Price action chart lessons by Mack's PATS Trading (
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Price action chart lessons by Mack's PATS Trading (
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Price action chart lessons by Mack's PATS Trading (

Unread   #61 (permalink)
sacramento, ca
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Favorite Futures: ES and CL futures contracts
Posts: 12 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 11 given, 17 received

shoozer View Post
I started day trading the ES this year after I discovered Mack and PATs. Bought the manual and practiced every day. I used real money to start, actually had it set up so that I was looking at the ES chart but I would buy and sell SPY since I felt an ES contract was too much for me. As you would expect of someone starting fresh with trading the ES, I didn't do well the first few months.

Then I switched over to SIM and continued practicing every day. I also took less trades. Mack himself says that you only need two or three good trades a day to make it. I saw my results getting better, but I was still having some difficulty.

Then I discovered John Grady and No BS Day Trading, and his stuff on the DOM and order flow, and I really, really liked his philosophy and what he taught. So I implemented that into what I was already doing with PATs. And since the micro minis came out, I've been trading them.

So now I am trading live with the micros on Sierra Chart with a 2000 tick chart next to a DOM, combining both PATs and reading order flow. I find that PATs gives me a very good read on context, while order flow helps me fine-tune and zero in on setups. Occasionally I'll still take a trade based off the chart alone according to PATs rules, but I'm finding that most of the time I am focused first on order flow and second on the price action on the chart. Obviously it works best when both are pointing in the right direction, e.g we've pulled back to the trend line, a second entry short is forming, and orders aren't hitting offers as aggressively and bids are starting to get taken out with significant volume.

So I like and recommend PATs. I found it very helpful and foundational to my trading. I think Mack is a solid and sincere guy, and I do think his system can work. For me, I just found the DOM so much more helpful on top of what I had already learned from PATs.

Oh, and I started live trading like this (PATs + order flow) on June 27. Been profitable every day since July 25, averaging 2.07 points per day. I think it would be higher if I had a swing portion in addition to my scalps, but I've only been trading one micro contract, so I scalp out for 3-5 ticks a lot.

EDIT - I've also found that using order flow has allowed me to reduce risk a lot. Mack has you put your stop below what he (and Al Brooks) calls a "signal bar," with a maximum allowable stop of 2 points. Scalping for a point while risking two points was tough because losses were very hard to recover from. With order flow, I'm often able to get much smaller stops, by either picking a level that I think should hold or going with the momentum so that I "get the edge" and price never goes back against me. John Grady talks more about this in his class.

Thank you for sharing your insights. I 100% agree that combining the PATS system with the Jigsaw order flow tools is a very solid approach.

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Unread   #62 (permalink)
Ann Arbor MI USA
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: Treasury futures
Posts: 1 since Jan 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

I too have studied both PATs and John Grady's stuff, but didn't think to integrate them. I also found the 2 point stop loss to be problematic. Is it still working for you and, if so, are you willing to share your thoughts? I have only purchased John's beginner course but, obviously would be willing to purchase his intermediate course and other material if that would be helpful. The same for Mack's stuff, purchased the manual but not his yearly subscription. Finally, I also use Sierra Chart so any information on your chartbook setups that you think would be useful would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

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Unread   #63 (permalink)
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ES
Posts: 2 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

I started having trouble trading the ES using my integrated approach in September and October. Never figured out what the reason was. I think I was seeing setups in the order flow that weren't really setups. Others have noted that the DOM in the ES is most of the times impossible to read. You get easily chopped up. I think the DOM still has good info and can give you the edge at times, but I lean toward using PATs more to trade the ES in general.

I also started trading Treasuries using Grady's ideas. So since November, been trading both Treasuries and ES. I use Sierra Chart too. I have DOMs set up for ZN, ZB, ZF, and ES, and I have a 2000 tick ES chart up. I watch both and take the setups I see. Haven't been trading the past month though with the volatility and also I'm on vacation right now.

So that's where I am right now... Feel free to ask anything more specific.

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