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tastytrade.com

  #41 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Kyoto, Japan
 
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QUESTION: on trader performance. [I am not interested in Tom's trading or in subscribing to Bob]

I want to see what I can learn from the trading of young TT traders like Alex (13) or Katie. I get a kick out of the idea of learning from a 13 year old.

If you look at the "follow" screen on dough.com, it gives the YTD stats for the various traders, expert to novice.

https://trade.dough.com/demo#/followPage

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

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  #42 (permalink)
Elite Member
Louisville, Kentucky
 
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Same for Me


suko View Post
One of my goals for 2015 is to make a long march through the WDIS (options newbie learning) archive with Tony and Katie. I watched a number of the Tom and Case WDIS shows. Both of these series are highly educational.

I'm right there with you. Planning to start in 2015 sometime. I've been making my way through the WDIS videos with Tony and Katie for the past couple of months. It'll be a nice addition to my overall portfolio of strategies.

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  #43 (permalink)
Elite Member
Edmonton, Alberta
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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suko View Post
QUESTION: on trader performance. [I am not interested in Tom's trading or in subscribing to Bob]

I want to see what I can learn from the trading of young TT traders like Alex (13) or Katie. I get a kick out of the idea of learning from a 13 year old.

If you look at the "follow" screen on dough.com, it gives the YTD stats for the various traders, expert to novice.

https://trade.dough.com/demo#/followPage

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

No, no, no!!!!

Katie is down on the year I believe. I don't have Dough on my current computer, but I don't believe those are actual returns, but represent potential ROC of the currently held positions. Case is still down after 2 years because she follows some of Tom's contrarian plays (hello NQ at 3650).

Katie and Case would be much better following a systematic approach like say Dan Sheridan rather than their "contrarian masters" Tom and Tony. They know options, but their macro bets are leading people to losses, including Katie and Case.

There is a fundamental disconnect in their trading. The say they believe in random markets - and their delta- neutralish trading is good. But then they get stuck in these contrarian plays and their performance suffers.

You can't be a contrarian AND believe in random markets. (edit: Jacob has tried to show them that yes, VOL is mean-reverting , BUT prices aren't necessarily)

But their bad trading makes the show more entertaining.


Last edited by gfmatt; December 16th, 2014 at 02:14 AM. Reason: added info
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  #44 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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gfmatt View Post
No, no, no!!!!
Katie is down on the year I believe. I don't have Dough on my current computer, but I don't believe those are actual returns, but represent potential ROC of the currently held positions. Case is still down after 2 years because she follows some of Tom's contrarian plays (hello NQ at 3650).

Thanks. I somehow suspected that was the case -- "When something looks too good to be true..."

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  #45 (permalink)
Elite Member
milwaukee,wi, usa
 
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suko View Post
QUESTION: on trader performance.

Looks like Alex is at 35% TROC this year, while Katie is at 73% (I think that this probably reflects Tony's trading ideas more than hers).

So, am I correct in understanding that "TROC Annual" is the PL for the trading account, and for instance in the case of Katie and her $30K account, she has made 22K for this year?

99.9% sure TROC stands for tastytrade return on capital. I would email support through dough.com or tastytrade.com for clarification. No Idea on p&l for any of the girls or Tom and Tony for that matter.

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  #46 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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lrfsdad View Post
99.9% sure TROC stands for tastytrade return on capital. I would email support through dough.com or tastytrade.com for clarification. No Idea on p&l for any of the girls or Tom and Tony for that matter.

This is basically correct, and I found the answer watching Webinar segments. "Theta something blahblahblah". Anyway it's a tastytrade formula and it reflects the status of the current positions.

Since this question about TROC comes up again and again in the Webinar support mailbag, I think it's a little misleading for them to use the TROC label up front -- because the newbie who is likely to be checking out Dough is grasping for PL or anything to indicate that the tastytrade approach actually yields results, and is likely to latch on to this as an indication of performance. You shouldn't have to drill down into the Webinar to find this explanation.

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  #47 (permalink)
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I have had tastytrade free with my TOS account for some time now. Unfortunately while I did like and recommend earlier in this thread the intro teaching of basic option strategies by their staff which is basically free to watch, I eventually saw little sign of positive returns on their profits even those I simulated along with them for a while which ended up the usual "breakeven" after all that option work and sometimes worse "option trade adjustments". They all seem to be "part-time" traders while working on the tastytrade channel or former order takers on the pit but not actually trading for themselves(?). I think i heard once the other Tom (not Snosoff) claimed to have been up 30% for the year 2013. then there are anecdotes (from elitetrader) by others that report Snosoff has been wrong on major positions year after year such as on bonds and recently oil, and massively averaging down and hoping.


Last edited by Cloudy; December 28th, 2014 at 11:05 PM.
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  #48 (permalink)
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gfmatt View Post
No, no, no!!!!

But then they get stuck in these contrarian plays and their performance suffers.

You can't be a contrarian AND believe in random markets. (edit: Jacob has tried to show them that yes, VOL is mean-reverting , BUT prices aren't necessarily)

But their bad trading makes the show more entertaining.


I think the problem is that Tom and Tony are bored. They would probably go crazy trading solely SPY and RUT the way Karen does. What, no earnings plays?

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  #49 (permalink)
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I'm making this post for newer traders that might be researching tastytrade.com (presuming that an experienced trader would make his own assessment).

tastytrade is an oddity. Its an extremely polished presentation of an unusual combination of content. It contains valuable information regarding price metrics and it contains dangerous information regarding risk. None of its organized to the benefit of the autodidact, so you will have to slog through a lot of fluff and idiosyncratic small talk to find the value. Its like hard-rock mining: there's a couple of ounces of gold down there, but it will require a lot of work and you might get hurt in the process.

The main thrust is predicting range through the analysis of option pricing. The key to understanding tastytrade is an understanding of Tom Sosnoff's mind. The value there is in his curiosity to explore pricing models and then develop strategies. The danger is his severe case of need-to-be-right, which is the source of all that is wrong. For example, the first 4 segments on scalping - in one segment he says, "we don't use profit targets" and in a later segment he says he does and describes the method used to derive it. Seemingly contradictory statements, unless you know that the first utterance was a display of NTBR and the meaning was that he doesn't derive the target using the same method that others do. Its a decent method but unfortunately its eclipsed by the absence of a corresponding loss control. If you understand the methodology he presents you can design your own loss control. Most of the strategy they propose is portable and can be integrated with chart-based ranging tactics on a DIY basis. Other notable quotes are: "charts are for idiots" and "stop orders are for losers". Also note that there is a conspicuous lack of any aggregated results. One of Tom's many mantras is "we are transparent", but you will have to pay a fee to receive the results and aggregate them yourself - despite the fact that they have number crunchers on staff. And I think that the size data is missing. That's not what I would call crystal. And who wants to log someone else's trades after logging your own? The price analysis is the gold nugget and the rest is spoils. And problems aside, Tom has my respect and thanks.

The Liz and Jenny show presents the most risk defined stratagems and the ones that have moved from experimental to staple. Its also a leaner show (in all respects).

There are currently 2 shows that use charts: Peter Reznicek (shadowtrader) and Tim Knight (trading the close). These are different enough to warrant individual assessment.

The content can be streamed after hours.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Two shows on TastyTrade that I try to catch up on:

Ryan and Beef
I like the sober tone of this show, the "grinder" mentality they stick to. And the chance to really get a deeper understanding of into their trading platform, and also to learn about the new features that they are constantly rolling out. Also the constant analysis of delta-neutral portfolio management. Following along with them is very educational, without the noise of the "knuckleheads." They do respond to email.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/the-ryan-beef-show?locale=en-US

Splash into Futures
Pete Mulmat, formerly of CBOE. Before I started watching this show the futures market was totally opaque to me, and especially spreads. Yes, it's complicated, but Pete really serves up a lot of deep and fascinating context along with trade know-how. As a result I have started following along with some paper trades in futures (since I am not permissioned). Pete also responds to email. Good stuff, and also very sober.

https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/shows/splash-into-futures-with-pete-mulmat?locale=en-US


Last edited by suko; December 2nd, 2015 at 04:50 AM.
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