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List of vendors selling BMT indicators


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List of vendors selling BMT indicators

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  #1 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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After reading this thread: , I thought it would be fruitful to list all vendors selling indicators taken from this site.

E.g., TTM has made a fortune selling indicators they lifted off the Tradestation forum, and I would hate for someone to exploit this forum in the same way.

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  #3 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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This is one of the resellers of Big Mike's indicators. Not very serious. Who ever pays for that stuff will learn the hard way that ignorance is often punished.

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  #4 (permalink)
 cory 
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Fat Tails View Post
This is one of the resellers of Big Mike's indicators. Not very serious. Who ever pays for that stuff will learn the hard way that ignorance is often punished.

NinjaTrader Add-ons - Forex Club

real subtle that guy


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  #5 (permalink)
 wldman 
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working on a few ttm indicators myself. For me the most objectionable point is that they are being "sold", not so much that they are available from some non futures.io (formerly BMT) outlet. I saw a post yesterday that wisely stated that everything will eventually be available somewhere. I also go back and forth over the need to maintain "secrets". Evidence this: people are spending money on what they can reasonably get for free with just a minimal amout of initiative. What does that tell you about that persons chances of making it in the most competitive arena in the world. Here is a fact: I will transfer all of the money from their account to my account as quickly as possible. We are supposed to suffer the fool with grace...I suffer these fools with joy and gratitude. Thanks fools have a nice day.

Someone I know very well "planted" a set of indies to be stolen with the express purpose of exploiting their user buy being able to foreshadow their next move. This while posting in a live trade chat room registered users that was left open for the indie thiefs. Nefarious but not at all unheard of.

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  #6 (permalink)
kk240
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It's better not list those sites here, because usually they are also selling cracks . If you mess they bussiness, you will see more big mike forum downtime. when they do D.o.s attacks.

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  #7 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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kk240 View Post
It's better not list those sites here, because usually they are also selling cracks . If you mess they bussiness, you will see more big mike forum downtime. when they do D.o.s attacks.

I do not agree. If we list them here, it does not mess up their business, because nobody who knows this forum would spend that money anyway.

Those sites are just run by fools for fools, so I think we can affford to ignore them.

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  #8 (permalink)
kk240
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Maybe you are right,listing those here is also good advertise for them, where to find all kind of cracks.
If mike don't want legal vendors add's here. We are then advertising crack site's when posting they addresses here. ????


Fat Tails View Post
I do not agree. If we list them here, it does not mess up their business, because nobody who knows this forum would spend that money anyway.

Those sites are just run by fools for fools, so I think we can affford to ignore them.


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  #9 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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There is another annoying forum presenting indicators from Big Mike's.

eTradingforum.com FREE Community Forum

The guy is promoting his forum through the NinjaTrader forum with indicators he has copied from Big Mike's. Just noticed him because he was both impertinent and stupid. 3 posts on the NinjaTrader forum, 3 times recommending his forum.

Got him, because he wanted me to download my own indicators from his forum.

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  #10 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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Fat Tails View Post
he wanted me to download my own indicators from his forum.

'

Haha, that's pretty funny! (in a sad way)

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  #11 (permalink)
 wldman 
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that is amazing. I'm sorry that this has happened to you especially since so much of your work is rock solid. I guess there is both a scumbag and a sucker born every minute. I wonder if there is a way to have a blanket copyright or trademadk applied to the things posted on futures.io (formerly BMT)....one that would at least allow authors to go after people who steal and resell. I have some friends in that business and I'll ask if they have any ideas.

Is he local to me, I could stop by for a visit...you know to inquire about indicators.

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  #12 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Fat Tails View Post
There is another annoying forum presenting indicators from Big Mike's.

I have a history with this guy. He was an Elite Member here and has been banned after I discovered he was downloading elite content and re-posting. I had my attorney (at $275/hr) get involved with cease and desist and DMCA take down notices and the content should be removed now.

If there is content that remains please send me a private message with a URL.

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  #13 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Lornz View Post
'

Haha, that's pretty funny! (in a sad way)

I'm actually offended that nobody thought any of my indicators were worth pirating.

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  #14 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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Big Mike View Post
I have a history with this guy. He was an Elite Member here and has been banned after I discovered he was downloading elite content and re-posting. I had my attorney (at $275/hr) get involved with cease and desist and DMCA take down notices and the content should be removed now.

If there is content that remains please send me a private message with a URL.

Mike

As I said, a number of indicators from Big Mike's has been recently posted, and

-> the content is not removed
-> the guy even tried to recommend an indicator, which I have only posted on Big Mike's, which is the PivotZonesDaily
indicator, see this link

NinjaTrader Support Forum - View Single Post - Pivot Question

The pivot zones indicator is available on https://www.etradingforum right here:

Pivot zones indicator

On the NinjaTrader indicators forum there are also the Price Action Swing Trend from @dorschden, BetterRenko Bars by @aslan, the ZigZagUTC-Price by and my MACDBBLines.

I am not crying. The pivot indicators are useless without the detailed instruction how to use them and how to set up the session templates, so those who load them down elsewhere will simply get false pivot values... And I have coded them for free use by everybody anyhow. I do not mind if they are posted elsewhere with a reference to the source.

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  #15 (permalink)
 cory 
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a pirate den, probl same guy with multiple alias

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 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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Funny isn't it?

There are those that innovate. There are those that use innovation. Then there are those that steal it.

If people really thought about it, they'd probably come to the conclusion that the future is bleak in terms of output from the innovators.

Whether you do it for cash or kudos, there's always someone with little talent ready to come along & steal your idea.

So - what do you do with your next idea?

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  #17 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
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clue all indis uploaded on the same date

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  #18 (permalink)
 sam028 
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I think there is only one real human user behind this "forum"...

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  #19 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
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sam028 View Post
I think there is only one real human user behind this "forum"...

I have some choice names for him but none says human and most starts with a...

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  #20 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
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forrestang View Post
I'm actually offended that nobody thought any of my indicators were worth pirating.

Maybe if you'd really apply yourself...

I will gladly sell your indicators behind your back, so please try a little harder!

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  #21 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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Lornz View Post
Maybe if you'd really apply yourself...

I will gladly sell your indicators behind your back, so please try a little harder!

What is the name of your site, maybe we can directly post the indicators there - with a few glitches of course - to make you your life easier.

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  #22 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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Fat Tails View Post
What is the name of your site, maybe we can directly post the indicators there - with a few glitches of course - to make you your life easier.

GetRichWithLornzsOriginalIndicators.com will be registered shortly!

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  #23 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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Lornz View Post
GetRichWithLornzsOriginalIndicators.com will be registered shortly!

Well chosen, as the name of the site leaves it open WHO gets rich.

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  #24 (permalink)
 sharky 
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is that all your paying mike? mine wont even have lunch with me for that...lmao sharky

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 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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just out of interest....

How many of these indicators are genuine creations of the people that put them on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

By genuine creation, I mean the idea, design and implementation was done by someone posting here.

Are any of the indicators copies of other people's idea's? You know how it goes - look at something somebody else has done and then code it up.

If these are genuine creations, like the stuff from Gomi, then I would agree this is not good.

On the other hand, if some of these are re-coded versions of commercial/non-commercial inventions, then the smarts, the intellectual property is in the invention and NOT the code. For this category, no-one has had anything stolen.

So - for example, if someone re-coded the BBSqueeze which John Carter et al ripped off from elsewhere (allegedly) and THAT has been copied from futures.io (formerly BMT) to elsewhere, I don't think there is any cause for complaint. In fact, it's the guy who did the original work that has cause for complaint with the coders that created the copies and put them here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

After all, anyone can code but not everyone can invent.

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  #26 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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DionysusToast View Post
just out of interest....

How many of these indicators are genuine creations of the people that put them on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

I would say 99% of the dozens and dozens of URL's I included in the cease and desist notice were Elite-only indicators. This means in almost every situation (or perhaps in 100% of them) they were unique creations.

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  #27 (permalink)
 wldman 
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someone codes a moving average and puts a gradient color change thtat while something has been added, the world is not going to stop. However, it is my understanding that much of this material is more "original" than that in its design and that the code is basically copied and pasted, not recoded to create the same idea.

I am working on a BBsqueeze-like indicator now. While the original idea is not mine I dont believe trying to recreate something similar from scratch is pirating it. Credit for the invention stays with it's creator, I'd simply rather work it out on my own and understand the calculations. Evidence the hard time I had believing something I thought was original was replaced by modified keltner channels.

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  #28 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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The work is not being copied in a sense that they say "hey, that is a good idea. I will code that myself from scratch". The code is being copied as in cut-paste, including the posts, descriptions, futures.io (formerly BMT) usernames, everything.

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  #29 (permalink)
 wldman 
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that makes me kinda mad. It is just disrespectful and I do not like that.

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wldman View Post
someone codes a moving average and puts a gradient color change thtat while something has been added, the world is not going to stop. However, it is my understanding that much of this material is more "original" than that in its design and that the code is basically copied and pasted, not recoded to create the same idea.

I am working on a BBsqueeze-like indicator now. While the original idea is not mine I dont believe trying to recreate something similar from scratch is pirating it. Credit for the invention stays with it's creator, I'd simply rather work it out on my own and understand the calculations. Evidence the hard time I had believing something I thought was original was replaced by modified keltner channels.

Trade well guys, the holidays are coming! DB

OK - fair enough - but what about when you post that on here? Do you cross a line?

Perhaps this is a bad example, because we know that Carter et al stole the idea from elsewhere.

Still - if you see an idea, re-code it & then release it, that is a form of piracy. You are absolutely copying somebody else's intellectual property.

The reason I point this out, is that this sort of activity ultimately puts people off from inventing things. Why bother inventing something & releasing it, if some programmer will then release a copy for free on the web?

You would presume that if a programmer had the abilitity to create and invent, then they would do so, right?

There's a lot of kudos on line for re-coding somebody else's ideas. The funny thing is - the end result is that people will keep their ideas to themselves because of this. End result is less people benefit from the ideas.

On the bright side - 99.999% of indicators are crap anyway. I'd say 100% but I can't because of GOMI. Still - I'd be more than comfortable is saying that 99.9999999999999% of price based indicators are of no use.

This is of course, just my opinion!

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  #31 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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I generally agree with the uselessness of indicators by their own. Everything is just 35% by itself.

My issue would just be that it's shady to take something, and SELL it, or even if money isn't involved, taking credit for it is bad as well.

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  #32 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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You guys are missing the majority of the issue.

Even if someone takes a MACD or CCI, if they spend hours customizing it and then they uploaded that to a private forum for private use by members only of that forum, they did this intentionally. So when that content is then stolen and posted elsewhere, as in this case, then it is wrong.

I don't want to keep posting on this over and over, because we don't need to give of these scum bags ideas or promote their websites by bringing this topic back to the top of the list. My attorney may not be as good as sharky's at only $275/hr, but this is part of what I routinely do - defend futures.io (formerly BMT) against these types of people and try to protect what has been created here, using DMCA take down notices, cease and desist, or otherwise.

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  #33 (permalink)
 wwwingman 
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DionysusToast View Post
just out of interest....

How many of these indicators are genuine creations of the people that put them on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

By genuine creation, I mean the idea, design and implementation was done by someone posting here.

Are any of the indicators copies of other people's idea's? You know how it goes - look at something somebody else has done and then code it up.

If these are genuine creations, like the stuff from Gomi, then I would agree this is not good.

On the other hand, if some of these are re-coded versions of commercial/non-commercial inventions, then the smarts, the intellectual property is in the invention and NOT the code. For this category, no-one has had anything stolen.

So - for example, if someone re-coded the BBSqueeze which John Carter et al ripped off from elsewhere (allegedly) and THAT has been copied from futures.io (formerly BMT) to elsewhere, I don't think there is any cause for complaint. In fact, it's the guy who did the original work that has cause for complaint with the coders that created the copies and put them here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

After all, anyone can code but not everyone can invent.

Interesting. What is an invention? Do you consider an idea to be an invention? Do you consider having an idea means it is your property?
Studies show many people have THE SAME idea at the same moment (one example is startups in Internet). Some will make something out of it, some will not succeed, some won't try to use it. Finally, is an idea worth something? Investors very rarely pay an idea because they don't give it that much value. However they will pay the product, or at least the execution of a proof of concept.
So.... having an idea, being an inventor, is one piece of the idea/invention/product circle you are describing. The coder have a role too. The one you consider copying, or making it better. The seller too. The user too.
Just my 2 cents.
W.

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 ab456 
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Interesting. What is an invention? Do you consider an idea to be an invention? Do you consider having an idea means it is your property?
Studies show many people have THE SAME idea at the same moment (one example is startups in Internet). Some will make something out of it, some will not succeed, some won't try to use it. Finally, is an idea worth something? Investors very rarely pay an idea because they don't give it that much value. However they will pay the product, or at least the execution of a proof of concept.
So.... having an idea, being an inventor, is one piece of the idea/invention/product circle you are describing. The coder have a role too. The one you consider copying, or making it better. The seller too. The user too.
Just my 2 cents.
W.

Just posting here for reference. This is known as " The concept of multiple discovery" -

Multiple discovery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The concept of multiple discovery is the hypothesis that most scientific discoveries and inventions are made independently and more or less simultaneously by multiple scientists and inventors. The concept of multiple discovery opposes a traditional view—the "heroic theory" of invention and discovery.

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 Fat Tails 
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ab456 View Post
Just posting here for reference. This is known as " The concept of multiple discovery" -

Multiple discovery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The concept of multiple discovery is the hypothesis that most scientific discoveries and inventions are made independently and more or less simultaneously by multiple scientists and inventors. The concept of multiple discovery opposes a traditional view—the "heroic theory" of invention and discovery.

@ab456: Most of the commercial indicators do not dis-cover anything.

You may talk of discovery in the realm of science, but commercial indicators do not have anything in common with sciences or scientific discovery. I think it is rather approrpiate to compare them to a piece of art. Let us treat them as naive paintings or rudimentary poems derived from price action.

If the monkey below comes up with a poem of Rabindranath Tagore, would you call that multiple discovery?



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 RJay 
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@ab456: Most of the commercial indicators do not dis-cover anything.

You may talk of discovery in the realm of science, but commercial indicators do not have anything in common with sciences or scientific discovery. I think it is rather approrpiate to compare them to a piece of art. Let us treat them as naive paintings or rudimentary poems derived from price action.

If the monkey below comes up with a poem of Rabindranath Tagore, would you call that multiple discovery?




Hey Fat Tails,

They told me to smile for that picture, but I wasn't in the mood.

RJay

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 Fat Tails 
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Hey Fat Tails,

They told me to smile for that picture, but I wasn't in the mood.

RJay

@RJay: I did not realize that it was you!

What happened to your ears?

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 RJay 
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@RJay: I did not realize that it was you!

What happened to your ears?

Not sure exactly how it happened...Just a couple pieces of advice. First, never drink large amounts of alcohol at a Las Vegas Star Trek convention. Second, think twice about telling any Spock jokes. He has no sense of humor.

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 DoctorGM 
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Interesting. What is an invention? Do you consider an idea to be an invention? Do you consider having an idea means it is your property?
Studies show many people have THE SAME idea at the same moment (one example is startups in Internet). Some will make something out of it, some will not succeed, some won't try to use it. Finally, is an idea worth something? Investors very rarely pay an idea because they don't give it that much value. However they will pay the product, or at least the execution of a proof of concept.
So.... having an idea, being an inventor, is one piece of the idea/invention/product circle you are describing. The coder have a role too. The one you consider copying, or making it better. The seller too. The user too.
Just my 2 cents.
W.

Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to this forum and I came across this thread while researching the excellent work of Fat Tails. I am an inventor because I have many issued patents (US and Internationally) and my inventions are used by my employer in shipping products. I also sit on Patent Committees, I read about 150 invention disclosures per year and I've even spoken at the USPTO (by invitation twice - to teach about my inventions - not to teach them about their work - big difference). I only say this so that you know I have some background in the area of Intellectual Property. There is a difference between Patents and Copyright (both are IP). A patent is the idea in a preferred enablement. Copyright can be similar but generally applies to original creations (works of art, logos, code, etc.). Both are protected and are the property of the creator.

It would take too many pages of text here to get into details but essentially, anything that can be patented has to be novel, useful and enabled (meaning it is do-able). So you can have the "idea" that you will use a rocketship to get to Mars but the guy or organization that actually enables a workable rocketship is the one who gets the patent.

Once something is in the public domain (by way of publication, presentation or patent), it is no longer available to be claimed in a patent except in the case of *reduction*. So if someone patented a method that requires 5 steps, and you figure out how to do it in 4, then you have a new idea that can be patented. If you do it in 6 and those 6 steps contain the original 5, you are infringing.

In the case of indicators, someone who copies code directly or only makes minor changes and claims it as their own is in violation of Copyright (and they are a scumbag). Someone who takes a non-patented (think non-protected) idea and substantially modifies the code, method or functionality has created and original work which is theirs.

There is much more that can be said - so much so that our courts are tied up with the infinite verbiage that this area of law has created. But I hope this brief explanation helps.

BTW, I too was following a previously mentioned well-know vendor and even bought DVD's and went to seminars, etc. All newbies do that. It didn't take me very long to smell a rat. Thankfully, due to my natural skepticism and my ability to research, I never shelled out many dollars and I never traded their signals.

Incidentally, when I compare the value I get from futures.io (formerly BMT)F to the value I've received from my previous "education" activities, there is no comparison. futures.io (formerly BMT)F is among the best of deals in the industry :-)

-Dr.GM

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 Fat Tails 
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DoctorGM View Post
Hi Folks,

I am a newbie to this forum and I came across this thread while researching the excellent work of Fat Tails. I am an inventor because I have many issued patents (US and Internationally) and my inventions are used by my employer in shipping products. I also sit on Patent Committees, I read about 150 invention disclosures per year and I've even spoken at the USPTO (by invitation twice - to teach about my inventions - not to teach them about their work - big difference). I only say this so that you know I have some background in the area of Intellectual Property. There is a difference between Patents and Copyright (both are IP). A patent is the idea in a preferred enablement. Copyright can be similar but generally applies to original creations (works of art, logos, code, etc.). Both are protected and are the property of the creator.

It would take too many pages of text here to get into details but essentially, anything that can be patented has to be novel, useful and enabled (meaning it is do-able). So you can have the "idea" that you will use a rocketship to get to Mars but the guy or organization that actually enables a workable rocketship is the one who gets the patent.

Once something is in the public domain (by way of publication, presentation or patent), it is no longer available to be claimed in a patent except in the case of *reduction*. So if someone patented a method that requires 5 steps, and you figure out how to do it in 4, then you have a new idea that can be patented. If you do it in 6 and those 6 steps contain the original 5, you are infringing.

In the case of indicators, someone who copies code directly or only makes minor changes and claims it as their own is in violation of Copyright (and they are a scumbag). Someone who takes a non-patented (think non-protected) idea and substantially modifies the code, method or functionality has created and original work which is theirs.

There is much more that can be said - so much so that our courts are tied up with the infinite verbiage that this area of law has created. But I hope this brief explanation helps.

BTW, I too was following a previously mentioned well-know vendor and even bought DVD's and went to seminars, etc. All newbies do that. It didn't take me very long to smell a rat. Thankfully, due to my natural skepticism and my ability to research, I never shelled out many dollars and I never traded their signals.

Incidentally, when I compare the value I get from futures.io (formerly BMT)F to the value I've received from my previous "education" activities, there is no comparison. futures.io (formerly BMT)F is among the best of deals in the industry :-)

-Dr.GM

@DoctorGM: Thank you for your comment. Before I go further, I would like to bring up a specific case.

There is a pretty simple indicator called CFGMomentum Oscillator. It is basically an average of the RSI with the N-bar change of the RSI added. This is the main line, from which two signal lines are generated by smoothing the main line with a SMA. The whole thing can be coded in 15 minutes and is just a variation of many other indicators that have been built on the RSI.

The whole thing got interesting when I realized that there was a patent to protect this outburst of ingenuity.

Type of Work: Text
Registration Number / Date: TX0003375191 / 1992-07-22
Title: Relative strength index : advanced / by Andrew E. Cardwell, Jr.
Description: 1 v.
Copyright Claimant: Cardwell Financial Group (employer for hire)
Date of Creation: 1990
Date of Publication: 1990-04-27

Variant title: Relative strength index : advanced
Names: Cardwell, Andrew E., Jr.
Cardwell Financial Group
(copied from the home page of the United States Patent Office)


By the way the indicator has been published under a different name in a book by Constance Brown. But this was not a case of multiple discovery as she had worked with Andrew Cardwell in her earlier life. The formula is therefore public knowledge.

I am primarily astonished that such a patent is acceptable by the patent office. For me this just a sign of decadence. Will we next see patents of moving averages? Or will the "inventor" of market profile claim the intellectual ownership of all probability distributions?

Much of the stuff for which vendors pretend that it is the secret path to riches barely stands the test of high school mathematics. Or in other words, it is both primitive and useless, as its sole purpose is to fill the pockets of dubious vendors. Of course, there are some serious guys around, who believe in what they are doing and who offer reasonable advice. Usually they do not "protect" their ideas by copyrights, as they do not feel that this is necessary. They are keen to publish their findings and discuss them. There are other ways to make money than to sell scam to unsuspecting amateur traders. What about trading the markets?

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 syxforex 
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One thing's for sure, no one is reinventing the wave............ haha.. indicator monkeys..

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 DoctorGM 
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@DoctorGM: Thank you for your comment.

{snip}

Much of the stuff for which vendors pretend that it is the secret path to riches barely stands the test of high school mathematics. Or in other words, it is both primitive and useless, as its sole purpose is to fill the pockets of dubious vendors. Of course, there are some serious guys around, who believe in what they are doing and who offer reasonable advice. Usually they do not "protect" their ideas by copyrights, as they do not feel that this is necessary. They are keen to publish their findings and discuss them. There are other ways to make money than to sell scam to unsuspecting amateur traders. What about trading the markets?

Hi Fat Tails,

Firstly, let me publicly thank you for your contributions. The last several days (maybe weeks by now) I have been spending whatever free time I have going over your material. Really excellent stuff!

Regarding your last paragraph quoted above: How true, how true. I have learned this from direct experience (but not expensive experience thankfully). Many vendors just change the name of the indicator to hide it's true identity. Clearly they are better at marketing than trading. And I suspect they trade solely on indicators, so they will not be successful in the long run.

Below is some commentary related to your question. It may or may not answer it in the way you hoped for. Please ask further questions if I missed the mark.

This above reference is a copyright as opposed to a patent. If it was a patent, it would already be expired and be in the public domain. I am not familiar with the indicator but with any copyrighted material, you are not allowed to copy it exactly. You can create material with the same functionality as long as it is not a direct copy. If it is a direct copy, you can work with it for personal use but you can’t sell it as that would create damages to the copyright holder.

Revisiting patents. There are lots of lousy patents out there. The examiners sometimes don’t know what they are reading but since they can’t find a direct piece of prior art, they award the patent. I have responded to office actions on some of my patents where it was clear the examiner didn't even know what was being claimed. There are many reasons for this but it doesn't matter as much as you think. This is because most people have the wrong idea about what a patent really is. One of the most important aspects of a patent is that is gives you the right to use your own invention. A producer of some widget will seek a patent on the widget so that they can go to market and recoup their investment by selling the widget. They also have protection against gross infringement should they decide to seek it. Prosecuting patents is complicated and expensive (like $10M per side for a fairly basic case). Recouping legal costs in a patent dispute is not obvious. I have been involved in these situations. In fact, sometimes, a patent holder may be forced to protect the patent because they have licensed it to several third parties who wouldn't be paying the licensing fees unless the holder was actually enforcing the claims. This is important: A patent is about the claims – not the specification. So you may look at a patent and think it covers something but you would likely be wrong. You have to look at the independent claims to determine what the patent actually protects. In the application process of a patent, you can get into a situation (almost always you will) where the claims are progressively narrowed until the claims are allowed. This makes the patent pretty useless because narrow claims are easy to work around. In the case of an indicator, someone might make a claim for the indicator using some very specific steps. Should you produce the indicator using different steps, you are not infringing on the patent even though the functionality is similar or the same.

Now, in the case of a lousy patent, there really isn't a problem because if it is improper, it will fail on the first challenge - either in court or through a challenge at the patent office. So people can (and will) file crap and get it. Fine. They are spending money, time and resources to do that. But it's a problem for them because if it's crap, it will be challenged and they will lose it and all their efforts and expenses will be for nothing. Some companies will even send prior art to the patent office to inform the examiners before the patent is issued (this is often done during the period between allowance and issuance - which is why that period of time exits).

OK, there is a lot more to be said but this is getting pretty long. Let’s cut to the chase – prosecution.

In order for someone to prosecute, they must be able to show damages. This also implies discoverability. Some companies won’t file software patents that are algorithms because of discoverability. If you can’t prove (discover) that someone who is creating damages against you is using your algorithm, then you won’t prosecute. You could get a court order to examine source code but a lot of other stuff happens before anyone gets to that stage. So you can engineer an indicator with the same functionality and use it personally without fear of prosecution. The reason is that you are creating an original work, you are not creating damages by selling someone else’s work and furthermore, discoverability is still a problem for the party wanting to prosecute (by this I mean that if you use it just personally, it is never discoverable). So the only people who are at risk of a problem are those vendors who steal someone’s work and then sells it thereby creating damages to the original author (unless that author releases it into the public domain without restriction).

And here is a common mistake for you to think about. Who decides who is infringing on a patent? Not you, your friends or some person on a forum. Infringement is determined only in a court of law. I have been involved in projects where engineers told me they thought they couldn't develop such-and-such because someone has a patent. I tell them to keep working because they are not qualified to make that statement. In fact, in every case, when I ask them what claim they are referring to, they have no idea. Even in the case of infringement, there are business solutions through fair and equitable licensing or through creative business deals.

So be creative and not fearful when innovating. And keep innovating!

Dr. GM
(Sorry for the long post. I could write pages on this stuff because there is so much of it…)

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 DoctorGM 
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I going to jump in with an additional short comment about patents. This is something I wanted to say in my previous post.

It is this: patents are published for a reason. That reason is to teach. The purpose behind a country publishing a patent is so that others (commonly referred to one who is skilled in the art) can replicate and then build on the work. This is how innovation happens and is beneficial for the well-being and progress of the country. The deal you get for teaching the world is that you have rights and protection to sell your invention for a limited time (17-20 years). So it is expected that others will copy patented work and either improve upon it or discover other methods (which they can patent themselves).

So go ahead and work with other people's ideas. Build on them. Teach. Just don't take someone else's work verbatim and sell it as your own. Besides being of dubious ethics, it's a violation of copyright.

Cheers!

-Dr.GM

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 wwwingman 
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DoctorGM
patents are published for a reason. That reason is to teach.
...
So go ahead and work with other people's ideas. Build on them. Teach. Just don't take someone else's work verbatim and sell it as your own. Besides being of dubious ethics, it's a violation of copyright.

Hi,

I can understand the relationship between publication of research and teaching but not patents and teaching.
Patents are created in order to protect the investment made by those that registered the patent. This was probably the intention of those that invented the copyright laws. But in some domains this seems to do more harm than anything, especially in the software business where patents became legal weapons specially designed for making money and choking creativity.
I simply wonder if copyright is not a rest of an industrial era that seems to be ending. Maybe in favor of new models like open business models ( open source, creative commons, etc…).
Here is an interesting video of Larry Lessig: Laws that choke creativity | Video on TED.com

W.

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 dtman 
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Quoting 
It is this: patents are published for a reason. That reason is to teach. The purpose behind a country publishing a patent is so that others (commonly referred to one who is skilled in the art) can replicate and then build on the work. This is how innovation happens and is beneficial for the well-being and progress of the country. The deal you get for teaching the world is that you have rights and protection to sell your invention for a limited time (17-20 years). So it is expected that others will copy patented work and either improve upon it or discover other methods (which they can patent themselves).
Dr. GM

Thanks Dr. GM,
I created some software a while ago that I got the inspiration from Al Brooks ,actually people in his group. So I made the indicator and found out that even more people use the same concept and infact a school was already teaching this to it's students. As the past 3-4 years have now past, I was thinking about patenting it and trying to make it secure. However, as you said as soon as you patent it you basically give away the code for others to use and grow. Copyright seems pretty much useless as well. I like that idea, but there are so many out there that will basically just undercut you for nothing. I have a hard time with that as I have countless hours in development as well as learn and adapting to new programming languages that someone else would just grab, steal, and sell which has stopped me from posting a lot on futures.io (formerly BMT), but that's another issue.
We have a very corrupt society where corporations that can buy the politicians will make it illegal for you the little guy to do anything like what you propose, not to mention write a crazy complex tax code so they can pay 0%, again another issue. However, looking at the tech companies out there like Google and Apple and seeing all kinds of phones, tablets, and mp3 players out there all with the the same basic stuff yet totally different branding. It makes me think that patents have to be pretty easy to go around or those big corporations are not protecting themselves. Anyway just my 2 cents

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 Big Mike 
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dtman View Post
I have a hard time with that as I have countless hours in development as well as learn and adapting to new programming languages that someone else would just grab, steal, and sell which has stopped me from posting a lot on futures.io (formerly BMT), but that's another issue.

I just did a search and could not find where you've shared any indicator or tool on futures.io (formerly BMT). So I am not sure what you are referring to about not posting on futures.io (formerly BMT) since you've never shared anything?

Mike

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Ten Myths About Patents - Falkvinge on Infopolicy

Myth 1: Nobody would invent anything if they couldn’t patent it.

Fact: People invent for a lot of reasons. Some people invent because they can. In this, they share a strong drive with artists. But focusing on the commercial innovation, nobody invents because they can patent the innovation. They invent because they can make money on it.

In practically all industries, this money is made from selling products and services relating to or incorporating the innovation. Patents do not sell products and are, for the most part, granted long after the related product is so old it is obsolete and no longer generating money.

If companies did not innovate, they would lose the ability to sell products, and therefore lose the ability to make money. This is much more relevant than the ability to patent something.

Myth 2: Patents drive innovation.

Fact: Patents do not drive innovation, they ban innovation. A patent is, by its very definition, something that bans the entire world except the patent holder from building and improving on a particular innovative step. If patents are driving innovation, which is claimed, then this outright ban must be shown to have side effects that somehow drive innovation to a larger extent than the extent to which the direct ban destroys it. No such side effects have turned out to exist.

To the contrary, patents are being used by incumbent industries to shut down disruptive competition. Rather than competing with better products and services, the current kings-of-the-hill are finding it more cost efficient competing with more expensive lawyers. This does neither drive innovation nor a healthy competitive market.

Myth 3: Nobody would invest in startups that don’t have patents.

Fact: The seasoned startup investors absolutely hate patents and the entire patent system. They compare it to a cancer in the economy. As soon as a company has any money at all, it will be sued for patent infringement on pure speculation. These purely speculative patent threats have been estimated to burn about 10% of all investment capital today.

Myth 4: Patents are good and useful as a measure of innovation.

Fact: This is the broken window fallacy. To measure innovation in terms of how many innovative steps have been stopped by legal means for the duration of a patent — usually 20 years — is just not dysfunctional, it deserves a whole array of psychological disorder diagnoses.

Just because you can get a number on something doesn’t mean it can be used as a measure. Particularly not so if the number is a quantitative measure of bans on innovation, and you are trying to use it as a measure for innovation potential.

Myth 5: The patent system derailed just recently with the advent of the patent troll. Patents can be brought back on track if the troll problem is dealt with.

Fact: Patents have always been a brake on innovation. Lately, the pace of ideas have picked up, and so the problem has become more obvious — but it has always been there. The Industrial Revolution was delayed 30 years because of Watt’s patent on the steam engine (and people who improved it were even put in jail). The flight industry was delayed 25 years because of patent wars. Broadcast radio was delayed by ten years twice — first when it arrived in the 1920s, and a second time when FM radio arrived.

Myth 6: Patents protect the small, poor inventor against exploitation by ruthless big corporations.

Fact: A patent is only worth as much as you can spend on a lawsuit defending it. A small, poor inventor can’t even afford the application cost of €50,000 (average, including legal advice) for a European patent. That doesn’t even grant the patent, it’s just the application. Then, they will have to defend the patent in lawsuits against huge corporations, where one single patent lawsuit easily can (and typically does) run into millions of dollars in costs for each side. It’s plainly a joke that a small player can play in the patent arena, and it only offers protection for big players against small entrepreneurs.

Small and medium-sized businesses are increasingly shying away from patents, and politicians tend to see this as a problem, rather than considering the possibility that entrepreneurs have understood something that the politicians haven’t.

Myth 7: Patents disclose innovations – the alternative would be trade secrets.

Fact: This is wrong on both accounts. First, the trade secrets and critical know-how today lie in the manufacturing process, and very rarely in the finished product, which can be patented. Second, have you ever read a patent? Its language is so convoluted that it is absolutely impossible to comprehend for a normal engineer skilled in the applicable domain. This is also what has led us to at least ten overlapping patents on common things like network plugs. Third, trade secrets are not bad. It is part of normal healthy competition to try to gain the upper hand over your competitor (and is something that the government should not interfere with).

Myth 8: Patents are good for the economy — just look at all the licensing going on.

Fact: The entire patent system is draining resources from all corporations, if nothing else because it is a balance of terror. You need a patent portfolio for yourself in order to avoid patent lawsuits from others: you need the capability to countersue to avoid the lawsuits in the first place. Many corporations have a stated policy of never using patents offensively. The whole system has become a quagmire that sucks resources out of research and development.

When an entrepreneur chooses to pay a patent license, it has very little to do whether the patent has merit or not. Rather, it is a cynical calculation of whether it is more economical to just cave in to the demands and pay the license, or more economical to go to court and challenge the patent and claim as such. The court option is very rarely the one with the most business sense. Therefore, the system has turned into law-backed extortion. On the other side of the scale, politicians see all the licenses being paid and take this as a sign that the patent system works, when it is a result of extortion against the entrepreneurs that drive our economy.

The only group that consistently gains from the patent system are the patent lawyers. With the exception of one industry, the patent system is a net loss to every single industry.

The one exception is the pharma industry, as they use the monopoly deadweight created by the patent system to tax the public for their own gains. (In Europe, 83% of pharma revenue is tax money, on average.)

Myth 9: Patents can’t be scrapped without being replaced with something else that encourages innovation.

Fact: Patents harm the economy and innovation. It is perfectly possible to remove a strong brake on innovation without needing to insert another brake of a different color. If somebody is banging you repeatedly over the head with a hammer, you have the right to ask them to just stop, without having to simultaneously give them an alternative tool to hit you with.

Myth 10: All practicalities aside, patents are morally justified. You should own what you create.

Fact: It is morally just that you can combine your own pieces of property into new kinds of property, using ideas that you get by yourself. Patents allow somebody else to ban exactly this, just because they thought of the idea independently earlier and managed to fill out some particular forms. This is independent of whether you have even heard of the patent holder. Patents are, therefore, a strong limitation on competition rights and property rights. If you have the right to own what you create, then patents need to go out the window.

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