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Jigsaw Trading, Daytradr and Journalytix, www.jigsawtrading.com

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  #291 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.

Instead of complaining about it on the forum, go to Skype and contact Peter directly.
He will gladly talk to you about your concerns.
Peter is a great guy, always available to help.

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  #292 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.




Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD. Jigsaw is a joke.
I'll start by saying that Jigsaw itself is a good tool. What's bad is Journalytix. Specifically, the "leader board".

Some diverse opinions there - our entire company is a joke but actually, there's just one thing that seems to be at issue. The leaderboard isn't what you want it to be, right?


Trader1034 View Post
Here's the problem. You have a bunch of people trading on SIM or DEMO that don't take it seriously. They're always the top dogs on the leader board. These guys would never trade the same way with real money.

IF Peter Davies was serious, he would create two leader boards. One with only SIM trading and another with only LIVE trading. It's technically easy for him to do that. Then maybe people would take the leader board seriously.

I mean seriously. If I wanted to be top dog, sure I can martingale my way to number one. Get in a trade and keep adding until I have no choice but to make money on the trade.

A couple of points to bear in mind:
- The leaderboard is a trader development tool and most developing traders are on SIM/Combine
- The leaderboard on a weekly/monthly basis is rated on consistency and not P&L, using a proprietary algorithm developed based on how prop firms take traders live
- Stupid stuff like scaling into offside positions is marked down, so people doing that should not come out on top on a weekly/monthly basis
- Daily leaderboard is based on P&L but there is some downgrading for intraday drawdowns, we could certainly improve on that.


Trader1034 View Post
Look at today. Here's the"top 3" on the leader board: https://gyazo.com/00d2abcc1466cbba2724cc74bad6be21

Look at #1: https://gyazo.com/32c2966dfe35c7d461386d52768ffd90

It's a demo account. Does anyone seriously think he made $600,000 in June and $400,000 in August? Of course not. It's easy when it's Monopoly money.

How about #2: https://gyazo.com/ce1b01e3438bf0d62be453d2f17b2ae6

Again, demo. If it was real money, he wouldn't have a $400,000 draw down in the month.



My point is people look at this as a joke. Peter has the technical ability to have two leader boards. One for only live trading and one for this fake trading. Obviously, people would take the live trading leader board seriously. When I click on the individual names, over 90% of these guys are trading demo. There's a reason no one takes it seriously.

I understand the leaderboard is not what you think it should be but that doesn't make it a joke. You can't rank on consistency on a single day, which is why the daily leaderboard is P&L based and open to people doing daft stuff for entertainment.

The larger traders on Journalytix are not opted into the leaderboard. It's about peers in the development stage seeing what others can do over time if they trade consistently.



Trader1034 View Post
If Jigsaw wants a serious and "professional" platform, they need to take this seriously. At this point, people look at Jigsaw as a joke. I mean seriously. The guys in #1 and #2 are making $500k or losing that amount on demo. Really?


I don't know why Peter won't make the adjustment. He can even have a feature to filter out only live trading and you see who really does well. Then people will really look at Jigsaw as a serious platform.

The prop firms using Journalytix have their own leaderboards. You can't see them on the public leaderboards. They are also able to segregate their leadeboard by groups of traders.


Trader1034 View Post
Supposedly, they're a "competitor to Trading Technologies X_Trader. There's no competition. X_Trader blows them away. Maybe if they took every aspect of their business seriously and catered to serious traders, people would view this different.

This isn't my view only. I talk to a lot of traders and hear the same thing across the board.

It's a simple fix. Fix that and people will respect Jigsaw. Making a guy #1 because he can trade 1,000 ES contracts on DEMO is a joke. Seriously. We want to see real live trades. We want to see how real traders with real money are doing. No one cares about some guy trading Monopoly money. We all have that ability to trade that way. We want to see who actually does well with REAL money. Peter I hope you read this and actually implement a change.

I don't see how the daily public leaderboard working a certain way has the whole trading community saying our DOM is no good.

Weekly/Monthly leaderboards are not open to gaming in the way you describe.But I do respect your opinion, if not the OTT way you present it. We may do a live/demo leaderboard in the future but I think the net benefit to aspiring traders of progressing up the rankings on the weekly/monthly is doing what we wanted it to do.

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  #293 (permalink)
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Jigsaw Trading View Post
Some diverse opinions there - our entire company is a joke but actually, there's just one thing that seems to be at issue. The leaderboard isn't what you want it to be, right?



A couple of points to bear in mind:
- The leaderboard is a trader development tool and most developing traders are on SIM/Combine
- The leaderboard on a weekly/monthly basis is rated on consistency and not P&L, using a proprietary algorithm developed based on how prop firms take traders live
- Stupid stuff like scaling into offside positions is marked down, so people doing that should not come out on top on a weekly/monthly basis
- Daily leaderboard is based on P&L but there is some downgrading for intraday drawdowns, we could certainly improve on that.



I understand the leaderboard is not what you think it should be but that doesn't make it a joke. You can't rank on consistency on a single day, which is why the daily leaderboard is P&L based and open to people doing daft stuff for entertainment.

The larger traders on Journalytix are not opted into the leaderboard. It's about peers in the development stage seeing what others can do over time if they trade consistently.




The prop firms using Journalytix have their own leaderboards. You can't see them on the public leaderboards. They are also able to segregate their leadeboard by groups of traders.



I don't see how the daily public leaderboard working a certain way has the whole trading community saying our DOM is no good.

Weekly/Monthly leaderboards are not open to gaming in the way you describe.But I do respect your opinion, if not the OTT way you present it. We may do a live/demo leaderboard in the future but I think the net benefit to aspiring traders of progressing up the rankings on the weekly/monthly is doing what we wanted it to do.


I talk to a lot of traders. Not just on forums but actually talk. I've heard the same complaint across the board. You can use fancy words like proprietary indicator. The request isn't that you change your method of ranking traders. It's simply to add a feature that people can filter out only live trades. Several people have made this request. You keep dodging the request for some reason. It's an easy fix. Put in a button that allows a filter for live trades only. If a traders has both live and sim trades, count only the live trades. You're able to technically add this and a lot of people want it. So why not add it? I get it that you want people to look at the leaderboad and see others making a boat load of money. They feel they NEED Jigsaw to be successful. It's a simple fix and people want it. If you cared about your customer base and what people want, you would add that. Those that don't look or care about the leaderboard don't have to look at it. I want to compare my live trades to others trading live. I don't want to compare my live trades to a guy trading Monopoly money. It's a reasonable request. It wouldn't take your programmers long to add that feature in. It's not that they the leaderboard is open to gaming or not. Trading live is very different. There's psychology and emotions that simply aren't there on sim. If traders want to compare trades against others, why not let them?

And no this isn't just about the leaderboard. I have no confidence trading Jigsaw when the markets move fast. I've had to restart Jigsaw on numerous occasions. This isn't a bridge to NinjaTrader connection. Direct data feed. I've never had to do that with X_Trader. There is absolutely stability issues with Jigsaw. When markets start moving, I switch and trade only on TT. I don't have confidence based on past experience that Jigsaw can hold up to fast markets. If you can fix that stability issue, that would be great.

The stability issue isn't related to my computer. I have an i9 chip with 18 cores. 128gb DDR4 Ram. A 1T Samsung Evo Pro SSD that has the fasted read/write speed on the market. The Internet is 1G both up and down and is dedicated to this computer only. There's another Internet for everything else in the house. And it's all liquid cooled. There are two liquid cooling systems. One solely dedicated to just the i9 chip. The video cards are liquid cooled. The point is it's not on my end. This computer will handle just about anything. With those components, I shouldn't have to kill and restart Jigsaw. But I have had to on numerous occasions on fast markets. If I had an off the shelf computer, I'd say OK maybe my fault. If I had 25 DOMs open, I'd say maybe. If I had a bridge connection, again I'd possibly attribute it to Ninja. I have none of those. I have 1 DOM open. I've tried with a CQG feed and Rithmic feed. It's happened on both feeds. Should the program ever stall with that kind of processing speed? This PC was built this summer and is solely used for trading. No storage of videos or anything like that.

If you can fix the stability issues, great. But we don't get enough extreme markets to be an issue. The request here is to simply add a filter to only look at live trades on the leaderboard. Those that don't care simply won't look at it. Those that do will find it tremendously helpful.

Hopefully it's something you consider.

Thank you

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  #294 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
This request has been made to Peter already. Anyway, I've seen Jigsaw stall on very fast markets. This isn't the bridge to NinjaTrader version. This was a CQG direct connection. It stalled and I had to restart. X_Trader has never blinked an eye in the fastest of markets. I don't use charts so I don't use any TT charts and wouldn't be the best to comment on them. I'm simply looking at the DOM and stability.

Obviously TT doesn't display all the stuff Jigsaw does but Jigsaw has a number of internal features to prevent slowdowns.

When you run Jigsaw with cqg, you have both different data provider, different feed architecture (webockets) and different platform.

We are neutral on assigning cause on a slowdown and in every case, we get the logs so we can see what's going on and discuss the data side with cqg based on session codes from the log.

Customers tend to conclude the platform is at fault but we prefer to investigate.

When any app appears slow, there's 2 things that really help us investigate.

1 - try moving a window. If the window doesn't move, the app is UI bound.
2 - check cpu% - if it's high, there's a CPU issue.

That helps us investigate any issue. It's case by case and we are happy to help.

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  #295 (permalink)
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matthew28 View Post
He constantly closes duplicate threads, it is an advantage of the site that information about companies or products is easy to find due to it all being in only one or two threads.
I am sure Futures.io does collect revenue from advertisers, and I have seen Jigsaw adverts on the site, but then find me a commercial website that does not have adverts. (But as is stated on the Elite Members page he doesn't take money for Elite Member referrals on the product discounts).
I presume that advertising revenue also helps allow Mike to continue having access to the site for non members who haven't paid anything, such as yourself as you appear to not be a Elite Member, rather than making it completely Member only.

Mike is unique in the industry that he won't close threads containing reasonable complaints about an advertiser.

Instead, he encourages us to respond.

Mike is famous for shutting down posts that are overly negative.

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  #296 (permalink)
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Jigsaw Trading View Post
Obviously TT doesn't display all the stuff Jigsaw does but Jigsaw has a number of internal features to prevent slowdowns.

When you run Jigsaw with cqg, you have both different data provider, different feed architecture (webockets) and different platform.

We are neutral on assigning cause on a slowdown and in every case, we get the logs so we can see what's going on and discuss the data side with cqg based on session codes from the log.

Customers tend to conclude the platform is at fault but we prefer to investigate.

When any app appears slow, there's 2 things that really help us investigate.

1 - try moving a window. If the window doesn't move, the app is UI bound.
2 - check cpu% - if it's high, there's a CPU issue.

That helps us investigate any issue. It's case by case and we are happy to help.


Thanks for commenting on the platform slowdown issues. Are you able to comment on why you won't add a feature to filter live trades only on the leaderboard when there's been so many requests? Even during webinars, this question comes up repeatedly. If it's that requested, why not just add it?

FYI when I would have to close down Jigsaw, CPU usage was 10% or so in task manager. Other applications continued to work. Again, I've seen it with CQG and Rithmic but only in fast markets. It's not that much of a concern as we don't get fast markets nearly enough for it to become an issue.

I'd love to hear why you don't add in the requested feature. I hear from traders I talk to that they would like to see this feature. I hear in webinars people I don't know ask the same question. I guess my point of view is if people want it and request it and it won't adversely harm your business, why not? Those that don't care to use it simply won't. It will be a feature for those of us that do prefer to use it.

Thank you

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Trader1034 View Post
I talk to a lot of traders. Not just on forums but actually talk. I've heard the same complaint across the board. You can use fancy words like proprietary indicator. The request isn't that you change your method of ranking traders. It's simply to add a feature that people can filter out only live trades. Several people have made this request. You keep dodging the request for some reason. It's an easy fix. Put in a button that allows a filter for live trades only. If a traders has both live and sim trades, count only the live trades. You're able to technically add this and a lot of people want it. So why not add it? I get it that you want people to look at the leaderboad and see others making a boat load of money. They feel they NEED Jigsaw to be successful. It's a simple fix and people want it. If you cared about your customer base and what people want, you would add that. Those that don't look or care about the leaderboard don't have to look at it. I want to compare my live trades to others trading live. I don't want to compare my live trades to a guy trading Monopoly money. It's a reasonable request. It wouldn't take your programmers long to add that feature in. It's not that they the leaderboard is open to gaming or not. Trading live is very different. There's psychology and emotions that simply aren't there on sim. If traders want to compare trades against others, why not let them?

And no this isn't just about the leaderboard. I have no confidence trading Jigsaw when the markets move fast. I've had to restart Jigsaw on numerous occasions. This isn't a bridge to NinjaTrader connection. Direct data feed. I've never had to do that with X_Trader. There is absolutely stability issues with Jigsaw. When markets start moving, I switch and trade only on TT. I don't have confidence based on past experience that Jigsaw can hold up to fast markets. If you can fix that stability issue, that would be great.

The stability issue isn't related to my computer. I have an i9 chip with 18 cores. 128gb DDR4 Ram. A 1T Samsung Evo Pro SSD that has the fasted read/write speed on the market. The Internet is 1G both up and down and is dedicated to this computer only. There's another Internet for everything else in the house. And it's all liquid cooled. There are two liquid cooling systems. One solely dedicated to just the i9 chip. The video cards are liquid cooled. The point is it's not on my end. This computer will handle just about anything. With those components, I shouldn't have to kill and restart Jigsaw. But I have had to on numerous occasions on fast markets. If I had an off the shelf computer, I'd say OK maybe my fault. If I had 25 DOMs open, I'd say maybe. If I had a bridge connection, again I'd possibly attribute it to Ninja. I have none of those. I have 1 DOM open. I've tried with a CQG feed and Rithmic feed. It's happened on both feeds. Should the program ever stall with that kind of processing speed? This PC was built this summer and is solely used for trading. No storage of videos or anything like that.

If you can fix the stability issues, great. But we don't get enough extreme markets to be an issue. The request here is to simply add a filter to only look at live trades on the leaderboard. Those that don't care simply won't look at it. Those that do will find it tremendously helpful.

Hopefully it's something you consider.

Thank you

On our list right now from a stability/performance perspective is:

- new Tradovate connection stopped (beta new api issue, customers sent new version, waiting for feedback)
- FLAT Button didn't flatten - but the logs got deleted, so we can't investigate with the data provider
- Occasional late reporting of order confirmations - under investigation (we show orders only when confirmed by exchange, so it appears 'late' but gives you more piece of mind - that can often appear as a log if there are comms/exchange issues)

Anything outside of those 3 customer issues is either resolved or unreported.

We did have a few issues integrating to SQL Server compact CE, but they are resolved and anyone not on R19, should upgrade. That database is not being fixed any more and will soon be EOL, so we'll move to something better with multi-threading. We resolved the issues with a set of per-table queues that run on their own threads.

If you feel we've missed something - then please get in touch with details and we'll get onto it.

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Jigsaw Trading View Post
On our list right now from a stability/performance perspective is:

- new Tradovate connection stopped (beta new api issue, customers sent new version, waiting for feedback)
- FLAT Button didn't flatten - but the logs got deleted, so we can't investigate with the data provider
- Occasional late reporting of order confirmations - under investigation (we show orders only when confirmed by exchange, so it appears 'late' but gives you more piece of mind - that can often appear as a log if there are comms/exchange issues)

Anything outside of those 3 customer issues is either resolved or unreported.

We did have a few issues integrating to SQL Server compact CE, but they are resolved and anyone not on R19, should upgrade. That database is not being fixed any more and will soon be EOL, so we'll move to something better with multi-threading. We resolved the issues with a set of per-table queues that run on their own threads.

If you feel we've missed something - then please get in touch with details and we'll get onto it.



Again, the slowdown issues aren't the main concern and reason for the post. Please see the post directly above what you just wrote.

Thanks again

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  #299 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
Thanks for commenting on the platform slowdown issues. Are you able to comment on why you won't add a feature to filter live trades only on the leaderboard when there's been so many requests? Even during webinars, this question comes up repeatedly. If it's that requested, why not just add it?

FYI when I would have to close down Jigsaw, CPU usage was 10% or so in task manager. Other applications continued to work. Again, I've seen it with CQG and Rithmic but only in fast markets. It's not that much of a concern as we don't get fast markets nearly enough for it to become an issue.

I'd love to hear why you don't add in the requested feature. I hear from traders I talk to that they would like to see this feature. I hear in webinars people I don't know ask the same question. I guess my point of view is if people want it and request it and it won't adversely harm your business, why not? Those that don't care to use it simply won't. It will be a feature for those of us that do prefer to use it.

Thank you

Right now priority for Journalytix is importing data from multiple sources. We just added correlation charts to Journalytix - it's there but no announced. So it's not ignorance - it's a queue. Roughly the queue is
1 - Profit seeker issues with the new correlation page
2 - Ability to import trades (with an open API)
3 - Ability to set accounts to ignore

After that we'll prioritize remaining items.

For Jigsaw - it's all hands on deck for charting but the request to change Tradovate API threw us for a loop. We are trying to train a new dev to develop more APIs too - but it's a bit of a painful process. You should see more APIs like IB, TDA shortly

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Complexity on live-only leaderboard is that some trader do both - so there's db changes needed to store/calculate 3 rankings per user
- live rank
- demo rank
- live + demo rank

We have some new stuff planned on ranking and would prefer not to change the old way - but someone is potentially paying for that new way, so it's up in the air right now. I expect to be flying out to see these people next month to nail them down on it.

That's as much as I can say without potentially screwing up a major deal

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