There are interesting videos and lessons on price action without indicators at this youtube URL: clickme
I found this site by accident looking for something else but i wanted to share the link as i consider the information presented about P.A. valuable and it's all presented in a video format. The other reason i posted the link is because it's a good example of how subjective drawing oblique trendlines can be from one person to the next. I consider one way to gauge our skill in that department is by comparing our drawing to other traders and here you have a free source where you can do this. As Lance Begg nicely put it in his controversial article, i have come to realise that trendlines are seducing as they create the illusion of support or resistance but still if you can identify areas of previously proven supply/demand imbalance then it's even better. Anyway, if this info can inspire you then that's what counts.
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ya someone had posted this on the forum a couple weeks ago.. i cant remember exactly where, but i have since been subscribed to the channel and occasionally go to watch them.. he has some nice tips you can pick up..
dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see
One of the first educational things about trading I started out with was Robert Miner's "High Probability Trading Strategies". then later his book Dynamic Trading. I even wasted 2k on DT5. Now there's a DT6. (Dynamic Traders - Home ; I don't know why it's called "dynamic". The most rigid set of fib and wave rules I've ever seen. ) I lost money trying to trade stock options with fib and wave setups on DT5. Later on having read Al Brook's book and other opinions that 3 wave and 5 wave only work about 20% of the time in today's market. And in general in a strong trend, the retracement may go as far as only 38% , while in general a retracement tends to go from 68% to often dipping to 76% before resuming. And in general those two "rules" are all that may work. Or maybe I never learned the right way to place the fibs. Which time frame, where to place the basis point of the retracement or the projections, etc.
Uh, Tiyf, no you're right. Sorry, I have no idea why I posted about dynamic traders on this thread! I don't even know which thread I was trying to respond to. Sometimes I have these neurotic outbursts from being scammed by some vendor in the past.
As for your thread topic. I took a look at some of the videos. They look good, nice and simple. He seemed to mention an Al Brooks setup or two using similar terminology. And the MA used looks similar to Brook's use of a single 20 EMA. Maybe this is a simpler alternative for someone looking to learn price action.
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I have given my opinion in another thread, so it is logical that I repeat here.
I personally think that PATs Trading is serious.
In my view, he is not really a "vendor". It is right that he proposes a PDF book for $99, but he rarely mentions its existence in his numerous free videos (175 videos at the time I am writing this message). After having watched a few free videos, all the setups are clear, and I think that he knows it very well. He has apparently even tried to discourage a futures.io (formerly BMT) member to buy the book (reference).
I have bought the book. Not because I felt a need to better understand the methods after having watched the videos. But more to thank him for what I have learnt while watching the free videos. The book is well presented and is a convenient reference material and "package" for the method. It also goes deeper in the rationale behind the setups.
What I appreciate with him is that he shows the implementation of his method every day (for free).
I have often been frustrated with some other "masters" (not necessarily vendors) when they do not show the implementation of their methods on, let's say, a whole week. Showing on a whole week (even with hindsight) allows a much better understanding of the method. How many setups per day in average? In which market conditions? Is it possible to have a full day with no setup? etc. PATs is not afraid to do so. Once more, for free.
I would recommend the watching of his free videos to a beginner in price action. Or to some one who has finished to read Al Brooks and does not manage to implement it. It was my case. After having worked a lot on Al Brooks' book, I was disappointed to see that the current charts were not looking as in the book. PATs method seems derived from Brooks, but it is simpler, it is clear, and he implements it every day on ES.
Would you be profitable with this method? As for all methods, nobody can tell.
But the Youtube videos are worth having a look imo. At least for education on price action (if needed).
Nicolas
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I am also PAT's (Mack) fun. I agree with what Nicholas said and would like to add that he is always replying to my emails within the day, giving explanations and answering my questions.
The following 8 users say Thank You to capsmart for this post:
I have been demoing his Price Action method for a week now on the 10,000 Volume chart.It is a simple strategy,but it takes alot of practice,and chart studying to get familiar with the set-ups.He suggests using either a 2000 Tick chart,10,000 Volume chart or a 5Min chart. I like the Volume charts much better than Tick charts,alot less chop and fakes.
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That is really interesting that you use the Volume chart. I opened up clean charts for 2000 tick and 10000 volume and looked at the first trade this morning during RTH.
On my charts once the signal bar has closed (the stop entry would be one tick above it @ 1368.75) - I noticed the subsequent bar on my TICK chart ranged from 1368.00 to 1369.50 and the same bar on the VOLUME chart ranged from 1368.25 to 1369.50.
Of course I know there is 2 different measurements in play here, but my question is...do you find yourself missing entries because your volume chart ticked a different range than the tick chart, i.e. in some cases too close to your entry on the signal bar and hence you miss it?
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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I dont really miss too many entries,and I didnt really notice too much of a tick difference until you mentioned it.I dont take all of the trades Mack takes shown at the end of the day review.If I miss some trades it was because I wasnt too comfortable with the trade or just skeptical of the price actions direction.
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@capsmart; @Nicolas11, I've watched a number of his videos and found them to be quite good. Is it worthwhile getting the manual in your opinion? thanks
One passage in the article by Greg Capra sticks out: The enlightening moment came when I realize that the analysis of support and resistance is not to be done diagonally, it has to be done horizontally. It was so simple, but all the hocus-pocus analysis taught made it so hard to get to that point.
The following 8 users say Thank You to trendisyourfriend for this post:
I suppose he meant supply and demand so it should rather be expressed like this: The enlightening moment came when I realize that the analysis of supply and demand is not to be done diagonally, it has to be done horizontally...
Which leads me to believe that maybe drawing trendlines is just an activity to stay engaged in the moment but has very little to do with locating valid areas of supply and demand. To be sure, just consider how two individuals would draw their lines at different angles using different pivots.
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I too am not completely sold on the validity of trendlines and far prefer the use of horizontal support/resistance zones. I use daily, 30min and 5min charts for my trading. On those charts ill mark diagonal trendlines on the daily and 30min charts if and when I see them. However I will only use horizontal S/R zones on my 5min chart. My reasoning is that although diagonal trendlines often workout, it is usually as a result of S/R, not the trendline. It is just coincidence most of the time that trendlines appear (and our inate ability to identify patterns in the world around us).
My thinking is that if I see a potential trendline bounce setting up on the 30min chart, ill look at my 5min chart for reasons why that point is going to hold ie: I look for horizontal S/R areas. If I dont see any S/R in that area, I will not take the trade just because of a potential trendline bounce.
Just my 2c.
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I had a chance to talk with Mack. He's a genuine dude and his results are real. Vance (from the CL Trades journal) and myself interviewed him last week. Give it a listen.
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I have no doubt the guy is sincere and maybe a good trader but i am not convinced that you can learn how to trade by simply doing hindsight trading. I mean looking at a chart when everything is canned is not the best way to learn how to trade. You need to go bar by bar and make up your mind as price is unfolding on the right side of the screen. Drawing perfect lines on the right pivots after the fact does not mean much to me. In fact, you may feel you need to see one more of these beautiful marked charts as they do not make you think by yourself. This is one pitfall i see with this form of teaching.
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Reviewing the day, after the fact, won't hurt your trading either. I think the method has a place, but only a small piece of the overall learning process.
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The general problem is when someone disguises hindsight trading as actual real live performance. So long as it is made clear that the chart was not marked up in real time and it is not real time analysis, then I think people can make their own decisions.
I agree, reviewing the day or certain passages is certainly a good practice. I wrote a comment to this effect in this thread: perfect trading by cunparis. I was more thinking about the same lines of thought as what Big Mike wrote above.
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I have had some decent success usings PAT's system. Particularly with the 2nd entries. I am looking to start a Skype group with others who use Mack's system. The purpose of the room is for a group of trader's to share real time charts and entry's in order for everyone to learn from each other. I want this room to only be centered around Mack's PAT's system trading ES using Mack's methods only.
For those interested, please PM me.
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Been 3 good ES trades so far off the very clear bear trendline tonight starting at 21:57 EST! Still moving down... How many of you caught them? 10:47, 11:26, and 11:51 US EST.
Do not need much foresight to tell you that Mack will surely have these trades on his video lesson when he finishes trading today. Not hindsight.
IMHO, he's a solid, very nice guy that helps many people.
Note: Times edited to be correct. See messages below! Sorry!
Richard
Hong Kong
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Sorry for not being so clear. All New York EST times as noted in message. There were some trading range trades before this trend line setup too, and will watch Mack's video soon to see what he had to say. Not seen remainder of market movement yet as waiting to get my Kinetick data to review whole day. Looked like that trendline was being broken as I switched off and went to bed.
Haa.. exactly. Those times I quoted are actually Bangkok, Thailand time zone! Hong Kong is 13 hours ahead of EST. I subtracted the 1 hour, then forgot to subtract the other 12! I should have gone to bed after trading, rather than drop into here and waste everyone's time.
Will be better next week when EDT dawns, only 12 hours ahead so less mistakes I hope.
Richard
Hong Kong
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If im not mistaken @VinceVirgil trades in a similar fashion. If not exactly the same, I think several aspects grew and were changed to suit Vance,....but essentially stemming from Mac's method. Im sure Vance will chime in if that's not correct.
Diversification is the only free lunch
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hello guys ,
i have already bought PAT s manual , reading it properlly , but dont understand everything , so need to study more and again... but i found it helpfull and great ... i even dont do sim trades , only sometimes , so getting to use to the strategy... i don t mind it is a hard work and endless learning ...
good luck to everyone
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This is the common journal for futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members who are currently trading or interested in learning more about the PATs Price Action Trading method as taught by Mack.
Why another new PATs journal now ?
The intent of this common …
The entries since the first of the year are not as frequent since some of the more active participants are AWOL
Rejoice in the Thunderstorms of Life . . .
Knowing it's not about Clouds or Wind. . .
But Learning to Dance in the Rain ! ! !
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I am not sure why this thread hasn't updated for logn time. I really appreciare what Mack(true teather) is doing for all of us. Like to understand what kind and how should I practice PATs stuff in off hours so it becomes second nature. For example I can use replay mode and open chart of 2000 ticket on ES, going forward bar by bar and start drawing channels on it to be good at drawing channels something like that. I am believer that practice does not make perfect, good and accurate practice makes you perfect. So trying to find the right way to do the PATs drills. Can you guys please guide me.
Bill - there used to be several threads on Mack's Pats method but they all died. It might mean that most have given up on it although I can't say for sure. My issue with his method = his manual insists that you scalp most of your position off at 4 ticks and move your stop to break even with a runner. Considering your stop has to be below the recent swing (he told me this in an email) it could be over 2 points. That's a very poor R/R even if you get an occasional runner. Just my 2 cents.
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Hi @SawDr ... It can also mean, they are making good money and do not want to bother to come here . but we will never know unless they come out and tell us.
this is were I am confused too on his strategy of R/R. I have also joined his online forum and I will be sending him this question. If you have any other question please send me PM. Thanks you very much for your input.
Regards
Bill
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Bill, yea.....al brooks suggests printing a chart and covering the page and going bar by bar slowly and when you see a trade that you're trading, take it and see how you'd handle it.
if you did trade for the day then review your trades....how did you feel before, during and after the trade, how could you have managed the trade better, were you impulsive or patient......
create your own questions....make them up and ask yourself how you can improve your trading.....
create 10 questions a day for 10 days and answer them all....then next month do it again....
and journal journal journal......if you had traded off 1hr, daily, weekly, monthly, same setup would you have made more $ or less----
create and test!
that should keep you busy Bill
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I'm a bit of a newbie and I'm just trying to find a profitable strategy that I can build upon and create my own. I have heard nothing but good things about Mack's PATs and have been contemplating purchasing it, especially for the cost. My issue is that I do not want to spend time studying and working on something that is going to end up being worthless to me. I have been there and done that for thousands of dollars trying to gain an edge trading the /ES, so I am very cautious.
So who here is finding success with PATs? If so, are you just following Mack's system or have you added your own flair onto the system?
Most buy his 90 pages of large type face book as a way to say thank you for the help. There are no secrets in his 4 times a week 20 minute absolutely free you tube videos. Many experienced successful traders use some or a lot of what he teaches. Which is simplified Al Brooks. He says in print if you want a more detailed explanation go read Brooks.
Unfortunately price action trading, taught by many, is always the same thing. You have to learn to identify and apply about a dozen (or more) patterns and it takes months of screen time, usually. If you are really inexperienced (no pre-conceived ideas) he says you may pick it up in a couple of weeks. Personally I would suggest working on identifying a couple of straight forward patterns then gradually add to what you are doing.
There is a lot of criticism of PATS by people who haven't figured it out and or do not understand trading math. Specific case the scalp runner combination. Several have commented over the years that it doesn't make sense to them. Yet Futures Trader 71 teaches a version of that method. As do others. Some men will not drive a Ford truck, what can you say.
Years ago I would read an Elliot Wave blog. A former professional (meaning he now just trades for his own account) trader would generously share his wave counts. When he changed them because of price not doing what he expected many would call him a flip flopper. I still follow him on Twitter (Coolbizone). He occasional posts his brokerage account. He is usually swing trading 20 contracts in the ES plus some options. He routinely takes $100,000 out of the market in a bigger move month. But the people on that site hounded him until he left. I try to keep that in mind when I see general non specific criticism of someones method.
I have tried a lot of things over the years. Van Tharp identifies me as an innovative trader. (with his free personality test)
I have spent many a lazy Saturday diving down the rabbit holes of various once popular threads. It always reminds me of when I was in high school many many years ago. The rumor went around about crates of WW11 Harley Davidsons packed in grease that never got shipped out. Well it was of course just a story but just about everybody in school who could turn a wrench was hot on the trail. And it was a lot more exciting than bagging groceries for a year so you could buy an old rust bucket car that sort of ran. Magic indicators are great but really a lot of people who regularly make money use basic stuff.
So the answer to your question is yes, trend lines, support resistance, fibs, prior day levels, awareness of important news releases, double tops and bottoms etc etc will work and will make you money. But you aren't going to get a lot of followers talking about trend lines. I am sure if I put up a trade log showing how I make 4 points at least once a day with a pullback failing at the 21 factor EMA when combined with a trend line no one would read it. Besides Mack shows you exactly where that happens four days a week.
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While I have no doubts about the unrealistic expectations and often foolish demands made by novice traders the bottom line is that hindsight trading is next to useless. Drawing neat trendlines after all the market swings have been made does perhaps have some value but not much. Mack's videos would be far more useful if he traded at the hard right edge on a REGULAR BASIS, does not have to be live, does not have to be every day, even one day a week would be far more valuable than the almost daily 20/20 content he now produces. Yes, his videos are free but they are also a marketing tool, nothing wrong with this but let's call a spade a spade.
Furthermore, vendors need to put up or shut up, Dean Jenkins provides annual audited returns on his website. There is no valid reason why other vendors cannot do the same, NONE. Yes, perhaps anything can be faked or altered but this does not mean customers should grope around in the dark, especially when the barriers to entry in this business are practically nil.
I have analyzed numerous hedge fund and CTA prospectuses, I used to have a portfolio of over 25 managers, back when there was sufficient harvestable alpha in the markets. I have probably done due diligence on over 200 managers, I used a custom 30ish page checklist I personally developed over the years. I cannot remember one manager who did not provide audited returns or at least pro-forma returns. I can assure that you that any manager soliciting investments and unwilling to provide the aforementioned would be shunned for life. I think the trading community should treat vendors in same fashion, moreso the ones charging multiple thousands of dollars.
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You are absolutely correct. The one point where I see an exception is the guy is selling a $90 pamphlet. And you don't really need it to figure out what he is doing. I just don't see where he is minting any significant coin off of his efforts at explaining how he trades. A recording of a weekly live trade would be great. That is one of the big reasons I listen to FuturesTrader 71 every morning because he always shows yesterdays scenarios against what really happened.
Somebody was being critical of Dr. Van Tharp because he isn't a great trader. But they are different skill sets, coaching and playing. Not all great coaches were hall of fame players. Watershed event for me was reading the story of the Turtle Traders. Same selection criteria to be a trader, same training, same starting accounts yet totally different results. Proved to me that a very successful and legendary trader was no good at developing new talent.
But the very very valid point you make is the way retail is treated by the industry and the regulators. People on this site have identified many out right frauds over the years. Public prognosticators never disclose their track records. If CNBC showed the win loss rate on past public calls by the people being on air, well I am pretty sure they would have to shut down for lack of guests. There was an advisory service that kept a track record of public calls by newsletter writers and TV personalities. pretty disappointing. But as long as money and politics are involved the regulators will never act to save the small people from the snake oil salesmen. I figure the people who can get hurt are the ones who just know enough to be a danger to themselves and haven't figured out yet that the personality making calls game is rigged.
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FT 71 and Mack at PATS do have something in common. They both go all in and then start taking scalps out leaving a runner. Yes their styles are different but that strategy they share. Many posters keep saying they don't understand scalping out and leaving a runner. Some sat they think it is nonsensical. I personally think that if you do not see how something can work it does not mean that it doesn't.
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Hi
I have not watched FT 71 much, but I remember one presentation were he scaled in ( to a winner) and presented the value of doing so.
Has that changed?
I started day trading the ES this year after I discovered Mack and PATs. Bought the manual and practiced every day. I used real money to start, actually had it set up so that I was looking at the ES chart but I would buy and sell SPY since I felt an ES contract was too much for me. As you would expect of someone starting fresh with trading the ES, I didn't do well the first few months.
Then I switched over to SIM and continued practicing every day. I also took less trades. Mack himself says that you only need two or three good trades a day to make it. I saw my results getting better, but I was still having some difficulty.
Then I discovered John Grady and No BS Day Trading, and his stuff on the DOM and order flow, and I really, really liked his philosophy and what he taught. So I implemented that into what I was already doing with PATs. And since the micro minis came out, I've been trading them.
So now I am trading live with the micros on Sierra Chart with a 2000 tick chart next to a DOM, combining both PATs and reading order flow. I find that PATs gives me a very good read on context, while order flow helps me fine-tune and zero in on setups. Occasionally I'll still take a trade based off the chart alone according to PATs rules, but I'm finding that most of the time I am focused first on order flow and second on the price action on the chart. Obviously it works best when both are pointing in the right direction, e.g we've pulled back to the trend line, a second entry short is forming, and orders aren't hitting offers as aggressively and bids are starting to get taken out with significant volume.
So I like and recommend PATs. I found it very helpful and foundational to my trading. I think Mack is a solid and sincere guy, and I do think his system can work. For me, I just found the DOM so much more helpful on top of what I had already learned from PATs.
Oh, and I started live trading like this (PATs + order flow) on June 27. Been profitable every day since July 25, averaging 2.07 points per day. I think it would be higher if I had a swing portion in addition to my scalps, but I've only been trading one micro contract, so I scalp out for 3-5 ticks a lot.
EDIT - I've also found that using order flow has allowed me to reduce risk a lot. Mack has you put your stop below what he (and Al Brooks) calls a "signal bar," with a maximum allowable stop of 2 points. Scalping for a point while risking two points was tough because losses were very hard to recover from. With order flow, I'm often able to get much smaller stops, by either picking a level that I think should hold or going with the momentum so that I "get the edge" and price never goes back against me. John Grady talks more about this in his class.
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I am considering Mack's PAT pdf book now that I have watched his videos for a while and interested in understanding more. Is there any where I can look at the table of contents for the book to at least see what it covers?
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Please don't read this in a condescending tone, but it is only $99.00 and you should probably just bite the bullet. I think you'll find the manual fairly informative and certainly worth the money, plus there is enough information in the PATS threads to expand on his ideas.
I got the manual years ago now and I don't trade like PATS anymore, but it was pretty well put together but certainly no frills.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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Certainly. I worked on my own method and strategy, therefore PATS became surplus to my requirements.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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The following 5 users say Thank You to JonnyBoy for this post:
I too have studied both PATs and John Grady's stuff, but didn't think to integrate them. I also found the 2 point stop loss to be problematic. Is it still working for you and, if so, are you willing to share your thoughts? I have only purchased John's beginner course but, obviously would be willing to purchase his intermediate course and other material if that would be helpful. The same for Mack's stuff, purchased the manual but not his yearly subscription. Finally, I also use Sierra Chart so any information on your chartbook setups that you think would be useful would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.
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I started having trouble trading the ES using my integrated approach in September and October. Never figured out what the reason was. I think I was seeing setups in the order flow that weren't really setups. Others have noted that the DOM in the ES is most of the times impossible to read. You get easily chopped up. I think the DOM still has good info and can give you the edge at times, but I lean toward using PATs more to trade the ES in general.
I also started trading Treasuries using Grady's ideas. So since November, been trading both Treasuries and ES. I use Sierra Chart too. I have DOMs set up for ZN, ZB, ZF, and ES, and I have a 2000 tick ES chart up. I watch both and take the setups I see. Haven't been trading the past month though with the volatility and also I'm on vacation right now.
So that's where I am right now... Feel free to ask anything more specific.
The following user says Thank You to shoozer for this post:
Combining order flow with price action works very well. I did a video on topic some years ago now that you might find helpful. It also covers how the market moves which is not often explained with IMHO.
The guy at A) trades lives in front of people streaming from YT. The other indicator seems more polished but have not tested any of these products but like what they did with it.
Good luck
The following 2 users say Thank You to trendisyourfriend for this post:
I have noticed that you sell an automated strategy of PATS on your website and was wondering if you'd like to share with us some trade statistics from that. Thank you very much.
Yes, I'm a vendor , but I'm not a registered vendor on futures.io
But I'm not violating anything
- I did NOT promote anything
- I did NOT put any links to my website on futures.io
- I did NOT mention my website or products
- I did NOT advertise anything
Someone else did mention a video of mine on youtube
The only thing I did was that I replied to their message and told them that if someone has questions about it then they can contact me, that's it.
Erwin
After 1.5 years of learning only this style I gave up in November 2020.
I spent at least 2000 hours watching charts, drawing lines, testing all those setups and watching his videos.
And even after all that I found that all I do when SIM trade is question myself is this line drawn right, maybe I should change it, does it fits here. I took trade here and It didn't work why? Oh because it's too close to S/R. You literally can doubt everything. It doesn't matter that trade was loser or winner.
Too much thinking, too much decisions. It leads to decision fatigue when I can do nothing. It's not a psychological problem, I really tried to help myself with meditation, journaling my thoughts, reactions like Brett Steenbarger recommends to do. The problem is too much discretionary.
Maybe if you do this for 20+ like Mack or Al Brooks you can success. Well, good luck with that.
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dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see 
