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Price action chart lessons by Mack's PATS Trading (priceactiontradingsystem.com)
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Price action chart lessons by Mack's PATS Trading (priceactiontradingsystem.com)

  #51 (permalink)
Chicago Illinois USA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tradestation
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 6 since Dec 2017
Thanks: 47 given, 8 received

20/20 Mack (PATS)


Trailer Guy View Post
Most buy his 90 pages of large type face book as a way to say thank you for the help. There are no secrets in his 4 times a week 20 minute absolutely free you tube videos. Many experienced successful traders use some or a lot of what he teaches. Which is simplified Al Brooks. He says in print if you want a more detailed explanation go read Brooks.

Unfortunately price action trading, taught by many, is always the same thing. You have to learn to identify and apply about a dozen (or more) patterns and it takes months of screen time, usually. If you are really inexperienced (no pre-conceived ideas) he says you may pick it up in a couple of weeks. Personally I would suggest working on identifying a couple of straight forward patterns then gradually add to what you are doing.

There is a lot of criticism of PATS by people who haven't figured it out and or do not understand trading math. Specific case the scalp runner combination. Several have commented over the years that it doesn't make sense to them. Yet Futures Trader 71 teaches a version of that method. As do others. Some men will not drive a Ford truck, what can you say.

Years ago I would read an Elliot Wave blog. A former professional (meaning he now just trades for his own account) trader would generously share his wave counts. When he changed them because of price not doing what he expected many would call him a flip flopper. I still follow him on Twitter (Coolbizone). He occasional posts his brokerage account. He is usually swing trading 20 contracts in the ES plus some options. He routinely takes $100,000 out of the market in a bigger move month. But the people on that site hounded him until he left. I try to keep that in mind when I see general non specific criticism of someones method.

I have tried a lot of things over the years. Van Tharp identifies me as an innovative trader. (with his free personality test)
I have spent many a lazy Saturday diving down the rabbit holes of various once popular threads. It always reminds me of when I was in high school many many years ago. The rumor went around about crates of WW11 Harley Davidsons packed in grease that never got shipped out. Well it was of course just a story but just about everybody in school who could turn a wrench was hot on the trail. And it was a lot more exciting than bagging groceries for a year so you could buy an old rust bucket car that sort of ran. Magic indicators are great but really a lot of people who regularly make money use basic stuff.

So the answer to your question is yes, trend lines, support resistance, fibs, prior day levels, awareness of important news releases, double tops and bottoms etc etc will work and will make you money. But you aren't going to get a lot of followers talking about trend lines. I am sure if I put up a trade log showing how I make 4 points at least once a day with a pullback failing at the 21 factor EMA when combined with a trend line no one would read it. Besides Mack shows you exactly where that happens four days a week.


While I have no doubts about the unrealistic expectations and often foolish demands made by novice traders the bottom line is that hindsight trading is next to useless. Drawing neat trendlines after all the market swings have been made does perhaps have some value but not much. Mack's videos would be far more useful if he traded at the hard right edge on a REGULAR BASIS, does not have to be live, does not have to be every day, even one day a week would be far more valuable than the almost daily 20/20 content he now produces. Yes, his videos are free but they are also a marketing tool, nothing wrong with this but let's call a spade a spade.

Furthermore, vendors need to put up or shut up, Dean Jenkins provides annual audited returns on his website. There is no valid reason why other vendors cannot do the same, NONE. Yes, perhaps anything can be faked or altered but this does not mean customers should grope around in the dark, especially when the barriers to entry in this business are practically nil.

I have analyzed numerous hedge fund and CTA prospectuses, I used to have a portfolio of over 25 managers, back when there was sufficient harvestable alpha in the markets. I have probably done due diligence on over 200 managers, I used a custom 30ish page checklist I personally developed over the years. I cannot remember one manager who did not provide audited returns or at least pro-forma returns. I can assure that you that any manager soliciting investments and unwilling to provide the aforementioned would be shunned for life. I think the trading community should treat vendors in same fashion, moreso the ones charging multiple thousands of dollars.


Last edited by ss108; August 10th, 2019 at 07:50 PM.
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  #52 (permalink)
Boise, Idaho/USA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker/Data: IB, NinjaTrader Brokerage, Schwab
Favorite Futures: TF, ES
 
Posts: 118 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 29 given, 194 received


ss108 View Post
While I have no doubts about the unrealistic expectations and often foolish demands made by novice traders the bottom line is that hindsight trading is next to useless. Drawing neat trendlines after all the market swings have been made does perhaps have some value but not much. Mack's videos would be far more useful if he traded at the hard right edge on a REGULAR BASIS, does not have to be live, does not have to be every day, even one day a week would be far more valuable than the almost daily 20/20 content he now produces. Yes, his videos are free but they are also a marketing tool, nothing wrong with this but let's call a spade a spade.

Furthermore, vendors need to put up or shut up, Dean Jenkins provides annual audited returns on his website. There is no valid reason why other vendors cannot do the same, NONE. Yes, perhaps anything can be faked or altered but this does not mean customers should grope around in the dark, especially when the barriers to entry in this business are practically nil.

I have analyzed numerous hedge fund and CTA prospectuses, I used to have a portfolio of over 25 managers, back when there was sufficient harvestable alpha in the markets. I have probably done due diligence on over 200 managers, I used a custom 30ish page checklist I personally developed over the years. I cannot remember one manager who did not provide audited returns or at least pro-forma returns. I can assure that you that any manager soliciting investments and unwilling to provide the aforementioned would be shunned for life. I think the trading community should treat vendors in same fashion, moreso the ones charging multiple thousands of dollars.

You are absolutely correct. The one point where I see an exception is the guy is selling a $90 pamphlet. And you don't really need it to figure out what he is doing. I just don't see where he is minting any significant coin off of his efforts at explaining how he trades. A recording of a weekly live trade would be great. That is one of the big reasons I listen to FuturesTrader 71 every morning because he always shows yesterdays scenarios against what really happened.

Somebody was being critical of Dr. Van Tharp because he isn't a great trader. But they are different skill sets, coaching and playing. Not all great coaches were hall of fame players. Watershed event for me was reading the story of the Turtle Traders. Same selection criteria to be a trader, same training, same starting accounts yet totally different results. Proved to me that a very successful and legendary trader was no good at developing new talent.

But the very very valid point you make is the way retail is treated by the industry and the regulators. People on this site have identified many out right frauds over the years. Public prognosticators never disclose their track records. If CNBC showed the win loss rate on past public calls by the people being on air, well I am pretty sure they would have to shut down for lack of guests. There was an advisory service that kept a track record of public calls by newsletter writers and TV personalities. pretty disappointing. But as long as money and politics are involved the regulators will never act to save the small people from the snake oil salesmen. I figure the people who can get hurt are the ones who just know enough to be a danger to themselves and haven't figured out yet that the personality making calls game is rigged.

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  #53 (permalink)
Boise, Idaho/USA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker/Data: IB, NinjaTrader Brokerage, Schwab
Favorite Futures: TF, ES
 
Posts: 118 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 29 given, 194 received


FT 71 and Mack at PATS do have something in common. They both go all in and then start taking scalps out leaving a runner. Yes their styles are different but that strategy they share. Many posters keep saying they don't understand scalping out and leaving a runner. Some sat they think it is nonsensical. I personally think that if you do not see how something can work it does not mean that it doesn't.

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  #54 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Dallas, TX
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT, TS
Broker/Data: IB, Oanda
Favorite Futures: ES, MES, MNQ, MYM
 
kareem40's Avatar
 
Posts: 568 since May 2010
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Trailer Guy View Post
FT 71 and Mack at PATS do have something in common. They both go all in and then start taking scalps out leaving a runner. Yes their styles are different but that strategy they share. Many posters keep saying they don't understand scalping out and leaving a runner. Some sat they think it is nonsensical. I personally think that if you do not see how something can work it does not mean that it doesn't.

Hi
I have not watched FT 71 much, but I remember one presentation were he scaled in ( to a winner) and presented the value of doing so.
Has that changed?

Thanks
K

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  #55 (permalink)
Boise, Idaho/USA
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker/Data: IB, NinjaTrader Brokerage, Schwab
Favorite Futures: TF, ES
 
Posts: 118 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 29 given, 194 received


kareem40 View Post
Hi
I have not watched FT 71 much, but I remember one presentation were he scaled in ( to a winner) and presented the value of doing so.
Has that changed?

Thanks
K

I assume nothing has changed. Usually he talks about where he is scaling out.

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  #56 (permalink)
Pittsburgh
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 1 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


Zaradis View Post
I'm a bit of a newbie and I'm just trying to find a profitable strategy that I can build upon and create my own. I have heard nothing but good things about Mack's PATs and have been contemplating purchasing it, especially for the cost. My issue is that I do not want to spend time studying and working on something that is going to end up being worthless to me. I have been there and done that for thousands of dollars trying to gain an edge trading the /ES, so I am very cautious.

So who here is finding success with PATs? If so, are you just following Mack's system or have you added your own flair onto the system?

Thanks in advance for the replies!

I started day trading the ES this year after I discovered Mack and PATs. Bought the manual and practiced every day. I used real money to start, actually had it set up so that I was looking at the ES chart but I would buy and sell SPY since I felt an ES contract was too much for me. As you would expect of someone starting fresh with trading the ES, I didn't do well the first few months.

Then I switched over to SIM and continued practicing every day. I also took less trades. Mack himself says that you only need two or three good trades a day to make it. I saw my results getting better, but I was still having some difficulty.

Then I discovered John Grady and No BS Day Trading, and his stuff on the DOM and order flow, and I really, really liked his philosophy and what he taught. So I implemented that into what I was already doing with PATs. And since the micro minis came out, I've been trading them.

So now I am trading live with the micros on Sierra Chart with a 2000 tick chart next to a DOM, combining both PATs and reading order flow. I find that PATs gives me a very good read on context, while order flow helps me fine-tune and zero in on setups. Occasionally I'll still take a trade based off the chart alone according to PATs rules, but I'm finding that most of the time I am focused first on order flow and second on the price action on the chart. Obviously it works best when both are pointing in the right direction, e.g we've pulled back to the trend line, a second entry short is forming, and orders aren't hitting offers as aggressively and bids are starting to get taken out with significant volume.

So I like and recommend PATs. I found it very helpful and foundational to my trading. I think Mack is a solid and sincere guy, and I do think his system can work. For me, I just found the DOM so much more helpful on top of what I had already learned from PATs.

Oh, and I started live trading like this (PATs + order flow) on June 27. Been profitable every day since July 25, averaging 2.07 points per day. I think it would be higher if I had a swing portion in addition to my scalps, but I've only been trading one micro contract, so I scalp out for 3-5 ticks a lot.

EDIT - I've also found that using order flow has allowed me to reduce risk a lot. Mack has you put your stop below what he (and Al Brooks) calls a "signal bar," with a maximum allowable stop of 2 points. Scalping for a point while risking two points was tough because losses were very hard to recover from. With order flow, I'm often able to get much smaller stops, by either picking a level that I think should hold or going with the momentum so that I "get the edge" and price never goes back against me. John Grady talks more about this in his class.

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