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Al Brooks Trading Course (www.brookstradingcourse.com)


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Al Brooks Trading Course (www.brookstradingcourse.com)

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  #101 (permalink)
emini2000
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Stray Dog View Post
Juvenile insistence on seeing proof! Did I read you correctly? You think that a common minimum standard of asking to see that the person you are paying for a service is capable of delivering a reliable, tested and safe product is juvenile? The reason that we don't see this in this industry is because of attitudes like yours. What is juvenile or so outrageous about a request or expectation that you can see that a vendor can trade their product profitably? No wonder this industry is so full of crooks.

Exactly.

I've been around quite a while and from everything I've seen I no longer give any trading vendor the benefit of the doubt. As far as I'm concerned they are all a scam unless they can prove otherwise. Some here just haven't been burned enough apparently.

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  #102 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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I was just browsing around, looking to get caught up, and came upon this discussion of Brooks.

It looks like there is a controversy now because a web site that specializes in debunking trading claims has focused on Brooks, and asked him to prove his trading with statements. Apparently Brooks has declined. This is taken as evidence of faking.

Many have weighed in, pro and con. I'm going to try to not do that, although this will seem like a defense of Brooks by some, and I assure you that it is not. It has to do with how you can know that someone is legit or not.

Short answer: you can't.

You can try it out for yourself, putting up just the minimum amount of money possible, preferably not very much into any one person. Also, the more someone is asking you to pay, the less likely it is that you should pay them. Also, everyone has an agenda. Just seeming to be right is a powerful motivation, so it is wise to take everything you do not validate for yourself with a grain or two of salt, no matter what it is. That includes both claims by vendors of systems or authors of books, and reviews by those who doubt them.

With that said, here is my cent and a half, starting with this post:


dk27 View Post
Broker statements will make you believe.

Uh, no. Not to be critical of @dk27 or anyone else, but you would not believe all the excellent fakery that has been attempted even in this forum, which is carefully supervised to block that sort of thing. I recall a guy who posted, every single day, a very, very convincing video of his trades, taken apparently in real time, during the first half-hour or so. He was astonishingly successful. I think it went on for about a month, before the sheer magnitude of his success started to raise skepticism. As I recall, finally someone noticed that a supposed trade had not appeared on the live DOM, meaning it never really happened, and that was the beginning of the end of the whole thing. Then suddenly everyone noticed that there are ways to fake anything, and he either left in a huff or got banned, I don't remember which. He was, by the way, offering to teach anyone how to do it for a modest amount (a few thousand, as I recall.)

The point of this story is that anything can be faked, nothing can be believed as "evidence," other than you putting it in play yourself, and making sure it works, or not, for you.

If it does, you've got your proof. If it doesn't, maybe there was something good there, and maybe not, but it wasn't the right thing for you, at the time.


tturner86 View Post
There is no correlation between a positive broker statement and whether you can successfully trade their system. They could train and teach you everything they know but you will never be able to execute it like they do.

Stop. Do the work, create a system that you believe in and then trade it.

Richard Dennis, who made hundreds of millions trading commodities back when a hundred million was real money, famously said that he could lay out his methods in the Wall Street Journal, and no one would follow them. He was probably right, and not because of the cynicism it implies, but for a simpler reason: you will always take whatever you get from another person and rework it until it fits you. So something that worked for them may be a dead end for you. Or something that someone has tried and discarded may be just the ticket for you.

This is not true only in trading, by the way.

It does mean, don't follow vendors, don't expect anyone to give you the Way to Trade, and use just what you can validate for yourself.

A last point just on Brooks: I don't know and I don't care what he thought he could or couldn't do about publishing his results under the rules. Very likely, he just didn't want to. Maybe that is because he is a big fake. Maybe he just has a misconception about the regulations. Maybe he values his personal financial privacy (no one is ever going to be fool enough to ask me for my results , but they're not going to get them, either.) Maybe it was a way to tell the guy to stuff it.

If you saw his genuine, audited statement, and if you absolutely believed it, and if you bought his course because of it, you would be making a mistake. His results are not a good reason for you doing anything.

Again, I'm not taking a pro- or anti- Brooks position. I'm taking a position against the whole idea of finding out how to trade by following anyone else. And sure, you can learn from someone else, and sure, you do have to be careful about all the fakes out there. What to do? Try things yourself, and be careful about spending much money on them.

Sorry I went on so long, especially since it's only worth about a cent and a half anyway.... But I think all these controversies are essentially valueless, as is the search for the Answer from someone else.

Bob.

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  #103 (permalink)
mangolassi
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bobwest View Post
I was just browsing around, looking to get caught up, and came upon this discussion of Brooks.

It looks like there is a controversy now because a web site that specializes in debunking trading claims has focused on Brooks, and asked him to prove his trading with statements. Apparently Brooks has declined. This is taken as evidence of faking.

Many have weighed in, pro and con. I'm going to try to not do that, although this will seem like a defense of Brooks by some, and I assure you that it is not. It has to do with how you can know that someone is legit or not.

Short answer: you can't.

You can try it out for yourself, putting up just the minimum amount of money possible, preferably not very much into any one person. Also, the more someone is asking you to pay, the less likely it is that you should pay them. Also, everyone has an agenda. Just seeming to be right is a powerful motivation, so it is wise to take everything you do not validate for yourself with a grain or two of salt, no matter what it is. That includes both claims by vendors of systems or authors of books, and reviews by those who doubt them.

With that said, here is my cent and a half, starting with this post:



Uh, no. Not to be critical of @dk27 or anyone else, but you would not believe all the excellent fakery that has been attempted even in this forum, which is carefully supervised to block that sort of thing. I recall a guy who posted, every single day, a very, very convincing video of his trades, taken apparently in real time, during the first half-hour or so. He was astonishingly successful. I think it went on for about a month, before the sheer magnitude of his success started to raise skepticism. As I recall, finally someone noticed that a supposed trade had not appeared on the live DOM, meaning it never really happened, and that was the beginning of the end of the whole thing. Then suddenly everyone noticed that there are ways to fake anything, and he either left in a huff or got banned, I don't remember which. He was, by the way, offering to teach anyone how to do it for a modest amount (a few thousand, as I recall.)

The point of this story is that anything can be faked, nothing can be believed as "evidence," other than you putting it in play yourself, and making sure it works, or not, for you.

If it does, you've got your proof. If it doesn't, maybe there was something good there, and maybe not, but it wasn't the right thing for you, at the time.



Richard Dennis, who made hundreds of millions trading commodities back when a hundred million was real money, famously said that he could lay out his methods in the Wall Street Journal, and no one would follow them. He was probably right, and not because of the cynicism it implies, but for a simpler reason: you will always take whatever you get from another person and rework it until it fits you. So something that worked for them may be a dead end for you. Or something that someone has tried and discarded may be just the ticket for you.

This is not true only in trading, by the way.

It does mean, don't follow vendors, don't expect anyone to give you the Way to Trade, and use just what you can validate for yourself.

A last point just on Brooks: I don't know and I don't care what he thought he could or couldn't do about publishing his results under the rules. Very likely, he just didn't want to. Maybe that is because he is a big fake. Maybe he just has a misconception about the regulations. Maybe he values his personal financial privacy (no one is ever going to be fool enough to ask me for my results , but they're not going to get them, either.) Maybe it was a way to tell the guy to stuff it.

If you saw his genuine, audited statement, and if you absolutely believed it, and if you bought his course because of it, you would be making a mistake. His results are not a good reason for you doing anything.

Again, I'm not taking a pro- or anti- Brooks position. I'm taking a position against the whole idea of finding out how to trade by following anyone else. And sure, you can learn from someone else, and sure, you do have to be careful about all the fakes out there. What to do? Try things yourself, and be careful about spending much money on them.

Sorry I went on so long, especially since it's only worth about a cent and a half anyway.... But I think all these controversies are essentially valueless, as is the search for the Answer from someone else.

Bob.


^ This. Awesome post. End discussion now please.

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  #104 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
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bobwest View Post
I was just browsing around, looking to get caught up, and came upon this discussion of Brooks.

It looks like there is a controversy now because a web site that specializes in debunking trading claims has focused on Brooks, and asked him to prove his trading with statements. Apparently Brooks has declined. This is taken as evidence of faking.

Many have weighed in, pro and con. I'm going to try to not do that, although this will seem like a defense of Brooks by some, and I assure you that it is not. It has to do with how you can know that someone is legit or not.

Short answer: you can't.

You can try it out for yourself, putting up just the minimum amount of money possible, preferably not very much into any one person. Also, the more someone is asking you to pay, the less likely it is that you should pay them. Also, everyone has an agenda. Just seeming to be right is a powerful motivation, so it is wise to take everything you do not validate for yourself with a grain or two of salt, no matter what it is. That includes both claims by vendors of systems or authors of books, and reviews by those who doubt them.

With that said, here is my cent and a half, starting with this post:



Uh, no. Not to be critical of @dk27 or anyone else, but you would not believe all the excellent fakery that has been attempted even in this forum, which is carefully supervised to block that sort of thing. I recall a guy who posted, every single day, a very, very convincing video of his trades, taken apparently in real time, during the first half-hour or so. He was astonishingly successful. I think it went on for about a month, before the sheer magnitude of his success started to raise skepticism. As I recall, finally someone noticed that a supposed trade had not appeared on the live DOM, meaning it never really happened, and that was the beginning of the end of the whole thing. Then suddenly everyone noticed that there are ways to fake anything, and he either left in a huff or got banned, I don't remember which. He was, by the way, offering to teach anyone how to do it for a modest amount (a few thousand, as I recall.)

The point of this story is that anything can be faked, nothing can be believed as "evidence," other than you putting it in play yourself, and making sure it works, or not, for you.

If it does, you've got your proof. If it doesn't, maybe there was something good there, and maybe not, but it wasn't the right thing for you, at the time.



Richard Dennis, who made hundreds of millions trading commodities back when a hundred million was real money, famously said that he could lay out his methods in the Wall Street Journal, and no one would follow them. He was probably right, and not because of the cynicism it implies, but for a simpler reason: you will always take whatever you get from another person and rework it until it fits you. So something that worked for them may be a dead end for you. Or something that someone has tried and discarded may be just the ticket for you.

This is not true only in trading, by the way.

It does mean, don't follow vendors, don't expect anyone to give you the Way to Trade, and use just what you can validate for yourself.

A last point just on Brooks: I don't know and I don't care what he thought he could or couldn't do about publishing his results under the rules. Very likely, he just didn't want to. Maybe that is because he is a big fake. Maybe he just has a misconception about the regulations. Maybe he values his personal financial privacy (no one is ever going to be fool enough to ask me for my results , but they're not going to get them, either.) Maybe it was a way to tell the guy to stuff it.

If you saw his genuine, audited statement, and if you absolutely believed it, and if you bought his course because of it, you would be making a mistake. His results are not a good reason for you doing anything.

Again, I'm not taking a pro- or anti- Brooks position. I'm taking a position against the whole idea of finding out how to trade by following anyone else. And sure, you can learn from someone else, and sure, you do have to be careful about all the fakes out there. What to do? Try things yourself, and be careful about spending much money on them.

Sorry I went on so long, especially since it's only worth about a cent and a half anyway.... But I think all these controversies are essentially valueless, as is the search for the Answer from someone else.

Bob.

I do believe the original basis is being somewhat misconstrued. Aside from sensationalism over at Trading Schools where many people are fixated on Al Brook’s trading record, I believe the majority of people just want to know that he trades a live account with real money.

As I have said, I would be disappointed if I found out that he doesn’t. I have read and re-read his books (as have many others on FIO) and I liked to think we were all in this together every single day in the live market. Heck, I have even said to myself on occasion, “I wonder what Al would be saying right about now”.

If the continual rhetoric on FIO is to stop chasing vendors (I am hearing this more and more, over and over), then no vendors should be allowed to present, no matter how popular outside or inside of FIO they are perceived to be. Ultimately the vendor always has something to sell and human nature says we will chase after it, especially if the presentation is slick and there is a feint hint of getting an edge and/or being more profitable.

So isn’t FIO perpetuating this behaviour by allowing vendors to present? Isn’t this giving the vendor a platform for future sales? I am seasoned enough now to be selective, but of course that was a very different story in the past.

As I mentioned previously, there is no being neutral on this subject with respect to how transparent a vendor should or needs to be. When I first became a member back in 2012 I was approached privately by Felton Trading about using their services that had a very impressive trading record. They were eventually banned from FIO (or BMT as it was then) and have since been exposed admitting they don’t and have never traded in a live market, despite them suggesting otherwise for years.

So this is one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about this subject. I respectfully agree and disagree with you all at the same time!

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  #105 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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JonnyBoy View Post
I do believe the original basis is being somewhat misconstrued. Aside from sensationalism over at Trading Schools where many people are fixated on Al Brook’s trading record, I believe the majority of people just want to know that he trades a live account with real money.

As I have said, I would be disappointed if I found out that he doesn’t. I have read and re-read his books (as have many others on FIO) and I liked to think we were all in this together every single day in the live market.

I would be disappointed, too.


JonnyBoy View Post
If the continual rhetoric on FIO is to stop chasing vendors (I am hearing this more and more, over and over), then no vendors should be allowed to present, no matter how popular outside or inside of FIO they are perceived to be. Ultimately the vendor always has something to sell and human nature says we will chase after it, especially if the presentation is slick and there is a feint hint of getting an edge and/or being more profitable.

So isn’t FIO perpetuating this behaviour by allowing vendors to present? Isn’t this giving the vendor a platform for future sales? I am seasoned enough now to be selective, but of course that was a very different story in the past.

I'm not able to speak for FIO as a whole, nor about how @Big Mike decides who can come on and who can't. I assume he has made a value judgment about their plausibility.

Let's skip the trading vendors for a moment. The head of NinjaTrader was on here just a while ago. He was obviously selling something: NT8. Not everyone likes what he was selling. I know at least one guy (ahem) who has had some serious problems with what he was selling. I think it's fine that he came on. Also, it's fine that he is held accountable by the members for his product working as he promised. I think Brooks and all the rest should be held accountable, too. Did I say otherwise? If I did, I un-say it now. They should be held accountable, too.


JonnyBoy View Post
As I mentioned previously, there is no being neutral on this subject with respect to how transparent a vendor should or needs to be. When I first became a member back in 2012 I was approached privately by Felton Trading about using their services that had a very impressive trading record. They were eventually banned from FIO (or BMT as it was then) and have since been exposed admitting they don’t and have never traded in a live market, despite them suggesting otherwise for years.

I don't know that I was (or am) being all that neutral. I think I made my caution about and disapproval of vendor faking pretty clear. I also don't at all doubt that many/most are just out to get your money, another point I think I made.


JonnyBoy View Post
So this is one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about this subject. I respectfully agree and disagree with you all at the same time!

I agree and disagree with you at the same time, too.

I do understand your points.

My only point is: don't go looking for someone else to tell you how to do it. Nothing else is meant. I don't know anything about this whole thing beyond that.

Bob.

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  #106 (permalink)
 stoicbuddha 
Seattle, WA
 
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JonnyBoy View Post
I do believe the original basis is being somewhat misconstrued. Aside from sensationalism over at Trading Schools where many people are fixated on Al Brook’s trading record, I believe the majority of people just want to know that he trades a live account with real money.

As I have said, I would be disappointed if I found out that he doesn’t. I have read and re-read his books (as have many others on FIO) and I liked to think we were all in this together every single day in the live market. Heck, I have even said to myself on occasion, “I wonder what Al would be saying right about now”.

If the continual rhetoric on FIO is to stop chasing vendors (I am hearing this more and more, over and over), then no vendors should be allowed to present, no matter how popular outside or inside of FIO they are perceived to be. Ultimately the vendor always has something to sell and human nature says we will chase after it, especially if the presentation is slick and there is a feint hint of getting an edge and/or being more profitable.

So isn’t FIO perpetuating this behaviour by allowing vendors to present? Isn’t this giving the vendor a platform for future sales? I am seasoned enough now to be selective, but of course that was a very different story in the past.

As I mentioned previously, there is no being neutral on this subject with respect to how transparent a vendor should or needs to be. When I first became a member back in 2012 I was approached privately by Felton Trading about using their services that had a very impressive trading record. They were eventually banned from FIO (or BMT as it was then) and have since been exposed admitting they don’t and have never traded in a live market, despite them suggesting otherwise for years.

So this is one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about this subject. I respectfully agree and disagree with you all at the same time!

It seems to me the experience with "Felton Trading" saying they traded with real money would reinforce the belief that it doesn't matter if Al Brooks says he is trading with a live account. How would you know if it's the truth? I liken it to cheese. I'm lactose intolerant so when I see cheese in Whole Foods, I just walk past it. That doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to buy cheese, it just isn't right for me. I think the point a few of the other posters are making is this, he could be selling a beautiful lie or the truth. The real question is, can I use this to get my trading where I want it to be?

my 2 cents.

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  #107 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
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stoicbuddha View Post
It seems to me the experience with "Felton Trading" saying they traded with real money would reinforce the belief that it doesn't matter if Al Brooks says he is trading with a live account. How would you know if it's the truth? I liken it to cheese. I'm lactose intolerant so when I see cheese in Whole Foods, I just walk past it. That doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to buy cheese, it just isn't right for me. I think the point a few of the other posters are making is this, he could be selling a beautiful lie or the truth. The real question is, can I use this to get my trading where I want it to be?

my 2 cents.

Knowing the truth of whether Al Brooks trades live or not will probably never be known unless he chooses to make it so.

My main gripe is that I would be disappointed to find that out that he didn’t, irrespective of what I or others perceive to be the value of his Work. The story I was sold was that he is a live trader just like you and me.

I thought it was a simple answer to a simple question.

This thread is far too consuming now. Time for a break.

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  #108 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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I think @bobwest and @JonnyBoy make some good points, but I think JonnyBoy has brought up a very good argument about vendors on FIO.

Full disclosure as to where I stand. I have not even once thought about purchasing any education tools from a vendor, the thought has not even crossed my mind at all. I have absolutely 0 interest in paying for someone to teach me how they trade, and that's a personal belief as I trust myself to know what I need better than some random person on the internet selling 'one size fits all' education.
On the other hand, I believe in transparency and honesty, and I do think that if you claim to be X, and you are selling something based on that, you should have to back it up. Not because it matters to me, but because there are a lot of suckers in this field, and there should be some sort of protection for them.

Now that we have that out of the way, I think there's a difference between the CEO of NinjaTrader coming in here and selling you NinjaTrader, because his intentions are clear. It doesn't matter whether or not he trades, or is a successful trader, and I have no idea if he claims to be. He is selling you a platform, not education based on his experience.

However, if someone like Al Brooks as a trader is allowed to come in, I think he should be able to at least defend his claim that he trades what he sells with real money. Does he have to get an audit done and post all of this for the public to see? That I don't think he needs to do. For one, you can fake anything, and I understand privacy is important. So again I'll bring up FundSeeder. If you don't know about FundSeeder, do some quick research on FIO and you'll find out that they connect directly to your broker and verify your trades. From what I understand it is anonymous, and no personal information is shown. You won't be able to find 'Al Brooks'' profile without knowing his unique #. But Al could share that number with one of the moderators of FIO to prove that he trades.

If he doesn't trade, that's perfectly fine, it doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to come into FIO as a vendor. However, he should have to claim himself to be a pundit, and not a trader.

I think @Big Mike and his team have weeded out obvious scammers from presenting on FIO, and I am not saying things need to be revolutionized, but I would like to propose a small evolution.

I would ask him and the FIO team to possibly consider adding somewhere in the webinar, whether they are a pundit or a trader. If they claim to be a trader then they need to prove one way or another to the FIO team that they trade. If they are a pundit that's fine, but let's make it clear so that the suckers don't get suckered into buying something thinking that someone is a trader.

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  #109 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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JonnyBoy View Post
Knowing the truth of whether Al Brooks trades live or not will probably never be known unless he chooses to make it so.

My main gripe is that I would be disappointed to find that out that he didn’t, irrespective of what I or others perceive to be the value of his Work. The story I was sold was that he is a live trader just like you and me.

I thought it was a simple answer to a simple question.

This thread is far too consuming now. Time for a break.

Agreed.

Bob.

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  #110 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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@Big Mike can explain more on how webinars are selected.

But here is my take. There are two types of webinars educational and promotional. Educational webinars are just that, education. The vendors are selected based on their reputation and popularity with FIO members. This is one reason we see scalping webinars even though Mike disagrees with the topic. If a vendor advertises during a webinar they are usually not brought back. If the community doesn't like the webinar then they are not brought back.

The second is promotional and those are only allowed to site sponsors. To become a site sponsor is an ordeal. Mike does his due diligence and vets the sponsors well. Again he can speak more to how that is done. But just let me say this, Mike is very picky on who is allowed to sponsor the site. He could have done like other sites and just taken the money from anyone, but he hasn't.

So I am going to leave it with this, if you have issues with the presenters of Webinars please post in the webinar thread or PM Mike.

Now on to Al, I studied all of his books and the course. I took that mixed it with Market and Volume profile via FuturesTrader71, added in some custom RSI and VWAP stuff and create my own trading style. Al provided a base understanding of how the market works. It is a bit myopic, but it was a start. Having talked to him personally I think he is a great guy. I agree and hope his story is true. But ultimately I don't care, it will have no bearing on me, my trading, and my future.

I think people look for turnkey trading. I am not saying anyone posting here is, but that just in general it seems that people want it handed to them. After studying Al's stuff I took 1 major setup and manually back tested it. Looking at 5 min charts all the way back to 2008. Bar for bar, day for day. What looked like a Major Trend Reversal, where it worked and were it failed. Marking thousands of instances. I did this for other setups. I created my trading plan 2 sided, what to do if a setup works and what to do if the setup fails. The failing side gave me ideas on what kind of risk management was needed, but it also gave me ideas on where I might be able to reverse if I was wrong.

And earlier @trendisyourfriend I wasn't talking about trading what you believe. I was talking about trading a system that you believe it. There is a difference, if you have done the testing and have found an edge you will have more confidence in trading than if you trade a system that someone 'told' you had an edge. As others said about broker statements seeing is believing. Well actually testing a strategy and seeing it work is worth more than a broker statement from someone else.

There is no right way to trade, but there are plenty of wrong ways. To me the number one wrong way is to trade halfcocked and by the seat of your pants.

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  #111 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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tturner86 View Post

I think people look for turnkey trading. I am not saying anyone posting here is, but that just in general it seems that people want it handed to them. After studying Al's stuff I took 1 major setup and manually back tested it. Looking at 5 min charts all the way back to 2008. Bar for bar, day for day. What looked like a Major Trend Reversal, where it worked and were it failed. Marking thousands of instances. I did this for other setups. I created my trading plan 2 sided, what to do if a setup works and what to do if the setup fails. The failing side gave me ideas on what kind of risk management was needed, but it also gave me ideas on where I might be able to reverse if I was wrong.

...
There is no right way to trade, but there are plenty of wrong ways. To me the number one wrong way is to trade halfcocked and by the seat of your pants.

There's a lot just in this little piece about really learning the in's and out's of a method. This is what makes it yours, no matter where you initially got the ideas from. A vendor can give you a useful start, but that's about it.

(Edited down from my usual long-windedness .)

Bob.

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 dk27 
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Nobody disputes need to do the work and make the method your one, but I am convinced it makes sense to spend time only if it comes from the valid source, i.e. the vendor can prove it works for him (broker statements) or demonstrate it live in front of audience or if in case of software provide free trial.
Years ago I purchased thestrategylab course for 450$ and spent half a year testing it, each and every day, bar by bar. Quite quickly I realized that setups as they described are not happening, either one bar is missing to complete setup or some other rules are not met (tens of them), while I saw the Master actively trading in the room and posting thousands of $ profits a day, I didn't dare to question him, who I am to do that, I probably need to work more. Half a year later I got sick, that was forced break from all this and as I see now opportunity to let it go. So either I am not clever enough, didn't put enough effort, method is "not for me" or perhaps it's elaborated scam to fool you with hundreds of rules. If back then me or someone else would question the Master whether he can actually trade according his own rules?
I believe many can relate to this story and I don't care about 450$, but the time wasted to validate nonsense.

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 dstrader 
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dk27 View Post
Nobody disputes need to do the work and make the method your one, but I am convinced it makes sense to spend time only if it comes from the valid source, i.e. the vendor can prove it works for him (broker statements) or demonstrate it live in front of audience or if in case of software provide free trial.
Years ago I purchased thestrategylab course for 450$ and spent half a year testing it, each and every day, bar by bar. Quite quickly I realized that setups as they described are not happening, either one bar is missing to complete setup or some other rules are not met (tens of them), while I saw the Master actively trading in the room and posting thousands of $ profits a day, I didn't dare to question him, who I am to do that, I probably need to work more. Half a year later I got sick, that was forced break from all this and as I see now opportunity to let it go. So either I am not clever enough, didn't put enough effort, method is "not for me" or perhaps it's elaborated scam to fool you with hundreds of rules. If back then me or someone else would question the Master whether he can actually trade according his own rules?
I believe many can relate to this story and I don't care about 450$, but the time wasted to validate nonsense.

We all have been in your shoes when we started. Some spent much more than $450 and thousands of hours wasted. I did.

I don't think there is anything wrong in requesting proof that the seller of a system or a room prove that he really trades the system for real (live account). 99% of these businesses are scams and I still didn't find the 1% that are honest, but if someone did, please let me know...

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 bobwest 
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dk27 View Post
Nobody disputes need to do the work and make the method your one, but I am convinced it makes sense to spend time only if it comes from the valid source, i.e. the vendor can prove it works for him (broker statements) or demonstrate it live in front of audience or if in case of software provide free trial.


dstrader View Post
We all have been in your shoes when we started. Some spent much more than $450 and thousands of hours wasted. I did.

I don't think there is anything wrong in requesting proof that the seller of a system or a room prove that he really trades the system for real (live account). 99% of these businesses are scams and I still didn't find the 1% that are honest, but if someone did, please let me know...

All true enough. Most of these things are worthless scams and the vendors are fakes.

I wish we could count on statements or whatever -- but it's important to realize that if they are faking the system, they will fake the statement too. How hard is that, in the world of computers? Plus, you can't trust the BS in "trading" rooms, as many reports by unhappy FIO members make clear. Simply put, they can and will just fake whatever they need to in order to get your money.

Hence the advice to not spend much or any money on them. If someone wants to sell me a book, he may be able to. After I have read it and tried it out, I may, or may not, be willing to spring for a little more. But anyone wanting very much is usually not to be trusted.

There is nothing wrong with wanting proof that they are legitimate. The problem is in getting it.

Bob.

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 dstrader 
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bobwest View Post
All true enough. Most of these things are worthless scams and the vendors are fakes.

I wish we could count on statements or whatever -- but it's important to realize that if they are faking the system, they will fake the statement too. How hard is that, in the world of computers? Plus, you can't trust the BS in "trading" rooms, as many reports by unhappy FIO members make clear. Simply put, they can and will just fake whatever they need to in order to get your money.

Hence the advice to not spend much or any money on them. If someone wants to sell me a book, he may be able to. After I have read it and tried it out, I may, or may not, be willing to spring for a little more. But anyone wanting very much is usually not to be trusted.

There is nothing wrong with wanting proof that they are legitimate. The problem is in getting it.

Bob.

Yeah... There are all kinds of tricks they can do. I remember a guy called Chuck Hughes that loves to show statements, but people that sign for his service never gets the same results because they are snapshots of when the trades were good (or a selection of good trades during certain periods).

But an honest trading room (oxymoron?) could call the trades and show the statements of the trades for example. Also, if they are faking statements they could be liable. Right now, all these rooms are behind the 'curtain' of 'education' and the regular 'futures disclaimer'. Most rooms can't prove they were successful today, last week, last month or any period of time for that matter.
It would just make it more difficult. We need some level of transparency (until we get some regulators looking into this) or the scams will continue to multiply. Some of them, change their names, web site names, and just continue getting people's money. When this is going to stop and who is going to stop them?

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 New Level 
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I bought Brooks course because he implied that he was a profitable trader, he said he was a successful eye doctor and he quit because he could make more money trading and have more time for tennis. He said that he made very little of the materials that he sold which made it sound like he was just doing it to give back something to the trading community. Yes, I was new and naive, as are many coming into the market everyday, is this the price of admission? Does part of learning to trade necessarily entail following and paying until you learn better or give up? From many experienced members comments it seems that vendors are mostly a rabbit hole and if time is our most valuable resource then we should be doing everything we can to help novices not waste it.

edit: Should have been a question.... should we help novices not waste time or am I thinking about this in the wrong way?

Also, I'm not saying any of Brooks claims are true or false, but as a noob I just figured no one could make claims that weren't true in such a performance based endeavor, lol.

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 tturner86 
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New Level View Post

edit: Should have been a question.... should we help novices not waste time or am I thinking about this in the wrong way?

We can stand at the end of the cliff and scream all we want at them, but most will not listen. Unfortunately most have to experience a fall to learn from it. But that doesn't mean that some of us won't still try to tell others.

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 Babool 
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dk27 View Post
Nobody disputes need to do the work and make the method your one, but I am convinced it makes sense to spend time only if it comes from the valid source, i.e. the vendor can prove it works for him (broker statements) or demonstrate it live in front of audience or if in case of software provide free trial.
Years ago I purchased thestrategylab course for 450$ and spent half a year testing it, each and every day, bar by bar. Quite quickly I realized that setups as they described are not happening, either one bar is missing to complete setup or some other rules are not met (tens of them), while I saw the Master actively trading in the room and posting thousands of $ profits a day, I didn't dare to question him, who I am to do that, I probably need to work more. Half a year later I got sick, that was forced break from all this and as I see now opportunity to let it go. So either I am not clever enough, didn't put enough effort, method is "not for me" or perhaps it's elaborated scam to fool you with hundreds of rules. If back then me or someone else would question the Master whether he can actually trade according his own rules?
I believe many can relate to this story and I don't care about 450$, but the time wasted to validate nonsense.

Unfortunately, validating it for your self IS the only way to see if the system is viable. Many vendors will say anything, or produce anything on their laptops including fake brokerage statements in order to get your money. I have spent well over 10k on my trading education since 1998. I would guess that most of these sources could not or would not have sent me statements if I asked...but I learned a little from all of them and some of them a lot to this very day. Heck, if you can get one decent set-up that you can backtest and add to your trading plan it's well worth it. I would not get so hung up on proof....you can learn a lot from knowing what does not work as well. Also, keep in mind...even if you get proof like brokerage statements (that are real) that proof will not give you any indication that you will be able to learn the method and duplicate the results from the materials provided. Many years ago (1992) I sent a guy 200 bucks for a course in stock trading. He provided detailed statements showing an impressive record. When I received his materials they were so simple that they basically amounted to him saying buy low and sell high....say what ?? Sad but true.

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 Babool 
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Over at Trading Schools, Emmett has reviewed Al Brooks. The bottom line is actually quite sad if it turns out to be true.

http://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/al-brooks-trading/

We all know Emmett has a shady past and he will freely admit that himself. That isn't the issue here and his past has nothing to do with his discovery about Al.

I find it extremely troubling that Al Brooks wouldn't release any verifiable proof that he actually trades live for a living. We should remember Al has historically stated (website, books, webinars, trading courses etc.) that he is a full time trader. As if we didn't know that, right?

Al did give a reason why he wouldn't release them, but that doesn't make any sense especially when you are defending your reputation. So what does that say?

Perhaps I don't have all of the facts, but if this is true, it has blown a giant hole of disappointed through somebody that I essentially "trusted". I really thought that he traded for a living. Am I wrong in thinking that he did? Was I the only person that didn't know? Or does he? The truth would be nice.

If he doesn't trade live then fine! But everything in the past number of years has pointed to the fact he does.

Sure, I have moved on from Al's methods, but I can't help feel like a little wind has been taken from my sails.

Am I offside here bringing this up? I know Al has many fans and Emmett has many enemies, but it seemed like such a simple option for Al to prove himself - and he chose not to take it. I just don't understand.

Al is selling something that now costs $249 for 36 hours of recorded content. If you get one trading idea, one set-up that you can backtest and add to your trading plan..it's worth it. If you get nothing or it does not work at all you get a greater insight on how not to trade. I went to a tony robbins 3 day seminar years ago...I think it was 2k. He offered no proof to me or anybody beforehand that I would get anything out of it whatsoever....but the place had hundreds of people there and many of them were on their 3rd seminar, 4th seminar, etc. I am not saying you can't or should not ask for the proof you want but I also understand al not providing statements. Since 1998 I have spend 10k plus on trader education...much of that in rooms, courses, webinars, books, etc. Most would not provide statements and the ones that did I could not duplicate their results from the materials provided.

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 Forexoil 
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bobwest View Post
All true enough. Most of these things are worthless scams and the vendors are fakes.

I wish we could count on statements or whatever -- but it's important to realize that if they are faking the system, they will fake the statement too. How hard is that, in the world of computers? Plus, you can't trust the BS in "trading" rooms, as many reports by unhappy FIO members make clear. Simply put, they can and will just fake whatever they need to in order to get your money.

Hence the advice to not spend much or any money on them. If someone wants to sell me a book, he may be able to. After I have read it and tried it out, I may, or may not, be willing to spring for a little more. But anyone wanting very much is usually not to be trusted.

There is nothing wrong with wanting proof that they are legitimate. The problem is in getting it.

Bob.

as soon as they fake statements they are open for careful scutiny and criminal charges if found out.
that is why the clever ones dont do it ..

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  #121 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Babool View Post
Al is selling something that now costs $249 for 36 hours of recorded content. If you get one trading idea, one set-up that you can backtest and add to your trading plan..it's worth it. If you get nothing or it does not work at all you get a greater insight on how not to trade.

I read parts of the 3 later Brooks books (his writing style is so hard to read and so deadly boring that I couldn't make it all the way through any of them ), and also a good part of the course (same comment about his speaking style ).

@tturner86 studied his materials thoroughly and tested and applied them in great detail. I think I would have blown my brains out before doing that.... A classic case of "different strokes for different folks."

Still, I learned a few things, and they have stuck with me. I couldn't tell you what a "second entry" is any more, and I don't care, because that wasn't among the things that stuck. The stuff that did stick helped me with my own style, and I think it stuck because it spoke to me, and also showed me things I hadn't seen. The stuff that didn't stick didn't fit well enough with me, or perhaps I was just missing the point, but in either case didn't help me move along. So basically I have forgotten it.

I do not trade the way Al does, and never will. But that's fine by me, because I did learn some genuinely useful things that I put to use every day. This is about 10 billion times better than a broker statement for me, maybe 20 billion. A brokerage statement, assuming it is genuine, would tell me something about how Mr. Brooks traded during a particular period. At best, that might tell me that he traded well -- at that time. It won't tell me that I will trade well if I try to use his stuff.

I understand wanting something to validate that the person you are spending money on is not ripping you off. I honestly do not see how you can look to any kind of documentation to show you that. As many have pointed out, you probably are not going to get it. Also, as I and others have pointed out, you can't rely on it anyway. You would have to first know that they were legit before you could know that you can trust it -- Catch 22.

My take on Brooks is that he is OK as a source of ideas and information on trading, for me. How do I know? Because he has been, for me. I imagine many others have just gone to sleep trying to plow through his books, or have tried out this or that idea and not found it to work, for them. In that case, they should not spend any more money on him.

I really don't know that there is a better test than that. And I don't know how you can expect to know ahead of time if any source will work out for you. So, my suggestion is not to put much time and money into any of them.

I understand @JonnyBoy's issues, and anyone else's too, but if you get one good idea from someone, that's pretty good, and better than you will get from most. I would settle for that, happily.

So, my simple advice is not to expect much, and definitely to not pay much, and to not look for something -- including a review web site, or a statement, or whatever -- that will tell you the good ones from the bad. Just assume anyone who asks you for very much money isn't for you, and carefully sample the ones who don't....

It's you who makes something work or not anyway, not any vendor or expert, and that includes every single one of them, no matter how good or bad they are. The whole effort to find the one who will show you "how to do it" is mistaken, and will lead you nowhere good.

Bob.

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 Seahn 
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bobwest View Post
I read parts of the 3 later Brooks books (his writing style is so hard to read and so deadly boring that I couldn't make it all the way through any of them ), and also a good part of the course (same comment about his speaking style ).

I read somewhere that if you play the videos at 1.5x or 2x speed it really helps to keep you awake. It sure helped me when I was going through them.

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 JonnyBoy 
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Whenever a question is asked, you can never predict how the other persons (in this case the members of FIO) are going to react. You also don’t know in which direction the topic of conversation will go.

It appears that many different side discussions organically spawned from my original question of “Does Al Brooks actually trade live for a living.” Reponses ranged from “stop chasing vendors” to other sidebar discussions talking about the validity of Al’s work in general. Some positive, some negative and some wobbling down the middle.

And then we got to the topic of the ‘evidence’ required to prove a vendor is a trader AND an educator, vs. just an educator. I think the majority agreed that if a vendor doesn’t trade and only educates, then that is fine! Just as long as the vendor is honest about it.

These were all different “answers” to a question I didn’t actually ask. I guess this is just human nature and perhaps it was a necessity to have these side discussions as a foothold to make up one’s own mind.

Amongst some of the branching conversations, there were some responses that I thought were quite ignorant.

In my opinion it has been okay on FIO to question and hold SchoolOfTrade, Puretick, JaguarTrading, EminiTradingSchool, [insert as appropriate here] etc. to account with very poor feedback and downright negativity. Remember, like Al, they all claimed they were professional traders trading a live market before it was discovered they were not.

However, when somebody dared to ask the question if Al was in fact a live trader, it appeared this was too close to some peoples’ nerve.

Nobody took a bullet (other than the shills) of the vendors I listed above, but they did for Al. And I note – the original question had NOTHING to do with the validity Al’s work and what it has or has not done for peoples’ own personal trading. This original question was about whether he trades live or not.

We should be allowed as individuals to request what we feel is a level of appropriate comfort with respect to a vendors credibility. Especially if a future purchase from that vendor could be on the cards. If that doesn’t fit with other FIO members MO, tough cookies. Al Brooks is promoted by FIO, therefore he should open to some disclosure.

With that said, I have spent far too much time on this thread taking a stance that doesn’t sit well with certain individuals. Quite frankly I don’t care. I don’t need the brownie points paid in thanks. I am on my own path and it is tough as hell, but that doesn’t stop me from sticking my neck out for what I believe are the right questions to ask.

To counter an argument against an FIO promoted vendor not requiring to prove any sort of credibility is quite asinine in my opinion.

If a vendor is being actively promoted on FIO, even if it’s ‘just for education’ - ultimately they are called a vendor because they have something to sell. Like it or not, they run a business. Their trading credibility should be verifiable and/or at the very least the question asked and responded to. FIO is probably the only honest forum left. I want to keep it that way.

Up until now, it appears Al doesn’t feel any justification from his end is required. THAT IS FINE. But the slience has sown enough seed of doubt for me. I believe Al Brooks falls in to the dishonest camp. My opinion only. You can think what you like.

In summing up, aside from the sensationalism of Trading Schools continued attacks on Al, of which I don't partake and quite frankly I don't care anymore. My energy to continue reading this thread is spent.

We shouldn’t be so quick to flame down somebody asking about the credibility of a vendor actively promoted on this site. It is a perfectly ethical question to ask.

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  #124 (permalink)
 trendwaves 
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Sounds like we have two questions/issues. The first being does Al Brooks trade for a living ? And second, if so, is he willing to prove it with some verifiable evidence ? I read in this thread his response to the second question is no because it would violate a law. Since this is not true, he either misunderstands the law or is using that answer as a (weak) smokescreen to avoid answering the question directly.

Maybe someone here knows this, but is there a link or reference to where Al Brooks claims he is trading for a living ?

Seems like an easy enough question to ask him directly at his upcoming FIO Webinar on December 8.

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 ratfink 
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I think this whole issue has just gotten overblown because we are living in fractious times. Forum behaviour in particular and the interwebs in general are just a microcosm. Witness this thread and the recent Scalpers Reject and Stone Mush examples.

Outside of blatant name calling and throwing insults, I don't think anyone should regard robust differences of opinion as flaming. FIO is top dog in this arena but emotive stuff will always get out of hand at some point.

Most who want absolute proof will have been burned already, and that probably covers most of us - so it will always be an emotive issue. Even so, I still don't think anyone should underestimate the difficulty of obtaining meaningful 'proof'.

Did anyone reading this get to see Donald's tax returns or Hillary's emails before they voted? Nope, didn't think so. We make our minds up and pull the trigger, nothing else counts.

Cheers

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  #126 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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I hope that, in expressing my views, I gave no one offense.

If I did, I did not mean to, and I apologize.

Bob.

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 JonnyBoy 
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bobwest View Post
I hope that, in expressing my views, I gave no one offense.

If I did, I did not mean to, and I apologize.

Bob.

Not at you @bobwest. I don't think you offending anyone would ever be possible. Your opinions are ALWAYS welcome and ALWAYS balanced.

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  #128 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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bobwest View Post
I hope that, in expressing my views, I gave no one offense.

If I did, I did not mean to, and I apologize.

Bob.

I must admit I laughed out loud reading this.

Jeez Bob, are you sure you're not Canadian?

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  #129 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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JonnyBoy View Post
.We should be allowed as individuals to request what we feel is a level of appropriate comfort with respect to a vendors credibility. Especially if a future purchase from that vendor could be on the cards. If that doesn’t fit with other FIO members MO, tough cookies. Al Brooks is promoted by FIO, therefore he should open to some disclosure.

You asked a fair and legitimate question. I don't expect a golf pro to be able to win or even play in the US Open but I expect that he/she can play the game with some degree of skill. Likewise, in the trading business, I think it is also a reasonable expectation that a vendor selling advanced trading education or systems should use their product to trade real money. The silence from Al Brooks tells us that he doesn't eat what he cooks so you have to ask yourself why that is.

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  #130 (permalink)
Pedro40
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Even lacking real broker statements, one can judge a vendor by 2 things:

1. Have at least a sim 3rd party trading record, for example on Collective2. Sure, this is not as good as a broker statement, but at least it indicates that the vendor theoretically can profitably trade. There is absolutely no excuse for not having at least this.

2. Behaviour in the live trading room. If the vendor can not give concise, before the fact trading signals and explaining why he did those trades, then it is all hogwash. Al has been criticized for not running such a room. He comes and goes, throws in ideas, etc. That isn't how you establish reputation as profitable trader...

Now the value of his books is another question and he could have good ideas even without being a hugely successful trader, but let's not advertise him as such if there is no evidence for it...

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  #131 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Pedro40 View Post
Even lacking real broker statements, one can judge a vendor by 2 things:

1. Have at least a sim 3rd party trading record, for example on Collective2. Sure, this is not as good as a broker statement, but at least it indicates that the vendor theoretically can profitably trade. There is absolutely no excuse for not having at least this.

2. Behaviour in the live trading room. If the vendor can not give concise, before the fact trading signals and explaining why he did those trades, then it is all hogwash. Al has been criticized for not running such a room. He comes and goes, throws in ideas, etc. That isn't how you establish reputation as profitable trader...

Now the value of his books is another question and he could have good ideas even without being a hugely successful trader, but let's not advertise him as such if there is no evidence for it...

I have spent a little time sitting in on his room. Some points:

- He does not give any trade calls. He says up front that he won't, and he does not. Anyone looking for trade calling could reasonably say "Huh?", but that's not offered, and it explicitly is not.

- Part of not offering live calls, he says up front, is that the legal/regulatory requirements he would have to comply with are a burden he does not want to have. So he doesn't do them at all. (Is that why he doesn't want to show statements? I don't know. Is he right or wrong about that? I don't know.)

- What the hell does he offer, then? He gives a running commentary during the trading day and a recap at the end. I ultimately found it not that useful, but he does give the pros and cons of being long or short, often giving the case for each side. He is very clear about his reasoning, and it does help to understand how he looks at the market. Some of what I have gotten from Brooks has come from these running commentaries. However, they are also completely maddening in his scrupulous detail, and refusal to commit to one side or another.

- So, if he has to give "concise, before the fact trading signals," he does not meet that test. But then, he never gives any trade calls, either. I do think that this is a reasonable test for anyone who is giving trade calls -- so, if that's what you want, save yourself the time and a little money and skip it. (There was a free 2-day trial when I did it, and they probably still have that, so you can see if it's your cup of tea or not.)

- After the trading close, he will talk about the trades he did make, or says he made, and the reasons for them. Occasionally I think he has mentioned a trade he has taken during the day as well, but seldom, and not as he takes it. He never is telling anyone what trades to make in real time, and isn't offering to. So to repeat, don't go there hoping to get actionable "trade here" type of advice. You won't get it.

------------

OK, I think all of the above is factual, and while I gave an opinion now and then, I don't think anyone who had been in the room would disagree about the factual content, because it's what is there.

Now, some opinions :

- Factually speaking, don't go to this room if you want trade calls. I agree with @Pedro40's criteria for what a trade-calling room should have. You won't get the calls, and so you won't have the criteria met, either.

- As an opinion, don't go to any room looking for trade calls. I paid, I think, about a hundred bucks a month for Al's room, and I did it a couple of times. I would not have paid a nickle for a trade caller. It's hard to convince the hopeful and the inexperienced, but there will never be any value in that kind of thing.

- Sitting and listening to Al's droning voice hour after hour, I did finally understand enough about his slant on the market and I am happy with my bargain. It was worth the money and the time. But, I'm not putting myself through it ever again .

- He never showed me a trade, and I would have dropped out if he had -- as I said, I just don't care about somebody's trades; I want to understand the reasoning behind it. I will not ever try to copy or shadow anyone. That's a great way to fail to succeed as a trader, and not even know why, since you're just copying someone else.

- This is purely my personal opinion, but I have zero doubts about his honesty. This is just a conclusion I formed after going though the day with him, day after day. I do not have any doubts whatever that he trades his money, for real, just as he says. I do not expect anyone to accept or reject my conclusion, but I have no doubts whatever. This is a personal judgment I made from a pretty decent period of familiarity, just like everyone makes personal judgments all the time. Your opinion may vary. No problem. But it was not done blindly, nor without a large personal capacity for skepticism.

----------------

As usual, I have written more than I probably needed to. Someday I may get over my verbosity (or not....)

But I felt there was a point of view that was missing, and I wanted to get it out there.

Bob.

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  #132 (permalink)
emini2000
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bobwest View Post
- Part of not offering live calls, he says up front, is that the legal/regulatory requirements he would have to comply with are a burden he does not want to have. So he doesn't do them at all. (Is that why he doesn't want to show statements? I don't know. Is he right or wrong about that? I don't know.)

I think it's pretty much been proven this isn't true. It's not against regulations to show statements, not difficult stuff to comply with, etc. As a matter of fact the regulators actually encourage the statement things as long as it is a TRUE and VALID statement. This is pretty much the standard excuse everyone uses when they don't want to prove they actually trade with a profit.

This is from Emmett's review:

Is showing a record of trades a criminal act? TradingSchools.Org, in the past two years, has written extensively about trading educators. Not once have we ever witnessed a trading educator getting into trouble for being honest with consumers. In fact, we have been closely involved in both the criminal and civil prosecution of over a dozen fraudulently promoted trading educators and trading systems. In speaking with CFTC and SEC investigators directly, they simply laugh whenever they hear this well-worn piece of urban fiction.

There is nothing illegal with showing a trading record. However, it is fraudulent to show a trading record that has been falsified for marketing purposes. Perhaps this is the reason why Al Brooks does not publish a trading record?

Of course, trading educators like Al Brooks will attempt to obfuscate and confuse this point. They will say things like, “I talked to an attorney and they said it’s against the law”. This is pure nonsense. Securities regulators love disclosure. The more the better.

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  #133 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Damn, I knew I shouldn't have mentioned statements.

My post had essentially nothing to do with statements, but that is what will attract all the attention.

Time for me to bow out of this thread.

Bob.

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  #134 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Al brooks doesnt visit this thread. If you have an issue with him email him.

He hasnt logged in since may 2015.

https://futures.io/trading_member/45431-albrooks.html

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  #135 (permalink)
Pedro40
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What good is a running market commentary without trades? I might as well just watch CNBC. His excuse is obviously BS, and talking about his trades at the end of the day is fishy. At the very least he could have a C2 account with 6-8 hours delay, but at least he would have a record.

I don't doubt he trades real money but I assume his returns are nothing spectacular, over the years very few traders' returns are. He probably had a few good years in the beginning than he discovered trading education, a continuous source of income as opposed to trading.

If some people find value in is books or comments, fine, but let's not worship him as the best in trading education.

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  #136 (permalink)
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Two cents.. as I'm sitting on my hands waiting to hit target..

So you minding your own business selling your courses and books based on a system that ok, might have worked better back in the day but we all know fixed method efficacy is tidal as the markets vary and people might find a prince or kiss a frog at any one point in time, but thats just life.

Then comes Emmett Moore.

1. Immediately contact a lawyer and make it abundantly clear that your not a broke-ass scammer and if he (an ex-con) even mentions your name you will put him on the street.

Thats about it I guess. Saves getting involved in a lot of BS.

Seems to have done the trick for a couple of big vendors I know who are not listed on TradingSchools...mysteriously...

Edit: And who will continue to remain nameless as they don't want anything to do with his stink. Just because one guy is bad does not make the self-appointed sheriff good.

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  #137 (permalink)
 dstrader 
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Rory View Post
Two cents.. as I'm sitting on my hands waiting to hit target..

So you minding your own business selling your courses and books based on a system that ok, might have worked better back in the day but we all know fixed method efficacy is tidal as the markets vary and people might find a prince or kiss a frog at any one point in time, but thats just life.

Then comes Emmett Moore.

1. Immediately contact a lawyer and make it abundantly clear that your not a broke-ass scammer and if he (an ex-con) even mentions your name you will put him on the street.

Thats about it I guess. Saves getting involved in a lot of BS.

Seems to have done the trick for a couple of big vendors I know who are not listed on TradingSchools...mysteriously...

Edit: And who will continue to remain nameless as they don't want anything to do with his stink. Just because one guy is bad does not make the self-appointed sheriff good.


One thing about Emmett, and I'm not going to try to defend him here, but I do think the service he is providing in invaluable. The thing I can say is that I started trading years ago with a small group of (disoriented) people from other careers but I would say quite smart people.

We've been as a group to at least 10 of his reviewed rooms (probably more). We had a Skype group and would exchange experiences, because you know how hard it is, to think that you are the 'only one' that didn't get it, the only one that didn't control your emotions, etc. One of the guys even had an emotional break down, and hired a psychologist to help him, because the set ups seemed so clear, but he couldn't make it successful, and many other stories I don't have time to describe here.

We were discussing other day and we were very angry. Not because his reviews were fake, but because how 'accurate' they were! We were angry because we as a group took so long to figure out the scams! Some rooms took us 6 months until we realized that nobody would succeed! A bunch of smart guys with executive careers in large companies. That's how well these scams are elaborated. I guess we were angry at ourselves, because here come this guy called Emmett gets into a room for a couple of weeks and can so quickly figure out the total BS.
Oh well, I guess we all matured since them, since our rule has been not to become a member of any room whatsoever, ever!

As I said 99% are scams (and I include here stocks and futures, rooms and newsletters), we are still looking for the 1% that are honest. Would love to hear someone with a good experience in a room.

PS: btw, I could even mention a couple that we have been but he hasn't reviewed yet (Alphawave, power emini, channel-trading, etc.). Can't wait until he posts his reviews. They are always fun to read (although sometimes I feel like crying because all the poor people that are putting their hard earned money into this).

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  #138 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Pedro40 View Post
What good is a running market commentary without trades? I might as well just watch CNBC. His excuse is obviously BS, and talking about his trades at the end of the day is fishy. At the very least he could have a C2 account with 6-8 hours delay, but at least he would have a record.

I don't doubt he trades real money but I assume his returns are nothing spectacular, over the years very few traders' returns are. He probably had a few good years in the beginning than he discovered trading education, a continuous source of income as opposed to trading.

If some people find value in is books or comments, fine, but let's not worship him as the best in trading education.

This will be my last on all this, really....

It's just this: anyone who goes into a trade room looking for trades to take is going to lose their money, their time, their self-respect, and anything else they have.

Looking for a good trade room is a fool's errand. Period.

I do understand why people are pissed about trade rooms, and all the other scams. Here's the cure: don't go into any. There's nothing in them. So just don't bother looking for someone with a record. Stay away.

It sounds hard-nosed and realistic to demand a verifiable record before you will go to a trade room. It's actually the opposite. That means that if you saw the record, you would buy what they were selling. That's not hard-nosed, that's naive. Don't do that. Stay out of there.

So if Al not calling out trades is so useless, go to a room where some super-generous master trader is sharing all his inside secrets, and take all of his trades as he gives them to you. Sure, that's the ticket.... What could go wrong?

Obviously, everyone has to make up their own mind, and, for all I know, there may be such a room out there. But one of my main points was that even if you find it, taking that person's trades will do you no good as far as becoming a trader yourself, because you won't really know why he made them, or why they worked or why they didn't. If he decides not to run the room any more, then what do you do? You're dependent on the master, and he's gone.

That's why I said that I would never go into a room looking for someone's trade calls. Just don't waste your time.

Now I'm done.

Bob.

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  #139 (permalink)
Rory
 
 
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dstrader View Post
One thing about Emmett, and I'm not going to try to defend him here, but I do think the service he is providing in invaluable.

I have considered the utility provided argument in the past however on balance, I see his reviews as fruit of a poisoned tree. I read continued dishonesty and scheming in his actions and some snippets reported to me by a couple of vendors reinforce this personal bias.

Regardless, like Trump I'm sure he cares nothing for criticism, any mention of his name just feeds him so I'll leave it rest.

My personal opinion is as I said, that any decent vendor should step on him immediately.

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 sam028 
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I agree with @Rory, things doesn't seems to be always clear and legit with Emmet and he changed his reviews multiple times and there were some "civilian casualties". But if the "90% are snake oil vendors" message can spread and warn the naives then let it be!
I do not agree with the comments on Al Brooks, but I think Al Brooks don't care about it so that's fine , and don't agree with other (positive this time) reviews with some factual elements I can't disclose (it's not KJ Trading).
So Al Brooks books are hard to read, his methodology is hard to follow, I suppose the trading room would be hard to follow too, but giving him the same 2 stars like other notorious snake oil vendors is not fair.

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  #141 (permalink)
emini2000
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sam028 View Post
But if the "90% are snake oil vendors" message can spread and warn the naives then let it be!

Agreed. Except it's more like 99.9999999999%.

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  #142 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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sam028 View Post
I agree with @Rory but giving him the same 2 stars like other notorious snake oil vendors is not fair.

This is probably a pressure move from the website that does the reviews.

Don't have the facts? That's okay, just write something that puts the educator in the same category as the snake oil salesmen. The ball is now on the educator to prove them wrong, and if they don't bother then it taints their reputation.

Petty yes, but hey everyone has different ways of getting what they want.


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  #143 (permalink)
 dstrader 
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Rory View Post
I have considered the utility provided argument in the past however on balance, I see his reviews as fruit of a poisoned tree. I read continued dishonesty and scheming in his actions and some snippets reported to me by a couple of vendors reinforce this personal bias.

Regardless, like Trump I'm sure he cares nothing for criticism, any mention of his name just feeds him so I'll leave it rest.

My personal opinion is as I said, that any decent vendor should step on him immediately.

I stand by what I said, the rooms that we participated and his reviews were absolutely accurate. Not sure if all are accurate.

I do see some things on his actions that I don't totally approve and that's why I said I don't want to defend him, but as an investigative site it seems that you need to put yourself in some 'over the line' situations (e.g. being a fake member with the purpose of evaluating a room, etc.). I also don't like that he is supporting a couple of rooms that doesn't seem any better than the ones he so much criticize. And this makes you start to wonder if there is some quid pro-quo (or a tentative) going on.

Said that, I would assume that any vendor would try to 'kill' the messenger instead of trying to prove that his room is honest and I've seen some very hateful messages against him from vendors. The couple of vendors that contacted you may be doing that. Remember, these are soulless people. I don't want anything to do with them ever in my life. I remember one of the rooms that we were a member for a while, a teacher with a dying mother that couldn't work anymore gave her last $3500 to pay for one of these courses. I've seen enough! And nothing is done, if someone like Emmett is needed to bring some light to this, so be it!

Either way, when I see a site in his reviews I assume they are maybe not 100% but somewhat accurate based on my group's experience, and I would recommend extreme caution to anyone planning in joining them.

As for me trading rooms, trading newsletters, etc. are a thing of the past.

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Pedro40
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sam028 View Post
I agree with @Rory but giving him the same 2 stars like other notorious snake oil vendors is not fair.

I think 2 stars rating is just about right. First, most systems are zero stars (OK one star) Second, there are no 4-5 stars systems, (I would call any room like that, that beat the market 3 years in a row), so it is about 2-3. Out of boredom once I looked up some of his better rated rooms, and guess what? They got the better rating when they were performing OK, but accidentally at the time of my looking they were all in a downturn, not making any money. Maybe it was just my timing, or I am right and no room beats the market 3 years in a row...

Actually, there is really no point for Emmett to review these rooms. They are automatically scams, (thus no review necessary) and he should write only about those rooms that have some minuscule value, and those are less than 1%.

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  #145 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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Trading rooms are being brought up a lot, so I'm about to start a rant on them.

I see no logical reason for a highly successful trader to start a trading room, just none. Not even money. Here are the 2 biggest bullshit reasons I hear that 'highly successful traders' start a live trading room:
  1. "I want to help traders"
    • You want to help traders by having them rely on you and copy your every move? You are probably going to do more harm to them than good. Every trader should trade differently based on THEIR style and having people copy YOU does nothing to improve THEIR edge
    • Yes people will walk away thinking they have learned something, but they have just seen YOU do something, most will never be able to replicate things on their own
    • Anybody that genuinely thinks they are helping traders by opening up a trading room either doesn't see the big picture, or chooses to ignore it
    • You can 'teach' your ways in a trading room, but if people are watching and paying attention to you, then they aren't doing that with the market. You are better off telling them to take a course or read a book, or just trade...

  2. "It's an easy way for me to make a couple of extra bucks and costs me nothing"
    • So you're a successful trader and you kill the markets, great, you must be making a decent chunk of change trading.
    • Running a trading room LIVE takes your attention away from your CORE BUSINESS, which as a successful trader should be trading.
    • If you take 1 loss in a day simply because you want to prove you are right to your audience, how many people must register for you to make up the loss?
    • Imagine taking a 0.5% loss on a 500K account because you didn't want to look like a fool in front of your audience after calling a trade. That's $2,500 that you lost that you otherwise wouldn't have. How many people need to sign up for you to make up for that one loss? Think if you do 2-3 of those a week, the losses start to rack up pretty fucking fast
    • If you think you can multi-task then you are ignorant, because the truth is that humans are really bad at multi-tasking, no matter how good we think we are. I watched one of Al's webinars and he talked about turning his cellphone off because he wants no distractions, but yet he will be distracted by a trading room? Come on.

I can understand why a successful trader would start a course or a book. It's some work upfront, very little maintenance, there's the potential to help traders (provided you do it right), and it brings you some money on the side. All without having an impact on your edge on the markets. But even that is questionable whether or not it's worth the time of a highly successful trader. There's a reason why you don't see the guys who are pulling in millions from the market every year creating a course, it's just not worth their time.

If you are a mediocre trader, and let's face it, most of us are (and I mean that in the nicest way possible, but most of us aren't bringing in the millions). I would go further and put myself in the 'bad' trader category, I'm not even mediocre yet. Then starting a trading room might make sense at first, but you'll see how quickly your edge will start to fall off that if you ACTUALLY trade, you will stop the room sooner or later.

And as for the consumer, why would you want to pay to watch a mediocre trader call out trades? Please spend your money on something better than watching someone else trade. Go take a course on fundamentals, start a journal, use that money for a combine, save the money and spend it on a psychology professional who can watch you trade and help you improve. Please stop chasing these trade rooms that you think are helping you but in the long-term do more harm than good.

So please someone enlighten me on a logical reason from a business standpoint or moral standpoint that a highly successful trader would start a trading room?

Actually, writing this down I can think of one reason, and that is the 'look at me I'm a good trader' factor. And let's be honest, if you have to pick between more $ in your bank account or the 'look at me' factor, a person with the right mentality to succeed in such a competitive field will not pick the 'look at me' factor.

Rant over.

PS- If you run a trade room and I'm offending you I'm sorry, but I feel like nobody ever brings this up.

Reading this after posting, it seems like I might've been raging while writing it
Believe me, I really wasn't

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  #146 (permalink)
 dstrader 
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@SoftSoap

I think I agree 100% with what you said with exception of the ‘f..’ word on your fourth bullet point (second item). The use of vulgarity always weakens someone’s point imho, and your points are too good for that.

And I think I’m going to write to the people that have a room or plan to have one in the future since this seem to be a hot topic that now spans 15 pages in this thread:

If you are someone thinking in opening a room for ‘helping traders’ we can save you a lot of time and effort: you can come right here on Fio and share your set up and knowledge. You can even record videos and upload it right here to show people how you found success. I guarantee you, you will have a lot less problems than setting up a site, payment options, etc and spend hours entertaining newbies that are going to ask you what is a Market Order, while you are trying to make hundreds of thousands of dollars with your own trading.

On the overall trading room subject; I think we live in a time where it’s very hard to hide. With social media, forums, review sites, etc. you are dreaming if you think you are going to be the next successful room hiding that you are actually a Breakeven or failed trader that suddenly found these great indicators and set ups. I believe that those days are over. The contribution of Fio and other sites to spot these sites now compared with when I started is amazing. I can find out your age, address, previous professions, the size of your home and how much you paid for it, previous marriages, criminal records and even the places you lived. No, I’m not an FBI expert, I’m just a person that owns an iPhone that can press the home button and ask Siri. (or Cortana and Google on your desktop for that matter).

I think if you believe you found something useful that will REALLY help other people and can be proven to be of substantial value, you are going to have to define yourself as an educator ONLY, not a trader. There is nothing wrong with that. I do think there is some value on Price Action, and I personally use Volume Profile that I learned from Jim Dalton books.

These rooms will quickly disappear. The model now with social media and the internet, will be sites like Tastytrade that really provide a lot of value, but they are free. They know they will not survive if they don’t have a community of followers that like their products and advice, and that benefits both them and their customers. We will also see brokerages like Stage 5 helping their clients to be successful and in the same way creating an honest and useful community. Information is out there, too quick, too fast and too extensive for you to survive without integrity anymore.


So, my point is, don’t even try. Don’t waste your time. You will not get anywhere (just maybe in jail or with a huge SEC or CFTC penalty).


Now back to the retail traders out there starting now: things are getting better, not worse. You will have a lot of information, and most of it will be of value and free. The folks providing the information have interest on you being successful, because they are not making money directly on you, but on you being successful and a customer of their services. That doesn’t mean that it will be easy as this is a very competitive profession, but you will not have to do what folks like me and my friends had to do and spend a lot of money and years without any light in the end of the tunnel. You will not have a heart attack, fights with your wife or even a divorce, a psychological breakdown, an empty IRA account and many other bad things I’ve seen people in this business go through.
You will just have to navigate the learning curve as most people did before they could become a successful trader (develop their own edge, emotional control, risk management, etc.). This will take time, but it will be useful time that will guide you to your final goal and not a bunch of dead ended detours. It will be challenging and fun as any new endeavor; not painful, depressing and miserable.


I expect to be done writing in this thread, but this is an important topic for most beginners or struggling traders out there and I hoped to finish writing here (at least on my part) on a positive note!

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  #147 (permalink)
 ratfink 
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All the analysis and input in this thread has been well worth reading. Unfortunately it won't affect much because human nature doesn't change - folks will still want free lunches and you can't learn somebody else's lessons for them.

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  #148 (permalink)
 Tymbeline 
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sam028 View Post
So Al Brooks books are hard to read, his methodology is hard to follow


I think there are several Al Brooks enthusiasts here (I count myself as one of them) who can't argue with that.

Indeed, I suspect that's part of the reason for some of the negative publicity: people want something that's "quick and easy to follow".

Whenever posting positively/supportively about Al Brooks and mentioning that I wouldn't be making a living at all, without having benefitted from his work, I've always mentioned that the books are hard to read and badly edited.



sam028 View Post
giving him the same 2 stars like other notorious snake oil vendors is not fair.


Clearly.



Stray Dog View Post
The silence from Al Brooks tells us that he doesn't eat what he cooks


In this thread, some people have either tacitly assumed this to be so, or openly stated it, as you have yourself.

It isn't actually an objective statement at all: it's simply an interpretation, or a belief. It's opinion, not fact.

The silence from Al Brooks apparently tells some people that.

As Sam says, however, it doesn't really matter, since it apparently doesn't bother Al himself (or at least, he's decided - rightly, in my opinion - not to respond to it): the people who believe that presumably aren't potential Al Brooks customers anyway.

(Again, I'm not commenting on the trading room, having never seen it. I broadly agree with all the negative comments offered above, about "trading rooms" in general.)

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  #149 (permalink)
 JohnS 
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tturner86 View Post
@Big Mike can explain more on how webinars are selected.

But here is my take. There are two types of webinars educational and promotional. Educational webinars are just that, education. The vendors are selected based on their reputation and popularity with FIO members. This is one reason we see scalping webinars even though Mike disagrees with the topic. If a vendor advertises during a webinar they are usually not brought back. If the community doesn't like the webinar then they are not brought back.

The second is promotional and those are only allowed to site sponsors. To become a site sponsor is an ordeal. Mike does his due diligence and vets the sponsors well. Again he can speak more to how that is done. But just let me say this, Mike is very picky on who is allowed to sponsor the site. He could have done like other sites and just taken the money from anyone, but he hasn't.

So I am going to leave it with this, if you have issues with the presenters of Webinars please post in the webinar thread or PM Mike.

Now on to Al, I studied all of his books and the course. I took that mixed it with Market and Volume profile via FuturesTrader71, added in some custom RSI and VWAP stuff and create my own trading style. Al provided a base understanding of how the market works. It is a bit myopic, but it was a start. Having talked to him personally I think he is a great guy. I agree and hope his story is true. But ultimately I don't care, it will have no bearing on me, my trading, and my future.

I think people look for turnkey trading. I am not saying anyone posting here is, but that just in general it seems that people want it handed to them. After studying Al's stuff I took 1 major setup and manually back tested it. Looking at 5 min charts all the way back to 2008. Bar for bar, day for day. What looked like a Major Trend Reversal, where it worked and were it failed. Marking thousands of instances. I did this for other setups. I created my trading plan 2 sided, what to do if a setup works and what to do if the setup fails. The failing side gave me ideas on what kind of risk management was needed, but it also gave me ideas on where I might be able to reverse if I was wrong.

And earlier @trendisyourfriend I wasn't talking about trading what you believe. I was talking about trading a system that you believe it. There is a difference, if you have done the testing and have found an edge you will have more confidence in trading than if you trade a system that someone 'told' you had an edge. As others said about broker statements seeing is believing. Well actually testing a strategy and seeing it work is worth more than a broker statement from someone else.

There is no right way to trade, but there are plenty of wrong ways. To me the number one wrong way is to trade halfcocked and by the seat of your pants.

I second this whole heartedly. You have to build your own system and prove it to yourself.

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  #150 (permalink)
pinetree
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Interesting discussion. I don't think all of these guys who are questioning are trying to avoid responsibility for their trading, or looking for handouts. Surely some are, but many just want some assurance that their teacher is steering them onto the right path. I bet all of them have been conned before. I've read guys post about spending months or years studying vendors like Jaguar Ed or WrbTrader or some other "trader" who professed to have near straight-line equity curves, and then it all turns out to be a sham. All that work for nothing. So yeah, I sympathize with them, they are still interested in trading, but don't want a repeat of those terrible experiences.

The bottom line is that yes you do have to make your method your own, and no one else can do that for you. But if you are concerned with credibility I would say stay away from all online educators and all seminar speakers. Instead get to know people in the industry... CTA's, prop traders, market makers, hedge fund traders, portfolio managers, and so on. Let them point you in the right direction. These expos and ecosystems... it's all marketing. Instead treat this like a profession, get to know the industry and the people in it.

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  #151 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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dstrader View Post
@SoftSoap

I think I agree 100% with what you said with exception of the ‘f..’ word on your fourth bullet point (second item). The use of vulgarity always weakens someone’s point imho, and your points are too good for that.

You are right on this, I blame it on my choice of music yesterday
But I do apologize.

Cheers!

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  #152 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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Tymbeline View Post
I think there are several Al Brooks enthusiasts here (I count myself as one of them) who can't argue with that.

Indeed, I suspect that's part of the reason for some of the negative publicity: people want something that's "quick and easy to follow".

Whenever posting positively/supportively about Al Brooks and mentioning that I wouldn't be making a living at all, without having benefitted from his work, I've always mentioned that the books are hard to read and badly edited.





Clearly.





In this thread, some people have either tacitly assumed this to be so, or openly stated it, as you have yourself.

It isn't actually an objective statement at all: it's simply an interpretation, or a belief. It's opinion, not fact.

The silence from Al Brooks apparently tells some people that.

As Sam says, however, it doesn't really matter, since it apparently doesn't bother Al himself (or at least, he's decided - rightly, in my opinion - not to respond to it): the people who believe that presumably aren't potential Al Brooks customers anyway.

(Again, I'm not commenting on the trading room, having never seen it. I broadly agree with all the negative comments offered above, about "trading rooms" in general.)

Give me a break. Brooks claims to trade, he claims to trade what he teaches, he claims that he's a successful trader yet he can produce no proof. He's a dishonest, lying con artist. I have no problem if he markets his product as pure education. This is what price action is all about. Here's the theory and here are the patterns or ways to interpret a chart, no problem with that type of education product at all, but that's not what he's doing. He should be banned until he either produces proof of real trading or comes clean and says he doesn't trade.

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  #153 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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SoftSoap View Post
This is probably a pressure move from the website that does the reviews.

Don't have the facts? That's okay, just write something that puts the educator in the same category as the snake oil salesmen. The ball is now on the educator to prove them wrong, and if they don't bother then it taints their reputation.

Petty yes, but hey everyone has different ways of getting what they want.


What do you mean "Doesn't have the facts." Emmett did everything humanly possible to get "the facts" from Brooks but he wouldn't provide proof that he trades what he sells. He didn't provide that proof because he was unable to. Brooks doesn't trade the method that he sells.

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  #154 (permalink)
Rory
 
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Edit: I posted as BobWest posted. I agree, its just getting nowhere. We discussed above in another thread. Truly pro traders are rarely victims of deception by their very nature. Its not a fair world.

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  #155 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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bobwest View Post
Can we just have an end to all this now?

No one's opinion is going to be changed. No enthusiast of either (or any) side is going to budge. Nothing new is going to be said.



Let's just have an end, and agree that we don't agree, and move on.

Bob.

Isn't futuresIO a place where people don't get ripped off? Shouldn't there be some requirement that a vendor produce proof that what they are selling does what they claim it does? I think we can move on as long as out of all of this the bar for vendors being allowed to sell their product is lifted and they have to provide 3rd party verified proof that their product performs. All claims made by or implied by vendors need to be proven.

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  #156 (permalink)
 Seahn 
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This thread is moving into the "Trolling" category.

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  #157 (permalink)
 ratfink 
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bobwest View Post
Let's just have an end, and agree that we don't agree, and move on.

I didn't realise I was disagreeing with anybody, so I don't need to agree to and I'm not sure why you gave my two observational lines such short shrift, especially compared to some sermons that get posted. Honestly, observing forum herding behaviour just lately has been fascinating. If more took some peaceful time to do so they might figure a few other things out, like why the wave principle exists at all.

Have a good weekend.

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  #158 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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ratfink View Post
I didn't realise I was disagreeing with anybody, so I don't need to agree to and I'm not sure why you gave my two observational lines such short shrift, especially compared to some sermons that get posted. Honestly, observing forum herding behaviour just lately has been fascinating. If more took some peaceful time to do so they might figure a few other things out, like why the wave principle exists at all.

Have a good weekend.

My mistake in what I was trying to utilize your words to convey. I wanted to say that I agreed with your point that all the analysis isn't going to change anyone's ideas.

I didn't mean to say anything about agreeing or not with you in terms of the controversy under way. I meant that it was time for the disputants, myself included, to move on, since nothing more was going to be said, and no one was going to be convinced.

Not that there was anything for you to agree to, or that I disagreed. That thought was not aimed at you.

I should have just bowed out a while ago, instead of adding to the heat here. I'll delete that post, since my meaning was unclear, and not add anything more to all this.

Sorry I didn't just do that sooner.

Your point about forum herd behavior is well-made, I'm afraid.

Bob.

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  #159 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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Stray Dog View Post
What do you mean "Doesn't have the facts." Emmett did everything humanly possible to get "the facts" from Brooks but he wouldn't provide proof that he trades what he sells.

I think you answered your own question

What I meant by he doesn't have the facts, is that he is not in possession of the facts. I'm not stating whether he is right or wrong, because frankly I don't have the facts either.

Yes he tried to get them, but was unsuccessful. He can't confirm that Al is a trader or that he isn't. The best he can do is assume, and his post makes it clear that it's an assumption on what he believes. Everyone is entitled to their own assumption, but let's recognize that an assumption is just that, an assumption.



Stray Dog View Post
He didn't provide that proof because he was unable to. Brooks doesn't trade the method that he sells.

That's a very big jump in logic to be honest.

Just because someone doesn't provide proof, doesn't mean they are guilty. I'm sure there's a name for that under one of the 100s of logical fallacies

There could be many reasons as to why he won't show proof. Being a fraud is one, prioritization of his personal matters over perceived credibility is another. And frankly it could be anything in between.

To be clear I'm on the side that says Al should provide proof as to whether or not he trades or just call himself a pundit. But I'm not one to let emotions trump logic because this is FIO and not reddit.

One thing is to have a reasonable argument between members based on logic, and another one is grabbing pitchforks and letting our emotions justify the hops in logic.

Let's keep FIO what it is, a great community.

Cheers.

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  #160 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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ratfink View Post
I didn't realise I was disagreeing with anybody, so I don't need to agree to and I'm not sure why you gave my two observational lines such short shrift, especially compared to some sermons that get posted. Honestly, observing forum herding behaviour just lately has been fascinating. If more took some peaceful time to do so they might figure a few other things out, like why the wave principle exists at all.

Have a good weekend.

Just a thought I had reading this, but I wonder if the forums become more hostile as the market becomes more volatile?

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  #161 (permalink)
 trendwaves 
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Stray Dog View Post
What do you mean "Doesn't have the facts." Emmett did everything humanly possible to get "the facts" from Brooks but he wouldn't provide proof that he trades what he sells. He didn't provide that proof because he was unable to. Brooks doesn't trade the method that he sells.

Al Brooks not providing the proof you request is not evidence or proof of any wrongdoing on his part. He is not required to provide that information to the public. His choice to not provide that information to the public does not prove anything directly, but it can lead some people to form opinions one way or the other. Just keep in mind those opinions or conclusions drawn are being done so based on a lack of information. He may or may not trade live, we simply do not have enough objective information to know that answer with absolute certainty. Some folks may give him the benefit of the doubt, whereas others like yourself are not willing to.

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  #162 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Al Brooks will be asked directly to clarify these items in the next webinar. His answers will decide what happens next.

I'm on my honeymoon with limited internet, please don't make me babysit this thread

Back in 10 days or so

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  #163 (permalink)
 SoftSoap 
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Big Mike View Post
Al Brooks will be asked directly to clarify these items in the next webinar. His answers will decide what happens next.

I'm on my honeymoon with limited internet, please don't make me babysit this thread

Back in 10 days or so

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

Great way to address this. Hearing the community's concerns, not taking any sides, and asking Al to clarify these issues directly at the next webinar.

This is why @Big Mike is the man running the show!

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  #164 (permalink)
emini2000
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Well, one can easily answer the questions dishonestly if they aren't required any proof. All vendors will claim to make money until you ask them for proof. So just asking really doesn't reveal anything.

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  #165 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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SoftSoap View Post
I think you answered your own question

What I meant by he doesn't have the facts, is that he is not in possession of the facts. I'm not stating whether he is right or wrong, because frankly I don't have the facts either.

Yes he tried to get them, but was unsuccessful. He can't confirm that Al is a trader or that he isn't. The best he can do is assume, and his post makes it clear that it's an assumption on what he believes. Everyone is entitled to their own assumption, but let's recognize that an assumption is just that, an assumption.




That's a very big jump in logic to be honest.

Just because someone doesn't provide proof, doesn't mean they are guilty. I'm sure there's a name for that under one of the 100s of logical fallacies

There could be many reasons as to why he won't show proof. Being a fraud is one, prioritization of his personal matters over perceived credibility is another. And frankly it could be anything in between.

To be clear I'm on the side that says Al should provide proof as to whether or not he trades or just call himself a pundit. But I'm not one to let emotions trump logic because this is FIO and not reddit.

One thing is to have a reasonable argument between members based on logic, and another one is grabbing pitchforks and letting our emotions justify the hops in logic.

Let's keep FIO what it is, a great community.

Cheers.

It doesn't take much logic to understand that if Al Brooks had proof of his trading he's have produced it to avoid a negative review and certainly he'd produce it now after the amount of interest that this thread has generated, but he hasn't. You can do all the mental flip and flops you like to think of reasons why he hasn't produced evidence of his trading but that is a pretty illogical thing to do when the logical conclusion is staring you straight in the face.

You stated that although he didn't have all the facts Emmett tarnished Al Brook's reputation. What was Emmett supposed to do? Give Al Brooks a free pass because he refused to provide proof of his claims? Brooks was given every opportunity to support those claims but he refused. Emmett reported all of that in his review. You may not like what was written but it reflects the truth and if Brook's reputation has been tarnished it's because he has made claims that he refuses to prove.

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  #166 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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trendwaves View Post
Al Brooks not providing the proof you request is not evidence or proof of any wrongdoing on his part. He is not required to provide that information to the public. His choice to not provide that information to the public does not prove anything directly, but it can lead some people to form opinions one way or the other. Just keep in mind those opinions or conclusions drawn are being done so based on a lack of information. He may or may not trade live, we simply do not have enough objective information to know that answer with absolute certainty. Some folks may give him the benefit of the doubt, whereas others like yourself are not willing to.

He's a vendor making claims about the product he is selling and making claims about his own trading using that method. You are correct, he has no legal requirement to provide proof but refusing to provide it should be ringing common sense alarm bells and if he's given this venue (this safe space) to sell that product he should be providing proof or as I stated before he should be making it very clear that he is simply teaching what price action is. Providing proof may not be a standard that the law requires but I believe that it is a standard that this community should require.

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  #167 (permalink)
 sam028 
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Some older BMT/FIO members may remind that the idea of creating a trading room/web site was not Al's idea but some of his book reader's. As far as I remember Al Brooks was not very open to the idea. It would be interesting to find the guy(s) who pushed the idea, at least one of them was member on the forum.
There are a bunch of more obvious targets than him anyway.

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  #168 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Stray Dog View Post
He's a vendor making claims about the product he is selling and making claims about his own trading using that method. You are correct, he has no legal requirement to provide proof but refusing to provide it should be ringing common sense alarm bells and if he's given this venue (this safe space) to sell that product he should be providing proof or as I stated before he should be making it very clear that he is simply teaching what price action is. Providing proof may not be a standard that the law requires but I believe that it is a standard that this community should require.

Can you name any vendor providing proof?

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  #169 (permalink)
emini2000
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Stray Dog View Post
It doesn't take much logic to understand that if Al Brooks had proof of his trading he's have produced it to avoid a negative review and certainly he'd produce it now after the amount of interest that this thread has generated, but he hasn't. You can do all the mental flip and flops you like to think of reasons why he hasn't produced evidence of his trading but that is a pretty illogical thing to do when the logical conclusion is staring you straight in the face.

You stated that although he didn't have all the facts Emmett tarnished Al Brook's reputation. What was Emmett supposed to do? Give Al Brooks a free pass because he refused to provide proof of his claims? Brooks was given every opportunity to support those claims but he refused. Emmett reported all of that in his review. You may not like what was written but it reflects the truth and if Brook's reputation has been tarnished it's because he has made claims that he refuses to prove.


Stray Dog View Post
He's a vendor making claims about the product he is selling and making claims about his own trading using that method. You are correct, he has no legal requirement to provide proof but refusing to provide it should be ringing common sense alarm bells and if he's given this venue (this safe space) to sell that product he should be providing proof or as I stated before he should be making it very clear that he is simply teaching what price action is. Providing proof may not be a standard that the law requires but I believe that it is a standard that this community should require.


Wholeheartedly agree.

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  #170 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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tturner86 View Post
Can you name any vendor providing proof?

The only two that I know of are https://www.sundaypapertrading.com/ and https://bluehavencapital.com/ However, the absence of other vendors providing proof doesn't mean that we shouldn't require Books and all vendors to provide proof. If we're going to set that as our standard then I guess "I was only following orders" and "everybody does it is" have to be accepted are legitimate excuses too.

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  #171 (permalink)
 johny1971 
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Does anyone happen to know why Al does not use any volume indicators? I would think, after reading some about volume price analysis, that confirmation from volume of bar's strength or weakness could be helpful. I hope the answer is not because it is unnecessary. I am interested in how he ruled it out.

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Pedro40
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sam028 View Post
Some older BMT/FIO members may remind that the idea of creating a trading room/web site was not Al's idea but some of his book reader's.

This is my favorite post. So running a trading room isn't his "fault"? Got it....

Also, if the consensus here says that we are supposed to make our own systems and trading rooms are worthless anyway, why is BMT promoting Al's room?

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 Forexoil 
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emini2000 View Post
Well, one can easily answer the questions dishonestly if they aren't required any proof. All vendors will claim to make money until you ask them for proof. So just asking really doesn't reveal anything.

i think the cftc would be very interested if Brooks made some claims which turned out to be fake..

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  #174 (permalink)
 Stray Dog 
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Rory View Post
Two cents.. as I'm sitting on my hands waiting to hit target..

So you minding your own business selling your courses and books based on a system that ok, might have worked better back in the day but we all know fixed method efficacy is tidal as the markets vary and people might find a prince or kiss a frog at any one point in time, but thats just life.

Then comes Emmett Moore.

1. Immediately contact a lawyer and make it abundantly clear that your not a broke-ass scammer and if he (an ex-con) even mentions your name you will put him on the street.

Thats about it I guess. Saves getting involved in a lot of BS.

Seems to have done the trick for a couple of big vendors I know who are not listed on TradingSchools...mysteriously...

Edit: And who will continue to remain nameless as they don't want anything to do with his stink. Just because one guy is bad does not make the self-appointed sheriff good.

Which big vendors have threatened Emmett? Are you in contact with these "big vendors" and they've told you that's what they've done or do you know the names of some big vendors and because they're not on tradingschools.org that means they've threatened Emmett with legal action? Are you seriously saying that the job Emmett has done exposing the scam artists in the trading industry is a bad thing? Has Emmett hidden any detail of his criminal past? Is there any part of it that is not written about on his website under the warning tab? How is preventing new traders from being sucked in by these scam artists a bad thing?

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  #175 (permalink)
 Tymbeline 
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johny1971 View Post
I would think, after reading some about volume price analysis, that confirmation from volume of bar's strength or weakness could be helpful.


I'm slightly reluctant to say so, in this thread, in case I'm suddenly "challenged for proof", but I thought the same, and have discovered that the techniques he teaches can profitably be traded from constant-volume bars rather than from timed or tick charts.

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  #176 (permalink)
Rory
 
 
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Last line of my post Stray Dog.

I'm unsubscribing the thread after this message, let Mike have his honeymoon in peace.

Al Brooks will be here soon and can address the concern or not. The CFTC are the regulators, he has stated in the past he trades (or traded at some stage) during the day and if thats untrue, they can do their thing. I recalled this self-description from when I was looking for somewhere to start in Futures.

Its worth noting Al is one of the older educators around and has been CFTC free. Possibly they even looked and found no grounds to proceed. Who knows.

If they find that or other was a fraudulent claim fine, innocent until proven, not troll court.

"The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding." Albert Camus

https://www.speeli.com/articles/view/Why-do-people-fall-victim-to-scams

The Nuremberg defense reference though, truly amazing.

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  #177 (permalink)
 jodistrict 
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Al is the most honest educator out there and he charges a negligible fee for providing a mind-boggling amount of detailed information and insight. How much does a book cost? Or his course which is under $300 dollars? And if that isn't enough, on his website, free of charge he numbers every 5 minute bar of the E-mini session and tells you precisely what it means. He does this every day. He is totally transparent without any hidden tricks. Doing an enormous amount of work and then charging almost nothing for it is not a good business model.

It's interesting that he is the one person that unprofitable traders decide to take out their frustrations out on. Yet, they will be the first to sign up for a $5000 dollar slick course based on some fraudulent list of trades, clever marketing, and a baritone voice posing as a trader. The real reason the trading profession is so low is that we are in the age where everyone's opinion is given equal value and most don't have the eyes to see what is good and what is bad. I grew up in the old school. If you don't know what you are doing, you should just shut up and learn.

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 teee 
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IMO some of the recent posts (e.g. this one) on FIO deserve much lesser attention than they should...

But I guess traders are lonely... and drama helps?


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emini2000
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jodistrict View Post
Al is the most honest educator out there...

Then why not prove it? What is there to hide?

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  #180 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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tturner86 View Post
Can you name any vendor providing proof?

After arguing with you in the Alex post, once again I disagree with your logic. Are you saying the standard should be for people to blindly believe the lies these Scam Artist present?

When Big Mike allows these vendors to present on his forum he gives them a voice of legitamacy. Al Brook's to anyone that is not blind is a typical con artist. He sells books and a trading room yet never provides any proof he can scalp the ES on a 5 min chart. Do you know how rich you would be if you could do what Al Claims he can do. Yet people blindly follow him.

Yes you should demand proof of his claims. It is just so Sad nobody ask for any. No wonder this industry is full on con men.

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  #181 (permalink)
 ktrader 
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jodistrict View Post
Al is the most honest educator out there.

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed is king

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  #182 (permalink)
 grausch 
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JonnyBoy View Post
When I dealt with the CFTC after reporting EminiTradingSchool, I asked them this very question at the tail end of our telephone meeting. They stated that it is not against the law to disclose any kind of brokerage statement for public consumption. As long as the brokerage statement is real, representative of the service being sold and above all verifiable (presumably via the broker). The more disclosure when selling a service the better as far as they are concerned.

Quoting an old post here, but my comment relates to disclosure by educators.

Dan Zanger and Mark Minervini both show their performance records and are both educating. Both of them show the best period of their careers and both of them show it in a way to highlight the best aspects of their performance. Dan's track record was verified by an auditor while I have never seen a proper record for Mark - his numbers are only mentioned in Stock Market Wizards.

If it was illegal to disclose performance in this way, they would have been shut down long ago. Considering the higher profile of both of these gentlemen, it is also very unlikely that the regulatory authorities are not aware of them.

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  #183 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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jodistrict View Post
Al is the most honest educator out there

Based on what? Obviously no proof of any of his claims.

I guess by this logic Bernie Madoff is the most honest person running a Pyramid Scheme.

When will people stopping supporting these con artist that provide no proof of their claims. Until members stand up and demand proof they will be scammed again and again.

Anything else besides proof of ones claims is meaningless.

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  #184 (permalink)
 trader7757 
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The vast majority of my career has been spent trading at the institutional level with a reasonable amount of success. Which is to say no one ever asked me to resign, so my employers must have been ok with my trading performance. I have no opinion on Al Brooks, though I suspect he probably falls somewhere in the continuum of retail trading educators.

Toward the latter part of my career, I experienced a brain fart and decided that retail trading education would be an excellent avenue to explore and hung my shingle out as a trading educator. The fact that I have returned to institutional trading should indicate my feelings on retail trading education. I have been a serial lurker on this site for several years and thought I would finally post my ideas on the premise of most retail trading. Here is my thesis: The notion that you are going to take any single trading course and succeed is false. To expound on that notion, the idea that the average new trader is going to learn to trade, then take a small retail account and consistently make money trading reasonably tight stops (as is the normal retail methodology) is pure fiction. Note: There have been several exceptions in my career to that generalization, but these traders are far and few between.

Why?

It is my opinion that trading encompasses a wide variety of skills and knowledge, most of which is learned through experience and a "style of thinking." You can't teach experience and the "thinking" of successful traders is counter-intuitive to the average individual. As a trader, you have to look forward in time. Our entire formal education experience focuses on historical thinking and present day thinking. Whether it's math, science or any other educational discipline, we rely on past theories, data, and analysis to form present day opinions. Trading often gives the illusion of data adherence, but eventually, the "historical trading" grinds your account into "blown" status. The success record speaks for itself, a 90%+ failure rate for new traders. I suspect the same failure rate exists among traders who have taken a course in trading, or read a book about trading and been personally mentored by a trader.

Traders are fooled by randomness into seeing discernable trading signals.

My advice? Learn as much as you can about a wide variety of trading styles and don't put too much stock in any of them. You should also spend 5 years watching the market studiously and trading. Learn as much as you can about random markets and probability because in the final analysis, that is what trading is about. Journal each trade and classify the entry and exit, then note results. You can get a crude idea of the probability of your own personal entries success/failure rate. Note the type of market each signal occurred. Keep refining that method. Sheesh, it sounds overwhelming. It is. I suspect that Al Brooks's course would be a valuable aid in learning price action trading. Unfortunately, if you focus solely on price action trading you will eventually miss the boat. Does that make the course bad? Nope, not hardly. Price action trading is a piece of the puzzle and you would be wise to learn this style of trading. There may be days when this is the only trading knowledge/experience that will produce results. Is it going to be the way to go every day? Probably not.

Ultimately, my attempt at trading education failed. I couldn't teach experience. I could not trade tight stops consistently (see randomness). I was unable to teach a trader's state of mind. My success rate in trading training was about 25% of the people enrolled. Not very impressive. The failed traders were often pissed off, and I had no answers for them.

New traders want to see results fast. They want to copy trades. They want to make money. No one has a solution for those unrealistic variables. Not me, not Al Brooks, no one; but that is the formula the retail trading business is trying to market. There are no quick results, copying trades is difficult, and the failure rate is abysmal.

Are trading educators scammers? A lot of them are, but I know some that are pretty good intentioned.

For me, returning to trading in the style I learned has produced the results I have come to expect. I can let trades run against me for a bit and not bail. I only need to get the mid-term trend right, and that takes patience and institutional sized trading accounts. Of course, when the market moves with you from the onset, it sure is a lot easier. Be well.

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 rwbil 
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trader7757 View Post
The vast majority of my career has been spent trading at the institutional level with a reasonable amount of success. Which is to say no one ever asked me to resign, so my employers must have been ok with my trading performance. I have no opinion on Al Brooks, though I suspect he probably falls somewhere in the continuum of retail trading educators.

Toward the latter part of my career, I experienced a brain fart and decided that retail trading education would be an excellent avenue to explore and hung my shingle out as a trading educator. The fact that I have returned to institutional trading should indicate my feelings on retail trading education. I have been a serial lurker on this site for several years and thought I would finally post my ideas on the premise of most retail trading. Here is my thesis: The notion that you are going to take any single trading course and succeed is false. To expound on that notion, the idea that the average new trader is going to learn to trade, then take a small retail account and consistently make money trading reasonably tight stops (as is the normal retail methodology) is pure fiction. Note: There have been several exceptions in my career to that generalization, but these traders are far and few between.

Why?

It is my opinion that trading encompasses a wide variety of skills and knowledge, most of which is learned through experience and a "style of thinking." You can't teach experience and the "thinking" of successful traders is counter-intuitive to the average individual. As a trader, you have to look forward in time. Our entire formal education experience focuses on historical thinking and present day thinking. Whether it's math, science or any other educational discipline, we rely on past theories, data, and analysis to form present day opinions. Trading often gives the illusion of data adherence, but eventually, the "historical trading" grinds your account into "blown" status. The success record speaks for itself, a 90%+ failure rate for new traders. I suspect the same failure rate exists among traders who have taken a course in trading, or read a book about trading and been personally mentored by a trader.

Traders are fooled by randomness into seeing discernable trading signals.

My advice? Learn as much as you can about a wide variety of trading styles and don't put too much stock in any of them. You should also spend 5 years watching the market studiously and trading. Learn as much as you can about random markets and probability because in the final analysis, that is what trading is about. Journal each trade and classify the entry and exit, then note results. You can get a crude idea of the probability of your own personal entries success/failure rate. Note the type of market each signal occurred. Keep refining that method. Sheesh, it sounds overwhelming. It is. I suspect that Al Brooks's course would be a valuable aid in learning price action trading. Unfortunately, if you focus solely on price action trading you will eventually miss the boat. Does that make the course bad? Nope, not hardly. Price action trading is a piece of the puzzle and you would be wise to learn this style of trading. There may be days when this is the only trading knowledge/experience that will produce results. Is it going to be the way to go every day? Probably not.

Ultimately, my attempt at trading education failed. I couldn't teach experience. I could not trade tight stops consistently (see randomness). I was unable to teach a trader's state of mind. My success rate in trading training was about 25% of the people enrolled. Not very impressive. The failed traders were often pissed off, and I had no answers for them.

New traders want to see results fast. They want to copy trades. They want to make money. No one has a solution for those unrealistic variables. Not me, not Al Brooks, no one; but that is the formula the retail trading business is trying to market. There are no quick results, copying trades is difficult, and the failure rate is abysmal.

Are trading educators scammers? A lot of them are, but I know some that are pretty good intentioned.

For me, returning to trading in the style I learned has produced the results I have come to expect. I can let trades run against me for a bit and not bail. I only need to get the mid-term trend right, and that takes patience and institutional sized trading accounts. Of course, when the market moves with you from the onset, it sure is a lot easier. Be well.

I agree with a lot of what you said, especially,

"average new trader is going to learn to trade, then take a small retail account and consistently make money trading reasonably tight stops (as is the normal retail methodology) is pure fiction"

What these trading rooms teach is just that pure fiction and it is why they can show no proof of their claims of profitability.

You mention no one can learn trading from someone else, but the subject here is whether Al himself can trade his own method profitable. Or if he even trades live at all.

If Al cannot trade his own trading method profitable then I can guaranty you no one else is going to mysterious figure out how to. And that is the point as far as I am concerned. And the 2nd point is he should not be given a venue to push his non sense teachings unless he can show actual proof of his claims where is makes multi profitable ES scalps on a 5 minute chart and seldom a losing day. I love to see where you are doing that on your institutional account.

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  #186 (permalink)
 trader7757 
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Well, rwbill, since I stated that trading tight stops and a small account results in a high level of losses. I believe it is safe to assume that if Mr. Brooks trades in either of those two misguided methodologies his results might well be delusional. Best of luck in your trading.

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  #187 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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trader7757 View Post
Well, rwbill, since I stated that trading tight stops and a small account results in a high level of losses. I believe it is safe to assume that if Mr. Brooks trades in either of those two misguided methodologies his results might well be delusional. Best of luck in your trading.

Not wanting to pick fights with people I agree with. Too few of them in this industry. I am with you. But not delusional. Purposely brilliant to scam people. Anything that will separate a sucker from his money is what they will tell you.

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  #188 (permalink)
 Seahn 
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rwbil View Post
I agree with a lot of what you said, especially,

"average new trader is going to learn to trade, then take a small retail account and consistently make money trading reasonably tight stops (as is the normal retail methodology) is pure fiction"

What these trading rooms teach is just that pure fiction and it is why they can show no proof of their claims of profitability.

Actually Brooks does not advocate trading tight stops and small accounts. He specifically calls using tight stops "death by a thousand cuts" in his books and videos (and probably in his room). What he does recommend consistently is that the stop must be placed beyond the previous swing extreme, if that is too far away for proper risk management then he recommends trading smaller size or passing on the trading

Maybe if you put the same effort in at least trying to learn price action from what Brooks says as you do in trying to extract "proof" you would be further along in your trading.

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  #189 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
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Seahn View Post
Maybe if you put the same effort in at least trying to learn price action from what Brooks says as you do in trying to extract "proof" you would be further along in your trading.

Now now. You have no idea about @rwbil and his/her trading.

You have made your point more then once. If there are traders that are asking for verification from an educator actively promoted by FIO then sobeit. @Big Mike has stated Al will be asked and I am sure this will set a precedence moving forward depending on his answer. Transparency and honesty can only be a positive thing for FIO. I truly don't know what will happen if Al point blank refuses to verify anything.

This obviously doesn't align with your views, sure, that is your opinion. But don't bring assumptions about another traders effort or make suggestions otherwise.

We can agree to disagree, but at the end of the day we are all in this together and if some folk require that additional layer of transparency, don't knock them for that.

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  #190 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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JonnyBoy View Post
But don't bring assumptions about another traders effort or make suggestions otherwise.

Why doesn't Al get the same respect? Everyone is making assumptions about him based on the comments from Emmett?

Why don't we stop this whole debate until after the webinar? Then from Al's own comments one can decide for themselves.

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  #191 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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Seahn View Post
Actually Brooks does not advocate trading tight stops and small accounts. He specifically calls using tight stops "death by a thousand cuts" in his books and videos (and probably in his room). What he does recommend consistently is that the stop must be placed beyond the previous swing extreme, if that is too far away for proper risk management then he recommends trading smaller size or passing on the trading

Maybe if you put the same effort in at least trying to learn price action from what Brooks says as you do in trying to extract "proof" you would be further along in your trading.

Amazing you know nothing about me and my trading. But this is the typical nonsense defense of con artist. Attack the people who demand proof.

Al is the one selling books and a trading system. He is the one that needs to show proof of his claims. The fact you do not get that speaks volumes.

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  #192 (permalink)
 rwbil 
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tturner86 View Post
Why doesn't Al get the same respect? Everyone is making assumptions about him based on the comments from Emmett?

Why don't we stop this whole debate until after the webinar? Then from Al's own comments one can decide for themselves.


He deserves the same respect Bernie Madoff deserves, IMHO.

I just wonder when Al states what everyone one of these con artist states and that is I do not need to show any proof, are you still going to defend him? I will even step up to the plate. If Al Brooks shows live long term brokerage statements that he is trading exactly as he claims I will eat crow. But as someone who actually understand money and realistic returns on money, there is no way Al is doing what he claims.

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  #193 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
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tturner86 View Post
Why doesn't Al get the same respect? Everyone is making assumptions about him based on the comments from Emmett?

Why don't we stop this whole debate until after the webinar? Then from Al's own comments one can decide for themselves.

Agreed. Let's wait for the webinar to see what Al decides is the best course of action for him to disprove some of the assumptions already made about him.

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  #194 (permalink)
emini2000
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rwbil View Post
Amazing you know nothing about me and my trading. But this is the typical nonsense defense of con artist. Attack the people who demand proof.

Al is the one selling books and a trading system. He is the one that needs to show proof of his claims. The fact you do not get that speaks volumes.

Exactly.

Sad to say, but that's the way it is, attacking the one that wants proof.

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Pedro40
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JonnyBoy View Post
Agreed. Let's wait for the webinar to see what Al decides is the best course of action for him to disprove some of the assumptions already made about him.

A hundred bucks say that he will say yes, he trades real money, yes, he is profitable, but no, he can't show proof because of reasons and blah-blah-blah.

In short, nothing is going to be settled after the webinar, so you guys shouldn't get your hopes that high...

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  #196 (permalink)
 Seahn 
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JonnyBoy View Post
Agreed. Let's wait for the webinar to see what Al decides is the best course of action for him to disprove some of the assumptions already made about him.

My guess is Al will not provide anything in the way of "proof" other than vague reassurances. The reality is he is not under any obligation to do anything especially for a few posters on some internet forums.

The real question is what will Big Mike decide to do if no proof is offered. The final decision is his, but I would predict the number of webinars here will drop to practically zero if some strict proof of performance is required. That will be everyone's loss.

Learning to trade is not getting proof of performance from someone and then blindly following them. Truly learning to trade is a process of being exposed to and trying many different approaches, mixing and matching, experiencing and learning until one finds what works for them. Yes, there are crooks and cons mixed in with the good stuff out there but that is no different than anything else in life, one needs to wise to the possible scams at every turn, there are no guarantees as in life, (actually there is one guarantee of not being scammed by trading rooms, DO NOT GO TO TRADING ROOMS THEY ARE A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY).

The webinars here are a helpful element for learning to trade and it would be a shame to lose that resource especially for new traders because a few insist on guarantees.

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  #197 (permalink)
 rwbil 
Baltimore MD
 
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Seahn View Post
I would predict the number of webinars here will drop to practically zero if some strict proof of performance is required. That will be everyone's loss.

Wouldn't that tell you something Important?? Every regulated financial business must show proof and it is funny how all the ones that do can not accomplish what these Trading Rooms claims to do, yet the Trading Rooms who make these amazing claims can not show proof. That tells you something if you listen.

No one is saying blindly follow some vendor. That is just distraction talk from the real issue. There is one and only one issue here and distractions will not change that fact. And that issue is the person selling his trading method able to even do what he claims. Heck does he even trade live? Because if he cannot do it, there is no way you are going to do it.

What other business do people just blindly follow without demanding proof. No wonder this industry is so corrupt.

And for the poster who said just a few posters demanding proof. You must be kidding. Those posters are the silent majority. You really think members would rather see webinars by self-proclaimed profitable day traders who can show no proof of their claims or webinars by proven profitable traders (and yes that might well be zero). Members want to know the truth. So I say:

Let the Truth be told!!!!!!!

And if you think I am nuts and members just want to blindly follow unproven con artist, then I challenge BM to put up a poll and ask.

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  #198 (permalink)
 Seahn 
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rwbil View Post
Wouldn't that tell you something Important?? Every regulated financial business must show proof and it is funny how all the ones that do can not accomplish what these Trading Rooms claims to do, yet the Trading Rooms who make these amazing claims can not show proof. That tells you something if you listen.

No one is saying blindly follow some vendor. That is just distraction talk from the real issue. There is one and only one issue here and distractions will not change that fact. And that issue is the person selling his trading method able to even do what he claims. Heck does he even trade live? Because if he cannot do it, there is no way you are going to do it.

What other business do people just blindly follow without demanding proof. No wonder this industry is so corrupt.

And for the poster who said just a few posters demanding proof. You must be kidding. Those posters are the silent majority. You really think members would rather see webinars by self-proclaimed profitable day traders who can show no proof of their claims or webinars by proven profitable traders (and yes that might well be zero). Members want to know the truth. So I say:

Let the Truth be told!!!!!!!

And if you think I am nuts and members just want to blindly follow unproven con artist, then I challenge BM to put up a poll and ask.


One more post since I am done trading for the day, really boring market today.

I agree with you 100%, this lack of proof does tell me something about trading rooms.

It tells me I should not be going to and paying for trading rooms and that is exactly what I do.

I suggest you do the same and get on with your life instead of going on this tirade about trading rooms, seems to me you may have been burned too many times by trading rooms. Now doesn't that tell you something?

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  #199 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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I do wish that we would manage a normal level of civility in this thread.

These are only expressions of opinions, not absolute truths to be hurled at an opposition.

Everyone now knows what each side thinks. Now would be a good time to have a certain amount of respect for each other and show some restraint.

I've got my opinion too, and it is probably known by now, so I am not going to put it forward again. At this point, I wish everyone would do the same.

This forum is supposed to be about exchanging trading ideas between people who are basically colleagues, not about fights between adversaries.

There really is no point to continuing this endless back and forth. Let's just let it rest now.

Bob.

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 rwbil 
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Seahn View Post
One more post since I am done trading for the day, really boring market today.

I agree with you 100%, this lack of proof does tell me something about trading rooms.

It tells me I should not be going to and paying for trading rooms and that is exactly what I do.

I suggest you do the same and get on with your life instead of going on this tirade about trading rooms, seems to me you may have been burned too many times by trading rooms. Now doesn't that tell you something?

First once again you know nothing about me. After I realized that trading rooms were ran by con artist, I left them far behind. But I hate scammers and will do everything in my power to let the world know they are scammers and demand they show proof. So I absolutely will go on a tirade about trading rooms, until the regulators get serious and shut these scammers down. If that bothers you so be it. But once again you miss the point or distract from it. It is not about me or any person that has ever been scammed by trading rooms operators. It is about NT or BM allowing these con artist to present a webinar without ever showing a single lick of evidence they have ever traded the method they sell profitable.

Anyone can write a book and be a self-proclaimed successful ES scalper on a 5 minute chart. That is really not hard to do at all. Ah but showing proof of such claims is the hard part.

I wonder when the regulators eventually come in and crack down on this industry and put good old Al in jail will you same the same thing about them.

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