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Shadowtraders system. Scam or real? (www.shadowtraders.com)
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Shadowtraders system. Scam or real? (www.shadowtraders.com)

  #131 (permalink)
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Agree fractal on BM not same as ShadowTraders

I am not going to do anything with them because of the red flags mentioned, but I checked out a couple of their webinars and not matter what I did to the settings on BM fractal it never matched ST. Another person on this forum from Germany that has her program mentioned ST fractals factor in order flow which BM doesn't.

 
  #132 (permalink)
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When I went to Las Vegas, I found that the traders tended to be older people and many retired. There were also some intensely serious and dedicated traders there. I would get to the room at 5 am and it was already full of people. Some traders would come at 3 am to setup their computers. Maybe older people have better BS detectors whereas younger traders need a good show to trick them into believing they can make money the quick way. Who knows?

 
  #133 (permalink)
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madLyfe View Post
"people who can, do. people who cant, teach. people who cant teach, teach gym..." - HOUSE

There are many on this forum who can do and teach it
That , i believe is the nature of this whole forum
go figure

 
  #134 (permalink)
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jodistrict View Post
When I went to Las Vegas, I found that the traders tended to be older people and many retired. There were also some intensely serious and dedicated traders there. I would get to the room at 5 am and it was already full of people. Some traders would come at 3 am to setup their computers. Maybe older people have better BS detectors whereas younger traders need a good show to trick them into believing they can make money the quick way. Who knows?

And another way to look at it, is a lot of retired people pretend to be trader when they are really hobbyists, just look to pass the time and make a few nickels. I know some first hand. They talk good game and have no cattle for that big hat they are wearing.

 
  #135 (permalink)
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That "those who can't teach, teach gym" line is Woody Allen's (though he expanded George Bernard Shaw's original to make it funnier for his movie "Annie Hall").

I sat in one of ShadowTraders' demos once a few years ago, but they seemed to talk more about some "magic indicators" than anything else. Plus selling their indicators and courses. Didn't really get an impression from that either way if they were profitable using their system.

 
  #136 (permalink)
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My ST perspective

After reading through this entire thread I’m going to put my $.02 in, will probably regret doing so later, but will do it anyway. I’m not going to directly quote anyone’s previous remarks as they appear to have been heavily bantered around by this time.

I’ve taken the basic ST and 4-day course and have and use some (not all) of their software. I took the course because I didn’t know anything about trading futures at the time and after some research they appeared to offer a reasonably good starting point. The cost was not too expensive ($1000 at the time) and for me was a good investment. They update their software frequently providing enhancements to it and keeping it in sync with the Ninja upgrades, at no additional cost. I’ve seen improvements in their web site and the training material on it which is upgraded with new instruction and information on how to use their indicators, both existing and any new ones introduced, again at no additional cost.

Occasionally ST comes out with new training for additional costs, like the 4-day webinar ($700 at the time). This is a onetime fee and the user can retake the course as many times as they desire. I’ve done it at least 5 times now, again at no additional cost. Any of you folks with college degrees attempt to retake your college courses? I have no direct experience with their off-site training as I’ve never taken it, but just recalling the costs at about $1000 for 5-days including room and board does not seem unreasonable to me. Granted the sites chosen, although in popular places (Las Vegas, the Bahammas, …) are in off season so the rates are better anyway. That is how they keep the costs down. All-in-all I don’t consider it a rip off for these services which may help to put them in a "non-scam" category.

The Wednesday and Thursday classes taught by Melanine are all free. Melaine was an early student of ST and teaches her style of trading that is significantly different than Barbara’s, as was mentioned before. She trades (real money) for between 2 and 3 hours a day and no more. She readily admits to having good days and some bad ones. She also admits to having lost a lot of money at various times until she got her psychological act together. So the choice here is whether or not to believe them.

As to whether or not it’s a “Scam” I can’t answer that directly unless someone will define what they consider a scam. From what I can tell they have a good following so either people are both stupid and have deep enough pockets to keep trying until they can’t. Or, they are successful enough (whatever that is) or believe they will be to keep following their style of trading. My son who also took the basic course makes money partially because of what he learned and who knows what his other reasons are. I’ve watched him trade and I shudder.

As to the marketing which I have also heard mentioned, how many things (products or services) are out there where there is not some sort of marketing? To my knowledge, ST does not have a marketing organization, and everything is done by word of mouth and their Tuesday night webinar. So of course if you attend it would you not expect at least some sort of a marketing pitch. I’ve never got a marketing call and only occasional marketing related emails when some event was coming up. I subscribe to various market related research newsletters and every time I get an invite to attend a “free” webinar to gain “insight” to what is going on in the world, Washington D.C., Europe, …, I know for sure the will be a marketing pitch for some new newsletter, trading service, or whatever. But so what, I attend anyway, learn what I can and tolerate it until they get heavy with the marketing and then hit the big “X” button.

By now there are those that probably think that I am a ST “shill”. I am not. I’m retired and over 70 y/o. I can tell you for sure that nothing, I repeat “nothing” works like it did 30-40 years ago. So for me having the ability to retake training again and again with no additional costs until it penetrates my thick skull is a benefit. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that no matter how many times I take the training that I will be “successful”, especially when measured according to another's definition. So I respectfully request that any or all of you who are experts and successful please, please put something together that allows me to become as successful as you are. I will gladly attend. However, should you decide to do so be ready to get labeled or criticized because it is impossible to make everyone happy. By no means do I consider ST to be perfect in what they do, I have my peeves too. I do get responses to my emails, albeit not necessarily to my liking and are mostly pretty curt. And I do not like that there is no notification process when new software or training videos are added to their site, and so on..

BigMike’s site does a wonderful job of pulling many talented people that are willing to share their ideas, indicators, methods, concepts, etc. for which I am grateful. However, some of these things are well beyond my current level of understanding. Learning how to use some of the things (indicators, etc) offered here is mostly attained by reading related threads, a time consuming process. This is what I see as the value of formalized training where the course is designed to teach in a progressive manner. Anyone here take calculus before algebra? As I see it ST does a pretty good job at this.

As to whether or not Barbara is a professional trader. To my knowledge and as per her claims she is a mathematician and programmer, turned trader. When that happened I have no idea. If she is making good money trading because of what she knows and can do from her other talents, that makes her professional in my eyes. Having to work in the pits, manage a hedge fund or whatever is not a requirement as far as I’m concerned. I’ve seen her in her morning trading sessions trade in a live market, both on the sim and real (which she doesn’t announce unless asked and always afterwards) and consistently get 3-4 ticks. As mentioned elsewhere she is a “gap” trader, goes for 3-4 ticks, and uses 5 contracts. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t pay what I do for commissions, and if she can average 90% success with 10 trades/day in 2-2.5 hours, and 5 contracts I would happily do it too. Unfortunately I’m ill suited for that kind of trading.

Say or think what you will, but if you were to ask me if I would do it again my answer is “Yes” even though I have not attained the level of success that I desire (yet). That is a problem of my making and not theirs. I’ve spent far more money for other trainings (stock and options) and have gotten nowhere near as much out of them. Unfortunately I haven’t seen an aptitude or psychological test for fledgling traders and if there were ones I might even fail, who knows.


Last edited by Cheech; October 30th, 2012 at 07:19 AM.
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  #137 (permalink)
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dandxg View Post
And another way to look at it, is a lot of retired people pretend to be trader when they are really hobbyists, just look to pass the time and make a few nickels. I know some first hand. They talk good game and have no cattle for that big hat they are wearing.

Contrary to my previous post in this post I would like to address the comments by @dandxg

I can not speak for the retired people that you either know or met at whatever it is you attend that gives you your opinion. Maybe it's accurate and maybe it's not. I can speak for myself and other retired (or near retirement) people that I know that trade or are attempting to learn to trade.

Most of us probably did not retire from a trading profession. Like you, many of us are interested in making money but, in our case it is probably more for the purpose of supplementing our incomes so that we can enjoy whatever remains of our time on this planet. So yes, we may be trading for nickles as you put it rather than dollars, which you might be after. However, what you might be missing is that our needs are not like yours. Many of us have downsized our homes, our children are out of college and on their own, those that are lucky enough have their houses paid off, etc. Does that mean we are any less serious about our trading. I for one am not. Maybe there are those that are hobbyists, not unlike doctors, airline pilots, or whomever that have another profession and also trade. Would you call them hobbyists too?

Maybe they are looking to set themselves up for a second career when they retire, supplement their income from their full time or part time job that's just not making it, or maybe just having a backup plan should the bottom fall out of their existing job or career.

Consider that I may not be willing to spend long hours at a computer to make dollars if I can spend a lot less time and make the nickles I need. This is very clearly ones' priority on time vs. money, and for those of us that have made it to this point in our lives (you may want to consider the possibility that you may not, and if you do that your opinions may change, and if they don't that it may not be in your best interests), time is very important to us. Personally if had enough money to meet my meager needs and a bit more, trading is not a hobby I would choose. I for one do not want , desire, or need that kind of stress especially in my later years. I spend a lot more time reading, learning, and practicing trading then I really want to. That is the only way I can even hope to become good enough to make my nickles. Because my target is nickles instead of dollars doesn't mean I am not serious in what I do. One size in anything does not fit all.


Last edited by Cheech; October 30th, 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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  #138 (permalink)
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Cheech View Post
Contrary to my previous post in this post I would like to address the comments by @dandxg

I can not speak for the retired people that you either know or met at whatever it is you attend that gives you your opinion. Maybe it's accurate and maybe it's not. I can speak for myself and other retired (or near retirement) people that I know that trade or are attempting to learn to trade.

Most of us probably did not retire from a trading profession. Like you, many of us are interested in making money but, in our case it is probably more for the purpose of supplementing our incomes so that we can enjoy whatever remains of our time on this planet. So yes, we may be trading for nickles as you put it rather than dollars, which you might be after. However, what you might be missing is that our needs are not like yours. Many of us have downsized our homes, our children are out of college and on their own, those that are lucky enough have their houses paid off, etc. Does that mean we are any less serious about our trading. I for one am not. Maybe there are those that are hobbyists, not unlike doctors, airline pilots, or whomever that have another profession and also trade. Would you call them hobbyists too?

Maybe they are looking to set themselves up for a second career when they retire, supplement their income from their full time or part time job that's just not making it, or maybe just having a backup plan should the bottom fall out of their existing job or career.

Consider that I may not be willing to spend long hours at a computer to make dollars if I can spend a lot less time and make the nickles I need. This is very clearly ones' priority on time vs. money, and for those of us that have made it to this point in our lives (you may want to consider the possibility that you may not, and if you do that your opinions may change, and if they don't that it may not be in your best interests), time is very important to us. Personally if had enough money to meet my meager needs and a bit more, trading is not a hobby I would choose. I for one do not want , desire, or need that kind of stress especially in my later years. I spend a lot more time reading, learning, and practicing trading then I really want to. That is the only way I can even hope to become good enough to make my nickles. Because my target is nickles instead of dollars doesn't mean I am not serious in what I do. One size in anything does not fit all.

Hey if it's working for you great. My post was not meant as an attack at all just an honest observation of people I know that at 60+ and trading. Some of them are supplementing their income, but not with much success frankly, but hey we all know that stats on trading and failure and that spans the entire age bracket.

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  #139 (permalink)
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dandxg View Post
Hey if it's working for you great. My post was not meant as an attack at all just an honest observation of people I know that at 60+ and trading. Some of them are supplementing their income, but not with much success frankly, but hey we all know that stats on trading and failure and that spans the entire age bracket.

@dandxg Not a problem as I didn't take it as an attack. I have no doubt that there are some (or maybe even a lot more then I think) that are doing it as a hobby and if they have the money to throw at it and lose it that's fine by me. The only thing I wanted to point out that I feel you excluded is that there are a lot of retired folks on the other side of that coin. I know some personally and I see others at trading seminars, meeting, etc. that are spending their time and money in an attempt to learn how to trade. Unfortunately I can't tell whether they are just serious hobbyists (maybe their wives will only allow them to lose so much, who knows) looking for some excitement or serious traders and quite honestly I guess as long as they are serious then I guess the reason becomes a moot point.

I figure another way of looking at it is if they don't want to invest the necessary time and effort to learn how trade and to make money doing it then they may be the ones on the other side of your winning trade in this zero sum game, at least until they tire of playing (or their wives put the hammer to them). As you correctly point out, that goes for all age groups .


Last edited by Cheech; October 31st, 2012 at 09:46 PM.
 
  #140 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
I agree with TT, but this is a debate for so long. "Extra Money"?

How much extra money do you need to make if you are truly a successful trader? I could see opening up your own brokerage and growing an empire, but not sure teaching is the easiest or highest $ per hour return. Of course it is the way to 'give back' but that could also be done for free, but it is an eternal debate and I think for me personally it is impossible for me to understand why they do it unless they are not doing well enough.
I have heard that it could sharpen your trading as well, which I think is a possibly legit reason, but I don't see how teaching 1,000 people makes sense if that is the purpose?

The first chapter in "How to win Friends and Infulence People" tells us what Freud and a couple of other famous psychologists said about this. I'll paraphrase: People have a basic need to be important. People want to be need by other people. So, if someone gets good at something, it is natural that they would want to teach it. I like to teach my friends how to play chess and backgammon. I get Kudos but no money for it. They can admire me and I get to feel important.
-Duck-


Last edited by Trader Duck; November 10th, 2012 at 05:03 AM. Reason: wording

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