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Jaguar trading club ( w/Ed Abreu

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Jaguar trading club ( w/Ed Abreu

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  #31 (permalink)
Concord, CA
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts and NT7
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: Mini's and CL
Posts: 230 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 967 given, 274 received

Ok...Scalpingticks....I'll take the bait....In what way is this so-called fishy? Just an FYI, Mike keeps a very close tabs on who his memebers are, we (arafg and I) are not related and I have no idea who arafg is. In this case location means nothing.

Arafg, just struck a nerve with me and others over the last few years who have voiced the same concerns that arafg stated.

If you have anything that could be helpful to this discussion it really would be great, remember...what I stated is just my simple own experience over the last 3 or so years.

scalpingticks View Post
Seems a bit fishy all the Ed complainers are from CA?

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  #32 (permalink)
Chicago, IL
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: AMP
Trading: CL, TF
Posts: 41 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 18 given, 43 received

No bait to take I just found it odd that all 3 people with problems are all West coast.

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  #33 (permalink)
Concord, CA
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts and NT7
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: Mini's and CL
Posts: 230 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 967 given, 274 received

@coolriverjoe, to answer your question ..Yes. People do on this site daily. I think Topstep proves that it is possible.
I am not calling Ed a fraud as a trader, can he trade...I think that the answer is Yes, but really we should ask how well does he really trade, and how. He needs to show his live charts and sim at all times in the room, and actually trade either live or sim, while the people who signed up for him to actually look over his shoulder day in and day out. He should not come in the room and say I got my target today, someone take the mic during market times, no one pays to see a newbie trade.

Trading is about pre market prep, determining your areas based on yesterday, and last nights action...if a scalper.
Trading a method that stays within you proper account management. Stick to stop losses, daily target and loss limits. Do not over trade your mental and skill level. As Ed does your acid test prior to risking any real $$. His approach is good, and I have learned from that aspect. But when I pay for a trainer, I want to see everything they have in the written marketing be the foundation to what is taught. Again, look over my shoulder, is a great marketing tool, but if it is not respected then is worthless to a new trader. Traders need to see results that become repeatable results, not excuses. Traders mainly seem to learn by watching repeat behavior that becomes learned behavior. If a trainer does not show that, then how can a new trader trust what they are being taught? I think that is the great disconnect in the trading industry. We need to make people who we give our money to do as they say, and make them accountable. Trading is an acquired skill, I think the Turtles proved that. Traders need the desire and skill to control their trading emotions, trade a system that has a positive expectancy and trade within their accounts risk reward…then and only then will a trader become profitable.

With that I will try to let others take this discussion on or let it go.

coolriverjoe View Post

Fair enough and point understood. Do you believe there is a way to successfully trade?

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  #34 (permalink)
Concord, CA
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts and NT7
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: Mini's and CL
Posts: 230 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 967 given, 274 received

May be the water or lack thereof?

scalpingticks View Post
No bait to take I just found it odd that all 3 people with problems are all West coast.

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  #35 (permalink)
Hertfordshire England
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Trading: DAX
pvlee's Avatar
Posts: 92 since May 2011
Thanks: 96 given, 164 received

I came across Ed's site earlier this year and was impressed by the performance figures posted after his trading each day. I joined as a guest for a few days hoping to work out how he traded. Ed came across as very experienced and very professional. I enjoyed sitting in for a few days but did not take up his offer for membership because I could not reconcile the success rate on his account performance with what I saw on the screen. I would say he had success with around 40%-50% of his trades on mic over the few days I sat in. His off-mic trades were more successful and end of day account performance was impressive.

This is just a personal opinion, but if I could post Ed's figures at the end of the trading day, I would not bother with all the tedium of running a trading room/club to make more money. I'd just trade more contracts

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  #36 (permalink)
Phoenix, AZ
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: CL, ES
Posts: 15 since Oct 2014
Thanks: 78 given, 34 received

I want to begin by stating that I joined Big Mike's Trading Forum solely for the reason to communicate my thoughts regarding the Jaguar Trading Club. I did not know nor have/had any business relationship with Ed prior to joining the club. I am not a vendor. I am not here to promote anything. I trade full-time as a private futures trader. My only reason for taking the time to process my thoughts and share them publicly is for others to have this information to make an informed decision.

As a member of the Jaguar Trading Club, I want to share my personal experience. I was interested in Ed’s blog/trading room for three reasons. First, his posted blog trades are very inspiring. Second, I liked the idea of being able to “watch over Ed’s shoulder as he entered the live market” (as stated on his blog). Lastly, I thought the idea of being on the MIC with other traders watching my trading and getting immediate feedback from Ed would help with my results.

The posted blog trades are amazing. Ed told me this is the primary reason traders decide to join the club. I thought if I could extract just a fraction of what he was doing with almost no heat in any trades, I would be on my way to being a profitable trader. He states (by way of his course outline) that most traders should be able to get to the acid test stage within 4 months and then pass the course after an additional 3 months. I have heard experienced traders mention it takes over 10,000 hours to finally get past breakeven trading.

Ed has an impressive blog record of trading. The consistency alone suggests that market conditions do not change, there is very little adaptation required (both on an intraday as well as on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis), slippage is almost never an issue and that Ed’s mindset is always at or near perfection every day.

Ed stated that there is only one student who has successfully passed his course, gone to a cash account and is now producing profits. Ed’s blog/room has been open for about 6 years and he states that he is able to bring in about 2 new clients per month. Ed’s student failure rate is actually higher than the industry failure rate.

After a few months in the course and following the exact course outline, I could not reproduce Ed’s results (live SIM trading as well as going back and looking at bar by bar over almost a year). I thought maybe I would learn by watching “over his shoulder as he trades the live market”. Surely I was missing something. As anyone who has been in the room will honestly admit, Ed is not able to produce results that are correlated with his posted blog trades. I have consistently been in the room for over a year and have witnessed a win ratio of approximately 48% - basically a coin toss. Why are Ed’s trades that he posts on his blog, with a win ratio that is often 90% or greater (sometimes 100% day after day) so much different than when he trades live? His site clearly states that all trades are paper trades. How can a trader with no emotions tied to a simulated trade lose so consistently when trading the live market? I watched as others traded his setups and they failed (the setup and the trader) at a very high rate. Something did not add up.

Ed will often complain that he is tired or something else and get a member to take the MIC and display their own screens. I will explain how this goes down in my next segment. I have witnessed on numerous occasions when Ed would take a few trades, lose on all of them and then put someone else “on the stage". Later, Ed would comment how he had made all of his losses back never once saying “I am initiating a trade at this price, at this time and this is the reason”. It is always after the fact and never explained. I did not join the club for someone to call out trades but to learn from an experienced, seasoned trader. I have always thought that you learn the most when another trader is losing, not the other way around. Ed also allows other traders to comment in the room when they have taken trades. These trades are always based on stale prices that are constantly “in the green” and have already made their move. It is beyond silly and will only encourage newbie traders to act on impulses and generates no educational value.

Ed also has a strategy where he will lose on live trades, close the room because he is tired or say something like “there is no endless winning” and then post to his blog new profitable trades that he took after closing the room. Does Ed think everyone in the room is a fool? I take my trading seriously. This is not a hobby for me. There have also been a few occurrences when Ed has taken live losing trades and they somehow never are reported on his blog.

I thought by taking the MIC some of my mistakes would be exposed and Ed would provide helpful teaching that would enable me to become a better trader. This is not how Ed teaches. I quickly learned that Ed likes to put traders “on the stage” to belittle them. He often laughs at them and if they make a profitable trade it seems to puzzle Ed. If he knows they’re really struggling, he freely admits to taking the opposite side of a trade as the one being taken by the student/member. Ed states that he often does this. If that is true, how can he provide guidance to help someone who is not doing well if he is monitoring his own trading? It is the same thing day after day in the Jaguar Trading Club.

Others have commented on Ed and his teaching style. I do think there is some information that is good. There is also some really dangerous information that will get a lot of traders in trouble. Trading an inverted risk/reward for 4 ticks with questionable setups is very difficult. All in all, I think it is a wash. My recommendation is to read all of the posts here and if you’re still not convinced, trial the room. If Ed continues doing what he has done for years, you will enter the room each morning and all of his trading will have already occurred and he will be massively profitable. Unfortunately, members never get to see how he achieves these un-human like results. Do not expect something different than what is presented day in and day out in the room if you join and pay the exorbitant $3,500 fee. The information that Ed preaches is readily available on the internet. Learn basic support and resistance, very basic trade management and very basic price structure and you’ll save yourself time and some money.

A member here at BM challenged Ed to trade profitably for a week. If Ed could do that, he was willing to donate $100 to a charity of Ed’s choice. I will take the challenge one step further. Since Ed is a vendor and has posted blog trades that are exceptionally gifted this should be a slam dunk. I will give $500 to a charity of his choice if Ed can trade profitably (live for everyone to see) for 3 days. My conditions are as follows: I want to see the same size that he is currently leveraging, no leverage above where he is currently trading, maintain at least a 70% win ratio (his expectations for any member to pass the course) and an average ticks per day of 250. There is very little downside risk to Ed if the challenge is accepted and his blog claims are authentic. He will gain numerous new members and he will shut up all of us that have chosen to expose the truth. If Ed is unsuccessful, I want a full refund and I will still give $500 to a charity of my choice.

I hoped my $3,500 investment would someday produce results. Since I do not anticipate Ed taking me up on my offer and failing, I don’t expect a refund. I have been in the room this entire week and the negative publicity has brought in new traders. I have a few suggestions for Ed to make the room productive:

1. Open up the room when you begin trading each morning and show ALL your trades. Club members deserve transparency.
2. Please state whether your trades are SIM or cash. You imply they’re all cash. Your site says they’re all paper trades. Which is it? I think regulators would like to know.
3. Treat paying members will some level of respect. We paid you for your time and help.
4. Stop saying you did this or that when other members are trading. No one cares about your record. Members who have joined the club are trying to learn and help each other.
5. Monitor your room and stop other traders from calling out stale trades that have already occurred. It is really lame and childish.

If Ed cannot run a room with some level of competence and professionalism then maybe it is time for him to admit what is really going on, return everyone’s money and trade privately.

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  #37 (permalink)
Posts: 78 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 228 given, 121 received

[To the post above me]

It's simple y'all.

Trading is competitive.
Trading is a game.

Competitive games require skill.

Skill comes from deliberate practice and experience.

Practice and experience requires persistence, passion, curiosity.

Persistence, passion and curiosity require a passion for trading, competitive games and challenges.

Trading is not a mathematical "problem" with a "solution". So stop searching for the "answer".

Anyone who wants to spend $3500 on learning to trade, is just passing on the responsibility of being "skilled" to somebody else.

Trading is for those who WANT control, who LIKE making decisions and who TRUST their own ideas;

Read Market Wizards, Read New Market Wizards, Read Electronic Day Trader Secrets (just interviews)

these amazing traders are...

[1] Very passionate about trading
[2] Very hard working
[3] Trust themselves and their own thoughts
[4] Take responsibility and accountability for their actions.... and WANT to!

If you are considering spending $3500 for somebody else to take responsibility for your trading, save the $3500 and place it into a mutual fund. Or buy a load of put options on GC.

This is basic stuff I'm talking here, I'm no expert.

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  #38 (permalink)
Experience: Beginner
Posts: 206 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 469 given, 201 received

Thanks to all who have provided a candid review about Ed's trading room.

@Jaguar52 really needs to solve all the unhappiness in his trading room, since it seems that he has been misleading his traders.

Ed had previously provided good insights in a different thread on trading and psychology, so it came as a huge shock that he is a poor trader himself.

If Ed cannot resolve this, @Big Mike should step in and consider banning this vendor.

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  #39 (permalink)
Hertfordshire England
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Trading: DAX
pvlee's Avatar
Posts: 92 since May 2011
Thanks: 96 given, 164 received

Ed could resolve all this by publishing, to his members, a redacted brokerage account statement for the disputed days.

But that's not going to happen. Is it?

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  #40 (permalink)
london uk
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Zen-Fire
Trading: Stocks
tellytub's Avatar
Posts: 409 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 333 given, 120 received

Jaguar52 View Post
... If you start out being brain lazy and do not do a significant amount of personal due diligence about this business then you will have a long, hard, difficult, and costly time of it.

Thanks to all the people that have opened up and told the truth here in BM, I guess I've made up my mind.

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