I'm curious if anyone here has done a Market Profile course offered by Mark Stone which he calls the PiVVot Trading method. He claims to average 3-10 points per trade on the ES. He previously ran a blog under the name of "Jeff Stone". The last time his course was offered earlier this year the fee was about $3000. I haven't been able to find any testimonials.
What gets me is how they act like this is a new discovery..it's not. I also don't like all the hype going on, kind of a red flag to me. If they have some kind of free trial thing go ahead and take it for a test drive. If they don't just walk away,there are a number of other places that are not so sales oriented. You could give these guys a try (free trial),
I have had experience with him and have high regard for his operation. Market Profile, Auction Market Theory, Futures Trading, Next Generation
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I trade a couple different approaches but like to split up my day with webinars and such.
He has a 3 hour+ free webinar on November 3rd.
His free intro webinars are extremely lucid. Proof is in the pudding. The rub is, that his extened free webinars (last one was 100+minutes) and then (below) are indeed a sales pitch (isn't everything in life)...
My guess is the same ol same ol of 2-3K in one or 3 installments and then $600.00 per month to join him in the room.
Typical risk is 1-2.5pts per trade with him; he scales in 1 time if necessary and does add to his base '1 position' after peeling off @some profits as price moves back into his zone for buying. He does use extended targets.
For me to pay that kind of money I would need to watch someone day after day for at least 20 trading days; after 10 days of constant success I would trade 1-2 contracts and would need to avg. $200-300 net net per day to then pay him alot of money.
I would need to not see ANY non-congruencies in the trading room nor in his approach or anything; I would require a MACHINE.
The thing is, one will get a 'taste' and then have to buy the whole cow; nope, I don't do that.
As I wrote, I trade a few nice trading methods intraday (one I developed off of Big Mike & one from a vendor)--but I do like to see what the vendors have to sell (keeps things interesting).
Odercin sends out the hyped out emails on his mailing list for his former student Stone with provocative title and then gives the email recipient the usual 1-3 pages of sales copy.
Like a poster mentioned, Stone's old blog stopped posting in April '11. Stone says because he was so busy with his 'students' is why he stopped the blog. Most likely his blog was started a bit before he and John tag-teamed for a nice 100-200K for students the 1st time around.
I am sure that Stone hooked up with Odercin in order to make premium bucks (and I guess most regular people would, if being a vendor was their MAIN source of income)? Though MANY reputable vendors are much less expensive.
I am sure ALL of John Odercin's products are very expensive.
Stone would have to offer full access for a month where one could clearly LEARN and also place good trades for me to have any more than a passing interest.
Though, he is not looking for an experienced trader to sign up for 2-3K upfront and then $400-600 per month to be in his room.
Let him prove me wrong.
peace
Hedvig/researcher247
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Hook up with John Ondercin, master marketer with Bentley pricing plans!!!
This is truly a case where the student becomes the master.
I attended all the webinars and reviewed all the edited email videos, etc...
Mark Stone is the student that became the master.
Market Profile--Grade A He uses a few things and they are all valid.
Pyschology--Grade A Mark focuses 80% on this--and the 20% for execution is decisive and pre-planned.
Trade Management--Grade A Acceptable reward to risk ratios and at times, exceptional reward to risk.
Price--Grade F He basically lets John Ondercin bombard you with several emails per day as Mark's 10 day presentation marketing style then warrants the following OUTRAGEOUS pricing structure. PiVVoT Point Method Comprehensive Mentorship Program
Effort--Grade A Mark is a worker and an earner--I couldn't ask for more effort and attention to questions, etc...
ROI per day/week/month--Grade incomplete Beats me? Everyone trades differently and some scale out and some trade full lots to final target.
Platform--Grade A Ninjatrader7 is sexy and sleek and she is smooth like butter baby
Overall opinion (yes, this is my opinion): Every trader needs to EARN the right to trade up in size over time. It is all about YOU every day, in the trenches and at times we all have to 'suck it' and at times we all think we are invincible.
Their is no wealth without work--(I might add there is no wealth without patience, discipline, planning, execution and a bit of luck; well, I could go on for several paragraphs here, but I am not going to do that).
Simply put, I would prefer that Mark Stone marketed his work differently; hooking up with John Ondercin guarantees the 'Bentley' pricing model; my guess is that he'll gross 250K 2X's per year doing these multi-day sales campaigns.
After all, every 6 months there is fresh meat in the markets--they provide liquidity; we all gotta eat.
I don't have any opinion on overall grade or if I would buy it because I know my personality/psychology/trading style etc...and I will not look at one market every day for 3+ hours; I am not a sniper.
My style is more like a rabid raccoon that likes to bite your ankles so that you drop your hamburger at the campground--I take my nibble and then run off to another campsite for another morsel.
peace
Hedvig
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Thanks! I really do identify with the sneaky raccoon; I nibble on several markets everyday--never monogamous to any particular timeframe (I use alot of discipline lately and watch 4-5 timeframes intraday in each market), though fast volume charts seem to be my preference lately.
I am looking into Renko more and more each day (range bars too).
Mark's Market Profile tools are being marketed for the ES; though I could see it working in alot of different markets. Especially markets that used to have a big pit open, like CL and ZN or ZB and of course, grains.
If I were to use market profile I would limit myself to the 1st 90 minutes of any market I was following; that is where all the 'juice' is (usually).
Mark does an hour of prep work for the ES every a.m. before the 8:30am CST open and then stalks a setup; sometimes waiting up to an hour or two for a setup that he has planned out beforehand. That is definitely like a sniper.
I don't classify myself as a 'gunslinger' trader anymore--I patiently wait for a good setup, but my 'stalking a trade' wait times now are usually 3-8 minutes before a good setup appears.
I continue to find it fascinating how all traders have their own preference and how we all interact in the electronic marketplace everyday; even after 25+ years of trading.
Well, I made it to the end of John Ondercin's marketing blitz. I need a drink!! No less than probably 50+ emails since around November 3rd. The 2X's per year offering ended as of Monday night EST. I have to hand it to that 'sausage-fingered' full head of hair smooth talking white pimp Ondercin; he writes FABULOUS copy!!!
He had me feeling bad about myself as a person in a couple of his emails he sent me. Even his assistant was cordial when I linked my earlier review to Ondercin himself. Salesman NEVER take anything personally, and after you drag their d*ck in the dirt a little--they patiently wait; then go back to ABC--always be closing.
I should have been an internet copywriter 'cause I have been doing it wrong my entire adult life!!
Recall, Mark Stone is the person who is doing the mentoring 120 hours for about 4K and then about $500 per month ongoing.
I gave grades in one of my earlier updates. I stand by that assessment.
I would only consider doing this type of program under the following conditions...
a) I was deeply interested in Market Profile and the intraday auction process
b) Was committed to about 3 hours of market time (1 hour pre-market prep) each day without interruption
c) Would have to spread the investment with 1 or 2 other traders (I don't pay thousands upfront, even for mentorship in an online group webinar setting).
peace
Hedvig
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This old set of posts was helpful, thanks. I just watched a webinar of John Ondercin who now has new courses on trading futures a "smart" way and a full options training course. Bunch of nicely packaged courses on his website now.
I almost fell for it because I was looking to furthering my option education on weeklies. But after this webinar he kept assuming most of his audience were complete newbies to NT and futures. I guess that's his target audience in webinar after webinar. He might as well have volunteered to do one of the repeating weekly basic intro to NT webinars for Ninjatrader!
His free "10 video" course on trading could have been summed up in one summary post on futures.io (formerly BMT) i.e. "what is trading for yourself at home???"
