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EZ Color Trading - Article - wgreenie


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EZ Color Trading - Article - wgreenie

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  #1 (permalink)
 jungian 
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Just thought I would update all the futures.io (formerly BMT) folk on Beth a.k.a. "wgreenie" and her progress.

From a local newspaper....

TheRecord - Day-trading business wasn?t EZ to set up

Cheers
Jungian

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 Cloudy 
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Interesting. There is no mention of Big Mike Trading and this forum in the article. I attended an EZ color trading ad webinar from an email ad from ninjatrader back in July soon after I started trying NT and joined futures.io (formerly BMT). I didn't know it was the same lady until now. She did have a nice presentation, pleasant demeanor, and gave a lot of the usual advice like "stick to one system" and other stuff I noticed from advice from several members on the "millions" thread.

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 Big Mike 
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Cloudy View Post
Interesting. There is no mention of Big Mike Trading and this forum in the article

Well the journalist obviously didn't do any kind of research... but wgreenie said she is one of the only women members of a community with over 6000 traders. I assume she means futures.io (formerly BMT), which is actually 20k traders now but maybe was 6k when she joined.

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 Cloudy 
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My bad, I missed that last sentence or it just didn't register. I was having certain .. reactions while reading through it with sentences like "Most of her subscribers are veteran traders, with at least five years experience in the markets." Nice to hear about the 20k roster.

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 Big Mike 
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Cloudy View Post
I was having certain .. reactions while reading through it with sentences like...

Yes, I was scratching my head:

"Her service is ideally suited to retirees looking for a part-time income", followed by "Most of her subscribers are veteran traders, with at least five years experience in the markets". Hmm, isn't that a contradiction?

I cringe a bit thinking of any retired person getting into the markets and trading their own account using "red to green" and "buy here, sell here" type indicator systems. It actually turns my stomach, because most of them will lose some of their hard earned retirement funds and they have no clue that they shouldn't just take what is posted on a website at face value, especially when it seems to be coming from a well-intentioned person. I cringe too when some traders say they are trading to pay for their kids college education. Most will do more harm than good....

So what upsets me is just how the whole industry pitches these systems as this "easy" system to follow, just for a few extra dollars on the side or part-time... not singling out Beth but she is right there with the rest of them... where is all the huge text that says "No system will make you profitable", and "You can't take every signal", and "You can't expect to follow this and make money". That is what the website should say, if you are truly trying to sell it to people as a "filter" -- people that are "veteran traders" that know how to use it as an alert and nothing more. But no, the website doesn't say anything like that.

There are some (few) vendors out there who do post such disclaimers. But most of them don't, because they can make so much more money glossing over those facts.

"The EZ system is designed to make your life easier.

All green/aqua Go Long
All red/magenta Go Short

Upon entry, the system will accompany you until you close your trade. It will provide the guidance to stay in or alert you with warning(s) for an early exit."

This type of wording just gets to me. That is part of why I stopped accepting custom programming jobs. I couldn't get through to people that there is no such thing as an easy fix or a way to just generate income "on the side", while they sleep or while they are away. It's a pipe dream. People create systems to follow them. And they buy systems to follow them. The systems lose money. The people lose money.

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 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Good post Mike.

It's not so much the cost of the courses/flashing lights that hurts people. It's the fact that they put money into these 'systems' that have no hope of working.

It is quite sad.

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 MWinfrey 
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Here guys...trade this. It works every time...

2011-10-18_1257 - MikeWinfrey's library

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 Jeff Castille 
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Here guys...trade this. It works every time...

2011-10-18_1257 - MikeWinfrey's library

Nice chart!

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 Fat Tails 
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MWinfrey View Post
Here guys...trade this. It works every time...

2011-10-18_1257 - MikeWinfrey's library

For my personal taste there is too much green and red, what about adding some blue or orange lines?

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 MWinfrey 
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I can do anything you want but the real question is....will I?

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 Cloudy 
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ezcolor's youtube channel:

southinkucantrade's Channel - YouTube




Saw the "that man from texas" here.


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 jungian 
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EZ Signal - Your Gateway to the Futures World! - Home


Hurry..rates go up Jan 1, 2012!!!

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 Cloudy 
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Looked over the site. It's got a nice makeover. There are also new optional indicators.
Looked over the FAQ.

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 tickvix 
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we should not make fun of Beth she is the one who is making money. Right...

Gregory

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 bluemele 
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tickvix View Post
we should not make fun of Beth she is the one who is making money. Right...

Gregory

Anyone can make money at anything. Fundamentally if you derive all self-worth off of 'making money' then it would be a very sad world in my opinion. Of course that is just my own judgement.

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 Lornz 
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"I’ve made EZ Color the ultimate solution to day trade Futures! Now you may be wondering if there’s a catch and how much will an EZ Color subscription cost you?

Considering the time I spent in learning Futures and get to where I am now, ie

15,000 hours x $10 (minimum hourly pay in most Canadian provinces) = $150,000
plus monetary investment I made

I could easily ask for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Of course I’m not going to charge you that. Why? It’s my every intention to make EZ Color accessible and affordable at any budget."


That is just too much!

Beth is probably nicest despicable vendor there is. Hey, at least she found a way to make money...

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 aquarian1 
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I like Beth.

She made a solid contribution the futures.io (formerly BMT) community and hundreds/thousands? of hours posting in her journal here.

I don't think much of people de-crying her making a business from all her time spent learning.
All the forum websites do the same (including futures.io (formerly BMT)).

I watched her youtube video


It was fine, honest. It was clear she didn't cherry pick it - well at least to me.

Perhaps her graphics and marketing on the website is not what I would do - but I'm sure she will learn more on that as well.

I think we should all be supportive and positive towards fellow and former futures.io (formerly BMT) and others who have contributed and help others as they made their path in life.

We all know trading isn't easy - and we are all here. None of us are millionaires from trading. (That I know of - and if you are and you are still here you may wish to examine your goals in life! ). Let your egos have a rest.

I consider everyone at futures.io (formerly BMT) still at school (and yes I include myself).
Perhaps Sharkey is the exception - and perhaps Gio as well (who has retired with his "bundle" ??)

----------
Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. or "Love others as I have loved you."

Would we wish are former "friends" of futures.io (formerly BMT) to arm-chair quarterback and poke fun if we move onto new endeavours?

-------
Let us support Beth and wish her well in her new endevour.

..........
peace, love and joy to you
.........
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 Lornz 
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I disagree. She seems like a nice person, but I have little respect for people selling something that does not work. I feel for the people that are wasting their hard-earned money on those systems.

I would find it strange if there weren't a few millionaires lurking around, there are certainly some who have "graduated". I'm not that familiar with this board, but people would be shocked by some of the lurkers at ET. At least back in the good ol' days...

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 Peter2150 
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Lornz View Post
I disagree. She seems like a nice person. I have little respect for people selling something that does not work, and I feel for the people that are wasting their hard-earned money on those systems.

I agree. If someone asked me I would say avoid her like the plague. If she learned so much her, she could trade for herself, and make lots of money without all the hassle she went thru to set up her site.

That she is selling the stuff she got her, just tells me she never really traded it that successfully, so she is selling it. Oh well.

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 Fat Tails 
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The Trading Universe is a jungle. You can feed on other traders by trading against them or by educating them. In the end it is a question at what you are better. Some traders also like to have a second leg besides trading. Running a website or a forum provides you with a lower, but stable income, which is not the case for trading.

So let me resume the facts:

(1) Beth is a nice person.

(2) She did not steal any indicators, but developed her own set of tools.

(3) She managed to set up a website and contracted some customers. She has something to teach, she is polite and takes care of her clients.

(4) I really do not know whether she is a good trader or whether her system works, because I have not spent the time to check it. I know that 90% of all systems sold via the internet do not make money and of course I have second thoughts, as I have always second thoughts.

(5) Some of the other members of Big Mike's are jealous, as they think that they are better traders than Beth, but these other members did not manage to set up a website.

So what?

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Fat Tails View Post
...I know that 90% of all systems sold via the internet do not make money and of course I have second thoughts, as I have always second thoughts.

Kinds of an hypothetical syllogism:

Socrate is a man.
A man is mortal.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

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 Lornz 
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Fat Tails View Post
The Trading Universe is a jungle. You can feed on other traders by trading against them or by educating them. In the end it is a question at what you are better. Some traders also like to have a second leg besides trading. Running a website or a forum provides you with a lower, but stable income, which is not the case for trading.

So let me resume the facts:

(1) Beth is a nice person.

(2) She did not steal any indicators, but developed her own set of tools.

(3) She managed to set up a website and contracted some customers. She has something to teach, she is polite and takes care of her clients.

(4) I really do not know whether she is a good trader or whether her system works, because I have not spent the time to check it. I know that 90% of all systems sold via the internet do not make money and of course I have second thoughts, as I have always second thoughts.

(5) Some of the other members of Big Mike's are jealous, as they think that they are better traders than Beth, but these other members did not manage to set up a website.

So what?

First of all, real traders have no need for secondary income. It is also possible to have stable income from trading.
That being said, someone might chose to do something on the side for fun. Who am I to judge how people spend their time?

For professional traders, this is more of a lifestyle than a job. I think it's difficult to excel if one doesn't really love it. It's hard to find time for social relations, much less setting running a business on the side.

I guess my problem is that I view it as fraud to sell something worthless to unsuspecting customers. I can't understand how these people can live with themselves. Everyday I see new posters asking about some obscure service, which surely only would lead them further astray from the path to consistent profitability. That bothers me on a fundamental level.

That being said, Beth seems like a nice person and I wish her all the best!

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 Rad4633 
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Lornz View Post
First of all, real traders have no need for secondary income. It is also possible to have stable income from trading.
That being said, someone might chose to do something on the side for fun. Who am I to judge how people spend their time?

For professional traders, this is more of a lifestyle than a job. I think it's difficult to excel if one doesn't really love it. It's hard to find time for social relations, much less setting running a business on the side.

I guess my problem is that I view it as fraud to sell something worthless to unsuspecting customers. I can't understand how these people can live with themselves. Everyday I see new posters asking about some obscure service, which surely only would lead them further astray from the path to consistent profitability. That bothers me on a fundamental level.

That being said, Beth seems like a nice person and I wish her all the best!

I'm new to trading sorta (2 yrs in) and new to futures.io (formerly BMT), this is the first REAL and only forum I ve ever joined. Glad to see REAL traders in here and I'm figuring out who is who very fast.

Lornz-I couldn't agree with your statement more! I have scarified alot of hrs to get to where I'm at experience wise, I have a ways to go to be where I want, but I'm steadfast!

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 aquarian1 
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Lornz View Post
I disagree. She seems like a nice person, but I have little respect for people selling something that does not work. I feel for the people that are wasting their hard-earned money on those systems.
...

Lornz,

How do you know it doesn't work it you haven't been a paid subscriber and given it a fair shot?

For example, Trade the Markets has a system and clients (as do other companies). Many people can benefit from others far in advance of their monthly fee $80, 150, $300. Whatever. They can shorten their learning curve and avoid beginner's mistakes.

Not everyone has the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc. Perhaps it is better that they start with someone who has.

---
As to the millionaires from trading if you tell me how much 35 profit points (on ES) a week starting with $10,000 initial cash, trading with contracts trading increasing each week on Monday, and
contracts traded= (cash *2/3 ) /contract margin
(the ES is $2,500 for initial margin day session),
then perhaps we talk discuss your speculation a little further.

..........
peace, love and joy to you
.........
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 Peter2150 
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I have a question for those who followed her closely? Did she ever trade live, profitably. From reading the end of her long thread I didn't get the impression she did. Am I right or wrong?

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 bluemele 
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Lornz View Post

I guess my problem is that I view it as fraud to sell something worthless to unsuspecting customers. I can't understand how these people can live with themselves. Everyday I see new posters asking about some obscure service, which surely only would lead them further astray from the path to consistent profitability. That bothers me on a fundamental level.

Amen, Bruddah.....

But, I think we just have a different set of core values and I find this world full of few people who share those...

Nothing wrong with developing something that 'could' work. For instance, Fat Tails has indicators he is planning to sell. To me, those are of value that you can add that to the tool belt. Value is added and created...

I reviewed Beth's 'deal' and to me it is misleading... Like 99.99999999% of all vendors... So, when you are dishonest and presenting a different image to sell something then to me it defies what I consider good core values.

It isn't an argument of 'the person spent time', 'the person contributed', 'the person is a sweetheart', as I believe them all to be invalid in the context of the issue.

Does the system work for Beth? NOOOOOOOO.

Does the system work for others? MAYBE, and I guess this is where it probably is not fare to cast judgement, but I can cast judgement on the snake oil marketing and sales approach.

I have yet to see a vendor make a sale by showing a financial statement. Except CTA's who obviously don't sell you a 'system' to trade on your own.

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 Lornz 
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aquarian1 View Post
Lornz,

How do you know it doesn't work it you haven't been a paid subscriber and given it a fair shot?

For example, Trade the Markets has a system and clients (as do other companies). Many people can benefit from others far in advance of their monthly fee $80, 150, $300. Whatever. They can shorten their learning curve and avoid beginner's mistakes.

Not everyone has the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc. Perhaps it is better that they start with someone who has.

---
As to the millionaires from trading if you tell me how much 35 profit points (on ES) a week starting with $10,000 initial cash, trading with contracts trading increasing each week on Monday, and
contracts traded= (cash *2/3 ) /contract margin
(the ES is $2,500 for initial margin day session),
then perhaps we talk discuss your speculation a little further.

You're right, I can't be certain. Her systems do not inspire confidence, though. They can't be too profitable, otherwise she wouldn't be selling them. I'm amazed at how few people get this. Only one profitable setup will make one a millionaire, as long as one is trading a liquid instrument. There is no way around it. The exception would be discretionary trading, where things get a little more fuzzy. The problem is that trading isn't all about psychology, it's about finding a valid approach. They don't grow on trees, and usually take a lot of effort to devise.

I treat trading as a business. If one doesn't have "the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc.", I would suggest they don't have the mindset required to become successful. However, it's more about strategic thinking than reading, but one needs a little theoretical knowledge in order to do that. I chose not to go to university after high school, but I made it a priority to go through most of the material on my own. I wanted to see the world as a finance graduate does, but I had no illusions of that making me money. Therefore I devoted most of my time to the latter. I assumed I would make as much money as the graduates would have incurred in student loans, and it turns out I was right. Now that I feel I have my trading under control, I have gone back to school to get a degree in mathematical finance. I study during the day, and trade at night.

I actually subscribed to TTMs video newsletters when I first started out. I liked Mr Carter's top-down summary of the trading day. They actually touch upon some useful subjects, at least at the time, such as tape reading, market internals and multiple time frames. There are some good ideas in his book, but he must not realize it himself. However, they make over $2MM/year on the site, so obviously they are more focused on that. I have no idea of what they are up to now, I used them briefly 5-6 years ago. I did pick up a few things that I researched further on my own, and I thank them for that. But unlike most, that helplessly search for what to do, I am more focused on how they (educators/commentators/etc) are wrong and how I can do it better.

-----
You don't mention the expected drawdown of the system, so it's hard to have an opinion. Personally, I prefer to use $5000 (or more) per ES contract, but I was more aggressive when I first started.
If one is consistently pulling in 35 points on the ES a week, then one should be making seven figures by year two.

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  #30 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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bluemele View Post
Amen, Bruddah.....

But, I think we just have a different set of core values and I find this world full of few people who share those...

Nothing wrong with developing something that 'could' work. For instance, Fat Tails has indicators he is planning to sell. To me, those are of value that you can add that to the tool belt. Value is added and created...

I reviewed Beth's 'deal' and to me it is misleading... Like 99.99999999% of all vendors... So, when you are dishonest and presenting a different image to sell something then to me it defies what I consider good core values.

It isn't an argument of 'the person spent time', 'the person contributed', 'the person is a sweetheart', as I believe them all to be invalid in the context of the issue.

Does the system work for Beth? NOOOOOOOO.

Does the system work for others? MAYBE, and I guess this is where it probably is not fare to cast judgement, but I can cast judgement on the snake oil marketing and sales approach.

I have yet to see a vendor make a sale by showing a financial statement. Except CTA's who obviously don't sell you a 'system' to trade on your own.

I hear ya! This is more about integrity than it is about trading. I am frequently disappointed by the lack of just that in the world. It's apparent everywhere, not even limited to the realm of financial gain. I find people stepping on others to inflate their own ego just as bad. I might be a little naive, but I believe it's wrong to exploit others for personal gain, regardless of the situation.

Now many are probably thinking: "Well, how come you are such an arrogant asshole (sometimes) then?".
A fair question, I guess. I have to admit that I am prone to polemics, but that actually serves a useful purpose. Fierce debate has always been instrumental in driving the world forward, it forces one to crystallize one's own ideas.
I always enjoy a verbal boxing match, but I would never try to exploits others ignorance!

That being said, there are helpful tools for sale. My problem lies more with the green = buy/red = sell, no effort required, get rich quick schemes out there.
Like you said, everything would be solved by providing account statements. There must be a reason none of them do?
--------
It seems most don't even bother to visit her site, so I'll copy and paste a few paragraphs:

"I started learning Futures in 2009. It’s almost a 24/7 profession and I’ve spent over 15,000 hours in this industry up until now. For example,

~ read hundreds of trading books
~ attended close to 100 webinars
~ watched hundreds of videos
~ tried close to 100 trading systems
~ experimented with hundreds of indicators

Having invested so much time in the Futures business, I was unable to come across a trading system that met my level and expectation. I started creating my own system in summer 2010
."

If that doesn't scream "I have no clue of what I'm talking about", then I don't know what does. 15, 000 hours in 3 years?

It gets worse:
"EZ Color is one of the simplest and most effective trading systems in the market …

All green/aqua Go Long
All red/magenta Go Short

~ Stay with the overall trend
~ No more guesswork
~ Precise and timely EZ signals
~ Minimal analysis when entry rules align
~ Built-in mechanism to protect capital and tighten stop
~ Above-average reward/risk ratio
~ Let your trade run
~ Accompany you from Start till End of a trade
~ Design to make your life easier"

This is the sort of marketing I really have a problem with. I don't know much, but I do know that this is not one of the "most effective trading systems in the market". Aside from that blatant lie, she also first states "No more guesswork", only to counter it with "Minimal analysis when entry rules align" a couple of lines further down.

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  #31 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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@ Lornz:

Either you take away OPM (other people's money) by trading against them, or you take OPM by selling them your system.

Most people just want to be entertained, and spending money for a colorful trading system is more entertaining than just depleting the trading account with a simple chart.

Traders are carnivores, and some like to play with their victims as the cats plays with mice before they kill them.

Pretending not to be a carnivore is just self-delusion.

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  #32 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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I disagree. Either you make money in the markets, or you stay away from trading. Trading has not only been about making money for me, it's been my whole life. It's both an art and a science: it's the ultimate game. One can tie in philosophy, psychology, math and what not, and get instant feedback on one's ideas. It's quite remarkable. To taint it by exploiting others, is something I will not partake in. I realize that the whole industry is geared towards that, though. There are very few "pure" traders in this world, but I take pride in being one of them.

I am as ruthless as the next guy when I'm trading, but I think it's in poor taste to feed people illusions about what is required to become successful.

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  #33 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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Lornz View Post
I disagree. Either you make money in the markets, or you stay away from trading. Trading has not only been about making money for me, it's been my whole life. It's both an art and a science: it's the ultimate game. One can tie in philosophy, psychology, math and what not, and get instant feedback on one's ideas. It's quite remarkable.

Trading has not been my life for a long time. But I fully agree, this is what attracts me to trading. It is a mirror of life, trading and life are both Ponzi - or let us say evolutionary - schemes. Trading has indeed reinforced my interest in philosophy, psychology and mathematics, not to forget about economics. It is a challenge by itself and leads you to an exploratory trip with lots of opportunities for testing what you have learned.


Lornz View Post
To taint it by exploiting others, is something I will not partake in. I realize that the whole industry is geared towards that, though. There are very few "pure" traders in this world, but I take pride in being one of them.

I am as ruthless as the next guy when I'm trading, but I think it's in poor taste to feed people illusions about what is required to become successful.

So you think that when you trade and take money from the markets, you are not exploiting others, just because you do it anonymously? As the pilot who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima just took pride in participating in a patriotic enterprise, as he did not see the broken eyes of those he killed?

The comparison is intentionally exaggerated, but war is another game. It is just that the target is not OPM (other people's money) but OPL (other people's lives). This is an ugly game as opposed to trading, but it follows a similar logic and similar rules.

And you pretend that it is better to take OPM without feeding their illusions? You are a missionary who wants others to follow the path of truth that you have chosen. You are protestant bastard (this is not meant as an insult) not understanding that illusions and entertainment are part of life, and that these illusions are required to recrute the new innocent traders who are willing to trade against you.

So don't pretend to be the honest guy who does not exploit others.

Of course you are, even if you hide behind your carefully constructed moral defense.

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  #34 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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Fat Tails View Post
Trading has not been my life for a long time. But I fully agree, this is what attracts me to trading. It is a mirror of life, trading and life are both Ponzi - or let us say evolutionary - schemes. Trading has indeed reinforced my interest in philosophy, psychology and mathematics, not to forget about economics. It is a challenge by itself and leads you to an exploratory trip with lots of opportunities for testing what you have learned.

Well put! By the way, I did not forget about economics, I just took it for granted...


Quoting 
So you think that when you trade and take money from the markets, you are not exploiting others, just because you do it anonymously? As the pilot who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima just took pride in participating in a patriotic enterprise, as he did not see the broken eyes of those he killed?

The comparison is intentionally exaggerated, but war is another game. It is just that the target is not OPM (other people's money) but OPL (other people's lives). This is an ugly game as opposed to trading, but it follows a similar logic and similar rules.

And you pretend that it is better to take OPM without feeding their illusions? You are a missionary who wants others to follow the path of truth that you have chosen. You are protestant bastard (this is not meant as an insult) not understanding that illusions and entertainment are part of life, and that these illusions are required to recrute the new innocent traders who are willing to trade against you.

So don't pretend to be the honest guy who does not exploit others.

Of course you are, even if you hide behind your carefully constructed moral defense.

I only empathize with people who are executing faulty systems based on lies from the vendor. That is completely different from taking money from other participants in the markets.

I'm not a missionary, I just don't like dishonesty. I fully understand that illusions and entertainment are parts of life, and people may spend their time and money however they please. My point was simply that I despise people that are selling things that don't work. This is something that I have a fundamental problem with. You may argue that everyone is responsible for their own decisions (even though free will does not exist), but that is beside the point. The point is that praying on the less resourceful is not something to be admired, and I can't understand why anyone would want to do it.

The tiny amount of capital these rotten services bring to the market is inconsequential. It makes no difference to me whether they trade or not. The money brought in by professionals is another story, though...

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  #35 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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Lornz View Post
...
It gets worse:
"EZ Color is one of the simplest and most effective trading systems in the market …

All green/aqua Go Long
All red/magenta Go Short

~ Stay with the overall trend
~ No more guesswork
~ Precise and timely EZ signals
~ Minimal analysis when entry rules align
~ Built-in mechanism to protect capital and tighten stop
~ Above-average reward/risk ratio
~ Let your trade run
~ Accompany you from Start till End of a trade
~ Design to make your life easier"

This is the sort of marketing I really have a problem with. I don't know much, but I do know that this is not one of the "most effective trading systems in the market". Aside from that blatant lie, she also first states "No more guesswork", only to counter it with "Minimal analysis when entry rules align" a couple of lines further down.

This has nothing to do with trading, it is about the capitalistic mindset. Change a couple of words in the advertising spiel above, and she could be selling a plant fertilizing method. We can be politically correct and say 'I have not tried the system, so I don;t know if it works', but anyone who has been on this site for a while, and has read her thread can hazard to guess if this is a worthwhile system or not. It's the capitalistic way, sell crap to suckers who are naive enough to buy it, and give them a discount for inviting their sucker friends.

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  #36 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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monpere View Post
This has nothing to do with trading, it is about the capitalistic mindset. Change a couple of words in the advertising spiel above, and she could be selling a plant fertilizing method. We can be politically correct and say 'I have not tried the system, so I don;t know if it works', but anyone who has been on this site for a while, and has read her thread can hazard to guess if this is a worthwhile system or not. It's the capitalistic way, sell crap to suckers who are naive enough to buy it, and give them a discount for inviting their sucker friends.

Exactly my point! I don't think peddling junk is something to be proud of. The world is built on that premise, though. I think it's quite sad; there is more to life than money.

It's more immoral to sell junk than it is to make money trading. Everyone that funds a trading account should be prepared to lose it all. But some poor old woman looking to buy a used car, should not be screwed over by some slick salesman. Not to mention the food industry. Nothing sickens me more than that. (literally )

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 Big Mike 
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  #38 (permalink)
 Private Banker 
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Wow, correct me if I'm wrong but that's a pretty myopic trading method. I would imagine one would get chopped up to oblivion. Big picture = 9 range? Hmmmm. I don't want to be entirely negative however, it's just that you need to be looking at the bigger picture to see where the OTF will step in to move the markets. Trading like this is like trying to navigate a globe while only looking through a microscope. You need to see the big picture to know where you could end up. This method does offer some good trading elements I guess but just needs to be refined a bit which is just my opinion of course.

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  #39 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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@FT,

I think the difference for me is that when people step into the trading ring that if they were not ambushed by people telling them they could make billions a week then most would realize the danger that they will actually be losing money and that they are entering a competition.

The challenging with marketing like this is that it 'inflates' the ego and confidence levels of the person giving them a foundation that is both false and ready to collapse within the next consolidation range.

The argument to me is that we are all killing each other by over-populating our current space ship and that will become more evident as we continue down the path. And, it has been our human nature to lie, cheat, steal our way to a better life because those persons who did that were the 'survivors' and passed those genes down....

I agree w/ Lornz in that if someone enters the competition, and you happen to be in that competition, then it isn't the same as 'coaching' someone to enter the competition because you got your ass kicked and telling them how easy it will be to WIN that event. Not the same, not even close...

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  #40 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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bluemele View Post
@FT,

I think the difference for me is that when people step into the trading ring that if they were not ambushed by people telling them they could make billions a week then most would realize the danger that they will actually be losing money and that they are entering a competition.

The challenging with marketing like this is that it 'inflates' the ego and confidence levels of the person giving them a foundation that is both false and ready to collapse within the next consolidation range.

The argument to me is that we are all killing each other by over-populating our current space ship and that will become more evident as we continue down the path. And, it has been our human nature to lie, cheat, steal our way to a better life because those persons who did that were the 'survivors' and passed those genes down....

I agree w/ Lornz in that if someone enters the competition, and you happen to be in that competition, then it isn't the same as 'coaching' someone to enter the competition because you got your ass kicked and telling them how easy it will be to WIN that event. Not the same, not even close...

There is a saying: "Those who can... do. Those who can't... teach". I have the utmost respect for teachers with a calling, but if you teach because you failed, then this saying certainly applies.

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  #41 (permalink)
 timefreedom 
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All one has to do is simply read her thread, right here at futures.io (formerly BMT). Anyone who reads that thread and then still wants to purchase trading information from her... I look forward to trading against.

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  #42 (permalink)
 tickvix 
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Very interesting posts about Beth and her products. The only questions continue to be open what are we trying to gain?
Are we posting to stop Beth from selling? Would not happen!!! Free Market she can do what ever she would like
Are we posting to stop people from going to her site and offering well intentioned advise? Would not happen people still are going to go and continue to buy and she will make money.
There are always going to be just one other hopeful trader in the market looking to buy just one more tool hopping that something would make them trade better.
In me view and I repeat in my view by creating separate tread about Beth and by going back to the same subject we are creating unnecessary publicity for her site.
By constantly debating benefits or harm of her services we are awaking peoples curiosity and driving them to at list to look at what she has to offer. We are creating some Free Advertising fore some one that we do not feel deserve any of our attention.
Speaking from my own personal curiosity factor I might just buy her service for one month just to satisfy my need to know. She is going to make one additions sales just before XMass,
In discussions as the one we have on hand there is not right or wrong answer. Every one who has posted express their opinions and everyone is right. But at the end Beth is going to continue doing what she is doing!!!

One other view on the subject of vendors.

Happy Holidays every one.

Gregory

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  #43 (permalink)
 monpere 
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tickvix View Post
Very interesting posts about Beth and her products. The only questions continue to be open what are we trying to gain?
Are we posting to stop Beth from selling? Would not happen!!! Free Market she can do what ever she would like
Are we posting to stop people from going to her site and offering well intentioned advise? Would not happen people still are going to go and continue to buy and she will make money.
There are always going to be just one other hopeful trader in the market looking to buy just one more tool hopping that something would make them trade better.
In me view and I repeat in my view by creating separate tread about Beth and by going back to the same subject we are creating unnecessary publicity for her site.
By constantly debating benefits or harm of her services we are awaking peoples curiosity and driving them to at list to look at what she has to offer. We are creating some Free Advertising fore some one that we do not feel deserve any of our attention.
Speaking from my own personal curiosity factor I might just buy her service for one month just to satisfy my need to know. She is going to make one additions sales just before XMass,
In discussions as the one we have on hand there is not right or wrong answer. Every one who has posted express their opinions and everyone is right. But at the end Beth is going to continue doing what she is doing!!!

One other view on the subject of vendors.

Happy Holidays every one.

Gregory

I want as many newbie traders to go to her site and buy her product. They are all traders who are going to put money in my pocket when they trade that system. So overall, it's a win-win for Beth and for us. Those who buy the system will be learning the hard lessons that we all learned when we started trading. Right or wrong, that seems to be the natural order of things in trading.

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  #44 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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tickvix View Post
Very interesting posts about Beth and her products. The only questions continue to be open what are we trying to gain?
Are we posting to stop Beth from selling? Would not happen!!! Free Market she can do what ever she would like
Are we posting to stop people from going to her site and offering well intentioned advise? Would not happen people still are going to go and continue to buy and she will make money.
There are always going to be just one other hopeful trader in the market looking to buy just one more tool hopping that something would make them trade better.
In me view and I repeat in my view by creating separate tread about Beth and by going back to the same subject we are creating unnecessary publicity for her site.
By constantly debating benefits or harm of her services we are awaking peoples curiosity and driving them to at list to look at what she has to offer. We are creating some Free Advertising fore some one that we do not feel deserve any of our attention.
Speaking from my own personal curiosity factor I might just buy her service for one month just to satisfy my need to know. She is going to make one additions sales just before XMass,
In discussions as the one we have on hand there is not right or wrong answer. Every one who has posted express their opinions and everyone is right. But at the end Beth is going to continue doing what she is doing!!!

One other view on the subject of vendors.

Happy Holidays every one.

Gregory

I would never intentionally choose to harm anyone financially or physically/mentally etc.. I wish the best for Beth, but I do not wish to encourage others to take the same path. There is a high road and a higher road (judgement...) and to me, I hope she does not do too many people financial harm.

Per your system and wanting to spend some Holiday cash. Good for you, but charities really need your funds to feed families who probably need the money a bit more than Beth. So, I hope you take that into consideration or have so much to where you can do all of it.

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  #45 (permalink)
 aquarian1 
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Lornz View Post
You're right, I can't be certain. Her systems do not inspire confidence, though. They can't be too profitable, otherwise she wouldn't be selling them. I'm amazed at how few people get this. Only one profitable setup will make one a millionaire, as long as one is trading a liquid instrument. There is no way around it. The exception would be discretionary trading, where things get a little more fuzzy. The problem is that trading isn't all about psychology, it's about finding a valid approach. They don't grow on trees, and usually take a lot of effort to devise.

Having very little capital for trading it really doesn't matter how good your system is.
(She not actually selling it - she's renting access to it. Selling it would be to sell all rights to the system and the investment she has made and the programming she paid for and her website and other startup costs)
-------------

I think we (here on the board) - all get it. (you'd be surprised).
And I agree with you, in general.


However, investment capital is a BIG factor in turning:
  • skill, and/or
  • knowledge and/or
  • a system and/or
  • inicators
into millions.

------------------
You are better off sharing it and building up some income from your monthly rentals until you have enough capital to trade with decent stops and ride out any heat in a trade.
So until she has share it long enough to build up:
$100,000 in trading capital
and
$5,000 /mo of monthly income
(these numbers as an example only), she is wiser to share it.



Lornz View Post
I treat trading as a business. If one doesn't have "the time and inclination to wade through forums, and books etc.", I would suggest they don't have the mindset required to become successful. However, it's more about strategic thinking than reading, but one needs a little theoretical knowledge in order to do that. I chose not to go to university after high school, but I made it a priority to go through most of the material on my own. I wanted to see the world as a finance graduate does, but I had no illusions of that making me money. Therefore I devoted most of my time to the latter. I assumed I would make as much money as the graduates would have incurred in student loans, and it turns out I was right. Now that I feel I have my trading under control, I have gone back to school to get a degree in mathematical finance. I study during the day, and trade at night.

You are digressing into philosophy.
I agree with your statement generally - for some people (very small number.)

(Lornz, you are extrapolating what is "right" for you into what is "right" for others. Imposing your view of "what is right for me is right for eveyone" this mental re-framing of the world hurts you, IMHO. )

My schedule is: I get up, I work (on my systems/study/trading) and I go to sleep. Then rinse and repeat.
It is utterly riduculous from any sort of balanced life - but it is what I must do ()I feel to overcome the enormous odds against me.

However in a realistic sense, most people can't apply this discipline.

And certainly
not long enough to reach the pay-off zone.



From Dr. Gary's seminar:
  • the great pain of losing and then losing again and then losing again.
  • Lance Armstrong "I can suffer like no-one else can suffer."
  • Olympic skaters difference = They practised the really difficult moves, feel got hurt, did it again and again iced their bruises after practice, and got up at 4am and did it all over again for years and years and years.
  • 4-5hrs a day of really deep practise not just being on the sim but thinking - what is happening, why, taking notes, seeing what worked and didn't, analyzing the set-ups and then doing it all over again for 4 (?) or more years.
---------------------

If someone is retired - their home is paid for, they have more than enough retirement income, they have a balanced conservative portfolio (whatever that means in today's age) managed by an honest dedicated money management professional who truly cares about their responsibility (tougher that finding an honest mechanic you say? - I agree) and they want a pastime that is fun lively and more challenging than a crossword --

then

they could day trade.

For example, my mom is a bright woman.
She is up-to-date on what is happening finacially, economically, and with businesses - especially in the province where she lives. Being part Irish, she's a bit of a gambler in her heart.
She likes to have her "play" money. (I cringe when I her her say that!)
She used to lose about $30,000 -to $40,000 per year buying tech stocks especially if they are mentioned on CBC, in Canada, and even more so Quebec-based (she's a real "flag-waver").
It was brutal to watch. Ever year she had to top up her "play account" with another $40,000. Finally, I gave up and said:
"look if you're going to gamble just go to Vegas with Aunt J, take $5,000 gambling money, have fun take in the shows and go to the restaurants and it doesn't matter it you lose it all."

So for my mom and others like her:
  • having the fun of red lights, green lights
  • a set stop of $50 some days losing $50,
  • some days making $50 or $60 and
  • occasionally making $500 -she would be trilled.
She would be ecstatic!



She could chat with her friends on the phone - gush talker lingo and feel "with it"

(I'm assuming a daily total loss limit of say $75 and a "play" account (cringe!) of $20,000)


--0ook wayyyy too much typing for a weekend -- I need to focus and get my old XP going again - I hate this Windows 7 - crappy take for laptop..

lots more but actually do the math on the exercise Lornz - I have. You will find it worth your time - well worth your time...

The Main Point
  • Don't get into being negative and calling other people down.
  • Life is tough. And for many people very tough.
  • Focus on the good the light and the positive.
  • Look for the best in others and spread good positive energy in the world.
  • Try to make someone else's life better and brighter.
  • Spread kindness love and compassion.
  • See the good in others.
  • Overlook their weaknesses.
  • Judge not.
............I'm a slow typer so if you only read and benefit from the main point and take it into your heart it will enrich your life and those in your life.
(and no I'm not saying that you don't already do some of these things - just suggesting to you and reminding myself and to others, to place more focus on doing these things more often and with more depth of love and attention )--------------

have a nice weekend eveyone!



Lornz View Post
I actually subscribed to TTMs video newsletters when I first started out. I liked Mr Carter's top-down summary of the trading day. They actually touch upon some useful subjects, at least at the time, such as tape reading, market internals and multiple time frames. There are some good ideas in his book, but he must not realize it himself. However, they make over $2MM/year on the site, so obviously they are more focused on that. I have no idea of what they are up to now, I used them briefly 5-6 years ago. I did pick up a few things that I researched further on my own, and I thank them for that. But unlike most, that helplessly search for what to do, I am more focused on how they (educators/commentators/etc) are wrong and how I can do it better.

-----
You don't mention the expected drawdown of the system,
---------none. it is 35 pts avearge profit per week so a drawdowns during the week are netted out and you end the week and every week up 35 points ---

so it's hard to have an opinion. Personally, I prefer to use $5000 (or more) per ES contract, but I was more aggressive when I first started.
If one is consistently pulling in 35 points on the ES a week, then one should be making seven figures by year two.


..........
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  #46 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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aquarian1 View Post
Having very little capital for trading it really doesn't matter how good your system is.
(She not actually selling it - she's renting access to it. Selling it would be to sell all rights to the system and the investment she has made and the programming she paid for and her website and other startup costs)
-------------
[...]are better off sharing it and building up some income from your monthly rentals until you have enough capital to trade with decent stops and ride out any heat in a trade.
So until she has share it long enough to build up:
$100,000 in trading capital
and
$5,000 /mo of monthly income
(these numbers as an example only), she is wiser to share it.

If a system really works, then raising capital is not a problem. One could take out a loan, contact local investors or try one's luck on online trading fora. One could argue, of course, that it's actually safer to set up a site directed at beginning traders, and have 1000 unsophisticated subscribers, than it would be explaining the system in detail to professional investors. I did not have much capital when I started trading. I actually maxed out my credit cards to buy my first block of shares. It's not something I would recommend, but it worked for me. I had done a lot research before I started, though.

Judging by Beth's thread on this forum, I can't imagine she suddenly learned how to trade. I just hope she doesn't ruin any lives. NFT is a prime example of that...


Quoting 
You are digressing into philosophy.

I agree with your statement generally - for some people (very small number.)

(Lornz, you are extrapolating what is "right" for you into what is "right" for others. Imposing your view of "what is right for me is right for eveyone" this mental re-framing of the world hurts you, IMHO. )

My schedule is: I get up, I work (on my systems/study/trading) and I go to sleep. Then rinse and repeat.
It is utterly riduculous from any sort of balanced life - but it is what I must do ()I feel to overcome the enormous odds against me.

However in a realistic sense, most people can't apply this discipline.

And certainly
not long enough to reach the pay-off zone.

I actually think philosophy is quite relevant. It has been instrumental to my trading success. I can agree that not all are suited for that kind of approach. I never advocated anyone to follow my path, I just stated what I have done. The few successful traders I have met have all been intelligent, well-read skeptics. I am also aware of scalping/momentum-/order flow trading kids right out of high school. That is more of a gift than something learned, though.

I have not met anyone truly successful that did not devote their entire lives (at least for a period time) to trading. It's something one needs to eat, sleep and breathe, I think. It's more of a lifestyle than a hobby.

If people, like your mother, wants to use the markets as entertainment, then who am I to judge?
But, as this is a trading forum, I am sure most people want to learn how to make money -- not just lose it at a slower pace.



Quoting 
lots more but actually do the math on the exercise Lornz - I have. You will find it worth your time - well worth your time...

I know

In fact, it was one of the first thing I did when I started trading. I have always focused on building a system capable of sustaining a large number of contracts. Most people don't understand the power of compounding, but my whole trading is based on it. I also started scalping to be able to scale up faster, but that's another story.

You didn't really answer my question. It matters if you have a drawdown of 50 points intraweek, even if the end result is net +35. It affects the position sizing algorithm.

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  #47 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Good posts and debate issues. I'm leaning more on the side of Lornz' sentiment. I had stumbled on EZ color trading earlier this year before I joined this site having frequented ET previously. I had almost considered giving it a try and was put off at the high prices for renting indicators when I knew that there great indicators already free on NT support forum and soon after on futures.io (formerly BMT). Then I read wgreenie's thread and discovered to my surprise it was the same lady that did the free NT hosted webinar I attended. I was sick to my stomach and couldn't help but feel some anger. Sure she had gone through a newcomer trial as we all do sifting through scam systems, newletters, services, and education or at best finding a tidbit here and there and finding a system that works or coming up with one having borrowed elements from others. She also had a lot of great help and advice from some of the best and friendly contributors on futures.io (formerly BMT). We've all lost money getting the hard earned experience either by losing trades, mistakes, and subscribing to services, systems that don't work. (see the "confess" sticky thread). I would think the end goal as an aspiring retail trader, is to learn to make money off the markets consistently and also make back the capital lost by trading.

I would agree Beth has every right to run her trading education/indicator business. I'm for free market capitalism (Kudlow). However there should also be review sites and oversight organizations such as the BBB to help inform potential customers. I think this review thread is useful in that others can either come away with an opinion either warned or interested to try what ezcolortrading has to offer. Personally I would rather not rent an expensive indicator without some trading record or reputation and so far imo her original thread on futures.io (formerly BMT), and the site's literature and faq does not inspire confidence for a seasoned student trader. Anyways, it may be possible a crafty trader could make use of the indicators their own way if the rental cost is acceptable; the indicators do look nice and visually pleasing.

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  #48 (permalink)
 Linds 
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Well, fascinating really.

I now dont know about this assessment of 'niceness'. The web persona was 'nice' and it elicited a lot of support based on apparent struggle and distress.

We all know that the presentation of 'easy' trading systems ultimatley ends up with 2 main things for niave customers - loss of money and loss of time; Sometimes huge amounts of both. Vendors also know this - this is the part that pisses me off. This is a misleading act that has real personals costs, personal costs that run a business.

Sure, capitalism easily takes the amoral line - and Fattails has demonstrated this argument nicely in this thread. He is able to hold onto the ideas that vendors are selling dreams without basis and that that vendor cannot be judged on a moral basis simultaneously. I cant do that very well although I understand that it is the reality of trading education. It never ceases to amaze me the level of deception occurring out there and how many people are willing to engage with it.

I dont agree with FT's view that there is a moral equivalence between trading and the actions of a misleading vendor - interesting to unpack that one further though. Maybe we are all morally corrupt but I would not like to think so

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  #49 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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Linds View Post
Sure, capitalism easily takes the amoral line - and Fat Tails has demonstrated this argument nicely in this thread. He is able to hold onto the ideas that vendors are selling dreams without basis and that that vendor cannot be judged on a moral basis simultaneously. I cant do that very well although I understand that it is the reality of trading education. It never ceases to amaze me the level of deception occurring out there and how many people are willing to engage with it.

I dont agree with FT's view that there is a moral equivalence between trading and the actions of a misleading vendor - interesting to unpack that one further though. Maybe we are all morally corrupt but I would not like to think so

I did not say that there is equivalence between trading and the action of a vendor, who is misleading clients on purpose.

I assumed that most vendors - and this does certainly include Beth - do think that they have to sell something of value. I also assumed that most vendors - and also most of traders - suffer from self-delusion. So either

(1) you love to help people with their trading adventure and sell them some tools that they do not need and cannot use,

(2) or you engage in glorious battles as a trader, not willing to see that you take the money from somebody else.

The whole business is more or less degenerated into a branch of the gambling and entertainment industry. Or do you see any other value added than illusions and entertainment?

Do you really believe that you are a liquidity provider, if you open a retail FOREX account?

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  #50 (permalink)
 sharky 
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i have to agree with linds on this one even though most of the time i agree with the way fat tails looks at life.it would be different if wgreenie could trade herself,how can you be a trading educator and sell a system when you have no clue what the market is,i understand she was here asking alot of questions but it takes more than a year to learn anything at all about trading.even after 10 years i hardly understand anything about the markets,everyday i run into stuff that i didnt have a clue about the day before.im ashamed that i helped her at all if i knew she would take everything we taught her to go scamm old people i would not had spent one min. helping her...sharky

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  #51 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Also, with regards to vendors, I think a distinction to the products they sell need to be made. There are vendors that sell tools, and those that sell 'the dream.'

Take @RJay for example, or @richbois from TTT. They are vendors, but they aren't selling you 'the dream,' or the promise that they can turn you profitable. They simply sell you tools, and even let you try them out first for free. They aren't telling you they can teach you how to trade their discretionary system, but rather just telling you, "Hey, here are some tools I have developed, and I would like to be compensated for my time to create them, see if YOU find value in them before purchassing." To create a tool, one doesn't have to be a seasoned trader, it only requires some no-how to create the tool. Wether or not its worth purchasing is up to the customer to decide.

Then there are the vendors that tell you that they can help you turn your trading around after 15 years of failure. These are the sellers of 'methodologies.' Which I generally think is BS, they are selling you the dream. It would be interesting to see some type of thoroughly audited results of customers of these vendors. I'd be willing to bet, they've really helped no one, but rather just line their pockets with fees and subs for years, while these people they portend to teach really are in the same trading scenario when they first signed up.

The first set, the guys that just sell tools...... I think its an honest business. It's up to us as customers to decide if we see value in the tools. The tool "is-what-it-is." Either it helps you or it doesn't.

The other set of guys, simply are showing you how to organize a group of indicators on a chart. Also trying to teach a bunch of non-discrete signals based on half-guesses and subjective nonsense. Also, you don't REALLY know who these people are. You don't know if they are actual traders or not. There is never any type of audited performance, track records, live demonstrations of trading skill...... basically these vendors are saying, "TRUST ME, I am a real trader, I am not interested in proving it, but I have a website with trades listed, so I must be FOR-REAL right?"

In this day and age, it's too easy to provide customers with verifiable proof of trading ability, but that doesn't really happen. After all, why would a vendor do that and open himself up to critiscizm or scrutiny when he could just continue to get subscribers with a good sales pitch and a nice looking website?

Just a note, I'm sure there are 'some' vendors out there that really have something of value to provide. I have yet to pay for some trading methodology that I couldn't find somewhere else for free. Any indicator that one of these sellers of any given methodology provides are also pretty useless as well. Typically requiring the user to FILTER the signals anyway, at which point invalidates the system if YOU have to filter those signals..... that essentially makes it as useful as any MA x-over system.

BUT, with all the above said......... in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is that the customer feels like he is getting something of value. So if that need is met, no big problems really.

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  #52 (permalink)
 sharky 
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i wish rjay would create a red light green light and give it to us for free,lol just kidding rjay i like your stuff...sharky

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  #53 (permalink)
 aquarian1 
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Cloudy View Post
Good posts and debate issues. I'm leaning more on the side of Lornz' sentiment. I had stumbled on EZ color trading earlier this year before I joined this site having frequented ET previously. I had almost considered giving it a try and was put off at the high prices for renting indicators when I knew that there great indicators already free on NT support forum and soon after on futures.io (formerly BMT). Then I read wgreenie's thread and discovered to my surprise it was the same lady that did the free NT hosted webinar I attended. I was sick to my stomach and couldn't help but feel some anger.

well that's unfortunate

.

Hi Cloudy,

I don't know if Beth's system is very, very good, or good, or medium or poor.
I haven't tried it.
Unless a person has tried it they shouldn't voice an opinion on how well it works - or doesn't work.

I do know that it is defamation of character and subject to liable suit to say derogatary statements about someone, their product or business without substantion.

Fictious example:

Prosecuting attorney = P Defandent=D

P: "So you made statements that the product didn't work about the company products in a public forum geared to investors with a 20,000 membership and viewable by the Internet community at large via search engines etc reaching a potential audience of many thousands."
D: "yes"

P: "And what tests or trials did you make of this product?"
D: "None."

P:"And what basis of evidence did you have to make this defamatory claim, for did you do back-testing?, forward testing, any sort of testing?"
D:"No"

P:"Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your statement that "It doesn't work."?
D: "No"

P:"how do you know that it doesn't work perhaps even very well?"
D: "I don't."

P: "And do you realize that your statements that you have made without basis could cause material and substantial lost income to the company?"
D: "Well, I gues so."

P: "Did you at any time retract or apoligize for your damaging public statements?"
D: "No"

-----------
I know that in the suit of Hunter Dickson Group (a mining group) against poster at the Raging Bull they received damages of $200,000 per poster. You are not anonymous. You cannot make statements about someone or thier business without being open to potential lawsuits.
---------------

But this is not about this.
This is about people making negative comments about Beth system where they are in no position (no position of information) to do so. They wouldn't dare make the comments if they didn't know her from the board.

She has already shifted most of the indicators on the board and she has tried them.
She has made her own. She didn't steal any.

If you simply consider all that work as research then you can see that her products most likely have a better chance that the average ones (indicators for rent) than the others who are marketed by people who haven't been through the ropes and tried as many as she has.

All the indicators on the board are available for your use for free.
All the indicators at Ninja's board (there are lots!) are available for free.

Getting an indicator for free doen't mean you will start a money printing press tomorrow.

You may have been well to try her system.

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  #54 (permalink)
 aquarian1 
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I have great respect for Fat Tails' programming ability.
He has been acknowledge by futures.io (formerly BMT) for his excellence and received awards for programming.

I also have great respect for his honesty.

If he says that Beth did not steal any indicators then
I consider that to be truth of the matter.

-----------
Claiming someone is a theft is a VERY SERIOUS charge.

If definitely shouldn't be made in public and CERTAINLY not without very solid foundation.

Furhermore, it is a nasty ugly thing to do say someone is a thief without basis.

------------
I am glad some "enjoyed the debate".
I am not here (posting in this thread) for a debate.
There in no joy for me in making this posts.

It is destructive to my calm and a unnecessary waste of my time.

I am only posting here to defend a friend.

If I didn't know Beth from the forum and these people weren't posting about a friend I wouldn't waste the time.

I feel loyalty is a very important quality of character
--------------------

(all Beth's friends should make a post and outweigh all the trashing that has been done to her IMHO)

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  #55 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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I am glad you cleared the air....

I figured in a week or two we would be seeing 'vendor' next to your name for your new 'buy now and get rich in 72 hours' website.

Defending a friend is a great character trait! Admirable! But, she can also defend herself and show her system to be profitable or NOT...

It is none of our business really, but I think we are debating the moral landscape more than we are BETH. Beth just happens to be an example...

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  #56 (permalink)
 aquarian1 
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bluemele View Post
I am glad you cleared the air....
(I guess you are taking a jab at me and that is fine.)

I figured in a week or two we would be seeing 'vendor' next to your name for your new 'buy now and get rich in 72 hours' website.
(Believe it or not I am too busy trying to complete my trading system and overcome computer issues. I actually posted here for exactly the reason I said. (I sad you feel that it was for pre-marketing. Perhaps that is your view of yourself being projected on others?)
I hate "debates". I hate wasted time. I certainly would not have spent the time on this thread unless I felt it was necessary. I have no wish to convert someone.

Defending a friend is a great character trait! Admirable! But, she can also defend herself and show her system to be profitable or NOT...
She offers a trail period.
She has testimonials posted

It is none of our business really, but I think we are debating the moral landscape more than we are BETH. Beth just happens to be an example...

Hi mele,

Thanks.

Yes you are absolutely correct that she can defend herself and she has wisely chosen not to be in this to and fro - from which I to intend to exit.

Certainly you are correct in that the moral landscape is at issue but the title of this thread is
"EZ Color Trading - Article - wgreenie " so it is definitely about Beth. However, they did not chose to attack Multicharts, TTM, etc - nor would they.

If people want to discuss the value of indicators generally then they need to do so in a separate thread.

"Why I believe all indicators don't work -except those written by Swedes selling butter."
"Should you rent access to an indicator-based trading system? or is it cod liver oil?"

otherwise they are off-topic.

That is the whole point about being off-topic -
so expressing a personal philosophy that all indicators that are available cannot be worth anything or the person would trade it themselves and be a gazillionaire -
is off-topic.

I haven't seen a single review posted by anyone who has tried her system and that is the whole point of the vendor review section - not general pontification or debate.

hasta la vista

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  #57 (permalink)
 MWinfrey 
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aquarian1 View Post
I haven't seen a single review posted by anyone who has tried her system ...

Maybe that's because people who have been participating in this forum for a while know Beth's journey that she detailed daily in her journal on this forum. By the way, that journal is a very good documentation of the trials of a struggling trader. Unfortunately from a trading perspective there is no happy ending where Beth is "making her millions" and is now offering her trading success to others as a subscription. I guess the success could've come in the very short time between her last post in journal and the time she sold her first EZColor subscription but I have a hard time believing that. I know Beth a bit outside this forum and find her to be as likeable as others have stated. However, assuming her journal is an accurate account of her trading skills there is no way I would invest in a subscription to her system and that is probably where most people reading this vendor review are as well. Notice I used "probably" and "most". Obviously I don't know everyone nor do I know most who participate in futures.io (formerly BMT) hence the use of probably and most. Don't want someone to say that I'm being black and white making a comment about something I can't substantiate. Anyway, I know someone will find fault with what I present but the documentation of who Beth is and what her trading skills are can be found in great detail in . Read it for yourself and then see if you want to take a chance on her trading system.

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  #58 (permalink)
kk240
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Is this how you folks are preparering x-mas spirit.
Beth is one of the smallest vendor in this industry, and Crooks are more lucrative sector.
If Beth is not selling methods for grandmams, there is trillions other vendors which will do it.
Its amazing how much attentation Beth gets, its like shooting a flea with desert eagle.
I hope we are soon back to regular days and people can trade rather than write this nonsense,Inlcuding me.
Poisoning minds with negative thoughts will not help anybody, I think in trading is important have positive attitude and feelings.

If you really want see how some are trying to sell dreams look Dukascopys web siten where they have videos of trader of the month and year. They have parties nice chicks, cars, champange etc.....
TV :: Dukascopy Bank SA | Swiss Forex Bank | ECN Broker | Managed accounts | Swiss FX trading platform


I wish nice holidays.

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  #59 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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kk240 View Post
Is this how you folks are preparering x-mas spirit.
Beth is one of the smallest vendor in this industry, and Crooks are more lucrative sector.
If Beth is not selling methods for grandmams, there is trillions other vendors which will do it.
Its amazing how much attentation Beth gets, its like shooting a flea with desert eagle.
I hope we are soon back to regular days and people can trade rather than write this nonsense,Inlcuding me.
Poisoning minds with negative thoughts will not help anybody, I think in trading is important have positive attitude and feelings.

If you really want see how some are trying to sell dreams look Dukascopys web siten where they have videos of trader of the month and year. They have parties nice chicks, cars, champange etc.....
TV :: Dukascopy Bank SA | Swiss Forex Bank | ECN Broker | Managed accounts | Swiss FX trading platform


I wish nice holidays.


bluemele View Post

It is none of our business really, but I think we are debating the moral landscape more than we are BETH. Beth just happens to be an example...

@kk240, I think you are missing the point of most posters as I think most posting about this are not posting specifically about Beth.

You are right. It is negativity, but that attitude also hurts people IN THIS INDUSTRY.

Well, I only robbed one bank, and it is the Holiday Season, it didn't hurt anyone except the tax payers (everyone) and the bank tellers (who now have serious mental issues with guns, working at a bank, etc..).

To me it is a much larger ethical discussion that we have debated oh so often. I didn't turn in my old mentor when I knew I should have because my wife told me that it wasn't our place. Whistle-blowers or poor ethics need to shout loud and clear on what is real and what is smoke-n-mirrors.

Until it is acceptable to call ourselves into line, then we will continue to have serious issues with our society.

Sorry for taking up this valuable space for the marketing and sales of Beth. What will Kris Kringle think of me now...?

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  #60 (permalink)
kk240
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I am not missing the point. This thread is under Beth method. why not change thread name.
And I understand all moral and ethical issues about vendors and they dreams and junk what they sell and promising something which are most cases immpossible to achieve, its like tv-shops which are selling muscles for home daddies and mammies.

We can't chage how human psychology works, greed,vainglory etc. here are forever fools who think it will easy create money.


"Nice and honest" people are dangerous, because they think they can teach.



bluemele View Post
@ kk240, I think you are missing the point of most posters as I think most posting about this are not posting specifically about Beth.


You are right. It is negativity, but that attitude also hurts people IN THIS INDUSTRY.

Well, I only robbed one bank, and it is the Holiday Season, it didn't hurt anyone except the tax payers (everyone) and the bank tellers (who now have serious mental issues with guns, working at a bank, etc..).

To me it is a much larger ethical discussion that we have debated oh so often. I didn't turn in my old mentor when I knew I should have because my wife told me that it wasn't our place. Whistle-blowers or poor ethics need to shout loud and clear on what is real and what is smoke-n-mirrors.

Until it is acceptable to call ourselves into line, then we will continue to have serious issues with our society.

Sorry for taking up this valuable space for the marketing and sales of Beth. What will Kris Kringle think of me now...?


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 Big Mike 
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 aquarian1 
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MWinfrey View Post
Maybe that's because people who have been participating in this forum for a while know Beth's journey that she detailed daily in her journal on this forum. By the way, that journal is a very good documentation of the trials of a struggling trader. Unfortunately from a trading perspective there is no happy ending where Beth is "making her millions" and is now offering her trading success to others as a subscription. I guess the success could've come in the very short time between her last post in journal and the time she sold her first EZColor subscription but I have a hard time believing that. I know Beth a bit outside this forum and find her to be as likeable as others have stated. However, assuming her journal is an accurate account of her trading skills there is no way I would invest in a subscription to her system and that is probably where most people reading this vendor review are as well. Notice I used "probably" and "most". Obviously I don't know everyone nor do I know most who participate in futures.io (formerly BMT) hence the use of probably and most. Don't want someone to say that I'm being black and white making a comment about something I can't substantiate. Anyway, I know someone will find fault with what I present but the documentation of who Beth is and what her trading skills are can be found in great detail in . Read it for yourself and then see if you want to take a chance on her trading system.

Gosh Mike W!

I'm shaking my head here - I can't even believe you even made the post above.

This is supposed to be about the EZcolor system -reviews by people who have tried it.

I have read her journal. I used to read it at the end of a long day of working on my system, as did countless others, to relax and find out what she was up to. (It probably has the greatest number of views of any journal ever written on this board - guess a wild guess OMP).

No one is implying that she is a millionaire - you are smarter than that.
The title of the journal when she started out was her goal at the time.
The title of her journal has no relevance on the merits of EZcolor.

..........
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 MWinfrey 
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aquarian1 View Post
Gosh Mike W!

I'm shaking my head here - I can't even believe you even made the post above.

This is supposed to be about the EZcolor system -reviews by people who have tried it.

I have read her journal. I used to read it at the end of a long day of working on my system, as did countless others, to relax and find out what she was up to. (It probably has the greatest number of views of any journal ever written on this board - guess a wild guess OMP).

No one is implying that she is a millionaire - you are smarter than that.
The title of the journal when she started out was her goal at the time.
The title of her journal has no relevance on the merits of EZcolor.

good grief...read the content and understand the point i was making and not focus on the use of the word million. that was her word not MINE....again good grief. i'm done...this is absolutely ridiculous.

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 sharky 
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im with you mike,lmao i only read this thread for something to smile about anyways.well i will wait for the next person to come to bmt and leave a pro and become a teacher for profit and then we can do another thread like this again,hehe...sharky

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 Anagami 
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In the interest of keeping this civil, I will only say that it is not unusual for a losing trader to become a 'trading mentor', vendor, seller of systems, indicators...etc. When you don't make money in the market, you look for other avenues. I feel sorry for the people who buy into those things, and even more sorry for people who sell them... they have neither shame nor integrity.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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 Peter2150 
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The thing here is this a unique situation here, in terms of "trying" it before commenting

We've all bought, and tried stuff on the market. Is there anyone here who would seriously consider even trying something if the site said, I can't trade successfully, and couldn't make money with my stuff, but maybe you can so pay me and give it a try. I doubt it seriously

So we go to a site, and some of them we either can't take seriously or they are so pricey we don't even think about giving them a try, but in all cases they try and convince us that they are unique, profitably trading their stuff, and worth us giving them our money.

If I look at a site, and it gets my interest, I don't know if they are doing what they say, so I make a value judgement. Is it worth the cost of trying the product worth it, if it turns out to be junk. Another words do I mind throwing away their asking price to satisfy my curiosity as to whether they are really doing what they claim.

But here is where Beth's site is unique for us. If you go to her site, you have the glowing words, that could make you think wow. But then we also have her thread here, and that is the problem. I see her site, and the read the thread here, and don't see she ever traded profitably. So why would I even consider giving her money to try her system.

This isn't a problem with the naysayers here, but the way she went about setting herself up. That wasn't a good business move. She should have done it so we couldn't identify her. That also creates problems. Ideally, she should have found something she could trade profitably, trade it to build a track record, and then sell it if she wanted. Oh well.

Pete

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 Cloudy 
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Peter2150 View Post
.. But then we also have her thread here, and that is the problem. I see her site, and the read the thread here, and don't see she ever traded profitably. So why would I even consider giving her money to try her system.

What Pete said. I'm glad I saw the millions thread and it helped me decide about EZ. And thanks to Mr. Tolkien(jungian) and others that brought up the articles , started this thread, and new developments on the EZ site. Good to be informed based on available information.

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 bluemele 
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The thing that bothers me is that she references her experiences on this forum to add credibility. To me, that was why I was probably a bit frustrated. I started reading her journal too, long before I signed up. I appreciate any learning I achieved through that thread among the 1000 others I was reading also.

But like Big Mike said, I think we beat a dead horse and nobody is going to win this battle here at least and it will just create more negativity.

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 Cloudy 
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Re: negativity. I did not imply nor say wgreenie stole indicators from futures.io (formerly BMT). All I said was my reaction on reading the "millions" thread and the posts here which btw this thread and links to articles I did not start or post. I am just VERY GLAD I was warned away by others' information here away from ezcolor. Then this absurd "fictitious" blurb about slander related to what I said. I have a right to say on this forum my reaction to what I saw and my misgivings about having to rent indicators at a relatively high price from a student trader who based on her journal thread did not achieve consistent profitability nor stick to a set of indicators nor achieve the psychological trading skillsets necessary to succeed even at scalping the futures markets. Yes, I just joined futures.io (formerly BMT) just this past summer, but I've learned since then to reach a degree of consistency and not just based on indicators thanks to very helpful threads and sharing by consistent traders here. I did not just keep skipping to the next set of indicators.

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 emini_Holy_Grail 
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I second Fat Tail's opinion.
I know Beth very well and one of the decent persons you can find here.
It is not about getting some indicators from somewhere but how you make your final setup, which is her own.


Fat Tails View Post
The Trading Universe is a jungle. You can feed on other traders by trading against them or by educating them. In the end it is a question at what you are better. Some traders also like to have a second leg besides trading. Running a website or a forum provides you with a lower, but stable income, which is not the case for trading.

So let me resume the facts:

(1) Beth is a nice person.

(2) She did not steal any indicators, but developed her own set of tools.

(3) She managed to set up a website and contracted some customers. She has something to teach, she is polite and takes care of her clients.

(4) I really do not know whether she is a good trader or whether her system works, because I have not spent the time to check it. I know that 90% of all systems sold via the internet do not make money and of course I have second thoughts, as I have always second thoughts.

(5) Some of the other members of Big Mike's are jealous, as they think that they are better traders than Beth, but these other members did not manage to set up a website.

So what?


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 Cloudy 
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Maybe you're right. Beth did accomplish a new vendor site and has customers. I would have liked to do something similar starting a site maybe related to another type of business. It would test my conscience if I started a site selling indicators when I know I hadn't traded successfully nor have ever did with them. But it's an accomplishment to start a successful business where 80% fail today.

I had worked as phone tech support for a set of products which one of its core components I knew were made with cheap dubious quality control, or at worst knew they were 2nd hand 1st testing trial factory rejects but would maybe last a year before it was assumed the customer would buy an upgraded model anyways or call for a replacement. All of us who worked at the place knew it, and we were all a party to it still. Today's business climate is severely desperate for any industry. And as a trader today, I have to live with knowing I'm still doing an endeavor considered gambling by the majority of the public and even my relatives. And even if percentage wise I'm not really making profits off of newbie traders, I'm still riding the coattails of, and trying to pick up money left on the table for a small opportune moment by unscrupulous bankster trading arms and armies of HFT computer arrays of trading firms. So quoting Fat tails, "so what"?

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 Cloudy 
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I noticed more products on the page; might be new or I just missed it before:

EZ Educational Products - EZ Signal - Your Gateway to the Futures World!

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  #74 (permalink)
 Peter2150 
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Cloudy View Post
I noticed more products on the page; might be new or I just missed it before:

EZ Educational Products - EZ Signal - Your Gateway to the Futures World!

Yeah, it's new. No thanks.

Pete

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