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Trading with the bots (sceeto.com)


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Trading with the bots (sceeto.com)

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  #1 (permalink)
 fourtiwinks 
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Hi futures.io (formerly BMT) members,

Can anyone share his or her experience or views on Carl Weiss's sceeto algos?

His systems use proprietary algos to monitor changes in order flow through detection of HFT trading. Here is the link: ...sceeto

Any insights and comments are appreciated..

Thanks!

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  #4 (permalink)
 fourtiwinks 
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@Big Mike,

Nope I haven't watched it yet. Thanks for the link!

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  #5 (permalink)
 ewex 
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So no one is using sceeto? Kind of surprised there's not been any real discussion about this product, given the focus on order flow trading on this forum. I've still been trying to digest all the complex information provided by sceeto, but the product is really fascinating. Carl (the creator) is a standup guy and there's no hype/false promises in the marketing. Would love to hear if others are trying this product out.

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  #6 (permalink)
 fourtiwinks 
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@ewex,

I'm surprised by the lack of information regarding sceeto as well. I signed up for a free 10 day trial last month and was very impressed by the information that sceeto generated each day for TF. Carl was very quick, polite and responsive with my enquires too.

However, I did not continue on with a paid subscription due to the following:

1. The WOW and WIND index didn't really help in my trading. While they provide the signals for a trader to stay within the trend, I guess I'm too counter-trend in mindset to appreciate their worth.

2. There are many signals generated by the Order Flow indicator that I personally find quite distracting. I didn't know that there are options to turn the signals on/off for sceeto in NT as I was using it on Sierra Chart.

3. I tend to find that the signals lagging at times, i.e. the price move has already occurred before sceeto prints High Frequency Buy/Sell Surge on the chart. I don't think this is the fault of sceeto though, probably more of a latency issue. Still, the Buying/Sellng Waning signals seem to have a better hit rate than the rest of the signals, when combined with the MacDaddy indicator.

4. Not much documentation or clips on using the signals to trade. I guess Carl wants to make sceeto as flexible as possible to accommodate different types of traders, but I wish there is the availability of basic trading systems based on sceeto signals. Carl did provide a few scenerios on his sceeto website, but I feel this is insufficient based on the capabilities of sceeto.

Ok, these are my basic observations on sceeto. I still believe it is a useful tool though it is too advanced for me currently.

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  #7 (permalink)
 Daytrader999 
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For anyone who's interested in further information, they are doing a webinar today at 04:15 PM EDT:

NinjaTrader Partner Spotlight Presents …sceeto

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  #8 (permalink)
 dandxg 
Denver, Colorado
 
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He used to post on Elite Trader about a year ago with his stuff, it was free back then. I tried to use it but it did nothing. I hope he has improved since then. Maybe I will give him another look.

I think the direction EOT is going is the right one, machine readable news. I am not an affiliate of theirs I just think they are good people with better tools than most for sure.

I also think jigsaw had some good tools for detecting HFT, his iceberg indicator and some of his advanced tape reading tools.

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  #9 (permalink)
 dandxg 
Denver, Colorado
 
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I tried sceeto and while I think it has a ton of potential, much improved over a year ago, it still needs work. The screen is cluttered with information and often things conflict with one another. WIND is saying go long, but just after watching Carl's presentation on trade set ups with market rotation he says go short. Or his set up for using MacDaddy conflicts with the other two. It's like anything in trading when you try and be all things to all people you often end up with clutter and confustion. I give Carl a lot of credit though he has some great tools for reading order flow, but needs work.

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  #10 (permalink)
 Deucalion 
Calgary, Canada
 
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dandxg View Post
I tried sceeto and while I think it has a ton of potential, much improved over a year ago, it still needs work. The screen is cluttered with information and often things conflict with one another. WIND is saying go long, but just after watching Carl's presentation on trade set ups with market rotation he says go short. Or his set up for using MacDaddy conflicts with the other two. It's like anything in trading when you try and be all things to all people you often end up with clutter and confustion. I give Carl a lot of credit though he has some great tools for reading order flow, but needs work.

@dandxg, short review but succinct. I am wrapping up a trial of Sceeto. And I give top marks to Carl for diligence, application and effort.

And no marks at all for the product. In the ES, there is sufficient reason to believe that, with more evolution, it may work. In CL, TF and 6E - I found the identification of increase/decrease in order flow incorrect and lagging at best and downright wrong on average.

Since scetto is not a complete methodology (it does not address trade management or position sizing at all - this is huge flaw), it must be used as a discretionary scalping tool. When used as such, and being incorrect on average half the time - it becomes very hard to overcome recency bias.

Potential doesn't count for toilet paper when it comes to professional trading. What sceeto has done because its claims (over reaching claims in my opinion) - is that, it has me thinking I want to try out CQG's trade flow bars and see patterns confluent with OF identification. And delve a little more deeply into OF rather than volume analysis.


Carl claims many traders are using this to enhance (and even create) an edge. I cannot dispute what others maybe experiencing, however it is any traders best interest to be very skeptical when concerned with their own livelihood. Carl has suggested improvements coming to simplify. I welcome that approach - and hope that one day in the future it will be worth another look.

there are a couple of other OF services I am currently studying as well - (and they all claim to resolve and simplify what many older traders called true trading expertise) - that being identifying order flow. The approach to all of them is the same - are they robust? Are they simple? Do they address trade management and position sizing. Without any of these hallmarks, these retail trading boxes are best left for people who want to gamble their accounts.

Edit - Common sense dictates you should be skeptical of my view. Do your trial and research and form your own opinion

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  #11 (permalink)
 joaobucks   is a Vendor
 
 
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I am amazed how the two reviews above agree with 100% in every way my own observations of Sceeto. After cancelling my trial, Carl asked for feedback. I replied:

"I find it hard to provide a critique in light of the frequent training and prompt email response. But I'll say it as I saw it.

No consistent framework of specific indicators to trade day in day out. I certainly can't get confluence of five indicators. And when I did combine just two indicators, for every good signal, there is also a losing signal. I spent a full week on this day and night. I fumbled on it for a couple of days, but then everything was clear. So I don't think that it a matter of not understanding the premises. I have tested and traded many indicators over the years. Sceeto a big disappointment because my expectations were really high after watching Simon's "webinar of the decade." Upon watching Sceeto's videos, I thought "this is it!". But then nothing panned out on my observations. Often I got excited, but then I scrolled back a few days and realized that there is a loser or two for every winner. I will not go over the details of my observations because I am not taking upon myself the burden of proof that this does not work profitably. I tried to see the light of Sceeto up to the last hour of my trial.

I would consider Sceeto useful if you presented a consistent framework of how you actually trade this. Just going over some dots here and there and pointing out this worked or didn't work out isn't enough. Short of providing a trading statement that matches signals over a period of time, there must be a crystal clear model of some specifics setups (specific indicators involved). I couldn't see the profits -- sure there are scattered good signals.

On top of what I saw personally, it seems that *FRED has not lived up to expectations."

*FRED = Front Running the Electronic Devil by The Trading Den, which repackaged parts of Sceeto with a very clever name and Simon Townshed presented it in a sales webinar that he named "the webinar of the decade". Sorry to say, nothing produced any juice.

Sceeto is supposed to be reading robots activity, HFT. But I wonder whether it is just a bunch of colorful (lagging) indicators.

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  #12 (permalink)
 VegasFlyer 
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Carl did ask for feedback, but couldn't help but think of this quote reading your review. Thanks for posting, some of my initial reservations about sceeto have not been abated after reading it. I have not yet done the free trial.

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Billy Madison: Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.


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  #13 (permalink)
 Seberbach 
Midland, Michigan USA
 
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Is anybody aware of some high resolution data history for these indicators? I would not be able to use the free trial period until I had developed and back tested strategies using six months of tick by tick or a year or two of example 1 minute data.

A week of trial in real time is a waste until more time is spent learning with a longer useful span of past practice data.

Since only a few futures are covered, a sample data set up to, say, a day or a week before the current data (delayed) should help bring more serious users into the customer fold.

If the data are very different for different platforms, it may be hard to achieve credible consistency...

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  #14 (permalink)
 phantomtrader 
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I had a trial of Sceeto. Carl is very bright and responsive to questions about the program. The problem I found was that I was not able to come up with a setup that would consistently give good signals using the program alone. I tried to use it within the context of market profile and footprint charts which are my guiding lights but still preferred my own setup and signals. Also, not sure that typical datafeed DSL/cable are fast enough to really provide genuine, real time HFT activity.

I would like to try it again though. A trial period really isn't enough time to evaluate this type of program. I may do so after the first of the year. The concept is very interesting but I need more time to play with it and track the output. I think it's worth the effort.

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  #15 (permalink)
 Seberbach 
Midland, Michigan USA
 
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Regarding Sceeto......

I thought the site was interesting, except one problem:

The McAfee internet threat scanner, which is a free download, reported that sceeto.com is a hazardous site, so I had to delete all the stuff that using sceeto's site installed on my computer. No harm was done that I know of, and I have no report of exactly what part of the entire arrangement might be hazardous.

I would recommend vigilance and caution, however.

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  #16 (permalink)
 dandxg 
Denver, Colorado
 
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Seberbach View Post
Regarding Sceeto......

I thought the site was interesting, except one problem:

The McAfee internet threat scanner, which is a free download, reported that sceeto.com is a hazardous site, so I had to delete all the stuff that using sceeto's site installed on my computer. No harm was done that I know of, and I have no report of exactly what part of the entire arrangement might be hazardous.

I would recommend vigilance and caution, however.

I would highly recommend you dump McAfee it is junk plain and simple. Avast or AVG is much better. McAfee has been known to give lots of false positives. If you must pay then go with Kapersky or Trend Micro.

Sceeto is doing some many complex computations it would not surprise me in the least it would give a false positive.

My views on Sceeto stand though above.

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  #17 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
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Watched some of the videos..so I can answer my own question. They do have it also setup for crude. Just went for the 10 day trial..already downloaded the program.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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dandxg View Post
I would highly recommend you dump McAfee it is junk plain and simple. Avast or AVG is much better. McAfee has been known to give lots of false positives. If you must pay then go with Kapersky or Trend Micro.

I would agree about McAfee. Some years ago , we had McAfee in my workplace's network. There was a virus that kept coming back. It would transfer itself on every file access to a different physical or network hard drive. Even a usb flashdrive would transfer it. McAfee never caught it and it seemed it was infected itself. Finally Kaspersky cleaned it out for good. ESET's NOD32 is also good. Norton has a history of overbloat. But may be better today.

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  #19 (permalink)
 paps 
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I had it for a quarter last year. Carl is great & is good at support. I used it with Tradestation...& probably Ninja was a better fit at that time....since TS did not support sub-second intervals then. It does have indications of retail vs insti buy/sells alongwith other stuff people have already mentioned...but i could not co-relate with my other stuff of vwap/volume, etc....hence thought it may not suit my style. But hats off to Carl....for his dedication for supporting the product. I think there is substance to the product .....but it did not suit my style. I take few trades in a day....& was not sure if the product was right for me. I think if i was a scalper might have been a better fit. Well am not sure....coz i did not put much time into it....as i said had it for a quarter only.

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 Findli 
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I don't find it helpfull.

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  #21 (permalink)
 dom64 
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I find it very useful. One has to understand how to use it and look at it in the right way but is is very valuable in my opinion.

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  #22 (permalink)
 bearpondtrader 
Concord, NH USA
 
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I've subscribed for about a year. Sceeto signals are useful for coordinating entries and exits with the known S/R levels especially as it monitors HFT buying and selling. Also good for counter trend scalp entries and for knowing when consolidation is beginning and ending. It isn't simple but it becomes clear with use. It is important to understand auction theory along with S/R levels to make sense of Sceeto. There is an indicator they sell that has some higher level math for analysis (polynomial regression channels) of the short term trend that is very useful, especially when the market is range bound or beginning to trend. Its called "true data." True data also will display volume at price.
I'm happy with it; also it is real time, not lagging.

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  #23 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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bearpondtrader View Post
as it monitors HFT buying and selling

Please demonstrate to me how "it monitors HFT buying and selling".

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 phantomtrader 
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Big Mike View Post
Please demonstrate to me how "it monitors HFT buying and selling".

Mike

I would like to know that too. I thought their platform was an interesting approach and Carl is very smart and helpful. But I don't know how the software can monitor HFTs. Seems unreasonable. Thanks.

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  #25 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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phantomtrader View Post
I would like to know that too. I thought their platform was an interesting approach and Carl is very smart and helpful. But I don't know how the software can monitor HFTs. Seems unreasonable. Thanks.

My point is, it sounds like marketing and not fact based evidence. I have no experience with the product, but I do have experience with how vendors market their products and how purchasers of said products interpret them to do things they are not capable of doing.

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  #26 (permalink)
 planetmoto 
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Hey guys I wrote a post below, my intention is just to bring to light some opinion of what I gathered from this vendor so I hope no one takes these comments personally, hopefully it will help some less informed newbies in here who may be looking at different systems, strategies and indicator packages make a better fully informed decision when evaluating spending money in this business given the amount of free valuable information one can gather if they put the time in. If anyone wants to troll this post dont bother, if you have an issue with something stated please respond to the post and I will be happy to reply within the futures.io (formerly BMT) guidelines.

Attended a free webinar where Carl is promoting his Beta program special NT8 offer for $1k in which he states the early bird price is just to support the development costs of the product and there is not really any profit in that price...Yes he went there. Which led me to look up some reviews here at futures.io (formerly BMT) to see what the latest consensus was. A friend of mine who works for a prop evaluated the software a couple years back and confirmed Carl seems like a decent person meaning he will try and answer questions on setting up the product and how best to utilize it. That being said he did not subscribe after the trial because he found absolutely no benefit to using it. Does that mean it doesn't work certainly not, it probably has its place among many other useful tools one can acquire for free here on futures.io (formerly BMT) or through other reputable vendors.
When I heard someone ask him about statistical results using Sceeto signals, his response was the heart wrenching, every trader has a different style and they will each have different results, which to me is the ultimate non answer(BS ALARM). I would have respected him more if he had said I just don't know because I ran tests for the past 3 months and they are average at best or I simply don't know because I haven't taken the time to run any type of statistical analysis. I think anyone who understands probabilities and trading knows that results will always be different from different people and even the best strategies/methods are probably going to be in the 50 to 60% range of accuracy but with proper risk/money management is where those numbers increase and separate the consistent trader from the struggling one.

All that being said I did hear him answer someones question regarding taking a trial which he apparently no longer offers...that seems very strange to me? He used to offer it but now stated he cannot offer a trial because he needs to make this project economically feasible for the company and offering a trial would jeopardize that!!!!
He pretty much lost me at that response to someone in the webinar, that is beyond absurd by anyone's standards and I think he lost a lot of credibility on that alone. Like some others posted earlier this system sounds great on paper when you hear a vendor spouting off about HFT and reading Algos seeing what no one else can see almost reminds me of the Wall St code and Haim Bodek. This looks eerily similar to something Barry Taylor has already created in the Better indicators but without all the fluff and false marketing claims. I only mention that because I hear the terms Better Bars and the color candles Sceeto is now promoting and it looked very similar.
In the end I don't believe this system actually has anything to do with HFT at least from the way its presented, vendor may as well say I am looking bid/ask data, tape order flow data or something similar that is easily viewable on any platform. Would a trial make a difference possibly not, most traders will never fully learn a system in a 2wk trial but the issue is when your asking for someone to pony up several hundred dollars or more for an unproven indicator the ethical thing to do is make sure the trader fully knows what he is getting or isn't getting. That is the purpose the trial serves.

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  #27 (permalink)
 SpyderTrader 
Chicago, Illinois
 
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Can you post a screenshot?



bearpondtrader View Post
I've subscribed for about a year. Sceeto signals are useful for coordinating entries and exits with the known S/R levels especially as it monitors HFT buying and selling. Also good for counter trend scalp entries and for knowing when consolidation is beginning and ending. It isn't simple but it becomes clear with use. It is important to understand auction theory along with S/R levels to make sense of Sceeto. There is an indicator they sell that has some higher level math for analysis (polynomial regression channels) of the short term trend that is very useful, especially when the market is range bound or beginning to trend. Its called "true data." True data also will display volume at price.
I'm happy with it; also it is real time, not lagging.


Around 5% move the market. 10% try to follow the 5%. The rest provide liquidity.
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  #28 (permalink)
 bearpondtrader 
Concord, NH USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Broker: Infinity
Trading: Crude CL
 
Posts: 32 since Jun 2012
Thanks: 47 given, 25 received

Sorry guys stopped trading and stopped Sceeto due to family issues. Go back to Mike's comment on 4-4-15. You see what you want to see. Trading the right edge reality of real time is not even close to reviewing the past. Getting back in the saddle without Sceeto..


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  #29 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: nijia trader
Broker: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Trading: ym es
 
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Posts: 668 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 154 given, 396 received

there web sight looks out of date... i took a trail a few years back. i found looking at there stuff was not worth the effort even if it were free. the ideas seemed sound, they just did not work. has any one used there service in the last year to review if they have improved any thing

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 bearpondtrader 
Concord, NH USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Broker: Infinity
Trading: Crude CL
 
Posts: 32 since Jun 2012
Thanks: 47 given, 25 received

I've talked with Carl and they have progressed to something that works, but they are not marketing it; using it for prop trading.


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 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
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I've talked with Carl and they have progressed to something that works, but they are not marketing it; using it for prop trading.

I think you have summed up indicator system sellers. Why would you sell a rare system that works when you can easily sell off the stuff that doesn't work.

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