I know a couple of the guys over there. They seem to know what they are talking about. They are indicator driven and have something to sell. So like all trading rooms, do your due diligence and don't let the name of the group fool you. They don't have some special knowledge from God about how to trade. They have a method that works for them. Will it work for you? Thats the 64K question.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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... a google of devil and futures trading produces the Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy (just out of curiosity)
In 1978 and 1979, lawyer and First Lady of Arkansas Hillary Rodham engaged in a series of trades of cattle futures contracts. Her initial $1,000 investment had generated nearly $100,000 when she stopped trading after ten months. In 1994, after Hillary Rodham Clinton had become First Lady of the United States, the trading became the subject of considerable controversy regarding the likelihood of such a spectacular rate of return, possible conflict of interest, and allegations of disguised bribery,[1] allegations that Clinton strongly denied. There were no official investigations of the trading and Clinton was never charged with any wrongdoing.
"Successful trading is one long journey, not a destination" Peter Borish Former Head of Research for Paul Tudor Jones speaking on conversations with John F. Carter
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I just had a trial in the trading room of cfrn.net . It is "Danielstrading".
The room moderator and trader Michael is a very sympatic and honest person. He knows what he does. He has programmed price based indicators and uses them in the room. He calls trades in advance, you can really be in the trade. He also teaches the system. It is not too complicated, but seems to be good. I recommend taking a trial. They are real traders, they show their DOM.
If you do not have a system yet or if you are looking for tools that help you it is a good room, I think. They help you, you can call them etc. Real traders.
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wow , that's a consistent 8-10% compounded monthly. She should have put that on her primary candidate resume as a top-step futures trader! or maybe not.. should have taught us all how to trade as one of her First Lady initiatives; remember it "takes a village". lol.
When I first saw "Christian Financial Radio Network" and @Tommybaker .... I thought it said Tammy Bakker... of PTL fame ((short for ... Praise The Lord ... or Pass The Loot .. depending on your perspective... ) ...
something looks familiar here.... did this guy sell some kind of slingshot system / indicator in the past.... ?
the indicators were for TS and Ninja. He had specific setups were price returned to some kind of mean where he would then take a countertrend trade.... my memory is really blurry here... not sure if this is the same person or i am just having hallucinations....
Yeah, my favorite is Puretick. That track record is unbelievable! o wait its unbelievable because you cant find one person who says you can even come close to replicating it.
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I gave CFRN's methodology a go for a while, essentially you pay $2k approx. for access to a set of supposedly custom indicators and a methodology for using them. There is a trading room that runs for a couple of hours from the US open; which I think has a subscription charge after the first 3mths.
Although Michael has used his own names for his indicators, they are in fact just standard indicators found in any charting package. What he calls the BBC (Bull Bear Cross) is simply a 21ema. I overlayed that MA on the chart, there is no question that is what it is.
The primary indicator Michael uses he calls the CF_Slingshot. However, it did not take me too long to figure out this one also (although slightly more tricky than the thinly disguised "BBC"). The CF_Slingshot is a combination of a fast and slow stochastic loaded in the same window. Now I am not sure exactly what settings Michael uses but you could play around with the settings to see what works in any particular market. See attached image:
.
This isnt Michael's chart setup, he uses range bars, I am just illustrating the indicator
To trade with this tool you are looking for divergences to get in on pullbacks to the main trend which is essentially the trading method employed by Michael. I have shown a couple of divergence in the screenshot so it is clear what I mean. After you spot the divergence you simply wait for a close above/below a retracement trend line drawn up the lows (for a downtrend) or up the highs (for an uptrend), re-drawing if necessary when you get wicks above/below this trend line. The other entry is a pullback to the "BBC" and a downclose (for a downtrend) or an upclose for an uptrend.
In case you want to replicate the tool here are the settings I used:
Slow Stoch: %K:21, %D:5, Smoothing:7 (shown in red)
Fast Stoch: %K:7, %D:2, Smoothing:1 (shown in white)
In both cases you want to hide the main line and just show its Signal line. Again I played around until I got something that behaved pretty well for the currency pair I traded; these aren't necessarily the best settings.
Michael also uses what looks like a non-lagging ma in addition to the 21ema. Not sure what setting he uses for that but the one I show in the diagram is a 21 period and looks close to Michael's indicator. You look for a divergence following a cross of the BBC by price and the non-lag ma (and then a pullback), so price is trending in the direction of the trade indicated by the divergence. He has one final indicator called a stepline, but he doesn't use that except as a trailing stop primarily.
Does his method work? Some people in the room seem to make money - at least one guy does, his name is Frank. He seems to pull in a sackful of ticks every session. Michael calls his trades and sometimes shows his DOMs (but not all the time). He seems to take some setups and not others, I took most setups I saw and was losing money.
So the bads are:
- you are paying for predominantly standard indicators that have required no or extremely little coding, for which you are asked to pay a princely sum of around $2k or so. There is a certain unchristian lack of transparency here..
- there is little help given to those who are losing money, instead the constant emphasis in the room is making sure the people on the trial are happy and they understand the setups (clearly so that they will part with there hard earnt cash at the end of the week)
- their trade record as reported is not reconcilable with my experience of the effectiveness of the indicators. To be effective you would need to introduce some other concepts, possibly just some basic analysis of S/R levels (no mention of a pivot level or any other price structure/level)
- you are tied in with their brokerage, a small outfit called Daniels Trading who white label the OEC platform (a nice platform except the DOM). My experience with Daniels was a bit mixed, they seem helpful but are also traders and seem a little bit too busy at times (email response for instance was often slow)....I contrast that with an Infinity broker I was also using at the time who would not leave me alone...and I mean that in a nice way, he was always out to help and solve any issue I had. That is what you want from a broker.
the goods:
- he does call the trades he takes.. supposedly anyway, as I said you rarely see his DOMS.
- they run a weekly workshop for all "partners" where they go over the basic setups and nuances plus new stuff that Michael has been working on.
- they have an archive library of all (100 or so) previous workshops they have done. Interesting to see all the previous incarnations of indicators that Michael has invented over the years.
Well that is about all I have to say. For me there were elements missing in their methodology and a bit of over-reliance on indicators. Sure the indicators did give you an edge in certain circumstances, but those circumstances need to be defined a little better in my view. A fair percentage of the setups misfired in my experience.
There is also the non-transparency issue around the "custom" indicators (if you ever join, try asking Michael if the BBC is really just a 21ema...and see what the response is...if you get one). Good luck.
LoneRanger
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My understanding is CFRN's track record is inclusive of all trades taken on the several instruments traded. I am not sure though, that Michael, himself, makes all those trades but others who trade with him. I appreciate the fact that he tells you in advance before he takes a trade and tells you what he is looking to trade. Too expensive for my taste, especially when you can trade a 21 ema yourself on a 4 tick range chart and a divergence indicator.
Ken
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DeWayne entered a trade using OEC's DOM in weekly partners sample made available to the general public. He wanted to buy at a higher price than the market(buy stop) which would confirm the signal. Suddenly he got filled at the market. What happened he exclaimed!! What happened was he entered a LIMIT order. Now, if he was really entering all the trades that he claims that he enters, he would known to RIGHT click which would of entered a STOP order. https://futures.io/images/smilies/animated/faint.gif
These guys are jokes. They are trading SIM. I sat through two weeks of their trade room. Utter and complete junk. They have no understanding of the market and what is really driving price. The trade off their indicators which are lagging and not worth the $3k they charge.
These guys make me even more sick as they fly under the Christian banner. They are just another group of people trying to rob you using whatever label suits them best.
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I also have sat through a few days watching them "trade". I never saw them have one tick of slippage on any of the many trades they made. Once they said they use stop limit orders to get in. Once they said they use market orders to get in. Once I saw the head trader Michael say he got in at a certain price when price jumped 4 ticks in 10ms so he couldn't of gotten in with either a stop limit or market order at that price. A few times I saw Michael say he got in "early" which meant he was probably front running the others in the room (if he was really trading live) and that might be why he goes to B/E at + 4 ticks. Michael goes over the trades he did in the CFRN afternoon program and calls it the "recap". He points out what trades he missed (which is a lot of them for every market he trades). He mostly points out the winners and skips the losers or said he would of been breakeven on the trade. Hardly ever admits a trade would of been a loser. He puts his "trades" in a spreadsheet. If he was trading for real he could use something more realistic I would think. I don't know much about the software he uses to trade with but you would think it would track the trades. They could use Ninja but they don't. I wonder why not? Because Ninja would track the trades. CFRN is also listed (at least in 2014) as one of Dean Handley trusted trading rooms. Most of the 2014 finalists have been found out to be frauds. Also, when they try to get you to sign up they dangle the "partner" trades in front of you implying that these trades are the good ones but they only trade the slingshot trades in the room. The partner trades are all counter trend trades of which none are taken in the live room. If you look back at their videos on Youtube you will see they have changed their indicators many, many times. Or at least added more and more to the mix.
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CFRN uses Open E-Cry. To make a report of the trades: main page, click reports, positions, and order management, Gross p/l summary. You can export it via pdf, excel, or CSV. Even I know that!
So if I were Michael and Dewayne, I'd be mad as a hog without slop! And I'd refute your accusations by posting the Daily Gross p/l Summary.
But why bother, enough people get caught up in their religious rapture of how quick, easy, and rapturously profitable their trading method is. After all, Michail and Dewayne are preachers.
Is there any trading room will post its >>>daily gross p/l summary<<<??
"Dangling partner trades". couldn't have said it better!!
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Another thing CFRN does is they tell you to trade for a $100 a day goal and then stop. And then after you make 2k over so many days/weeks you add a contract to increase your size. But, usually they take 2-10+ trades to make that first $100 goal. They mention in their recap if you made $400 that day and paid $8 a contract (who pays that much?) and had 20 trades you would make $240. If you paid 5$ a contract you would make $300 for the day. BUT when they talk about that first goal of $100, sometimes like I said you might have to make 10 trades to hit that $100 goal. At even 5$ a pop you would then only make $50 that day. They don't mention that at all.
They also "dangle" the thought of making it up to trading 10 lots and tell you how much you would be making if you were trading 10 lots. With beans, oil, Russell 2000, natural gas and gold you could have slippage trading 10 lots. They don't tell you that either.
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Then there are the twitter alerts. DeWayne will go on and on for days about how profitable his Japanese Yen alerts were. Now the Swiss Franc that had 2 $100 profitable trades, and 6 hard stop out $100 plus losses, he doesn't talk about that. If you doubt me, then look it up! May21,2015 trade day gave two 8 tick plus trades and 6 minus 8 tick trades for the Swiss Franc twitter req's. And another thing, you have to stay glued to you monitor for the whole day to get his theoretical results. Some of the alerts were signal with only one bar.
He is a little better than other shysters out there. Is there any trading service that isn't?
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I bought my CFRN membership in early 2014, and have extended my room "privileges" up to this point. Prior to buying in, I took a couple of free trials in their trading room. I have been trading ES, NQ and CL futures for eight years, with moderate success. Trading is my primary income source.
I judge it unfair that Michael and DeWayne claim that anyone can make the same money they make while trading their methods in or out of the live room, and that members (partners) should be making a thousand dollars a day using the methods taught to partners. I have not seen it come to pass in my own trading of their methods, or in the trading of other CFRN members I have met in person.
To their credit, my own backtesting and real-time application of their methods have found the results right at breakeven, not losing. So, over time of proper and literal application, one could expect their account balance to stay roughly where it began, rather than blowing it up. This is better than the run-of-the-mill systems with trading rooms out there today. However, this is not what I signed up for.
Some partners have used the CFRN methods to improve their own systems. Some have even derived new systems from little-used aspects of the CFRN methods, with success. Again, that is not what I paid for.
I do not question Michael's room performance. However well he does for himself, I simply find the performance to be unrepeatable as claimed. This may mean that he is simply a superior trader with a lesser gift of teaching. When one pays real money to learn and apply that which has been demonstrated to be profitable, one expects to reproduce that profitability. Disappointment is a forgone conclusion when, after much diligence to replicate the conditions and apply the methods, in sim and cash, live and in back-testing, such profitability is simply not there.
I do not doubt the sincerity of Michael or DeWayne, but their mild exaggerations of income potential and high expectations of anyone signing up and diligently using these methods, is simply not realistic. I have met several other partners in person away from related training sessions and meetings, and after comparing broker statements with mine, I conclude this opportunity is not profitable for most experienced traders.
Their refund policy, for the membership and extended room privileges, is simple: No. This is why I have not discussed my dissatisfaction with them, notified any other partners that I know or have become acquainted with, or made any noise in their trading room. To what end would such conversations be, since they have not asked me? I take no joy in calling names or labels. This is about money and at least for me, that is business. It either works or it does not. Black or white. No emotions involved in such judgment. Just like I trade.
Because this thread has the pre-existing interest in CFRN, I wanted you to know of my experience with CFRN. For what it is worth.
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Dewayne does discuss this aussie dollar alert. But he skips over the time where he had 4 losses ( --$400) in a row, and jumps to 5:30 am edt May 28 2015 where there is a profit.
If you don't believe me, look up the twitter alerts posted may 27 2015 at 9:09 pm pdt. And look up the after market radio show for may 28 2015 and skip to 3:40 in the 4 hour long broadcast.
Am I the only one that checks these things? I must be "the Dan Qualle discovering the grocery store scanner checkout during his VP campaign " joke of the Big Mike's Trading Forum here.
From what I can tell over 20 days and 4 markets, the Concierge Alerts are profitable 1.3 times to each loss. By the central limit statistical theorem, a sample size has to be at least 20 for statistics to be meaningful. Dewayne goes on and on about getting 10 profitable days in a row in the SIM before risking REAL $$$. So he isn't entirely a bad guy.
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I totally agree with everything you say here, I am also a member. You could make some profits here, but it looks to me like breakeven will be the best most people will do. The system seems to be about 50%, sometimes the market works with this sytem, sometimes it does not. It is very dependent on a variation of a moving average crossover, so that is about what one would expect. They make it sound so easy, but it looks like very few are talking about their great results, only a very few.
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The biggest problem with this method is that you have to scalp for very small ticks, B/E or take an 8 tick loss. The system or method is simply not design for efficiency, especially when you are using a 4 tick range chart. And you will surely rack up commissions following this method without using proper discipline.
Your average trades will be roughly 10 - 20 plus. You need to make $100 per day but can quit once that amount is reach if you choose to. The biggest problem is finding what truly works for your personality, and temperament or style.
This system works well for Micheal but clearly doesn't fit my personality or style so I don't use it even though I purchased it a few years ago.
Some members have found a way to make it work for them but not all.
This is the drawback of how trading works and until you find what works for you you'll be on another search for some other person's method or style. It's a never ending cycle of searching and coming up empty!
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The trading method seems simple enough, and it is represented as such: a glorified 'Slingshot' retracement scalping strategy with a modest profit goal.
Michael is able to manage several markets with the agility that few can. He has an experienced eye to know what he is looking for, and the skill and speed to execute.
It seems to me that the primary factor in achieving positive results is very aggressive trade management.
When I followed along, there were times that I knew his rules would not have achieved the results he represented on some trades. I determined that he sometimes didn't enter on the mini trend line break, but often waited for a slight pullback for a better entry. Then one day, Michael was reviewing a specific trade that would have been a winner, but, "I missed this one because I was trying to enter a couple of ticks better." It was the first time I had heard him admit he wasn't following the simple trend line break entry, but (at times) looked for a slight pullback for a better price.
I have a problem with anyone representing results of a strategy when they don't follow their strategy. The difference 1-2 ticks improved entry can make on a scalping strategy can be significant. And yes, you can miss trades as well. So does it matter? I don't know. It just bothers me when I am diligent to follow the rules as stated, don't get the same or similar results, then realize they don't follow the rules as stated. What else is being adjusted or changed on the fly?
Regardless, this faster scalping style with aggressive trade management may not be suitable for many. Like all trading methods, spend plenty of time on a simulator to determine if you can achieve profitability with just one or two markets at one time. Best of luck.
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These posts are very helpful to me because I am a memeber and trying to figure out how to make this work. Michael does make profits the vast majority of days, I do believe he is trading live and does count his losses accurately because some days there are a handful or more. You do have to be quick to keep up with him, amazingly quick, I am still working on this. I believe if you can hone this skill very sharply, executing trades and drawing trendlines with rapid speed and accuracy, while being very disciplined to take your stop outs and break evens, you can make money with this, I am still working on this because I have not found anything any better. I am also learning volume profile with another system, GTR, but that will take a while to master as well. None of these rooms I have found will enable anyone to just walk in and succeed without a lot of hard work, and rock solid discipline, not easy at all.
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The main problem with this style of trading is that it promotes over-trading. If a person is taking more than 2-5 trades in a day there is something serious wrong with that system.
Even if it works for Micheal!
I can almost promise you that he is not paying the same commission as you would be paying since they seem to promote Daniel's trading firm. Twenty trades on average = $100 in commission using his $5 matrix. Forget the $8 commission because no one pays that these days.
The other issue is how he state a blue day instead of a losing day. If he makes his goal early but finishes down after his two hour trading session he calls it a blue day which utterly ridiculous. If you're trading for two hours it doesn't matter if you made your goal in ten minutes, thirty minutes or hour. Its about how you've finished in that two hour trading session. NET WINS after commission.
This is not a sustainable recipe for success for the average trader, especially if the markets are choppy like the last two day of 11.2.15 and 11.3.15 even Micheal took a hit with 20 plus trades. Check his results for those days. So think about how you would have done trading this method for yourself.
I'm certain your number of trades would have been much higher with greater losses. I myself had a total of 5 trades 1 loss, 4 wins on 11.2 and 4 trades all wins on 11.3 but only took what the markets were willing to offer. I never pushed the trades for maximum gain and I didn't scalp for peanuts either. Its about having an efficient trading system/method that prevents you from over leveraging yourself and taking unnecessary losses.
Too many traders take below average or marginal trades and when the super great trades come they are digging themselves out of a hole. Also, if you have a system that can't differentiate between a below average or marginal trade than that system is not very efficient from the start.
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Please excuse my mentioning that I think that statement might be something of an over-generalisation: I certainly know some long-term, successful, professional traders who routinely take more than 5 trades per day. It depends on one's trading styles, objectives and techniques.
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You are absolutely correct in that regards, it all depends on a person's trading style and personality. And the only to know that is by knowing your true inner self. What makes you tic
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I agree with what you say. I have been a CFRN member for more than a year and I take the same trades as Michael but due to account size can only take 1 trade at a time and when Michael is often in 2 - 3 trades at the same time the one that I'm in usually gets stopped out and between his 3 trades he will usually make a profit overall. He is usually exact in his entry's which he calls in advance and uses a 8 tick stop loss in case the trade goes wrong.
"... In total, I received about 30 emails from people that had either participated in the trial, had paid money to CFRN, or lost money trading in a live account. I even got a phone call from a lady in Oregon that had purchased the program based upon a review she had read about in Futures Truth and how Dean Handley had also written a positive review. ..."
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Hello, I also pray before I work, however I am not trading at this time as I have not found any edge, even with CFRN membership, I am finding it too tricky to wait around for these perfect setups which only happen every now and then, in a big trend with a tight pullback then move continuation, that is the best setup for this system, at least for me.
Any other advice to consistent positive results would be very much appreciated. I like the prayer method, sounds like a winner all around.
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