I noticed that DionysusToast is a vendor. Probably been identified as a vendor for a long time but I just noticed it and went to his website. Found a free offering of a book called "Surviving Day Trading" and read it. I found this book to be very easy to read, interesting and informative. Getting the book requires registration but you can also unsubscribe after you get the book. One thing I've concluded about DionysusToast is that he can piss you off but is very straightforward and does not pull the punches but has a lot to offer. Anyway, thought I'd mention it in case anyone is interested.
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I agree........with the "he's got a lot to offer" part...........the time and sales indicator that he sells is the best that I have ever seen..........way better than the regular time and sales.........
The following 3 users say Thank You to Jeff Castille for this post:
Actually........the last thread that I tried to start was dealing with Time and Sales........it was my hope that Dionysus Toast would be able to freely contribute.......however Big Mike shot down that idea because Dionysus Toast was a vendor. Big loss for the forum.
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Hello from Russia. Say thank you Google translator for meaning. I myself with the English at the dog. Woof woof.
In any case, glad to share experience with overseas counterparts. If you like the post, do not bother, write a response.
Your Alex.
However, DT's hands are tied because he is a vendor.......he really can't speak freely without violating forum rules and thereby getting himself banned.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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This is not true.
He can talk about time and sales or anything else he wants. What he can't do is promote his product, this means he cannot talk about his product or promote his product by describing its features or performance. This would include screenshots of his product.
I can't please everyone, but I believe these guidelines help far more than they hurt.
You are of course free to talk to DT privately. I am not stopping you from communicating with him if you want to talk to him.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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Jeff, I assume you own his product. You are free to talk about it since you are not a vendor or the author of it, and it would not be self promotion. DT is free to talk about his experience in the market, but he cannot use his posts to promote his product.
Last, anyone is free to private message him to talk about whatever they want.
I have to jump in. I Agree with you Jeff, but I also understand Big Mike's position.
However since I have no affiliation with Jigsaw I can speak. One can go to his website and see the screen shots and also the videos. I did as I've always wanted to consider this approach but never had a tool.
First thing I did was check the price. If it was in the stratosphere I'd have been out of there. But the price is extremely reasonable so I watched videos and webinars.
I've since downloaded the trial(again a very reasonable approach). After understanding the usages and the fact it isn't a "system", but a tool, I watched today. I fear I am hooked.
Pete
PS Just to clarify, I have no affiliation with Jigsaw, have not had any correspondence with them. I am just a very impressed trialer
The following 2 users say Thank You to Peter2150 for this post:
Yes.......I have spoken to DT several times.......interesting guy.
I like his product..........but alas.......I lack the insights that DT has........so no one would gain much by me talking about it.
I guess I would like to see a section in futures.io (formerly BMT) where vendors could do their thing........futures.io (formerly BMT) users could enter at their own risk knowing that the vendor wants to try and sell them something.......let the vendors take their best shot to demonstrate their wares. Each forum member can decide if he wants to view the vendor area or not and it would be clear that futures.io (formerly BMT) does NOT endorse any particuliar product. In a way the vendors are doing this now......only they are limited by what they can show.........
Anyway.......just a thought.
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I previously suggested this..........much like we have let Felton do webinars.......but Big Mike felt that the Felton thing was pushing the limits and he didn't want to go any farther with other vendors.
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Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
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Platform: My own custom solution
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OK so lets take any further "policy" posts out of this thread, you can make a new thread if you want in the Feedback section of the forum. But lets let this post get back on-topic of reviewing the product, and not debating the policies of futures.io (formerly BMT).
hi
Someone tested products of the given author - they stand attention?
* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
I have just read the free lessons ( Tape Reading Introduction Lessons ) and watched associated videos.
I do not not use Ninja Trader, so I cannot test the proposed tools, and consequently I have no opinion on them.
But these free lessons already give good foundation for tape reading and DOM reading. Thanks for this.
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I am currently learning tape/DOM reading and Jigsaw Trading products have aroused my interest.
All the more as they have been recommended to me by a full-time DOM trader.
Is anybody using Jigsaw products and willing to share his/her view?
In which aspects to they make a difference compared to "normal" tape and DOM?
(Of course, I have read the description of the products, but which features have you found to be a real "bonus" in your actual trading?)
Do these tools also help in the learning curve of tape and DOM reading (more useful screentime)?
Do you use the tools alone, or in combination with other things?
I bought Pete's stuff and i believe it was worth every penny. First i thought i would use the reconstructed tape exclusively to confirm entries in my own plan. But i have recently shifted toward using his version of the DOM which is a bit overwhelming when you first look at it...there are a ton of numbers and it is intimidating at first. But i started watching it around my setups and what i found was that the change in the limits in the book - which his tool shows in real time - was very valuable information for me.
Without going into mind numbing detail, it allowed (i have been sidelined from trading for the last month for personal reasons) me to really cut some trades short that ultimately would have hit my stop. This aspect worked great on the currencies (6A, 6B and 6E) and some of the indices (NQ, ES, but not TF or YM fyi) for me. I use it to confirm entries and assist in my money management on trades.
I now watch Pete's DOM and Summary tape on each setup and am still leaning. He also has lots of good free learning in his forums. for 300 or so $$$ its a no - brainer. When I bought it, i did so with the mindset that i was buying a "tool" that would take me years to master/learn. being a 'part timer' i found it added value within thirty days.
Watch his DOM around key levels for several hours a day and it will make sense. Now what would be astounding would be if you could actually trade on his DOM ....cmon Pete - i know you can do it.
thanks
Duncan
The following 6 users say Thank You to greenroomhoo for this post:
I bought the Jigsaw products about 4 months ago. Only get to trade live at this time about one day a week but Pete's
products are basically all I have on my charts. The DOM hasn't helped me as much as the reconstructed tape has but
that's probably because I trade a thin market. I use 2 recon tapes and just a couple of lines of the summary tape .
Pete has answered any questions I had promptly and has a ton of free info on his site.
Still struggling to understand all its potential but of all the indicators I have purchased in the last 3 years, this is
the only lot I would purchase again if I had to.
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tried the product, after awhile your eyes go crazy watching all those numbers go up and down, same for my trading buddies, better idea ! some programmer should attach the prints and the dom sizes as they change on the actual chart, something like the GOM delta ladder only for T&S prints and DOM bid ask volume size
Is your comment (too many figures going up and down) targeted at Jigsaw products in particular or tape/DOM reading in general?
I mean...
By design, it seems to me that there are less figures on Jigsaw tapes compared to "normal" tape. Simply because the reconstructed tape is an aggregation, and the summary tape is... a summary.
With respect to the Depth & Sales, for sure there is more information than on an "usual" DOM. But isn't it the reason of the very existence of this tool? (bringing relative persistence to the DOM). When we buy a product which gives information, it is not abnormal that... it gives information. By the way, all columns may be hidden in order to keep only the additional information that you need.
Do not misinterpret me. I am not criticizing your criticism. Just trying to see if your feeling is coming from the tools or from the field (tape/DOM) in general.
Nicolas
For the sake of transparency: I am not associated with Jigsaw but I am a (recent) client.
its not a tool you can look at for a week or two and fully comprehend it. You really have to be committed to using it to find it valuable.
After 6 months of watching it around every one of my "setups" i have found patterns and "feelings" from watching it. It has kept me out of some full stops and kept me out of some winners. However, i can now sense when my entry is going to stop me lowering my average full stop from 10 or 11 ticks to 5 or 6 ticks.
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Today my biggest winner on NQ was "almost a setup" on my charts. By that I mean it was not quite an ideal entry that i was watching and, exercising good discipline, i was holding myself back from entering.
I was watching Pete's DOM and the rhythm of the bids and offers being pulled. All of the sudden it just "felt" very heavy and I knew it was going down. Entered and had a nice runner.
I also took another trade that by my rules would have been a full stop. Using Pete's tools I did not like the action on the DOM when it was in my favor by a couple of ticks and I limited my way out. Without Pete's tools i would have just sat their waiting for my stop to get hit.
Disclaimer - I have spent A LOT of time staring at these things.
When i first bought Pete's stuff - my monitor was 90% charts and 10% Pete's stuff. Now i am 50 - 50 as i stare more at Pete's tools than my charts.
I actually think the 6A and 6E are the easiest to use these tools on.....they are not as jumpy as NQ or TF.
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As I said in an earlier post, I bought the Jigsaw package for my PC. Due to my wife's health, we will be spending the next couple of months in Houston, Texas. I emailed Pete, explained my situation and asked about purchasing the indicators for my laptop. He emailed right away and gave me the new indicator package.
Thanks Pete, your a class act.
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I usually code all my own indicators, but became really interested in Pete's Depth&Sales tool. I contacted him and he set me up with a free trial. After using the products for a couple weeks, I decided they were worth every penny he charges (This is the ONLY tools/indicators I have ever spent $ on)
Reconstructed Tape: There are many "reconstructed" TS tools out there, and a lot of them are great tools(@vvhg 's aggregateTS comes to mind). This tool has a couple features that gave it the edge in my book. The first feature is being able to see the size of the Bid/Ask when a trade is reported, and the second is the ability to split Bid and Ask in separate windows. I personally have 3 TS windows open, 1 with all trades,1 Bid, and 1 Ask. Sometimes having the trades split this way make it easier to see size and levels being penetrated. The window with all the trades gives me the "flow" of the tape, which is pretty important during active periods.
Summary Tape: I don't really use this tool too much because I can't feel the flow like the regular tape. Maybe I'm just used to a regular tape, but I can't get used to this tool. However, I do use the tool. The iceberg feature is the main reason I use this tool. Maybe seeing it used in a live trade might sway my opinion, but for now I keep this window minimized and use it as an iceberg hunter
Depth&Sales: This is my favorite tool in the package, and is in a tight race between it and MP for my favorite tool. If Pete added VA levels and VWAP to Depth&Sales, it would win my award for the best tool out there This tool is a DOM on steroids. It is a combination of MP, DOM, T&S, and Delta. I'm sure this much information can be overwhelming, however if you already pay attention to MP, LII data, TS, and Delta, this puts it all on one screen.
I consider this package a set of tools, not an indicator package. There is no buy here sell there signals, just A LOT of information that can be very useful if you are used to using that information. I am no pro, and do not claim to be one, but I can say that these tools add to my trading rather than distract me from what the market is actually doing.
Xav
London Calling
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Purchased the tools a week or so ago, really excellent addition to tape reading! I am impressed by Pete's praise for other traders and their teachings, and his encouragment to seek them out. A solid company IMO
Same here. Bought the tools several weeks ago. I wonder now how I could watch the Dom and Tape without it quite frankly. Great tools, probably the best money I have spent, on ten same level as futures.io (formerly BMT) membership!
Peter also happens to be a very commendable guy, and has answered very promptly all of the hundreds of questions I have sent him.
Read thru the whole thread, and am glad to hear positive feedback. Just wondering if those of you using this tool feel it is still valuable in the overnight session? I find that most of my trading is done between 530-730am CST. finding it hard to decide when to let a trade run, or just take a few ticks. Mainly trading CL, GC and 6e at this time of day.
This is a time I trade as we're on a different time zone, and yes it is just as good during those hours than at any other time. I try the 6E mainly as well as other contracts, and while I am not yet good to the point where I can enter/exit only with the Dom/Tape, I can tell you that if anything, it helps me A LOT to know when to exit, let run etc..
Rather than take anyone's word for it, you could trial the tools and see for yourself if it helps. I find it does a lot, but everyone is different and it takes some practice and screentime too.
I got an email announcement from jigsaw. They have a new version 4.0 of their tools.
Part of the email and video link:
"Hi All
We are happy to announce that Version 4.0 of the Jigsaw Tools has now been released. The feedback from people in the industry as well as the beta testers has been fantastic.
There's quite a few new readability enhancements and of course, you can now trade directly from the Depth & Sales screen. Here is a short video showing the changes:
For existing customers, you can download the new version from your members.jigsawtrading.com page. If you don't have a login, then let us know and we'll create one.
You can install V4.0 alongside your old V3.0 version of Jigsaw Tools. The new indicators all start with the name "JT_V4" and you will need to replace the "JT_V3" versions on your existing workspaces. The JT_V4_DepthSales indicator allows SIM Trading.
"
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Really like the Jigsaw DOM. But for some reason I was not aware that they will be charging a monthly fee to continue using the DOM for live trading until I got the email about it yesterday. So I am disappointed with that announcement although Jigsaw has every right to make money obviously.
"Typical vendor" is usually used by traders to refer to people who sell products of little or no value, and of questionable originality, at inflated prices.
Jigsaw has come up with some novel ideas and executed them well. Lots or people see it as a great tool and a great value, and other people (including myself) have created DOMs and other tools that use concepts developed by Jigsaw.
That seems like a company that has made a strongly positive contribution to the trading community. We'd be fortunate if it were typical.
Apart from that, I really don't understand the prejudice against vendors. It's not as if trading is an altruistic activity, where we are sacrificing ourselves for the good of society.
The following user says Thank You to futuretrader for this post:
Pete is far from a "typical vendor". He is not selling a "system" or a "get rich quick scheme". He is selling a tool. Either you find value in that tool or you dont.
For the price, it is the best tool available and his support is excellent.
I was not "thrilled" with the add- on price for trading on his DOM but....$500 is completely immaterial if you find value in the tool.
My trading is like my avatar: Big, Hairy, and Full of S$&T.
Pete is a great cat and his coding is first class.
V4 rocks and just as soon as I can justify a monthly license, I will be on board for the "Live"
version. I'm barely making ends meet as it is with my trading.
But I'm making it, and Pete's tools are critical to my (hopefully) continued success.
With the new MP painting, it will be all I need for a while. That is really what I have been waiting on.
The R Tape is amazing also.
Hi guys...have interacted with Pete & his support on quick responses rocks!!. I have just got myself the product ...will install later into the weekend. Is there a preference of Ninja version?
Either ways.....have never looked at tape ...& realized have been shalacked at wrong times. Just going through some of the free posts on the site...helped me....hence am confident that it will aid in complementing my other strategies of entry/exit.
cheers
som
The following user says Thank You to paps for this post:
I never said he isn't a good person or doesn't have good code. Vendors always have something new to sell you, always. In the case of trading there will always be a line of people there to buy their product. You don't have to sell a "system" to sell people hope...of what they can do with that tool.
You have to sign up for the free trial using your paypal, which means people have to remember to cancel before the end of the period, why not just tie it to all existing ID's and make it expire after 3 months so you don't have to sign up for a paypal subscription? Oh right, he's a vendor and gotta make that extra money off people who forget to cancel. I don't support vendors, especially one's who require a subscription to use a "tool" or indicator. I don't support the concept that if the vendor decides to disappear one day that if you are using his tools or indicators that you would be screwed, assuming you are actually making money. I guess that is why I don't use vendor indicators or I just pay a coder to code something I really want that hasn't already been coded for free. You also get the open source code and exactly what you want--I suggest you go this route, I have.
True "professionals" probably use X-Trader, Reuters, or some other custom product that isn't Ninja and have their code completely custom, or that's at least what a few hedge fund managers have told me. "NinjaTrader, what's that?" lol! Good luck.
500 is immaterial. If I were going to pay that I would just pay a coder more money to just code something completely custom and I would always have the source code and not worry about the vendor disappearing or charging me to upgrade again or sell me something else that I "need."
@Jack22 I'm very confused by your posts. This is a vendor review thread, and from your posts, you don't use vendor products. My question is why are you bashing a vendor that runs a business(yes that means he has to make money for his time and effort), when you aren't using his product? I could code something similar to these tools, but my time is worth WAY more to me than the $350 that is charged. Designing, coding, debugging, protecting, and testing the whole set of tools would take around 500 hrs. A freelance coder charges $50 - $100 / hr so you do the math.
Do you have an actual review of the product??
London Calling
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I was pretty sure that vendor policies are part of the review process....people saying how great their customer service is ok, but if I disagree with their policies, I guess that isn't a review of that vendor.
lol @Jack22...real funny. I think you had the right intention....but probably did not come out that way.
well i have been with the best of traders<<<it never made me the best...lol far far away from it
been around the best of Phds working financials << never made me even understand 0.1% of what Algo's they design
likewise there are very good vendors around...<<i have a few products where there is no trial...take it or leave it...but that does'nt mean the product is not worth it. Is probably 100times more valuable than what i may have paid...even considering that the products may already be expensive.
either ways....using the best product out there...will not make one a good trader. Likewise it may be unfair to be critical if one does not had a 1st hand bad experience with it. Also the bad experience at times cannot be blamed on a product unless one has very sound knowledge of the game. just my humble 2cents.
cheer....tgif
thnx
s
The following user says Thank You to paps for this post:
I am a customer of Pete's as well. Hopelessly addicted to depth and sales, and time and sales.
However, I don't trade enough that I must PLACE ORDERS off that DOM, so I won't be paying the subscription fee. Also I try to own the products I buy, not lease.
Some guys are talented enough to recall what has happened in the DOM with a TT style presentation...I'm not. I need the Jigsaw DOM in order to see the bergs, the pulling and stacking at my levels.
Next to my Rancho tools, my DOM tools are irreplaceable.
XS
The following user says Thank You to xiaosi for this post:
Plenty of people have asked to cancel after more than 14 days because they forgot.
Others have asked for more time to trial & were given it.
Some had tech issues at the start and so I pre-empted a request for more trial time.
Thus far, not a single person has been refused a refund.
I think you should at least have some basis for the accusations you are making.
The software isn't for everyone but those that are willing to pay a refundable amount for a trial are generally serious about it, so I don't spend time with those that aren't. An added benefit my side is that repeat trialers will eventually run out of credit cards to buy trials on as we don't allow the same one twice.
It's not an accusation, those are your policies and most time those policies are instituted to gain extra money off of people who forget cancel. Color it how you want but most normal rational people I think see things this way, but your die hard defenders won't. You were never accused of refusing refunds because I am sure you wouldn't do that, but forcing people to sign up for the subscription to do the trial is something that is very real. You didn't force them to do the month to month, but forced the more expensive option--people should be aware of that policy of yours and be allowed to show dissent, but that does not mean you don't have a good product. You should have at least tied it to the monthly and not yearly option, poor form...it's fact, you can't dispute that and people should know that is how you are conducting business, which now they do and I am happy for that. Do not take that as you aren't extending trials, allowing ppl to cancel, or accept special requests, bc as you said you are, but your policy is still to tie it to yearly even for people who have already bought.
Your viewpoint appears to have a camp total of one.
When I purchased the DOM and tape, it was for those reasons. This V4 update has actually made it
a different product all together, as it is now a trading platform.
The added fee's / licenses are justified.
I can now use my divinely updated tools in SIM mode without paying a penny more. However, I
WILL update to the full version shortly.
...please let this go. I will come to Pete's defense every time
AJ
Nashville, Tennessee
"Life On The Edge of SR"
The following user says Thank You to tderrick for this post:
To be clear, I do use my own indicators, including my own DOM on the chart. But I trialed Jigsaw's indicators several versions ago, and think it's a fine and innovative product. If that were what I wanted, I'd pay for his product rather than code my own (though I wouldn't go for a subscription). Many vendors just recycle other people's ideas in new packages.
I have no idea what "tied to the monthly rather than yearly option means". No-one is forced to sign up for subscription to take a trial.
No-one is tied to a yearly anything, you clearly haven't looked at the options.
At this point, it appears you have gone past making accusations about my intentions and are now making stuff up about how we sell the product.
$50/month or $500/year for live trading & nothing at all to do with the base package.
As for free trials - I already stated, it's to avoid lots of tirekickers. There's people on this very forum that have emailed me and asked for a free trial and got one without an upfront payment.
You see - I just want to hold the hands of people that are serious and I DO HOLD HANDS. So - if someone goes to the site and signs up for any package - with or without subscription, they get all their money back if it's not for them.
If someone contacts me directly and asks for a trial, I give them a free one with no obligation as they took the time to reach out to me. If someone asks me lots of questions about comparisons to their existing product or use in their market, again I send them a link for a totally free trial. A link I don't make public but use at my discretion.
You seem to have quite a beef and have jumped to many conclusions based on scant information.
Facts are facts but your opinions about my intentions are just that - opinions. You can always pose as a customer and contact me if you want to know what's really going on.
I appreciate your good intentions in raising certain issues, but you have to respect a vendor's decisions in conducting his business model. If a vendor can ensure that he delivers what he promises on his product(s), that's a huge step in the right direction, don't you think so?
While it's true that some vendors resort to certain methods to deceive people, I would suggest that you check out Pete's posts in futures.io (formerly BMT) (and other forums) to find out if he is such a vendor.
Personally, I feel that Pete has conducted himself well, both as a vendor and as a contributor, and that his reputation as a responsible vendor is important to him. The fact that he is still posting on futures.io (formerly BMT) is a really good indicator; many vendors get banned by Big Mike instead. Above all, I appreciate his insightful contributions and his effort to add depth to the discussion on order flow trading..
(Disclaimer: I have bought his software last year, so I'm his customer as well. But this post is not written in blind support of him, as I haven't used it yet. Not because I was fooled into buying it due to his "marketing tricks", but simply it's my own decision to purchase it as a form of investment for myself. I have no regrets over the purchase as future upgrades are free. Anyway, this kind of decision is beyond any vendor's purview.. Haha.. )
See attached for the steps to get the free 3 month trial, which includes the subscription--tied to yearly instead of monthly.
@fourtiwinks, just because he gives information to some that is valuable, which I would do the same if I was just selling a "tool" instead of a system, it is smart, that does not mean people aren't allowed to disagree with that vendor. This is a forum where people get to disagree and agree with vendors.
Its good when people come to your defense, but it is also good when people have all of the information, which includes information that everyone might not agree with and might not want to speak up about. They have had their voice now. Good luck, I never said it was a bad tool, because I think people find value in it, which makes it a good tool, just disagree with policies, which this forum was made for.
Yup, it's great that this forum allows a difference of opinions..
Btw I just check Pete's website and it clearly states that there are monthly and yearly options after the three months' trial. The fact that Pete offers three month's free trial is another good indication of the type of support he is willing to provide..
1 - buy the product with no live trading
2 - buy the product with live trading - monthly or annually
whatever you do - you can get a refund
2 trial options
1 - go thru the website and pay
2 - send me an email/skype message and don't pay
It's not rocket science. You can assume all you want about INTENT but this is simply your OPINION and no matter how often you repeat that my intentions are to rip people off, it still remains an opinion.
You want to twist the above into me intending to rip people off and that is way off mark. That is fact, not opinion.
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I can attest to these options. I sent Pete a PM and he hooked me up with a trial no questions asked. After 1 week of the trial, I purchased the tools. Pete has even given me and another coder with similar tools to his a free trial....AND both of us own the tools. When you give coders free trials AND they purchase your tools, you have a great set of tools.
I consider myself anti-vendor, because I believe you can get most tools available out there for free or code them yourself. However, I am willing to spend money on quality products. These are the only tools I have ever purchased because the quality was top notch and I was instantly hooked on D&S.
London Calling
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Ninja Machine ids are not very unique. They look unique but the 3rd party licensing option in Ninja help menu exists because the machine id's are not very unique. It effectively lets you append text to the id to make it more unique.
Out of the box Ninja licensing app only allows 1 trial per machine id.
So - if you allow a simple download link from your site, after a while, many of those that download it get "trial expired" messages because someone else with a duplicate machine id has done a trial. Ninja license servers think it's the same person.
In the end, you have to register every trial manually. At that point, you want to limit the trials to those that are serious.
So - apart from the fact that making them downloadable to anyone is as good as putting the files on piratebay, you end up with overhead per trial.
Admittedly - way after Jigsaw stopped free trials for obvious reasons (we are evil), we also stopped using Ninja machine ids.
i have a more general question. There are now a lot of orderbook and orderflow systems and tools for Ninja and other platforms available but as far as i know none comes with an automatic entry and exit signal.
All courses and tools have more or less clear rules, but the last step to full automation and backtesting is not done by all vendors. The user is left to its own capabilities.
Is there a reason for this ? Do the markets change their behaviour to fast in order to receive a constant performance?
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What is Dinosaurtoast any ways thinking it would probably get moldy after a while.
I have not yet tried his product but judging by the people that do it is of very high quality. What I can review however is the free videos he has on his site and the 3 part series he did for topsteptrader. I found these to be very informative and worthwhile.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
Posts: 49,790 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,314 given,
97,613
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Jack22 has been banned for 30-days. I warned him to move on out of this thread after he made his point but continued attacking over and over, he ignored me. So now I am making him move on for 30-days.
I am sure there must be some software with signals, I think Sceeto has signals but I could be wrong. My apologies to them if I am.
I think the reason you don't generally see signals is because the tools are for discretionary traders. Order flow is more about getting a read on where the commitment is.
Reading order flow can be one of 2 things:
1 - Icing on your cake.
So your cake is a method of identifying entry/exit points in the market and the icing is using order flow to reject/refine/confirm
2 - The cake
Which is pretty much trading the order book very short term, what a lot of prop shops have their traders focus on. This is using order flow and nothing else effectively.
It's probably the complete opposite to red light/green light systems and so does not lend itself to backtesting.
In terms of coding up a system based on order flow concepts, it is fairly easy enough to do (look up SOBI, Static Order Book Imbalances) so you can test the concepts in real time. The problem is that the backtesting engines in the major retail trading platforms do not currently give you the ability to backtest with level 2 data.
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Great innovative software. Gave the trial a shot, unfortunately didn't fit my trading style. Pete even answered my email as to how to remove from ninja. Cheaper than a blind date!
WHEN JT FIRST STARTED VENDING THE PRODUCT A FREE TRIAL WAS THE NORM, NOW YOU PAY FOR THE PRODUCT WITH A MONEY BACK GUARANTEE, MY POINT IS THE POLICY SPELLS OUT HOW GOOD THE PRODUCT ACTUALLY IS
I have a question regarding using the tools without trading live on the DOM. What if I just wanted to use the tools..such as the reconstructed tape..for visual confirmation, but did not execute my live trades through Jigsaw's DOM. Let's say I traded my live account, through Ninja..placing orders through the Chart trader, as I usually do...Would I still need a subscription..or could I just buy the indicators ?
Ok guys, here is my review of Jigsaw. For me it was the missing piece to profitable trading. PERIOD. It takes some time to learn and to train your eyes and mind but the effort is well worth it. Peter really did a fantastic job and if you combine it with the stuff from John Grady, in my opinion, you are far ahead of the average retail trader. It was the best money I have ever spent! Thanks
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Absolutely totally feel the exact same way!!!!
The education just from watching the Depth & Sales has crack my cosmic egg let alone all the material Peter has for his members.
Everyone talks about psychology in this business so much, people are afraid to trade, fear of loss etc etc. I feel what is really the problem is most don't even understand the game in the slightest bit. So of course they are all afraid and scary and their emotion drive them. THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST. They know not the beast they seek. They don't know how it moves etc. Jigsaw products can show you. But it is not instant. I have been using Jigsaw for 5 months now. Don't think its a over night thing and your done.
Ronald J Cutaia Jr
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hi Kairos
do not rush to hasty conclusions, the million bucks you have not already done?
since you are already on this forum, I would recommend you become an elite member, becoming a member of the elite you will find some products that are much more ease your understanding of order flows
all known in comparison
good luck
* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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Hey Jonson, thanks for your concern (I guess). And no I am not a millionaire but I made back all the money I lost when I was a beginner plus some (it was only a few k because I started with microlots in Forex and not like many suckers with futures and dollar signs in their eyes). Maybe my review is a bit unclear to some and you should read it thoroughly it says the missing PIECE... I am not a pure DOM Trader. I use the Jigsaw tools to refine my entries and even more important my exits. My main strategy is based on MP/VP and the VWAP. Peter's tools simply allow me to see what is happening right now and if I am on the right side or not and I don't want to trade without them. Some people are okay to take a trade just because price touches a moving average or a certain retracement or maybe because the Moon is having a threesome with Mars and Venus.
I can't trade that way and I certainly don't want to. I know what makes a market move and I want to see exactly that and now I can
Btw I am an Elite Member but to be honest I am not interested in any other tools. I think I got all I need and I want to be consistent with that. Always looking for a better system is (in my opinion) the quickest road to bankruptcy in trading.
Regards
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I noticed the course is about trading the ES..
Does anyone know if the indicators are set up to work as well on something like Cl ? Or is it mainly designed for the ES contract.
Having some experience in my memory is one of the qualitative products to retail traders
* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
At this point in time I consider D&S a must have. It's an incredible DOM.
I'm not sure it gives an edge by itself, but the information in there is invaluable at times. You can clearly see iceberg orders, and other things that are simply useful when timing the market.
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I'd assume it can be used on futures based on Forex like the E6, but since the Forex market doesn't have volume I don't know how it would be of any advantage.
R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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Sorry if this isn't the correct thread for my question which is to do more with T&S in general, and not a comment re jigsaw (I have never used and do not use it - but it sure looks like a useful tool). I am just posting this here because the contributors seem to know - or will appreciate T&S issues more than say a FX trader commenting who doesnt/cant even use T&S.
Anyway - here goes.....
Ive noticed using several different platforms (TT and CTS) that often the Volume at Price - or Market Profile as some scalpers like to call it does not correspond with T&S.
eg 1467.25 may have a volume of 15,678 contracts traded there so far. You see 200 trade on T&S, but when you look at the MP/V@P, it now reads 16,020 or something.
Odd?
Well the explanation is that the exchange tends to send out updates now and then. (Eurex, CME, LIFFE anyway). Also, spread trades are going off, as well as wholesale trades (cross, blocks, EFP's etc) that tend to get reported later.
So apart from the wholesale trades, how useful is T&S if it's not so accurate? At an estimate, maybe T&S reports say 80%. I just find it annoying when I see MP increase by say 2000, just to see T&S report a 50 lot or something when I want to see how many were bought or sold.
What Product do you use for T&S and Volume Profile? I am pretty sure that the Jigsaw tools add it up correctly, at least the Depth and Sales does and this is what I am using. I have the the T&S (Jigsaw) up but I don't really look at it, I do the math in my head which is not a big deal after watching the DOM for several months. Maybe Peter the great has an answer for you but I completely trust this product!
Edit: Sorry I just saw that you mentioned using TT and CTS (I had a couple of beers and I am watching the Us Open so please forgive me) I would be very surprised if the XTrader would not be accurate but I have never used it before because it was too expensive and after Jigsaw there was no turning back for me! So I can't really comment on that...
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Thanks Kairos - to be honest, I dont really think Jigsaw would help. I dont thinks it's a data feed issue or a platform issue (TT, CTS or Jigsaw). I do have an IQ Feed (who also white label as Kinetic for you NT users), and I'm pretty confident it's comparable with TT and CTS. Therefore I'm sure Jigsaw would also be comparable with TT over the internet...
My question is really around the premise of using any T&S, or the usefulness of T&S in general given T&S doesnt seem to report all trades.
Apparently, my investigations to date lead me to believe there are 2 ways to distribute data. One is via TCP/IP which apparently is slower and will not get all the prints, but it is more reliable in that the data will get to you. I cant remember the other protocol - perhaps it native exchange protocol which will vary. Either way, the alternative to TCP/IP is faster, will give you every print, but cant guarantee it will get to you over the internet.
I get the impression most feeds distributed over the internet such as IQ/Kinetic, TT etc will be TCP/IP
Maybe some of the more techie minded people here can comment on the merits of TCP/IP?
I'm getting the idea that traders who trade over the internet are probably better off with TCP/IP feeds, where as if you are sat in a prop firm or similar with a leased line/direct connection, you'll go for non TCP/IP and get everything.
This answers your question I think, even though you don't get all trades reported you can see when the tape gets faster and this is the reason why I like it.
Hope that helps
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I wil try here to do an analysis and comparation on different data feeds and platforms to perfom studies involving bid/ask data, like comulative bid/ask difference or delta bars and footprint like.
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....cmon Pete - i know you can do it.
Just trying to see if your feeling is coming from the tools or from the field (tape/DOM) in general.
thinking it would probably get moldy after a while.
