a way to consistently quantify who’s who - namely who is the aggressor. I read somewhere that it is a market fact limit orders cannot be filled by other limit orders. All limit orders must be filled by a market orders, it’s how the market works. Thus, if a buy limit order is triggered, the aggressor was a seller. To further reinforce this concept, what type market order is filled at the bid? A sell market order is filled at the bid. Also keep in mind that stop orders become market orders when hit.

Watching bid and ask ratios and applying their possible meaning to market context provides an edge. For example, at the bottom of a downward thrust one typically sees an increase in volume or trades. Did the orders occur mostly at the bid or at the ask? How is price responding? Are the aggressive bids being instantly filled or are the sellers met with buyers without pace? Or, is price bobbing up and down, like a bobber while fishing? Did the substantial pickup in bid trades cause price to go down or up? Was price at this location recently and if so how did it react? These informational items are the edge that order flow provides, aiding in my decision making process as a scalper. Then and only then, and after hours and hours and hours, and even more hours, of live chart time does this information provide a “feel” of things. I don’t think it’s complex, just a lot of things to consider in an instant.

It’s also very interesting to see where most of the volume occurs on a bar, such as a 5 tick range bar. Let’s you know where some traders are.. who may or may not be on the right side of the market. I sure do like to “help” those unfortunate soles who find themselves on the wrong side of the market exit their positions.

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  #43 (permalink)
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Hi DB,

I'm sure you have this kind of thing ready but if you don't it would be very useful. Can you post a PPT or PDF with the answers to the following types of questions and general info.

1. Intro to Order Flow Analytics (the theory .. not the company .. yet)
- historical background
- basics of how the analysis is done
- Key useful information that is revealed by OFA

2. How to trade with it
- general ideas and applications of the concepts
- types of decisions that will be supported by OFA data (i.e. when do traders turn to this information .. )

3. Your Company Briefly
- why you think you have been offered a spot on futures.io (formerly BMT)
- your offer to retail traders
- price list
This sort of compact package will help us focus on who you are and what you do - as opposed to anything else.

Following this I'm sure that any requests for webinars can be based on a solid intro. So far I'm afraid that your message is a bit lost on me.

regards

podski

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  #44 (permalink)
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The AMA session is open now:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/362893990

Mike

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I want to thank DB for his time today especially given his family emergency. Due to the emergency he was on a remote computer and unable to share video, but we did get a lot of questions answered by audio.

Attached is the recording of the event. We'll do it again

I also want to remind everyone that Order Flow Analytics has a full blown webinar on futures.io (formerly BMT) on April 4th.

These Ask Me Anything sessions are designed to be quick and casual, capped at 30 minutes and with no formal prepared presentation. The goal is to answer questions from members.

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Attached Files
Register to download File Type: flv ama-ofa.flv (28.54 MB, 375 views)
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  #46 (permalink)
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to what Mike said by noting that anytime a guy says he doesn't know...in DB's case..."doesn't have any idea", that is a guy you need to pay attention to. ESPECIALLY true in a situation where there is a product or idea on the line. This is a person of integrity. What he has to say is now something that I need to hear simply because of the I don't know response. When someone says that, listen to what they do have a degree of certainty on and you will increase your knowledge for sure. DB

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What did everyone think of the AMA session?

If you did not get your question answered in the AMA due to the 30-minute limit, ask it here in the thread.

Mike

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Looking for feedback on our first AMA live session. Over 100 people attended and many downloaded the recording, please take a second and give feedback.

Mike

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  #49 (permalink)
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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Sorry I was going to PM you earlier when I replied to the first batch but then the Euro started producing and I forgot about your other post...



Totally depends on the client. We obviously teach them not to have their stops where we expect the bulk of stops to be triggered in directional moves. Outside of that I don't address how a small lot trader should try to hide his stops somewhere in the market depth. They have enough to worry about just managing a position. The stop is the price that invalidates your initial premise for taking the position. It might be modified slightly from the positioning of other nearby trade - but the song remains the same in the end.



Simply put, huh? I don't buy the premise so I don't hide my stops or worry about the things you're asking about. I put on the trade, manage it and then put on another. Maybe this is more relevant in thin markets? It could be I'm just ignorant on the subject.



I don't think our conclusions really are derived from the same premise... Order flow or print reading or whatever you want to call it is really not that hard or complex. Like anything it just needs some explanation of what to look for and then practice implementing it with a simple strategy.

Which can be analyzed instantly?
1. place order
2. pull order
3. exit position
4. maintain position
5. add on to position
6. stay flat
7. go play golf / seek medical attention

I'm probably missing a bunch here but isn't that exactly what trading tools are supposed to assist you with? If they don't then throw them away.

We teach traders how to focus on the historical print, the current print and to have realistic expectations about the future based on what evolves in the print (History/Current/Future) all in equal balance when possible. With the historical you can find inflection points or invalidate areas that you'd think would have been important but weren't - and therefore shouldn't be part of your future analysis (note to Mike who hates chart patterns!). You can also learn a lot about what to expect in the future when these events happen. In the current print you can find patterns of momentum or exhaustion (or 2-sided trade) and act on them if they fit into your trading plan.

Will reading the print solve all of your trading woes? Nope. But it's real-time feedback and many of us see the value in that - whether through OFA or any of the numerous other tools that do similar things.

DB


thanks for the answers,

its completely acceptable to reject the premise of the question, after all we're using Socratic and Academic Q&A (protocols)

also, thanks for simplifying the answers, so that they clarify the value of your products and teachings...

for those of us familiar or aware of some of the "guts" of these "black box engines" and techniques that they have used to garnish, maintain and then hide their edge, its refreshing to know there still are products, like yours that equip the retail trader to still have "a chance"

in the marketplace.

great answers....

 
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  #50 (permalink)
Saratoga, NY USA
 
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I too have license to transfer to anyone interested.
My REAL life has thrown a curveball and I need to focus on day job
than trade.
Great system and DB + George are great people.
Make it worth anyone's while for the transfer of licensing.

Thank you

Mike Sullivan

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  #51 (permalink)
London, UK
 
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Trading: 6E futures, Cable
 
Posts: 93 since Aug 2012

Feedback on the 30mn run: Given the situation and the fact that it was so short, we didn't learn nothing more than whatbisnbeing posted here IMO. Am sure the proper presentation in April will be more detailed and useful.

To those people selling their licenses: What is your Ask price? There seems to be more supply than demand. Sellers initiating?

 
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  #52 (permalink)
spain + spain
 
 
Posts: 15 since Jun 2012

Hi,

A person I know told me that you cut his license because he is teaching orderflow. He is using graphs of footprint chart, volume profile and cumulative delta. He is not using the software of your company or anything related to it. I want to know why you cut his license? Is that a violation of any agreement of your company? If it's, why? According to this person I know he has not received any explanation. He let me to put here wich was your textually words for cut his license:

"If you would like to become an affiliate of OFA we can discuss this but I am very concerned about your entire approach of being a student/client with us and then "teaching" orderflow as well. It is a very clear violation of our agreement"

I think this is a serious matter and will have some explanation. I want to be clear that because if i want to buy your software and i speak with others about orderflow, you will cut my license,too?

Thank's


 
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  #53 (permalink)
Smolensk, Russia
 
 
Posts: 21 since Jan 2013
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Thanks for a short session, but I think 30 min is not enough for such a topic.
I still would like to understand some of the remarks, for example about 6E and 6B, hopefully will get some info.

 
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  #54 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
Thanks for a short session, but I think 30 min is not enough for such a topic.
I still would like to understand some of the remarks, for example about 6E and 6B, hopefully will get some info.

If you read this thread or watched the recording, you'll notice I explained the difference between the AMA sessions and full webinars a few times.

OFA has a full webinar scheduled for April 4th.

Mike

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  #55 (permalink)
San Jose, Ca
 
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disregard.

David

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  #56 (permalink)
London, UK
 
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What does the conditional order routing does that Ninja doesn't do for example?

Many thanks

 
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  #57 (permalink)
San Pedro Sula
 
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Is this trade tracker is still availiable?


enrique

 
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  #58 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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tulanch View Post
My definition of order flow is based on a measure and or analysis of trades at the bid or ask. Wonder if you would be so kind as to comment on my craziness…

I track the aggressor trader, many times the “herd “. This may or may not be the traders who are in control, which is what I refer to as the right side of the market or “smart money”. I want to be on the right side of the market. I categorize trades at the ask as buys and trades at the bid are as sells – simply a way to consistently quantify who’s who - namely who is the aggressor. I read somewhere that it is a market fact limit orders cannot be filled by other limit orders. All limit orders must be filled by a market orders, it’s how the market works. Thus, if a buy limit order is triggered, the aggressor was a seller. To further reinforce this concept, what type market order is filled at the bid? A sell market order is filled at the bid. Also keep in mind that stop orders become market orders when hit.

Watching bid and ask ratios and applying their possible meaning to market context provides an edge. For example, at the bottom of a downward thrust one typically sees an increase in volume or trades. Did the orders occur mostly at the bid or at the ask? How is price responding? Are the aggressive bids being instantly filled or are the sellers met with buyers without pace? Or, is price bobbing up and down, like a bobber while fishing? Did the substantial pickup in bid trades cause price to go down or up? Was price at this location recently and if so how did it react? These informational items are the edge that order flow provides, aiding in my decision making process as a scalper. Then and only then, and after hours and hours and hours, and even more hours, of live chart time does this information provide a “feel” of things. I don’t think it’s complex, just a lot of things to consider in an instant.

It’s also very interesting to see where most of the volume occurs on a bar, such as a 5 tick range bar. Let’s you know where some traders are.. who may or may not be on the right side of the market. I sure do like to “help” those unfortunate soles who find themselves on the wrong side of the market exit their positions.

I think you're on point here. I would also add that having a plan for where you "expect" things to happen - meaning a place/region you are looking trade is pretty critical in the order flow process. If you're trying to read the print all day to find entries you are probably going to go nuts. No different than waiting for an indicator at random intervals. Do your homework on a couple of instruments each day - find the areas you would want to trade (or trade to), pick your points and wait for the flow to tell you something good.

DB

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  #59 (permalink)
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podski View Post
Hi DB,

I'm sure you have this kind of thing ready but if you don't it would be very useful. Can you post a PPT or PDF with the answers to the following types of questions and general info.

This is a great post and series of questions. Let me discuss with Mike and I'll do it when time allows. Mike did ask me to do a webinar to address most of this so I want to be sure I'm on the same page with him.

And I don't have this kind of thing ready - this is why we do 1-on-1 customer demos instead of mass marketing. I'm new to the forum gig so I guess I better get it together quickly.

Thanks for the detailed questions,

DB

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  #60 (permalink)
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dom64 View Post
Feedback on the 30mn run: Given the situation and the fact that it was so short, we didn't learn nothing more than whatbisnbeing posted here IMO. Am sure the proper presentation in April will be more detailed and useful.

To those people selling their licenses: What is your Ask price? There seems to be more supply than demand. Sellers initiating?

Dom,

Sorry this is late but I don't keep up with the forum daily. As you are now a client - welcome to the family.

DB

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  #61 (permalink)
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tecnitek View Post
Hi,

A person I know told me that you cut his license because he is teaching orderflow. He is using graphs of footprint chart, volume profile and cumulative delta. He is not using the software of your company or anything related to it. I want to know why you cut his license? Is that a violation of any agreement of your company? If it's, why? According to this person I know he has not received any explanation. He let me to put here wich was your textually words for cut his license:

"If you would like to become an affiliate of OFA we can discuss this but I am very concerned about your entire approach of being a student/client with us and then "teaching" orderflow as well. It is a very clear violation of our agreement"

I think this is a serious matter and will have some explanation. I want to be clear that because if i want to buy your software and i speak with others about orderflow, you will cut my license,too?

Thank's


Yes, we are a US-based company doing business around the world and are subject to the laws, liabilities and abuses that come with being in business. Our T&C agreement is standard boilerplate. In the instance you are describing we have the right to terminate a license when someone violates US and Euro-zone trademark and copyright laws. It's very simple - you are not allowed to use our logo on your website to legitimize your position in the industry - basically attempting to use our name to gain customers' confidence - without asking for permission to use the logo.

Only 1 license has ever been terminated and I can't imagine you're going to get much support for your campaign here - most real traders are capitalists at heart and respect the notion that misdirection or bait-and-switch marketing can only result in total implosion. Success requires hard work and integrity.

As technitek is really only looking out for the good of others...

In response to his personal woes and friendly compassion, I've made an offer to give a license of our new unreleased version away for $1 for the greater good of all those who have been abused by the legal system when they have chosen the wrong path in life... Hopefully this will right all the wrongs of the "man" unfairly delivered to the 99% in his pursuit of selfish 1% success and prosperity - but I doubt it.

For those not familiar with this insane situation please see the following post and previous threads:


DB

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  #62 (permalink)
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dom64 View Post
What does the conditional order routing does that Ninja doesn't do for example?

Many thanks

Dom, I think we are set to go over this 1-on-1 this Monday. I didn't want anyone to think I just wasn't going to answer the question so...

Conditional orders in OFA are way to send an order if-and-only-if specific conditions are met. Sounds the same as any strategy right? Not really. The difference is that the user defines the price(s) or price region(s) in which he/she is looking for these order flow conditions. Prices are selected on the fly through the chart so it is a bridge between automated trading and discretionary trading that I am otherwise not aware of.

In short, the user defines "where" to look on the fly instead of a strategy looking for something all the time or in back tested time/event sequences. You're in control but it pulls the trigger for you.

My suggestion would be that this feature is for extremely experienced traders with existing price-based strategies only. We actively discourage novice traders from purchasing it - which is again why we do 1-on-1 demos... We want to help you select what's right, not what's neat looking. A feature with no benefit to you is worthless.

DB

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  #63 (permalink)
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misalto View Post
Is this trade tracker is still availiable?


enrique

Yes, for a very short time. That's not a high-pressure pitch - just reality. We will support but not sell the tracker starting in about mid-April (total estimate - please do not hold me to a date).

This is another product that we do not actively sell to novice traders. There is a qualification process and we have to absolutely prove to you the results before we will sell it to you. My feeling is this product is most beneficial to automated traders or those with long-term experience trading a very well defined discretionary process. If you are all over the place and changing ideas weekly then you should not waste your time or money.

I am unable to say any more about it than what I already have for the time being. Sounds sketchy I know.

Apologies,

DB

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  #64 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
Thanks for a short session, but I think 30 min is not enough for such a topic.
I still would like to understand some of the remarks, for example about 6E and 6B, hopefully will get some info.

I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting for an answer - remarks about the Euro as opposed to the ES... I'll try. The ES used to be an extremely volatile beast prior to QE4EVER. My understanding is that it was used primarily as a hedging vehicle by institutions in order to offset trades in both equities and the larger SP500 futures. There was incredible action almost daily.

Now we have incredibly subsidized equities markets (sorry more heavily subsidized than before). The Bernanke is essentially creating out of thin air a new $2.5B AUM firm - each and every day of the month of March alone... Except instead of a true asset management firm - these are only buying. So you end up with a situation where the relative price is a bit jaded - no different than when gold is at $2000oz but gold mining stocks are trading at values relative to $500/oz in their reserves. It's just something I'm clearly too ignorant to get my head around. "Everyone is buying" and every crappy economic report is "better than expected" but the derivatives are churning.

Now the big claim is that algo trading has ruined the ES but I personally think it has more to do with the arrogance and stupidity of our prized economists and politicians (globally). So am I saying currencies are not manipulated? heck no. I'm not delusional - but they are moving the way a trader-friendly-investor-ugly market should relative to the general insanity we are living in.

When asked where people should be investing now by Bloomberg TV, hedge fund icon Stanley Druckenmiller said this:

"That's hard for me to answer. Because I have the luxury of a lot of experience in sitting in front of a screen. And I can go into currency markets where it's at a relative price. So it's the one area where prices aren't subsidized. And I'm arrogant enough to think I can time these things. But I don't really know how to answer that question for public invest-- but let me just say that this idea that you've got go plowing into risk because rates are zero, that they will rue the day one day. The music will stop. And I would probably be invested right now thinking I'm smart enough to know that we're quite away from the music stopping. I don't think Bernanke is about to end these policies for a while. But let's just know what we're dealing with here." (copied/pasted from Zerohedge.com)

So I'm clearly not on the level of Stanley Druckenmiller - but I am arrogant (previously noted on this forum) and I have a ton of screen time. I like to trade markets that have action - otherwise you're trying to "invest" instead of day-trade without the same rules applying.

Hope this helps,

DB

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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Dom, I think we are set to go over this 1-on-1 this Monday. I didn't want anyone to think I just wasn't going to answer the question so...

Conditional orders in OFA are way to send an order if-and-only-if specific conditions are met. Sounds the same as any strategy right? Not really. The difference is that the user defines the price(s) or price region(s) in which he/she is looking for these order flow conditions. Prices are selected on the fly through the chart so it is a bridge between automated trading and discretionary trading that I am otherwise not aware of.

In short, the user defines "where" to look on the fly instead of a strategy looking for something all the time or in back tested time/event sequences. You're in control but it pulls the trigger for you.

My suggestion would be that this feature is for extremely experienced traders with existing price-based strategies only. We actively discourage novice traders from purchasing it - which is again why we do 1-on-1 demos... We want to help you select what's right, not what's neat looking. A feature with no benefit to you is worthless.

DB

Thanks DB. My question was a bit old and I have had my answer since, but I thought I'd leave it here as useful to anyone interested to understand that side of OFA.

Dom

 
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  #67 (permalink)
Smolensk, Russia
 
 
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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting for an answer - remarks about the Euro as opposed to the ES... I'll try. The ES used to be an extremely volatile beast prior to QE4EVER. My understanding is that it was used primarily as a hedging vehicle by institutions in order to offset trades in both equities and the larger SP500 futures. There was incredible action almost daily.

Now we have incredibly subsidized equities markets (sorry more heavily subsidized than before). The Bernanke is essentially creating out of thin air a new $2.5B AUM firm - each and every day of the month of March alone... Except instead of a true asset management firm - these are only buying. So you end up with a situation where the relative price is a bit jaded - no different than when gold is at $2000oz but gold mining stocks are trading at values relative to $500/oz in their reserves. It's just something I'm clearly too ignorant to get my head around. "Everyone is buying" and every crappy economic report is "better than expected" but the derivatives are churning.

Now the big claim is that algo trading has ruined the ES but I personally think it has more to do with the arrogance and stupidity of our prized economists and politicians (globally). So am I saying currencies are not manipulated? heck no. I'm not delusional - but they are moving the way a trader-friendly-investor-ugly market should relative to the general insanity we are living in.

When asked where people should be investing now by Bloomberg TV, hedge fund icon Stanley Druckenmiller said this:

"That's hard for me to answer. Because I have the luxury of a lot of experience in sitting in front of a screen. And I can go into currency markets where it's at a relative price. So it's the one area where prices aren't subsidized. And I'm arrogant enough to think I can time these things. But I don't really know how to answer that question for public invest-- but let me just say that this idea that you've got go plowing into risk because rates are zero, that they will rue the day one day. The music will stop. And I would probably be invested right now thinking I'm smart enough to know that we're quite away from the music stopping. I don't think Bernanke is about to end these policies for a while. But let's just know what we're dealing with here." (copied/pasted from Zerohedge.com)

So I'm clearly not on the level of Stanley Druckenmiller - but I am arrogant (previously noted on this forum) and I have a ton of screen time. I like to trade markets that have action - otherwise you're trying to "invest" instead of day-trade without the same rules applying.

Hope this helps,

DB

Thanks for your answer.
Why I was asking - I'm still trying to understand what's fuelling the markets like 6E and ES.
If you look at 6E, let's take last 2 days of the week, it seems that the driving force was to take the stops of the majority (that usually always has to lose). On Thursday the price was going up at the start of London, created support area, then it went down to take the stops of those who were long, and after that it shot up again.
On Friday - it started to go up, made a new high (so technical analysis would take it as a bullish sign) but probably taking stops of those who were short and put their stops behind US high (because daily trend is bearish) and then it shot down and it went again to the area just below the recent low, so obviously where the stops were taken again.
So what is fuelling this market - stops or economic data?
I guess the order flow will show you some short term signs, so I guess the start of London will be showing a lot of hitting asks but then- oops! and you are done...

 
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  #68 (permalink)
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Just wanted to add - if stops are fuelling the further move, let's say buyers stops are additional sell orders and the price shall go down further, then considering we have 2 sides of a trade - who is buying these orders? And why?
If these are market makers buying, then they will not want the price to go further down, because they need to make money and sell these orders at a higher level, otherwise it's no sense for them. So I'm wondering...

 
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  #69 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
Just wanted to add - if stops are fuelling the further move, let's say buyers stops are additional sell orders and the price shall go down further, then considering we have 2 sides of a trade - who is buying these orders? And why?
If these are market makers buying, then they will not want the price to go further down, because they need to make money and sell these orders at a higher level, otherwise it's no sense for them. So I'm wondering...

I'm going to claim ignorance again and say I just don't know. Nothing I do is this complex. I was sitting in the webinar today with Suri and really enjoying the overview of chart patterns - even though our execution/process is vividly different. The bottom line is Suri was essentially scanning instruments for opportunities. Maybe the ES was setting up for something and maybe it wasn't... I'm in the same exact boat. I couldn't possibly worry about all the details of the buyer v seller / limit v market / entry v stop all over the chart. I want it to be simple. I'm looking at XXX price for a breakout/breakdown/reversal. I don't care what happens at price YYY or ZZZ unless I'm in a trade already and managing it.

So my suggestion is keep it simple... Use a process like Suri's patterns to spot opportunities - use something like order flow to confirm the opportunity and manage then trade. If you get lost in the minutia of theory you'll generally be there all your life - just my experience of working with traders for 10+ years.

DB

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  #70 (permalink)
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I have core license to transfer to anyone interested.
My REAL life has thrown a curveball and I need to focus on day job
than trade.
Great system and DB + George are great people.
Take advantage of this prior to the April 4th Webinar.

Thank you

Mike Sullivan

 
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  #71 (permalink)
miami fl
 
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"I have core license to transfer to anyone interested.
My REAL life has thrown a curveball and I need to focus on day job
than trade.
Great system and DB + George are great people.
Take advantage of this prior to the April 4th Webinar.

Thank you

Mike Sullivan "


Hi Mike,

How much will you sell your license?
Send reply on this thread.
Thanks,

parisparis.

 
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  #73 (permalink)
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I have a few questions to DB.
You wrote earlier:
"We have a CD tool that we call Inventory Tracking. It allows the user to measure the CD from custom anchor points (maybe the high and low of a developing range) to triangulate the CD relative to the current market prices. It has similar historical functions as well. I give full disclosure to my clients that I do not use this tool because the logic does not make sense to me."
"I calculate what we call the "COT" which is essentially just the Net of the Rotation or counter move. "

I understand CD is bid trades minus ask trades, and COT is buyers minus sellers, but I guess buyer is someone who buys asks, seller sells bids, so isn't it the same or you take it differently?

And do you think that order flow is useful for regular US session for ES when the most of the volume takes place and it is not so useful for European session?

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  #74 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
I have a few questions to DB.
You wrote earlier:
"We have a CD tool that we call Inventory Tracking. It allows the user to measure the CD from custom anchor points (maybe the high and low of a developing range) to triangulate the CD relative to the current market prices. It has similar historical functions as well. I give full disclosure to my clients that I do not use this tool because the logic does not make sense to me."
"I calculate what we call the "COT" which is essentially just the Net of the Rotation or counter move. "

I understand CD is bid trades minus ask trades, and COT is buyers minus sellers, but I guess buyer is someone who buys asks, seller sells bids, so isn't it the same or you take it differently?

And do you think that order flow is useful for regular US session for ES when the most of the volume takes place and it is not so useful for European session?

COT can be calculated in a few ways, but to me at least it is the Delta since a new high or low (but this might not be everyone's definition of it and certainly not the only one).

I can't answer for someone else, but why would order flow be useful for US session and not for European? I use order flow only for European session, and couldn't trade without it. Demand and suply doesn't have any preferred session, and apply at all times even if the more liquid the sessions the better.

Absolutely loving the OFA tool so far, really pleased with it altough as with cars, a good drive won't make you a good driver and one needs to learn and practice.

 
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  #75 (permalink)
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dom64 View Post
COT can be calculated in a few ways, but to me at least it is the Delta since a new high or low (but this might not be everyone's definition of it and certainly not the only one).

I can't answer for someone else, but why would order flow be useful for US session and not for European? I use order flow only for European session, and couldn't trade without it. Demand and suply doesn't have any preferred session, and apply at all times even if the more liquid the sessions the better.

Absolutely loving the OFA tool so far, really pleased with it altough as with cars, a good drive won't make you a good driver and one needs to learn and practice.

Well, European session has little volume in ES, sometimes it just sits within a few points, and I am not sure that Order flow will produce clear signals...

 
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  #76 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
Well, European session has little volume in ES, sometimes it just sits within a few points, and I am not sure that Order flow will produce clear signals...

True, hence why I said I wouldn't want to reply for someone else as I don't trade the ES, and "the more liquid the sessions he better", but still IMO most useful to follow the flow even at lower liquidity times.

 
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  #77 (permalink)
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egormaev View Post
I have a few questions to DB.
You wrote earlier:
"We have a CD tool that we call Inventory Tracking. It allows the user to measure the CD from custom anchor points (maybe the high and low of a developing range) to triangulate the CD relative to the current market prices. It has similar historical functions as well. I give full disclosure to my clients that I do not use this tool because the logic does not make sense to me."
"I calculate what we call the "COT" which is essentially just the Net of the Rotation or counter move. "

I understand CD is bid trades minus ask trades, and COT is buyers minus sellers, but I guess buyer is someone who buys asks, seller sells bids, so isn't it the same or you take it differently?

And do you think that order flow is useful for regular US session for ES when the most of the volume takes place and it is not so useful for European session?

So we are clear... Ask trade minus bid trade would be the proper way to calculate CD. Ask being given a positive connotation and Bid a negative one - implying that those trades were initiated by a buyer (ask) or seller (bid). But again, its logic is limited because there is a buyer and seller for every contract. What we call COT is a very specific range - the rotation - calculated the same way.

I cant imagine there is any reason you would implement OFA in one session and not the other. Order Flow is about directional movement - so if the instrument is moving you can use it. If the instrument (or underlying index/market) is so incredibly subsidized to the point where terrible housing and consumer confidence numbers cant seem to move it to new all time highs - then maybe you should consider instruments that do move.

Needless to say I'm really tired of QE4ever and think Cyprus rumors are awesome. OS+PS≠R Print bumper stickers.

DB

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  #78 (permalink)
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OFA, I thought you were doing a webinar? Don't see you on the schedule anymore.

 
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  #79 (permalink)
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jet9jockey View Post
OFA, I thought you were doing a webinar? Don't see you on the schedule anymore.

DB asked to reschedule the webinar. I posted the notice in the main upcoming webinars thread.

Mike

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  #80 (permalink)
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jet9jockey View Post
OFA, I thought you were doing a webinar? Don't see you on the schedule anymore.

Yes we had to reschedule. I think we're shooting for June but send a pm and I'm happy to schedule 1-on-1 presentations that are a little less formal. I always put a lot of prep work into webinars so the're educational and not just a sales pitch - this one just wasn't ready. I tend to do about 4 per year across all venues and Mike's audience deserves something out of the box. I want to make sure you get it.

DB

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  #81 (permalink)
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A quick note:

DB Vaello from OrderFlowAnalytics will be here Monday June 3rd to demo his software, as part of our special futures.io (formerly BMT) 4-year anniversary. During June we have 16 very special speakers and events planned where we will be giving away around $20,000 worth of prizes.

More info:


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  #82 (permalink)
Smolensk, Russia
 
 
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I am not sure if DB is still monitoring this thread, but I have a question...
The last webinar featured new OFA product - OFA/NT.
And DB was explaining a bit about momentum selling on the example of 6E.
There were 3 or more consequtive strong bids near the bottom of the period, and I think that if it was OFA stand alone product - this period probably could be considered as Responsive buying, meaning buyers were stepping in to stop the move down, rather than Sellers initiating...
DB said that in OFA/NT price is evaluated diagonally (bid/ask), but in a stand alone product - it is evaluated horizontally, does it mean that order flow in the new product is approached differently than in a previous version?
If so, shall the new product complement the old one or one of them is preferential to the other?

 
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  #83 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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egormaev View Post
I am not sure if DB is still monitoring this thread, but I have a question...
The last webinar featured new OFA product - OFA/NT.
And DB was explaining a bit about momentum selling on the example of 6E.
There were 3 or more consequtive strong bids near the bottom of the period, and I think that if it was OFA stand alone product - this period probably could be considered as Responsive buying, meaning buyers were stepping in to stop the move down, rather than Sellers initiating...
DB said that in OFA/NT price is evaluated diagonally (bid/ask), but in a stand alone product - it is evaluated horizontally, does it mean that order flow in the new product is approached differently than in a previous version?
If so, shall the new product complement the old one or one of them is preferential to the other?

Both versions analyze data diagonally - the way it actually flows in the market. They are different products meant for different types of users. The entire focus of OFA/Ninja is to make the print easy to read for people not familiar with order flow. I am unaware of any other order flow application that analyzes volume at the bid/ask respectively (although I expect a few to follow quickly now that it's been explained). As far as I know this niche of the market is only interested in delta calculations. I don't agree with the basic premise of delta calculations - so OFA/Ninja was built to give Ninja users a simple way to read and use the flow in conjunction with their existing analytical tools. Let me put it this way - a typical NT user has A LOT of analytical tools! OFA Legacy will continue to be our flagship product geared towards a different type of client. OFA/Ninja will be our first step at giving the entry-level retail trader access to high-level tools and information. We fully understand that 90% of the hopeful traders out there cannot afford our flagship product or services. Our aim is to solve that problem.

Please note in the webinar that I repeatedly said "to simplify for today's lesson... / let's keep it simple for today..." 3 prints of strength is not some magic number whereby the market will suddenly breakout. There is clearly more to it than that. I was hoping to teach a broader lesson in why you should be paying attention at specific places on a chart instead of looking at the print for triggers everywhere. So just to follow up - OFA/Ninja is not a system. It will not give you magic trades. It is just a tool. You cant become a successful trader by downloading software. Please do not confuse a lesson in a free webinar for the hard work trading requires.

I do want to thank everyone that attended the webinar and the feedback we've received since beginning the soft launch of this product. We will have a big announcement in a few days regarding OFA/Ninja and our Free Friday webinars will begin this week. I hope that we can become a free source of knowledge and technology for all of you to become familiar with Order Flow Analysis.

DB

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  #84 (permalink)
Smolensk, Russia
 
 
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Thanks for the answer.
I didn't expect that the webinar could be taken as a training session, just thought that the chart picture could look different sometimes in your 2 products for the same period...
So I take it that OFA/NT is a retail product and OFA legacy is exclusive.

 
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  #85 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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egormaev View Post
Thanks for the answer.
I didn't expect that the webinar could be taken as a training session, just thought that the chart picture could look different sometimes in your 2 products for the same period...
So I take it that OFA/NT is a retail product and OFA legacy is exclusive.

"Exclusive" would be very misleading. I dont want to make it sound like that - I think everyone is really tired of being excluded from anything. That said the products are different - they will produce different charts - and one is not any "better" than the other - there is no secret inside the software.

The bottom line is that developing within the confines of another platform has limitations and complex issues to overcome - which need to be justified in time/cost development... In addition, because Ninja is a free platform (as well as a paid version) and many of their users depend on a wide range of free and low cost tools to assist them, we want to be sure to provide a cost effective way for people to implement Order Flow with the tools they already have access to. So it's less of a Pro v Novice issue and more of a "what works best for you?" situation. Legacy tends to interest people who want more than just more chart plugins - and that's a much smaller group of traders. Typically more experienced but not necessarily - and certainly not exclusive.

My experience is that most people don't want to learn anything new - they just want software to play with - until it's time to learn or give up. Very similar to a guy buying a new golf club instead of getting a few lessons. That's why there are more golf shops than teaching pros - and more bad golfers than scratch players!

If there's great feedback we will continue to develop more tools for the NT Ecosystem. So far it certainly appears that way - but there is no doubt it is a different client with different needs and expectations. We will do our best to meet them both - but in the end I would caution anyone who thinks buying more software or downloading more freeware will turn them into a great trader. Read, learn, study, ask questions. Sit down with a profitable trader if you can. Take a deep look in the mirror and make sure this is what you want to be. It's hard work.

DB

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  #86 (permalink)
Smolensk, Russia
 
 
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I've seen a similar product - Ricxa.
Is it a competitor or associated one?

 
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  #87 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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Never heard of it. No association with OFA.

DB

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  #88 (permalink)
Zaporozhye
 
 
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Hi DB!
I learned some video and found out that your package has an indicator Delta Speed. Could you please, describe in details what information it brings to trader and on base of which data it is plotted?
Thanks in advance..

 
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  #89 (permalink)
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bisecom View Post
Hi DB!
I learned some video and found out that your package has an indicator Delta Speed. Could you please, describe in details what information it brings to trader and on base of which data it is plotted?
Thanks in advance..

Thanks for the post but I'm not sure you have the right application. As most of you know I am not really a fan of delta calculations. Perhaps you can send me more details via private message and I can verify it is OFA you are referring to.

Best Regards,

DB

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  #90 (permalink)
GG
Houston, TX
 
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If I buy the NinjaTrader with OFA and VCA , does the Conditional Order Routing function come with it? If not how much is it to buy the plugin to go with Ninja Trader?

Thanks.





OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
Dom, I think we are set to go over this 1-on-1 this Monday. I didn't want anyone to think I just wasn't going to answer the question so...

Conditional orders in OFA are way to send an order if-and-only-if specific conditions are met. Sounds the same as any strategy right? Not really. The difference is that the user defines the price(s) or price region(s) in which he/she is looking for these order flow conditions. Prices are selected on the fly through the chart so it is a bridge between automated trading and discretionary trading that I am otherwise not aware of.

In short, the user defines "where" to look on the fly instead of a strategy looking for something all the time or in back tested time/event sequences. You're in control but it pulls the trigger for you.

My suggestion would be that this feature is for extremely experienced traders with existing price-based strategies only. We actively discourage novice traders from purchasing it - which is again why we do 1-on-1 demos... We want to help you select what's right, not what's neat looking. A feature with no benefit to you is worthless.

DB


 
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  #91 (permalink)
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click03 View Post
If I buy the NinjaTrader with OFA and VCA , does the Conditional Order Routing function come with it? If not how much is it to buy the plugin to go with Ninja Trader?

Thanks.

OFA/Ninja does not have conditional order routing. This feature only exists in the legacy product.

Rather than getting stuck on a list of features, just download the free version and see if you realize a benefit. Go from there.

Everyone thinks trading software is going to either make them rich or be a total rip off. If you cant see the benefit in the first 10 minutes of messing with OFA/FREE, there is no feature in another version that's going to blow your mind.

DB

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  #92 (permalink)
GG
Houston, TX
 
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DB, I have purchased enough trading software to know the software doesn't make you rich. You have a product on your website and it is not clear, at least to me, that it doesn't run on the Ninja platform. That is why I asked.

I am willing to buy software that may make my job trading a little easier. I do put in my time studying and have a library of books and articles. I have my trade setups and feel they are good, I have been using other tools for order flow and found yours looks worth a try so I purchased the Ninja Package for the OFA/NInja and VCA/Ninja. I did find your site a little confusing as a lot on there does not work with the NInja/OFA which you explained in an earlier post, thanks.

After purchasing I realized there is not a pdf or video that goes over setup and different settings for the different instruments. I am sure I can figure it out but having a base to go by would be a great help. I am sure others that purchase it would appreciate same, to save time. Let me say that I have not had the opportunity to view the introduction video, in which you may answer all my questions, and if that be so please accept my apology for wasting yours and others time.

Thank you.

 
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  #93 (permalink)
GG
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I just want to say after my previous post, DB has already answered my question. The software does come with pdfs, which went to my documents folder in the zip file. I never even thought about looking there. Thank you very much DB.

I also want to say that is the fastest service I have ever experienced.

Thank you very much.

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  #94 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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click03,

Software aside, the thing we are most known for is our attention to clients needs. We're service-led and we will get you everything you need. I spent a good deal of the morning logging in remotely to assist clients with issues they were having. That's just how we do business - we work for you when you become a client. If you read horror stories about some lack of support coming from OFA I would say that person is not a real client or there is more to the story than what's being posted.

Outside of that, the download should have come with 2 PDFs... Since you posted this, I have already emailed them, replied to you on our forum and offered to assist you directly in setup. That's just who we are.

And yes. The website is disjointed to say the least. When you trade all day and support clients the way we do, the store front sometimes looks a mess. That's my fault entirely.

Let me know what you need and you will have it.

DB

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  #95 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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click03 View Post
I just want to say after my previous post, DB has already answered my question. The software does come with pdfs, which went to my documents folder in the zip file. I never even thought about looking there. Thank you very much DB.

I also want to say that is the fastest service I have ever experienced.

Thank you very much.

It seems we posted at almost exactly the same time. Thanks for the followup post.

DB

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  #96 (permalink)
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Nice to try the OFA software albeit the 'lite' version on Ninja. It's been interesting watching it for the odd half hour here and there. I like the uncluttered layout and simplicity of the design.

You have talked about momentum in a couple of your videos (including the one here). Assuming that you have the context for a trade (e.g. the break down of the M that you used in your examples here). How do you determine that the momentum is real and it is not absorption going on? It's a tricky proposition at the best of times and of course the bid can firm up as quickly as it disapears. Just wondering your thoughts on the matter.

 
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  #97 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX, USA
 
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NickA View Post
Nice to try the OFA software albeit the 'lite' version on Ninja. It's been interesting watching it for the odd half hour here and there. I like the uncluttered layout and simplicity of the design.

You have talked about momentum in a couple of your videos (including the one here). Assuming that you have the context for a trade (e.g. the break down of the M that you used in your examples here). How do you determine that the momentum is real and it is not absorption going on? It's a tricky proposition at the best of times and of course the bid can firm up as quickly as it disapears. Just wondering your thoughts on the matter.

Agreed. Free webinar classes are generally designed to introduce a concept and not meant as an exhaustive resource on the subject. I tend to use phrases like "for our purpose today..." or "Let's use some very simple rules for today's lesson..." This is because without digging deep into Order Flow logic it's pretty difficult to cover all the bases. Very often what I describe as "momentum" in a webinar can actually be an accumulation at the bid or ask instead. At OFA we call this inverse action a "sweep". It has some identifiable characteristics which separate it from a true momentum action - but in the end every study/tool/indicator is only confirmed by price action fulfilling the desired result (more than not).

We have some new tools coming out which greatly assist in allowing the user to define and test momentum, sweeping and exhaustive patterns. Like anything of value, OFA requires guidance, comprehension and practical application (time and experience).

Glad you are enjoying the free version!

DB

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  #98 (permalink)
@ Germany
 
Experience: Beginner
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@OrderFlowAnalytics
I've seen a screenshot of the "Order Flow Trade Manager" which acts as a helper to exit trades. It catches my attention, because i think order flow analysis can move the trailing stops more precise. Because i don't want add another chart to doing that manually, the described tool matches my needs. Where i can find more information about it?

Koepisch

 
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  #99 (permalink)
Penang, Malaysia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Philips Futures/PATS; eSignal
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Posts: 49 since Feb 2012
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Hi DB

Kindly have another data vendor eSignal for historical backfill.
eSignal carry bid ask tick data and covers more derivatives exchanges than iqFeed.

Cheers...eric
 
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  #100 (permalink)
Penang, Malaysia
 
Experience: Intermediate
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OrderFlowAnalytics View Post
As most of you know Kinetick is a private label of another feed designed specifically to interface NinjaTrader. Because of the specific use they do not have a way for external applications to program directly to the feed (no API). Our work around for this is to export the data in real-time from NinjaTrader with a NinjaScript from a tick chart. While not the best possible solution (for many reasons) it does work.

So yes, but there are a whole lot of limitations on what you can do with it.

DB

Hi DB...for the OFA/Ninja using iqFeed..just want to know whether the tick data used to drive the OFA chart comes from the Ninja Tick File itself or from another set of tick data stored by OFA/Ninja. If latter is true, Will it build up over time. User need to know how to delete this if needed..thanks...eric

Cheers...eric

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