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No BS Day Trading www.nobsdaytrading.com

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  #101 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
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KelvinKing View Post
This course as well as the Futex Price Ladder course have helped me tremendously in my understanding of reading order flow as well as acquiring that elusive "feel" of the market that everyone is trying to achieve. When I get into a trade, I know with a 2 -3 tick certainty (sometimes even 1) if I'm right or wrong. To me, that is huge. It's very common for me to have 6 to 8 (!!!) losers in a row, but even then, all I need is 1 good trade to make that all back plus some. So by having the ability to know to cut a trade as early as 1 tick, and to know when to pile on for a 30 tick winner, I think that is where the true edge lies in being able to read the ladder.

As a side note, I would also like to add that this type of price action trading is very different from footprint charts. People who have spent all their time looking at footprint or delta charts probably think it's the same thing, but I can tell you from my own personal experience as someone who switched from footprint to ladder that it's really night and day. When I see all these people trade with footprint charts, they still have to use those arbitrary 8 - 12 tick stops. So to me, that tells me they still don't know what they are looking for.

Cheers!

congratulations!! to know with a 1 tick certainty if you're right or wrong is truly an amazing edge.

even more so knowing that the price ladder (especially inside bid/ask) is very often just an approximation at best. if I'm not mistaken, the exchange is sending 2 different feeds. 1 for executed trades and 1 for bid/ask (what you see on your dom). often those feeds can't keep up with each other. a good example is when you see trades above or below ask and bid. or in between of course. the only dom that shows correct data is the one at the exchange.

me personally, I prefer to go with the facts. like the executed trades on a footprint chart. also I certainly don't need an arbitrary 8-12 tick stop to know if I'm right or wrong.

of course this is just imho, and like always, to each his own

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  #102 (permalink)
 ignacio90 
Madrid - Spain
 
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KelvinKing View Post
This course as well as the Futex Price Ladder course have helped me tremendously in my understanding of reading order flow as well as acquiring that elusive "feel" of the market that everyone is trying to achieve. When I get into a trade, I know with a 2 -3 tick certainty (sometimes even 1) if I'm right or wrong. To me, that is huge. It's very common for me to have 6 to 8 (!!!) losers in a row, but even then, all I need is 1 good trade to make that all back plus some. So by having the ability to know to cut a trade as early as 1 tick, and to know when to pile on for a 30 tick winner, I think that is where the true edge lies in being able to read the ladder.

As a side note, I would also like to add that this type of price action trading is very different from footprint charts. People who have spent all their time looking at footprint or delta charts probably think it's the same thing, but I can tell you from my own personal experience as someone who switched from footprint to ladder that it's really night and day. When I see all these people trade with footprint charts, they still have to use those arbitrary 8 - 12 tick stops. So to me, that tells me they still don't know what they are looking for.

Cheers!

I'm a volumeladder (footprint) chart trader and you can use the same stop 2-3 tics than trading with the dom. If you know how to read them, no difference.

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  #103 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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There's no point saying this is better than that because it all depends how we look at things.

Every order flow tool shows the same thing. The data is the same, how much volume traded or is trading at this exact price.
The DOM add to the reading the limit orders that are in the market and forever changing which for many people is just noise, hence the reason they prefer footprint charts.
Others don't like footprints because it can add too many price points with HVN/LVN for them to follow, hence the reason they prefer the DOM.

When talking about John's course and DOM trading we need to take notice that we're talking about Jigsaw tools and not a Ninja alike DOM.
We can say that a Jigsaw DOM is capable of giving us footprint information, something that a standard DOM can't.

They are similar tools, showing the same thing but in different ways.

Knowing in 2 or 3 ticks (or 1 tick) you're wrong in the trade... it all depends of the market you're trading.
US treasuries, for sure, slow market, ZN can create very defined areas/steps in the profile that you can use a 2 to 3 tick confirmation area because that is the way that market trades.
But in other markets, such ES or even worse, CL, a 2 to 3 tick range for an area of confirmation is suicide because they are fast markets and can easily run 4 or more ticks in a single blow.

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  #104 (permalink)
 ignacio90 
Madrid - Spain
 
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arnie View Post
There's no point saying this is better than that because it all depends how we look at things.

Every order flow tool shows the same thing. The data is the same, how much volume traded or is trading at this exact price.
The DOM add to the reading the limit orders that are in the market and forever changing which for many people is just noise, hence the reason they prefer footprint charts.
Others don't like footprints because it can add too many price points with HVN/LVN for them to follow, hence the reason they prefer the DOM.

When talking about John's course and DOM trading we need to take notice that we're talking about Jigsaw tools and not a Ninja alike DOM.
We can say that a Jigsaw DOM is capable of giving us footprint information, something that a standard DOM can't.

They are similar tools, showing the same thing but in different ways.

Knowing in 2 or 3 ticks (or 1 tick) you're wrong in the trade... it all depends of the market you're trading.
US treasuries, for sure, slow market, ZN can create very defined areas/steps in the profile that you can use a 2 to 3 tick confirmation area because that is the way that market trades.
But in other markets, such ES or even worse, CL, a 2 to 3 tick range for an area of confirmation is suicide because they are fast markets and can easily run 4 or more ticks in a single blow.

Agree with you, this is why I use a footprint chart with Dom information. Both systems are really good tools to take professional decisions. There are good tools out there, that can help to see what John's course teaches.


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  #105 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
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arnie View Post

When talking about John's course and DOM trading we need to take notice that we're talking about Jigsaw tools and not a Ninja alike DOM.
We can say that a Jigsaw DOM is capable of giving us footprint information, something that a standard DOM can't.

They are similar tools, showing the same thing but in different ways.

In the intermediate course he does have trades from TT which he used to use prior to switching to Jigsaw. Personally I found XTrader much more difficult to follow. The split prints on Jigsaw are much easier to follow and give a better sense of market direction.

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  #106 (permalink)
 Heph333 
Springfield, MO/USA
 
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Jigsaw is genius, but simple. Gotta wonder why nobody ever thought to combine the dom with the tape before.

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  #107 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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Heph333 View Post
Jigsaw is genius, but simple. Gotta wonder why nobody ever thought to combine the dom with the tape before.

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Indeed. And Peter says he just could not follow what was going on trying to read the DOM on other platforms such as XTrader, which is why he thought of it.

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  #108 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
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Heph333 View Post
Jigsaw is genius, but simple. Gotta wonder why nobody ever thought to combine the dom with the tape before.

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lol. the 9g dom had that way before jigsaw. (unfortunately 9g is not available anymore)

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  #109 (permalink)
 Blash 
Market Chamois
Chicago, IL
 
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Silvester17 View Post
lol. the 9g dom had that way before jigsaw. (unfortunately 9g is not available anymore)

Peter @DionysusToast first created Jigsaw Depth&Sales in Excel hooked up to Ninja 7 way back when ...2010.... for himself...later it became what we now see..... he did not know anything about C# back then....



I'm very grateful for Pete. Thanks bro...........

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  #110 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Silvester17 View Post
lol. the 9g dom had that way before jigsaw. (unfortunately 9g is not available anymore)

Nope - 9g DOM came way after Jigsaw....

Jigsaw wouldn't exist if someone else already had it!

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  #111 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
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DionysusToast View Post
Nope - 9g DOM came way after Jigsaw....

Jigsaw wouldn't exist if someone else already had it!

it looks like we are not talking about the same thing. sorry about that, my bad.

I was referring more to a "footprint chart" like option on the dom. where you can select what time frame (minutes, ticks, range, volume bars etc). and then also available all the different delta calculations. just the normal stuff you see on a footprint chart.

I'm not very familiar with your product, but I don't think it works the same way. again my apologies for jumping to conclusions without checking first

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  #112 (permalink)
 DavidHP 
Legendary Market Wizard
New Orleans, La (Mardi Gras City)
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Nope - 9g DOM came way after Jigsaw....

Jigsaw wouldn't exist if someone else already had it!

I don't know what came first 9G began as 1LDom before changed to the name 9G
Maybe it copied Jigsaw?

Was that the reason it went away? Copyright issues?

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  #113 (permalink)
 KahunaDog 
Hawaii at the beach
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Nt8, MotiveWave, TOS
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Heph333 View Post
Just a quick follow-up. I've stuck with the No BS principles since my last post and just concluded the 4 most consistently profitable months of my 13 year trading career. I have changed the tick chart to a range chart. I didn't like how the tick chart varied so much between volatile and non-volatile days. Other than that, nothing has changed. The chart is only to be a reminder of past price actions. All entries and exits are based on the depth, profile and orders I see on the DOM.

Stats aren't anything spectacular: 48% win rate. 0.22% avg winner 0.15% average loser. But that came out to a profit factor of 1.59 and exceeded my returns for the previous 20 months combined. It really only takes a small edge, but when you compound that edge over many opportunities and time it equals a nice income.

and while I haven't purchased the full thousand dollar webinar, John has always been very gracious answering my e-mails and giving advice when asked.

Great.

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  #114 (permalink)
 KahunaDog 
Hawaii at the beach
 
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KelvinKing View Post
This course as well as the Futex Price Ladder course have helped me tremendously in my understanding of reading order flow as well as acquiring that elusive "feel" of the market that everyone is trying to achieve. When I get into a trade, I know with a 2 -3 tick certainty (sometimes even 1) if I'm right or wrong. To me, that is huge. It's very common for me to have 6 to 8 (!!!) losers in a row, but even then, all I need is 1 good trade to make that all back plus some. So by having the ability to know to cut a trade as early as 1 tick, and to know when to pile on for a 30 tick winner, I think that is where the true edge lies in being able to read the ladder.

As a side note, I would also like to add that this type of price action trading is very different from footprint charts. People who have spent all their time looking at footprint or delta charts probably think it's the same thing, but I can tell you from my own personal experience as someone who switched from footprint to ladder that it's really night and day. When I see all these people trade with footprint charts, they still have to use those arbitrary 8 - 12 tick stops. So to me, that tells me they still don't know what they are looking for.

Cheers!

I believe I have found similar.
Knowing where to look, when to look at it.
Taking mulitple small loosers then finding a winner and adding on due to confirmation.

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  #115 (permalink)
 Heph333 
Springfield, MO/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Jigsaw
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I did finally spring for the advanced webinar. I'm pretty pleased with it overall. There is a substantial difference between watching videos on a particular trade setup or market context vs watching the market develop throughout the day, with multiple setups.

Progress has come in bursts with periods where it flows & then hitting a wall. You eventually work through it and continue.

I can say that January - April was very challenging for me. Then May more than made up for it.

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  #116 (permalink)
 adam777 
Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: TT
Broker: TT, Quandl
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I'm going through John's Intermediate Course right now.

I'm in Sydney and I'm wondering if there's really enough volatility during London open to be trading the US treasuries using his techniques, or it just too slow?

.... Or is it best to learn to trade bund or stoxx50 using his techniques?

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  #117 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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adam777 View Post
I'm going through John's Intermediate Course right now.

I'm in Sydney and I'm wondering if there's really enough volatility during London open to be trading the US treasuries using his techniques, or it just too slow?

.... Or is it best to learn to trade bund or stoxx50 using his techniques?

US treasuries during overnight hours (London open) not only the volatility can be terribly low but also the volume can be very hard to read. John do not advise trade US treasuries overnight.

For Australia time frame is preferable to trade bund/bobl and eurostoxx50.
John has a course (live webinar) dedicated to those EUREX products.

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  #118 (permalink)
 adam777 
Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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Broker: TT, Quandl
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arnie View Post
US treasuries during overnight hours (London open) not only the volatility can be terribly low but also the volume can be very hard to read. John do not advise trade US treasuries overnight.

For Australia time frame is preferable to trade bund/bobl and eurostoxx50.
John has a course (live webinar) dedicated to those EUREX products.

Yes I guess you're right. I've seen posts that the markets were really choppy during John's eurex webinar. I can see that the US Treasuries charts and DOM videos on youtube look smoother and more directional than bund and stoxx.

I guess it's just a matter of learning the eurex markets.

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  #119 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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adam777 View Post
Yes I guess you're right. I've seen posts that the markets were really choppy during John's eurex webinar. I can see that the US Treasuries charts and DOM videos on youtube look smoother and more directional than bund and stoxx.

I guess it's just a matter of learning the eurex markets.

Actually, bund/bobl and stoxx50 are probably the best markets after US treasuries for scalping, using John's "method".
The volume readings are basically the same for all markets. Trading ZN, CL, GC, 6J, bund, stoxx50, you're always looking for absorption and back ticking.
You just need to adapt how that market moves, its "tempo". How volume actually trades.
US treasuries, ZN for instance can trade 2k or more contracts at a single price and has around 3k resting orders each side.
I don't trade bund but as far as I remember, it can trade around 500 contracts at a single price and has around 1k resting orders each side.

Slower markets allow us to have more time to manage a trade, allow us to read it with a bit more time than faster markets, such as CL.
Just a question of preference, which suits better to your personality.

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  #120 (permalink)
 adam777 
Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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Broker: TT, Quandl
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arnie View Post
Just a question of preference, which suits better to your personality.

I did like the pace of ZN in John's videos, at around 9am on his computer screen ... so something similar to learn on would be my first choice.

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  #121 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT, MT4, Jigsaw
Broker: Continuum
Trading: ZN, ES
 
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adam777 View Post
I did like the pace of ZN in John's videos, at around 9am on his computer screen ... so something similar to learn on would be my first choice.

Send him an email. He always replies. I'm sure he could get you pointed in the right direction.

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  #122 (permalink)
 Heph333 
Springfield, MO/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Jigsaw
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Just realized that it has been over a year of sticking to scalping as taught by Grady. It hasn't been easy, but it has been worth it. After one year, I'm starting to transition to doing this intuitively. What FT71 would call unconscious competence.
John now has a prep and recap service. details are on his site. He basically sends out an early email with S&R levels he's watching for, his take on overnight action & his pre-market expectations. He then sends an update after the market has revealed its flavor for the day. Lastly, there is a post-market analysis of the days action and levels along with what it might mean going into the next day. I've found it very helpful.

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  #123 (permalink)
 empty 
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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adam777 View Post
I'm going through John's Intermediate Course right now.

I'm in Sydney and I'm wondering if there's really enough volatility during London open to be trading the US treasuries using his techniques, or it just too slow?

.... Or is it best to learn to trade bund or stoxx50 using his techniques?

For your time zone the best is to trade the Eurex products, bund and eurostoxx. I did it for six months and had excellent results. In fact I like how the bund moves better than the bonds or notes. Another plus in the round turn pricing is better (at least it was when I was trading it). The only reason I stopped is because I'm in the EST and the hours were killing me.

Good Luck.

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  #124 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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empty View Post
For your time zone the best is to trade the Eurex products, bund and eurostoxx. I did it for six months and had excellent results. In fact I like how the bund moves better than the bonds or notes. Another plus in the round turn pricing is better (at least it was when I was trading it). The only reason I stopped is because I'm in the EST and the hours were killing me.

Good Luck.

Range on the bund is good too!

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  #125 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT, MT4, Jigsaw
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Heph333 View Post
Just realized that it has been over a year of sticking to scalping as taught by Grady. It hasn't been easy, but it has been worth it. After one year, I'm starting to transition to doing this intuitively. What FT71 would call unconscious competence.

Man that is awesome.

Tough journey for sure, but happy to hear you've been able to do it

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  #126 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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One thing that has really helped me:

On days that I work, I record my screen all day. When I get home, I cut it to 3 hours and render the video to 1080. I put the files on my ipad and watch the recording on the bus to and from site (about 1/2 hour each way). This has maximized my time use (normally dead time where I'm check twitter or FB or some shit) and has made me stop looking at charts, and only looking at the DOM.

It has not yet translated into me making great $$ yet, as I have been working more than anticipated. But overall, on the days I've traded my average is positive. Still working on it and getting there slowly.

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  #127 (permalink)
 rptrader 
MN
 
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spideysteve View Post
One thing that has really helped me:

On days that I work, I record my screen all day. When I get home, I cut it to 3 hours and render the video to 1080. I put the files on my ipad and watch the recording on the bus to and from site (about 1/2 hour each way). This has maximized my time use (normally dead time where I'm check twitter or FB or some shit) and has made me stop looking at charts, and only looking at the DOM.

It has not yet translated into me making great $$ yet, as I have been working more than anticipated. But overall, on the days I've traded my average is positive. Still working on it and getting there slowly.

@spideysteve,

What program do you use to record your screen and cut down the video? I would like to do the same for learning and for a trading journal.

Thank you
rptrader

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  #128 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
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rptrader View Post
@spideysteve,

What program do you use to record your screen and cut down the video? I would like to do the same for learning and for a trading journal.

Thank you
rptrader

I have Camtasia 9. Not terribly expensive. Works well and the new version lets you do voiceover after recording. Used it a couple times to show other people things on the DOM like stacking and pulling.

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  #129 (permalink)
 rptrader 
MN
 
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spideysteve View Post
I have Camtasia 9. Not terribly expensive. Works well and the new version lets you do voiceover after recording. Used it a couple times to show other people things on the DOM like stacking and pulling.

I'll check it out. Thank you!

rptrader

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  #130 (permalink)
 GeoTrader86 
Nashville, TN/USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Hello all!

I purchased a recording of John's webinar a few months ago and am long overdue for a review. If you're serious about learning to read order flow via the DOM, then this is a great way to go. I cannot recommend it enough.

I've been dabbling in trading for coming up on four years. I have dedicated my full attention to learning to trade for a living since the beginning of this year and had learned a lot, but had yet to get consistently profitable. I was on the fence about No BS but after going through the beginner and intermediate courses, I took the plunge and shelled out the money for the webinar and it was absolutely worth it.

It's been eight weeks since I started trading live with one contract on ZN. In those eight weeks, I've only had one negative week where I ended up down equivalent to about 1.5x the commission of a single trade. I'm up 54 ticks/contract in ZN and ~20 in ES after commissions. I mostly trade ZN and really only trade ES if there's a great setup and treasuries aren't moving ideally. I know this doesn't sound that a lot, but the consistency is huge for me!

There's no substitute for screen time, but if you're willing to put in the time and effort, No BS will help to get you where you want to be faster than learning it all on your own. I think this course would still be reasonable at twice the current price. It has a ton of info and is a huge value. It was crucial in helping me to put everything together.

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  #131 (permalink)
 Devil Man 
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
Fort Lauderdale
 
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GeoTrader86 View Post
...I mostly trade ZN and really only trade ES if there's a great setup and treasuries aren't moving ideally. I know this doesn't sound that a lot, but the consistency is huge for me!

There's no substitute for screen time, but if you're willing to put in the time and effort, No BS will help to get you where you want to be faster than learning it all on your own. I think this course would still be reasonable at twice the current price. It has a ton of info and is a huge value. It was crucial in helping me to put everything together.

..


any chance you can post a chart with your setups?

thanks!

Johnny

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  #132 (permalink)
 GeoTrader86 
Nashville, TN/USA
 
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Devil Man View Post

any chance you can post a chart with your setups?

As far as ZN goes, the setups are so dependent on the DOM that a chart won't really tell you the story. I have a small 1-range chart for ZN in the corner of my screen but it's only a reference - I don't trade off of it. I approach ES using auction market theory à la FT71 and use what I'm learning from No BS to read the DOM to determine where the strength is. I prefer to be in the market only when there is real pressure. This probably isn't the right thread to post a bunch of charts but you can check out my twitter if you want, there are a few on there. I've been toying around with the idea of creating an end of session video journal, but as of yet it is only an idea.

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  #133 (permalink)
 SBtrader82 
Rovigo (ITALY)
 
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I purchased John Grady's courses, both the basic and the intermediate.
It's very very very basic stuff, also the intermediate one.... I wanted to improve the precision of my entry by using some scalping tools. I am not a ladder expert but if you have one year of experience you probably already figured out most of the stuff he teaches.

The general sensation is that John's method works only for the bonds market. If you apply his methodology to the /ES you will end up making 10+ trades a day to end up with 1000 USD per day, which you could make with 1 trade on a bigger time frame.

I don't like the approach that he has. .... his philosophy is "everything else that people teach is BS", true traders scalp! In general I don't think this it's good to label as BS how other people trade. There are people making millions that never used the ladder.

He teaches how HFT work, but how does he know? he has no formal education, and nowadays HFT are programmed by mathematicians and physicist with Phd from ivy league universities.
According to his explanations, HFT works by looking at big orders on the ladder and that's all.
Come on!!! I have a friend with phd in artificial intelligent from MIT working on HFT algorithms..... I think HFT are smarter than he thinks.

I think there is a lot of valuable tools if you want to make scalp few ticks on bonds, or if you are a complete beginner.
The conclusion to me is, that he just looks at the trees and cannot see the woods.

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  #134 (permalink)
 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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I don’t think you’re wrong. Grady is very preachy about only using the DOM.

As of late, it seems like he is trading ES more than he used to. It seems to me (just a personal observation here, nothing concrete or stated by him) that the bond market has changed and I don’t think he’s been able to adapt as well.

However, that being said, he does have some students that are now swinging a 20 lot on ZN and making good $ doing so. His methods, while not the only way to trade, definitely do have validity.

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  #135 (permalink)
 jkarten 
Tucson Arizona
 
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Hey Sam, you just managed to simultaneously give John the backside of your hand whilst giving him an atta boy with your other... all in one breath!

John's material gives the noob a fundamentally important skill in trading which is reading orderflow. He is one of the few who does this in an easy, well explained way that actually works and makes money. To further illustrate how unique John is in the the trading community at large and not just orderflow. He's one of a very few who will do live, real money trades, win or lose, with his students present in real time.

Since he demonstrably is making money, which few educators in the universe of trading educators can do and document with their trading method, my money is on the guy who can prove he prints real money. If you could trade traders, John would be the high probability trade in the market of trading educators.

In my last 30 years of trading, there is only one other trading educator out there I am aware that offered a better deal than John and would be Larry P. In the late 90's, Larry P would day trade in person, real time in his office, one on one with his students live for 3 days and make money while teaching his approach. Larry P would also refund the entire $3000.00 he charged you if he failed to make money in his live teaching/trading sessions. In the years Ive known Larry since the 90's, he only had to refund one student.

John Grady and Larry P are some of the best money I ever spent learning this biz. Larry P's full name is not mentioned because he's now in his 70's and retired from teaching.

Both John and Larry are standouts in the trading community regardless of their completely different approaches - they both make real money.

If you want a fundamentally solid and very well thought out instruction in orderflow backed up with real results, John Grady is the real deal and a great choice.


SamJames View Post
I purchased John Grady's courses, both the basic and the intermediate.
It's very very very basic stuff, also the intermediate one.... I wanted to improve the precision of my entry by using some scalping tools. I am not a ladder expert but if you have one year of experience you probably already figured out most of the stuff he teaches.

The general sensation is that John's method works only for the bonds market. If you apply his methodology to the /ES you will end up making 10+ trades a day to end up with 1000 USD per day, which you could make with 1 trade on a bigger time frame.

I don't like the approach that he has. .... his philosophy is "everything else that people teach is BS", true traders scalp! In general I don't think this it's good to label as BS how other people trade. There are people making millions that never used the ladder.

He teaches how HFT work, but how does he know? he has no formal education, and nowadays HFT are programmed by mathematicians and physicist with Phd from ivy league universities.
According to his explanations, HFT works by looking at big orders on the ladder and that's all.
Come on!!! I have a friend with phd in artificial intelligent from MIT working on HFT algorithms..... I think HFT are smarter than he thinks.

I think there is a lot of valuable tools if you want to make scalp few ticks on bonds, or if you are a complete beginner.
The conclusion to me is, that he just looks at the trees and cannot see the woods.


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  #136 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
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@jkarten

Well said.
I think most people would be happy to buy a basic course that will explain what a previous post suggested it could otherwise take a year of your own time to mostly figure out. A 60 page PDF ebook and a couple of hours of videos for less than $90 seems like a good deal to me. I value a year of my time at more than that.
Also although it is the basic/beginner/introductory course I for one found it covered a lot of concepts that were unfamiliar to me and I imagine it would for anybody that hasn't already had DOM training.

Trading, ideally structured, is a vehicle for expanding consciousness, not damaging it. - Brett Steenbarger
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 SBtrader82 
Rovigo (ITALY)
 
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@jkarten

I agree with you that John's material is good, and he is a serious trader/teacher BUT he sells his material saying that "true traders" just use the ladder... this is the premise behind his approach. His course is called "no-BS" meaning that according to his vision a lot of trader teach BS.

My objection to this is that there is no scientific proof that using orderflow is more effective than not using it. Also you cannot draw the conclusion that since you show some picture of people with a ladder on their computer, then the whole community of serious traders use the ladder. A picture is not a scientific proof.

I am not saying that his material is bad, I just say that whenever you put some axioms, you might limit the possibilities of gaining money in other ways.
I think axioms are very limiting, above all in trading. He makes money exactly as everybody who has 5+ year in the industry makes money.

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  #138 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
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SamJames View Post
@jkarten

I agree with you that John's material is good, and he is a serious trader/teacher BUT he sells his material saying that "true traders" just use the ladder... this is the premise behind his approach. His course is called "no-BS" meaning that according to his vision a lot of trader teach BS.

My objection to this is that there is no scientific proof that using orderflow is more effective than not using it. Also you cannot draw the conclusion that since you show some picture of people with a ladder on their computer, then the whole community of serious traders use the ladder. A picture is not a scientific proof.

I am not saying that his material is bad, I just say that whenever you put some axioms, you might limit the possibilities of gaining money in other ways.
I think axioms are very limiting, above all in trading. He makes money exactly as everybody who has 5+ year in the industry makes money.

I think he emphasizes the DOM over charts to get his students to focus on learning the real order flow. I don't know about anyone else, but it took me a long time to really "see" what's going on in the DOM. I had to study replays for hours and hours until it sunk in. But time spent was most definitely worth it. I do use charts for overall context of the market. I also use Ninza's Volume Delta which is a great indicator. It complements the DOM very well.

When you say "scientific proof" what exactly do you mean? Everyone will take different trades even if they're essentially using the same methodology. I think it comes down to the trader's perception of the market and what his/her statistics say - are you making money or not? That's really the only metric that counts. How you get there really doesn't matter.

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  #139 (permalink)
 Lukebaires 
Buenos Aires
 
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His last webinar just ended. As context this is my fifth month trading live despite first talking to John on October 2016 and getting all his course material back then, including the recordings of a previous webinar he had. Being as lazy as I am implied I wasted one year and a half almost doing nothing but reviewing some of the videos he sends from time to time while not trading. What an idiot. Wake up call for me in 2018, followed John advice of funding my account with just enough size to trade only 1 lot, I traded for two months until I hit margin limits and stop to review the entire material again including the webinar recordings I had.

I went back to trading last February and ended March at breakeven so I knew real progress was being made… Talked to him again to attend another webinar this time live to interact with him and it was well worth it.
Long story short despite having 138 trades live I feel like I’ve learned the tools that might make possible for me to end my fifth month green and grow from here. It all depends on the person but the scalping method being taught here is solid. Here’s the best part at least from my perspective: the guy makes mistakes sometimes and he’s the first to tell you why he made the mistake and what he should have done to avoid it. Walks you through the thought process of understanding context, what types of market actions you should look for to engage, what he is looking for to enter a trade, how to manage it once he is in the trade and why the exit.

Conclusion: I can only offer the perspective of a guy who has no background in trading since that was my case: If you are completely new and know nothing at all as I was (I never traded in my life before and to this day I don’t even know TA aside from support/resistance) then this is the best possible place to start, and honestly you don’t need anything else.

Sorry for the lengthy post and my english, hope it helps someone out there as it certainly helped me when I asked for advice and a fellow trader directed me towards John and the No BS day trading site.

"It is the business of the very few to be independent; it is a privilege of the strong."
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  #140 (permalink)
 ghelias 
San Francisco, CA/USA
 
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If you are serious about learning to day trade profitably, John Grady at nobsdaytrading.com is the Real Thing - a consistently profitable trader who is a gifted educator who wants to help others make money trading. In addition, he has been running and improving his Advanced Course for years, so you have the benefit of everyone who has gone before you and their suggestions for improvements. WARNING - John's Advanced Course has three parts, (1) written PDFs, (2) starter videos and (3) the 12-day live trading sessions. DO NOT attend the live sessions without carefully going through the PDFs and the starter videos, which are the heart of the course. You need 1-2 months to absorb the PDFs and the starter videos to make the live trading sessions worthwhile. G. Elias

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  #141 (permalink)
 jkarten 
Tucson Arizona
 
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Yikes! This guy needs a pill.

He needs more than a pill.. Notice the haughty, elitist intonations in his remarks. He states this is BS, then quotes PT Barnum as if PT is a credible source. PT is a credible source only for scam artists which John Grady is not. I would challenge this guy to put up or shut up. Provide us with a real time, real money week of trading. Do this in real time, narrate the setup as it happens, pull the trigger, (Real money, not some bullshit SIM) manage the trade, exit the position and lets see if his results stand up to his pompous little rant.

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  #142 (permalink)
 jkarten 
Tucson Arizona
 
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Yes, JG's material may be basic and introductory, but thats exactly what its meant to be, basic and introductory. How many times in any business, regardless of skill level somebody goes "back to the basics" and learns something valuable? This occurs because nuance gets by a noob until he/she has some realtime experience to appreciate the value of the material presented by a legit trader like John Grady. John not only trades his money real time with his students, he subjects himself to to the possibility of disgrace and humiliation if he fails to make money in front of his students. Trading profitably can be a monumental challenge in the privacy of ones own real time results . Its entirely another experience trading in front of your students and having the pressure of performing profitably with eyes watching you. Most would crumble with that scrutiny simply because of the additional pressure of having to perform in front of people that paid you a lot of money and expect results. That would apply to legit traders that actually make money privately on their own. They may not be able to make money with the additional pressure of others watching, regardless if they can legitimately make money on their own without an audience.


matthew28 View Post
@jkarten

Well said.
I think most people would be happy to buy a basic course that will explain what a previous post suggested it could otherwise take a year of your own time to mostly figure out. A 60 page PDF ebook and a couple of hours of videos for less than $90 seems like a good deal to me. I value a year of my time at more than that.
Also although it is the basic/beginner/introductory course I for one found it covered a lot of concepts that were unfamiliar to me and I imagine it would for anybody that hasn't already had DOM training.


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  #143 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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Well since this thread has been bumped up I realized that I've never made a post. So I figure now is a good time. I only took the beginner's course, and then started watching the DOM every morning. I started recording my trading sessions because of a journal contest here at Futures.io. I found it useful to be able to look back at my trades, and eventually started livestreaming it on the YouTube channel SpeculatorSeth.

Now I don't consider myself an amazing trader. It took me a good 9 months before I felt like I was really seeing the order flow for what it was instead of what I wanted to see. I've been at it about 3.5 years, and only now do I feel like I'm getting a feel for what the day will be. If we're active and trending I'm really happy with my trades. When it gets slow and choppy I do awful. I'm doing pretty well the past 6 months, but I did really well at this time last year only to blow it all and have a terrible losing streak from April - Sept. I have a live account, but I still spend most of my time on sim. I only switch to live when I'm confident the action will be good for me. It's taken me a long time to understand the different times of year, and how to adjust my trading. Based on what I'm told it's quite common for it to take several years for traders to become consistent because of these kinds of market changes. Perhaps I would have developed faster if I had taken the webinar, but I enjoy grinding it out.

Putting yourself out there on stream is hard, and I'm always worried about if I'm doing John Grady's trading method justice. I've met a lot of great traders, or at least traders that I think are better at this than myself. They show me broker statements, and give me a basic overview of how they like to trade. Through all the strategies I've seen I've never come across a profitable trader that wasn't using volume analysis in some form or another. If it wasn't the DOM, they were using volume bar charts or cumulative delta. It's just that essential. I know many people that have become successful traders starting with NoBS, and I would never recommend anything else.

Every once and a while naysayers will show up. I think such naysayers miss why this course is different. He's not selling you a system. He's teaching a skill. He tells you what to look for, and how to develop that skill. Sure the beginner course lists out entries, but then he immediately walks you through the counter scenario when that signal means the opposite. Trading successfully requires hard work, and even then success is often more modest than you think. I think John puts it best at the end of the beginner course ebook:


Quoting 
I got lucky, really. I mean, I somehow talked my way into a trading job in Chicago and fortunately for me the firm was legitimate and well-funded and one day I saw a guy making hundreds of thousands and he wasn't looking at any charts. If I hadn't had that experience, I would have probably never made any money trading. I would not be writing this book. And that's one of the reasons I am writing this book. People will tell you exactly what you want to hear to sell you whatever it is they want to sell you. I will tell you like I see it. If you don't want to hear it, too bad. If you don't believe me, your loss. I cannot guarantee that you are going to make money trading but if you read this book and pay attention to what I'm saying and start trying to anticipate what the big money is going to do, you will have a really good shot. If you keep looking at charts and keep buying system after system and continue to think that you can turn $2,000 into $2 million, you have no shot. None.

And if you want a guaranteed way to make money, marry a rich person. Best advice I can give you.


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  #144 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
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SamJames View Post
@jkarten

I agree with you that John's material is good, and he is a serious trader/teacher BUT he sells his material saying that "true traders" just use the ladder... this is the premise behind his approach. His course is called "no-BS" meaning that according to his vision a lot of trader teach BS.

My objection to this is that there is no scientific proof that using orderflow is more effective than not using it. Also you cannot draw the conclusion that since you show some picture of people with a ladder on their computer, then the whole community of serious traders use the ladder. A picture is not a scientific proof.

I am not saying that his material is bad, I just say that whenever you put some axioms, you might limit the possibilities of gaining money in other ways.
I think axioms are very limiting, above all in trading. He makes money exactly as everybody who has 5+ year in the industry makes money.

You miss the point he is making. At many prop shops, they start traders on the DOM and do not let them use charts. Many continue to trade without charts for their entire career. So, for a professional trader with a prop background the DOM is their central, if not their only took when scalping.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #145 (permalink)
 kburks 
Boynton Beach
 
Experience: Intermediate
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I wish so bad I could reach out to new - semi new traders and save them YEARS of hope and $.
I spent years running down endless rabbit holes.
Let me shorten your learning curve.
READ AND MEMORIZE Trading In The Zone
Read and implement The Playbook
If you spend 1/10th of your time doing this instead of sending your money to someone who makes a living selling things to educate traders, you will shorten the learning curve exponentially.
You think you are doing it the easy way on courses and trade rooms etc. Trust me, that is the long, hard, and expensive way.
Now I'm on a rant, find out what prop firms rules are to become a prop trader. Turn on sim and follow those rules until you can consistently (3-6 months) meet the profit requirements under their rules. Then start with 1-2 lot micros.

There it is, my free course, all I charge is a thank you.


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  #146 (permalink)
 Brandenton 
Virginia Beach, VA
 
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kburks View Post
Now I'm on a rant

Freedom of speech. Gotta love it. Rant all you want!

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  #147 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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kburks View Post
Read this, then read it again, then read it again, then read it again.

Yeah I read it, thought "what an asshole", and a little while later he was banned.
Not somebody I 'm trying to learn from or emulate.

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  #148 (permalink)
 asyx 
Munich, Germany
 
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I don´t know if J.G. is earning money with the strategies he is adverising.

But a long time ago I purchased some PDF from him for few bucks.

I have to admit, this changed my thinking about markets.
It changed how I perceived markets.

For all beginners I think this is one of the best spend $ 50-100 when it comes to trading.

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  #149 (permalink)
 Anagami 
Cancun, Mexico
 
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Even if somebody gives you the 'best thing' (a rare event), you still gotta make it your own, chew on it, use it, understand it for yourself.

Nobody can just hand you success.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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 stockwet 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
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I noticed a new webinar for JG here at FIO. I thought that I would post a bit of my experience taking JGs course.

To be clear, a lot of the comments on this thread are from individuals that only purchased his basic or intermediate level materials. Not to be offensive, but, you should seriously discount any comments or feedback from those users and especially users who have no experience with any of his material. The real meat of what JG does is evident in the live streaming advanced course, which I completed.

My training sessions were far from favorable. I took his course in February 2014. At the time, I was trading with another individual who took his course at a different time (Eurex). When we compared our results, we found that John absolutely bombed both sessions. In my session, there were so few winning days that I walked away not knowing what winning setups look like and questioning whether or not the approach John takes works or not. My trading partner had an almost identical experience with John's Eurex course. Finally, I worked with another trader last year who offered nearly identical feedback on a later course he had taken from JG.

Now, these are very small sample sizes - 3 training courses out of the many JG has run over the years. I believe his training material is top notch. He does appear to trade live, but, it's unclear if he is consistently profitable as others have purported. JG has never shared a PnL statement, to my knowledge. I learned a lot about the treasury markets in the course and am using some of those principles in my trading today.

If JG is reading this, one thing that I would have loved is the ability to view material from a positive 2 week session. JG allows former students to come back and watch future courses, but it is a heavy fee for someone who already bought the course and had a poor experience. If he simply had an off training course, then offering students the ability to see him in action when things are working would be quite helpful.

Pros:
- Excellent material that was very well presented
- Clear examples
- Specific, actionable trade setups
- A method that can be applied to other markets
- JG is an excellent teacher - patient and professional at all times

Cons:
- You definitely need screen time to learn his approach
- Poor trading sessions delay learning curve. Yes, it's nice to see how negative trades are handled by a professional. But, blowing up a 2 week course is problematic when part of your training method is designed to model behavior and action for students
- Specific principles and setups limited to narrow range of instruments

For full transparency, following are my notes from the trade course documenting JGs results.

The coding is: -- Time - Lot size, Side, Instrument: Ticks gained/lost: Setup --

9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
- 9:35am trade entry
- 10 contracts
- Short
- ZN
- Lost 1 tick
- Before she goes setup


2/3: +1
9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
10:11 - 10S ZN: -2: Fade
10:14 - 10S ZN: 2: Fade
10:47 - 5L ZB: 2: mid-range step

2/4: +2
9:06 - 5S ZB: +1: Before she goes. Stalling.
9:22 - 5L ZB: -1: Fade at lows.
9:26 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade at lows re-entry.
9:57 - 10L ZN: +2: Fade at lows on ZN. Exited quick due to number coming out.
10:54 - 5L ZB: 0: Lower part of prices, near lows. Saw absorption then tried to get in thinking buyers would come in. Market is dead.
11:59 - 10L ZN: 0: Fade at lows. Went nowhere. Sat for 40 minutes.

2/5: -9
8:50 - 10L ZN: -1:
8:55 - 10L ZN: -4:
9:10 - 10L ZN: -2: Spread
9:19: 10L ZN: -3:
10:03: 10L ZN: +3:
11:37: 5L ZB: 0
11:57: 10L ZN: -2
12:09: 10L ZN: 0

2/6: -3
9:02 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade trade, but, in the middle of the range
9:52 - 10L ZN: -3: Fade trade at lows
10:52 - spread example

2/7: -5
8:34 - 6S ZN: 0: Post news trade
8:46 - 6L ZN: -2: Post news, mid range profile step
8:48 - 6L ZN: -3: Post news, mid range
8:57 - 6L ZN: -5: Another post news
10:49 - 6S ZN: +4:
11:46 - 6S ZN: 0:
12:17 - 6S ZN: +1:

2/10: -1
10:42 - 6L ZN: 0
10:57 - 6L ZN: -1

2/11: -3
8:25 - 6L ZN: 0
8:48 - 6S ZN: -3
11:37 - 6S ZN: +3
12:31 - 6S ZN: 0
1:13 - 6S ZN: -3

2/12: 0
8:40 - 2S ZB: -1
9:27 - 4L ZN: -1
9:47 - 4L ZN: +1
10:11 - 4L ZN: 0
10:41 - 4L ZN: +1

2/13: -5
8:40 - 4S ZN: -2
1:19 - 4S ZN: -3

2/14: +4
8:55 - 4L ZN: +2
9:23 - 4S ZN: +2

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  #151 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
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Trading: Equities
 
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I understand your point. I took the course in 2015 and he ended the 2 weeks breakeven.
I review the course every year, I can see the mistakes he did, where John himself commented about those specific trades, they were far from optimum, but then again, doing a 2 week course where for those 2 weeks the markets simply died, becomes really difficult for a trader to teach his craft, specially when everything is based on DOM reading. He tend to force trades just to show people who is attending some action, otherwise would be 4 hours of nothing happening.

He is teaching the reality of the game, and that reality sometimes is that nothing is happening or market is behaving in such a away that we can't read it so we can't trade. How to explain someone that just paid $1200, that he cannot see nothing to trade so he just sit on his hands and wait for something to come up?

Obviously to make things worse, or not, his favorable market is the treasuries that nowadays are far worse than 2014. In 2014 we could see ZN with 500 to 1500 lots per price. Today there are days ZN has 2000 to 5000 lots per price. It can take more than 30min to move a single tick. Based on this, I would say it becomes even harder do to a live webinar solely based on the treasuries. People will start to cut their wrists

Fortunately John has adapted and has been introducing more and more ES on his course, on his trading, which will allow more action during the 2 weeks live.

Nonetheless, his teachings completely changed the way I looked and trade the markets.
I have no idea if he's profitable or not, not really something I care about.
I will forever be in debt to him for what I learned during those 2 weeks and all the material that those 2 weeks come with.

At the end, everything will be based on our capacity to read the markets based on what John teaches, to find our own path, our own patterns.










stockwet View Post
I noticed a new webinar for JG here at FIO. I thought that I would post a bit of my experience taking JGs course.

To be clear, a lot of the comments on this thread are from individuals that only purchased his basic or intermediate level materials. Not to be offensive, but, you should seriously discount any comments or feedback from those users and especially users who have no experience with any of his material. The real meat of what JG does is evident in the live streaming advanced course, which I completed.

My training sessions were far from favorable. I took his course in February 2014. At the time, I was trading with another individual who took his course at a different time (Eurex). When we compared our results, we found that John absolutely bombed both sessions. In my session, there were so few winning days that I walked away not knowing what winning setups look like and questioning whether or not the approach John takes works or not. My trading partner had an almost identical experience with John's Eurex course. Finally, I worked with another trader last year who offered nearly identical feedback on a later course he had taken from JG.

Now, these are very small sample sizes - 3 training courses out of the many JG has run over the years. I believe his training material is top notch. He does appear to trade live, but, it's unclear if he is consistently profitable as others have purported. JG has never shared a PnL statement, to my knowledge. I learned a lot about the treasury markets in the course and am using some of those principles in my trading today.

If JG is reading this, one thing that I would have loved is the ability to view material from a positive 2 week session. JG allows former students to come back and watch future courses, but it is a heavy fee for someone who already bought the course and had a poor experience. If he simply had an off training course, then offering students the ability to see him in action when things are working would be quite helpful.

Pros:
- Excellent material that was very well presented
- Clear examples
- Specific, actionable trade setups
- A method that can be applied to other markets
- JG is an excellent teacher - patient and professional at all times

Cons:
- You definitely need screen time to learn his approach
- Poor trading sessions delay learning curve. Yes, it's nice to see how negative trades are handled by a professional. But, blowing up a 2 week course is problematic when part of your training method is designed to model behavior and action for students
- Specific principles and setups limited to narrow range of instruments

For full transparency, following are my notes from the trade course documenting JGs results.

The coding is: -- Time - Lot size, Side, Instrument: Ticks gained/lost: Setup --

9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
- 9:35am trade entry
- 10 contracts
- Short
- ZN
- Lost 1 tick
- Before she goes setup


2/3: +1
9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
10:11 - 10S ZN: -2: Fade
10:14 - 10S ZN: 2: Fade
10:47 - 5L ZB: 2: mid-range step

2/4: +2
9:06 - 5S ZB: +1: Before she goes. Stalling.
9:22 - 5L ZB: -1: Fade at lows.
9:26 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade at lows re-entry.
9:57 - 10L ZN: +2: Fade at lows on ZN. Exited quick due to number coming out.
10:54 - 5L ZB: 0: Lower part of prices, near lows. Saw absorption then tried to get in thinking buyers would come in. Market is dead.
11:59 - 10L ZN: 0: Fade at lows. Went nowhere. Sat for 40 minutes.

2/5: -9
8:50 - 10L ZN: -1:
8:55 - 10L ZN: -4:
9:10 - 10L ZN: -2: Spread
9:19: 10L ZN: -3:
10:03: 10L ZN: +3:
11:37: 5L ZB: 0
11:57: 10L ZN: -2
12:09: 10L ZN: 0

2/6: -3
9:02 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade trade, but, in the middle of the range
9:52 - 10L ZN: -3: Fade trade at lows
10:52 - spread example

2/7: -5
8:34 - 6S ZN: 0: Post news trade
8:46 - 6L ZN: -2: Post news, mid range profile step
8:48 - 6L ZN: -3: Post news, mid range
8:57 - 6L ZN: -5: Another post news
10:49 - 6S ZN: +4:
11:46 - 6S ZN: 0:
12:17 - 6S ZN: +1:

2/10: -1
10:42 - 6L ZN: 0
10:57 - 6L ZN: -1

2/11: -3
8:25 - 6L ZN: 0
8:48 - 6S ZN: -3
11:37 - 6S ZN: +3
12:31 - 6S ZN: 0
1:13 - 6S ZN: -3

2/12: 0
8:40 - 2S ZB: -1
9:27 - 4L ZN: -1
9:47 - 4L ZN: +1
10:11 - 4L ZN: 0
10:41 - 4L ZN: +1

2/13: -5
8:40 - 4S ZN: -2
1:19 - 4S ZN: -3

2/14: +4
8:55 - 4L ZN: +2
9:23 - 4S ZN: +2


If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #152 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
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Posts: 357 since May 2011
Thanks: 107 given, 615 received


stockwet View Post
I noticed a new webinar for JG here at FIO. I thought that I would post a bit of my experience taking JGs course.

To be clear, a lot of the comments on this thread are from individuals that only purchased his basic or intermediate level materials. Not to be offensive, but, you should seriously discount any comments or feedback from those users and especially users who have no experience with any of his material. The real meat of what JG does is evident in the live streaming advanced course, which I completed.

My training sessions were far from favorable. I took his course in February 2014. At the time, I was trading with another individual who took his course at a different time (Eurex). When we compared our results, we found that John absolutely bombed both sessions. In my session, there were so few winning days that I walked away not knowing what winning setups look like and questioning whether or not the approach John takes works or not. My trading partner had an almost identical experience with John's Eurex course. Finally, I worked with another trader last year who offered nearly identical feedback on a later course he had taken from JG.

Now, these are very small sample sizes - 3 training courses out of the many JG has run over the years. I believe his training material is top notch. He does appear to trade live, but, it's unclear if he is consistently profitable as others have purported. JG has never shared a PnL statement, to my knowledge. I learned a lot about the treasury markets in the course and am using some of those principles in my trading today.

If JG is reading this, one thing that I would have loved is the ability to view material from a positive 2 week session. JG allows former students to come back and watch future courses, but it is a heavy fee for someone who already bought the course and had a poor experience. If he simply had an off training course, then offering students the ability to see him in action when things are working would be quite helpful.

Pros:
- Excellent material that was very well presented
- Clear examples
- Specific, actionable trade setups
- A method that can be applied to other markets
- JG is an excellent teacher - patient and professional at all times

Cons:
- You definitely need screen time to learn his approach
- Poor trading sessions delay learning curve. Yes, it's nice to see how negative trades are handled by a professional. But, blowing up a 2 week course is problematic when part of your training method is designed to model behavior and action for students
- Specific principles and setups limited to narrow range of instruments

For full transparency, following are my notes from the trade course documenting JGs results.

The coding is: -- Time - Lot size, Side, Instrument: Ticks gained/lost: Setup --

9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
- 9:35am trade entry
- 10 contracts
- Short
- ZN
- Lost 1 tick
- Before she goes setup


2/3: +1
9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
10:11 - 10S ZN: -2: Fade
10:14 - 10S ZN: 2: Fade
10:47 - 5L ZB: 2: mid-range step

2/4: +2
9:06 - 5S ZB: +1: Before she goes. Stalling.
9:22 - 5L ZB: -1: Fade at lows.
9:26 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade at lows re-entry.
9:57 - 10L ZN: +2: Fade at lows on ZN. Exited quick due to number coming out.
10:54 - 5L ZB: 0: Lower part of prices, near lows. Saw absorption then tried to get in thinking buyers would come in. Market is dead.
11:59 - 10L ZN: 0: Fade at lows. Went nowhere. Sat for 40 minutes.

2/5: -9
8:50 - 10L ZN: -1:
8:55 - 10L ZN: -4:
9:10 - 10L ZN: -2: Spread
9:19: 10L ZN: -3:
10:03: 10L ZN: +3:
11:37: 5L ZB: 0
11:57: 10L ZN: -2
12:09: 10L ZN: 0

2/6: -3
9:02 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade trade, but, in the middle of the range
9:52 - 10L ZN: -3: Fade trade at lows
10:52 - spread example

2/7: -5
8:34 - 6S ZN: 0: Post news trade
8:46 - 6L ZN: -2: Post news, mid range profile step
8:48 - 6L ZN: -3: Post news, mid range
8:57 - 6L ZN: -5: Another post news
10:49 - 6S ZN: +4:
11:46 - 6S ZN: 0:
12:17 - 6S ZN: +1:

2/10: -1
10:42 - 6L ZN: 0
10:57 - 6L ZN: -1

2/11: -3
8:25 - 6L ZN: 0
8:48 - 6S ZN: -3
11:37 - 6S ZN: +3
12:31 - 6S ZN: 0
1:13 - 6S ZN: -3

2/12: 0
8:40 - 2S ZB: -1
9:27 - 4L ZN: -1
9:47 - 4L ZN: +1
10:11 - 4L ZN: 0
10:41 - 4L ZN: +1

2/13: -5
8:40 - 4S ZN: -2
1:19 - 4S ZN: -3

2/14: +4
8:55 - 4L ZN: +2
9:23 - 4S ZN: +2

Hello: Thank you for your input. Since that time, are you still using John's methods or have you developed your own? Curious how you're handling order flow using Jigsaw now. I took the live sessions twice with about the same results as you had. But after a lot of screen time and using market replay, I "got it", although I interpret the order flow somewhat differently than he does. I trade the ZB and I find that the market doesn't lend itself to 1-2 tick scalps as easily as it used to. I generally look for 5 ticks with a 5 tick stop.
That said, the course was extremely useful and I still refer to some of his videos occasionally for one reason or another.
So how are you doing now?
Thanks again for the post - I'm going to download the data from your sessions and take a look at the trades - what time zone are you quoting?

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  #153 (permalink)
 stockwet 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 33 received


arnie View Post
Fortunately John has adapted and has been introducing more and more ES on his course, on his trading, which will allow more action during the 2 weeks live.

Nonetheless, his teachings completely changed the way I looked and trade the markets.
I have no idea if he's profitable or not, not really something I care about.
I will forever be in debt to him for what I learned during those 2 weeks and all the material that those 2 weeks come with.

At the end, everything will be based on our capacity to read the markets based on what John teaches, to find our own path, our own patterns.

I really appreciate your reply. I was kind of hoping that my post would lure other points of view, particularly to the positive side for a few reasons.
  • John is a superb teacher and human being. It was disheartening to read some of the comments on this post implying he is a jerk simply because he has a strong point of view around using a DOM. That's unfair to a trader that gives his all to his students. John was ALWAYS transparent, accessible and open. Many of those comments are from individuals that never took his advanced courses.
  • The prevailing point of view among traders that you can only learn from someone that is a known, proven, validated consistently profitable trader is simply not true. I do agree with you that what I learned from John was extremely valuable and I apply it in different ways. That is the nature of trader education. It's a moot point as to whether or not John is truly profitable or not. He teaches a way to trade and we can make that effective for us. Incidentally, there's a whole field of trader education where we don't blink an eye at profitability - mindset coaching. So, we definitely have a double standard. Learn what interests you, practice it, and apply it to become a better trader. While I never use technical analysis and indicators, the years I spent playing around with those taught be great lessons.
  • I fully recognized that experience, and that of my trading friends, may have been anomalies. Hearing other points of view enables other traders to make highly informed decisions.

Despite my experience, if someone wanted to learn how to trade with the DOM - I would recommend John as a good option with the caveat that you will have to do a LOT of work to understand and apply the principles in your own unique way.

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  #154 (permalink)
 stockwet 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 33 received


phantomtrader View Post
Since that time, are you still using John's methods or have you developed your own?

I have developed my own. I use market auction theory and long term values to identify key areas of interest. I use the DOM to validate trade hypotheses I identify as part of my pre-market prep. But, I do not trade solely off of the DOM. I primarily trade CL and have recently picked up treasuries again and am working on those with my approach.


phantomtrader View Post
Curious how you're handling order flow using Jigsaw now. I took the live sessions twice with about the same results as you had. But after a lot of screen time and using market replay, I "got it", although I interpret the order flow somewhat differently than he does. I trade the ZB and I find that the market doesn't lend itself to 1-2 tick scalps as easily as it used to. I generally look for 5 ticks with a 5 tick stop.

I use Jigsaw as well as market delta. Jigsaw's Auction Vista tool is highly valuable to me to spot areas of liquidity and strength. I do not use footprint charts.


phantomtrader View Post
So how are you doing now?

I'm pleased with my results, my edge and my trading process. And, my mindset is far better as a result of some coaching work I've done.


phantomtrader View Post
Thanks again for the post - I'm going to download the data from your sessions and take a look at the trades - what time zone are you quoting?

I believe those times are US Eastern Time.

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  #155 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
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Posts: 357 since May 2011
Thanks: 107 given, 615 received

"Despite my experience, if someone wanted to learn how to trade with the DOM - I would recommend John as a good option with the caveat that you will have to do a LOT of work to understand and apply the principles in your own unique way."

Yes I agree 100%. Market replay is invaluable in that regard. I make videos of some of my trades and also areas of interest that I missed. Studying the behavior on the DOM at these points is extremely helpful because you can pick up a tremendous amount of information on how/why the price reverses. Before studying the DOM very intensely, I was always getting into trades too late. I finally conquered that beast (more or less) but I keep studying interesting moves and recording them.
Thank you for posting your experience.

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  #156 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
Posts: 127 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 36 given, 75 received

I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?

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  #157 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
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Posts: 357 since May 2011
Thanks: 107 given, 615 received


MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?


I think the "missing mass" here is that market behavior changes. What worked last week, doesn't necessarily work this week. If it did, someone could program it. I've studied certain setups on the bonds over and over again on replay video. I came to the conclusion that at times the DOM is no better than a simple chart with a standard indicator.
At other times, it's extremely useful - like today. Last week it was the pits.

I use the ES as a correlated market. It's fairly useful, but again, some days it's absolutely useless.

Simply put, you have to wait for the days when the market is moving. You can scalp ranging markets, but the chances of giving it back on a breakout are high.

I can't blame John Grady for market behavior. But I would say he should be more forceful in explaining that it does change and not to expect his setups to be recurring day after day - because they don't.

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  #158 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
Posts: 127 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 36 given, 75 received


phantomtrader View Post
I think the "missing mass" here is that market behavior changes. What worked last week, doesn't necessarily work this week. If it did, someone could program it. I've studied certain setups on the bonds over and over again on replay video. I came to the conclusion that at times the DOM is no better than a simple chart with a standard indicator.
At other times, it's extremely useful - like today. Last week it was the pits.

I use the ES as a correlated market. It's fairly useful, but again, some days it's absolutely useless.

Simply put, you have to wait for the days when the market is moving. You can scalp ranging markets, but the chances of giving it back on a breakout are high.

I can't blame John Grady for market behavior. But I would say he should be more forceful in explaining that it does change and not to expect his setups to be recurring day after day - because they don't.

I agree but isn't that all basic knowledge? Markets change, correlations breakdown and so forth.

Does he only have webinars during weeks when it is tough to make any money?

Does it not also show a major weakness in his style that he can have so many webinars of poor trading?

Does it not prove like you said that HIS STYLE of DOM trading is no better than just pulling up a chart? Not to be mistaken with all styles of DOM trading. There are other styles that perform much better than what i've seen and have heard from him and his students.

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  #159 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I agree but isn't that all basic knowledge? Markets change, correlations breakdown and so forth.

Does he only have webinars during weeks when it is tough to make any money?

Does it not also show a major weakness in his style that he can have so many webinars of poor trading?

Does it not prove like you said that HIS STYLE of DOM trading is no better than just pulling up a chart? Not to be mistaken with all styles of DOM trading. There are other styles that perform much better than what i've seen and have heard from him and his students.

You could be right - I don't know. Since taking his course and attending two live sessions, I have developed my own interpretation of price action on the DOM. And it doesn't always "work". There are plenty of days when nothing works.
Last week was classic for that. Today was entirely different - could read it like a book and finished up $2,000 for the day.
Covered some of the losses last week - but that's simply the way this business works. It's what you keep that counts regardless which method you use.

I still think that overall his instruction is very useful, particularly if you have no experience. As I've said many times, it took me longer than most to "get it". But when I did it made a difference. So it's always in my bag of tools.

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  #160 (permalink)
 stockwet 
Austin, TX
 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?

I probably have a bit of buyer's remorse in posting my previous comments. I was not intending to roast John in any way. I was looking to give a fairly honest view into his training product.

What did not come through with my original post was that even though John finished the webinar series down, I would still recommend the course and count the training I did with John as a strong asset in my development as a trader. All that, even though it wasn't a particular positive experience in terms of John's results. I'm not sure how much stronger of an endorsement you could get than "hey, I watched this guy trade for two weeks, he ended down, and it was highly valuable to me."

Unfortunately, John is likely not in a position to defend himself on a forum like this. He has restrictions that bar him from sharing too much information, as do most traders who work as trainers. I really don't know if John is a profitable trader or not. I do know that I did gain extremely valuable insight about order flow from his advanced course, which I've tailored for myself.

I also found John to be EXTREMELY open and transparent. I would be willing to bet that anyone who contacted him directly would get more insight into his results than he could share publicly. I definitely encourage that. He was very approachable when I was a student and even since then.

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 matthew28 
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stockwet View Post
Unfortunately, John is likely not in a position to defend himself on a forum like this. He has restrictions that bar him from sharing too much information, as do most traders who work as trainers.

I doubt this is true. The defense of "unfortunately I can't talk about this or show my DOM with live trades" is usually the defense of shitty indicator salesmen.
I too have done one of his Live Webinar training courses and you spend the whole time looking at his DOMs while he places trades over a few hours a day for a couple of weeks. Even the free videos/webinars he does here often include trades.
The only thing covered over is his account number. Nobody on this forum posts screenshots of their trading account numbers. Also he doesn't show trading statements, but then as he and others have said, it is easy to fake those anyway.
I imagine he doesn't post here because: not everybody is interested in forums/social media, and this review thread is already mostly pretty complementary.

I do agree though with your sentiments about the general feeling one gets for his honesty and integrity. I found the Live Webinar I attended excellent information (and as said before, his Basic Course course is a bargain for learning about orderflow). I haven't watched the recordings for awhile so don't know whether the two weeks were positive or negative. I do know though that every trade wasn't a winner and they weren't mostly losers either. So overall it was balanced enough that the thought of adding all the trades up one by one to check the result didn't occur to me, but the quality of the education and the feeling that what he was saying made sense and helped explain what was going on in the market did stand out.

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 hen322 
San Francisco CA
 
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I finished his webinar course for February 2020. He basically broke even on his trades, considering that's still very good when you know it's hard to perform while teaching another, especially in this kind of profession. I don't think many people realize that a person's attention gets divided when doing 2 things such as these, which makes your attention miss cues from the market. I've trained others in other professions, and that's when I make mistakes because I'm talking to the trainee. He also felt obligated to take trades he normally doesn't take because he's doing a webinar, and knows that the students will start wondering why he's not taking any trades that day.

His main purpose is to teach you, even if it does cost him a few ticks to get a point across. I could tell that he was using real money instead of a sim, because of the way he reacted and the feelings he displayed, the same feelings I get too when I trade live. He answers all questions just like he says he would. He answers each question very thoroughly and you can tell his answers are genuine and honest.

He gave more than what I was expecting. He was very thorough on teaching everything that a successful daytrader's day is like, what to expect on your profits, and how to handle losses until you finally turn the corner to profitability.

Everything he said was in-line with all the education I've learned about trading. If you liked his basic course and decide this is for you, then the intermediate course and the webinar is what you need to find the rest of the puzzle. After taking the webinar, I finally feel complete in my education on daytrading, and am starting my real journey now.

He explains and shows you what to look for, to have the best chance at playing this game.

He also records the entire webinar for you and makes another video for reviewing each trades.

It took me 8 months to shift through many webinars given from ninjatrader, futures io, wealth360, jigsaw, and interviews from chatwithtraders, plus some free trials from a few vendors, to finally recognize that NoBSDaytrading was what I was looking for.

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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stockwet View Post
I probably have a bit of buyer's remorse in posting my previous comments. I was not intending to roast John in any way. I was looking to give a fairly honest view into his training product.

What did not come through with my original post was that even though John finished the webinar series down, I would still recommend the course and count the training I did with John as a strong asset in my development as a trader. All that, even though it wasn't a particular positive experience in terms of John's results. I'm not sure how much stronger of an endorsement you could get than "hey, I watched this guy trade for two weeks, he ended down, and it was highly valuable to me."

Unfortunately, John is likely not in a position to defend himself on a forum like this. He has restrictions that bar him from sharing too much information, as do most traders who work as trainers. I really don't know if John is a profitable trader or not. I do know that I did gain extremely valuable insight about order flow from his advanced course, which I've tailored for myself.

I also found John to be EXTREMELY open and transparent. I would be willing to bet that anyone who contacted him directly would get more insight into his results than he could share publicly. I definitely encourage that. He was very approachable when I was a student and even since then.

Some time has passed since your post

Can you honestly tell us did his training made you a profitable trader?

I'm not asking about your feelings, quality of training, John's honesty. I'm asking just about the final outcome

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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hen322 View Post
It took me 8 months to shift through many webinars given from ninjatrader, futures io, wealth360, jigsaw, and interviews from chatwithtraders, plus some free trials from a few vendors, to finally recognize that NoBSDaytrading was what I was looking for.

Hi Hen322,

Some time has passed since your post

Can you honestly tell us did his training finally made you a consistently profitable trader? I mean, you know, can you now treat trading as a stable source of income

I'm asking about honest answer because after finishing other training I had similar feelings to yours, I was very excited and absolutely sure that this time it will be all different, now I know everything to conquer the markets and so on...

Unfortunately all of this was brutally verified by the reality

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 hen322 
San Francisco CA
 
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matzero View Post
Hi Hen322,

Some time has passed since your post

Can you honestly tell us did his training finally made you a consistently profitable trader? I mean, you know, can you now treat trading as a stable source of income

I'm asking about honest answer because after finishing other training I had similar feelings to yours, I was very excited and absolutely sure that this time it will be all different, now I know everything to conquer the markets and so on...

Unfortunately all of this was brutally verified by the reality

I'm glad you asked. Right after the webinar in February, coincidentally, our last day was the first day the market started tanking down hard because of the coronavirus. That day was a good day to trade because of the action. But as the subsequent days came, it became harder, because the liquidity started thinning out more, which created more chop and unpredictable movements. So the price action became too difficult to trade.

John has taught us what to look for and when to stay out. He taught us how to read the orderflow, and the meanings behind what you saw in it. So from then until now, conditions have not been optimal for trading.

After his webinar, I still traded in those conditions because I wanted to put into practice what I just learned. The funny thing is, there was so much info he taught, that I was going by what I could remember. After losing 20 ticks, I stopped, and started reviewing his videos. That's when I realized most of the things I did wrong, and was sloppy in following what he taught.

Now I feel more competent in going for it again, but right now is still not optimal for trading. I decided to do it anyway for the June Journal Challenge, so that Mike can donate more food for Ecuador.

You can follow me on my progress in my journal. But please understand, I don't think John would want me to trade right now.

I would recommend watching/listening to the interviews he gave to two of his successful students from his youtube channel. I think that would help with some of your questions.

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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hen322 View Post
You can follow me on my progress in my journal. But please understand, I don't think John would want me to trade right now.
I would recommend watching/listening to the interviews he gave to two of his successful students from his youtube channel. I think that would help with some of your questions.

Why do you think current conditions are bad for trading?
I'm during training elsewhere and we was told not to trade when there was extreme volatility.
But at least for month or more conditions went absolutely normal in terms of liquidity and volatility.

Can you share some link regarding interviews with John's successful students? I can't find that

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 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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matzero View Post
Why do you think current conditions are bad for trading?
I'm during training elsewhere and we was told not to trade when there was extreme volatility.
But at least for month or more conditions went absolutely normal in terms of liquidity and volatility.

Can you share some link regarding interviews with John's successful students? I can't find that

There are a couple on his YT channel. They are oldish as John doesn’t update it often.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/user/NoBSDayTrading[/yt]

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 hen322 
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matzero View Post
Why do you think current conditions are bad for trading?
I'm during training elsewhere and we was told not to trade when there was extreme volatility.
But at least for month or more conditions went absolutely normal in terms of liquidity and volatility.

We were taught to look at the treasuries and the ES. The liquidity is not as it was back in February. In the ZN, you would see around 3000-4000 at each price level, and the ES, around 300. Right now, I would say 70% of that is back.

There's still enough chopping around that makes the price action hard to trade in the orderflow. I just got word that John is planning to do his next webinar later this month, and that he is expecting it to be good enough for teaching at that time.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you doing your training at?

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MichaelFlowTrader
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I'm still anti- No BS!
I don't think he teaches techniques with much edge.
Every Grady inspired trader I've watched seems to have a winrate similar to a chart pattern guesser.
He might be awesome, but from my exposure to his techniques, his writings, but not his webinars in person-- I wouldn't go to him to learn.
It use to be the case that you 'had' to go to him to learn because he was the only 'real' DOM trader teaching retail guys.
I'm simply unimpressed with his sit on your hands style, and chase size tactics.

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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hen322 View Post
We were taught to look at the treasuries and the ES. The liquidity is not as it was back in February. In the ZN, you would see around 3000-4000 at each price level, and the ES, around 300. Right now, I would say 70% of that is back.

There's still enough chopping around that makes the price action hard to trade in the orderflow. I just got word that John is planning to do his next webinar later this month, and that he is expecting it to be good enough for teaching at that time.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you doing your training at?

Ah maybe in terms of ZN. I find treasuries to slow for me. On the ES liquidity is back, volatility is under control. I'm very cautious person but I see no reason not to trade

I'm taking education in FT71's Convergent Trading + following some experienced traders on Twitter

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I'm still anti- No BS!
I don't think he teaches techniques with much edge.
Every Grady inspired trader I've watched seems to have a winrate similar to a chart pattern guesser.
He might be awesome, but from my exposure to his techniques, his writings, but not his webinars in person-- I wouldn't go to him to learn.
It use to be the case that you 'had' to go to him to learn because he was the only 'real' DOM trader teaching retail guys.
I'm simply unimpressed with his sit on your hands style, and chase size tactics.

Hi Michael,

Can you recommend some alternatives on order flow and DOM-based training

I have enough of theory. Now I'm looking for something practical and actionable. I'd prefer to see some real-world executions

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 spideysteve 
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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matzero View Post
Hi Michael,

Can you recommend some alternatives on order flow and DOM-based training

I have enough of theory. Now I'm looking for something practical and actionable. I'd prefer to see some real-world executions

Check Axia Futures YT channel. Literally a gold mine of OF and DOM based material

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 josh 
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matzero View Post
Can you honestly tell us did his training finally made you a consistently profitable trader?
...
I was very excited and absolutely sure that this time it will be all different, now I know everything to conquer the markets and so on...

Development as a trader happens when you take pieces from here and there, formulate your model of the market and decide who you are as a trader. There are obvious universal principles which must guide you regardless of methodology (risk management, for example), but you literally get to choose who you want to be. People try to copy others, and do everything they do, and it just doesn't work that way. No doubt John Grady has a lot of valuable info to teach, but expecting one person's way of doing things to translate directly to you is not reasonable and not how it works. I'm sure John would agree, and he is exchanging information that you can perhaps find useful, for money. It's perfectly reasonable, and I'm sure he doesn't promise anything beyond that.

You said two things which show you are after the holy grail. It's how almost everyone approaches the market in the beginning. (1) "Did his training finally make you ..profitable" and (2) "this time it will be all different, now I know everything to conquer the markets..." You can accept the fact that this type of thinking doesn't work, and save yourself time and money, or you can continue your search for the holy grail and be right where you are, in the same place, years from now. The choice is yours.

My suggestion: think for yourself. Pay for training, get it for free, borrow ideas, all of that of course -- but own what you do.

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 matzero 
Warsaw, Poland
 
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josh View Post
Development as a trader happens when you take pieces from here and there, formulate your model of the market and decide who you are as a trader.

Absolutely. I got theoretical solid training. Now looking to check some different methods of trading.

Internet is full of theory, but It's very hard to find materials illustrating actual traders during their day and to see how they execute.

I'd like to see how one executes on fast market, slow market, thin market, thick market and so on

If I will see that than I will be able to choose what's best for me



josh View Post
You said two things which show you are after the holy grail

Absolutely not. I'm just not buying the idea that I have to spend 10 years staring at my screen trying to figure it out. It's not an effective way of lerning.

I just want to watch experienced traders and what they do and to choose my own way based on that

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 hen322 
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matzero View Post
I just want to watch experienced traders and what they do and to choose my own way based on that

Agreed. That's why I like John's webinars. You are basically "shadowing" someone who is a daytrader. You are hanging out with him all 2 weeks and experiencing how it really is to be one.

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frank25
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So since this thread has been around for while and assuming that the basic and intermediate course were released a long time ago, would you still recommend these two for a beginner like me when it comes to futures trading?

Just to give you some background, a few months ago i decided to transition from trading equities to futures, currently practicing with Micro E-Mini S&P. The reason for this is because of high commissions, tax rate and also hard to borrow or not able to borrow was getting really frustrating after extensive research on tickers that were good candidates to short.

My main style is scalping, and i would to remain with this style. I don't like to hold anything overnight nor do i have any interests in holding long term intraday positions. well if the opportunity presents its self, sure why not, but this doesn't really fit my personality. I love pure scalping.

Now here are some questions that i have regarding Johns courses :

1) Knowing that he mainly focus on treasuries and since my interest currently lie in S&P futures, would the DOM, order flow teachings that he offers still be helpful to me? Would this knowledge be applicable to trading the indexes?

2) repeating my first question when starting this post : considering the fact that the basic and intermediate course were released long time ago, and also considering that the market is dynamic, changing constantly, would these order flow methods, tape reading lessons still be applicable today? I understand that he is not teaching a strategy but just a method but still, i think my question is still valid.

3) I currently signed up for jigsaw DOM. I am pretty sure all DOMs serve the same purpose but after taking a glance at what jigsaw offers and what other simple doms offer, i can easily say that jigsaw looks a bit more complex. And again correct me if i am wrong, rookie observations i guess. But what i am trying to ask here is that if in the basic and intermediate another DOM was used, will these teachings be easily transferable to jigsaw.

Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide and sorry if i may have repeated myself above. Looking forward to the replies.

Best,
Frank

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 matthew28 
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frank25 View Post
So since this thread has been around for while and assuming that the basic and intermediate course were released a long time ago, would you still recommend these two for a beginner like me when it comes to futures trading?

You're interested in scalping, the beginner course is a bargain. A thick manual covering lots of information and things to watch for on the DOM, and lots of videos too of trade examples including some trades handled badly. The majority of videos are on the Jigsaw DOMs with a few early ones on the TT platform and mostly Treasuries with a couple on the ES. He has also done a number of webinars for this forum, plus has half a dozen videos on his website page.
The intermediate course was very lightweight when I bought it, just a couple of videos and a couple of pages of text for twice the price. But I did intend to sign up for one of his live trading webinars so knew I would get the intermediate course price discounted off the webinar price. If I had bought it as a standalone product I would have been a little disappointed with it, but like I say I would recommend the beginner course as being full of useful information.

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 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
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frank25 View Post
3) I currently signed up for jigsaw DOM. I am pretty sure all DOMs serve the same purpose but after taking a glance at what jigsaw offers and what other simple doms offer, i can easily say that jigsaw looks a bit more complex. And again correct me if i am wrong, rookie observations i guess. But what i am trying to ask here is that if in the basic and intermediate another DOM was used, will these teachings be easily transferable to jigsaw.

John uses Jigsaw and part of the beginner course is going through how he sets up his workspace and what settings he uses.

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frank25 View Post
So since this thread has been around for while and assuming that the basic and intermediate course were released a long time ago, would you still recommend these two for a beginner like me when it comes to futures trading?

Just to give you some background, a few months ago i decided to transition from trading equities to futures, currently practicing with Micro E-Mini S&P. The reason for this is because of high commissions, tax rate and also hard to borrow or not able to borrow was getting really frustrating after extensive research on tickers that were good candidates to short.

My main style is scalping, and i would to remain with this style. I don't like to hold anything overnight nor do i have any interests in holding long term intraday positions. well if the opportunity presents its self, sure why not, but this doesn't really fit my personality. I love pure scalping.

Now here are some questions that i have regarding Johns courses :

1) Knowing that he mainly focus on treasuries and since my interest currently lie in S&P futures, would the DOM, order flow teachings that he offers still be helpful to me? Would this knowledge be applicable to trading the indexes?

2) repeating my first question when starting this post : considering the fact that the basic and intermediate course were released long time ago, and also considering that the market is dynamic, changing constantly, would these order flow methods, tape reading lessons still be applicable today? I understand that he is not teaching a strategy but just a method but still, i think my question is still valid.

3) I currently signed up for jigsaw DOM. I am pretty sure all DOMs serve the same purpose but after taking a glance at what jigsaw offers and what other simple doms offer, i can easily say that jigsaw looks a bit more complex. And again correct me if i am wrong, rookie observations i guess. But what i am trying to ask here is that if in the basic and intermediate another DOM was used, will these teachings be easily transferable to jigsaw.

Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide and sorry if i may have repeated myself above. Looking forward to the replies.

Best,
Frank

I think its worthwhile for the price. There's a decent amount of information. I like John's style, since I use Jigsaw and scalp, his content directly applies to what I'm doing/trying to do. He's big on trading the notes, they are pretty slow moving for sure compared to an ES or CL, but I've been watching those markets more and I see his points.

I'd also recommend checking out free content on YouTube, he's done webinars for this site (FIO) and others, hours of great content. You won't necessarily get the specific set ups but you'll still get a good sense of his style.

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