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No BS Day Trading www.nobsdaytrading.com


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No BS Day Trading www.nobsdaytrading.com

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  #1 (permalink)
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I decided to start a thread on No BS Day Trading since I mentioned on another thread I am taking the course and have had several PM's asking me how it is going.

A little background - John Grady who owns the site was a former Prop Trader who focused on scalping the Treasuries by watching the Order Flow on the Trading Technologies DOM. I liked his videos and bought his basic course which is essentially an E-Book plus a video. It was totally different than anything I knew about trading having been married to my charts and indicators. Anyway, I liked what I read and decided to sign up for his 2 week webinar (which comes with another week's worth of videos), especially since I found out he was going to be using the Jigsaw DOM (which runs off Ninja) to show us how to trade his style rather than Trading Technologies. Jigsaw is much more newbie friendly, in my opinion.

Anyway, the course started this Monday. Basically he trades live in front of us explaining what he is looking at, including explaining what the order flow is telling us about what the big traders are trying to do and how to take advantage of that. He has several things he looks for to initiate a trade (or exit a trade), like icebergs, fake orders, steps in the profile, etc. What I like about his style of trading is that he tries to get in at a spot where he will know if he is wrong within a couple of ticks - so the stops are really small. He does scalp and is not afraid to get out early if a trade starts to go against him. I have seen him take a couple of 1 tick profits and a couple of 5 tick or more profits. He has had one loss so far this week (I think it was for 1 tick if I remember).

Anyway I like what I am learning so far and I like John as a teacher. He is very patient and explains things well and does not seem to be bothered by newbie type questions (although he does ask that you view his baseline videos before you start the live course).

And yes, I have taken other courses from vendors and for the most part learned something from each of them. But this one is the most unique and valuable by far. Anyway, onward and upward.

Hope this is helpful.

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  #3 (permalink)
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Okay just completed the two week course today. My overall impression of the course is that the information he presents is very valuable, especially if you are interested in scalping. And watching a professional trade his personal account live and talking aloud on what he is thinking is great.

Last week John had a very good week of trading. This week he ended up with a down week but because of his style of trading, he only ended up down a few ticks. In a way this week was even more valuable than the first week for me because I got to watch how he managed trades that went against him. He never took a big loss. And he would still take the next trade although he admitted that he may have hesitated a few times after a loss which is one of my issues too. But this is why it is so much more valuable to watch someone trade his own account live and watch him experience many of the emotions that we all feel when a trade goes against us. But he was always trading under complete control even though he grumbled about it a few times

The only thing I did not like as much this week was that he switched and traded the ES for 2 days and the Eurex for one day. These markets trade differently than the U.S. treasuries and the ES seemed really fast after watching the treasuries - and I used to think the ES was as slow as molasses! As a newcomer to DOM trading, I would have preferred to just focus on one market during the entire two weeks, but that is just me. Others really wanted him to show how to use order flow to trade other markets, even though his expertise is in the treasuries.

Anyway, those are my brief impressions of his course. Hope you find this helpful.

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  #4 (permalink)
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Thanks BeachTrader for sharing your experiences.I have heard good things about No BS Daytrading before...he has been around for quite some time.

Did you see what kind of size he trades ? How many trades does he make per day on average ?

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  #5 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
Thanks BeachTrader for sharing your experiences.I have heard good things about No BS Daytrading before...he has been around for quite some time.

Did you see what kind of size he trades ? How many trades does he make per day on average ?

He cut his size down to 4 contracts when he does the live webinars as he says he gets too quiet when he has his normal size on. I think he normally trades about 20 but don't know for sure.

He averaged about 4 trades per morning.

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  #6 (permalink)
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Curious about this method. Are you using standard ninja dom and T&S? Thank you.

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  #7 (permalink)
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rwj67 View Post
Curious about this method. Are you using standard ninja dom and T&S? Thank you.

No. Using Jigsaw DOM which runs with Ninja.

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  #8 (permalink)
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In one the free available videos, he showed his trading results for the day which were at about 1000 USD.

He did 100 round turns on that day (5 trades ŗ 20 lots) A profit is a profit, obviously, but is this kind of trading doable for the average retail trader with much higher commissions ?

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  #9 (permalink)
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In terms of education, his videos are quite good either way. I have watched a whole 3 weeks of trading, and learnt a lot. Not for everyone though, but good.

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  #10 (permalink)
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BeachTrader, thanks for the thread on NoBSDayTrading. I have been recently looking at their web site and videos. Could you give an update on how it's going with their method? I always like to get an unbiased opinion!

Thanks

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  #11 (permalink)
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I use the stuff I learned from No BS to help with my entries and exits. I tried scalping the Treasuries like John, but I just prefer going for bigger wins. So I don't trade exactly like him but what I learned from him helped me, especially watching a pro trade his live account.

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  #12 (permalink)
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John is a stand up guy. Jigsaw- Peter another stand up guy, together a good partnership.

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I bought his basic course (ebook + a video) and his Intermediate and Advance webinar.

I would say it's worth the money.
His basic course is only less than $40 i think. If after reading you think it suit you than you purchase the webinar.
I was a chart trader before, I don't know about DOM.
His basic course taught me how to interpret those jumping numbers on the DOM.
I haven't make big profit from his sharing but it definitely help me reduce my losses very much.


Happy Trading.

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  #14 (permalink)
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Hi guys, I am thinking of doing johns course, I have been working with the Jigsaw Dom for a couple of weeks and thought I should learn more. How are you finding the stuff you learnt? has it been a help with your trading,
ANdrew

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  #15 (permalink)
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Andrewt View Post
Hi guys, I am thinking of doing johns course, I have been working with the Jigsaw Dom for a couple of weeks and thought I should learn more. How are you finding the stuff you learnt? has it been a help with your trading,
ANdrew

Hi Andrew,

If you mean John's $40 course, go right ahead as you will learn lots. The accompanying video does not use the Jigsaw DOM but you still learn the basics of playing the game very well.

If you mean John's live trading webinar, i would suggest holding off for a few more months until you are more fluent reading the tape/DOM/etc. Go through Jigsaw Pete's free course, his videos, and the member ES course and take your time getting into game. After you are thirsty for real live tutoring, John's live webinar is excellent material and he now uses the Jigsaw DOM which makes things better. However, John does not use the snapshot function, or at least not on last webinar, which I find indispensible.

Hope that helps.

Richard
Hong Kong
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  #16 (permalink)
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TheSeeker View Post
In one the free available videos, he showed his trading results for the day which were at about 1000 USD.

He did 100 round turns on that day (5 trades ŗ 20 lots) A profit is a profit, obviously, but is this kind of trading doable for the average retail trader with much higher commissions ?

does anyone know if this is his normal performance? 100 lots for $1000 profit is not even 1 tick profit per contract if we are talking about ZN/ZB.

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  #17 (permalink)
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jonc View Post
does anyone know if this is his normal performance? 100 lots for $1000 profit is not even 1 tick profit per contract if we are talking about ZN/ZB.

When I bought his cheap course a few years back the most he made was 3-4 ticks he is a hard core scalper/tape reader. And he is trading, I believe, with local rates not retail.

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any comment?

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  #19 (permalink)
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I saw this thread and thought I would add my two cents.

From all my experience trading (10 years) I can unequivocally say that when it comes to creating a semi- stable profit with minimal risk of large drawdown then scalping the DOM is the way to go.

I love trading, and in the past would trade practically everything but there would inherently be large drawdowns in the profit due to unforeseeable fundamental factors. I think people need to remember that trading is about making money, if you are in it for fun and don't care about your P/L then you should start caring.

I recommend (as would most professionals) to get a DOM and stare at it for about two years. Conceptualise what John has discussed in his book (along with the concepts of liquidity, market profile and "value") and then start trading small. Scalping the DOM can be highly profitable if you are willing to put in the time. It takes abolutely no change in knowledge to go from swinging a 1 lot to a ten lot, to a 30 lot. THere is enough liquidity there that you dont even get noticed. Sure 6 ricks on a 1 lot on the ZN is about $100, but on a ten lot is $1k a day, and what about a 30 lot? Start small, think big.

To help you on your path I recommend getting in touch with a Deep Discount Broker. Also limit the number of trades per day (to stop churning of your account) and also have a tight stop limit on each trade. Learn what it means to have a "high probability trade" and to "cut your losses as soon as you know you are wrong." Also, learn about "leaning" and what is required to have both the winners and the losers pushing the market in the same direction.

This is all part of Johns book. This is real scalping and is what the largest futures traders on Earth do. But go with caution...... I never said it was going to be easy..

Happy scalping..

RD.

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  #20 (permalink)
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ReeceD View Post
I saw this thread and thought I would add my two cents.

From all my experience trading (10 years) I can unequivocally say that when it comes to creating a semi- stable profit with minimal risk of large drawdown then scalping the DOM is the way to go.

I love trading, and in the past would trade practically everything but there would inherently be large drawdowns in the profit due to unforeseeable fundamental factors. I think people need to remember that trading is about making money, if you are in it for fun and don't care about your P/L then you should start caring.

I recommend (as would most professionals) to get a DOM and stare at it for about two years. Conceptualise what John has discussed in his book (along with the concepts of liquidity, market profile and "value") and then start trading small. Scalping the DOM can be highly profitable if you are willing to put in the time. It takes abolutely no change in knowledge to go from swinging a 1 lot to a ten lot, to a 30 lot. THere is enough liquidity there that you dont even get noticed. Sure 6 ricks on a 1 lot on the ZN is about $100, but on a ten lot is $1k a day, and what about a 30 lot? Start small, think big.

To help you on your path I recommend getting in touch with a Deep Discount Broker. Also limit the number of trades per day (to stop churning of your account) and also have a tight stop limit on each trade. Learn what it means to have a "high probability trade" and to "cut your losses as soon as you know you are wrong." Also, learn about "leaning" and what is required to have both the winners and the losers pushing the market in the same direction.

This is all part of Johns book. This is real scalping and is what the largest futures traders on Earth do. But go with caution...... I never said it was going to be easy..

Happy scalping..

RD.

Good info, do you know how Jigsaw's DOM compares to free DOMs, like the ones offered by Open E Cry or MarketDelta?

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  #21 (permalink)
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KosherTrader View Post
Good info, do you know how Jigsaw's DOM compares to free DOMs, like the ones offered by Open E Cry or MarketDelta?

I have used a number of free DOMs over the years, also have used CQG Integrated Client and X Trader (not cheap by any means.) At the end of it all I believe that Jigsaw DOM is both the most informative about the current order flow and the most reasonably priced. (I am not affiliated with Peter Davies but we have emailed a bit and he seems like a very genuine guy.) I actually emailed just to tell him how happy I was that I didn't need to pay for X-Trader any more!

The first issue is your data feed. Some feeds have trouble distinguishing between if a market order was processed at bid or at offer so this can really affect your chance of success without you knowing it. I was originally on TT but then came over to the CQG as I believe it to be more true representation of the market condition. The DOM can move fast with all the spoofing of orders (and general market dynamics) so I believe this to be quite important. I know a lot of people who are happy on TT, and I was profitable on it too back in the day so don't take this as gospel.

The main advantage with Jigsaw is that it allows you to store short term data for quick reference. Some of the biggest difficulty with learning to scalp the DOM is based on remembering all the data required- what were the important levels, how many traded there, where they at bid or at offer, how many have traded here now, was it more than before? Stare at a normal DOM long enough and you will get it.... maybe. I got it after about a year on X Trader but found it a steep learning curve. Jigsaw has both reduced my stress while trading, and sharpened my entries and exits. Not to mention it is only a couple of hundred dollars to buy outright, not a grand a month like X Trader.

Another thing with the cheap DOMs is gives the big boys (aka guys who swing 5000 contracts) an easier time with icebergs. If I had to buy 5000 lots of something quickly (at market), I would want to not move the market against myself too quickly. So instead of printing a 5000 lot for everyone to see, I could send 100 sets of 10 lots, and then 100 sets of 20 lots, and then more again. If the liquidity is great enough the price would not move, and all the small players who swing short lines would only see a 10 and a 20 print. But this is a specific case. There are lots of games they play (especially on the pending order position.)

There are more reasons, but these are a few of the biggies...

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  #22 (permalink)
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Posts: 57 since Aug 2013

I was turned off from Jigsaw because it is $399 to buy and then $50 a month if you want to place trades through its DOM. Has anyone had success using Jigsaw tools for analysis and simultaneously using a free DOM to place the actual orders?

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KosherTrader View Post
I was turned off from Jigsaw because it is $399 to buy and then $50 a month if you want to place trades through its DOM. Has anyone had success using Jigsaw tools for analysis and simultaneously using a free DOM to place the actual orders?

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If you have operational questions for Peter Davies you can ask in the Jigsaw AMA thread:



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  #24 (permalink)
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KosherTrader View Post
I was turned off from Jigsaw because it is $399 to buy and then $50 a month if you want to place trades through its DOM. Has anyone had success using Jigsaw tools for analysis and simultaneously using a free DOM to place the actual orders?


Yes I do this. It takes a little practice to continue to keep the prices level on both DOMs but it can be done. You don't want to enter an order at the wrong price.

It is always a good thing to keep your costs down. I can not comment on live trading through Jigsaw. Better use the Jigsaw thread as Big Mike says for any further discussion.

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  #25 (permalink)
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ReeceD View Post
Yes I do this. It takes a little practice to continue to keep the prices level on both DOMs but it can be done. You don't want to enter an order at the wrong price.

It is always a good thing to keep your costs down. I can not comment on live trading through Jigsaw. Better use the Jigsaw thread as Big Mike says for any further discussion.


Out of interest, if you used to pay for a TT licence ($500-700 pcm minimum), why not pay the $50 per month to trade through Jigsaw? The trouble of having 2 DOMs up for each market you trade seems quite a cumbersome approach just to save $50 pcm.

Of course it's a good job to keep price down, but were talking $50 pcm. That's $2.5 per day. If $2.5 per day is a significant cost saving to a business, one needs to consider the viability of that business - unless you are trading in sim, and dont yet have a business (which is fine of course). However I doubt you are trading in sim still after 10 years???

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  #26 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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TheDude View Post
Out of interest, if you used to pay for a TT licence ($500-700 pcm minimum), why not pay the $50 per month to trade through Jigsaw? The trouble of having 2 DOMs up for each market you trade seems quite a cumbersome approach just to save $50 pcm.

Of course it's a good job to keep price down, but were talking $50 pcm. That's $2.5 per day. If $2.5 per day is a significant cost saving to a business, one needs to consider the viability of that business - unless you are trading in sim, and dont yet have a business (which is fine of course). However I doubt you are trading in sim still after 10 years???

I don't think the problem is the $50. it wouldn't matter if it's 5 cents or $500. the problem is why?

I don't know about all the brokers, but with mirus and amp your tt licence is already build in your commission. so why should I pay twice for it? or look at the free market delta trader, no tt nonsense there either. but I agree trading with 2 doms sounds rather cumbersome. so for me, a monthly fee is not justified. even if it's only $50.

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  #27 (permalink)
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Silvester17 View Post
I don't think the problem is the $50. it wouldn't matter if it's 5 cents or $500. the problem is why?

I don't know about all the brokers, but with mirus and amp your tt licence is already build in your commission. so why should I pay twice for it? or look at the free market delta trader, no tt nonsense there either. but I agree trading with 2 doms sounds rather cumbersome. so for me, a monthly fee is not justified. even if it's only $50.



Basically it is trying to keep my costs down as low as possible. What felt "right" for me was no ongoing costs, and my feed cost added as a small free on top of my commission. I know fifty dollars is not a lot, but at the end of the financial year if someone walked up to asked for $600 I would want to know if it was necessary.

There are heaps of options to cut costs. Fin-Alg and Gomi indocators are other great ways of cutting the trailing costs of programs, or alternatively you can just pay higher commissions and use the programs for free. Its all about personal preference.

A few years ago I scalped a lot more than I do now and X Trader and CQG IC were given to me for no charge as part of the team I was involved with. When I decided to change positions this was no longer the case, and I began searching around for different options to fill the void as X Trader feels very expensive when you are not on the screens full time. With no ongoing costs at NT and Jigsaw I don't feel like I am paying any poinitless charges.

I scalp solely for a little fun money as it is my passion. I have the career position I have now because ts all about managing risk in global sense. (I have a lady who is accustomed to a certain way of life.) Scalping for a living can be very up and down.

P.S. On another note I think its all about picking your trades. I am looking to "plunge" on a sizable short position when the S&P500 eventually corrects itself. Bernanke and his artificial S&P bubble. I am just waiting to go short on the ES in the following 12 months and ride the fall. Imagine a 5 lot position for an 800 point fall to post GFC levels. If I am wrong I will bow out 100 points in the wrong. It will be something to tell the children about. Puts scalping a few ticks each day in perrspective.

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  #28 (permalink)
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ReeceD View Post
X Trader and CQG IC were given to me for no charge as part of the team I was involved with.

hmmm, Propex?

Interesting that John Grady has also switched from X-Trader to Jigsaw as well.

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jonc View Post
does anyone know if this is his normal performance? 100 lots for $1000 profit is not even 1 tick profit per contract if we are talking about ZN/ZB.

For a professional trader this is not unusual, at least for floor traders. I averaged about $5/contract in 16 years on floor, mostly in the CBOT Five Year Note pit. The key was trading thousands of contracts per day. Obviously, the more you trade, the lower your commissions/contract are.

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hmmm, Propex?

Interesting that John Grady has also switched from X-Trader to Jigsaw as well.


Yeah, Jigsaw is great. It just has too much information not to use it.

Years ago I was involved with Propex for a bit. Unfortunately the whole profit share thing isn't for me. Guy Bower is a smart and really helpful guy. This led me to get X-Trader myself and really develop myself as a scalper (huge amount of screen time) while continuing in my original career. The platform cost a bit, but well worth it looking back now. I made my money back gradually on the screens, but there where ups and downs as with everything..

This is probably why I am so in support of Jigsaw. It opens this whole experience to new people (whether demo or live) for a fraction of the cost. I said to Peter Davies that I expect Jigsaw or a similar product to be the new standard DOM in a few years.


What, no-one is going to agree that the S&P500 is overpriced? Maybe I will have to take my contrarian trading picks to another thread...

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ReeceD View Post
. Also limit the number of trades per day (to stop churning of your account)

RD.

Good advice, and you might be interested why this is true. Researchers in psychology have identified a phenomenon they call "decision fatigue". It turns out that over the course of a day decision making gets worse the more decisions a person makes. Having a meal can temporarily reverse this phenomenon. There's a wikipedia article about this.

I didn't know about decision fatigue when I decided to start shooting for an easily attainable goal in the 5 Year Note pit at the CBOT, I just knew that I tended to make good money early in the day and give most of it back later. I found that when I shot for an easily attainable goal and then went home, I focused better, chose lower risk situations to trade, didn't get greedy nearly so much, and in general traded with much less emotion. After three years of inconsistent results before I started doing this, I went 6 1/2 years without a losing month.

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jstnbrg View Post
Good advice, and you might be interested why this is true. Researchers in psychology have identified a phenomenon they call "decision fatigue". It turns out that over the course of a day decision making gets worse the more decisions a person makes. Having a meal can temporarily reverse this phenomenon. There's a wikipedia article about this.

I didn't know about decision fatigue when I decided to start shooting for an easily attainable goal in the 5 Year Note pit at the CBOT, I just knew that I tended to make good money early in the day and give most of it back later. I found that when I shot for an easily attainable goal and then went home, I focused better, chose lower risk situations to trade, didn't get greedy nearly so much, and in general traded with much less emotion. After three years of inconsistent results before I started doing this, I went 6 1/2 years without a losing month.


Not a losing month in 6 1/2 years is a great run. Was it just the 5 year note? What sort of momentum/ order flow setups were you looking for?

Anything you could add to my comments after all your years in the pit?

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Guys, this thread is solely for reviewing the vendor "no bs day trading".

All other discussion is off topic and belongs in other threads.

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Guys, this thread is solely for reviewing the vendor "no bs day trading".

All other discussion is off topic and belongs in other threads.

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Sorry Mike, I will PM him.

In summary (in my opinion):

No BS Day Trading + DOM + 2 years screen time = profit.

It is a really inciteful book if you put in the time to understand it. Best scalping book I have ever read.

Good luck everybody.

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I have been making posts assuming that everyone has read the book. I think my comments would make a lot more sense if you understand whatís in No BS Day Trading.

I saw the value in this and so appreciative of Johns work that I have taken time out of my day to tell all of you. Once you understand these core trading concepts of the book, all other forms of order flow/ volume analysis become very clear and quite simplistic (eg. market footprint, market profile etc.)

Below is a summary:

Good core information: Choosing the Right Product, Commissions, Computer and Software, Position Size, Trading Economic Numbers, Exits.

There is some really good information here which explains good and bad products, reducing trading costs to an absolute minimum, what items are required to trade, and general times of trading.

The other part is Low Risk Entry Strategies- This is the most important part of the book. It explains concepts such as least resistance, accumulation, reversals, faking orders, pulling orders, stacking the book, manipulation of depth and other integral concepts of scalping. It details about 7 or 8 basic setups in order to basically decipher where the big money probably is and what prices many people may be leaning on. There is no mention of charts, this is pure DOM scalping.

It is by no means a mechanical system and applies mainly to the treasuries, but the concepts can be applied to other products if you conceptualize what is explained. You need to put these ideas to start thinking that scalping is no more than jumping on short term momentum and riding it until it stops. Markets move hardest in the direction that causes most pain, because this is where smart money is pushing it hard, and scared money is running. (Read the book and you will get this part.)

You need to put these ideas along with about 300-400 hours of screen time and you will be a great scalper. If you arenít willing to put in the time, then donít bother buying the book as you obviously arenít serious about making money. The ideas seem quite counter-intuitive on first glance, as most people are of the belief that technical analysis and fundamental analysis move the market. Sure some people take a position based on this, but it is a big time trader in a Chicago hedge fund who can swing 7000 contracts who will decide if that intra-day support holds. And start reading the DOM and utilizing these concepts and you will see that he shows his hand and you can profit by it.

The final comment is that now John Grady uses Jigsaw platform and he mentions it in some of his videos.

Ok, I am off to another thread to talk more about volume/ order flow analysis.

RD.

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What, no-one is going to agree that the S&P500 is overpriced? Maybe I will have to take my contrarian trading picks to another thread...

Compared to what?

Overpriced is a relative term.

Follow the path of least resistance! Where else are we supposed to put our money? With yields below inflation, this market can only go one way - as dumb and irrational as it may seem. JMO

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Compared to what?

Overpriced is a relative term.

Follow the path of least resistance! Where else are we supposed to put our money? With yields below inflation, this market can only go one way - as dumb and irrational as it may seem. JMO

That is a fair call. For the short to medium term the outlook seems bullish as there is least resistance. I actually just had a conversation about it to a friend and we both agreed that it heavily favored the upside.

I guess I am just waiting for my next 'Livermore' moment. I might have to wait 0.5-2 years to get to ride this next bear market. But when it happens, I think the writing will be on the wall. Just like last time.

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i was an attende to the live 10days webinar , and i was disspointed, because a big gap between , the books/basic/advanced/and previous webinars, and the things i watched live.
very different, almost not a single trade like the courses
a lot of hesitation to took the trades, on/off/on/off
a lot of looser
a lot of win to let a looser
probably was my expectations to watch a real long-consistency-winner trader, but i could n see the edge, also accordin the the trading inthe zone, the probabilistic approach, and the this trade has more than 50% of winning, and a lot to guess the future.
any other assistance there?

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ReeceD View Post
I have been making posts assuming that everyone has read the book. I think my comments would make a lot more sense if you understand whatís in No BS Day Trading.

I saw the value in this and so appreciative of Johns work that I have taken time out of my day to tell all of you. Once you understand these core trading concepts of the book, all other forms of order flow/ volume analysis become very clear and quite simplistic (eg. market footprint, market profile etc.)

Below is a summary:

Good core information: Choosing the Right Product, Commissions, Computer and Software, Position Size, Trading Economic Numbers, Exits.

There is some really good information here which explains good and bad products, reducing trading costs to an absolute minimum, what items are required to trade, and general times of trading.

The other part is Low Risk Entry Strategies- This is the most important part of the book. It explains concepts such as least resistance, accumulation, reversals, faking orders, pulling orders, stacking the book, manipulation of depth and other integral concepts of scalping. It details about 7 or 8 basic setups in order to basically decipher where the big money probably is and what prices many people may be leaning on. There is no mention of charts, this is pure DOM scalping.

It is by no means a mechanical system and applies mainly to the treasuries, but the concepts can be applied to other products if you conceptualize what is explained. You need to put these ideas to start thinking that scalping is no more than jumping on short term momentum and riding it until it stops. Markets move hardest in the direction that causes most pain, because this is where smart money is pushing it hard, and scared money is running. (Read the book and you will get this part.)

You need to put these ideas along with about 300-400 hours of screen time and you will be a great scalper. If you arenít willing to put in the time, then donít bother buying the book as you obviously arenít serious about making money. The ideas seem quite counter-intuitive on first glance, as most people are of the belief that technical analysis and fundamental analysis move the market. Sure some people take a position based on this, but it is a big time trader in a Chicago hedge fund who can swing 7000 contracts who will decide if that intra-day support holds. And start reading the DOM and utilizing these concepts and you will see that he shows his hand and you can profit by it.

The final comment is that now John Grady uses Jigsaw platform and he mentions it in some of his videos.

Ok, I am off to another thread to talk more about volume/ order flow analysis.

RD.

I read that you say "that scalping is no more than jumping on short term momentum and riding it until it stops", but for the experience to hear and watch in the webinar live of nobsdt oct 2013, it looks to me that he is saying exactly that it is
short term momentum and riding it until it stops
dont you think so?

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alejo View Post
a lot of win to let a looser


Could you clarify the above the statement.

I've been thinking of getting the basic book but now your post has me thinking that maybe the book is outdated and maybe he was still learning/honing his method when he wrote the book. Would you still recommend the book?

Thanks

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Sazon View Post
Could you clarify the above the statement.

I've been thinking of getting the basic book but now your post has me thinking that maybe the book is outdated and maybe he was still learning/honing his method when he wrote the book. Would you still recommend the book?

Thanks

Sazon,
I purchased the John's course back in July 2010.

I only read through about halfway, and flicked through the rest. The ebook has great information on why futures, in particular why he trades the instruments that he does, and also why not other instruments. He goes over what kind of computer setup is good, talks about commissions, and the last section of the ebook is on trading setups.

The ebook and video (1hr long) are inexpensive and will provide an insight to for you to determine whether trading is for you IMO.

I am returning back to John's teachings after mild and minimal success with trading spot forex. This is due to initially not taking his teachings seriously. But I'm starting to see the value and wisdom of his words.

The intermediate course will provide you with enough info to keep your self busy for at least 1 year, if you go through if properly and take what he says seriously.

I even sent him a personal email asking for his advice on what to do as a young person starting out in life and in trading, and his advice really resonated with me, and as it was spoken from an honest perspective

I hope this helps you in your decision whether to purchase the course or not.








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alejo View Post
I read that you say "that scalping is no more than jumping on short term momentum and riding it until it stops", but for the experience to hear and watch in the webinar live of nobsdt oct 2013, it looks to me that he is saying exactly that it is
short term momentum and riding it until it stops
dont you think so?


You may be mis-interpreting my statement. I am agreeing with John.

I am saying that scalping is exactly jumping on short term monetum.

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Sazon View Post
Could you clarify the above the statement.

I've been thinking of getting the basic book but now your post has me thinking that maybe the book is outdated and maybe he was still learning/honing his method when he wrote the book. Would you still recommend the book?

Thanks

a lot of winners to let them become into a losers

everybody say, and john also ,that ity is a crime to let it become a winner into a loser , but , i saw to him let it go down several times, i could believe it, but ,probably was my high expectation to watch a real trader, but i see the sames things that happens to me.

also he says"... i can t believe this stupid sizes of buying!!.. (refering to 6000/7000 contracts at one price)
or i have never see samething like this ,never...it is my firs t time, surprising about a movement

he was unable to catch a couple of ticks from several swings up and down, up and down

he miss fades and break out, almost constantly

he put the trade and instantly start to blame about it, also , showing their angry with the market???

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Thanks to all for your replies. This has helped me with my decision :-)

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alejo View Post
a lot of winners to let them become into a losers

everybody say, and john also ,that ity is a crime to let it become a winner into a loser , but , i saw to him let it go down several times, i could believe it, but ,probably was my high expectation to watch a real trader, but i see the sames things that happens to me.

also he says"... i can t believe this stupid sizes of buying!!.. (refering to 6000/7000 contracts at one price)
or i have never see samething like this ,never...it is my firs t time, surprising about a movement

he was unable to catch a couple of ticks from several swings up and down, up and down

he miss fades and break out, almost constantly

he put the trade and instantly start to blame about it, also , showing their angry with the market???

I reckon John is likely going through a rough time with these markets lately. The difference between him and 90% of other traders is that likely he'll be around to fight again when the volume comes back and his plays work again.

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xiaosi View Post
I reckon John is likely going through a rough time with these markets lately. The difference between him and 90% of other traders is that likely he'll be around to fight again when the volume comes back and his plays work again.

xiosi, you have notice the big difference between to watch the post/hindsight edited videos and the same session live?
the videos looks usefull and he shows a lot of things and setups, but live , live is other thing..very different
It is the same to us, hindsight vs unfold on line

i expect that i can watch him trading as unfold the market and doing that he shows on the book webinar videos, but his struggle is not a big difference than anyone can do

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gloricle View Post
Sazon,
I purchased the John's course back in July 2010.

I only read through about halfway, and flicked through the rest. The ebook has great information on why futures, in particular why he trades the instruments that he does, and also why not other instruments. He goes over what kind of computer setup is good, talks about commissions, and the last section of the ebook is on trading setups.

The ebook and video (1hr long) are inexpensive and will provide an insight to for you to determine whether trading is for you IMO.

I am returning back to John's teachings after mild and minimal success with trading spot forex. This is due to initially not taking his teachings seriously. But I'm starting to see the value and wisdom of his words.

The intermediate course will provide you with enough info to keep your self busy for at least 1 year, if you go through if properly and take what he says seriously.

I even sent him a personal email asking for his advice on what to do as a young person starting out in life and in trading, and his advice really resonated with me, and as it was spoken from an honest perspective

I hope this helps you in your decision whether to purchase the course or not.








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Hi Gloricle,

Would you be able to share what advice John shared with you about being young and starting out in life and in trading? If not then no worries, I understand.

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evanbro,

basically he said learning to trade is very difficult and suggested I become a doctor, engineer or scientist.

"It will take time but the payoff will probably be better financially and mentally and it might take less time than learning how to trade profitably." <-- his words.


Then he gave me 5 tips if I wasn't willing to do the whole study, work and normal life thing.

1) Get a job first (I was a student at the time I sent the email and I mentioned this.)
2) Be prepared for a long journey...
3) don't do spot forex (metatrader spread betting)!!! DO NOT!!

and in his words (copy pasted from gmail):
"4) Paper trading doesn't cut it so if you decide to make a run at it, open an account and trade a one lot. It's the fastest and most realistic way to learn. You can watch the platforms for awhile and my material will help point you in the right direction but there's no substitute for real experience.

5 - Whatever money you trade has to be pure risk capital. You have to be fearless when in a trade. Not stupid. Fearless. Which means you can't make trading decisions based on the P&L."


hope this helps!

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gloricle View Post
evanbro,

basically he said learning to trade is very difficult and suggested I become a doctor, engineer or scientist.

"It will take time but the payoff will probably be better financially and mentally and it might take less time than learning how to trade profitably." <-- his words.


Then he gave me 5 tips if I wasn't willing to do the whole study, work and normal life thing.

1) Get a job first (I was a student at the time I sent the email and I mentioned this.)
2) Be prepared for a long journey...
3) don't do spot forex (metatrader spread betting)!!! DO NOT!!

and in his words (copy pasted from gmail):
"4) Paper trading doesn't cut it so if you decide to make a run at it, open an account and trade a one lot. It's the fastest and most realistic way to learn. You can watch the platforms for awhile and my material will help point you in the right direction but there's no substitute for real experience.

5 - Whatever money you trade has to be pure risk capital. You have to be fearless when in a trade. Not stupid. Fearless. Which means you can't make trading decisions based on the P&L."


hope this helps!

Who said this? Sounds like one of my emails.

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Mike, this was the advice which was given to me, when I emailed John Grady, the author of No BS day trading.


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yesterday was an extra day for the people who have done the webinar oct
the motivation for that 2 extra day was that that webinar was the worst result of his life
he planed for the tuesday because the news 830 rate unemplyment
but was more the same thing,
he couldn t show what is he looking for , also he made trades, losers, also he know doesn to work but hold, hoping,
and one thing important: he does not use stops, he says that in 16 yrs of trading he have not bad surprises.
but yesterady he says i almost forgot the news of 10.00
he try to express the bias , and inmediatly change, also again blame again the stupid amount or big size of each price.
hesitate to enter, it is not clear when he decide to do it, (the opposite that in the courses and in hindsight)an almost the most go against him ans start to complain, with several frases
are there anybody to share this

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Alejo, has John Grady been trading for 16 years and only had two big losing days? That's pretty good isn't it? You seem disappointed with the course. Is it because you can't replicate the method or because John is inconsistent in his method?

Thanks!
Joe

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The intermediate course will provide you with enough info to keep your self busy for at least 1 year, if you go through if properly and take what he says seriously.

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Just went through my paypal receipt for when I bought his course. Looks like I purchased just the basic course. Sorry if I misled anyone.

I was typing on my phone, so I was concentrating on hitting the correct letters, guess I can't think about two things at once lol!



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yesterday was an extra day for the people who have done the webinar oct
the motivation for that 2 extra day was that that webinar was the worst result of his life
he planed for the tuesday because the news 830 rate unemplyment
but was more the same thing,
he couldn t show what is he looking for , also he made trades, losers, also he know doesn to work but hold, hoping,
and one thing important: he does not use stops, he says that in 16 yrs of trading he have not bad surprises.
but yesterady he says i almost forgot the news of 10.00
he try to express the bias , and inmediatly change, also again blame again the stupid amount or big size of each price.
hesitate to enter, it is not clear when he decide to do it, (the opposite that in the courses and in hindsight)an almost the most go against him ans start to complain, with several frases
are there anybody to share this

If you're looking for a list of rules to follow, I suggest you take up cookery and buy a recipe book.

This style of trading is pretty intuitive. No 2 trades are ever the same. The market is never the same twice.

I think anyone would have trouble explaining exactly what they are looking for when trying to trade. Especially under the pressure of a load of people watching you. Your ego is on the line. Bad idea in my book.

EG, Sometimes I've entered trades almost unconsciously. I've been waiting for a level, and something to happen there, then all of a sudden I see Ive got a position on. Its like a reflex. I couldnt explain it to anyone what I saw or why. It just happens. Sometimes its the other way.


I think ANYONE looking for SOMEONE ELSE to show them how to trade is barking up the wrong tree. Get someone to show you the basics - read a scalping book or whatever, but the real work has to come from you. You need to make it your own.

Be grateful that people like John and FT71 are spending their time, for little money to show you the basics. But youve GOT to make it your own. You cant copy them. If they screw up, so what? What difference does that make to your trading?

I guess you're pissed cos you spent a bunch of money on his seminar and dont have the confidence to trade this way after seeing him lose a few ticks. Maybe you were hoping youd watch it, get the gig, and crush it over the following weeks? Bad trade.

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  #55 (permalink)
madrid spain
 
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bluecrow View Post
Alejo, has John Grady been trading for 16 years and only had two big losing days? That's pretty good isn't it? You seem disappointed with the course. Is it because you can't replicate the method or because John is inconsistent in his method?

Thanks!
Joe

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i did not know that about 2 days loss
we watch them 12 days and more lossing days
i am disappointed because i was expecting to see a profesional trader trading with a profesional execution , and learn about the process, the thougt process , and i see hesitation, doubt, blames, also yesteraday, the last days, he said, today is the example of what not to do?
i think that everybody of us can upload a video or hundredes of videos of what not to do.
i am paying for watch what to do.

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  #56 (permalink)
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TheDude View Post
If you're looking for a list of rules to follow, I suggest you take up cookery and buy a recipe book.

This style of trading is pretty intuitive. No 2 trades are ever the same. The market is never the same twice.

I think anyone would have trouble explaining exactly what they are looking for when trying to trade. Especially under the pressure of a load of people watching you. Your ego is on the line. Bad idea in my book.

EG, Sometimes I've entered trades almost unconsciously. I've been waiting for a level, and something to happen there, then all of a sudden I see Ive got a position on. Its like a reflex. I couldnt explain it to anyone what I saw or why. It just happens. Sometimes its the other way.


I think ANYONE looking for SOMEONE ELSE to show them how to trade is barking up the wrong tree. Get someone to show you the basics - read a scalping book or whatever, but the real work has to come from you. You need to make it your own.

Be grateful that people like John and FT71 are spending their time, for little money to show you the basics. But youve GOT to make it your own. You cant copy them. If they screw up, so what? What difference does that make to your trading?

I guess you're pissed cos you spent a bunch of money on his seminar and dont have the confidence to trade this way after seeing him lose a few ticks. Maybe you were hoping youd watch it, get the gig, and crush it over the following weeks? Bad trade.

I agree with you that it is my work, i am doing my work, everyday but i think it is intresting to watch live pro traders with real money to show the way or give an indication of the way

i am an amateur golfer, when i go to watch a pro golf , i go to see how he does, my motivation, is learning , watching how manage the shots, how he reaction under differents scenes, i know that scenes, i and know how i have struggle.

Then if you see the pro, given 4 shots to take out the ball from a bunker, o saying , this bloody course is a problem , i finally he got 110 shots, you fell that something is wrong

yesterday john sais"today is an example that all of you do not to do"

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  #57 (permalink)
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TheDude View Post
... Be grateful that people like John and FT71 are spending their time, for little money to show you the basics...

@TheDude,

I don't think USD1K is "little money"..

I would certainly be as disappointed as alejo if I had paid to see such poor trading. Grateful?? You must be joking.

No one expects perfect trades but the least an educator/instructor should demonstrate how to cope professionally with losses. This is the real value.
Anyone can trade badly and no one would wanna pay to see such trading.

Your comment is VERY unfair to alejo..

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  #58 (permalink)
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fourtiwinks View Post
@TheDude,

I don't think USD1K is "little money"..

I would certainly be as disappointed as alejo if I had paid to see such poor trading. Grateful?? You must be joking.

No one expects perfect trades but the least an educator/instructor should demonstrate how to cope professionally with losses. This is the real value.
Anyone can trade badly and no one would wanna pay to see such trading.

Your comment is VERY unfair to alejo..

You ever had a bad day?

or a bad few days?

Can anyone teach anyone 'how to cope'? We can give suggestions, but putting into practise is down to the individual.

I understand your point about $1k, but you can lose way more than that in the market if you're not careful.

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  #59 (permalink)
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alejo View Post
I agree with you that it is my work, i am doing my work, everyday but i think it is intresting to watch live pro traders with real money to show the way or give an indication of the way

i am an amateur golfer, when i go to watch a pro golf , i go to see how he does, my motivation, is learning , watching how manage the shots, how he reaction under differents scenes, i know that scenes, i and know how i have struggle.

Then if you see the pro, given 4 shots to take out the ball from a bunker, o saying , this bloody course is a problem , i finally he got 110 shots, you fell that something is wrong

yesterday john sais"today is an example that all of you do not to do"

Maybe thats why he threw in the extra couple of days?

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  #60 (permalink)
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I am wondering if there are any members of futures.io (formerly BMT) who have taken the webinar and are actually trading using John's particular system?

If so I would appreciate to hear how it is going?

Thank you

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  #61 (permalink)
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I thought I would add my opinion:
I have tried every indicator out there, trying to get an "edge"...I have lost a ton of money doing so. I am to blame, not the indicators.

Last year I bought John Grady's e-book, then I bought his webinar. Truthfully, the information was a little too much for me to absorb at the time. I revisisted the webinars recently and was able to see the entries and exits much clearer.

I decided to contact John directly to see if he would take me on solo for a day fo trading. He was very willing to help me. For a very fair fee, he spent 4 hours and traded his account while I watched and peppered him with questions.

The "one on one" training was simply outstanding, and he taped it and sent it to me to review. John is the "real deal" no false promises of getting rich quick, no BS!

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  #62 (permalink)
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Drd13 View Post
I am wondering if there are any members of futures.io (formerly BMT) who have taken the webinar and are actually trading using John's particular system?

If so I would appreciate to hear how it is going?

Thank you

well, i have all the stuff, and i watched the webinars live, it is interesting to learn, and i learn his point of view, but i tell you something, you can watch him trading ,and then you see his videos from his trading and you can see the same difference from viewing the live market and hindsight market.
also he has a fantastic quick sight to realize when somebody pull one offer.

no magic

you need to read, watch, learn practicing, and deciding for your self


i am using for zn, but it is a tool

the key is how you manage the position, not how to enter

i am reviewing the videos i am recording and almost terades can be winners ...

La lucha es de igual a igual contra uno mismo
The fight is fair against oneself
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  #63 (permalink)
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John does a damn good job

Hands down, noBS - pun intended

-Bill_M

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  #64 (permalink)
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I thought I would jump in on this thread because I'm a big fan of John's work and I've been putting it to use in my own trading. I'm sorry that @alejo had a bad experience, but glad to see that he is finding ways to get value from the material.

Last Fall I bought John's Basic course which included the book and the videos. It's a terrific value. Even if you're unsure if this sort of trading fits your style you'll get a lot out of the book and video, and some new perspective on the markets.

This probably makes me out to be some kind of weirdo but I've read the book no less than 6 times all the way through in the past few months (it's very readable). I've also watched the video several times. After some time I decided to purchase the Intermediate course, knowing that I would get a few more videos and the cost would be discounted if I took a webinar, which I was leaning towards anyway.

In December I participated in John's Eurex course. I'm in the US, but the timing worked for me and I was ready for more information, so I decided to attend. The webinar was good. There were times when John struggled, similar to what @alejo mentioned, but I tended to be sympathetic to it since I can't imagine trying to trade real money, teach, and run webinar software. Plus John was on a schedule that is as trying for him as it was for me, with the time shift. In the end the videos that came out of that webinar have been hugely valuable to me. John not only delivers the live webinar videos and summary videos highlighting voice over trades from the webinar, but you also get about 16 "starter videos" that cover a ton of material: some trades, some psychology, some money management, etc... Those have been really helpful to me over the past few months, as I keep coming back to them. A $1,000+ USD is nothing to take lightly and so if you think you might be interested take a look at the Basic, Intermediate, and YouTube material first. Also, John will be giving a webinar on Big Mike this coming week. So be sure to attend that.

This sort of trading is not for everyone, and I truly believe your trading approach has to fit your personality. For me it's been a good fit and John's material has been invaluable to me. Just for example, on Tuesday of this week I had a bad trade in the Bund (never got off the Eurex schedule) out of the gate and made a big mistake. I was sort of ruined for the day and possibly the next few days. I spent the next two days (Wed and Thurs) only sim trading, and reviewing some of John's videos, specifically those that dealt with the areas I was struggling with. I made some changes to my trading plan as a result of the information in those videos, and it helped give me a better perspective to understand what I was doing wrong and how I could improve it.

I hope this helps.

Michael

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  #65 (permalink)
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@empty

Keep it up Michael!
You'll get there.
Put the order flow reading in context when you apply John's information.
You must relate current order flow to the story building.
Many look at order flow trading trying to go about it in a rigid manner. You need to also consider how new information can change the picture.
Trying to focus on the inside only without understanding the outside will have you scratching at best.
If you focus on the inside all you'll get is the one's and two's. By working out the broader market and how it's building, you'll be open to the long tails as you hit the bigger shifts.
Made all the difference for me. Hope this helps.

Good luck with it.
rgds
swicth

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  #66 (permalink)
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Took the course in Feb 2015, and wanted to give it some time for the information to sink in and to put what I learned to use in the market before posting a review.

In short, if you are looking to make a living scalping, then this is a step in the right direction. Being able to read the DOM is really an invaluable skill which you need to acquire.

The starter material which he sends you prior to the course, can be considered a course by itself. It is quite comprehensive and if you go through the whole set of videos, you could basically start trading already. So, in that sense it's almost like you're getting 2 courses for the price of one. Which is quite a decent deal.

And then the 2 week live Webinar starts, and that's where he'll basically spend about 4 hours each day talking and walking through what he's seeing and what sort of trade he's looking for. For my particular webinar, John actually added another week because the first week was bad (in terms of price action, market condition). So that's also a pretty decent thing to do. He will also do a recap of the day, and add in any extra commentary which he might have missed. He sends a complete recording of the live session as well as the recap out every day.

Having said that, the reality is that there aren't many people even teaching scalping, let alone in a live setting. So, I definitely recommend going for it. But need to bare in mind, that it will still take you a lot of practice for everything to come together, because basically after the course, you're on your own again.

John also offers 1 to 1 trade review session to past students, I did 1 review session with him and found it extremely useful. Instead of spinning my wheels for months and not knowing what I was doing wrong or doing right, the review session really cuts short the whole learning process where he points out exactly where you went wrong and what you should be doing more of. You could probably cut short your learning process by 6 months just by doing 1 session. So at $90 an hour, it's really a no-brainer, and you'll be doing yourself a favor.

Hope this review was useful.

Cheers!

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  #67 (permalink)
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Just wanted to chime in to give a few props to John's his one of a kind work teaching order flow scalping.

Like the previous poster said, his initial starter videos are a course in itself and you could easily watch them repeatedly and learn a hell of a lot out of them. This form of trading will frustrate the hell out of you to begin with, John put's it to you like driving a car, you have to grind through the gears and make a few small errors before you get a real feel for the way the markets behave. Some people give up after a month or two as they feel they'll never get it and yes it really does test you initially in that way. You have to persevere with just as you did learning to drive, even though some get scared for the first few times stepping into the car, after a while the confidence grows after you make a few smooth gear changes etc. Order flow scalping off the DOM works the same way.

The greatest asset of this is learning read when you're offside and the trade isn't going to work and scratching a trade or losing a tick knowing that the action hasn't played out the way it should. John's got more of a risk adverse mindset to his scalps which the test of time in the game proves is an effective way of staying ahead of the pack and in the game over the long term.

You can't expect that after the 2 week webinar and watching all the videos once you're going to get it. Piece by piece will come. For me icebergs came first, how much was being absorbed on the bid/offer and I though great that's it! How wrong I was, I got killed the first couple of weeks and re watched a few vids to know that the heavy backtick to show the other side stepping is as a crucial element to the fade. But the context comes into the frame: what type of day is it? Dead two tick day, slow ugly grind, grinding to the upside/downside or fast everybody is playing action. Once you start to understand the context of the day as the action is playing out you tailor your trading style to be conducive to market conditions limiting risk and maximising on any opportunities that may arise.

I've done a couple of webinars and only started getting heavy into it in May but feel things may be starting to take shape. It's still early days though and I don't want to pre-empt anything too soon. John says most people take between 6 months and year to get it, some longer so be prepared for this before you get stuck in.

Cannot recommend John's courses highly enough, he's a cool guy, very accommodating to anyone's questions and just doesn't feed you the bullshit that a lot of other vendors do. This is how the prop firms and other institutional traders trade so in my view, why should we trade any differently to them if we want this to be our full time job?

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  #68 (permalink)
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I've been around this topic a fair bit and wanted to add my view.

There has been a bit of a change in recent years regarding the retail trading educational offering. There has been an emergence of genuine methods for trading based on reading the order flow. Something that actually makes perfect sense in the strange world of trading. Think about it - if you want to learn to be a good tennis player you can be taught a perfect back hand. You probably won't be able to do one. First in a drill situation then finally in a game situation. John's course is teaching the ''moves", specifically to treasuries. He then shows the 'game' in his webinars. I'd agree that on the 2 occasions I have attended his trading has not been spectacular. But you know, that actually makes me feel better. What he's saying is - you can succeed even if you don't hit home runs. Let's face it that's probably unlikely to happen - having everyday to get 20 ticks. There are trainers out there showing you that kind of thing, and I just don't think it's feasible.

In short I think the training is very honest - and I would bet the john probably trades a lot better on his own
. I know I would. Incidentally I think the same 'kind' of information can be gained from looking at different tools, in addition to the DOM - like the volume ladder and also market profile. I personally think it is a bit easier with all those tools. I think you can get carried away with the games that happen in the DOM which don't necessarily translate to winning trades.

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  #69 (permalink)
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@bobajob
Agree with you. I did one of his webinars last year and although his trading wasn't great, I can't remember whether it was profitable or not, his analysis was very informative. Sometimes it felt like he felt obliged to take trades he wouldn't normally do just to be trading live as we were all there. I think all the pre-webinar information and videos he provides of trades are especially good, and rare that he includes bad trades too, like his 'Run over by a Train' video where he tries to buy the low a few times and doesn't do well. Basically he says how what he did was really stupid and goes through what he should have seen to stop him trying to buy at each level and comments that being successful at trading doesn't mean that you will never make dumb trades again. He struck me as honest, knowledgeable and sincere.

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  #70 (permalink)
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Hmm, interesting read in here. Sounds like not much has changed, I watched his first ever webinars and he didn't trade terribly well then either.

This may be counter trend but has anyone else wondered if he can actually trade, or if he actually trades for himself when he's not doing a webinar? He's been doing them a fair while now so you'd think he should be used to it.

Also another thing, he wouldn't really have to, has anyone done the math?

$1300 for the webinar, say he gets 10 people(probably gets a lot more + previous viewers watching again @ $650 or thereabouts), and does it say 4 times a year, that's 52K just with that alone, then you have the beginner/intermediate courses, then one-on-one for a fee, and most times he does his webinars he "doesn't trade very well"?? For someone who used to be in prop, has been doing webinars for a few years now, that doesn't seem to add up to me.

I think he might be scalping more than the market.

Just a thought

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  #71 (permalink)
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I think we should separate things here.

If John was selling with the webinars a trading system and during those webinars his trading was poorly executed, well, for sure that would be problematic because the first thing in mind would be his system probably was not a good one.

What John is teaching is a method, how to read a DOM and based on that reading execute trades.
Personally I couldn't care less if he's profitable on his trading or not.

For those interested in learning how to read a DOM, volume profile, the $1300 or whatever he now charges are well worth it.
If you trade exactly like him, without charts, or you prefer to have a chart side by side with your DOM is up to you. Whatever makes you better prepared to trade.

And by the way, if he's making $52k a year just by running webinars, good for him.
His work allow us traders to continue to improve our skills.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #72 (permalink)
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matthew28 View Post
@bobajob
Agree with you. I did one of his webinars last year and although his trading wasn't great, I can't remember whether it was profitable or not, his analysis was very informative. Sometimes it felt like he felt obliged to take trades he wouldn't normally do just to be trading live as we were all there. I think all the pre-webinar information and videos he provides of trades are especially good, and rare that he includes bad trades too, like his 'Run over by a Train' video where he tries to buy the low a few times and doesn't do well. Basically he says how what he did was really stupid and goes through what he should have seen to stop him trying to buy at each level and comments that being successful at trading doesn't mean that you will never make dumb trades again. He struck me as honest, knowledgeable and sincere.

Usually one can learn more from others/own mistakes than success... If someone want to watch only "success" go google trading systems for sale... I did not do stats but probably 9x% of system sellers would show you that. ex. how you make 3 ticks "all the time" on 12 ES contracts risking 6 ticks...
I did buy NoBS basic stuff and did learn some new things however trading the way John is trading is not my style... watching paint dry most of the time is not my cup of cake...

How much someone is making with anything they do until they do an honest job and disclose relevant info up front shall not matter. At the end of the day you learn what you can and you either use it or not as you please. Screen time is the name of the game... nothing else matters.

Hope this helps someone!

atata

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  #73 (permalink)
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John Grady's course is one of the most challenging things I've ever tried to do in trading. It took me at least three times going over the videos plus consulting with traders in our group who understand it to finally get a handle on it. I would drop it for a while and then go back to it simply out of frustration because I didn't understand what he was doing.

I use a footprint chart, market profile and one DOM rather than all the DOMs like he does. After I finally saw the power of what he was doing, I started trading the bonds which I really like. I have my own way of using the order flow for trade setups but I never would have been exposed to the bonds and this method without his course.

It was certainly worth the time and effort - even though I was a very slow learner! Highly recommended.

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  #74 (permalink)
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I signed up for John's live course in September of this year, went through the pre-webinar videos at least once and in some cases, twice. I attended all live days except 2 when I was out of town.

After the live course I knew that I had just seen something very valuable but it was very hard for me to comprehend as I had always been used to trading off charts.

In the last 2.5 months I have been re-watching everything and of course live trading everyday on the DOM. Every day I see something that makes sense to me that didn't when I saw it before and of course I have had my successes and a couple of spectacular failures (I learn the most from them).

I believe this is the type of course that I will use for at least a year to learn from and maybe more. I might repeat it again next fall.

I am fairly new to trading (about 1.5 years) although I have invested in mostly stocks for over 20 years. I am now doing treasury futures and I am starting to get my confidence.

I think this course is very worth while and well worth the cost. But unless you know a whole lot more than I did, you had better be ready to work and work more to be successful.

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  #75 (permalink)
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arnie View Post
Personally I couldn't care less if he's profitable on his trading or not.

I'm surprised, Arnie.

If someone's selling me a service designed to facilitate my trading profitably, whether he's trading profitably himself would be one of the first things I'd want to know.

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  #76 (permalink)
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Tymbeline View Post
I'm surprised, Arnie.

If someone's selling me a service designed to facilitate my trading profitably, whether he's trading profitably himself would be one of the first things I'd want to know.

No!
John is not selling me a trading system, he's selling me a method on how to read the DOM.
He's not teaching me to buy or short every time I see a XYZ pattern in the DOM. No! He's teaching me how volume is trading, what is look like spoofs, what is not, concepts like adding, pulling, things that most chart traders have no idea of.

If he was teaching me specific patterns where I would trigger trades, sure, I would agree with you, I want to see if he's profitable because that would certify the validity of his teachings, the trading patterns. But that is not the case.

YOU do your own reading. The context of the day is given by YOU. Based on that context YOU read what the market is doing and YOU decide if is a low risk trade or not.

Like many said already, there was a lot of trades during the course where John didn't execute. He thought about it, talked about it, showed a lot uncertainty in taking the trade, but at the end, even not taking the trade, his reading was correct. The market did exactly what he was talking about.

In the end I'm just saying that despite overall trades during the course were not amazingly profitable or even negative, which might give a sense of disappointment to many of the participants, his reading was always right on.

But that is how I see things. Other people see things differently.

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  #77 (permalink)
Leeds UK
 
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arnie View Post
No!
John is not selling me a trading system

I didn't say he was selling a trading system, Arnie: I said "selling me a service designed to facilitate my trading profitably".


arnie View Post
Other people see things differently.

Indeed. And personally, if someone's selling me a service designed to facilitate my trading profitably, whether he's trading profitably himself would be one of the first things I'd want to know.

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  #78 (permalink)
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I took the beginner and intermediate courses and recently finished the two week live sessions. John teaches how the real market works and how to trade it successfully. There are no mathematically redundant oscillators, moving averages or other indicators. All you need is the Jigsaw platform which was a revelation in and of itself for me.

The course is well constructed and logical in its approach. Like any other profession, it requires study, review and a lot of screen time. I did some of the videos two and three times and used market replay in Ninja to review what I was learning. It really didn't start to sink in until I did a lot of hours on replay.

Beyond learning John's scalping techniques, understanding order flow helps me make better entries with my own algos and setups. That said, I'm already dumping some of my own setups and focusing on scalping.

The two week live session was outstanding - his explanations as to how order flow worked and how to recognize the trade setups were very clear. Most important, he trains his students to understand risk and how to manage a trade.

John has a wealth of personal experience to share as well. I plan to do the live session again in October.

Highly recommended for anyone who can devote the time and effort.

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  #79 (permalink)
Fletcher NC
 
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i took his first payed course 69.00 .. i did not get much out of it. you would need x-trader are the jigsaw dome. i use volume foot print charts. unless you have hundreds of hours to put into reading order flow on advanced domes and other aids like book map.. i would use volume foot print charts. the learning curve on reading order flow is far less. just my 2 cents

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  #80 (permalink)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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I've been interested in learning OF for quite some time now and it seems like the beginner course would be a good place to start. I've only ever looked at charts (of course technicals) and have recently ditched all indicators to focus more on price action and formation.

I read through this entire thread and found it quite an interesting read.

Thanks to everyone who gave feedback here from both sides, in particular the posts by

@phantomtrader
@arnie
@atata
@alejo
@TheDude
@gloricle

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  #81 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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spideysteve View Post
I've been interested in learning OF for quite some time now and it seems like the beginner course would be a good place to start. I've only ever looked at charts (of course technicals) and have recently ditched all indicators to focus more on price action and formation.

I'm also taking the next step in my journey and transitioning from a price action purist to order flow scalper. Keep in mind that John teaches one very specific aspect of order flow. The DOM, the summary tape & footprint are all different ways of displaying the same order flow information. Be sure to investigate all to see what fits you best. For me, it's the Jigsaw DOM. I've been a price action scalper for years, but felt I was missing something. Seeing the order flow for the first time, I realized I had been trading the shadow of the market participants and only seeing the effect of their actions.

As for the DOM aspect of order flow, the teaching that John does is truly unique in this industry. Peter Davies does a great job laying out the basics (for free!). There are lots of sources with training on using volume footprint, but I've been unable to find anything on par with the material John provides regarding reading the DOM.

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  #82 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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Curious... Why Bookmap instead of Auction Vista? Once the standalone Jigsaw is released, using Vista would completely free you from any platform. Personally, I can't quite cut the cord to my one tick chart, so I'm still tethered to Ninjatrader.

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  #83 (permalink)
London, UK
 
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Heph333 View Post
Curious... Why Bookmap instead of Auction Vista? Once the standalone Jigsaw is released, using Vista would completely free you from any platform. Personally, I can't quite cut the cord to my one tick chart, so I'm still tethered to Ninjatrader.

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As much as I value Jigsaw depth & Sales, Vista is not at par with Bookmap. And Bookmap can be used standalone too. The new version 5 is even more detailed when it comes to customisation. Can't do without, very valuable.


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  #84 (permalink)
Vancouver, Canada
 
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dom64 View Post
As much as I value Jigsaw depth & Sales, Vista is not at par with Bookmap. And Bookmap can be used standalone too. The new version 5 is even more detailed when it comes to customisation. Can't do without, very valuable.


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I myself went back to using Bookmap. I just feel the learning curve is not as steep but I'm also focusing on bigger moves intraday instead of scalping for several ticks here and there.

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  #85 (permalink)
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It's just visuals so I suppose it is easier for someone learning. Sometimes there are just a few ticks to take and sometimes more, it is not dependant on the tool we use to watch the market but on the flow of orders itself, or at least this is how I operate. Having said that whatever works for everyone is good !


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  #86 (permalink)
Denton, Texas/USA
 
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So as a beginner in the futures trading world I'm wondering what you guys think of the idea of starting to really learn to trade with order flow, specifically No BS Day Trading. There seem to be a lot of conflicting reports in this thread as to the value of what No BS is offering and it's making me quite hesitant to jump into it. What do you all think?

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  #87 (permalink)
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I'm using it for about 90% of my trading decision tree. The only thing I have up is a naked 100 tick chart for context. The DOMs are attached to daily charts that I consult once in the morning to see where we are felative to the past few days/weeks.
For me personally, I prefer the "before/as she goes". I avoid trading the ranges/reversals. It's not my style. Lately, there's been a lot of runaway trains to jump aboard.

I think the transition was easy for me as I've been scalping price action for years. And I mean price action, not price patterns. Most of what is published as price action is really price patterns. For me, how a bar developed was far more important than how it looked after complete. Some of the concepts I learned from Al Brooks have served me well, like identifying trapped traders. Al was the first to get me to start playing the metagame rather than the game.

My overall philosophy when it comes to scalping is that I'm not playing their game. I can't afford to. I'm simply an observer of the game and placing bets on the players. It's like watching WSOP, except I can't see the players cards. All I can see is their bets. I have to observe the players, wait until someone starts betting big, then decide if they are bluffing or not so I can bet on them or against them, or simply decline to participate.

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  #88 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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Zaradis View Post
So as a beginner in the futures trading world I'm wondering what you guys think of the idea of starting to really learn to trade with order flow, specifically No BS Day Trading. There seem to be a lot of conflicting reports in this thread as to the value of what No BS is offering and it's making me quite hesitant to jump into it. What do you all think?

It is only one very specialized technique in a sea of approaches. The single most important factor is whether the approach fits you.

Some of my opinions regarding the personality traits of a scalper:

1. Calm under intense pressure. I know my limitation for this ability... After about 2 hours of hyperfocusing, my judgement becomes impaired.

2. Satisfied with small steady gains. Can you take only 3 ticks out of a 20 tick move and not let it bother you enough to change the way you trade? Some put it as "would you rather risk 2 ticks on ten lots or 20 ticks on one lot?"

3. Scalpers have to be fanatical in their risk control. With the leverage we swing, you can't afford to hesitate to take a loss. This should be point #1.


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  #89 (permalink)
Denton, Texas/USA
 
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Heph333 View Post
It is only one very specialized technique in a sea of approaches. The single most important factor is whether the approach fits you.

Some of my opinions regarding the personality traits of a scalper:

1. Calm under intense pressure. I know my limitation for this ability... After about 2 hours of hyperfocusing, my judgement becomes impaired.

2. Satisfied with small steady gains. Can you take only 3 ticks out of a 20 tick move and not let it bother you enough to change the way you trade? Some put it as "would you rather risk 2 ticks on ten lots or 20 ticks on one lot?"

3. Scalpers have to be fanatical in their risk control. With the leverage we swing, you can't afford to hesitate to take a loss. This should be point #1.


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Thanks for the quick reply! I really appreciate hearing your feelings on the product and especially that you're having success with it. Offering up your thoughts on a successful scalper's personality traits is just icing on that cake! I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy and have enjoyed studying it most of my life. I feel that in-depth study of philosophy over many years has possibly helped me to have an upper hand over most beginner traders when it comes to the psychology of successful trading. In my experience, I have a fairly good grasp on number 1. The other two will, of course, take time and experience. Thanks again!

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  #90 (permalink)
Johor Bahru, Malaysia
 
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Zaradis View Post
Thanks for the quick reply! I really appreciate hearing your feelings on the product and especially that you're having success with it. Offering up your thoughts on a successful scalper's personality traits is just icing on that cake! I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy and have enjoyed studying it most of my life. I feel that in-depth study of philosophy over many years has possibly helped me to have an upper hand over most beginner traders when it comes to the psychology of successful trading. In my experience, I have a fairly good grasp on number 1. The other two will, of course, take time and experience. Thanks again!

Hi Zaradis,

As far as DOM reading is concerned, I feel that this course is really one of the most comprehensive out there. Although it is a little bit on the pricey side, however John leaves no stone unturned. Although there have been some mixed reviews about this course, particularly with regards to John's actual live trading performance, it would say that it varies. I personally have taken the course several times, and there are Webinars where he does really well, and some where he just did OK. It really depends on market conditions, and that is really the harsh reality of trading. Even if you have a proven edge in the market, there will still be times where you suffer draw downs, losing streaks etc.... I'm sure, that with your background you'll be able to appreciate this aspect of trading.

So, at the end of day, it really depends on what sort of trading style you want to adopt. If you are more towards swing trading, of even intraday swing trading, then this course wouldn't be of much benefit for you. However, if you are leaning towards being a scalper and really identifying pure short term order flow imbalances and taking advantage of that, then I think this course is the best one out there for that.

Hope that helps in your decision.

Cheers!

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  #91 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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Just a quick follow-up. I've stuck with the No BS principles since my last post and just concluded the 4 most consistently profitable months of my 13 year trading career. I have changed the tick chart to a range chart. I didn't like how the tick chart varied so much between volatile and non-volatile days. Other than that, nothing has changed. The chart is only to be a reminder of past price actions. All entries and exits are based on the depth, profile and orders I see on the DOM.

Stats aren't anything spectacular: 48% win rate. 0.22% avg winner 0.15% average loser. But that came out to a profit factor of 1.59 and exceeded my returns for the previous 20 months combined. It really only takes a small edge, but when you compound that edge over many opportunities and time it equals a nice income.

and while I haven't purchased the full thousand dollar webinar, John has always been very gracious answering my e-mails and giving advice when asked.

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  #92 (permalink)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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Heph333 View Post
Just a quick follow-up. I've stuck with the No BS principles since my last post and just concluded the 4 most consistently profitable months of my 13 year trading career. I have changed the tick chart to a range chart. I didn't like how the tick chart varied so much between volatile and non-volatile days. Other than that, nothing has changed. The chart is only to be a reminder of past price actions. All entries and exits are based on the depth, profile and orders I see on the DOM.

Stats aren't anything spectacular: 48% win rate. 0.22% avg winner 0.15% average loser. But that came out to a profit factor of 1.59 and exceeded my returns for the previous 20 months combined. It really only takes a small edge, but when you compound that edge over many opportunities and time it equals a nice income.

What instrument/s are you trading? John trades mainly treasuries so I've focused on them since buying the courses but just curious what you did.

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  #93 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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spideysteve View Post
What instrument/s are you trading? John trades mainly treasuries so I've focused on them since buying the courses but just curious what you did.

ZN and ZB exclusively. I trade ZB much more than Notes. That probably has to do with my background of price action trading. I'm sure there's a lot of AL Brooks going into my analysis subconsciously. The Order flow on ZN and ZF are the context which I base my trades in ZB. I really don't see the order flow signals in ZB like I do in the other two.

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  #94 (permalink)
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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KelvinKing View Post
So, at the end of day, it really depends on what sort of trading style you want to adopt. If you are more towards swing trading, of even intraday swing trading, then this course wouldn't be of much benefit for you. However, if you are leaning towards being a scalper and really identifying pure short term order flow imbalances and taking advantage of that, then I think this course is the best one out there for that.

Cheers!

Although I know what you're trying to say, I disagree with the premise. I intraday swing trade and I use John's stuff to get me into and out of entries. Once I find an area of interest I start watching the order flow closely to see what it's telling me. If it's confirming what I think should happen, then I get in. If not I wait. Similarly when I exit the position it's generally based on what I'm seeing, specifically if it's a trade that has gone against me. Once it trades to my "stop" level, I pay attention to how it's reacting. If it trades to that level but has no conviction then I might give it another tick. I realize no everyone likes to approach it this way, but for me the tape informs my decision making on those intraday swings.

Additionally I will take scalps throughout the day depending on what's happening. This probably helps my ADHD more than it does my bottom line but it keeps me engaged.

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  #95 (permalink)
Johor Bahru, Malaysia
 
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empty View Post
Although I know what you're trying to say, I disagree with the premise. I intraday swing trade and I use John's stuff to get me into and out of entries.
Empty

Actually, I also did use to use it for confirming and fine tuning entries, and I still do from time to time. The problem is, you tend to get caught up in the minutia of the order flow, and the result of getting out prematurely of your trades, and not seeing them to target.

For this aspect, I feel that the Basic and Intermediate course is enough.

You will only reap the real benefits from the Webinar if you intend to make scalping a major part of your trading strategy.

Cheers!

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  #96 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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I think this is the benefit of order flow as presented by Peter Davies. If you already have a methodology that is profitable, order flow can take what may have been trades with a 1:1 risk:reward and turn them into 1:2, significantly improving profitability. If your method tells you to get into a trade in this area, order flow can fine tune your entries by telling you when. The jigsaw course is fantastic for the general idea, but Gradys courses dig into the details like nothing else out there. His perspectuves on the people and principles driving micro price action have been of incredible value to me. I've largely transitioned from my analysis being, "what is price doing" to "what are traders doing?". The DOM reveals one thing that no indicator or chart can, it shows intent.

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  #97 (permalink)
Denver Colorado/United States
 
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Heph333 View Post
Just a quick follow-up. I've stuck with the No BS principles since my last post and just concluded the 4 most consistently profitable months of my 13 year trading career. I have changed the tick chart to a range chart. I didn't like how the tick chart varied so much between volatile and non-volatile days. Other than that, nothing has changed. The chart is only to be a reminder of past price actions. All entries and exits are based on the depth, profile and orders I see on the DOM.

Stats aren't anything spectacular: 48% win rate. 0.22% avg winner 0.15% average loser. But that came out to a profit factor of 1.59 and exceeded my returns for the previous 20 months combined. It really only takes a small edge, but when you compound that edge over many opportunities and time it equals a nice income.

and while I haven't purchased the full thousand dollar webinar, John has always been very gracious answering my e-mails and giving advice when asked.

Congratulations @Heph333, very well done. I pulled the trigger myself and picked up John's basic course towards the end of last year. This was after John sent me tons of emails in response to my endless list of questions. He was always very prompt and thorough in his responses and never once pushed me to buy any of his courses. Other than the webinar, the courses are very cheap and I think John genuinely wants to help people.

I've stuck with the treasuries as John recommends and I've been working my trades in a TST combine. I'm constantly tweaking my settings but I think I've found a general layout I like. Learning to trade off the DOM has been a difficult but extremely illuminating journey for me. Your quote about analyzing what traders are doing rather than what price is doing was spot on. I find staring at the DOM oddly calming because I feel much more connected to what's actually happening in the market. I've spent incalculable amounts of time crossing my eyes over charts and it was almost a relief to throw them away. Well, I haven't completely thrown away all my charts. I still use a few basic charts as part of my pre-market prep process as recommended by John but I don't trade off them. I'll probably pick up the intermediate course after I get some more experience under my belt.

Thanks again and best of luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

Regards,

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  #98 (permalink)
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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If there is one thing that anyone can do to improve their tape reading skills quickly, it's to shut off the charts. Grady says this over and over and I found it to be true.

For those of us struggling to give up the charts, I propose a comprimise. Use a single 15m chart from Tradingview.com. It is sufficient to see what recent price action looked like as well as important price levels. But since the data is delayed 10 minutes, it is completely useless to actively trade off of.

This will keep your focus on the DOMs where it belongs and away from the charts. I promise you will immediately start seeing things you've been missing.

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  #99 (permalink)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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Heph333 View Post
If there is one thing that anyone can do to improve their tape reading skills quickly, it's to shut off the charts. Grady says this over and over and I found it to be true.

For those of us struggling to give up the charts, I propose a comprimise. Use a single 15m chart from Tradingview.com. It is sufficient to see what recent price action looked like as well as important price levels. But since the data is delayed 10 minutes, it is completely useless to actively trade off of.

This will keep your focus on the DOMs where it belongs and away from the charts. I promise you will immediately start seeing things you've been missing.

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Agreed 100% on turning off the charts. I use a 10m chart to do my set up (support/resistance/significant areas) and then put that info into Jigsaw. Once I've completed that, I don't look at a chart again during trading hours.

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  #100 (permalink)
Johor Bahru, Malaysia
 
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This course as well as the Futex Price Ladder course have helped me tremendously in my understanding of reading order flow as well as acquiring that elusive "feel" of the market that everyone is trying to achieve. When I get into a trade, I know with a 2 -3 tick certainty (sometimes even 1) if I'm right or wrong. To me, that is huge. It's very common for me to have 6 to 8 (!!!) losers in a row, but even then, all I need is 1 good trade to make that all back plus some. So by having the ability to know to cut a trade as early as 1 tick, and to know when to pile on for a 30 tick winner, I think that is where the true edge lies in being able to read the ladder.

As a side note, I would also like to add that this type of price action trading is very different from footprint charts. People who have spent all their time looking at footprint or delta charts probably think it's the same thing, but I can tell you from my own personal experience as someone who switched from footprint to ladder that it's really night and day. When I see all these people trade with footprint charts, they still have to use those arbitrary 8 - 12 tick stops. So to me, that tells me they still don't know what they are looking for.

Cheers!

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Last Updated on July 30, 2020


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