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Jigsaw Trading, Daytradr and Journalytix, www.jigsawtrading.com

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  #201 (permalink)
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rintin2x View Post
I like it, just a bit of critique: maybe put a short quick fast forward video clip to see what's going on at the open, because it's just easier to see it then using slides when Peter trying to explain things. Other than that, thank you for this webinar.

Good idea - I'll post a compilation for reference - after all, I'll be there anyway ;-)

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  #202 (permalink)
 xplorer 
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@DionysusToast

Pete,

I'd like to provide some feedback on RTP and the trade log but it does not seem I have access to the support forum.


I was given an access code but if I try and log on I get "The specified username is currently inactive".

I think Dave tried to unlock it but so far no luck.


If you could have a look when you have 5 mins I'd appreciate it.



EDIT: Thanks for sorting that out!

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  #203 (permalink)
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xplorer View Post
@DionysusToast

Pete,

I'd like to provide some feedback on RTP and the trade log but it does not seem I have access to the support forum.


I was given an access code but if I try and log on I get "The specified username is currently inactive".

I think Dave tried to unlock it but so far no luck.


If you could have a look when you have 5 mins I'd appreciate it.



EDIT: Thanks for sorting that out!

You should be OK now!

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  #204 (permalink)
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rintin2x View Post
I like it, just a bit of critique: maybe put a short quick fast forward video clip to see what's going on at the open, because it's just easier to see it then using slides when Peter trying to explain things. Other than that, thank you for this webinar.


Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?



Too fast, too slow? Let me know so I can do a compilation more effectively. You might want to download it so you can more easily go frame by frame...

I'll do the compilation without trades though - as I said, I do think this is something you should study and trade your way - not the way someone else trades it.

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  #205 (permalink)
 rintin2x 
salt lake utah
 
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That's awesome Pete, thank you for that...I just thought it was a pretty advance topic and a bit difficult to understand what you're saying in the webinar (for me at least). I recently studying order flow and I believe watching this and re-watching the webinar will help me understand this topic more...thanks again!

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  #206 (permalink)
mpxtreme
New York
 
 
Posts: 52 since Dec 2013
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Hi Pete,

Ok let's try this here since I have not received a reply from any of the numerous direct emails sent to different JST email addresses!

I specifically got JST for RTP access as I do not wish to run NT for real trading.

My interest is specifically hoping that RTP will allow user coded through some type of API or several default templates of smart order execution strategies making bid vs ask comparisons both traded(Delta) and standing limit orders.Basic execution strategies looking at lean price(s),pulled orders,upticks vs downticks etc,volume stops,if touched volume thresholds etc.

That said seeing how an API or power user smart orders may be a ways off I wish to code some of these strategies in NT8 for testing purposes.

Would it be possible to have a few details on how the delta calculation is done with regards to the snapshot meter?
a) what controls the frequency of the calculation updates?
b) if I chose 5 levels of snapshot...what delta calculation is included..last 5 levels buy volume - sell volume?Or something else?
c) If I chose 1 level of snapshot..is it all traded volume done at the inside best bid/offer or is the current trades reset calculation used instead?

Essentially I really would like to know what it is exactly that I am looking at.

Hoping to get an answer and to also encourage more advanced traders to make smart order execution suggestions as default RTP strategies.


Thanks
mpxtreme

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  #207 (permalink)
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mpxtreme View Post
Hi Pete,

Ok let's try this here since I have not received a reply from any of the numerous direct emails sent to different JST email addresses!

I specifically got JST for RTP access as I do not wish to run NT for real trading.

My interest is specifically hoping that RTP will allow user coded through some type of API or several default templates of smart order execution strategies making bid vs ask comparisons both traded(Delta) and standing limit orders.Basic execution strategies looking at lean price(s),pulled orders,upticks vs downticks etc,volume stops,if touched volume thresholds etc.

That said seeing how an API or power user smart orders may be a ways off I wish to code some of these strategies in NT8 for testing purposes.

Would it be possible to have a few details on how the delta calculation is done with regards to the snapshot meter?
a) what controls the frequency of the calculation updates?
b) if I chose 5 levels of snapshot...what delta calculation is included..last 5 levels buy volume - sell volume?Or something else?
c) If I chose 1 level of snapshot..is it all traded volume done at the inside best bid/offer or is the current trades reset calculation used instead?

Essentially I really would like to know what it is exactly that I am looking at.

Hoping to get an answer and to also encourage more advanced traders to make smart order execution suggestions as default RTP strategies.


Thanks
mpxtreme

Well - all I can say is - welcome to my spam folder. I haven't seen your emails, so I'll answer here.

My sincere apologies for not replying but hand on hear here - I don't think I missed stuff that hit my inbox.

I can't say much about functionality we plan to provide on here - 'cause someone else might do it first.

For snapshot meter.
a) What controls the frequency of updates is the 'update interval' which by default is 200ms but many discretionary traders knock that down to 50ms. We set the default to work on a crappy PC.
b) if you set 5 levels, it simply means the inside 5 levels
c) yes

Best thing to do (as I'm not getting your emails) is skype me on "JigsawTrading" where my lips are a lot looser.

Cheers

Pete

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  #208 (permalink)
mpxtreme
New York
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Well - all I can say is - welcome to my spam folder. I haven't seen your emails, so I'll answer here.

My sincere apologies for not replying but hand on hear here - I don't think I missed stuff that hit my inbox.

I can't say much about functionality we plan to provide on here - 'cause someone else might do it first.

For snapshot meter.
a) What controls the frequency of updates is the 'update interval' which by default is 200ms but many discretionary traders knock that down to 50ms. We set the default to work on a crappy PC.
b) if you set 5 levels, it simply means the inside 5 levels
c) yes

Best thing to do (as I'm not getting your emails) is skype me on "JigsawTrading" where my lips are a lot looser.

Cheers

Pete

Ahh finally an answer!

For the inside bid, there are two ways you can have the snapshot appear:
Delta – show the net changes to the limit orders, taking into account what has actually traded.
Original – Simply show the qty of limit orders when this price became the inside bid or offer.


So the Delta version would be for example using 5 levels...
a) 500 added offers red side
b) 1000 added bids blue side
c) 300 traded into the bids of the total 5 bid levels
d) 600 traded into the offers of the total 5 offer levels

The meter would be calculated how?

If you prefer I Skype you...just let me know!

Thanks
mpxtreme

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  #209 (permalink)
mpxtreme
New York
 
 
Posts: 52 since Dec 2013
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mpxtreme View Post
Ahh finally an answer!

For the inside bid, there are two ways you can have the snapshot appear:
Delta – show the net changes to the limit orders, taking into account what has actually traded.
Original – Simply show the qty of limit orders when this price became the inside bid or offer.


So the Delta version would be for example using 5 levels...
a) 500 added offers red side
b) 1000 added bids blue side
c) 300 traded into the bids of the total 5 bid levels
d) 600 traded into the offers of the total 5 offer levels

The meter would be calculated how?

If you prefer I Skype you...just let me know!

Thanks
mpxtreme

Must be that dang spam filter again huh?

If it's a proprietary calculation and I you cannot facilitate the ease of my coding struggle...just say so!lol

Tools are still great...

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  #210 (permalink)
 Lukebaires 
Buenos Aires
 
Experience: Beginner
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Hi guys,

I have downloaded the RapidTrader, I understand RTP is a stand alone platform so I don't need my NT platform to run jigsaw anymore. I have a NT brokerage but since I won't use their platform and all I have to do is connect my data feed to RTP, does this mean all my broker account information (as in funds) is within the data feed I use, in this case CQG continuum? And all the trades I do will be directed to my brokerage account through my data feed provider?

Also having a NT lifetime license, will I get the commission fee discount that comes with that license when not using NT platform, since I will be using RTP?

Hope it is okay to ask this here. I am new to the trading world and getting started, maybe you guys can help me out with my newbie doubts

"It is the business of the very few to be independent; it is a privilege of the strong."
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  #211 (permalink)
 skfutures 
North vancouver
 
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Quick question. I know this has been answered before but I would like to double confirm. So RTP does not have replay option nor any sort of chart option, correct? In order for one to replay must use plug in jigsaw instead of RTP? In replay, can you execute in jigsaw dom directly?

I have asked the Pete about it but didn't get any reply for awhile. Must be busy.

Anyone with experience with jigsaw/RTP, could you answer these questions?

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #212 (permalink)
 Alexander Savin 
Europe
 
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skfutures View Post
Quick question.

RTP does not have replay option nor any sort of chart option, correct? Correct and correct.
In order for one to replay must use plug in jigsaw instead of RTP? In replay, can you execute in jigsaw dom directly? I only know about the NT-plugin which allows for execution in replay mode.

Hope that helps.

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  #213 (permalink)
 xplorer 
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skfutures View Post
Quick question. I know this has been answered before but I would like to double confirm. So RTP does not have replay option nor any sort of chart option, correct? In order for one to replay must use plug in jigsaw instead of RTP? In replay, can you execute in jigsaw dom directly?

I have asked the Pete about it but didn't get any reply for awhile. Must be busy.

Anyone with experience with jigsaw/RTP, could you answer these questions?

Just to add to what Alexander already said, RTP at the moment is an execution-only platform. You can use a platform such as NinjaTrader and the Jigsaw plugin to trade off market replay data, but the fills you get will not necessarily be realistic, so depending on your trading style this may have an influence on the outcome of your trades.

But yes, in Market Replay you can execute directly on Jigsaw DOM, with the caveat I just mentioned.

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  #214 (permalink)
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Alexander Savin View Post
RTP does not have replay option nor any sort of chart option, correct? Correct and correct.
In order for one to replay must use plug in jigsaw instead of RTP? In replay, can you execute in jigsaw dom directly? I only know about the NT-plugin which allows for execution in replay mode.

Hope that helps.

Tradovate and Ninja both support Replay - Jigsaw works with both.

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  #215 (permalink)
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mpxtreme View Post
Ahh finally an answer!

For the inside bid, there are two ways you can have the snapshot appear:
Delta show the net changes to the limit orders, taking into account what has actually traded.
Original Simply show the qty of limit orders when this price became the inside bid or offer.


So the Delta version would be for example using 5 levels...
a) 500 added offers red side
b) 1000 added bids blue side
c) 300 traded into the bids of the total 5 bid levels
d) 600 traded into the offers of the total 5 offer levels

The meter would be calculated how?

If you prefer I Skype you...just let me know!

Thanks
mpxtreme


Blue Pill = adds to bids + pulls from offers
Red Pill = adds to offers + pulls from bids

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  #216 (permalink)
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Lukebaires View Post
Hi guys,

I have downloaded the RapidTrader, I understand RTP is a stand alone platform so I don't need my NT platform to run jigsaw anymore. I have a NT brokerage but since I won't use their platform and all I have to do is connect my data feed to RTP, does this mean all my broker account information (as in funds) is within the data feed I use, in this case CQG continuum? And all the trades I do will be directed to my brokerage account through my data feed provider?

Also having a NT lifetime license, will I get the commission fee discount that comes with that license when not using NT platform, since I will be using RTP?

Hope it is okay to ask this here. I am new to the trading world and getting started, maybe you guys can help me out with my newbie doubts

Account info is within the feed and visible from the account window.

Trades go via Continuum/Rithmic too.

If you have an NT license, you aren't getting hit on a per trade basis for the platform. Still asking for a discount never hurts.

Note that we have been working to reduce the "additional logon fee" for CQG and as of yesterday can confirm that AMP have managed to wangle it so you can log on to RapidTrader and (at least) one other platform (e.g. Sierra) without needing a 2nd CQG logon.

Not sure how they did it but hopefully others will follow.

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  #217 (permalink)
mpxtreme
New York
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Blue Pill = adds to bids + pulls from offers
Red Pill = adds to offers + pulls from bids

Are "swallowed(traded) "bid" and "offer" pills subtracted from the pulled pill quantity or are you calculating pulled and swallowed(traded) pills to be the same resulting qty of pills left anyways?

Thanks
mpxtreme

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  #218 (permalink)
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mpxtreme View Post
Are "swallowed(traded) "bid" and "offer" pills subtracted from the pulled pill quantity or are you calculating pulled and swallowed(traded) pills to be the same resulting qty of pills left anyways?

Thanks
mpxtreme

lol!!!

No - swallowed pills are not included in the calculation - only actual pulls & adds...

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  #219 (permalink)
mpxtreme
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DionysusToast View Post
lol!!!

No - swallowed pills are not included in the calculation - only actual pulls & adds...

ok! So swallowed blue and red pills are going into the blue and red buckets respectively when "Delta" is selected correct!?

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  #220 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
Wiltshire, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr
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@DionysusToast
Following on from the CQG logon question, I see that the RTP options window now includes a check box for 'Use RAPI+ for Rithmic'. Does this mean that the beta 1.0.1.6 version is now using the non + version, so a Rithmic account can connect and trade through RTP without incurring the extra fee that you said they were bringing in?

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  #221 (permalink)
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matthew28 View Post
@DionysusToast
Following on from the CQG logon question, I see that the RTP options window now includes a check box for 'Use RAPI+ for Rithmic'. Does this mean that the beta 1.0.1.6 version is now using the non + version, so a Rithmic account can connect and trade through RTP without incurring the extra fee that you said they were bringing in?

There's nothing behind that check box yet - give us a few weeks...

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  #222 (permalink)
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mpxtreme View Post
ok! So swallowed blue and red pills are going into the blue and red buckets respectively when "Delta" is selected correct!?

Delta does not effect the snapshot meter calculation

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  #223 (permalink)
 skfutures 
North vancouver
 
Experience: Beginner
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Posts: 131 since Oct 2016
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Is there monthly fee to trade using RTP on dom? I swear I read something about 50 dollar monthly fee or something somewhere, but can't find it anymore. Would someone clarify it for me? Thank you.

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  #224 (permalink)
 One Eyed Shark 
Manchester UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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From memory it is the same as the standard live DOM which is $50 per month.

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  #225 (permalink)
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skfutures View Post
Is there monthly fee to trade using RTP on dom? I swear I read something about 50 dollar monthly fee or something somewhere, but can't find it anymore. Would someone clarify it for me? Thank you.

SIM/DEMO Trading is free
TopstepTrader combine trading is free
Trading a live account ain't free

The benefits of the live trade license are convenience and also the trade management enhancements that help you manage trades after entry.

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  #226 (permalink)
 Alexander Savin 
Europe
 
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Posts: 53 since Apr 2016
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@DionysusToast
Any plans to add Interactive Brokers to RTP?

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  #227 (permalink)
 RebusFA 
Oxford + MI/USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: RTP, NinjaTrader 8, ToS
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage/Dorman, CQG, Kinetick, ToS
Trading: CL, ZB, ES...in that order. Swing trading stocks and ETFs
 
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skfutures View Post
Is there monthly fee to trade using RTP on dom? I swear I read something about 50 dollar monthly fee or something somewhere, but can't find it anymore. Would someone clarify it for me? Thank you.


As stated above it is $50/month or $500/year for live trading off any of Jigsaw tools. One Jigsaw license covers live trading on the add-on tools DOM and on RTP.

To trade off RTP I also had to purchase a second data feed with trading privileges enabled. This is costing me an additional $40/month.

Happy trading!
-Mike

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  #228 (permalink)
 RebusFA 
Oxford + MI/USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: RTP, NinjaTrader 8, ToS
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage/Dorman, CQG, Kinetick, ToS
Trading: CL, ZB, ES...in that order. Swing trading stocks and ETFs
 
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I recently started using Jigsaw's Rapid Trader Pro stand-alone platform. I am even happier with RTP than with the add-on tools in NinjaTrader that i used for 7 months. RTP's Orders and Positions window is far superior to NinjaTrader's interface and reporting tool.

Also, after a recent positive interaction with Jigsaw Trading I felt compelled to post that their customer service is second to none. It is clear they have a passion to make Jigsaw Tools the premiere DOM and order-flow-trading product in the market.

I recently had an issue with the current session's volume profile data not loading in RTP on start up. Pete Davies himself screen shared with me to identify the problem quickly. And it was not a problem on Jigsaw's software; it turned out my new CQG data feed had not had historic data enabled. (I contacted NT brokerage service to request historic data be enabled and they quickly fixed the issue)


Great job Jigsaw! You have earned me as a loyal customer for life.
-Mike

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  #229 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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RebusFA View Post
I recently started using Jigsaw's Rapid Trader Pro stand-alone platform. I am even happier with RTP than with the add-on tools in NinjaTrader that i used for 7 months. RTP's Orders and Positions window is far superior to NinjaTrader's interface and reporting tool.

Also, after a recent positive interaction with Jigsaw Trading I felt compelled to post that their customer service is second to none. It is clear they have a passion to make Jigsaw Tools the premiere DOM and order-flow-trading product in the market.

I recently had an issue with the current session's volume profile data not loading in RTP on start up. Pete Davies himself screen shared with me to identify the problem quickly. And it was not a problem on Jigsaw's software; it turned out my new CQG data feed had not had historic data enabled. (I contacted NT brokerage service to request historic data be enabled and they quickly fixed the issue)


Great job Jigsaw! You have earned me as a loyal customer for life.
-Mike

Thanks Mike - that's always nice to hear!

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 Alexander Savin 
Europe
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Thanks Mike - that's always nice to hear!

Shamelessly quoting to repost my question:
Any plans to add Interactive Brokers to RTP?
(duck down to hide from the wrath of the forum gods).

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 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Alexander Savin View Post
Shamelessly quoting to repost my question:
Any plans to add Interactive Brokers to RTP?
(duck down to hide from the wrath of the forum gods).

You want a 'yes' or you want a date????

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  #232 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Portland, Oregon
 
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DionysusToast View Post
You want a 'yes' or you want a date????

Maybe he wants both.

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tturner86 View Post
Maybe he wants both.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app


lol...

OK - it's on the plan

But I have over 1,000 man-days work on the plan.

And I need some time to plan it all out - because there's investors involved etc.

So - I can be more precise in about 3 months time.

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 Alexander Savin 
Europe
 
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DionysusToast View Post
lol...



OK - it's on the plan



But I have over 1,000 man-days work on the plan.



And I need some time to plan it all out - because there's investors involved etc.



So - I can be more precise in about 3 months time.



That's all i needed (and wanted) to know, thanks.


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  #235 (permalink)
 Nedster 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Any plans to add futures spread trading functionality?

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  #236 (permalink)
 arnie 
Europe
 
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DionysusToast View Post
You want a 'yes' or you want a date????

How useful would be Jigsaw connected to Interactive Brokers when their feed is not tick based?
All volume is retrieved in packages. We would be basically seen a delayed volume.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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 Alexander Savin 
Europe
 
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arnie View Post
How useful would be Jigsaw connected to Interactive Brokers when their feed is not tick based?
All volume is retrieved in packages. We would be basically seen a delayed volume.



You can get data from one feed (e.g. Iqfeed, cqg, rithmic) and execute through another (e.g. IB).


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  #238 (permalink)
 jrjoe 
Portland, Oregon
 
Experience: Advanced
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One does NOT have to use the I B feed (which is fee based anyway)...there are a variety of data vendors that work with the

API. At very close to the IB data feed price. You do have a choice...you can pay I B for no historical tick data. or you can pay

for RT, historical tick data to feed the IB API.

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  #239 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Just a quick note that Pete has updated the Elite deal, for Elite Members, to a flat $40 discount for Jigsaw products.

You can find all the Elite discounts here:
https://futures.io/elite_membership/

Mike

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 adam777 
Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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Trading: futures
 
Posts: 56 since May 2011
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Hi Peter or anyone that may know,

I have 2 quick questions:

1. Is the CQG Data that Jigsaw uses for the AMP Futures customers "Direct Market Access"?
2. Does it also use server side orders on the CQG servers?

These questions refer to Jigsaw Multicharts add-on and also the Standalone product. I also own a Jigsaw licence.


Thanks

Adam

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  #241 (permalink)
 uspilotzzz 
Denver, CO United States
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
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ES day trader trader here looking at increasing his knowledge and learning order flow to help with understanding the market and starting on the right side with my trades.

I was interested in thedaytradindacadamy but after some research figured that wasn't for me. I'm wondering if there are any current jigsaw members out there willing to share their experience.

Thanks

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  #242 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Experience: None
Platform: TS, TOS, Ninja(Analytics)
Trading: NQ CL, ES when volatile mrkts
 
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Jigsaw is great. You may wish to visit the site. I think there is enough material to start someone off in the correct direction.

OF is a very big subject. There are some great threads on OF///ofcourse AMA on Jigsaw, Tape by bloom, Michaels scalper..etc etc. Depending on what someone wishes to do...tape is an endless and rapidly evolving subject. However the basics are pretty much the same. Before even delving into a grand scheme of Tape...one needs to understand the market...& probably be able to look at the DOM. Jigsaw offers a unique method to look into the DOM & Time & Sales. To me DOM is ofcourse imp....but i also am always looking at T&S. With T&S one can do Scalps or Swings...it just depends on their style & what instrument is being looked at.

Anyways....as pointed above the threads & Jigsaw's own webpage is a great OF start point. You will find many things out there. And always feel free to drop Pete a note. He is very responsive & may have much better pointers for you
https://www.jigsawtrading.com/2015/09/17/order-flow-keeping-it-simple-practical-effective/

cheers n goodluck

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 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

It is my pleasure to welcome back Peter Davies from Jigsaw Trading for a webinar on Thursday, October 19th @ 4:30 PM Eastern US.

The title for this event is "Daytradr: A look inside", and bullet points include:

- Jigsaw daytradr: The new stand-alone trading platform from Jigsaw Trading
- daytradr features: what it does
- daytradr features: why it's different
- Performance profile
- Trader statistics dashboard, leaderboard
- Stat sharing - getting recognized
- Education overview

Register for the event:
https://futures.io/webinars/#registernow

Mike

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  #244 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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We're here to help -- just ask

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  #245 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
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Is the training high level enough to consider purchasing the "DAYTRADR INSTITUTIONAL" offering for $1687 vs buying the cheaper $579 package and training with say No BS Day Trading or some other vendor?

I just want a highly informative DOM. I don't care about their heatmap or other features, Bookmap makes the best heatmap on the market...

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  #246 (permalink)
 uspilotzzz 
Denver, CO United States
 
Experience: Intermediate
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
Is the training high level enough to consider purchasing the "DAYTRADR INSTITUTIONAL" offering for $1687 vs buying the cheaper $579 package and training with say No BS Day Trading or some other vendor?

I just want a highly informative DOM. I don't care about their heatmap or other features, Bookmap makes the best heatmap on the market...

If you are only interested in the DOM go with the basic package. If you like the instruction you see you can always upgrade to the other packages.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #247 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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MichaelFlowTrader View Post
Is the training high level enough to consider purchasing the "DAYTRADR INSTITUTIONAL" offering for $1687 vs buying the cheaper $579 package and training with say No BS Day Trading or some other vendor?

I just want a highly informative DOM. I don't care about their heatmap or other features, Bookmap makes the best heatmap on the market...

It's up to you - if you just want the DOM - take the $579 package, which includes 10 hours of training material.

When looking for education - I would recommend the stuff from No BS too - it's just a matter of which you think will suit your trading style.

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  #248 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Recording has been sent to @Big Mike, please give him some time to post he had another surgery today and is in recovery.

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  #249 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Webinar recording:



Mike

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  #250 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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What did everyone think of the webinar?

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  #251 (permalink)
 TheShrike 
Hi Mom!
Bridgeport, Ct
 
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  #252 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Big Mike View Post
What did everyone think of the webinar?

Mike

Hope you are feeling well Mike!

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  #253 (permalink)
 mtntrader 
Kalispell, MT
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-fire
Trading: CL, 6E
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 1 given, 1 received

The webinar with Jigsaw's Peter was outstanding!!
Thanks Mike!!
Hope you recover completely and feel much better that before!

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  #254 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Experience: None
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Posts: 1,721 since Oct 2011
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just checked the webinar...congrats Pete on the new platform.

Seems you doing quite many things. Cheers and Goodluck !!

Went to check out the Jigsaw chat.... could not find that on the webpage. Is there a separate link to that. ?

thnx

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  #255 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

It is my pleasure to welcome back Peter Davies @ Jigsaw Trading for a webinar on Tuesday, January 9th @ 4:30PM Eastern US.

The title for the event is "Volume Spikes: Understanding & Exploiting Them", and bullet points include:

- Learning about Market Characteristics
- What is a Volume Spike?
- Differing Emotions of participants in a spike
- Identifying the Tipping Point
- Timing your entry

Register for the event:
https://on.futures.io/uxcx9

Mike

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  #256 (permalink)
 OpalDragon 
Des Moines, Iowa
 
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Trading: 6E, CL, Anything that moves
 
Posts: 488 since Jun 2012
Thanks: 647 given, 192 received

JIGSAW IS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC AND I USE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

There that is my review...

Want more details?

I have used the program for a long long time and never failed on me --- very very stable.
The NEW PROGRAM -- Stand Alone DOM -- is freaking awesome..
and now it can even be connected to your platforms data feed so that you don't have to pay double data fees.

Pete is a freaking great guy that instantly answers all my support questions very very quickly.

He knows his stuff --- FOR REAL --- and HE IS A REAL TRADER like the rest of us -- unlike ALOT OF PROFESSIONAL B.S.ers that are in the vendor community ( Like for example Rob Hoffman of PowerCharting.com, Back to the Future/Flux, Intentional Trader and Symmetry Traders are all examples of garbage, weak or completely fake 'systems').

Pete is the REAL DEAL Holyfield.

Pete is the first one to tell you that you need SKILLS not indicators first to make money.

After you have the skills, knowledge and understanding THEN... you can add indicators to ADD to your EDGE.

Once you get the skills from the DOM you can trade anything.

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  #257 (permalink)
 justtrader 
San Francisco, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader, TOS
Trading: es, rty, cl, gc, nq, ym, dax
 
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I signed up 3 times since Friday and got zero emails from GoToWebinar with the link to join. Can any body help with the link?

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  #258 (permalink)
 bulge 
Dayton, Ohio
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: TOS
Trading: GC, CL, Eurodollar
 
Posts: 34 since Nov 2017
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OpalDragon View Post
JIGSAW IS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC AND I USE IT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

There that is my review...

Want more details?

I have used the program for a long long time and never failed on me --- very very stable.
The NEW PROGRAM -- Stand Alone DOM -- is freaking awesome..
and now it can even be connected to your platforms data feed so that you don't have to pay double data fees.

...

Are you saying that you don't have to pay an additional $50 per month to Jigsaw for data?

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  #259 (permalink)
 fivewhy 
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8, Bookmap
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 158 since Feb 2017
Thanks: 73 given, 144 received


bulge View Post
Are you saying that you don't have to pay an additional $50 per month to Jigsaw for data?

No, he's saying you don't have to pay for data twice...i.e., you don't have to pay for one data feed going to your broker/trader software (such as NT8 or OEC Trader or whatever) as well as one data feed going into the Jigsaw stand alone app. Currently, you only need to pay data fee for the feed into NT8. The stand alone Jigsaw app gets it data from NT8 (for example). The same is true (I think) for other trading platforms such as OEC Trader (or whatever whitelabel name version your using). Contact Jigsaw though, to get details and correct information.

I believe, in the past, you had to pay for a data feed directly into the Jigsaw stand alone app. But that lasted for only a short duration. Jigsaw has since been modified to feed off the trading app's data feed, which is great and perfectly appropriate solution. But I find the whole thing to be compute intensive...iow, you'll likely want a halfway decent machine to run all this. A better machine won't make you better any more than awesome running cleats will make you a better sprinter, but you don't want to run the software package on a 4-year old machine just like you don't want to run a competitive race in some secondhand bobos.

You still have to pay the $50 per month to Jigsaw to trade live accounts (I believe). But you don't have to pay that $50 if you're not live trading. Having said that, I could always be completely wrong for any reason or no reason at all.

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  #260 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
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Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
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Webinar recording:



Mike

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For the best trading education, watch our webinars
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Support our community as an Elite Member:
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  #261 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 50,028 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,487 given, 98,345 received

What did everyone think of the webinar?

Mike

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For the best trading education, watch our webinars
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  #262 (permalink)
 OpalDragon 
Des Moines, Iowa
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Trading: 6E, CL, Anything that moves
 
Posts: 488 since Jun 2012
Thanks: 647 given, 192 received


bulge View Post
Are you saying that you don't have to pay an additional $50 per month to Jigsaw for data?

You ALWAYS have to pay the $50 per month to Jigsaw... but that is if you want trade FROM THE Jigsaw Dom.

I use Auction Vista and the Strenth/Power meters more than the DOM so still have not subscribed to those $50/month.

Probably will in the future.

What I meant with not having to pay DOUBLE DATA FEES is>>>>
that your Ninja Trader platform runs on Rithmic or CQG and if you wanted to run the stand alone platform the brokers made you have to pay an additional $10 bucks a month to have another log in to run the stand alone platform.

Now you don't even need that -- because the stand alone will connect to your Ninja 7 platform and start kicking ass right there. That will save you the $10 bucks per month for an additional connection log in from the brokers....

When DayTrdr+ came out it needed an additional log in to the brokers and to your account -- but not anymore. That is what I mean.

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  #263 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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OpalDragon View Post
..............because the stand alone will connect to your Ninja 7..............

Just for clarity for future readers. The current daytradr Beta is for Ninja 8 connection (and OEC). Not NT7.
Pete has said they might do a bridge later for Ninja 7, depending on how long Ninja expect to carry on supporting NT7.

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 jmccabeVA 
Washington DC/USA
 
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Hi all,
Mostly been a lurker and looking to get back to futures trading. I asked Peter about the 50 subscription fee and what that consists of. My understanding is that the software (Daytradr) is a one time cost (depending on level) and then 50/month for the live trading. His response on a ticket was for example: 579/month for basic plus the 50/month live? Is that a misprint? Been waiting on a repsonse so I thought I would ask folks here who may be customers of Jigsaw.

Thanks.

-James

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  #265 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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jmccabeVA View Post
is response on a ticket was for example: 579/month for basic plus the 50/month live? Is that a misprint? Been waiting on a repsonse so I thought I would ask folks here who may be customers of Jigsaw

I use Jigsaw. The highlighted bit is a misprint.
The Basic/Independent package is $579 which has a lifetime license. That include free updates for the product, though not for new product lines (though when daytradr was released for instance existing users of the plugin product were moved over to that free without needing to pay extra before the price increase. Jigsaw customer support is easier if as many people are using daytradr rather than the old plugin version).
The live $50 is only if you want to trade by clicking on a live DOM. If you are trading live off another platform DOM and only using the Jigsaw products as information/indicators you wouldn't pay the $50. You also don't pay if you are trading a demo/sim account.

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  #266 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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jmccabeVA View Post
Hi all,
Mostly been a lurker and looking to get back to futures trading. I asked Peter about the 50 subscription fee and what that consists of. My understanding is that the software (Daytradr) is a one time cost (depending on level) and then 50/month for the live trading. His response on a ticket was for example: 579/month for basic plus the 50/month live? Is that a misprint? Been waiting on a repsonse so I thought I would ask folks here who may be customers of Jigsaw.

Thanks.

-James

Sorry James! Been a hectic few weeks.

The $50/month is to trade live directly from the tools.

There is no $579/month - the $579 is lifetime. Excuse me while I go strangle Dave in support...

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  #267 (permalink)
 jmccabeVA 
Washington DC/USA
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Sorry James! Been a hectic few weeks.

The $50/month is to trade live directly from the tools.

There is no $579/month - the $579 is lifetime. Excuse me while I go strangle Dave in support...

Peter,
Thanks so much for the response! Makes more sense now. Make sure you can touch the fingers of each hand when you throat grab. It makes for a more dramatic response! All kidding aside, looking forward to start using the tools.

-James

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  #268 (permalink)
 jmccabeVA 
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matthew28 View Post
I use Jigsaw. The highlighted bit is a misprint.
The Basic/Independent package is $579 which has a lifetime license. That include free updates for the product, though not for new product lines (though when daytradr was released for instance existing users of the plugin product were moved over to that free without needing to pay extra before the price increase. Jigsaw customer support is easier if as many people are using daytradr rather than the old plugin version).
The live $50 is only if you want to trade by clicking on a live DOM. If you are trading live off another platform DOM and only using the Jigsaw products as information/indicators you wouldn't pay the $50. You also don't pay if you are trading a demo/sim account.

Awsome. Thank you for responding.

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  #269 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

Please check out this additional thread specifically for the Journalytix trade analytics and journaling product from Jigsaw Trading:



Details will be posted in that thread about an upcoming webinar that discusses the importance of trade analytics, and covers the features of the Journalytix product.

Mike

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  #270 (permalink)
 franmadrid 
spain
 
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someone buy the institutional version? I would like a review of the training offered there, if that institutional training is of quality and worth paying. Thank you

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  #271 (permalink)
 SawDr 
Washington, DC
 
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franmadrid View Post
someone buy the institutional version? I would like a review of the training offered there, if that institutional training is of quality and worth paying. Thank you

Bump - I'm also curious about the Axia training. The price includes one year of trading a live account which saves you the $50/month for a year - if the training is solid it looks like a good deal.

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  #272 (permalink)
 quantstyle 
Hong Kong
 
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Please advise. I'm looking to purchase a trading platform for backtesting and automated-trading executions, something that will also work well with Jigsaw.

I have already purchased Jigsaw daytradr lifetime licence and the training course.

Considering:
- Multicharts.NET / Multicharts EasyLanguage
- Ninjatrader 8
- Sierra Charts
- Investor RT (no automated trading)

Broker: IB
Feed: IQFeed

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  #273 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Tip


Just a quick note that we've renamed Pete's username on the site from DionysusToast to @Jigsaw Trading. This is just an FYI to avoid any confusion.




Mike

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  #274 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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SawDr View Post
Bump - I'm also curious about the Axia training. The price includes one year of trading a live account which saves you the $50/month for a year - if the training is solid it looks like a good deal.

Well - I could give you a review ;-)

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  #275 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Nedster View Post
Any plans to add futures spread trading functionality?

You can trade exchange traded spreads now.

Demand is low for synthetics at the moment though.

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  #276 (permalink)
 wthflow 
tibee, GA, USA
 
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Just want to give a shout out to Peter and Jigsaw trading. I've been a long time user of the Jigsaw DOM plugin, and it's been a great tool to help me see what's happening in the market i'm trading.

The customer service Peter provides is also top notch. Today, he helped me at ES market open to activate a license. He used remote access to fix the issue I was having, and got me up and running in time to trade the morning session.

Thanks for the help, Peter ! I recommend Jigsaw and their product line for anyone who wants to get an edge using traders' trading tools.

Chris.

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 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

We've just updated the special Elite Offers, as @Jigsaw Trading has updated their offers available to Elite Members:





If you are interested in the Daytradr 10% discount, click here:
10% off Daytradr by Jigsaw

If you are interested in the Journalytix 10% discount, click here:
10% off Journalytix by Jigsaw

You can find all the available Elite Offers here:
https://futures.io/offers/

Thank you to @Jigsaw Trading for their continued support as a site sponsor of futures io.

Mike

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  #278 (permalink)
Trader1034
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Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.




Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD. Jigsaw is a joke.
I'll start by saying that Jigsaw itself is a good tool. What's bad is Journalytix. Specifically, the "leader board".

Here's the problem. You have a bunch of people trading on SIM or DEMO that don't take it seriously. They're always the top dogs on the leader board. These guys would never trade the same way with real money.

IF Peter Davies was serious, he would create two leader boards. One with only SIM trading and another with only LIVE trading. It's technically easy for him to do that. Then maybe people would take the leader board seriously.

I mean seriously. If I wanted to be top dog, sure I can martingale my way to number one. Get in a trade and keep adding until I have no choice but to make money on the trade.


Look at today. Here's the"top 3" on the leader board: https://gyazo.com/00d2abcc1466cbba2724cc74bad6be21

Look at #1: https://gyazo.com/32c2966dfe35c7d461386d52768ffd90

It's a demo account. Does anyone seriously think he made $600,000 in June and $400,000 in August? Of course not. It's easy when it's Monopoly money.

How about #2: https://gyazo.com/ce1b01e3438bf0d62be453d2f17b2ae6

Again, demo. If it was real money, he wouldn't have a $400,000 draw down in the month.



My point is people look at this as a joke. Peter has the technical ability to have two leader boards. One for only live trading and one for this fake trading. Obviously, people would take the live trading leader board seriously. When I click on the individual names, over 90% of these guys are trading demo. There's a reason no one takes it seriously.


If Jigsaw wants a serious and "professional" platform, they need to take this seriously. At this point, people look at Jigsaw as a joke. I mean seriously. The guys in #1 and #2 are making $500k or losing that amount on demo. Really?


I don't know why Peter won't make the adjustment. He can even have a feature to filter out only live trading and you see who really does well. Then people will really look at Jigsaw as a serious platform.

Supposedly, they're a "competitor to Trading Technologies X_Trader. There's no competition. X_Trader blows them away. Maybe if they took every aspect of their business seriously and catered to serious traders, people would view this different.

This isn't my view only. I talk to a lot of traders and hear the same thing across the board.

It's a simple fix. Fix that and people will respect Jigsaw. Making a guy #1 because he can trade 1,000 ES contracts on DEMO is a joke. Seriously. We want to see real live trades. We want to see how real traders with real money are doing. No one cares about some guy trading Monopoly money. We all have that ability to trade that way. We want to see who actually does well with REAL money. Peter I hope you read this and actually implement a change.

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  #279 (permalink)
mpxtreme
New York
 
 
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.




Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD. Jigsaw is a joke.
I'll start by saying that Jigsaw itself is a good tool. What's bad is Journalytix. Specifically, the "leader board".

Here's the problem. You have a bunch of people trading on SIM or DEMO that don't take it seriously. They're always the top dogs on the leader board. These guys would never trade the same way with real money.

IF Peter Davies was serious, he would create two leader boards. One with only SIM trading and another with only LIVE trading. It's technically easy for him to do that. Then maybe people would take the leader board seriously.

I mean seriously. If I wanted to be top dog, sure I can martingale my way to number one. Get in a trade and keep adding until I have no choice but to make money on the trade.


Look at today. Here's the"top 3" on the leader board: https://gyazo.com/00d2abcc1466cbba2724cc74bad6be21

Look at #1: https://gyazo.com/32c2966dfe35c7d461386d52768ffd90

It's a demo account. Does anyone seriously think he made $600,000 in June and $400,000 in August? Of course not. It's easy when it's Monopoly money.

How about #2: https://gyazo.com/ce1b01e3438bf0d62be453d2f17b2ae6

Again, demo. If it was real money, he wouldn't have a $400,000 draw down in the month.



My point is people look at this as a joke. Peter has the technical ability to have two leader boards. One for only live trading and one for this fake trading. Obviously, people would take the live trading leader board seriously. When I click on the individual names, over 90% of these guys are trading demo. There's a reason no one takes it seriously.


If Jigsaw wants a serious and "professional" platform, they need to take this seriously. At this point, people look at Jigsaw as a joke. I mean seriously. The guys in #1 and #2 are making $500k or losing that amount on demo. Really?


I don't know why Peter won't make the adjustment. He can even have a feature to filter out only live trading and you see who really does well. Then people will really look at Jigsaw as a serious platform.

Supposedly, they're a "competitor to Trading Technologies X_Trader. There's no competition. X_Trader blows them away. Maybe if they took every aspect of their business seriously and catered to serious traders, people would view this different.

This isn't my view only. I talk to a lot of traders and hear the same thing across the board.

It's a simple fix. Fix that and people will respect Jigsaw. Making a guy #1 because he can trade 1,000 ES contracts on DEMO is a joke. Seriously. We want to see real live trades. We want to see how real traders with real money are doing. No one cares about some guy trading Monopoly money. We all have that ability to trade that way. We want to see who actually does well with REAL money. Peter I hope you read this and actually implement a change.

I don't know one trader(Jigsaw user or otherwise)who cares one iota about some other traders results.The main reason most traders I know who are using it...are using it for execution practice and concept/trade setup validation...in SIM. The crazy pnl swings you are seeing are non-serious results and so what!?Who cares what someone else is doing or not doing?It's not a trade copy service or trader sim audition...you have Topstep for that. As long as "you" take your use of it seriously...nothing else matters.

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Trader1034
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Actually if it was real trades, you would have a serous benchmark to compare your trades to. In that sense, it would be useful. With Jigsaw not splitting fake trades from real trades, you can't take that benchmark seriously.

They advertise it as the entire package. Execution. Journal. If that's the case, part of what you're paying for should be to compare your live trades to others grinding it out.

Am I profitable? Yes. Do I make a living off of trading? Yes I don't have another job and pay my bills from this. It would be nice to compare how I do to others that are trading live as well.

That's not only my opinion. Other traders I've talked to feel the same. Some may not care about comparing live trades to what other live traders are doing but a lot of traders do care about that. What they don't want is to compare to some guy trading Monopoly money. It's technically an easy add in for Jigsaw to implement if they wanted. It's been a requested feature for a long time but Peter seems hesitant to implement that. Maybe seeing traders "making" $500k would provide incentive for potential customers? IDK.

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  #281 (permalink)
mpxtreme
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Trader1034 View Post
Actually if it was real trades, you would have a serous benchmark to compare your trades to. In that sense, it would be useful. With Jigsaw not splitting fake trades from real trades, you can't take that benchmark seriously.

They advertise it as the entire package. Execution. Journal. If that's the case, part of what you're paying for should be to compare your live trades to others grinding it out.

Am I profitable? Yes. Do I make a living off of trading? Yes I don't have another job and pay my bills from this. It would be nice to compare how I do to others that are trading live as well.

That's not only my opinion. Other traders I've talked to feel the same. Some may not care about comparing live trades to what other live traders are doing but a lot of traders do care about that. What they don't want is to compare to some guy trading Monopoly money. It's technically an easy add in for Jigsaw to implement if they wanted. It's been a requested feature for a long time but Peter seems hesitant to implement that. Maybe seeing traders "making" $500k would provide incentive for potential customers? IDK.

I understand where you're coming from,maybe it's just me ...but most traders I know with edge don't want the attention.

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  #282 (permalink)
 tr8d3r 
Sydney+Australia
 
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Trader1034 View Post
Actually if it was real trades, you would have a serous benchmark to compare your trades to. In that sense, it would be useful. With Jigsaw not splitting fake trades from real trades, you can't take that benchmark seriously.

They advertise it as the entire package. Execution. Journal. If that's the case, part of what you're paying for should be to compare your live trades to others grinding it out.

Am I profitable? Yes. Do I make a living off of trading? Yes I don't have another job and pay my bills from this. It would be nice to compare how I do to others that are trading live as well.

That's not only my opinion. Other traders I've talked to feel the same. Some may not care about comparing live trades to what other live traders are doing but a lot of traders do care about that. What they don't want is to compare to some guy trading Monopoly money. It's technically an easy add in for Jigsaw to implement if they wanted. It's been a requested feature for a long time but Peter seems hesitant to implement that. Maybe seeing traders "making" $500k would provide incentive for potential customers? IDK.

Hey @Trader1034, Let me through few cents here. I understand where you are coming from. How about we are going to look from the another angle. What you referring to is the Retail trader. I believe Peter @Jigsaw Trading already mentioned somewhere in this forum that the platform is used by Prop Shops and he explain somewhere that account set DEMO. What solution are you proposing here if PPL in a Prop Shop are using this tool? I don't believe they have individual account like retail traders. In my example, i trade with Earn2Trade, I don't have my personal account set up and this is appearing as a DEMO in journalitix. All other accounts like online prop shops are listed as a demo as well.
So I am not sure what you are suggesting is going to work. It is just a tool and it is your choice how you can slice and dice it. I am sure you can find someone with a retail account and follow that user and extract his/her trades and set it as a bench mark. But then again you will miss traders who trades Online Prop shops or regular Prop Shops.

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  #283 (permalink)
Trader1034
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mpxtreme View Post
I understand where you're coming from,maybe it's just me ...but most traders I know with edge don't want the attention.

You have a username. There's no attention because no one knows who you are. It's just a made up username that people know you by.

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  #284 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
Atlanta
 
 
Posts: 127 since Jan 2017
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TT is one of my favorite platforms, but it doesn't blow Jigsaw out the water. I emphatically disagree with you. TT has one of the best DOMs, but it is missing many features that make Jigsaw a great choice. When it comes to charting, TT is also behind and has limited options. If TT had the basics of Jigsaw it would be my go to platform (I don't need fancy charts.) Who really offers the best of all world's but doesn't quite keep up in the trade management aspect of DOM execution is Sierra Charts. They offer everything, a jack of all trades, a master of none. We are stuck without a single 'does everything perfectly platform.' About your primary gripe, I don't care about a leaderboard and I doubt most ppl do. Talk to Peter directly before badmouthing his company, maybe? Pete's a good guy, he would likely listen.

My own request!
Hey Pete, can we please have a tick history within depth & sales like T4 and SC offer? It would mean never needing to load a chart for some of us who scalp. SC has better options for this than T4, but you get the idea?

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  #285 (permalink)
Trader1034
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tr8d3r View Post
Hey @Trader1034, Let me through few cents here. I understand where you are coming from. How about we are going to look from the another angle. What you referring to is the Retail trader. I believe Peter @Jigsaw Trading already mentioned somewhere in this forum that the platform is used by Prop Shops and he explain somewhere that account set DEMO. What solution are you proposing here if PPL in a Prop Shop are using this tool? I don't believe they have individual account like retail traders. In my example, i trade with Earn2Trade, I don't have my personal account set up and this is appearing as a DEMO in journalitix. All other accounts like online prop shops are listed as a demo as well.
So I am not sure what you are suggesting is going to work. It is just a tool and it is your choice how you can slice and dice it. I am sure you can find someone with a retail account and follow that user and extract his/her trades and set it as a bench mark. But then again you will miss traders who trades Online Prop shops or regular Prop Shops.

Peter has the option of adding "live only" so people can filter out trades that are retail. I tried and passed TopStep to see what it was about. I posted my trades on the leader board and they actually showed up as "live" not "demo". As far as TST goes, it doesn't say demo for the funded trades. When I was in the combine, the trades were called "combine". When I got funded, they called them "live".

If it was a true prop shop, Peter can always call the trades "prop live" vs. "demo". Demo and Sim basically mean the same thing. That's one option and is less misleading.

Retail trader is a funny word. People associate that with a trader that doesn't make money. Retail trader is anyone that trades for their own account. That includes traders that make money. Someone could have traded for a big bank and left to trade at home. That person although before was considered pro is now retail. That doesn't mean that person doesn't make money trading.

Anyway, the request is to simply have a filter button at minimum. Filter only live trades. And if there are prop shops to call those trades prop live and have a filter for those. Again, when I tried and got funded for TopStep, my trades showed up as "live" not "demo".

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Trader1034
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TT is one of my favorite platforms, but it doesn't blow Jigsaw out the water. I emphatically disagree with you. TT has one of the best DOMs, but it is missing many features that make Jigsaw a great choice. When it comes to charting, TT is also behind and has limited options. If TT had the basics of Jigsaw it would be my go to platform (I don't need fancy charts.) Who really offers the best of all world's but doesn't quite keep up in the trade management aspect of DOM execution is Sierra Charts. They offer everything, a jack of all trades, a master of none. We are stuck without a single 'does everything perfectly platform.' About your primary gripe, I don't care about a leaderboard and I doubt most ppl do. Talk to Peter directly before badmouthing his company, maybe? Pete's a good guy, he would likely listen.

My own request!
Hey Pete, can we please have a tick history within depth & sales like T4 and SC offer? It would mean never needing to load a chart for some of us who scalp. SC has better options for this than T4, but you get the idea? Attachment 274133

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This request has been made to Peter already. Anyway, I've seen Jigsaw stall on very fast markets. This isn't the bridge to NinjaTrader version. This was a CQG direct connection. It stalled and I had to restart. X_Trader has never blinked an eye in the fastest of markets. I don't use charts so I don't use any TT charts and wouldn't be the best to comment on them. I'm simply looking at the DOM and stability.

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MichaelFlowTrader
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Trader1034 View Post
This request has been made to Peter already. Anyway, I've seen Jigsaw stall on very fast markets. This isn't the bridge to NinjaTrader version. This was a CQG direct connection. It stalled and I had to restart. X_Trader has never blinked an eye in the fastest of markets. I don't use charts so I don't use any TT charts and wouldn't be the best to comment on them. I'm simply looking at the DOM and stability.

I love TT. The problem is that on thicker markets it is hard to let go of Jigsaw's information advantage.

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  #288 (permalink)
MichaelFlowTrader
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Trader1034 View Post
Peter has the option of adding "live only" so people can filter out trades that are retail. I tried and passed TopStep to see what it was about. I posted my trades on the leader board and they actually showed up as "live" not "demo". As far as TST goes, it doesn't say demo for the funded trades. When I was in the combine, the trades were called "combine". When I got funded, they called them "live".

If it was a true prop shop, Peter can always call the trades "prop live" vs. "demo". Demo and Sim basically mean the same thing. That's one option and is less misleading.

Retail trader is a funny word. People associate that with a trader that doesn't make money. Retail trader is anyone that trades for their own account. That includes traders that make money. Someone could have traded for a big bank and left to trade at home. That person although before was considered pro is now retail. That doesn't mean that person doesn't make money trading.

Anyway, the request is to simply have a filter button at minimum. Filter only live trades. And if there are prop shops to call those trades prop live and have a filter for those. Again, when I tried and got funded for TopStep, my trades showed up as "live" not "demo".

Not all home traders are retail traders. Some have exchange seats, some get billed as professionals for data, and so on. But I get what you are saying.

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 Blash 
Market Chamois
Chicago, IL
 
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Honestly, I couldn't care less about what any Leaderboard says. Please why do you care so much?

I can only control what I do.... It only matters what I do, what my PnL does. If someone does well, I'm happy for them and that's it.

If someone is on sim so what, it means nothing to the market.

My friend all that matters is you ....focus on you and only you.

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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.




Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD. Jigsaw is a joke.
I'll start by saying that Jigsaw itself is a good tool. What's bad is Journalytix. Specifically, the "leader board".

Here's the problem. You have a bunch of people trading on SIM or DEMO that don't take it seriously. They're always the top dogs on the leader board. These guys would never trade the same way with real money.

IF Peter Davies was serious, he would create two leader boards. One with only SIM trading and another with only LIVE trading. It's technically easy for him to do that. Then maybe people would take the leader board seriously.

I mean seriously. If I wanted to be top dog, sure I can martingale my way to number one. Get in a trade and keep adding until I have no choice but to make money on the trade.


Look at today. Here's the"top 3" on the leader board: https://gyazo.com/00d2abcc1466cbba2724cc74bad6be21

Look at #1: https://gyazo.com/32c2966dfe35c7d461386d52768ffd90

It's a demo account. Does anyone seriously think he made $600,000 in June and $400,000 in August? Of course not. It's easy when it's Monopoly money.

How about #2: https://gyazo.com/ce1b01e3438bf0d62be453d2f17b2ae6

Again, demo. If it was real money, he wouldn't have a $400,000 draw down in the month.



My point is people look at this as a joke. Peter has the technical ability to have two leader boards. One for only live trading and one for this fake trading. Obviously, people would take the live trading leader board seriously. When I click on the individual names, over 90% of these guys are trading demo. There's a reason no one takes it seriously.


If Jigsaw wants a serious and "professional" platform, they need to take this seriously. At this point, people look at Jigsaw as a joke. I mean seriously. The guys in #1 and #2 are making $500k or losing that amount on demo. Really?


I don't know why Peter won't make the adjustment. He can even have a feature to filter out only live trading and you see who really does well. Then people will really look at Jigsaw as a serious platform.

Supposedly, they're a "competitor to Trading Technologies X_Trader. There's no competition. X_Trader blows them away. Maybe if they took every aspect of their business seriously and catered to serious traders, people would view this different.

This isn't my view only. I talk to a lot of traders and hear the same thing across the board.

It's a simple fix. Fix that and people will respect Jigsaw. Making a guy #1 because he can trade 1,000 ES contracts on DEMO is a joke. Seriously. We want to see real live trades. We want to see how real traders with real money are doing. No one cares about some guy trading Monopoly money. We all have that ability to trade that way. We want to see who actually does well with REAL money. Peter I hope you read this and actually implement a change.


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  #290 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO.

He constantly closes duplicate threads, it is an advantage of the site that information about companies or products is easy to find due to it all being in only one or two threads.
I am sure Futures.io does collect revenue from advertisers, and I have seen Jigsaw adverts on the site, but then find me a commercial website that does not have adverts. (But as is stated on the Elite Members page he doesn't take money for Elite Member referrals on the product discounts).
I presume that advertising revenue also helps allow Mike to continue having access to the site for non members who haven't paid anything, such as yourself as you appear to not be a Elite Member, rather than making it completely Member only.

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 arnie 
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.

Instead of complaining about it on the forum, go to Skype and contact Peter directly.
He will gladly talk to you about your concerns.
Peter is a great guy, always available to help.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #292 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
Since Big Mike closed the thread "Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD, Jigsaw is a joke.", I'll post the same thread here. He said he's closing it so he doesn't split topics. We also know that Jigsaw pays Futures IO. IDK. Anyway, here's the same post since Mike wants it in this thread.




Jigsaw Journalytix is BAD. Jigsaw is a joke.
I'll start by saying that Jigsaw itself is a good tool. What's bad is Journalytix. Specifically, the "leader board".

Some diverse opinions there - our entire company is a joke but actually, there's just one thing that seems to be at issue. The leaderboard isn't what you want it to be, right?


Trader1034 View Post
Here's the problem. You have a bunch of people trading on SIM or DEMO that don't take it seriously. They're always the top dogs on the leader board. These guys would never trade the same way with real money.

IF Peter Davies was serious, he would create two leader boards. One with only SIM trading and another with only LIVE trading. It's technically easy for him to do that. Then maybe people would take the leader board seriously.

I mean seriously. If I wanted to be top dog, sure I can martingale my way to number one. Get in a trade and keep adding until I have no choice but to make money on the trade.

A couple of points to bear in mind:
- The leaderboard is a trader development tool and most developing traders are on SIM/Combine
- The leaderboard on a weekly/monthly basis is rated on consistency and not P&L, using a proprietary algorithm developed based on how prop firms take traders live
- Stupid stuff like scaling into offside positions is marked down, so people doing that should not come out on top on a weekly/monthly basis
- Daily leaderboard is based on P&L but there is some downgrading for intraday drawdowns, we could certainly improve on that.


Trader1034 View Post
Look at today. Here's the"top 3" on the leader board: https://gyazo.com/00d2abcc1466cbba2724cc74bad6be21

Look at #1: https://gyazo.com/32c2966dfe35c7d461386d52768ffd90

It's a demo account. Does anyone seriously think he made $600,000 in June and $400,000 in August? Of course not. It's easy when it's Monopoly money.

How about #2: https://gyazo.com/ce1b01e3438bf0d62be453d2f17b2ae6

Again, demo. If it was real money, he wouldn't have a $400,000 draw down in the month.



My point is people look at this as a joke. Peter has the technical ability to have two leader boards. One for only live trading and one for this fake trading. Obviously, people would take the live trading leader board seriously. When I click on the individual names, over 90% of these guys are trading demo. There's a reason no one takes it seriously.

I understand the leaderboard is not what you think it should be but that doesn't make it a joke. You can't rank on consistency on a single day, which is why the daily leaderboard is P&L based and open to people doing daft stuff for entertainment.

The larger traders on Journalytix are not opted into the leaderboard. It's about peers in the development stage seeing what others can do over time if they trade consistently.



Trader1034 View Post
If Jigsaw wants a serious and "professional" platform, they need to take this seriously. At this point, people look at Jigsaw as a joke. I mean seriously. The guys in #1 and #2 are making $500k or losing that amount on demo. Really?


I don't know why Peter won't make the adjustment. He can even have a feature to filter out only live trading and you see who really does well. Then people will really look at Jigsaw as a serious platform.

The prop firms using Journalytix have their own leaderboards. You can't see them on the public leaderboards. They are also able to segregate their leadeboard by groups of traders.


Trader1034 View Post
Supposedly, they're a "competitor to Trading Technologies X_Trader. There's no competition. X_Trader blows them away. Maybe if they took every aspect of their business seriously and catered to serious traders, people would view this different.

This isn't my view only. I talk to a lot of traders and hear the same thing across the board.

It's a simple fix. Fix that and people will respect Jigsaw. Making a guy #1 because he can trade 1,000 ES contracts on DEMO is a joke. Seriously. We want to see real live trades. We want to see how real traders with real money are doing. No one cares about some guy trading Monopoly money. We all have that ability to trade that way. We want to see who actually does well with REAL money. Peter I hope you read this and actually implement a change.

I don't see how the daily public leaderboard working a certain way has the whole trading community saying our DOM is no good.

Weekly/Monthly leaderboards are not open to gaming in the way you describe.But I do respect your opinion, if not the OTT way you present it. We may do a live/demo leaderboard in the future but I think the net benefit to aspiring traders of progressing up the rankings on the weekly/monthly is doing what we wanted it to do.

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  #293 (permalink)
Trader1034
New York
 
 
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Jigsaw Trading View Post
Some diverse opinions there - our entire company is a joke but actually, there's just one thing that seems to be at issue. The leaderboard isn't what you want it to be, right?



A couple of points to bear in mind:
- The leaderboard is a trader development tool and most developing traders are on SIM/Combine
- The leaderboard on a weekly/monthly basis is rated on consistency and not P&L, using a proprietary algorithm developed based on how prop firms take traders live
- Stupid stuff like scaling into offside positions is marked down, so people doing that should not come out on top on a weekly/monthly basis
- Daily leaderboard is based on P&L but there is some downgrading for intraday drawdowns, we could certainly improve on that.



I understand the leaderboard is not what you think it should be but that doesn't make it a joke. You can't rank on consistency on a single day, which is why the daily leaderboard is P&L based and open to people doing daft stuff for entertainment.

The larger traders on Journalytix are not opted into the leaderboard. It's about peers in the development stage seeing what others can do over time if they trade consistently.




The prop firms using Journalytix have their own leaderboards. You can't see them on the public leaderboards. They are also able to segregate their leadeboard by groups of traders.



I don't see how the daily public leaderboard working a certain way has the whole trading community saying our DOM is no good.

Weekly/Monthly leaderboards are not open to gaming in the way you describe.But I do respect your opinion, if not the OTT way you present it. We may do a live/demo leaderboard in the future but I think the net benefit to aspiring traders of progressing up the rankings on the weekly/monthly is doing what we wanted it to do.


I talk to a lot of traders. Not just on forums but actually talk. I've heard the same complaint across the board. You can use fancy words like proprietary indicator. The request isn't that you change your method of ranking traders. It's simply to add a feature that people can filter out only live trades. Several people have made this request. You keep dodging the request for some reason. It's an easy fix. Put in a button that allows a filter for live trades only. If a traders has both live and sim trades, count only the live trades. You're able to technically add this and a lot of people want it. So why not add it? I get it that you want people to look at the leaderboad and see others making a boat load of money. They feel they NEED Jigsaw to be successful. It's a simple fix and people want it. If you cared about your customer base and what people want, you would add that. Those that don't look or care about the leaderboard don't have to look at it. I want to compare my live trades to others trading live. I don't want to compare my live trades to a guy trading Monopoly money. It's a reasonable request. It wouldn't take your programmers long to add that feature in. It's not that they the leaderboard is open to gaming or not. Trading live is very different. There's psychology and emotions that simply aren't there on sim. If traders want to compare trades against others, why not let them?

And no this isn't just about the leaderboard. I have no confidence trading Jigsaw when the markets move fast. I've had to restart Jigsaw on numerous occasions. This isn't a bridge to NinjaTrader connection. Direct data feed. I've never had to do that with X_Trader. There is absolutely stability issues with Jigsaw. When markets start moving, I switch and trade only on TT. I don't have confidence based on past experience that Jigsaw can hold up to fast markets. If you can fix that stability issue, that would be great.

The stability issue isn't related to my computer. I have an i9 chip with 18 cores. 128gb DDR4 Ram. A 1T Samsung Evo Pro SSD that has the fasted read/write speed on the market. The Internet is 1G both up and down and is dedicated to this computer only. There's another Internet for everything else in the house. And it's all liquid cooled. There are two liquid cooling systems. One solely dedicated to just the i9 chip. The video cards are liquid cooled. The point is it's not on my end. This computer will handle just about anything. With those components, I shouldn't have to kill and restart Jigsaw. But I have had to on numerous occasions on fast markets. If I had an off the shelf computer, I'd say OK maybe my fault. If I had 25 DOMs open, I'd say maybe. If I had a bridge connection, again I'd possibly attribute it to Ninja. I have none of those. I have 1 DOM open. I've tried with a CQG feed and Rithmic feed. It's happened on both feeds. Should the program ever stall with that kind of processing speed? This PC was built this summer and is solely used for trading. No storage of videos or anything like that.

If you can fix the stability issues, great. But we don't get enough extreme markets to be an issue. The request here is to simply add a filter to only look at live trades on the leaderboard. Those that don't care simply won't look at it. Those that do will find it tremendously helpful.

Hopefully it's something you consider.

Thank you

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  #294 (permalink)
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Trader1034 View Post
This request has been made to Peter already. Anyway, I've seen Jigsaw stall on very fast markets. This isn't the bridge to NinjaTrader version. This was a CQG direct connection. It stalled and I had to restart. X_Trader has never blinked an eye in the fastest of markets. I don't use charts so I don't use any TT charts and wouldn't be the best to comment on them. I'm simply looking at the DOM and stability.

Obviously TT doesn't display all the stuff Jigsaw does but Jigsaw has a number of internal features to prevent slowdowns.

When you run Jigsaw with cqg, you have both different data provider, different feed architecture (webockets) and different platform.

We are neutral on assigning cause on a slowdown and in every case, we get the logs so we can see what's going on and discuss the data side with cqg based on session codes from the log.

Customers tend to conclude the platform is at fault but we prefer to investigate.

When any app appears slow, there's 2 things that really help us investigate.

1 - try moving a window. If the window doesn't move, the app is UI bound.
2 - check cpu% - if it's high, there's a CPU issue.

That helps us investigate any issue. It's case by case and we are happy to help.

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matthew28 View Post
He constantly closes duplicate threads, it is an advantage of the site that information about companies or products is easy to find due to it all being in only one or two threads.
I am sure Futures.io does collect revenue from advertisers, and I have seen Jigsaw adverts on the site, but then find me a commercial website that does not have adverts. (But as is stated on the Elite Members page he doesn't take money for Elite Member referrals on the product discounts).
I presume that advertising revenue also helps allow Mike to continue having access to the site for non members who haven't paid anything, such as yourself as you appear to not be a Elite Member, rather than making it completely Member only.

Mike is unique in the industry that he won't close threads containing reasonable complaints about an advertiser.

Instead, he encourages us to respond.

Mike is famous for shutting down posts that are overly negative.

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Trader1034
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Jigsaw Trading View Post
Obviously TT doesn't display all the stuff Jigsaw does but Jigsaw has a number of internal features to prevent slowdowns.

When you run Jigsaw with cqg, you have both different data provider, different feed architecture (webockets) and different platform.

We are neutral on assigning cause on a slowdown and in every case, we get the logs so we can see what's going on and discuss the data side with cqg based on session codes from the log.

Customers tend to conclude the platform is at fault but we prefer to investigate.

When any app appears slow, there's 2 things that really help us investigate.

1 - try moving a window. If the window doesn't move, the app is UI bound.
2 - check cpu% - if it's high, there's a CPU issue.

That helps us investigate any issue. It's case by case and we are happy to help.


Thanks for commenting on the platform slowdown issues. Are you able to comment on why you won't add a feature to filter live trades only on the leaderboard when there's been so many requests? Even during webinars, this question comes up repeatedly. If it's that requested, why not just add it?

FYI when I would have to close down Jigsaw, CPU usage was 10% or so in task manager. Other applications continued to work. Again, I've seen it with CQG and Rithmic but only in fast markets. It's not that much of a concern as we don't get fast markets nearly enough for it to become an issue.

I'd love to hear why you don't add in the requested feature. I hear from traders I talk to that they would like to see this feature. I hear in webinars people I don't know ask the same question. I guess my point of view is if people want it and request it and it won't adversely harm your business, why not? Those that don't care to use it simply won't. It will be a feature for those of us that do prefer to use it.

Thank you

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Trader1034 View Post
I talk to a lot of traders. Not just on forums but actually talk. I've heard the same complaint across the board. You can use fancy words like proprietary indicator. The request isn't that you change your method of ranking traders. It's simply to add a feature that people can filter out only live trades. Several people have made this request. You keep dodging the request for some reason. It's an easy fix. Put in a button that allows a filter for live trades only. If a traders has both live and sim trades, count only the live trades. You're able to technically add this and a lot of people want it. So why not add it? I get it that you want people to look at the leaderboad and see others making a boat load of money. They feel they NEED Jigsaw to be successful. It's a simple fix and people want it. If you cared about your customer base and what people want, you would add that. Those that don't look or care about the leaderboard don't have to look at it. I want to compare my live trades to others trading live. I don't want to compare my live trades to a guy trading Monopoly money. It's a reasonable request. It wouldn't take your programmers long to add that feature in. It's not that they the leaderboard is open to gaming or not. Trading live is very different. There's psychology and emotions that simply aren't there on sim. If traders want to compare trades against others, why not let them?

And no this isn't just about the leaderboard. I have no confidence trading Jigsaw when the markets move fast. I've had to restart Jigsaw on numerous occasions. This isn't a bridge to NinjaTrader connection. Direct data feed. I've never had to do that with X_Trader. There is absolutely stability issues with Jigsaw. When markets start moving, I switch and trade only on TT. I don't have confidence based on past experience that Jigsaw can hold up to fast markets. If you can fix that stability issue, that would be great.

The stability issue isn't related to my computer. I have an i9 chip with 18 cores. 128gb DDR4 Ram. A 1T Samsung Evo Pro SSD that has the fasted read/write speed on the market. The Internet is 1G both up and down and is dedicated to this computer only. There's another Internet for everything else in the house. And it's all liquid cooled. There are two liquid cooling systems. One solely dedicated to just the i9 chip. The video cards are liquid cooled. The point is it's not on my end. This computer will handle just about anything. With those components, I shouldn't have to kill and restart Jigsaw. But I have had to on numerous occasions on fast markets. If I had an off the shelf computer, I'd say OK maybe my fault. If I had 25 DOMs open, I'd say maybe. If I had a bridge connection, again I'd possibly attribute it to Ninja. I have none of those. I have 1 DOM open. I've tried with a CQG feed and Rithmic feed. It's happened on both feeds. Should the program ever stall with that kind of processing speed? This PC was built this summer and is solely used for trading. No storage of videos or anything like that.

If you can fix the stability issues, great. But we don't get enough extreme markets to be an issue. The request here is to simply add a filter to only look at live trades on the leaderboard. Those that don't care simply won't look at it. Those that do will find it tremendously helpful.

Hopefully it's something you consider.

Thank you

On our list right now from a stability/performance perspective is:

- new Tradovate connection stopped (beta new api issue, customers sent new version, waiting for feedback)
- FLAT Button didn't flatten - but the logs got deleted, so we can't investigate with the data provider
- Occasional late reporting of order confirmations - under investigation (we show orders only when confirmed by exchange, so it appears 'late' but gives you more piece of mind - that can often appear as a log if there are comms/exchange issues)

Anything outside of those 3 customer issues is either resolved or unreported.

We did have a few issues integrating to SQL Server compact CE, but they are resolved and anyone not on R19, should upgrade. That database is not being fixed any more and will soon be EOL, so we'll move to something better with multi-threading. We resolved the issues with a set of per-table queues that run on their own threads.

If you feel we've missed something - then please get in touch with details and we'll get onto it.

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Trader1034
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On our list right now from a stability/performance perspective is:

- new Tradovate connection stopped (beta new api issue, customers sent new version, waiting for feedback)
- FLAT Button didn't flatten - but the logs got deleted, so we can't investigate with the data provider
- Occasional late reporting of order confirmations - under investigation (we show orders only when confirmed by exchange, so it appears 'late' but gives you more piece of mind - that can often appear as a log if there are comms/exchange issues)

Anything outside of those 3 customer issues is either resolved or unreported.

We did have a few issues integrating to SQL Server compact CE, but they are resolved and anyone not on R19, should upgrade. That database is not being fixed any more and will soon be EOL, so we'll move to something better with multi-threading. We resolved the issues with a set of per-table queues that run on their own threads.

If you feel we've missed something - then please get in touch with details and we'll get onto it.



Again, the slowdown issues aren't the main concern and reason for the post. Please see the post directly above what you just wrote.

Thanks again

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Thanks for commenting on the platform slowdown issues. Are you able to comment on why you won't add a feature to filter live trades only on the leaderboard when there's been so many requests? Even during webinars, this question comes up repeatedly. If it's that requested, why not just add it?

FYI when I would have to close down Jigsaw, CPU usage was 10% or so in task manager. Other applications continued to work. Again, I've seen it with CQG and Rithmic but only in fast markets. It's not that much of a concern as we don't get fast markets nearly enough for it to become an issue.

I'd love to hear why you don't add in the requested feature. I hear from traders I talk to that they would like to see this feature. I hear in webinars people I don't know ask the same question. I guess my point of view is if people want it and request it and it won't adversely harm your business, why not? Those that don't care to use it simply won't. It will be a feature for those of us that do prefer to use it.

Thank you

Right now priority for Journalytix is importing data from multiple sources. We just added correlation charts to Journalytix - it's there but no announced. So it's not ignorance - it's a queue. Roughly the queue is
1 - Profit seeker issues with the new correlation page
2 - Ability to import trades (with an open API)
3 - Ability to set accounts to ignore

After that we'll prioritize remaining items.

For Jigsaw - it's all hands on deck for charting but the request to change Tradovate API threw us for a loop. We are trying to train a new dev to develop more APIs too - but it's a bit of a painful process. You should see more APIs like IB, TDA shortly

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Complexity on live-only leaderboard is that some trader do both - so there's db changes needed to store/calculate 3 rankings per user
- live rank
- demo rank
- live + demo rank

We have some new stuff planned on ranking and would prefer not to change the old way - but someone is potentially paying for that new way, so it's up in the air right now. I expect to be flying out to see these people next month to nail them down on it.

That's as much as I can say without potentially screwing up a major deal

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