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  #1 (permalink)
 MWinfrey 
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Anyone with experience with tastytrade.com...

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  #3 (permalink)
 timefreedom 
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MWinfrey View Post
Anyone with experience with tastytrade.com...

Tom Sosnoff is the mastermind / developer behind ThinkorSwim - his knowledge of trading is about as high up the food chain as anyone I've ever been around. Had the pleasure of meeting Tom and sitting in on some of his classes. I listened in to a few TastyTrade sessions and I don't like distractions when I'm trading, but... can't give a higher endorsement... if Sosnoff is involved, it's worth looking into. Hope it helps.

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  #4 (permalink)
 cory 
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but you mention distraction which is often sometime I thought I was listen to Howard Stern show.

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  #5 (permalink)
 aligator 
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Living in Vegas, I have been to several of Tom's presentations and "an evening with Tom and Dave" during various expos. He is Ok , but he has been short bonds now for more than two years, and lost a bunch.

Tastytrade is his new baby after the takeover of TOS by TDAmeritrade put him out of spotlight. Most of the time the show drags on with a lot of irrelevant discussions, small talks, and distractions by his goofy cheerleaders. Then, I simply turn it off. It is directionless, disjointed, and an attempt to make something out of Tom's character. He is a very nice guy that knows options' biz, but no Johnny Carson.

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  #6 (permalink)
 jrob6519 
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hi,
i have been a member (paying) for awhile and will tell you that there is NO BETTER education on trading option strategies and technical analysis that you can actually use than tom, SLM (steve miller) and my favorite, the LIZ and JNY show..

basically they teach to trade options on probabilities and being a premium seller versus a buyer..the do some buying but always using spreads.. i have used their teaching to buy cheap flies on earnings stocks and have had great success.. bought a call fly on AAPL for 3 cents and sold them at 41 cents bought a put fly on PCLN for 5 cents and sold it for 71 cents..i have learned a great deal in trading spreads with them..for $90 a year...come on..

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  #7 (permalink)
 lrfsdad 
milwaukee,wi, usa
 
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I'm not a paid subscriber, but have a roku, so I can watch live streaming on that, but only some replays of the day or from past shows after hours as opposed to regular subscribers. Anyway I find it entertaining and more importantly educational. Instead of analyst after analyst then commercials, It's a full 6 or 7 hours of trading probabilities and techniques mostly on stocks and options taught by vetrean cboe traders. Index and fx futures get discussed as well. They do touch a bit on the news such as earnings and typical mkt reports.
They use the TOS platform for their trades, which makes it more helpful for that platform's users.
Instead of commericials there are small (usually comical) skits, inbetween shows or at break.
I don't usually watch the full day though as I'm typically entertaining a toddler when home trading who prefers a different type of programming. LOL
If your the type to have a financial network on all day, I would recommend giving it a try. not sure if there is a free preveiw though.

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  #8 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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If you have a live TD Ameritrade account, you can apply for a free Tastytrade membership waiver good until May 2014.
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/members-benefits
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/get-trading

This thread helped remind me I have a free membership due to having been on TOS for a while. But I hadn't watched it lately. I would say my favorite show on the site/channel is the Liz and Jenny show too. They spend most of the time talking about the option details and sample trades in a good compressed hour. They knock their ideas off each other making sure they both get the details right, plus other suggestions that come up, which I think benefits the viewer. The other shows on the site just go off topic far too much.

Today, they are starting over in their tutorial first half hour starting from the basics of options again. So it's a good intro for newcomers to options if they start catching the show. https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/LJ/episodes/130312_LJ

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/LJ

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  #9 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Tastytrade is free to watch now. They no longer require paid subscriptions. One can watch the live streaming show and catch all of their segments including the excellent Liz and Jenny show (12pm EST) on options which they are now also spending more time in teaching the basics of options. And to see archived videos only an email registration is required. Enjoy!

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/live
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/LJ
https://www.tastytrade.com/

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  #10 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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A little update. Just wanted to add that in general Liz and Jenny and sometimes their associate Tom Preston who's also a co-founder of Thinkorswim don't go over or subscribe that much to directional TA of the stocks. Rather they look at volatility, option pricing and ways to optimize option and option spread positions through option strike placement strategies. It's still an excellent education on learning about and how to place option positions but learning about directional analysis of stocks is not what the Liz and Jenny show is about. The show right after "Ask SLM" goes over directional TA. And of course there are other places and resources to learn to have a directional bias.

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  #11 (permalink)
 lrfsdad 
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Any of you tasty traders tried the BOB the trader app? Feedback?

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/

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  #12 (permalink)
 rmejia 
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I love the tastytrade Market Measure show, never miss it. The other shows I watch when I can. There's a lot of good stuff there, incredibly all for free. Tastytrade took my options learning curve parabolic.

I've tried Bob The Trader, it's pretty much like the app preview only with the actual trades. It's alright if you want to see exactly what trades Tom Sosnoff puts on, they are real time. I subscribed to see the trades and how he applies what they teach about options to actual trades. I work full time so can't be watching the show all day, only at night and miss the trades they do during the day. He puts on a lot of option trades, but most of the trades seem to be index futures trades.

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  #13 (permalink)
 blb014 
Dallas, Texas
 
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rmejia View Post
I love the tastytrade Market Measure show, never miss it. The other shows I watch when I can. There's a lot of good stuff there, incredibly all for free. Tastytrade took my options learning curve parabolic.

I've tried Bob The Trader, it's pretty much like the app preview only with the actual trades. It's alright if you want to see exactly what trades Tom Sosnoff puts on, they are real time. I subscribed to see the trades and how he applies what they teach about options to actual trades. I work full time so can't be watching the show all day, only at night and miss the trades they do during the day. He puts on a lot of option trades, but most of the trades seem to be index futures trades.


For sure, I tried to catch it when I can. Good stuff and entertaining.

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  #14 (permalink)
 blb014 
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lrfsdad View Post
Any of you tasty traders tried the BOB the trader app? Feedback?

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/

I have the app downloaded but its $99 for a 30 day subscription so I haven't done it yet. I have follow quite bit of Sosnoff's trades over the years and a lot his trades are low risk type trades like debit spreads. He's got 3 decades of trading experience and he's always preaching about delta risk, position sizing, probabilities, volatility. He's not into TA and just a different mindset more of a finance background than a computer programmer TA trader.

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 BeachTrader 
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I tried BOB the trader for a couple of months. I entered most of his option trades. He also trades a lot of futures but I didn't take those. Tom is a contrarian trader, selling perceived tops and buying perceived bottoms. That was a little against my style as I prefer to go with the trend. Anyway, I ended up losing money in the options trades over the 2 months. Not a lot and I did learn how he adjusts trades etc. But the style didn't suit me. But I love the tastytrade site. There is a lot of good free stuff there.

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  #16 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Some news about Tastytrade and Tom Snosoff's trades:
TastyTrade - Page 25 - Elite Trader

I would agree their track record and trade calls aren't really marginally profitable. They seemed to have
always fallen back on "50/50" as they don't promote any claimed edge. What they claim helps is learning
to do options very "effectively".

So yes, still a good show to learn how to do options and follow along and practice their trades in sim.
Maybe the best free education out there by media now. But one would be better off finding their
own portfolio of symbols to trade and using their own "edge" method, and then use the option techniques
like picking a particular tool setting.

I should follow up to what I posted earlier on this thread that following sim, I wasn't making "sim" net profit either.
One of their sometimes-hosts "Tom Preston" claimed 20% gain last year on his own personal trading while Jenny
claimed less. (i.e. expect "typical" disappointing 'mutual fund' results) Even if they had an working "edge" directional
method I suspect it still wouldn't be shared publicly on their shows.

Still a lot of great free instruction and follow-along and teaching on the TOS platform. Learning to set
up this kind or that kind of credit spread, or a more conservative spread, or a call based on lower vol, or something
else based on higher vol etc, i.e. the option context environment.

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  #17 (permalink)
 suko 
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I don't know nothin' bout options but I am intellectually curious.

Tom's show on "Statistics vs Probability" blew the top off my head.


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  #18 (permalink)
 NLD1888 
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Hi,

When I started trading since mid 2009, I've paid my dues by signing up a few advisory services which I thought can help me become a better trader. The next 3.5 years has made me realized the followings:

1. There is no holy grail in trading & most who claimed to have a very profitable system usually means it is too good to be true. Run away from them.

2. There are many workable systems out there. Unfortunately, it may not be suitable or fit your style of trading.
Eg, I did not follow all the recommended trades that was advised by the services, either it is too much to commit or the trades do not fit my style of trading.

3. By the end of 2012, I've decided to unsubscribe all the services and learnt to develop my own system which suits my style. For 2013, I've adopted swing trading based on a book I've read authored by Brian Shannon. The new trading system that I've developed was also been influenced by the teachings from Van Tharp, Kevin Darvey & the many knowledge found in futures.io (formerly BMT). So far, the investment spent to being a futures.io (formerly BMT) elite member bears the best returns. In 2013, I was able to make 10%+ profit. This is also the 1st time I have made $$$ from my own developed system.

4. In 2014, I've moved to trading options after watching & learning quite a lot from TastyTrade. Depending on your style & preference of trading, there are many option strategies to choose from. For me, majority of my option trades are short strangle, focusing on selling premiums during high IV environment. I also do binary event during earnings.

As I've mentioned above, there is no holy grail in trading. I think one has to find what suits your trading style. It is important to trade according to one's plan because a well followed trading plan on a system with positive expectancy will result in a profitable outcome.

I'm not concluding that both the systems mentioned above will suit everyone, or the systems have no flaws.

So far, I am able to trade the systems because they suit my style of trading.

Just remember again there is no holy grail. Learn enough to know what risk you are having when you put on a trade, whether it be stocks/ETFs or options.

I hope the sharing of my experience help fellow traders out there. I've been through the frustrated route of learning to trade, not to mention the costs incurred. I hope you will not waste unnecessary money like I did.

NLD

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  #19 (permalink)
 sands 
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The guy definitely knows his stuff, but that knowledge isn't accessible unless you already know a lot about options. E.g., not for beginners. The topics/conversations are definitely interesting insights for existing participants in this field.

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 NLD1888 
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It's possible to learn to trade options.
Learn about options trading via TastyTrade is one way.
There are many hours of recording in archive which you can watch & learn, though I have to acknowledge the hours is quite a long one. For beginners, you might want to start off looking at Where Do I Start?
I will also suggest that you pick up books from the library about options trading to learn some basic terminology and definitions to complement it.
Understand what's the risk involved in options trading. It looks scarier especially for stock traders (I used to be one of them too).
In reality, trading both instruments involved risks. Just learn to know what those risks are & what returns are expected to take those risks.
Take note that TastyTrade's main theme is about selling options & not so much about buying options.
It's also about being active in managing winners, and sell premiums in high IV environment.
To manage the risk, the key is to trade small & have high occurrences.
As shorting calls/puts options has high risk, staying small gives you the means to manage the position when it goes against you.
Personally, I don't think options trading is suitable for everyone.
Learn enough from books & TastyTrade to see if it is your cup of tea.

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 josh 
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sands View Post
The guy definitely knows his stuff, but that knowledge isn't accessible unless you already know a lot about options. E.g., not for beginners. The topics/conversations are definitely interesting insights for existing participants in this field.

About 18 months ago I knew practically nothing about options. Being forced to learn, I used TT as one resource. If you know nothing about options and try to listen to a random segment, it's of course confusing. But they do have some beginner segments which I used when I was first learning. I always had a bit of a psychological barrier for some reason with options; granted, there's a lot to know, and I use mostly simple plays now when I trade them, and real options experts know that it's an entire field of trading unto itself, BUT you have to start learning somewhere, and TT is a good resource. Most traders seem to be allergic to options and I totally get it, but they can be learned and IMO every trader, equities/futures/otherwise should know how options work. I'm sorry it took me so long to do it.

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 NLD1888 
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Josh,

Well said. I also went through the same path. Initially, I was rather confused when I listen to TT. Frankly speaking, they are not obliged to structure the info like a book on options trading. I actually read a few books to learn about the basic of options. I even went to IVolatility.com which provides some sort of text book style of learning. Then when I return to watch TT, everything makes more sense & I can follow them.

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 sands 
London + UK
 
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josh View Post
About 18 months ago I knew practically nothing about options. Being forced to learn, I used TT as one resource. If you know nothing about options and try to listen to a random segment, it's of course confusing. But they do have some beginner segments which I used when I was first learning. I always had a bit of a psychological barrier for some reason with options; granted, there's a lot to know, and I use mostly simple plays now when I trade them, and real options experts know that it's an entire field of trading unto itself, BUT you have to start learning somewhere, and TT is a good resource. Most traders seem to be allergic to options and I totally get it, but they can be learned and IMO every trader, equities/futures/otherwise should know how options work. I'm sorry it took me so long to do it.

I do think a lot of people miss that fact, that Options are a field of their own compared to more vanilla trading, very true. In terms of places to start I think there are some really good books/materials out there that I'd recommend like John Hull, or Paul Wilmott as a primer. I'm generally jaded by the quality of online materials because in my experience it tends to be harder to find quality suppliers of it e.g., material that is both focused as informative to what I wanted to learn at least. Although I think most people that are successful find it is self driven (as I think both of us have found) essentially that with all the materials out there you do get out what you invest intellectually. So can start anywhere whether their materials are great / poor and find a path through to their end goal. Glad you've found your way through the jungle!

Sands.

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Pedro40
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So basicly they teach you how to drive a car (to use options), but not how to win a race (to be profitable)?

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 josh 
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Pedro40 View Post
So basicly they teach you how to drive a car (to use options), but not how to win a race (to be profitable)?

Is that a real question, or some conclusion you have drawn from the discussion in the form of a question?

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Pedro40
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josh View Post
Is that a real question, or some conclusion you have drawn from the discussion in the form of a question?

Well, what do you think? Is that a real question or a hypothetical?

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  #27 (permalink)
Pedro40
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Direct quote from the master:

" "TastyTrade's mantra is all about Probabilistic Investing for Probabilistic Outcomes .... but as we have shown, it doesn't mean you will make money!"

So the guy is a real hack and we are supposed to subscribe to his radio show and learn something? He is a very good example that the real money in trading is in services like market making or running educational shows or message boards. Those always make money, unlike traders....

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 gfmatt 
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Pedro40 View Post
Direct quote from the master:

" "TastyTrade's mantra is all about Probabilistic Investing for Probabilistic Outcomes .... but as we have shown, it doesn't mean you will make money!"

So the guy is a real hack and we are supposed to subscribe to his radio show and learn something? He is a very good example that the real money in trading is in services like market making or running educational shows or message boards. Those always make money, unlike traders....

Pedro, you are way off base here. TastyTrade is FREE. Tom Sosnoff is the owner and his wealth far exceeds $100 million. He was a co-founder of ThinkorSwim before it was bought out by TD Ameritrade.

Having said that, and as a regular viewer of TastyTrade, it is an excellent place to learn about option strategies - even for newbies. These guys are very transparent.

The BIG problem with Tom and his yes-man, side-kick, Tony is that in addition to probabilistic trading strategies (which are fine) is the fact that they also take Big directional positions in futures with no stops. Currently Tom is short huge ES positions that he has been accumulating since the high 1600s. His average cost on the shorts is probably in the 1750 range. He is currently taking more than 200 points in heat on the ES. He did the same thing a few years ago on bonds, taking ridiculous heat for years before it finally worked out for him.

The strategy may work for him, as he has 100s of million dollars in the bank, but for any normal trader this is suicide.

The viewers who learn the proper delta neutral, time-decay stategies will do fine, but the viewers who also follow his contrarian approach to directional trading aren't doing well. To a large degree, Tom's directional trades make the show much more interesting BUT the viewers who try to emulate him will not fare well. The show is highly entertaining, just don't believe in the Contrarian BS that is constantly spewed on the show.

My advice is to watch the show as entertainment (Vonetta Logan is hilarious), but listen to guys like Dan Sheridan if you want to set up an income-generating options business.

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  #29 (permalink)
Pedro40
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
 
 
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gfmatt View Post
Pedro, you are way off base here..... for any normal trader this is suicide.

OK, let's see who is off base here:

1. Tom's wealth didn't come from trading profits, he sold ToS. So rather irrelevant to the conversation.
2. TT might be free now but it wasn't a year or so ago. I apologize if I am not up to date on it, but if he is a multimillionaire, why did he sell subscriptions? (or better yet, why would anyone pay him 1000$ a year?)
3. Isn't this the definition of hack?: " is the fact that they also take Big directional positions in futures with no stops."
And why is he taking those bets in futures if he is an option expert? As long as he can not show at least a slight positive return in options, he qualifies as a hack.
4. The show might be highly entertaining, but so are Nascar crashes.

Recap from the past:

"So Tasty Trade could put you back $90/month if you didn't know any better. "

https://inthemoneytrades.blogspot.com/2013/01/tasty-trade-free-option-trading.html

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  #30 (permalink)
 rmejia 
Puerto Rico
 
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gfmatt View Post
Currently Tom is short huge ES positions that he has been accumulating since the high 1600s. His average cost on the shorts is probably in the 1750 range.

Where did you get this info from? Where can we see his current positions?

I subscribed to Bob and saw that he does many futures trades, but it was very active buying and selling, scalping round the clock. Seems strange he would be short a "huge ES position" when he constantly preaches to trade small and trade often. It seems the only trades they do are countertrend but they do average down and trade very actively. I don't doubt that he has been selling the ES since the 1600's but would not be surprised if the has averaged all the way close to where we are now scalping all day every day. He seems to average around 100 trades a week, when I subscribed it seemed about half of them where futures scalps.

I subscribed to see the options trades though. I have no idea what strategy he uses for futures, he does not put a lot of emphasis on it on the show. I don't follow those. He has said it's just to keep engaged in the market. I've always been under the impression he does it for fun, to throw around a few dollars for kicks and giggles.

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  #31 (permalink)
 gfmatt 
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Pedro40 View Post
OK, let's see who is off base here:

1. Tom's wealth didn't come from trading profits, he sold ToS. So rather irrelevant to the conversation.
2. TT might be free now but it wasn't a year or so ago. I apologize if I am not up to date on it, but if he is a multimillionaire, why did he sell subscriptions? (or better yet, why would anyone pay him 1000$ a year?)
3. Isn't this the definition of hack?: " is the fact that they also take Big directional positions in futures with no stops."
And why is he taking those bets in futures if he is an option expert? As long as he can not show at least a slight positive return in options, he qualifies as a hack.
4. The show might be highly entertaining, but so are Nascar crashes.

Recap from the past:

"So Tasty Trade could put you back $90/month if you didn't know any better. "

IN THE MONEY TRADES: Tasty Trade - Free Option Trading Education


I am not arguing with you, my only point is that Tastytrade is free for viewers. Tastytrade is a financial network with 60 full-time employees offering lots of solid information on options for free. The Market Measure segments are almost always excellent. Watch if you want to, there are no obligations to spend a single dime.

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  #32 (permalink)
 gfmatt 
Edmonton, Alberta
 
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rmejia View Post
Where did you get this info from? Where can we see his current positions?...

I've always been under the impression he does it for fun, to throw around a few dollars for kicks and giggles.

You can't see his positions or size, only his trades. He has mentioned before that he started shorting ES around 1680 and with a few averaging up plus the profits from his smaller scalps, he has raised his average cost. He mentioned at a later point that his basis was in the mid-1700's. Possibly he has got it up to 1800 or higher but I doubt it. That is the one area where he is not fully transparent.

I agree he does it for fun, but he has stated that his ES position is very large (just like his bond position was a few years ago).

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  #33 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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Pedro40 View Post
2. TT might be free now but it wasn't a year or so ago. I apologize if I am not up to date on it, but if he is a multimillionaire, why did he sell subscriptions? (or better yet, why would anyone pay him 1000$ a year?)
3. Isn't this the definition of hack?: " is the fact that they also take Big directional positions in futures with no stops."
And why is he taking those bets in futures if he is an option expert? As long as he can not show at least a slight positive return in options, he qualifies as a hack.

I watched it for the first time more than a year ago, and it was free then. They have a paid service that lets you see all their positions in real time, I think, but the actual "channel" is free and has been for as long as I've seen it. I don't watch it but I catch youtube clips, and it's tons better than CNBC or FBN or any of the other distractions that teach people nothing at all. Just watch "options action" on Friday 5:30pm ET on CNBC and compare it to any segment on tasty trade and you'll see which one contains more actionable, useful information.

One of the things I really appreciate about him is that he is willing to adapt. For example, in the past he did did not look at where the IV of an option ranked historically (for example, an IV of 50 may be "high" but still the lowest for that issue in the past 12 months). But after doing a number of studies, he found that the IV rank is a vastly important measure of how a trade will perform, so he uses it extensively now. They are constantly doing studies to challenge their own status quo, and are actually willing to change. This is an admirable quality for someone who is as experienced and has been in the business for three decades.

I'm not sure if you have actually ever listened to Tom Sosnoff, but if you did, you'd realize that you can learn a lot from him. By "listen," I mean put away your negative opinion, which seems to pervade so many of your posts, and actually try to learn something, without filtering it through your negativity. It's truly laughable that you're calling a 30-yr options trader a "hack."

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  #34 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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josh View Post
I watched it for the first time more than a year ago, and it was free then. They have a paid service that lets you see all their positions in real time, I think, but the actual "channel" is free and has been for as long as I've seen it. I don't watch it but I catch youtube clips, and it's tons better than CNBC or FBN or any of the other distractions that teach people nothing at all. Just watch "options action" on Friday 5:30pm ET on CNBC and compare it to any segment on tasty trade and you'll see which one contains more actionable, useful information.

One of the things I really appreciate about him is that he is willing to adapt. For example, in the past he did did not look at where the IV of an option ranked historically (for example, an IV of 50 may be "high" but still the lowest for that issue in the past 12 months). But after doing a number of studies, he found that the IV rank is a vastly important measure of how a trade will perform, so he uses it extensively now. They are constantly doing studies to challenge their own status quo, and are actually willing to change. This is an admirable quality for someone who is as experienced and has been in the business for three decades.

I'm not sure if you have actually ever listened to Tom Sosnoff, but if you did, you'd realize that you can learn a lot from him. By "listen," I mean put away your negative opinion, which seems to pervade so many of your posts, and actually try to learn something, without filtering it through your negativity. It's truly laughable that you're calling a 30-yr options trader a "hack."

I have been watching TT for about a year now and they have really opened my eyes to the options game. I still do not have anything I can do or trade for Options. But I have a much better understanding of how they work and why traders will use options.

It has been completely free in terms of the videos since I first watched them. I agree spending 30 mins on a TT video is better then wasting time on CNBC or Yahoo Finance (which I am still guilty of doing from time to time.) Although Seeking Alpha is my new time waste at the moment.

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  #35 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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tturner86 View Post
I have been watching TT for about a year now and they have really opened my eyes to the options game. I still do not have anything I can do or trade for Options. But I have a much better understanding of how they work and why traders will use options.

It has been completely free in terms of the videos since I first watched them. I agree spending 30 mins on a TT video is better then wasting time on CNBC or Yahoo Finance (which I am still guilty of doing from time to time.) Although Seeking Alpha is my new time waste at the moment.

If anyone has the ear of someone over there and can get them to email me, I'd like to invite them to do some webinars on futures.io (formerly BMT).

Mike

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  #36 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
Chicago, Illinois
 
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NLD1888 View Post
3. By the end of 2012, I've decided to unsubscribe all the services and learnt to develop my own system which suits my style. For 2013, I've adopted swing trading based on a book I've read authored by Brian Shannon. The new trading system that I've developed was also been influenced by the teachings from Van Tharp, Kevin Darvey & the many knowledge found in futures.io (formerly BMT). So far, the investment spent to being a futures.io (formerly BMT) elite member bears the best returns. In 2013, I was able to make 10%+ profit. This is also the 1st time I have made $$$ from my own developed system.

In a similar fashion, I also read some Van Tharp and Brian Shannon is a big asset with his (hard cover only) book lol. That is part of the reason why I couldn't really get on board with TastyTrade to be honest. TastyTrade definitely puts a greater emphasis on Probability of Expiring worthless and the likes, but to be that stuff is irrelevant when a good pattern comes along imo. Also, for the average credit spreads, the reward never warrants the risk imo.

I like Sosnoff as a character though, fun to listen to talk to and ramble on about any and everything. I remember back when he used to have Weekly wrap-up analysis on ToS back in the day. They are archived as well on the platform if I remember correctly. With that said, I'd say brush up on trend trading, grab a highlighter, and go to town on a copy of 'Options As A Strategic Investment'. Imo that is the bible of Options Trading and what really makes you get options strategy.

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  #37 (permalink)
Pedro40
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josh View Post
It's truly laughable that you're calling a 30-yr options trader a "hack."

I appreciate the personal attacks, but let's keep it on topic. Did he make his millions by trading options? He did not. Is his option trading record on TT profitable? It is not.

So what does 30 years of option trading experience gave him? That he knows the lingo and able to talk about options in an entertaining way? I still stand by my earlier post, he is going to teach you how to drive a race car, just not how to win the actual race.

I mean if some of you find the show worthwhile to listen to, do it by all means. Just don't bring up his millions as evidence of his expertise. But I agree, he is an excellent business man, he has just raised 25 million from a venture capital firm for popularizing options.

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  #38 (permalink)
 suko 
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Tom is like one of those owners on Kitchen Nightmares who also thinks he himself is a chef and insists on running the kitchen. He loves to cook but he's lousy at it.

Tom should hire a talented anchor (a Tim Sykes?) and then confine himself to the stuff he's good at.

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  #39 (permalink)
 empty 
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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suko View Post
I don't know nothin' bout options but I am intellectually curious.

Tom's show on "Statistics vs Probability" blew the top off my head.

@suko thanks for sharing that. I've never thought of it how they present it but it's definitely eye opening.

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  #40 (permalink)
 suko 
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empty View Post
@suko thanks for sharing that. I've never thought of it how they present it but it's definitely eye opening.

I always benefit from the stuff the TT research team comes out with.

One of my goals for 2015 is to make a long march through the WDIS (options newbie learning) archive with Tony and Katie. I watched a number of the Tom and Case WDIS shows. Both of these series are highly educational.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/wdis-back-to-cool/episodes/check-out-our-new-segment-and-meet-katie-09-16-2013?locale=en-US

I also completed the options trading certificate program through dough.com. This program is a combination of video lectures, WDIS episodes, and hands-on interactive tutorials, followed up by quizzes. I have not seen a more innovative online learning environment for trading.

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  #41 (permalink)
 suko 
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QUESTION: on trader performance. [I am not interested in Tom's trading or in subscribing to Bob]

I want to see what I can learn from the trading of young TT traders like Alex (13) or Katie. I get a kick out of the idea of learning from a 13 year old.

If you look at the "follow" screen on dough.com, it gives the YTD stats for the various traders, expert to novice.

https://trade.dough.com/demo#/followPage

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

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  #42 (permalink)
 empty 
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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suko View Post
One of my goals for 2015 is to make a long march through the WDIS (options newbie learning) archive with Tony and Katie. I watched a number of the Tom and Case WDIS shows. Both of these series are highly educational.

I'm right there with you. Planning to start in 2015 sometime. I've been making my way through the WDIS videos with Tony and Katie for the past couple of months. It'll be a nice addition to my overall portfolio of strategies.

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  #43 (permalink)
 gfmatt 
Edmonton, Alberta
 
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suko View Post
QUESTION: on trader performance. [I am not interested in Tom's trading or in subscribing to Bob]

I want to see what I can learn from the trading of young TT traders like Alex (13) or Katie. I get a kick out of the idea of learning from a 13 year old.

If you look at the "follow" screen on dough.com, it gives the YTD stats for the various traders, expert to novice.

https://trade.dough.com/demo#/followPage

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

No, no, no!!!!

Katie is down on the year I believe. I don't have Dough on my current computer, but I don't believe those are actual returns, but represent potential ROC of the currently held positions. Case is still down after 2 years because she follows some of Tom's contrarian plays (hello NQ at 3650).

Katie and Case would be much better following a systematic approach like say Dan Sheridan rather than their "contrarian masters" Tom and Tony. They know options, but their macro bets are leading people to losses, including Katie and Case.

There is a fundamental disconnect in their trading. The say they believe in random markets - and their delta- neutralish trading is good. But then they get stuck in these contrarian plays and their performance suffers.

You can't be a contrarian AND believe in random markets. (edit: Jacob has tried to show them that yes, VOL is mean-reverting , BUT prices aren't necessarily)

But their bad trading makes the show more entertaining.

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  #44 (permalink)
 suko 
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gfmatt View Post
No, no, no!!!!
Katie is down on the year I believe. I don't have Dough on my current computer, but I don't believe those are actual returns, but represent potential ROC of the currently held positions. Case is still down after 2 years because she follows some of Tom's contrarian plays (hello NQ at 3650).

Thanks. I somehow suspected that was the case -- "When something looks too good to be true..."

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  #45 (permalink)
 lrfsdad 
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suko View Post
QUESTION: on trader performance.

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

99.9% sure TROC stands for tastytrade return on capital. I would email support through dough.com or tastytrade.com for clarification. No Idea on p&l for any of the girls or Tom and Tony for that matter.

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  #46 (permalink)
 suko 
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lrfsdad View Post
99.9% sure TROC stands for tastytrade return on capital. I would email support through dough.com or tastytrade.com for clarification. No Idea on p&l for any of the girls or Tom and Tony for that matter.

This is basically correct, and I found the answer watching Webinar segments. "Theta something blahblahblah". Anyway it's a tastytrade formula and it reflects the status of the current positions.

Since this question about TROC comes up again and again in the Webinar support mailbag, I think it's a little misleading for them to use the TROC label up front -- because the newbie who is likely to be checking out Dough is grasping for PL or anything to indicate that the tastytrade approach actually yields results, and is likely to latch on to this as an indication of performance. You shouldn't have to drill down into the Webinar to find this explanation.

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  #47 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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I have had tastytrade free with my TOS account for some time now. Unfortunately while I did like and recommend earlier in this thread the intro teaching of basic option strategies by their staff which is basically free to watch, I eventually saw little sign of positive returns on their profits even those I simulated along with them for a while which ended up the usual "breakeven" after all that option work and sometimes worse "option trade adjustments". They all seem to be "part-time" traders while working on the tastytrade channel or former order takers on the pit but not actually trading for themselves(?). I think i heard once the other Tom (not Snosoff) claimed to have been up 30% for the year 2013. then there are anecdotes (from elitetrader) by others that report Snosoff has been wrong on major positions year after year such as on bonds and recently oil, and massively averaging down and hoping.

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  #48 (permalink)
 suko 
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gfmatt View Post
No, no, no!!!!

But then they get stuck in these contrarian plays and their performance suffers.

You can't be a contrarian AND believe in random markets. (edit: Jacob has tried to show them that yes, VOL is mean-reverting , BUT prices aren't necessarily)

But their bad trading makes the show more entertaining.


I think the problem is that Tom and Tony are bored. They would probably go crazy trading solely SPY and RUT the way Karen does. What, no earnings plays?

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  #49 (permalink)
 Leon of Pizza 
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I'm making this post for newer traders that might be researching tastytrade.com (presuming that an experienced trader would make his own assessment).

tastytrade is an oddity. Its an extremely polished presentation of an unusual combination of content. It contains valuable information regarding price metrics and it contains dangerous information regarding risk. None of its organized to the benefit of the autodidact, so you will have to slog through a lot of fluff and idiosyncratic small talk to find the value. Its like hard-rock mining: there's a couple of ounces of gold down there, but it will require a lot of work and you might get hurt in the process.

The main thrust is predicting range through the analysis of option pricing. The key to understanding tastytrade is an understanding of Tom Sosnoff's mind. The value there is in his curiosity to explore pricing models and then develop strategies. The danger is his severe case of need-to-be-right, which is the source of all that is wrong. For example, the first 4 segments on scalping - in one segment he says, "we don't use profit targets" and in a later segment he says he does and describes the method used to derive it. Seemingly contradictory statements, unless you know that the first utterance was a display of NTBR and the meaning was that he doesn't derive the target using the same method that others do. Its a decent method but unfortunately its eclipsed by the absence of a corresponding loss control. If you understand the methodology he presents you can design your own loss control. Most of the strategy they propose is portable and can be integrated with chart-based ranging tactics on a DIY basis. Other notable quotes are: "charts are for idiots" and "stop orders are for losers". Also note that there is a conspicuous lack of any aggregated results. One of Tom's many mantras is "we are transparent", but you will have to pay a fee to receive the results and aggregate them yourself - despite the fact that they have number crunchers on staff. And I think that the size data is missing. That's not what I would call crystal. And who wants to log someone else's trades after logging your own? The price analysis is the gold nugget and the rest is spoils. And problems aside, Tom has my respect and thanks.

The Liz and Jenny show presents the most risk defined stratagems and the ones that have moved from experimental to staple. Its also a leaner show (in all respects).

There are currently 2 shows that use charts: Peter Reznicek (shadowtrader) and Tim Knight (trading the close). These are different enough to warrant individual assessment.

The content can be streamed after hours.

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  #50 (permalink)
 suko 
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Two shows on TastyTrade that I try to catch up on:

Ryan and Beef
I like the sober tone of this show, the "grinder" mentality they stick to. And the chance to really get a deeper understanding of into their trading platform, and also to learn about the new features that they are constantly rolling out. Also the constant analysis of delta-neutral portfolio management. Following along with them is very educational, without the noise of the "knuckleheads." They do respond to email.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/the-ryan-beef-show?locale=en-US

Splash into Futures
Pete Mulmat, formerly of CBOE. Before I started watching this show the futures market was totally opaque to me, and especially spreads. Yes, it's complicated, but Pete really serves up a lot of deep and fascinating context along with trade know-how. As a result I have started following along with some paper trades in futures (since I am not permissioned). Pete also responds to email. Good stuff, and also very sober.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/splash-into-futures-with-pete-mulmat?locale=en-US

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  #51 (permalink)
 ourssolaire 
Montreal, Canada
 
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I thought I would add my 2 cents regarding TastyTrade, so here goes...

I first came across TastyTrade while randomly surfing futures.io for information on options trading. Unfortunately I cant find the post so am unable to thank that poster (it was a trader from the UK I think..)

So, I had been spending months and months trying to develop trading bots for CL and NG, with a small account, and not really making any progress. I decided to take the plunge and learn about options trading, and I really wish I had done it earlier, as it really opens up your trading horizons to many different worlds. If you have even a slight analytical bent, then options trading is for you.

Anyway, I came across TastyTrade (TT) and initially my reaction was like many here: "WTF is this??" but I stuck with it and now I have it on as my default background noise. There is something for everyone, from futures trading to TA. They are not trying to sell you an indicator or anything, but you can pay for a subscription to follow Toms trades if you want.

Tom is a very nice and genuine guy. He is out to help the little guys, and everything he does is to try to help people take control of their investments. I have emailed him a number of times and he always replies, sometimes within minutes! He has nothing left to prove, and does not need to do this to survive. He is a trader through and through and loves what he does, and his passion is infectious! Tom is a contrarian and does not deny it. It is only one style of trading, and is not for everybody. Because of this, hes nearly always early and has to take some heat before the market goes his way, but his mantra is Trade Small, Trade Often, so he is able to use probability and time to his advantage, and just waits until he is right. No Stop Orders required.

If I was not stuck with IB TWS for various reasons, I would switch to the TOS platform tomorrow - easliy the best platform for options trading. I have been trading options in a small way since Nov 2015, and with TTs help I have been able to keep my head above water so far (touch wood).

So, if anyone want to learn options, TT is easily the best FREE resource available right now. There is a lot of gold hidden in the segments, and if you actually take the time to mine through them, it will make you a better trader Im sure.

And finally, in response to the poster who was bitching about the "knuckleheads", we all know that trading is a stressful, nerve-wracking game, so any channel that can lighten the mood in the slightest (especially now, during the worst start of the year ever!), is most welcome to me!

www.tastytrade.com

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 ethand320 
Chicago
 
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Thought I'd add my opinion since I've been watching a lot of their content.

Tom is definitely a good guy and an experienced trader. It's pretty awesome (authentic) that they actually trade their own dough on the show and don't just parade recommendations and analysis around. I think people underestimate the value of being around experienced traders just discussing the market/ideas. That privilege used to be only reserved for those of us that work for a prop firm of some kind, now anyone can get a taste (heh) for free!

That being said I'm not a huge fan of the live show, as others have said too much cringe worthy banner to fill out the segments. BUT the shows where the review actual trades, and the ones with a hypothesis backed by a full research report are really amazing content. I watch them after they've been recorded so i can skip right to the good stuff and that's what i'd recommend.

Overall in the landscape of trading advice/education, TT seems about the most authentic I've come across. And all the content is free for the taking as of this writing. If anyone from TT reads this thanks very much for your content! It's helped me tremendously as I've started to transition from an academic options trader (learning) to one that operates daily in the markets.



Ethan

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  #53 (permalink)
 davedog 
columbia, sc
 
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I started my learning of options with Dough.com. This gave me a basic understanding of options and Tastytrade philosophy of Trade Small / Trade Often. Also that most of the time it is better to sell options and collect premium($) rather than buy options.

After getting the Certificate of completing these FREE classes on Dough.com, You were able to get a discount at TDameritrade for trading options (I think it was $2/trade. at the time TD would charge over $5/trade for low volume traders).

Tom also developed an options platform at dough.com that could link to your TD account. This platform was easy to use and showed a more visual representation of where price had to be at time of expire to show a profit/loss.

Now Tom has opened a brokerage called Tastyworks.com. Option trades are $1 to open a trade, no fee to close trade just a 0.10 clearing fee. Which is good for me since I mainly only trade 1 contract per trade.

I have watched tastytrade just to get the basics of what types of options works with different trading environments (i.e. Hi Volatility vs Low Volatility).

You can see a bunch of trades being done by various traders on the platform, I haven't taken the time to see if any are profitable. Tom is way to contrarian for me. And with a small account ($5000) I could not take all these trades. I would much rather find my own way of trading.

I started live in march 2017, I mainly trade credit spreads, once in awhile debit spread. Options on equities(stocks) was kicking my butt for a little while. I started trading options on ETF's and have been doing a lot better.

I only have about 3-4 trades per month, closing position if 70% of target is met, with a profit of $30-$100 per trade while risking about $50-200 per trade. I check my positions daily. I have been assigned once so far.

I have made about 10% profit so far (balance of $5531 at end of july).

Dough and tastytrade taught me a lot about options. They show a lot of stats of how/when certain strategies work in certain environments. I don't really watch tasty trade anymore, but if I wanted to start trading strangles/straddles/calendars, I would definitely watch the training videos for these strategies.

Since I only check these options daily, this leaves me plenty of time to trade futures too!!!

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  #54 (permalink)
 mscholder 
Incline Village + NV or elsewhere in the world
 
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I was looking for a less hectic and time consuming means of generating income than my prior day trading of momentum stocks. So I explored selling option premium based on some reading, prior experience, and Tastytrade shows and studies. My initial results based on doing small trades were good, so I increased the sizes of my trades.

When my results fell back, I tried to determine

* whether I just experienced beginner's luck with my early success,
* if I had just hit an typical bad streak, or
* whether there was a fundamental or temporary market issue in trading options.

I contacted a key person at Tastytrade (TT) to discuss the situation. I pointed out it was not obvious that defined risk (DR) trading could be profitable based on the apparent P/L math for DR trades,

(Typical Probability of Profit <55-60%> * Usual Max Profit <$300>) - (Typical Probability of Loss <40-45%> * Usual Max Loss <$600>) - Estimated Commissions & Fees.

The calculated results over 1,000 trades was a big negative result. Could one overcome that P/L math with 1) the overstatement of volatility in option pricing and 2) taking partial profits early?

The TT person admitted that it was very hard to make money consistently with DR trades and that he personally discovered that including undefined risk (UR) trades was the key to profitability.

So I learned from TT how to do Iron Condors, Iron Butterflys, etc., but if it is very hard to make money consistently with DR trades, why do they teach those?

My UR trades, mostly OTM naked outs, have all been profitable, but I do fewer of those trades due to margin/buying power impact plus the risk of assignment from a big market correction.

I am becoming more apprehensive about the objectivity of Tastytrade due to the prior broker affiliation with TOS and now the affiliation with Tastyworks. Who does "Trade small, trade often" really help, the trader or the broker?

To me, learning all the details about trading Iron Condors, Iron Butterflys, etc., is simply data if it is hard to make consistent profits with DR trades. However, learning that UR trades are the key for profitability is valuable and useful information for me as a trader.

Please share your thoughts and experiences.

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  #55 (permalink)
 DarkPoolTrading 
PTA, Gauteng
 
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mscholder View Post
I was looking for a less hectic and time consuming means of generating income than my prior day trading of momentum stocks. So I explored selling option premium based on some reading, prior experience, and Tastytrade shows and studies. My initial results based on doing small trades were good, so I increased the sizes of my trades.

When my results fell back, I tried to determine

* whether I just experienced beginner's luck with my early success,
* if I had just hit an typical bad streak, or
* whether there was a fundamental or temporary market issue in trading options.

I contacted a key person at Tastytrade (TT) to discuss the situation. I pointed out it was not obvious that defined risk (DR) trading could be profitable based on the apparent P/L math for DR trades,

(Typical Probability of Profit <55-60%> * Usual Max Profit <$300>) - (Typical Probability of Loss <40-45%> * Usual Max Loss <$600>) - Estimated Commissions & Fees.

The calculated results over 1,000 trades was a big negative result. Could one overcome that P/L math with 1) the overstatement of volatility in option pricing and 2) taking partial profits early?

The TT person admitted that it was very hard to make money consistently with DR trades and that he personally discovered that including undefined risk (UR) trades was the key to profitability.

So I learned from TT how to do Iron Condors, Iron Butterflys, etc., but if it is very hard to make money consistently with DR trades, why do they teach those?

My UR trades, mostly OTM naked outs, have all been profitable, but I do fewer of those trades due to margin/buying power impact plus the risk of assignment from a big market correction.

I am becoming more apprehensive about the objectivity of Tastytrade due to the prior broker affiliation with TOS and now the affiliation with Tastyworks. Who does "Trade small, trade often" really help, the trader or the broker?

To me, learning all the details about trading Iron Condors, Iron Butterflys, etc., is simply data if it is hard to make consistent profits with DR trades. However, learning that UR trades are the key for profitability is valuable and useful information for me as a trader.

Please share your thoughts and experiences.

I started getting into options trading a few years ago and my experience was similar to yours. I tried all sorts of defined risk strategies but couldn't make them profitable consistently. It's easy to get a few winners, but that's irrelevant if you can't be consistently profitable in aggregate.

In my opinion based on a few years worth of options experience, I do not think defined risk option strategies in the stock market can be profitable consistently. With that said, defined risk is not completely useless. I believe that it should be used as a learning tool to understand the mechanics of how options work. This allows you to tread water and either make zero profit or make small losses over time,...all the while learning how options work in practice.

Over time I have moved more to undefined risk as well as very wide spreads (eg: 10+ points wide). I combine that with technical / chart and implied volatility analysis.

I think it's a mistake to just blindly sell premium all the time, especially in a market that consistently goes up which makes people complacent and take on too much risk. Then when a correction comes, you blow out your whole account and years worth of profit. That's why I combine undefined risk, chart analysis, diversification, correlation and implied volatility into a more holistic method of selling premium.

Use defined risk as training wheels to learn the mechanics but don't expect it to pay the bills, then move on to undefined risk (carefully and by incorporating a well diversified portfolio).

Diversification is the only free lunch
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  #56 (permalink)
 nathanologist 
Burlington, Vermont
 
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mscholder View Post
Please share your thoughts and experiences.

This is a shorter segment of a three part research series they did addressing the common expectancy formula almost all new options traders discover. https://ontt.tv:443/2xJA5T4

IDK if I agree with them, but I've been making steady profits using their methodology for about 6 months. They do show from research that increasing spread size is more profitable than increasing contract, when you get to the point that you can take on more risk.

Overall, each individual has to practice in a field of study in order to improve skills... Tastytrade as a network is excellent free education. Blindly following ANY method without study and practice... it's a recipe for disaster.

Nate
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  #57 (permalink)
 casey44 
Flagstaff AZ/USA
 
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To each their own, if it's not your cup of tea fine nothing is IT for everyone but I don't relate to the negative generalizations... Over 6+mo. since with tastyworks I'm profitable overall and positive most every month trading practically all defined risk trades. Nothing special about me, past history trading generally has been more negative than positive. Personally I don't see ''tasty trade" as a single modus operandi, I have friends who follow one trader only amongst the dozen or so, and don't watch or care for the other traders. Same for me, I like Sosnoff and a few others, but there are traders and shows I wish would exit. More a supermarket of choices within a broad framework for myself anyway.

For those with a negative slant, pls. tell us where else will one find real identifiable people that one can see/hear/ and can even communicate with being that transparent, not to mention numerous hours of free content... Like any other craft, what one_does_with the tools is more a statement of the one who puts the tools into practice.

ps, apology if this came across sounding a bit edgy, unusual for me, quiet accepting soul I usually am...-) but I have a high regard for Sosnoff and the enormity of what he's created and shares for so little in return. To my mind he has a heart akin to BigMike, in the sense that not one in a million would do/offer what they do for others. Peace.

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  #58 (permalink)
 nathanologist 
Burlington, Vermont
 
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casey44 View Post
I have a high regard for Sosnoff and the enormity of what he's created

Here-here

I took great pleasure in his recent reviews of 2018/2017 trades/predictions from investment house. "have you considered a short put-spread in..." LOL. they're a very approachable group with competitive fees.

The trade small trade often, and the stay engaged mantras are key to my recent success... Nothing compared to my $1200 a day -$2400 the next over leveraged custom indicator futures trading stint... but 10%-12% annualized delta neutral portfolio is working for the moment.

Nate
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 mscholder 
Incline Village + NV or elsewhere in the world
 
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Hi Nate and Casey44,

I appreciate the link to TT's "Profits with Iron Condors" segment including their "common expectancy formula". It is valuable information if managing early improves the expected results to such an extent, from 65% PoP up to a 88% PoP. The person I contacted by e-mail at Tastytrade, a key program host, should have been able to indicate that managing early significantly improves the results. Instead, he said he could not refute my formula and suggested more undefined risk (UR) trades for better profitability. That was fortunate for me since my UR trades, mostly naked puts, have worked very well and helped offset my net losing defined risk (DR) trades, mostly Iron Condors (IC).

Very importantly and to his credit, Tom points out at the end of the "Profits with Iron Condors" segment, that during strong trending markets like we are in, that Iron Condor trades have not worked. I have the net negative track record on numerous Iron Condor trades for the past 6 months to confirm that most of my ICs were losers with little or no potential for early management. I thought my losses might be a typical losing streak or something else, but apparently it was the wrong kind of trade during a strong market trend period. A better late, than never, cavaet for IC traders.

A "free" education, if incomplete - e.g., ... BUT don't try Iron Condor trades in strong trending markets like we are currently in - can be expensive in net trading losses.

I completely agree that "Blindly following ANY method without study and practice is a recipe for disaster", which is why I don't. I take full responsibility for my trading results. My early IC trades generally worked, but the latter ones, even with wide strikes, did not, so I tried to objectively evaluate the situation.

Finally, while Tastytrade does not charge you to access their shows, one cannot pretend that it operates purely on a benevolent basis. It was a marketing tool for TOS and now is for Tastyworks. It encourages you to try option trading by attempting to demystify it. They have a wide range of hosts, which are targeted at a wide ranging audience. That is not negative criticism, it is an objective observation.

According to the wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sosnoff, "In 2014, a Silicon Valley venture fund, Technology Crossover Ventures, invested $25 million into Dough Inc.,[12] also founded by Sosnoff, which includes tastytrade." If that is correct, the venture capital fund is looking for a return on its $25 million investment along with Tom and probably other investors. Until they start charging for the programming or adding third party advertising, the only apparent source of earnings will be from commissions on trades in Tastyworks accounts.

So my recommendation is to take the "free education" with a few grains of salt and remember that Tastytrade/Tastyworks will profit from your trading volume, not from your individual success, and evaluate how they manage that conflict of interest.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


nathanologist View Post
This is a shorter segment of a three part research series they did addressing the common expectancy formula almost all new options traders discover. https://ontt.tv:443/2xJA5T4

IDK if I agree with them, but I've been making steady profits using their methodology for about 6 months. They do show from research that increasing spread size is more profitable than increasing contract, when you get to the point that you can take on more risk.

Overall, each individual has to practice in a field of study in order to improve skills... Tastytrade as a network is excellent free education. Blindly following ANY method without study and practice... it's a recipe for disaster.


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  #60 (permalink)
 nathanologist 
Burlington, Vermont
 
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mscholder View Post
remember that Tastytrade/Tastyworks will profit from your trading volume, not from your individual success, and evaluate how they manage that conflict of interest.

This is true of any broker that also offers research and education content. For my money, the Tasty brand definitely goes above and beyond what other brokers i've used offer. They're pretty honest on the shows when it comes to acknowledging that the only way they make money is the commission on the brokerage. IDK what to say man, if you don't like it, don't watch them/trade with them. To each their own.

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  #61 (permalink)
 mscholder 
Incline Village + NV or elsewhere in the world
 
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Hi Nate and Casey44,

I don't want to start an argument, but other traders, particularly those new to options, may want to see this dialogue and get a perspective about Tastytrade's educational material. The Tastytrade presentations are attractive and interesting, but as indicated below, there may be some significant inconsistencies, so consider a little caution when taking their advice.

It is unusual that in their 2016 videos and currently on the relevant webpage Tastytrade recommends managing regular iron condors (ICs) and now at the end of 2017 they say don't do it. They should update their website to remove the apparently erroneous material about trying to manage ICs.

BACKGROUND

There is a link below to a Tastytrade primer on Iron Condors, which includes the statement on rolling:
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/learn/iron-condor

"When do we manage Iron Condors?
We manage iron condors by adjusting the untested side, or profitable side of the spread. We look to roll the untested spread closer to the stock price to collect more premium. We can go as far as rolling our untested spread to the same short strike as our tested spread, which creates an iron fly."

There are some videos on the topic, see

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/mike-and-his-whiteboard/episodes/3-iron-condor-adjustments-03-22-2016

Today (12-5-17) in the Best Practices segment entitled "Mechanics to Defend", Tom Sosnoff said that statistics show that one SHOULD NOT manage an Iron Condor, just accept the initial trade probabilities if the trade goes against you.

PERSPECTIVE

I just happened to see the Mechanics to Defend segment today, noted the BIG DISCREPANCY, and thought that I should point it out.

There were no good details in either the 2016 video or in the Mechanics to Defend segment to clearly establish whether one should or should not manage an IC. Nor did Tom Sosnoff point out in the Mechanics to Defend segment today that their position has changed.

I don't expect perfection from anyone and I do not have the time or interest in vetting their website and all of their current and archived shows to confirm whether this is the only significant inconsistency. Newer option traders, like me, may want to be cautious with Tastytrade advice.

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  #62 (permalink)
 nathanologist 
Burlington, Vermont
 
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It's not a discrepancy per se.
1) If statistics prove their methods wrong, they change. To me that is not a bad thing it's a good thing.
2) There is a difference between a classic 1/3 width in premium IC vs. Wide IC (synthetic strangle) and the way you manage it is different.

Their content needs some management for a certainty. They don't do a great job of organising and much if the older material is not clearly written.

What they try to do is educate on mechanics of options trading and present ideas and research to keep traders engaged. Definitely their opinions and perspective is biased toward the lead characters of the shows. If somebody's looking for a Holy Grail strategy (i.e. one that works in all market conditions 100% of the time) Tastytrade is not that. But, if you want to trade options and don't know where to start, you can get a really good practical knowledge of the structure, theory and mechanics of various options strategies for free there.

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