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No BS Day Trading www.nobsdaytrading.com

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  #151 (permalink)
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts, Jigsaw
Broker: Stage5, OEC
Trading: Treasuries
 
arnie's Avatar
 
Posts: 821 since May 2010
Thanks: 722 given, 1,020 received

I understand your point. I took the course in 2015 and he ended the 2 weeks breakeven.
I review the course every year, I can see the mistakes he did, where John himself commented about those specific trades, they were far from optimum, but then again, doing a 2 week course where for those 2 weeks the markets simply died, becomes really difficult for a trader to teach his craft, specially when everything is based on DOM reading. He tend to force trades just to show people who is attending some action, otherwise would be 4 hours of nothing happening.

He is teaching the reality of the game, and that reality sometimes is that nothing is happening or market is behaving in such a away that we can't read it so we can't trade. How to explain someone that just paid $1200, that he cannot see nothing to trade so he just sit on his hands and wait for something to come up?

Obviously to make things worse, or not, his favorable market is the treasuries that nowadays are far worse than 2014. In 2014 we could see ZN with 500 to 1500 lots per price. Today there are days ZN has 2000 to 5000 lots per price. It can take more than 30min to move a single tick. Based on this, I would say it becomes even harder do to a live webinar solely based on the treasuries. People will start to cut their wrists

Fortunately John has adapted and has been introducing more and more ES on his course, on his trading, which will allow more action during the 2 weeks live.

Nonetheless, his teachings completely changed the way I looked and trade the markets.
I have no idea if he's profitable or not, not really something I care about.
I will forever be in debt to him for what I learned during those 2 weeks and all the material that those 2 weeks come with.

At the end, everything will be based on our capacity to read the markets based on what John teaches, to find our own path, our own patterns.










stockwet View Post
I noticed a new webinar for JG here at FIO. I thought that I would post a bit of my experience taking JGs course.

To be clear, a lot of the comments on this thread are from individuals that only purchased his basic or intermediate level materials. Not to be offensive, but, you should seriously discount any comments or feedback from those users and especially users who have no experience with any of his material. The real meat of what JG does is evident in the live streaming advanced course, which I completed.

My training sessions were far from favorable. I took his course in February 2014. At the time, I was trading with another individual who took his course at a different time (Eurex). When we compared our results, we found that John absolutely bombed both sessions. In my session, there were so few winning days that I walked away not knowing what winning setups look like and questioning whether or not the approach John takes works or not. My trading partner had an almost identical experience with John's Eurex course. Finally, I worked with another trader last year who offered nearly identical feedback on a later course he had taken from JG.

Now, these are very small sample sizes - 3 training courses out of the many JG has run over the years. I believe his training material is top notch. He does appear to trade live, but, it's unclear if he is consistently profitable as others have purported. JG has never shared a PnL statement, to my knowledge. I learned a lot about the treasury markets in the course and am using some of those principles in my trading today.

If JG is reading this, one thing that I would have loved is the ability to view material from a positive 2 week session. JG allows former students to come back and watch future courses, but it is a heavy fee for someone who already bought the course and had a poor experience. If he simply had an off training course, then offering students the ability to see him in action when things are working would be quite helpful.

Pros:
- Excellent material that was very well presented
- Clear examples
- Specific, actionable trade setups
- A method that can be applied to other markets
- JG is an excellent teacher - patient and professional at all times

Cons:
- You definitely need screen time to learn his approach
- Poor trading sessions delay learning curve. Yes, it's nice to see how negative trades are handled by a professional. But, blowing up a 2 week course is problematic when part of your training method is designed to model behavior and action for students
- Specific principles and setups limited to narrow range of instruments

For full transparency, following are my notes from the trade course documenting JGs results.

The coding is: -- Time - Lot size, Side, Instrument: Ticks gained/lost: Setup --

9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
- 9:35am trade entry
- 10 contracts
- Short
- ZN
- Lost 1 tick
- Before she goes setup


2/3: +1
9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
10:11 - 10S ZN: -2: Fade
10:14 - 10S ZN: 2: Fade
10:47 - 5L ZB: 2: mid-range step

2/4: +2
9:06 - 5S ZB: +1: Before she goes. Stalling.
9:22 - 5L ZB: -1: Fade at lows.
9:26 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade at lows re-entry.
9:57 - 10L ZN: +2: Fade at lows on ZN. Exited quick due to number coming out.
10:54 - 5L ZB: 0: Lower part of prices, near lows. Saw absorption then tried to get in thinking buyers would come in. Market is dead.
11:59 - 10L ZN: 0: Fade at lows. Went nowhere. Sat for 40 minutes.

2/5: -9
8:50 - 10L ZN: -1:
8:55 - 10L ZN: -4:
9:10 - 10L ZN: -2: Spread
9:19: 10L ZN: -3:
10:03: 10L ZN: +3:
11:37: 5L ZB: 0
11:57: 10L ZN: -2
12:09: 10L ZN: 0

2/6: -3
9:02 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade trade, but, in the middle of the range
9:52 - 10L ZN: -3: Fade trade at lows
10:52 - spread example

2/7: -5
8:34 - 6S ZN: 0: Post news trade
8:46 - 6L ZN: -2: Post news, mid range profile step
8:48 - 6L ZN: -3: Post news, mid range
8:57 - 6L ZN: -5: Another post news
10:49 - 6S ZN: +4:
11:46 - 6S ZN: 0:
12:17 - 6S ZN: +1:

2/10: -1
10:42 - 6L ZN: 0
10:57 - 6L ZN: -1

2/11: -3
8:25 - 6L ZN: 0
8:48 - 6S ZN: -3
11:37 - 6S ZN: +3
12:31 - 6S ZN: 0
1:13 - 6S ZN: -3

2/12: 0
8:40 - 2S ZB: -1
9:27 - 4L ZN: -1
9:47 - 4L ZN: +1
10:11 - 4L ZN: 0
10:41 - 4L ZN: +1

2/13: -5
8:40 - 4S ZN: -2
1:19 - 4S ZN: -3

2/14: +4
8:55 - 4L ZN: +2
9:23 - 4S ZN: +2


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  #152 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 322 since May 2011
Thanks: 71 given, 527 received


stockwet View Post
I noticed a new webinar for JG here at FIO. I thought that I would post a bit of my experience taking JGs course.

To be clear, a lot of the comments on this thread are from individuals that only purchased his basic or intermediate level materials. Not to be offensive, but, you should seriously discount any comments or feedback from those users and especially users who have no experience with any of his material. The real meat of what JG does is evident in the live streaming advanced course, which I completed.

My training sessions were far from favorable. I took his course in February 2014. At the time, I was trading with another individual who took his course at a different time (Eurex). When we compared our results, we found that John absolutely bombed both sessions. In my session, there were so few winning days that I walked away not knowing what winning setups look like and questioning whether or not the approach John takes works or not. My trading partner had an almost identical experience with John's Eurex course. Finally, I worked with another trader last year who offered nearly identical feedback on a later course he had taken from JG.

Now, these are very small sample sizes - 3 training courses out of the many JG has run over the years. I believe his training material is top notch. He does appear to trade live, but, it's unclear if he is consistently profitable as others have purported. JG has never shared a PnL statement, to my knowledge. I learned a lot about the treasury markets in the course and am using some of those principles in my trading today.

If JG is reading this, one thing that I would have loved is the ability to view material from a positive 2 week session. JG allows former students to come back and watch future courses, but it is a heavy fee for someone who already bought the course and had a poor experience. If he simply had an off training course, then offering students the ability to see him in action when things are working would be quite helpful.

Pros:
- Excellent material that was very well presented
- Clear examples
- Specific, actionable trade setups
- A method that can be applied to other markets
- JG is an excellent teacher - patient and professional at all times

Cons:
- You definitely need screen time to learn his approach
- Poor trading sessions delay learning curve. Yes, it's nice to see how negative trades are handled by a professional. But, blowing up a 2 week course is problematic when part of your training method is designed to model behavior and action for students
- Specific principles and setups limited to narrow range of instruments

For full transparency, following are my notes from the trade course documenting JGs results.

The coding is: -- Time - Lot size, Side, Instrument: Ticks gained/lost: Setup --

9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
- 9:35am trade entry
- 10 contracts
- Short
- ZN
- Lost 1 tick
- Before she goes setup


2/3: +1
9:35 - 10S ZN: -1: Before she goes
10:11 - 10S ZN: -2: Fade
10:14 - 10S ZN: 2: Fade
10:47 - 5L ZB: 2: mid-range step

2/4: +2
9:06 - 5S ZB: +1: Before she goes. Stalling.
9:22 - 5L ZB: -1: Fade at lows.
9:26 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade at lows re-entry.
9:57 - 10L ZN: +2: Fade at lows on ZN. Exited quick due to number coming out.
10:54 - 5L ZB: 0: Lower part of prices, near lows. Saw absorption then tried to get in thinking buyers would come in. Market is dead.
11:59 - 10L ZN: 0: Fade at lows. Went nowhere. Sat for 40 minutes.

2/5: -9
8:50 - 10L ZN: -1:
8:55 - 10L ZN: -4:
9:10 - 10L ZN: -2: Spread
9:19: 10L ZN: -3:
10:03: 10L ZN: +3:
11:37: 5L ZB: 0
11:57: 10L ZN: -2
12:09: 10L ZN: 0

2/6: -3
9:02 - 5L ZB: 0: Fade trade, but, in the middle of the range
9:52 - 10L ZN: -3: Fade trade at lows
10:52 - spread example

2/7: -5
8:34 - 6S ZN: 0: Post news trade
8:46 - 6L ZN: -2: Post news, mid range profile step
8:48 - 6L ZN: -3: Post news, mid range
8:57 - 6L ZN: -5: Another post news
10:49 - 6S ZN: +4:
11:46 - 6S ZN: 0:
12:17 - 6S ZN: +1:

2/10: -1
10:42 - 6L ZN: 0
10:57 - 6L ZN: -1

2/11: -3
8:25 - 6L ZN: 0
8:48 - 6S ZN: -3
11:37 - 6S ZN: +3
12:31 - 6S ZN: 0
1:13 - 6S ZN: -3

2/12: 0
8:40 - 2S ZB: -1
9:27 - 4L ZN: -1
9:47 - 4L ZN: +1
10:11 - 4L ZN: 0
10:41 - 4L ZN: +1

2/13: -5
8:40 - 4S ZN: -2
1:19 - 4S ZN: -3

2/14: +4
8:55 - 4L ZN: +2
9:23 - 4S ZN: +2

Hello: Thank you for your input. Since that time, are you still using John's methods or have you developed your own? Curious how you're handling order flow using Jigsaw now. I took the live sessions twice with about the same results as you had. But after a lot of screen time and using market replay, I "got it", although I interpret the order flow somewhat differently than he does. I trade the ZB and I find that the market doesn't lend itself to 1-2 tick scalps as easily as it used to. I generally look for 5 ticks with a 5 tick stop.
That said, the course was extremely useful and I still refer to some of his videos occasionally for one reason or another.
So how are you doing now?
Thanks again for the post - I'm going to download the data from your sessions and take a look at the trades - what time zone are you quoting?

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  #153 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 30 received



arnie View Post
Fortunately John has adapted and has been introducing more and more ES on his course, on his trading, which will allow more action during the 2 weeks live.

Nonetheless, his teachings completely changed the way I looked and trade the markets.
I have no idea if he's profitable or not, not really something I care about.
I will forever be in debt to him for what I learned during those 2 weeks and all the material that those 2 weeks come with.

At the end, everything will be based on our capacity to read the markets based on what John teaches, to find our own path, our own patterns.

I really appreciate your reply. I was kind of hoping that my post would lure other points of view, particularly to the positive side for a few reasons.
  • John is a superb teacher and human being. It was disheartening to read some of the comments on this post implying he is a jerk simply because he has a strong point of view around using a DOM. That's unfair to a trader that gives his all to his students. John was ALWAYS transparent, accessible and open. Many of those comments are from individuals that never took his advanced courses.
  • The prevailing point of view among traders that you can only learn from someone that is a known, proven, validated consistently profitable trader is simply not true. I do agree with you that what I learned from John was extremely valuable and I apply it in different ways. That is the nature of trader education. It's a moot point as to whether or not John is truly profitable or not. He teaches a way to trade and we can make that effective for us. Incidentally, there's a whole field of trader education where we don't blink an eye at profitability - mindset coaching. So, we definitely have a double standard. Learn what interests you, practice it, and apply it to become a better trader. While I never use technical analysis and indicators, the years I spent playing around with those taught be great lessons.
  • I fully recognized that experience, and that of my trading friends, may have been anomalies. Hearing other points of view enables other traders to make highly informed decisions.

Despite my experience, if someone wanted to learn how to trade with the DOM - I would recommend John as a good option with the caveat that you will have to do a LOT of work to understand and apply the principles in your own unique way.

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  #154 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 30 received


phantomtrader View Post
Since that time, are you still using John's methods or have you developed your own?

I have developed my own. I use market auction theory and long term values to identify key areas of interest. I use the DOM to validate trade hypotheses I identify as part of my pre-market prep. But, I do not trade solely off of the DOM. I primarily trade CL and have recently picked up treasuries again and am working on those with my approach.


phantomtrader View Post
Curious how you're handling order flow using Jigsaw now. I took the live sessions twice with about the same results as you had. But after a lot of screen time and using market replay, I "got it", although I interpret the order flow somewhat differently than he does. I trade the ZB and I find that the market doesn't lend itself to 1-2 tick scalps as easily as it used to. I generally look for 5 ticks with a 5 tick stop.

I use Jigsaw as well as market delta. Jigsaw's Auction Vista tool is highly valuable to me to spot areas of liquidity and strength. I do not use footprint charts.


phantomtrader View Post
So how are you doing now?

I'm pleased with my results, my edge and my trading process. And, my mindset is far better as a result of some coaching work I've done.


phantomtrader View Post
Thanks again for the post - I'm going to download the data from your sessions and take a look at the trades - what time zone are you quoting?

I believe those times are US Eastern Time.

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  #155 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 322 since May 2011
Thanks: 71 given, 527 received

"Despite my experience, if someone wanted to learn how to trade with the DOM - I would recommend John as a good option with the caveat that you will have to do a LOT of work to understand and apply the principles in your own unique way."

Yes I agree 100%. Market replay is invaluable in that regard. I make videos of some of my trades and also areas of interest that I missed. Studying the behavior on the DOM at these points is extremely helpful because you can pick up a tremendous amount of information on how/why the price reverses. Before studying the DOM very intensely, I was always getting into trades too late. I finally conquered that beast (more or less) but I keep studying interesting moves and recording them.
Thank you for posting your experience.

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  #156 (permalink)
Atlanta
 
 
Posts: 123 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 36 given, 70 received

I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?

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  #157 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 322 since May 2011
Thanks: 71 given, 527 received


MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?


I think the "missing mass" here is that market behavior changes. What worked last week, doesn't necessarily work this week. If it did, someone could program it. I've studied certain setups on the bonds over and over again on replay video. I came to the conclusion that at times the DOM is no better than a simple chart with a standard indicator.
At other times, it's extremely useful - like today. Last week it was the pits.

I use the ES as a correlated market. It's fairly useful, but again, some days it's absolutely useless.

Simply put, you have to wait for the days when the market is moving. You can scalp ranging markets, but the chances of giving it back on a breakout are high.

I can't blame John Grady for market behavior. But I would say he should be more forceful in explaining that it does change and not to expect his setups to be recurring day after day - because they don't.

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  #158 (permalink)
Atlanta
 
 
Posts: 123 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 36 given, 70 received


phantomtrader View Post
I think the "missing mass" here is that market behavior changes. What worked last week, doesn't necessarily work this week. If it did, someone could program it. I've studied certain setups on the bonds over and over again on replay video. I came to the conclusion that at times the DOM is no better than a simple chart with a standard indicator.
At other times, it's extremely useful - like today. Last week it was the pits.

I use the ES as a correlated market. It's fairly useful, but again, some days it's absolutely useless.

Simply put, you have to wait for the days when the market is moving. You can scalp ranging markets, but the chances of giving it back on a breakout are high.

I can't blame John Grady for market behavior. But I would say he should be more forceful in explaining that it does change and not to expect his setups to be recurring day after day - because they don't.

I agree but isn't that all basic knowledge? Markets change, correlations breakdown and so forth.

Does he only have webinars during weeks when it is tough to make any money?

Does it not also show a major weakness in his style that he can have so many webinars of poor trading?

Does it not prove like you said that HIS STYLE of DOM trading is no better than just pulling up a chart? Not to be mistaken with all styles of DOM trading. There are other styles that perform much better than what i've seen and have heard from him and his students.

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  #159 (permalink)
Reno, Nevada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ZN, ZB, CL
 
phantomtrader's Avatar
 
Posts: 322 since May 2011
Thanks: 71 given, 527 received


MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I agree but isn't that all basic knowledge? Markets change, correlations breakdown and so forth.

Does he only have webinars during weeks when it is tough to make any money?

Does it not also show a major weakness in his style that he can have so many webinars of poor trading?

Does it not prove like you said that HIS STYLE of DOM trading is no better than just pulling up a chart? Not to be mistaken with all styles of DOM trading. There are other styles that perform much better than what i've seen and have heard from him and his students.

You could be right - I don't know. Since taking his course and attending two live sessions, I have developed my own interpretation of price action on the DOM. And it doesn't always "work". There are plenty of days when nothing works.
Last week was classic for that. Today was entirely different - could read it like a book and finished up $2,000 for the day.
Covered some of the losses last week - but that's simply the way this business works. It's what you keep that counts regardless which method you use.

I still think that overall his instruction is very useful, particularly if you have no experience. As I've said many times, it took me longer than most to "get it". But when I did it made a difference. So it's always in my bag of tools.

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  #160 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ZN
 
Posts: 12 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 30 received



MichaelFlowTrader View Post
I don't think John Grady is that good of a trader because too many of his students say the same thing about their webinar experience. I wonder if most of his income is earned from teaching webinars vs trading?

I probably have a bit of buyer's remorse in posting my previous comments. I was not intending to roast John in any way. I was looking to give a fairly honest view into his training product.

What did not come through with my original post was that even though John finished the webinar series down, I would still recommend the course and count the training I did with John as a strong asset in my development as a trader. All that, even though it wasn't a particular positive experience in terms of John's results. I'm not sure how much stronger of an endorsement you could get than "hey, I watched this guy trade for two weeks, he ended down, and it was highly valuable to me."

Unfortunately, John is likely not in a position to defend himself on a forum like this. He has restrictions that bar him from sharing too much information, as do most traders who work as trainers. I really don't know if John is a profitable trader or not. I do know that I did gain extremely valuable insight about order flow from his advanced course, which I've tailored for myself.

I also found John to be EXTREMELY open and transparent. I would be willing to bet that anyone who contacted him directly would get more insight into his results than he could share publicly. I definitely encourage that. He was very approachable when I was a student and even since then.

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