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Futures Training Program "OpenTrader" www.opentrader.com review


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Futures Training Program "OpenTrader" www.opentrader.com review

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  #1 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

I was contacted by this company and am looking to gather user experiences before moving forward or inviting them on the site. Have any of you used this service or have any experience with them or the owners Ziad Masri or Awais Bokhari?

OpenTrader | Professional Training For Futures Traders

OpenTrader Pro Trading Blog | Trading insights from professional traders

I remember their "We are Traders" video from last year:



If you have direct experience, please share.

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  #3 (permalink)
 josh 
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I have not done business with OpenTrader, but have had contact with Ziad and Awais. Honestly, they are some of the most helpful and nicest traders I have corresponded with. I get a reading of 1 out of 10 on the BSometer, they are straight up.

I find some of their blog posts very helpful, and they personally respond to blog comments, always in a nice way. My methodology is very similar to what they do, and because of that I seriously considered their new training program. I asked them some questions about their program and they responded, and there was zero pressure to sign up.

In short, if I were going to buy trading services, it would be from them.

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  #4 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Thanks very much @josh

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  #5 (permalink)
 omni72 
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I can echo josh's experiences. Nothing but positive helpful interactions and no sign of snake oil. Quality content and very interesting stuff they're working on.

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 Bankrobber 
manchester
 
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Hi

Im also interested in what these guys have to offer. Has anyone taken there program?

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  #7 (permalink)
 Bankrobber 
manchester
 
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It looks like they have a live trading room going by the name EMiniPlayer, not Opentrader?

Im trying to be positive, but the opentrader program looks very very professional, almost too professional for a couple of real world traders to put together.....?

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  #8 (permalink)
 Bankrobber 
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E-Mini Player | EMiniPlayer Zones Indicator for TradeStation - EMini Futures Trading

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  #9 (permalink)
 jeffman 
Las Vegas NV
 
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I am going to sign up for their training. Here's what I like:

1) They have a $397.00 per month (total six months) option.

2) A 60 day money back gaurentee.

3) Both Awais and Ziad are traders.

4) I emailed them and asked for references. Despite the fact they have their 60 day money back gaurentee, they provided me with two references from two traders who took their training.

many other education/trading program charge in the $3,000 range upfront with no money back guarantee.

I will report back in a few months.

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  #10 (permalink)
 jeffman 
Las Vegas NV
 
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I just noticed Opentrader is hosting a webinar this Wednesday. Looks like a great opportunity to Learn more about how they trade. Here is the sign up link.

https://www4.gotomeeting.com/join/513758439/106518224

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  #11 (permalink)
 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
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I just listened to their Webinare. A lot of general information about identifying S/R areas.

What did concern me though was at the end when you could ask questions.

I asked them specific questions about their program and if this was a complete program or just educational material.

I asked them how their coaching worked and if they had a live trading room where they would discuss setting up their S/R zones, their setups, what they were looking for, their thoughts at the time, the trades including targets and stop placement and trade management (runners and etc.) in real time.

I would think if you are offering a complete program then their has to be a live trading room after the educational process.

I wanted to understand how they took a student from the learning phases through the process of being a profitable trader.

I also asked them what percentage of their students had become profitable traders and did they share their P&L statements.

They did not answer those or any serious questions detailing their "Complete Program". Instead they answered a bunch of question like did they use indicators after they already said they did not during the webinare.

Before I spent $2000 I would want the answers to some serious question about the program and success rate.

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  #12 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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rwbil View Post
Before I spent $2000 I would want the answers to some serious question about the program and success rate.

Why not simply drop them an email with your concerns?
It's their program, and you are entitled to answers if you are solicited, but it is very hard to answer all questions while in a webinar setting. Questions fly at you from participants and at times you miss things.
From my correspondence with them and their attitude, they were always very customer conscious and wanted to help.

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  #13 (permalink)
 plethora 
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rwbil View Post

They did not answer those or any serious questions detailing their "Complete Program". Instead they answered a bunch of question like did they use indicators after they already said they did not during the webinare.

Before I spent $2000 I would want the answers to some serious question about the program and success rate.

If they couldn't adequately manage questions, which should be the primary objective of a Webinar, why beg them for a response? You already know how it will go. How people behave is more meaningful and indicative than what they say.

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  #14 (permalink)
 jeffman 
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I am certain they will answer your questions via email. I have received answers to a question or two of mine via email. I was on the webinar. I think after the hour long webinar, it would be impossible to answer everone's question considering there were a few hundred attendees.

To me, these guys sound very genuine. Actually, from listening to the webinar, and a few videos posted on their blog, to me, they seem not only as traders, but, they know how to teach. It's one thing to be a trader and another thing to be able to effectively transfer that knowledge to others. They seemed to have that. I am starting my course tomorrow.


mattz View Post
Why not simply drop them an email with your concerns?
It's their program, and you are entitled to answers if you are solicited, but it is very hard to answer all questions while in a webinar setting. Questions fly at you from participants and at times you miss things.
From my correspondence with them and their attitude, they were always very customer conscious and wanted to help.


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 josh 
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plethora View Post
If they couldn't adequately manage questions, which should be the primary objective of a Webinar, why beg them for a response? You already know how it will go. How people behave is more meaningful and indicative than what they say.

I can understand a cynical attitude towards vendors in general. But this is not particularly logical reasoning. Mike can probably tell you that after a webinar with tons of participants, there are literally hundreds of questions, and with only a half hour or so, how can they be expected to answer them all. The fact that they did not answer a question means nothing. The best thing to do is to write them an email. I did so with a question I had regarding their program, and received a prompt, honest, no-BS reply.

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 plethora 
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Some people do what they say they are going to do and respond to email and others do not.
If they did -- great.
I don't think it's cynical, it's real.
It's like a trade -- they don't all work it.

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  #17 (permalink)
 plethora 
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P.S. I was at a Webinar sponsored by NT yesterday and there were over 200 attendees and all their questions were answered, including the person who said he was a member of futures.io (formerly BMT) and asked why anyone should spend $5k when all the presenter's indicators were on futures.io (formerly BMT) for free. I kid you not.

ETA: Big Mike was the first person who ran through my head when I read the question typed onto the screen because the screen name was very sharp and a play on futures.io (formerly BMT).

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 terratec 
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Very long intro. Good sales man, but OK.

They have good structured stuff and teach it very well.
Not the usual blabla.
A pleasure to listen.

One of the better webinars.

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 Bankrobber 
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just watched the webinar.... was OK, nothing out of this world..... however they did say they are going to trade real cash live and and show accounts over the coming month or so..... soooo lets see how they get on... think thats fair

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 ikeaboy 
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has anyone already taken the program? how is it?

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 rwbil 
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I joined the emini live trading room for the 1 week free trial to see what they taught. That is Open Trader trading room site.

Here is my challenge to any of these trading rooms. I should be able to follow there call such that I should be able to make enough money in the 1 week trial to pay for their month live trading room fee. And then I should make enough money in the month live trading room to pay for their education course. Seems like a reasonable expectation. Yet as of Today, I have not found one Live Trading Room that has been able to do that. I am in another live trading room currently. In 2 days they have not taken a single trade, but we will see if they can deliver.

For my one week trial of emini I followed the speakerís recommendation as close as possible and lost money during that week. It could have just been a bad week. Aaron, the speaker did a good job of explaining everything and was clear on entry areas and targets. But these areas based on onesí risk appetite.

The speaker did not do any live trading and there were no trading statistics available. There excuse was that different people would implement the system differently. I understand different people will implement the system differently, such as where they buy in the zones and etc. But it would be nice to at least see that there is an implementation that is profitable in live trading and see the detailed trader statistics on those trades.
I would like to know what the Win Rate is, what the Risk to Reward is, how many losing trades in a row you can expect and so forth. Especially be nice of the results were audited by a 3rd party.

I am just amazed at how many people will pay them or any vendor thousands of dollars for their educational course with absolutely no proof the trading approach being taught can even be profitable implemented in live trading. Just reminds me of the investors who put their blinders on and invest with Madoff, without looking at their statement and ask where there money was being invested. I do not have that leap of faith personality.

Having said that I thought they were fairly straight forth. No ridiculous selling pressure. I thought Aaron did a great job and I thought there trading method has merit. In fact I will go out on a limb here and say they are one of the better trading rooms I have been in. Like I said maybe I was there during a bad week. I am still learning Price Action Trading. And maybe I will eventually try out their room for a month.

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  #22 (permalink)
 Bankrobber 
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I was suspect of these guys from the start..... it all seems too glossy from the start with the pronominal video and website..... However they did say they were going to show accounts but nothing as yet?

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  #23 (permalink)
 traderwerks   is a Vendor
 
 
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Bankrobber View Post
It looks like they have a live trading room going by the name EMiniPlayer, not Opentrader?

Im trying to be positive, but the opentrader program looks very very professional, almost too professional for a couple of real world traders to put together.....?

Awais founded eminiplayer and opentrader. Emini player has been around for a while so I would say he has some experience marketing. I think it would be hard to tell if they are "couple of real world traders" or not, but he has been around enough to talk a good game.

YMMV

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  #24 (permalink)
 Jedi 
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rwbil View Post
I joined the emini live trading room for the 1 week free trial to see what they taught. That is Open Trader trading room site.

Here is my challenge to any of these trading rooms. I should be able to follow there call such that I should be able to make enough money in the 1 week trial to pay for their month live trading room fee. And then I should make enough money in the month live trading room to pay for their education course. Seems like a reasonable expectation. Yet as of Today, I have not found one Live Trading Room that has been able to do that. I am in another live trading room currently. In 2 days they have not taken a single trade, but we will see if they can deliver.

For my one week trial of emini I followed the speakerís recommendation as close as possible and lost money during that week. It could have just been a bad week. Aaron, the speaker did a good job of explaining everything and was clear on entry areas and targets. But these areas based on onesí risk appetite.

The speaker did not do any live trading and there were no trading statistics available. There excuse was that different people would implement the system differently. I understand different people will implement the system differently, such as where they buy in the zones and etc. But it would be nice to at least see that there is an implementation that is profitable in live trading and see the detailed trader statistics on those trades.
I would like to know what the Win Rate is, what the Risk to Reward is, how many losing trades in a row you can expect and so forth. Especially be nice of the results were audited by a 3rd party.


I am just amazed at how many people will pay them or any vendor thousands of dollars for their educational course with absolutely no proof the trading approach being taught can even be profitable implemented in live trading. Just reminds me of the investors who put their blinders on and invest with Madoff, without looking at their statement and ask where there money was being invested. I do not have that leap of faith personality.

Having said that I thought they were fairly straight forth. No ridiculous selling pressure. I thought Aaron did a great job and I thought there trading method has merit. In fact I will go out on a limb here and say they are one of the better trading rooms I have been in. Like I said maybe I was there during a bad week. I am still learning Price Action Trading. And maybe I will eventually try out their room for a month.

LOL.. You're contradicting yourself there buddy.. Why do you feel that way?

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 Itsjustamarket 
Richmond,UK
 
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So the original idea of open trader was good. A link to a traders account showing the pnl so you could get educated by someone who knows the game. One guy was James I think, who made sensible money. Then everything changed to this get education site, as to why I'm not sure.

That aside people that tell you about "setups" and support and resistance are at best lost. They are probably running this training in an effort to raise some capital so they can lose it in the mkt.

So these guys just like FT71 might know more than you so they seem legit, however they are probably not making money trading.

Just ask to see their account.......

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 jefe 
Snoqualmie, WA
 
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These guys worked with me so I could make payment arrangements for the training.
Then, they made sure I knew about the 60 trial.
I have dabbled for some years and done reasonably well.
However, I didn't always know the reasons that I was doing well...I was just doing what was working.
The videos that these guys have spell it out if you are reasonably intelligent and willing to THINK.
I could cancel and get my money back...not gonna do it...this stuff is way too good and I am waiting for them to Live Trade together.
Every wednesday afternoon they have a webinar to answer any questions and have always taken the time to do exactly what I've asked of them.
Now I understand WHY specific setups are working.
I was able to get on the TF downtrend this morning to the tick....well, 1 tick of heat and followed their instructions to maximize the trade. Awesome...just my 2 cents, for what it's worth

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 trendisyourfriend 
Legendary Market Wizard
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Profitable trading education? you bet...

opentrader just up their training package +$1000 last Monday and apparantly more than 100 people signed before the increase. 2000 x 100 = $200000. Pretty lucrative in the course of a week.

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 mongoose 
Chicago, IL
 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Profitable trading education? you bet...

opentrader just up their training package +$1000 last Monday and apparantly more than 100 people signed before the increase. 2000 x 100 = $200000. Pretty lucrative in the course of a week.

Maybe we would be better off taking lessons in marketing from them rather than trading.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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mongoose View Post
Maybe we would be better off taking lessons in marketing from them rather than trading.

Maybe it is a sign that their training is worth it. Seriously, i have considered taking their training but decided to abandon the idea. I think i know enough about volume profiling. I just need to up my ability to trust myself. That is not something you can't get from videos.

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 josh 
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mongoose View Post
Maybe we would be better off taking lessons in marketing from them rather than trading.

Why should being good traders and good marketers mutually exclusive? Can't they be effective at both? I don't think good marketing makes one dishonest or bad at the service being offered.

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  #31 (permalink)
 mongoose 
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josh View Post
Why should being good traders and good marketers mutually exclusive? Can't they be effective at both? I don't think good marketing makes one dishonest or bad at the service being offered.

I did not intend to knock their service in anyway as I have not used their services or know much about them other than a quick overview of the site. Are they good traders? It is very possible but I don't know. Are they good teachers? A lot of people seem to think so, so I have no reason to doubt them. Are they good marketers? This I can say yes because they have done a terrific job selling their product. That is all I was trying to say in a very short joking manner. Sorry if I had implied they where dishonest, I can not say that because I do not know much about them.

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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josh View Post
Why should being good traders and good marketers mutually exclusive? Can't they be effective at both? I don't think good marketing makes one dishonest or bad at the service being offered.

I think it is hard to be good at both. Different skill sets in many ways. It is also hard for many good traders to be good teachers.

An example is a CTA I know. They have one guy as the trader, and another guy as the marketer.

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  #33 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
Legendary Market Wizard
Quebec
 
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I got an invitation from optimus (Matt) to inform me that opentrader will hold a webinar tomorrow (Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:00 PM - 5:30 PM CDT). You can register here:

10 Keys to Trading Support & Resistance Like Professional Day Traders
https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/131110743

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 Bankrobber 
manchester
 
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Attended the webinar.... hard sell as expected....

They AGAIN mentioned about posting results (as they did here.... but not as yet?)... now they will be posting on there own website in May (if i heard correctly)..... 60 days refund now down to 30days....

work it out....

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  #35 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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The guys just posted a video on some execution errors they made today, and what can be learned from it. Pretty rare to see a vendor admit that they are not the almighty gods of trading and that they could have done better.


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  #36 (permalink)
 syxforex 
British Columbia
 
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Platform: NINJA
Broker: ZEN
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Posts: 1,091 since May 2010

I follow Awais on twitter, he is good. He makes his levels and analysis available each day after the fact to non-members, and i must say he is a talented analyst. Wouldn't it be great though if we could just pay 50 bucks per month to have someone trade for us to the tune of 100k-unlimited per year. No one would be doing that... My only drawback to a lot of these online trading venues is the scale of profits they are making from the analysis and chat room service. A few thousand people paying a couple hundred per month is millions per year pretty quickly. Do you really trust taking advice from a trader who makes more money from selling the advice than the trades, not unless they rae Goldman Sachs.. hahah

That said, if I had the money I'd join them all and learn as much as I could from talented analysts like Awais...


rwbil View Post
I joined the emini live trading room for the 1 week free trial to see what they taught. That is Open Trader trading room site.

Here is my challenge to any of these trading rooms. I should be able to follow there call such that I should be able to make enough money in the 1 week trial to pay for their month live trading room fee. And then I should make enough money in the month live trading room to pay for their education course. Seems like a reasonable expectation. Yet as of Today, I have not found one Live Trading Room that has been able to do that. I am in another live trading room currently. In 2 days they have not taken a single trade, but we will see if they can deliver.

For my one week trial of emini I followed the speaker’s recommendation as close as possible and lost money during that week. It could have just been a bad week. Aaron, the speaker did a good job of explaining everything and was clear on entry areas and targets. But these areas based on ones’ risk appetite.

The speaker did not do any live trading and there were no trading statistics available. There excuse was that different people would implement the system differently. I understand different people will implement the system differently, such as where they buy in the zones and etc. But it would be nice to at least see that there is an implementation that is profitable in live trading and see the detailed trader statistics on those trades.
I would like to know what the Win Rate is, what the Risk to Reward is, how many losing trades in a row you can expect and so forth. Especially be nice of the results were audited by a 3rd party.

I am just amazed at how many people will pay them or any vendor thousands of dollars for their educational course with absolutely no proof the trading approach being taught can even be profitable implemented in live trading. Just reminds me of the investors who put their blinders on and invest with Madoff, without looking at their statement and ask where there money was being invested. I do not have that leap of faith personality.

Having said that I thought they were fairly straight forth. No ridiculous selling pressure. I thought Aaron did a great job and I thought there trading method has merit. In fact I will go out on a limb here and say they are one of the better trading rooms I have been in. Like I said maybe I was there during a bad week. I am still learning Price Action Trading. And maybe I will eventually try out their room for a month.


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  #37 (permalink)
 Bankrobber 
manchester
 
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So when are Open Trader showing real trading accounts as they said they would........... ????????????

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  #38 (permalink)
 nopac 
los angeles
 
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Bankrobber View Post
So when are Open Trader showing real trading accounts as they said they would........... ????????????

Excellent question. I doubt they ever will.

They made a big production about doing it on their blog months ago and haven't ever done it.

I know there are different opinions about the significance of NOT showing brokerage statements but I feel that if a person knows how to trade and actually trades, why not show records? That removes all doubt from their students' minds and really helps them make progress. There's absolutely NO legitimate reason NOT to show proof that they not only know how to trade but actually DO trade.

I signed up for their course, went through the entire thing and then got a refund. Their videos are professional but VERY vague. They just drone ON and ON and ON about academic, theoretical concepts and are very short on actionable guidance. Their "coaching" consists of a weekly webinar where they continue to speak in generalities and vague platitudes. Complete waste of time IMO. These guys are no different than most other vendors.

If they ever do start posting brokerage statements, I'll be shocked.

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  #39 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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Well I have taken their course. I found it good.

I actually was on their Beta program so I had it Free. Yes free as I was lucky to get invited!!. They had all content in the Beta program except the Trader psychology section. But I also went ahead and bought the program. I think personally it was an excellent decision. The psyco section itself is a plus for me. But I guess everyone's situation is different & opinions matter.

i also met Awais & Ziad in Vegas as they had a trader meet & I was there for some personal work....so the timing was good.

Guys, what I realized in my trading journey.....& it is just my humble opinion. The best of teaching/the best of tools will not make me the best trader & a profitable trader. I have access to the Best which is out there in terms of Indicators/tools/equipment/etc & ofcourse education which the thread is about.Even if i had the best trader sitting next to me I realize now that i could not replicate his performance. But I realize that at the end, it is me and only me which deals at market interpretation & execution.

Anyways I feel the course is excellent and has real nuggets.. and thats what I feel when i went thru the contents. I think there is a moneyback guarantee which is good.

Well this was my 2c !!

take care & best
som

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  #40 (permalink)
 nopac 
los angeles
 
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paps View Post
Well I have taken their course. I found it good.

I actually was on their Beta program so I had it Free. Yes free as I was lucky to get invited!!. They had all content in the Beta program except the Trader psychology section. But I also went ahead and bought the program. I think personally it was an excellent decision. The psyco section itself is a plus for me. But I guess everyone's situation is different & opinions matter.

i also met Awais & Ziad in Vegas as they had a trader meet & I was there for some personal work....so the timing was good.

Guys, what I realized in my trading journey.....& it is just my humble opinion. The best of teaching/the best of tools will not make me the best trader & a profitable trader. I have access to the Best which is out there in terms of Indicators/tools/equipment/etc & ofcourse education which the thread is about.Even if i had the best trader sitting next to me I realize now that i could not replicate his performance. But I realize that at the end, it is me and only me which deals at market interpretation & execution.

Anyways I feel the course is excellent and has real nuggets.. and thats what I feel when i went thru the contents. I think there is a moneyback guarantee which is good.

Well this was my 2c !!

take care & best
som



I didn't say there was no value in the course at all. My point is that they claim to be actual traders and I'm convinced that they're not.

Their course probably would be useful to people without much knowledge or experience but after you've been at this for a while and have taken several "courses" from people who don't actually know how to trade, you find more theory a bit tedious.

What they present probably could be considered the beginning of a complete market analysis method but the beginning is the easy part. Following through to the end where the "educators" make actual, verifiable trades and prove that their method has a legitimate edge over a large sample size of trades is the difficult part. This is where they (like SO MANY others) come up short.

You make some good points about there being a lot more than just the education part required for successful trading, but the education part is definitely the first and most important requirement right?

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  #41 (permalink)
 Profiler 
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
 
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nopac View Post
My point is that they claim to be actual traders and I'm convinced that they're not.

I'll take the other side of that bet with size if you are interested.

I dont want to get into a pissing match about this so i will just throw my opinion into the mix:

I have not taken their course but i have watched their preview and i always watch the videos awais posts on twitter. Its painfully ovbious he knows what he is doing and is a real pro. As for ziad, i dont really know much. i think he is prolly a great trader too but i dont think he explains stuff as well as awais from the little i have seen. he reminds me of myself when i was scalping some years ago and tried training my friend- i was really good at trading but man i sucked at explaining it. I know everyone and their mother wants someone to not only tell them exactly what price to buy but then actually click the mouse for them but real trading doesnt work that way. Real trading is wishy washy- do this if A happens but if B happens then do the exact opposite and if C happens do nothing. I would welcome any involvement of these guys with this site.

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  #42 (permalink)
 nopac 
los angeles
 
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Profiler View Post
I'll take the other side of that bet with size if you are interested.

I dont want to get into a pissing match about this so i will just throw my opinion into the mix:

I have not taken their course but i have watched their preview and i always watch the videos awais posts on twitter. Its painfully ovbious he knows what he is doing and is a real pro. As for ziad, i dont really know much. i think he is prolly a great trader too but i dont think he explains stuff as well as awais from the little i have seen. he reminds me of myself when i was scalping some years ago and tried training my friend- i was really good at trading but man i sucked at explaining it. I know everyone and their mother wants someone to not only tell them exactly what price to buy but then actually click the mouse for them but real trading doesnt work that way. Real trading is wishy washy- do this if A happens but if B happens then do the exact opposite and if C happens do nothing. I would welcome any involvement of these guys with this site.


They said they'd start posting their trade records months ago and never have. Why is that? If you take their course you'll figure out why. They're so vague about their "method" that they never actually commit to anything. In their weekly coaching session, it's the same thing. They only "critique" other people's trades, they never say anything about the trades that they've supposedly taken.

The first step in proving that they actually trade would be to show brokerage statements or platform generated blotters that show the trades they made. The next step would be to give detailed explanations showing exactly how and why their method had them taking and managing those trades. After several months of that, they'd have irrefutable proof that their method has an edge and that they (the people charging thousands of dollars for their course) have the ability to apply the method with real money. They haven't done anything like that (even though they said they would).

You might dismiss my criticisms as nothing more than me wanting someone to "tell me every move to make" etc, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I ask someone who's charging thousands of dollars to prove to me that they actually trade.

As far as their pre-market stuff, I've watched them for a month and it's more of the same. Mainly which levels to watch. Whether they actually take the trades in real time and whether a large sampling of those trades are profitable is where the rubber meets the road. That's the only thing that matters and they're clearly unwilling to offer any proof of that.

The vast majority of "educators" in this business are people who never figured out how to trade and turned to selling bogus training instead. Anybody who's been at this for more than a year knows this. I (like many others on this board) have wasted a lot of money on these idiots. These guys are absolutely CLASSIC charlatans and I feel compelled to tell people about it.

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  #43 (permalink)
 Profiler 
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
 
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nopac View Post
These guys are absolutely CLASSIC charlatans and I feel compelled to tell people about it.

You expressed your opinion as did I. We disagree. I agree to disagree. Carry on.

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  #44 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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Hey guys, sure everyone has their opinion & I personally respect every opinion. Well I thought I had owed my review to opentrader.com and hence did a review. I knew there was a thread on this all along. It was just pay back for me to review.

I personally got quite some stuff out of the program.. so i am happy Well as I said I had the program without paying so I always had the option of not signing up. I think I got a fair share out of it & hence got enrolled.

But I also realize there are real super smart people of there. I needed some help which I got. No regrets atleast from my end. Even a coin has 2 sides. And trading is a hard game. Something suiting one trader may not suit another. I am happy that the program was quite sticky with me.

I also rely heavily on volume & Tape stuff. Guess my handle tells some of it Some of the stuff i use may have a mention in some other threads and some on stealth for now . These are very complimentary to everything i have learnt and use thru my trading endeavors and opentrader was definitely one aspect of my learnings. I use opentrader stuff more from a structure and conceptual perspective and i think it is a good addition to everything else i use in my trading.

Lol...trading is a funny game and is my passion. I am just happy it is not easy

som

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  #45 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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@nopac, I agree that they should honor their commitment to trade a live account.

However, I am surprised that you are citing vagueness as having something to do with being a real trader. I have never been convinced that any vendor can actually trade, except for 2. Awaits and Ziad say things that, as someone who trades myself, convince me that they actually are traders. That being said, that's just my opinion and only live trade calls prove that someone took a trade, so that would be cool to see.

I have paid nothing to OpenTrader but I have learned quite a few things from their videos. In fact, I learned something from them about a year ago that I credit with being a major turning point in my trading. I don't recommend anyone to buy it without watching their free videos of course. They do not promise magic.

I think the attitude of the individual paying for trading education is as important to the equation as the education itself. So many people want answers, but we need to realize that there are no answers, in the way most people want them. There are only insights. The rest is completely up to us. With those expectations, especially with a group that makes no claim that trading is easy and also offers a money back guarantee, it's hard to imagine being too disappointed.

Nopac, what specifically convinces you that A & Z do not trade? I get a very different impression, as a trader myself.

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  #46 (permalink)
 Itsjustamarket 
Richmond,UK
 
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You can tell by the way they talk they don't make any money in the mkt. Being a trader and actually making money are two divergent things.

Just because you "learn" something from them, doesn't mean your not learning nonsense. There exists a series of logical solutions to a given problem, the mere absence of nonsense does not mean its the truth... ( think about that one)

Seriously drawing a load of lines on high volume and low volume points LOL. If people actually sat down and thought what trading really is.


Either that OR they can post some statements. IT IS THAT SIMPLE............

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  #47 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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My comments on opentrader was my experience which is very positive. It is not a recommendation or advice to anyone to take their courses. People need to do due diligence before doing anything & they offer money back. My views and comments only apply to me. My views on trading are totally different. It's my passion in life...i dont necessarily think about things to improve my trading in terms of money....but thats just me

But i agree if they have said they would show statements....then probably they should honor it. Am hoping that is the case & they would. I can understand some of these are easier said than done due to many formalities at the backend.

Anyways ...the thread was all about webinars from opentrader at futures.io (formerly BMT) & not necessarily taking any of their courses.
I think webinars are a no brainer if they happen on futures.io (formerly BMT). If you dont like the content...move on like all and any webinar on futures.io (formerly BMT).

take care & cheers !!
som

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  #48 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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Itsjustamarket View Post
You can tell by the way they talk they don't make any money in the mkt. Being a trader and actually making money are two divergent things.

Can you be more specific? How would they talk if they did make money? Would they even talk? Do you make money, and if so, how do you "talk"?


Itsjustamarket View Post
Just because you "learn" something from them, doesn't mean your not learning nonsense. There exists a series of logical solutions to a given problem, the mere absence of nonsense does not mean its the truth... ( think about that one)

Let me rephrase it: I learned something from watching their free videos, that I directly applied in my trading, which is now making a very big positive difference in my bottom line trading results (P/L). Note the references to "me" -- the same piece of information may not positively affect others in the same way it did me.

Your use of the word "truth" is interesting--please do tell, what is "truth" in trading? It seems you misunderstand trading, if you are convinced that there is a truth in it. You may state truths about markets, but as for trading, by definition there are really few, if any, truths.



Itsjustamarket View Post
Seriously drawing a load of lines on high volume and low volume points LOL. If people actually sat down and thought what trading really is.

Definitely, drawing lines on a chart is not trading. But that does not mean that understanding the significance of something that is not trading may not have in itself a very large impact on trading itself.


Itsjustamarket View Post
Either that OR they can post some statements. IT IS THAT SIMPLE............

You may assume that the absence of statements implies something about their profibility. And I have no counter that says "yes, they are actually trading." In fact, I tend to assume initially that no one is actually trading for real, particularly vendors; else, why would they be "vending"? So, it may surprise you to find that I am equally skeptical. Personally, I would never do business with any vendor who will not show through live trade calls that they are taking trades they are claiming. But hopefully you are not so gullible as to think that brokerage statements prove anything? Do you not realize how easy it is to play that game, to fake stuff like that?

I find the whole discussion a bit amusing really, because all that matters is whether information positively impacts someone's end results. Copying a "guru" or someone's trading methodology entirely--now that is a case where someone wants to know the bottom line results for sure! But traders who make money don't copy other traders entirely anyway; so who cares? Learning and growing is necessary in this ever-changing world, and if something you learn helps, who cares where it comes from?

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  #49 (permalink)
 Itsjustamarket 
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Because of your consider reply Josh. I will tell you the "truth"

1. When open trader started it was about being transparent, you could link to your broker show your pnl then sell your "eduction". there was a guy on there James Meehan he is still on twitter, Jtrade or something. There is a good post about it here.

OpenTrader.com | MBAGearhead Trading Journey

2. People that i know that actually make money BS aside use the most basic charts feel the flow and talk about people. NOT support, high volume node etc.

3. The only people i have ever seen in the public domain prove that they make money are don miller, this james guy and the NOBS guy. They all have a behavioural narrative and are more focused on the the flow of the mkt than technical BS.

4. If you want to learn about the "mkt" your time is much better spent reading philosophy ( seriously).


Plato's cave analysis - YouTube

5. If you can find people that talk like you about mkts on youtube your on the wrong path ! or forums for that matter ( should you be listening to me ?)


Anyway hope that helps we all suffer our ego ! Don't make me drink hemlock !! All the best

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  #50 (permalink)
 Bankrobber 
manchester
 
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It was opentrader that said they would post trading results months ago, so why haven't they?

Get a book on MP for $30, and stay clear of these guys... That my advice

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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Itsjustamarket View Post
1. When open trader started it was about being transparent, you could link to your broker show your pnl then sell your "eduction". there was a guy on there James Meehan he is still on twitter, Jtrade or something. There is a good post about it here.

OpenTrader.com | MBAGearhead Trading Journey

I remember open trader from a year or 2 back and as you say, it was essentially an online community where the site would connect to your broker and you could make your track record publicly available. You could setup a profile, chat with other traders, etc. I completely forgot about them until seeing this thread. What happened to that aspect of the site?

From what I can see the community / broker link portion doesn't exist anymore. Does anyone know what happened?

Diversification is the only free lunch
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  #52 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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Itsjustamarket View Post
2. People that i know that actually make money BS aside use the most basic charts feel the flow and talk about people. NOT support, high volume node etc.

3. The only people i have ever seen in the public domain prove that they make money are don miller, this james guy and the NOBS guy. They all have a behavioural narrative and are more focused on the the flow of the mkt than technical BS.

I don't know how many people you know, but I hope you realize just how small a sample size it is, in the big picture. And since we all tend to congregate with those who share our own beliefs, and since you believe for some reason that measuring volume at price contains no value, then it's no surprise that you have a very limited scope of different things people do to make money.

What I had a good laugh about was that Don Miller (who I have never seen proof of profitability, would love to see it) certainly uses basic technical concepts like support and resistance, which conflicts with what you said before. And the "No BS" guy, who I think is great, uses volume at price heavily (have you not seen his DOM?). He may not talk about "high volume nodes," but that's just terminology. He uses it only a day-to-day basis, whereas some people also use it on a larger scale.

In my personal trading I use volume at price extensively, in a way not dissimilar to what OpenTrader seems to teach. But that is just "the map" and says nothing about momentum swings in a market, feeling who's in control, and all the things that actually contribute to a successful trade. I don't know if the OpenTrader educational material addresses these--but these things are best learned by immersing oneself in a market, and can't just be learned in a course, not anyone's.

So in the end, I think you and I may have a very similar approach, with the exception that I have an understanding of market psychology and trader positioning rooted in an understanding of volume that you cannot have, if you ignore volume at price. Just as I choose to ignore certain perspectives on markets that do not jive with me, so you too may choose to ignore those that do not jive with you. But unfortunately, because you misunderstand this particular perspective, you dismiss it as nonsense. But if you would be open minded and allow your beliefs to be challenged, you might find that you see something that is completely congruent with how you likely view markets already, and it might actually enhance your understanding. What approach you take to the markets is irrelevant to me, as I don't care one bit about your trading; but hopefully you see that it is silly to dismiss market generated information as nonsense simply because 'you don't know anyone who trades that way.'

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  #53 (permalink)
 josh 
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Bankrobber View Post
It was opentrader that said they would post trading results months ago, so why haven't they?

Good question--maybe I will ask them and post their reply here.


Bankrobber View Post
Get a book on MP for $30, and stay clear of these guys... That my advice

I think it would definitely be a mistake for anyone to spend thousands of dollars on a training program without understanding the auction process first--so I agree, a good read of MoM coupled with real-time observation of this process would be the best start one could take. Plus, there is a LOT of free information out there already.

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  #54 (permalink)
 fourtiwinks 
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Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion. I wasn't aware of OpenTrader up till now. I tend to follow @josh's postings (among others), as he is a serious trader with thoughtful comments..

@jeffmum, I have read your earlier post (#9) and wonder if you could do a review on OpenTrader, based on your experience?

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  #55 (permalink)
 Surly 
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Itsjustamarket View Post
3. The only people i have ever seen in the public domain prove that they make money are don miller, this james guy and the NOBS guy. They all have a behavioural narrative and are more focused on the the flow of the mkt than technical BS.

Ha! Had to respond to your "don miller" comment. Yes, I believe he made money in 2008 but he hasn't made money since. I took his "course" - I can't recommend it. He's a scalper and never showed a profit during the course. He modified his "method" several times during the course based on very recent price action ("recency bias") and overall didn't impart much that couldn't be gleaned from reading free resources on the web. He's a well-meaning guy but he's going the road of educator-writer because he can't make money trading (that's my opinion). So while you are correct about Don method centering on reading the market's "flow" - it doesn't work for him excepting those extremely high volatility periods in 2008. Good luck chasing after his way of trading....

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  #56 (permalink)
 paps 
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Have seen Ziad share some of his past performance via brokerage statement for 2 years and all I can say is Wow!! & am happy to be associated with him and his training's and am lucky to have found him as my trading mentor.

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  #57 (permalink)
 mfbreakout 
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Surly View Post
Ha! Had to respond to your "don miller" comment. Yes, I believe he made money in 2008 but he hasn't made money since. I took his "course" - I can't recommend it. He's a scalper and never showed a profit during the course. He modified his "method" several times during the course based on very recent price action ("recency bias") and overall didn't impart much that couldn't be gleaned from reading free resources on the web. He's a well-meaning guy but he's going the road of educator-writer because he can't make money trading (that's my opinion). So while you are correct about Don method centering on reading the market's "flow" - it doesn't work for him excepting those extremely high volatility periods in 2008. Good luck chasing after his way of trading....



I had similar experience. He scalped 3-10 ticks on massive position size. The year ( i do not remember the year) he made

$1 million i calculated number of contracts he traded. it turn out to be 10 ticks or something like that.

I was desperate for some help , so took his so called Jelly Fish program from his first training class. He basically

recorded that session and was selling for $1400 or so for students who could not afford full fee of upcoming class.

That recording session is all i needed to know to move on.

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  #58 (permalink)
 nopac 
los angeles
 
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paps View Post
Have seen Ziad share some of his past performance via brokerage statement for 2 years and all I can say is Wow!! & am happy to be associated with him and his training's and am lucky to have found him as my trading mentor.

Did anybody record the webinar? Did you make any screen shots? I'd really like to believe that those guys are for real but I want to see some proof.

Thanks

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  #59 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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hi...no i don't have screen shots as don't want to get into copyright issues.

Anyways.... for me they are real...since i also have met them personally.

Thought i should post my views...& hence did.

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  #60 (permalink)
 Deucalion 
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In June 2009, Mr Masri wrote, what I considered one of the most profound posts about trading well that I have ever read. Based on that alone, it is a decent bet that this man understood the markets in a manner that pros do. And was able to leverage that observation into actionable plan.

The article is here.......

E-Mini Player: EMini S&P 500 Futures Trading Education and Analysis: Learning to Become a Successful Trader

I have followed his and Awais' public offerings since then, and was in EminiPlayer's live room a while aback for about a month or so (and was using his levels, and his action plans). I watched him launch Open Trader and the pro training program for @USD4000 (which is today at 50% discount a for special). I sat through the webinar yesterday.

Mr Masri talked about taking prices at "good" levels without confirmation, and about edges. All good talk for a new trader learning the ropes. His pro training program, like any other, is about learning to trade with discipline and with relentless application of an unsophisticated methodology. That is his edge. His edge is mental, in his knowledge that he can out wait retail traders, trust his levels and allow his method to take risk off the table (sort of like Private Banker's core-satellite trade management).

Unfortunately, I do not agree that one has to pay 4000USD or 2000USD for learning to trade with discipline. If discipline and trading at the market's edges is the core of your approach, that is a process that is free. I have no doubt some people who have have not cut their teeth, blown a few accounts, learn the hard way about the sanctity of preserving capital - for those people, this is a program that may be worth enrolling in.

I always ask myself about the value of a program, or tuition or training being worth it - if I could recommend if to my brother, or sister, or son or daughter. I would not, unless, the program can prove that the edge can indeed be robustly transferred to others (and the proof must be shown in a transparent manner, not just for the trader that devised it but of the students he is teaching). Most educators hide behind the CFTC disclaimers to escape accountability. it is a cloak and an escape hatch. The industry hides facts because it can. The retail trade and his money are fodder. You must ask yourself - what if his skill is not transferable, what then?

The edge must be immediately apparent, substantial, tangible, repeatable and transferable. Other wise, you must cast upon it with extreme prejudice.

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  #61 (permalink)
 fourtiwinks 
Singapore
 
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@paps and @Deucalion,

Thanks very much for sharing your views and review.

Quite curious why jeffmum would not provide any review thou.

@Big Mike, any updated plans to invite them for a webinar on futures.io (formerly BMT)?


Big Mike View Post
FWIW, I've spoken with Awais by phone. I plan to work with them in the coming weeks/months in terms of webinars and other educational material.

As you guys take the course, please do provide feedback. Also if you email those questions, feel free to post their answers for the benefit of others.

Mike


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  #62 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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fourtiwinks View Post
@Big Mike, any updated plans to invite them for a webinar on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Not at this time.

Mike

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  #63 (permalink)
 Itsjustamarket 
Richmond,UK
 
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Seriously

This is what open trader was !

OpenTrader.com Offers Social Network for Traders - YouTube

OH Wait Ziad and Awais are now everything the once stood against LOL

Sure they might be nice guys although they are flogging snake oil and do not make money trading.

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  #64 (permalink)
 josh 
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Itsjustamarket View Post
Sure they might be nice guys although they are flogging snake oil and do not make money trading.

Maybe you're right--but it sure would be nice to back that up with facts, evidence, or proof. Vendors rarely if ever back up their own claims with facts, evidence, or proof, but still, an accusation is an accusation, and you made it. Burden of proof of your own claim is on you.

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  #65 (permalink)
 cunparis 
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In April OpenTrader sent out this email:



I was really interested because we would all get to see just how successful they are. But they never followed through. So much for transparency. After this I lost all interest in them.

We can debate whether they really make money or not but there is no proof and so it's a bit pointless to debate it (although some may consider it entertaining, but I'd consider it a waste of time).

Personally my rule is this: I only listen to people who have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're really trading and really making money. Only a few people have qualified. And those are the ones I listen to. The rest I ignore because I simply don't have time for it. I find I do much better this way.

I will say Awais is very good at his homework, making levels, and analyzing the context of the market. I've seen him make some amazing calls, like warning of a big sell-off a day before it happens, etc. It's impressive. Is this enough for him to make money trading? I don't know. I haven't seen proof that he has and so unfortunately he falls into the group that I ignore.

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  #66 (permalink)
 nopac 
los angeles
 
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josh View Post
Maybe you're right--but it sure would be nice to back that up with facts, evidence, or proof. Vendors rarely if ever back up their own claims with facts, evidence, or proof, but still, an accusation is an accusation, and you made it. Burden of proof of your own claim is on you.

The burden of proof most certainly does NOT fall on him. He isn't the one asking people to send him $4,000 for a course. The burden of proof is on the vendor and so far we haven't seen anything from those guys to prove that they're anything BUT snake oil salesmen. Being "nice" doesn't suffice when someone is asking for that much money.

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  #67 (permalink)
 josh 
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nopac View Post
The burden of proof most certainly does NOT fall on him. He isn't the one asking people to send him $4,000 for a course. The burden of proof is on the vendor and so far we haven't seen anything from those guys to prove that they're anything BUT snake oil salesmen. Being "nice" doesn't suffice when someone is asking for that much money.

I wrote a long reply but I'll simplify greatly: he isn't asking for money. He is making an accusation and (presumably) asking people to believe it, without providing any evidence of its truthfulness. If you are gullible enough to believe an internet guy who makes claims like that, then you should have no trouble taking OT at their word, as they similarly are making a claim without proof. My view is, "I need to see proof before I believe you." The other view says "I declare that you are lying, but even though I am chastising you for lack of proof, I also have none for my claim, so please take me at my word."

That being said, I am very disappointed that OpenTrader has not followed through as promised. One possibility (probability) is that they are not making money, so they are not providing data. But I am not so condemnatory as to make that claim.

My guess is that either way, those seeking such signs of truth are wasting their time. Who really cares if they make money? It's not as if this is a cookie-cutter thing and you can mind-numbingly follow them and achieve the same results. Time would be better spent studying, or working on improving something about oneself, than this.

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 nopac 
los angeles
 
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josh View Post
... The other view says "I declare that you are lying, but even though I am chastising you for lack of proof, I also have none for my claim, so please take me at my word."

That view might seem a bit harsh, and maybe it is in OTHER fields. Trading "education" on the other hand, is the most corrupt den of thieves I've ever witnessed in my entire life. After pursuing this for 5 years now, I can say without any hesitation that 99 out of 100 "vendors" are failed traders who are trying another way to make money in "the markets."

Considering how many bogus "educators" there are in this field, asking one to prove that they know how to make money trading IS NOT UNREASONABLE. Providing proof would be the easiest thing in the world for someone who's actually making money. If you don't see it that way then I would say that you're unbelievably naive and a prime candidate for any of the thousands of scammers out there. Good luck to you.

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 Itsjustamarket 
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ok ok ok !

The fact is I don't know if they make money or not BUT "MY" best guess is that they don't.

Should you believe me, no, but you shouldn't believe them either.

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 josh 
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nopac View Post
Considering how many bogus "educators" there are in this field, asking one to prove that they know how to make money trading IS NOT UNREASONABLE. Providing proof would be the easiest thing in the world for someone who's actually making money. If you don't see it that way then I would say that you're unbelievably naive and a prime candidate for any of the thousands of scammers out there. Good luck to you.

Agree on all counts.


Itsjustamarket View Post
ok ok ok !

The fact is I don't know if they make money or not BUT "MY" best guess is that they don't.

Should you believe me, no, but you shouldn't believe them either.

Bingo, this was my point.

The OT guys are easy to contact--anyone who cares enough should absolutely email them and ask them why they have not set up their public account as they said they would.

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 Itsjustamarket 
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josh View Post
Agree on all counts.



Bingo, this was my point.

The OT guys are easy to contact--anyone who cares enough should absolutely email them and ask them why they have not set up their public account as they said they would.

The trouble with doing that is they will give you some BS answer........ as opposed to being honest and saying "because we can't make money"

If they were good at the game ....

1. They would be busy playing it and not selling it.

2. If they were selling it, it would be the easiest thing in the world to show they are successful.

Just like a few guys used to on the original open trader !!!!

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  #72 (permalink)
 SPTicker 
Montgomery TX USA
 
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I followed a link to an Opentrader webinar on November 7, 2013. One of the first things Ziad did was to show his trading account going back to when his account was worth about 48K. I don't recall the date but it was around 2003 or 2004. I have no way of verifying that the trade record shown is real but nevertheless, a trade record/brokerage statement was displayed during the webinar. I believe that an audited trade record was also mentioned that would cover the more recent trade performance.

The offer during the webinar was to pay up front, or pay in five installments of $397 per month, the total was the same so I opted for the five installments. The offer included a 30 day money-back guarantee. I took a look at the program and it might work for some people but I didn't think it was something i could benefit from. In a nutshell, the program recommends that a lot of time be spent studying the markets through charts for the setups they provide. it would not be fair for me to comment on the program because it would be from my perspective only. I can say that the concepts are sound, again in my opinion. Almost every program has some validity in the right context and that is exactly what they actually preach, "everything is contextual", who can argue with that? So, if you can read the market in the right context, you can make a lot of money. Again, who can argue with that?

I have asked them to cancel my membership and refund my first installment, as offered when I signed up. I have not seen my refund yet but fully expect to receive it. If not, I would be out the $397 I already paid but fully intend to notify my credit card to decline making additional payments.

I want to end this post by simply saying that any program that offers a money back guarantee (within 30 days for this particular one) is worth checking out. All one has to waste is some of his or her time checking the program out. About this particular one, if I don't get my refund, i would consider it worth the $397 I have already paid. If I do get my refund, it was worth the time I spent looking at it just to remind me of concepts I already knew. It's good to do that at times in my opinion.

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  #73 (permalink)
 SPTicker 
Montgomery TX USA
 
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For the record, to follow up on my last post, my $397 was refunded without any questions or attempts to convince me to stay on; in other words, no pressure.

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  #74 (permalink)
 paps 
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Hey guys....BTW Ziad just shared a video on the OpenTrader blog proving over $64,000 in profits in just 2 days of trading on Jan 23rd and 24th. Just thought I'd share for the benefit of anyone who had doubts that these guys are legit. Here's the link to the video: $64,691 Profit In 2 days Trading the E-mini S&P Futures | OpenTrader Pro Trading Blog

cheers
s

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  #75 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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paps View Post
Hey guys....BTW Ziad just shared a video on the OpenTrader blog proving over $64,000 in profits in just 2 days of trading on Jan 23rd and 24th. Just thought I'd share for the benefit of anyone who had doubts that these guys are legit. Here's the link to the video: $64,691 Profit In 2 days Trading the E-mini S&P Futures | OpenTrader Pro Trading Blog

cheers
s

Didn't watch video yet to see if live and that represented all there trades or not. But how does 2 day worth of trading show anything?? They need to provide a long verified history of profitable trading showing all the important stats such as draw downs and etc. They may have lost $100K the 2 days before that. Hech can they even show they can pass a combine?? Finding trade rooms that show any real meaningful stats is virtually impossible. That should tell you something.

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  #76 (permalink)
 patidar 
Pergatory
 
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damn someone found another strat or indi or trading room that makes tons of money. My golly,why share it with the rest of the World?

Go to the Cayman islands and put up a 20 foot in diameter dish that gives you top of the line data and let the bots trade away while you go for a swim or hangout with the Czech playmates.

The funny thing is when the DOW plummets 300 plus pts, every Tom Dick and Harry and Susan made a buck.
I guess you were not around in 08-09,where this was a almost daily occurance.

I personally after years at this, DONT ever fall for claims of money made daily or YTD unless its
verified 2-3 times by outside sources.

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 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
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cunparis View Post
In April OpenTrader sent out this email:



I was really interested because we would all get to see just how successful they are. But they never followed through. So much for transparency. After this I lost all interest in them.

We can debate whether they really make money or not but there is no proof and so it's a bit pointless to debate it (although some may consider it entertaining, but I'd consider it a waste of time).

Personally my rule is this: I only listen to people who have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're really trading and really making money. Only a few people have qualified. And those are the ones I listen to. The rest I ignore because I simply don't have time for it. I find I do much better this way.

I will say Awais is very good at his homework, making levels, and analyzing the context of the market. I've seen him make some amazing calls, like warning of a big sell-off a day before it happens, etc. It's impressive. Is this enough for him to make money trading? I don't know. I haven't seen proof that he has and so unfortunately he falls into the group that I ignore.


Hello, I've taken the Opentrader course and have found it very helpful. I also follow Awais's daily trade plan and levels.

I can honestly say that these guys make money. Today Ziad posted a video from thursdays and fridays trading showing his actual statements from Interactivebrokers real account(not sim, I know because I have IB and know what sim acct numbers look like). On this account(which he calls their "practice" account) he made over 64,000 in thursdays and fridays trading on a 200,000 account.

He explains how he did it and how in the past he would never have had the discipline to hold until the RTH close on days like these.

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  #78 (permalink)
 patidar 
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'Today Ziad posted a video from thursdays and fridays trading showing his actual statements from Interactivebrokers real account(not sim, I know because I have IB and know what sim acct numbers look like). On this account(which he calls their "practice" account) he made over 64,000 in thursdays and fridays trading on a 200,000 account.'



dude.

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  #79 (permalink)
 cunparis 
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It took him almost 1 year to get lucky so he could post his video and results. If he was consistently making money then why didn't he post an example in April last year?

Sorry but I'm not convinced. I've seen the open trader videos. I found them to be very general and non-specific. That's not to say they wouldn't be useful to someone new, but its not enough to make money. As with all the others they give you some general info and hold back the secret stuff so they can reveal it later and the cycle repeats.

Also the big discount for a limited time only.. That's perfect timing so they get people signed up before anyone realizes that 2 days if results doesn't prove anything.

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  #80 (permalink)
 BeachTrader 
San Diego
 
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What style of trading is OpenTrader? Scalping futures? Swing Trading Stocks? Options? The $64K in one day seems incredibly lucky, but TBH I have not watched the video yet.

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  #81 (permalink)
 RickW00716 
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BeachTrader View Post
What style of trading is OpenTrader? Scalping futures? Swing Trading Stocks? Options? The $64K in one day seems incredibly lucky, but TBH I have not watched the video yet.

using market profile(daily and also composite profiles) along with support/resistance.

If you watch the video he explains why he doesn't post trading videos all thetime.

Awais, however, posts videos of his morning trade plan and a nightly video recap of his trading day where he shows his entries/exits(most of them) and explains why he took or didn't take them.

He also has losers too and he shows what happened there.

eminiplayer.net is his site (I don't get anything for mentioning it)

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  #82 (permalink)
 jefe 
Snoqualmie, WA
 
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BeachTrader View Post
What style of trading is OpenTrader? Scalping futures? Swing Trading Stocks? Options? The $64K in one day seems incredibly lucky, but TBH I have not watched the video yet.

These guys always shoot for at least 2:1 RR but more often are targeting 3 or 4:1 RR.
You can review these past videos to see how Awais prepares for the day.
https://bitly.com/bundles/eminiplayer/2
Watch the videos and then pull up a chart and see how each day went and how well his levels performed. He also tweets quite often what is happening.
For example: When there is a trend day in progress he will post that he will not be buying/selling against the trend.
I've been with opentrader for almost a year and have been helped a great deal...it took a while for the concepts to sink in but it's now paying off for me.

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 tradermark2009 
Concord, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts and NT7
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: Mini's and CL
 
Posts: 230 since Oct 2009
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64K on a 200K account is trading well beyond industry risk/reward per trade. I guess everyone can strike oil the thier backyard 1 time. That is irresponsible to say the least. Good luck...you'll need it.


patidar View Post
'Today Ziad posted a video from thursdays and fridays trading showing his actual statements from Interactivebrokers real account(not sim, I know because I have IB and know what sim acct numbers look like). On this account(which he calls their "practice" account) he made over 64,000 in thursdays and fridays trading on a 200,000 account.'



dude.


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  #84 (permalink)
 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
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It's a real money acct. separate from the money they trade for clients and their own personal accts.

In the video he says they use it for practice...I'm not exactly sure what practice means though.

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 nqcruiser 
Cape Town, South Africa
 
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opentrader methodology, as jos pointed out earlier, isnt much different from ft71 volume at price work. he charges 6k now for his course. i saw update where a new trader make 1000k in one month, trading 20-30 contracts. i think opentrader lacks transparency. they run the emini tradingroom that doesnt provide any proof of performance. my verdict: snakeoil.

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  #86 (permalink)
nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
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My experience with OpenTrader is just outstanding. I can recommend it to every developing trader. For me it was eye-opener. Everything has changed since that for me.

Training reflects the style which Ziad and Awais both trade. It is based on reading market contextually using principles of market auction (price action & volume profiles), using internals such as TICK and Advance/Decline lines, doing top-down analysis, using ability to read market day-by-day and always put everything into context. It takes time and work to embrace this style, to integrate that principles and to learn trading it properly. Nor Ziad or Awais claim that it is easy or you can do nothing and make money immediately. No, this requires hard work and dedication. But it is approach that makes a lot of sense to you, that gives you freedom in trading. To see what is content of their training take a tour on their website, there is brief descripiton of every section and of each lesson.

Together with Awais' EminiPlayer website, where he shares his trade plan with S/R zones + daily recap video/review, you can really boost your learning curve. Awais is super precise in his levels (which you will shortly learn to spot yourself after taking lessons from ProTraining) and also he is excellent in his trade plan based on context reading. That is area I still have to work on. Learning all of this gives you the edge to trade almost every day profitably and to take advantage of every market condition.

I am aware of many good traders out there, which won't find value in it, because they learn it themselves. But in my case I would never make it without Ziad and Awais. No matter what someone, who doesn't know them and who don't follow/speak to them on daily basis, says, these guys are amazing traders, fully transparent to me, they are very generous in answering all questions and most of all they are great people.

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  #87 (permalink)
 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
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nojgic View Post
My experience with OpenTrader is just outstanding. I can recommend it to every developing trader. For me it was eye-opener. Everything has changed since that for me.

Training reflects the style which Ziad and Awais both trade. It is based on reading market contextually using principles of market auction (price action & volume profiles), using internals such as TICK and Advance/Decline lines, doing top-down analysis, using ability to read market day-by-day and always put everything into context. It takes time and work to embrace this style, to integrate that principles and to learn trading it properly. Nor Ziad or Awais claim that it is easy or you can do nothing and make money immediately. No, this requires hard work and dedication. But it is approach that makes a lot of sense to you, that gives you freedom in trading. To see what is content of their training take a tour on their website, there is brief descripiton of every section and of each lesson.

Together with Awais' EminiPlayer website, where he shares his trade plan with S/R zones + daily recap video/review, you can really boost your learning curve. Awais is super precise in his levels (which you will shortly learn to spot yourself after taking lessons from ProTraining) and also he is excellent in his trade plan based on context reading. That is area I still have to work on. Learning all of this gives you the edge to trade almost every day profitably and to take advantage of every market condition.

I am aware of many good traders out there, which won't find value in it, because they learn it themselves. But in my case I would never make it without Ziad and Awais. No matter what someone, who doesn't know them and who don't follow/speak to them on daily basis, says, these guys are amazing traders, fully transparent to me, they are very generous in answering all questions and most of all they are great people.

Fully Transparent. How do you know they are amazing traders? Do you just take their word on it. When I tried their trading room awhile back they did not take live trades and they never showed their trades. Sure they show a great winner now and then as every other salesperson selling trade training software. But a single winner proves nothing. they may have had 10 stop outs before that winner. It is the overall results that count. I do not understand why anyone would invest money with someone that does not show their trades and actual proof they can trade profitable. Yea , I know in this business that is taboo to ask for. But until buyers of these products demand transparency and proof they can trade profitable; well what can I say except a fool and his money are soon departed.

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dougrkyle
indianapolis in usa
 
 
Posts: 16 since Aug 2013
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O come on guys... Eminiplayer posts each evening his entries and exits for the day. They are always prefect trades at the highs and lows of the trading range.... His trading should be netting him millions a year or his revenue from eminiplayer/opentrader.com 300-400k a year... You decide.

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nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
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rwbil View Post
Fully Transparent. How do you know they are amazing traders? Do you just take their word on it. When I tried their trading room awhile back they did not take live trades and they never showed their trades. Sure they show a great winner now and then as every other salesperson selling trade training software. But a single winner proves nothing. they may have had 10 stop outs before that winner. It is the overall results that count. I do not understand why anyone would invest money with someone that does not show their trades and actual proof they can trade profitable. Yea , I know in this business that is taboo to ask for. But until buyers of these products demand transparency and proof they can trade profitable; well what can I say except a fool and his money are soon departed.

I wrote my personal experience with them, my own opinion on these guys, based on more than year watching and listening to them every day. My post is not here to bring proofs or to convince you or others here in forum. I accept your opinion, if you don't trust them, why you even bother with them? They are useless to you. But they are not to me and they can help many others, who can read my post and your post and make their own decision about them.
I don't need too see Awais or Ziad statements, how would that help me? I can see that their level of expertise is based on real-time successful trading and they don't need to persuade anyone, they help those who want and that is it.

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nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
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dougrkyle View Post
O come on guys... Eminiplayer posts each evening his entries and exits for the day. They are always prefect trades at the highs and lows of the trading range.... His trading should be netting him millions a year or his revenue from eminiplayer/opentrader.com 300-400k a year... You decide.

Eminiplayer highlights all possible setups for the day for educational purpose while he trades only some of them. He mentions this quite often, also admits loosing trades. However, those recap/review posts aren't there to show his trading, but to go over what happened, why and what lessons are there. If you can take advantage of it and make money, why you have a need to see his results?

Instead of being doubtful and hateful think about what you are doing for others to help them? So far it seems you do nothing, probably you have nothing to help with. While I am helping those who need it by giving them good reference on guys who are truly helper to trading community. Adios.

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 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Broker: IB, Kinetics
Trading: E6, ES and CL
 
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nojgic View Post
I wrote my personal experience with them, my own opinion on these guys, based on more than year watching and listening to them every day. My post is not here to bring proofs or to convince you or others here in forum. I accept your opinion, if you don't trust them, why you even bother with them? They are useless to you. But they are not to me and they can help many others, who can read my post and your post and make their own decision about them.
I don't need too see Awais or Ziad statements, how would that help me? I can see that their level of expertise is based on real-time successful trading and they don't need to persuade anyone, they help those who want and that is it.

I will answer your question. Most people spend thousands on useless trading software and trading rooms. I know because I have been there. There is even a thread here about how much have you wasted on training software.

When you say you do not need to see proof, it makes me really wonder how different people think so differently. Dean Handley wrote an article in future magazine where he went into over 400 trading rooms and according to him 95% lose money and do not post factual results of their trading. And from my personal experience I can say I find that very true. He then showed trading rooms that posted their trades and kept accurate logs. You can search for the article on the internet.

For the live of me I do not understand why you would trust some ones word they can trade profitable? Just think about it. If I was a truly successful trader; 1st I would not have a trading room; but letís say I did. Wouldnít I want to show how great my performance was so I could charge a fortune. Heck I not only would show my results I would get an independent auditor to verify how profitable I was so I could charge $10,000 a person or more. Would you invest in a mutual fund with no real proof they make money??? Yet traders do this all the time with trading rooms and trading software. It just reminds be of Bernie Madoff. People just take his word without doing any due diligence.


If you have watched them trade for over a year and you are trading LIVE money profitable following them I would say you are truly a rare case. And if you are not doing that it is just all smoke and mirrors.

I have been in trading rooms where the followers have spent $1000s and cannot trade profitable and yet after spending so much money they cannot face up to the fact they waste their money and instead just think it will work someday.

For Godís sake wake up and smell the coffee and demand trading rooms show real proof they trade profitable. I cannot believe making such a request is viewed as a sin in this business. If you are not going to do that then at least demand a free trial and track their trades and see if they trade profitable and show an accurate accounting of their trades.

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 Big Mike 
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rwbil View Post
Dean Handley wrote an article in future magazine where he went into over 400 trading rooms and according to him 95% lose money and do not post factual results of their trading. And from my personal experience I can say I find that very true. He then showed trading rooms that posted their trades and kept accurate logs. You can search for the article on the internet.

Not to go off topic, but Dean is banned here for self promotion. If you research more deeply you might possibly reach the conclusion that he was benefiting from his affiliation or association or recommendations of said trading rooms.

Mike

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 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
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Trading: E6, ES and CL
 
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Big Mike View Post
Not to go off topic, but Dean is banned here for self promotion. If you research more deeply you might possibly reach the conclusion that he was benefiting from his affiliation or association or recommendations of said trading rooms.

Mike

Sadly everyone in this business seems to come with baggage. In fact one of the best traders I know of took criticism on this forum and I heard (true or not) he trained you. And I am aware of the statements against Dean, but I think his article is completely accurate and except for the Tas... trading room he was associated with I think his conclusions where legit. I had been in many of the trading rooms he banned and what he said was right on and I went into some of the ones he recommended and as he stated the ones he recommended that I saw showed their trades entry exits and stops and their post where accurate. And unless a trading room is willing to do that I say Caveat emptor.

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  #94 (permalink)
nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
Posts: 22 since Feb 2013
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rwbil View Post
I will answer your question. Most people spend thousands on useless trading software and trading rooms. I know because I have been there. There is even a thread here about how much have you wasted on training software.

When you say you do not need to see proof, it makes me really wonder how different people think so differently. Dean Handley wrote an article in future magazine where he went into over 400 trading rooms and according to him 95% lose money and do not post factual results of their trading. And from my personal experience I can say I find that very true. He then showed trading rooms that posted their trades and kept accurate logs. You can search for the article on the internet.

For the live of me I do not understand why you would trust some ones word they can trade profitable? Just think about it. If I was a truly successful trader; 1st I would not have a trading room; but letís say I did. Wouldnít I want to show how great my performance was so I could charge a fortune. Heck I not only would show my results I would get an independent auditor to verify how profitable I was so I could charge $10,000 a person or more. Would you invest in a mutual fund with no real proof they make money??? Yet traders do this all the time with trading rooms and trading software. It just reminds be of Bernie Madoff. People just take his word without doing any due diligence.


If you have watched them trade for over a year and you are trading LIVE money profitable following them I would say you are truly a rare case. And if you are not doing that it is just all smoke and mirrors.

I have been in trading rooms where the followers have spent $1000s and cannot trade profitable and yet after spending so much money they cannot face up to the fact they waste their money and instead just think it will work someday.

For Godís sake wake up and smell the coffee and demand trading rooms show real proof they trade profitable. I cannot believe making such a request is viewed as a sin in this business. If you are not going to do that then at least demand a free trial and track their trades and see if they trade profitable and show an accurate accounting of their trades.

Well, this post has a quality at least, thanks for it. Instead of posting negative comments without real experience with their services. I understand where you are pointing and that it is based on your own negative experience with all those lying vendors.

The difference between us is I didn't waste a penny on trading education. Before I purchase something I do a research, I spend my money wisely. Manily becuase I have limited resources and I am wise consumer. I know US culture and your consumption-oriented lifestyle. People don't think before they buy and then they get burnt. Those are who you are trying to protect. And that is good, I appreciate your effort. But in the end it's their money and their decisions.

What I am doing here is I only recommend service that has been extremely useful to me. Is that bad? Is it forbidden to appreciate someone's work here in the forum? Who says I do need a proof to claim my satisfaction? Do you envy me that I am satisfied with OpenTrader and EminiPlayer without having their real results? If so, I am sorry I hope you have same luck one day as I have.

This thread is here to share real experience with OpenTrader services and it serves to help other traders to make their own decision whether to buy or not to buy their Training. As I said, I am OpenTrader and EminiPlayer subscriber and I found their services extremely helpful.

Would love to hear opinions of long-term subscribers as well. Those, who tried and didn't get proof or whatever they were looking for, their opinions have low value imo.

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 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
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rwbil View Post
Sadly everyone in this business seems to come with baggage. In fact one of the best traders I know of took criticism on this forum and I heard (true or not) he trained you.

I have been trading for over 18 years, no one on the forum "trained me". Anyone arrogant enough to claim such a thing most certainly is wrong. That said, naturally I have benefited from the forum and many of its participants exchanging ideas.

I've also refined my trading several times over the last 7 years or so, this is mainly because prior to this period I was almost exclusively a swing trader and then I got caught up in scalping futures about the time the forum started. It took me a few years before I went back to longer time frames, anyone can follow my posts and see this including any of the truly embarrassing things and mistakes I made during the period of "scalping".

I went into great detail about my struggles and was open/honest/transparent in this 3 hour webinar:

https://futures.io/webinars/mar19_2011/afternoon_with_big_mike/

Anyway, we're off-topic so better to continue this in a more appropriate thread if you want to. I just wanted to respond to set the record straight.

One such thread might be:


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  #96 (permalink)
 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
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Trading: E6, ES and CL
 
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nojgic View Post
Well, this post has a quality at least, thanks for it. Instead of posting negative comments without real experience with their services. I understand where you are pointing and that it is based on your own negative experience with all those lying vendors.

The difference between us is I didn't waste a penny on trading education. Before I purchase something I do a research, I spend my money wisely. Manily becuase I have limited resources and I am wise consumer. I know US culture and your consumption-oriented lifestyle. People don't think before they buy and then they get burnt. Those are who you are trying to protect. And that is good, I appreciate your effort. But in the end it's their money and their decisions.

What I am doing here is I only recommend service that has been extremely useful to me. Is that bad? Is it forbidden to appreciate someone's work here in the forum? Who says I do need a proof to claim my satisfaction? Do you envy me that I am satisfied with OpenTrader and EminiPlayer without having their real results? If so, I am sorry I hope you have same luck one day as I have.

This thread is here to share real experience with OpenTrader services and it serves to help other traders to make their own decision whether to buy or not to buy their Training. As I said, I am OpenTrader and EminiPlayer subscriber and I found their services extremely helpful.

Would love to hear opinions of long-term subscribers as well. Those, who tried and didn't get proof or whatever they were looking for, their opinions have low value imo.

It amazes me how 2 people can think so different. If you are having success with them then I am happy for you, but that is not what I hear. Here is what I think when I read your comments. Emini Player charges $297/Month. You have been with them over 1 year. So you have spent $4000 or more, yet the strongest statement you can make is they have been helpful to me. I hope after another year and another $3600 you can make a stronger statement than that. Call me an ahole, but maybe a statement like:

I have been with emini for over a year now and my actual live account has grown 20% with their help so I am very happy with what I have been learning. Even though unverified that might mean at least something.

I do not know what there live trading room is like now, but when I was in their live trading room over a year ago, they did not take a single live trade; they only gave general advice. And worst they kept saying how they were going to start showing their live trades, yet they never did. That should probably tell you something. I stick by my statement; any vendor who is not willing to show all their trades and accurately post them, stay away or a fool and his money will soon be departed.

As far as I am concerned there is no point in back and forth between us so I am done responding.

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  #97 (permalink)
nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
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rwbil View Post
It amazes me how 2 people can think so different. If you are having success with them then I am happy for you, but that is not what I hear. Here is what I think when I read your comments. Emini Player charges $297/Month. You have been with them over 1 year. So you have spent $4000 or more, yet the strongest statement you can make is they have been helpful to me. I hope after another year and another $3600 you can make a stronger statement than that. Call me an ahole, but maybe a statement like:

I have been with emini for over a year now and my actual live account has grown 20% with their help so I am very happy with what I have been learning. Even though unverified that might mean at least something.

I do not know what there live trading room is like now, but when I was in their live trading room over a year ago, they did not take a single live trade; they only gave general advice. And worst they kept saying how they were going to start showing their live trades, yet they never did. That should probably tell you something. I stick by my statement; any vendor who is not willing to show all their trades and accurately post them, stay away or a fool and his money will soon be departed.

As far as I am concerned there is no point in back and forth between us so I am done responding.

Well, I am glad you're done, because so far you didn't add any value to this thread and only be super off-topic.

I don't know what the trading room looks like now or in past as well. I don't need to be in trading room to have someone making decision instead of myself. From what I heard from you, you were in hundreds of trading rooms, you spent so much money and yet you're not profitable trader as you mentioned before. So you go from one approach to another looking for holy grail, looking for something easy that will make you money and yet you didn't find it, that's why you put a blaim on many good vendors out there.

Think what you think I only pay $50/month for daily trade plans and recaps. I told you I am wise consumer. And that is really small price for what I get from it. And that is everything I am going to tell you, hope you will find verified vendors who will convince you they are making money and if you will be perfect monkey and do exactly what they do then you will make money. Good luck on this path. I am done with you.

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  #98 (permalink)
 RickW00716 
Richmond Virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
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nojgic View Post
Well, I am glad you're done, because so far you didn't add any value to this thread and only be super off-topic.

I don't know what the trading room looks like now or in past as well. I don't need to be in trading room to have someone making decision instead of myself. From what I heard from you, you were in hundreds of trading rooms, you spent so much money and yet you're not profitable trader as you mentioned before. So you go from one approach to another looking for holy grail, looking for something easy that will make you money and yet you didn't find it, that's why you put a blaim on many good vendors out there.

Think what you think I only pay $50/month for daily trade plans and recaps. I told you I am wise consumer. And that is really small price for what I get from it. And that is everything I am going to tell you, hope you will find verified vendors who will convince you they are making money and if you will be perfect monkey and do exactly what they do then you will make money. Good luck on this path. I am done with you.

Ziad has actually shown his trading statements(wins and losses). I took the course and got a lot out of it and spent some time in Awais's trading room. The only issue I had with the room is that Awais wasn't running it and the guy who was didn't take the trades that Awais did druing the day.

Overall the education was worth it to me

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 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
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nojgic View Post
Well, I am glad you're done, because so far you didn't add any value to this thread and only be super off-topic.

I don't know what the trading room looks like now or in past as well. I don't need to be in trading room to have someone making decision instead of myself. From what I heard from you, you were in hundreds of trading rooms, you spent so much money and yet you're not profitable trader as you mentioned before. So you go from one approach to another looking for holy grail, looking for something easy that will make you money and yet you didn't find it, that's why you put a blaim on many good vendors out there.

Think what you think I only pay $50/month for daily trade plans and recaps. I told you I am wise consumer. And that is really small price for what I get from it. And that is everything I am going to tell you, hope you will find verified vendors who will convince you they are making money and if you will be perfect monkey and do exactly what they do then you will make money. Good luck on this path. I am done with you.

I have to respond because your statement is 99% fact free. I never said I was in hundreds of trading rooms. I said Dean Handley wrote an article and that he checked out over 400 trading rooms. For me I have only been in a few trading rooms usually on free trials. And that was when I started to learn day trading and was naive.

2nd I never stated I was or was not a profitable trader and I never mentioned I was looking for the holy grail more less looking for an easy path. You might try and state some actual facts next time. But as someone that has been in a few trading rooms including the one you mentioned; something apparently you have not even done; my advice is not to spend any money on a trading room where they do not show and accurately post their trades. That is it. I wish someone had told me that when I was young and naive

I could write a book on trading and most of it would deal with the psychology aspects.

Instead of your fact less statement, I will tell you my experience in trading. The Holy Grail to trading for me is too focus on the instrument you are trading and spend 1000s of hours trading and back testing. Trading is the toughest business there is and in the end you have to find your own path. And even though you have not said whether you are profitable or not I will state that I am a very successful long term investor who started to day trade over a year ago and after I started to focus on the instrument I was trading and spent 1000s of hours I am finally slightly profitable. I am not making a killing but I believe I am on the path. I took one CL trade today as shown below. But that shows no proof I am profitable, but it is a heck of a lot more evidence than you have shown.

2014-04-29_0912 - rwbil's library

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nojgic
Jindřichův Hradec, Czech Republic
 
 
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rwbil View Post
I have to respond because your statement is 99% fact free. I never said I was in hundreds of trading rooms. I said Dean Handley wrote an article and that he checked out over 400 trading rooms. For me I have only been in a few trading rooms usually on free trials. And that was when I started to learn day trading and was naive.

2nd I never stated I was or was not a profitable trader and I never mentioned I was looking for the holy grail more less looking for an easy path. You might try and state some actual facts next time. But as someone that has been in a few trading rooms including the one you mentioned; something apparently you have not even done; my advice is not to spend any money on a trading room where they do not show and accurately post their trades. That is it. I wish someone had told me that when I was young and naive

I could write a book on trading and most of it would deal with the psychology aspects.

Instead of your fact less statement, I will tell you my experience in trading. The Holy Grail to trading for me is too focus on the instrument you are trading and spend 1000s of hours trading and back testing. Trading is the toughest business there is and in the end you have to find your own path. And even though you have not said whether you are profitable or not I will state that I am a very successful long term investor who started to day trade over a year ago and after I started to focus on the instrument I was trading and spent 1000s of hours I am finally slightly profitable. I am not making a killing but I believe I am on the path. I took one CL trade today as shown below. But that shows no proof I am profitable, but it is a heck of a lot more evidence than you have shown.

2014-04-29_0912 - rwbil's library

Alright, one last post. First of all I didn't start this, I just shared my experience with their services in proper thread and got attacked by you in sense like how dare I to praise somebody who isn't transparent. Second, I repeatedly said that I am trying to help those who need it by giving them real testimonial based on positive experience and that I don't need you to accept my opinion. Third, I did acknowledge your effort several times, tried to understand your point of view, while you still keep saying same things and turning the topic far away from its origin.

I agree with your third paragraph. There is a hard work behind no matter who you follow. Awais and Ziad keep saying that a lot. They don't promise anything, actually they giving out their know-how which I am very thankful for and wanted to share that with others. That was it and even after long conversation with you I don't see a reason for your reaction no matter what your experience is. Past experience can't be used to every new situation. Each one is uniqe.

Thanks for your trade. I don't have reason to suspect you of anything, whatever you say about your trading I do consider it as a truth. I am also developing trader, trading ES. I am not loosing, but also I am not making what I'd like to make. For me it is only matter of time before I get where I want. This fact, has nothing to do with quality of OT/EP services though. It's only my issue how long does it take to me. There are certainly traders who are making quicker progress. I beg you to stop putting your anger where it does not belong. Be cautious to vendors out there, but don't dishonour those who deserve the opposite.

For all other readers, please excuse this pointless off-topic discussion. At least the lesson we can take from it is that there are many useless services where you waste your money, but there are also very good one which can help you a lot. Even though they may not be transparent, we shouldn't put them in the same bag with the rest. OpenTrader/EminiPlayer is one of those examples.

Happy trading to you all, even you rwbil, we all need it.

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