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YTC Price Action Trader (www.ytcpriceactiontrader.com)


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YTC Price Action Trader (www.ytcpriceactiontrader.com)

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  #1 (permalink)
 Adamus 
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I'm heading down the road of the YTC Price Action Trader and I'd be interested to hear from any other students of this course who want to form a trading 'study group'.

The idea would be for traders to submit their journals and logs of their trading sessions to each other for review, to benefit from each other's objective advice and criticism.

I figure it would best be paperless via email and/or skype with no requirement for physically meeting up, but if located in London, UK or near-by, that would be a definite plus point.

If you're interested, please get in touch by private message,

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  #3 (permalink)
sunbim31
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Hi

I am a great fan & follower of Lance Beggs , further inspired by Al Brooks.

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 Zwaen 
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Hello,

I'am also a fan of Beggs. In essence he describes 5 different setups you can trade, depending on the market environment.
I'm very interested if someone also trades the setups and how you do it ( also SL placement en trademanagement ).

One of my worst enemies are my own false assumptions
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 Adamus 
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That's right, and that's what I'm teaching myself now. He describes his strategy for the stop placement in detail - based on which of those 5 setups you're dealing with. The principle is that the stop is placed on the opposite side of the formation that you're trading.

e.g. for a pull-back in a trend where you think there's going to be some counter-trend traders trying to jump on a potential reversal, assuming you're looking at a stall in the pull-back where there's a high probability that the trend's going to resume, you put your stop at a point beyond the stall where the market would obviously be reversing and where your theory of a pull-back and trend resumption is invalidated. I guess you need examples to explain it best!

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 Zwaen 
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Adamus View Post
That's right, and that's what I'm teaching myself now. He describes his strategy for the stop placement in detail - based on which of those 5 setups you're dealing with. The principle is that the stop is placed on the opposite side of the formation that you're trading.

e.g. for a pull-back in a trend where you think there's going to be some counter-trend traders trying to jump on a potential reversal, assuming you're looking at a stall in the pull-back where there's a high probability that the trend's going to resume, you put your stop at a point beyond the stall where the market would obviously be reversing and where your theory of a pull-back and trend resumption is invalidated. I guess you need examples to explain it best!


Hey Adamus, you are right. Do you have an example of a trade you took lately? ( so we can discuss it )

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 Adamus 
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Zwaen View Post
Hey Adamus, you are right. Do you have an example of a trade you took lately? ( so we can discuss it )

I'm still backtesting static charts, concentrating on S/R levels and setup areas - I have a ton more of this to do before I even get to practicing the trade entries and exit management.

He has a ton of stuff on his blog and articles on his website - there must be some stuff there?

I'm in a rush at the moment, but if I see anything over the weekend I'll post it.

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 Zwaen 
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Nice example of a simple pullback (PB) on 6E 2 hours ago. 3 min chart.
You could have shorted under candle a or b ( imho)
Sl above candle a
after filled order, just trail 3min candles. ( offcourse you could use other management techniques like taking profit on several contracts at the RossHook, trailing other contracts on the 3 min candles, or even try to capture the whole trend down )

Key is weaknes on the " green " pullback, and no significant barriers after you enter. ( for example, the pullback before the pullback I mentioned was too strong in my opinion). Weakness here is seen because candle a has uppertail, candle b is a dark cloud cover-like. Shorting under candle b is more confirmation, but also reduced profit potential and higher SL.
If you see improvements, let me know.


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 Adamus 
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Yeah, I guess that's a text book example. Lance defines his stop and his target before entering, so he knows exactly what his RR will be and whether it's worth it. He also uses a lower time frame, 1min bars, to try to work a better entry than just using a stop entry below your trigger bar. My guess is that he would have jumped right in after the doji, or at least the bar after that. That would give you a great RR.

Oh yes, and you're an hour ahead there on the mainland

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Adamus, something that has helped me a lot is to be at all time aware of the major key changes in supply/demand. When you see what could possibly be a trade, try to mark on your chart the zone(s) where such events are taking place. The reason behind it is that you will eliminate weak setups and will develop your ability to spot where price could go. This helps gauging your RR too. A good place to partially exit is when price makes a volatility spike. These are easy to spot on a time based interval.

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 Zwaen 
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Yes London-Amsterdam almost same timezone ;-)

Just some observation I see a lot in 6E. ( maybe also in other market but i just only watch 6E )
When you take an " obvious entry" , price will often revisit the exact point of entry and moves on.
I think maybe this is because a lot of people will put their stoploss on that spot, to breakeven. But this is just speculation.
Example just 1 hour ago:

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Zwaen View Post
Just some observation I see a lot in 6E. ( maybe also in other market but i just only watch 6E )
When you take an " obvious entry" , price will often revisit the exact point of entry and moves on.
I think maybe this is because a lot of people will put their stoploss on that spot, to breakeven. But this is just speculation.
Example just 1 hour ago:

This is not new. This behavior happens all the time on the ES. A lot of traders that trade the ES move their stop to BE as soon as price moves one point in their direction. I always thought it was a bad tactic to proceed that way. Most of those who do that overtrade anyway. If the area is backed by good demand or supply then there is no reason to exit or move your stop to BE when price tries to shake you out. When things get scary for the small traders that's where pro add to their positions.

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 Zwaen 
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Interesting trendisyourfriend.
How do you move your stoploss? For example will you move your SL after a fixed or percentage gain? When do you regard it as " safe" to move your stoploss?

What has moving your SL has to do with overtrading?

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 kulu 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
This is not new. This behavior happens all the time on the ES. A lot of traders that trade the ES move their stop to BE as soon as price moves one point in their direction. I always thought it was a bad tactic to proceed that way. Most of those who do that overtrade anyway. If the area is backed by good demand or supply then there is no reason to exit or move your stop to BE when price tries to shake you out. When things get scary for the small traders that's where pro add to their positions.

@Trendisyourfriend ,

I agree with you. I think supply and demand is a concept that most traders do not understand or practice enough. There are plenty of resources on this topic and when you learn to pick the important levels, they work out very well. I think the reason why most people are "scared" of this way of trading is that "you are asked" to take, for example, a long when price is moving down towards the Demand zone and most people are uncomfortable with that. Most of us retail traders want to wait for confirmation and buy/sell after a period of buying/selling. However, if you are unaware of pure supply and demand levels above/below current price, most of the time you will trade right into these levels and price will reverse hard on you. I am just getting comfortable taking these trades at the supply and demand zones without waiting for confirmation as long as the risk profile meets my plan.

Sorry for the long message. Here two trades I took this week based on the supply and demand zones.

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 Zwaen 
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Hello kulu, if you know good information of finding relevant SR levels I'm very interested. Beggs also uses SR levels in combination with strenght/weakness of price action. ( no indicators naked chart ) Two weeks ago I found information of Sam Seiden who has great articles about Supply and Resistance. The articles really turned my view of the stockmarket upside-down. Especially the fact you mention, the novice will buy AFTER a big move ( and sometimes right into resistance ). Because I also believe this is very important information for trading, I'am very interested if you have good information on gauging the relevance of support and resistance levels.

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sunbim31
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Its all about support & resistance which play the net order flow in different time frames.The six principles( 4 rules within the framework & 2 at the edges of the framework) of Lance Beggs are most appropriate to follow in any time frame. A gem of a book which has opened how to read market & trade fruitfully.

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 Adamus 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Adamus, something that has helped me a lot is to be at all time aware of the major key changes in supply/demand. When you see what could possibly be a trade, try to mark on your chart the zone(s) where such events are taking place. The reason behind it is that you will eliminate weak setups and will develop your ability to spot where price could go. This helps gauging your RR too. A good place to partially exit is when price makes a volatility spike. These are easy to spot on a time based interval.

I'm trying! That's what I'm learning to do right now using higher time frame 1hour bar swing highs and swing lows or areas of consolidation. Generally speaking I just draw a horizontal line, but the interpretation is a zone a few pips wide above and below the line. I tend to see them everywhere though, sometimes I have too many. I don't want to start introducing more rules for them though, I'd rather just build up my experience.

I do find it easier to spot the setups with such S/R in place on the chart, and I find it more difficult to work out what I might have done at a pull-back in a trend when there's no S/R nearby.

I guess it's all in the learning.

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Hello kulu, if you know good information of finding relevalt SR lavels I'm very interested. Beggs also uses SR levels in combination with strenght/weakness of price action. ( no indicators naked chart ) Two weeks ago I found information of Sam Seiden who has great articles about Supply and Resistance. Because I also believe this is very important information for trading, I'am very interested if you have good information on gauging the relevance of support and resistance levels.

@ Zwaen,

Most of what I look at is Sam Seiden, and Lance Beggs. I have not attended Sam's XLT course nor do I have Lance Beggs books. All I have is there free online resources. Also, nobrainer trades put out a video a few weeks back about liquidity gaps which is basically spotting those spikes what we use to draw our zones.

I think the most important thing is to define what a supply/demand zone is to you in terms of profit potential. Also, just be as picky as you can, if you don't see the level/zone immediately, then it's not there. I look to take one or two trades per day, and some days there are no good setup on the instruments I watch and I pass. However, because of the RR on trades that work out (or fail) I don't have to trade everyday.

Practice is very important. I know that Sam Seiden has the Odd enhancers that they looks at. I look at those too, especially, how price leaves the levels, and space (profit margin). I seldom take second test of a level, and I like to wait on those to see some form of confirmation within the zone and take my trade as price leaves the level.

I hope this helps. It's still a learning process for me as well, but I feel comfortable taking the obvious trades. Again, it is nerve wrecking to go short when you see price coming at your level. I trust the setups and as long as my risk level is acceptable I am willing to take a loss for a potential healthy percentage gain into my account.

Kulu

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 kulu 
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Here is a trade on the FDAX based on the supply zone (level on top of a level = one of the Odd enhancers by sam seiden). I was at a meeting and I missed my entry.

Because the level was very wide, I was going to watch the 15 min chart for my entry to lower my risk. Just wanted to share the setup. Also, look at how late you get into the trade if you waited for the Pin Bar to close and then enter on that as confirmation of a reversal. I am just saying.

Kulu

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 Zwaen 
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Hello Kulu,

after watching several video's of Seiden I also noted the odd enhancers. But in some videos he tells about 6 and in another video he tells he uses 11 variables to gauge the possible succes or failure of the setup. Offcourse he cannot tell everything because his courses would be useless and the people paid for it will be angry.
Which do you use? Or do you use a few in combination with common sense? Are'nt you afraid you use information which is possible not complete for this reason?

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 babypowder 
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Hey All,
In the spirit of YTC setups. Here are 3 area's of interest on the 1440 min chart.
ES - babypowder's library

Looks like a BPB on the current area of interest with a nice IB for a possible entry if your looking at the 240 min chart.
BPB - babypowder's library

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Hello Kulu,

after watching several video's of Seiden I also noted the odd enhancers. But in some videos he tells about 6 and in another video he tells he uses 11 variables to gauge the possible succes or failure of the setup. Offcourse he cannot tell everything because his courses would be useless and the people paid for it will be angry.
Which do you use? Or do you use a few in combination with common sense? Are'nt you afraid you use information which is possible not complete for this reason?

Zwaen,

I think what Sam shares in his videos is plenty good. Like everything else posted on this forum and anywhere else, you gotta take the concept and apply it to the market the way to suite your trading style. I understand that when Sam has on his videos is not the whole story. I don't even know how many odd enhancers he has in total. And besides, supply/demand zones are different for each trader. For me, I have to see a strong move off a level, and have a good profit margin. If I don't have those two things, then I don't even look at a congestion area.

Like everything in this business (and in life) there are no shortcuts, you gotta put in the hours and screen time. You have to practice until you find what your definition of supply/demand level is for you. Also, I like the "drop-base-rally" for my demand levels, and "rally-base-drop" for my supply levels with at least a 1:2 R2R ratio. It's taken me a while to get it and I am still learning.

Every week Online Trading Academy has "Lesson From The Pros" Those articles are really good as well. Some of the things I also look at are the following:

  • Retracements: First retracement to a level is highest probability
  • Arrival: We want to see a strong move into the level i.e no consolidation just before a level.
  • Time at level: In line with the strength odds enhancer. When price is most out of balance the price will spend the least amount of time there, so the fewer candles the better.
  • Levels on Levels, for these I like to watch price to see if it trade to the lower/higher level before taking the trade. Take a look at the 60M chart of the TF or YM from 08/31/2011 to see what I mean.
I think the most important thing is to practice this and apply your own rules around the basic idea that Sam presents and see how it work for you. Practice it for the rest of the year and see what kind of results you get. You will be amazed at how accurate some of these levels are. And if you get the right level, price will just be rejected from it. I use some Price action bars as well with this method and they compliment each other very well (inside bars, engulfing bars, pin bars, island reversals, key pivot reversal, etc). But again, these formation have to be at a supply/demand level for me to take them.

I hope this helps. This is the way I use this information, and some people might be using it differently. I think Lance Beggs information is great, but I don't have his book yet. I have seen his free stuff (I like his trapped traders formations)

Kulu

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 Zwaen 
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Good post Kulu,

regarding to a free video I found the following enhancers:

Regarding the level:
1. How long stayed price at level? Shorter is better
2. How fast dit prices leave the level? Stronger is better
3. Levels on top of level enhances changes since more supply is available.

Regarding revisting the level again:
1. Is profit margin sufficient? 3:1 or better. This also take into account congestion before your entry.
2. Is it the first time the level gets revisited. How more times, the more supply will be “ eaten up”.

Additional enhancers:
1. Regarding higher timeframe, is the higher timeframe trend in your favor and no higher timeframe S/R “ in the way “.
2. Stock/Bond also in opposite direction?
3. Time of the day? ( for example trade in lunchtime is not good)
4. Bollinger bands. Comfirming your entry? ( for example short on touch upper band)
5. Globex high and low ( don’t know what this is, but I think he just means high or low of the day of yesterday: act as S/R)


But I indeed think taking all enhancers into account will not result in better results. It is the same as thinking using 10 indicators instead of 3 will enhance you're chart reading.

I was interested in Seiden because I wanted to gauge where a trend could posssible end. Most of the time, when you scroll to the left you will indeed see a level in the past where price really jumped out.

I think you are right when you say just practise and practise, it is the only way you will learn to spot good opportunities, let alone gain confidence in the setups.

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Good post Kulu,

regarding to a free video I found the following enhancers:

Regarding the level:
1. How long stayed price at level? Shorter is better
2. How fast dit prices leave the level? Stronger is better
3. Levels on top of level enhances changes since more supply is available.

Regarding revisting the level again:
1. Is profit margin sufficient? 3:1 or better. This also take into account congestion before your entry.
2. Is it the first time the level gets revisited. How more times, the more supply will be eaten up.

Additional enhancers:
1. Regarding higher timeframe, is the higher timeframe trend in your favor and no higher timeframe S/R in the way .
2. Stock/Bond also in opposite direction?
3. Time of the day? ( for example trade in lunchtime is not good)
4. Bollinger bands. Comfirming your entry? ( for example short on touch upper band)
5. Globex high and low ( dont know what this is, but I think he just means high or low of the day of yesterday: act as S/R)


But I indeed think taking all enhancers into account will not result in better results. It is the same as thinking using 10 indicators instead of 3 will enhance you're chart reading.

I was interested in Seiden because I wanted to gauge where a trend could posssible end. Most of the time, when you scroll to the left you will indeed see a level in the past where price really jumped out.

I think you are right when you say just practise and practise, it is the only way you will learn to spot good opportunities, let alone gain confidence in the setups.

I have other odds enhancers. I will post them when I get home this evening. Practice is key. Like I said, for me, I need to see at least two things before I can take that trade: a good profit margin, and a strong rejection at a level, and first pullback. Then when those two conditions are met, then do I look at other enhancers such as, where are we on a larger timeframe, time of the day for the instrument I am trading, prior day/week/month highs/lows/close (I look at the close too because I think unlike the open price, smart money determine the close of most candles, again, that's my opinion).time of the day for the instrument I am trading.

One of my problems when I started trading was the urge to be right. Sometime price will just move through these levels and stop you out. These don't bother me any more, because I am comfortable taking a loss as long as it's within my parameters. Take today for instance, I had my FDAX levels marked up, my limit order got filled and while I was away from my desk, my trailing stop got hit for a very small loss (I don't use trailing stops any more, but since I am trading at work, I use an ATM strategy and move my stops manually). However, when I got back to my desk, I re-enter the trade at the low of the supply zone. The finally hit my target for a nice gain.

Just keep looking at those charts and draw in your levels and take trades off of them. This is powerful information. You just need to be patience and know what you are looking for. Let price come to you. For this reason, it is wise to watch several markets. This way when something sets up, you can take the best setup. Sorry for the long message.

Kulu

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  #25 (permalink)
 kulu 
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And this was my second trade for today. Not a big trade, but it offered a more than 1:4 R2R ratio at a good level (levels on levels). With these I watch price first without just jumping in. I waited and as price was trading towards the top line of the top zone, I placed my limit order.

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 Zwaen 
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kulu View Post
And this was my second trade for today. Not a big trade, but it offered a more than 1:4 R2R ratio at a good level (levels on levels). With these I watch price first without just jumping in. I waited and as price was trading towards the top line of the top zone, I placed my limit order.

Long posts are often better :-)
Interesting :-) But that meant you went short on the 3th touch, instead of the first ?! ( on YM 09-11)

Btw I looked at the YM 09-11 and saw I big supply level 11800-11900, dating back from august 4th.
Do you agree with that observation?

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Long posts are often better :-)
Interesting :-) But that meant you went short on the 3th touch, instead of the first ?! ( on YM 09-11)

Btw I looked at the YM 09-11 and saw I big supply level 11800-11900, dating back from august 4th.
Do you agree with that observation?

I didn't place a limit order on that one, I let price trade in again because it wouldn't have been the first time hitting the lower level. I was interested in taking the trade in the upper level (level on levels) for a reduced risk trade.

I guess price on both FDAX and YM did finally reach the lower demand levels. Didn't have the patience to hold since I had meetings. I just wanted to take my profit and be done. Two trades like this make my weekly goal.

I see the level you are talking about, however, I like the one above it that I have shown better. Look at how price gaped into that area, looked like supply and demand were in balance and then bam, down it went. I will be watching this level whenever price gets back there.

Have a good weekend.

Kulu

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 kulu 
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Here is some more information I gathered. I hope it helps someone.

Kulu

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 Zwaen 
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kulu View Post
I didn't place a limit order on that one, I let price trade in again because it wouldn't have been the first time hitting the lower level. I was interested in taking the trade in the upper level (level on levels) for a reduced risk trade.

I guess price on both FDAX and YM did finally reach the lower demand levels. Didn't have the patience to hold since I had meetings. I just wanted to take my profit and be done. Two trades like this make my weekly goal.

I see the level you are talking about, however, I like the one above it that I have shown better. Look at how price gaped into that area, looked like supply and demand were in balance and then bam, down it went. I will be watching this level whenever price gets back there.

Have a good weekend.

Kulu

Hey Kulu, thanks.
I see what you mean.
Btw I found the same information last week (same pictures ) with good old friend google as you uploaded in the doc files
Could you tell me, would the level displayed in the chart also be a " good" level:

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Hey Kulu, thanks.
I see what you mean.
Btw I found the same information last week (same pictures ) with good old friend google as you uploaded in the doc files
Could you tell me, would the level displayed in the chart also be a " good" level:

@ Zwaen

I think you could tighten up the supply zone just a little bit (make the lower line of the zone line up with the low of the candles closer to the origin on of the decline). But it looks ok. I don't go down any lower than 15M.

Here are my trades from today. TF was stopped out for -23 ticks, CL was good for +110 ticks, and YM was good for +37 ticks.

Thanks, Kulu

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 kulu 
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Since I trade the EURO, I watch the Dollar index. I like to see the DX reach supply/Demand when the EURO reaches Demand/Supply for confluence (odd enhancers). Here are my level on DX that I am watching.

I hope this helps. These charts only show my interpretation of the material that sam presents and how I apply it to my trading. I have tried a lot of other methods/strategies, and this seems to be what's been consistent for me.

Kulu

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 kulu 
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And this is what I was watching on CL, but we never got to the supply zone. But that's ok, I am done for the day.

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 Zwaen 
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Thank you for your charts Kulu


Is my following observation correct: basically you look for a strong rally comming from:


Within a trend
1) A strong rally from any pullback ( chart1: A,B or C)

When a trend ends:
1) A V-top of bottom ( end of a leg) ( chart2:A)
2) A 123-pattern ( end of a leg ) (chart2:B)


Or in sideways market:
1) the highest low/high( chart3:A) or second high/low(123 pattern) (chart3:B)of a trading range.




(made charts myself in paint so excuse amaturistic look )

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Thank you for your charts Kulu


Is my following observation correct: basically you look for a strong rally comming from:


Within a trend
1) A strong rally from any pullback ( chart1: A,B or C)

When a trend ends:
1) A V-top of bottom ( end of a leg) ( chart2:A)
2) A 123-pattern ( end of a leg ) (chart2:B)


Or in sideways market:
1) the highest low/high( chart3:A) or second high/low(123 pattern) (chart3:B)of a trading range.




(made charts myself in paint so excuse amaturistic look )

For me, the main thing is how fast price moves away from an area. I need to see a momentum bar away from a small congestion area for me to be interested in an area. The idea behind price consolidating before one of those momentum bars is that there is an imbalance of supply and demand. So when prices consolidate, see the area marked on the attached chart, prices seem to be in equilibrium. However, looking closer at this picture shows that there are more sell orders at this level than buy orders. Why? Because prices could stay at the level, we went down hard. Again, why, because there were more sellers than buyer at that level. As soon as the last buy order was filled, there were no more buyers and prices fell from the level. I am sure you understand this process but I just wanted to reiterate.

This is all I am looking for on the chart. I look for big momentum bars, then look at the origin of that drop to see if it's a fresh level. That means it hasn't been touched yet. Pay attention to larger timeframe levels as well. So if say there is a supply level on the daily chart, and then you go to the 60M chart and see a nice demand level, just make sure that the 60M demand level is not right into the daily supply level. As long as you are aware of the daily supply level and there is enough profit margin between the short term demand level and the larger timeframe supply level, then by all means take the trade. Does this make sense.

I hope this answers your question.

Kulu

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  #35 (permalink)
 Zwaen 
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Hey Kulu,

I have some questions about the supply and demand zones. Since it is best to visualize, I put the questions in the charts below.
If you find time to answer the questions, thank you.

Kind regards,

Zwaen

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  #36 (permalink)
 Adamus 
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This is definitely interesting, so don't think I'm just being critical for the sake of it, but aren't these supply and demand zones more or less equally well represented by swing highs and swing lows? If you define a swing high as a high that is higher than the 2 bars to the left and the 2 bars to the right?

See the chart of the Euro, the same zone talked about earlier. The YTC PAT approach I'm talking about would put those two lines above and below it.

You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.
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 trendisyourfriend 
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Adamus View Post
This is definitely interesting, so don't think I'm just being critical for the sake of it, but aren't these supply and demand zones more or less equally well represented by swing highs and swing lows? If you define a swing high as a high that is higher than the 2 bars to the left and the 2 bars to the right?

See the chart of the Euro, the same zone talked about earlier. The YTC PAT approach I'm talking about would put those two lines above and below it.

What counts is where initiative activity took place and there is no better way to see that than by simply tracking wide range bars specially if they have as source a key market event or a news. You want to be aware of these wide range candles as they represent the * territory to be defended.

*Territorial animals defend areas that contain a nest, den or mating site and sufficient food resources for themselves and their young. Defense rarely takes the form of overt fights: more usually there is a highly noticeable display, which may be visual (as in the red breast of the robin), auditory (as in much bird song, or the calls of gibbons) or olfactory, through the deposit of scent marks.

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 Zwaen 
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Hello,

I put my view of the market(6E) today in chart below.
In my view quite a boring day, only 1 small trade. ( 11.40u)
Feel free to comment/discuss/see improvements/mistakes please.

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  #39 (permalink)
 Malvolio 
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Hi,

I shorted at 1,4080 and got out at the POC (50 area). I like the approach from Sam Seiden, Lance Beggs as well as Phil Newton too. (Regarding to Phil, there are a lot of videos from him at Forex Street. The Foreign Exchange Market).

Best regards,

Malvolio

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 kulu 
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Zwaen View Post
Hello,

I put my view of the market(6E) today in chart below.
In my view quite a boring day, only 1 small trade. ( 11.40u)
Feel free to comment/discuss/see improvements/mistakes please.

Here is my chart on 6E for today. I didn't take the trade that's marked but that was good for about 40 pips.

As far as your questions, those are great questions and I will attempt to answer them. I have seen these levels drawn both ways, including the wicks on both the lower and upper bound of your range. However, like @trendisyourfriend has eluded to in his post, you are more interested at the ORIGIN of the move. The stronger the drop from the level, the better the level. Some levels are just not good enough. So instead of placing a limit order there and just waiting to be filled, they are "watch it trades". By this I mean if the level is not "good enough" (take a look at the word document with the odd enhancers that I posted). Since the width of the zone is your risk, you just would have to pass on some of these if you draw your zones to include the wicks (to the top side for supply zone and to the downside for demand levels)

Again, the key is the origin of the move. The less time spent consolidating, the better the level (that means supply and demand are way way off balance that's why price spent just a little time at that level). As far as the size of the consolidation (fight between buyers and sellers), again the "smaller" the consolidation the better. But again, I don't have a time period or number of candles to qualify "small"

Just look at your charts, see a level, mark it and see if it worked out or not. Sooner than later you will start to differentiate between the good levels and the not so good levels. This stuff works, and you just need to practice it. I am sure you know that trading is about probabilities. It's not about being wrong or right. These setups are high probability setups. The reward usually far out weighs the risks and you don't need a very high win% to be profitable. However the higher the better.

Again, how do most of these big traders make net their millions a year? Example, your gross profit of $20M and your gross loss of $19M, and the you will have made a million dollars for the year. My point is, it's not about being right, it's a numbers game. Your winners have to be bigger than your losses to survive in this game. I personally think price action with support (demand) and resistance (supply) is key to being consistently profitable. This is my opinion though.

I hope I answered most of your questions. If not, please let me know and I will try to explain further.

Kulu

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 kulu 
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Malvolio View Post
Hi,

I shorted at 1,4080 and got out at the POC (50 area). I like the approach from Sam Seiden, Lance Beggs as well as Phil Newton too. (Regarding to Phil, there are a lot of videos from him at Forex Street. The Foreign Exchange Market).

Best regards,

Malvolio

@Malvolio

That was a nice trade. I had my supply zone right were you shorted but I had a meeting and didn't take the trade. Here is my chart. Again, there are many different ways to skin a cat, but I've found Sam Seiden and Lance Begg's (I like the trapped traders concept by Lance) material to work very well for me.

Kulu

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 kulu 
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This is for you @ Zwaen

I have seen you playing around with these short timeframes and when I was looking through my charts, I saw a nice demand zone on the YM. It was late in the day but I liked the level. This was my only trade of the day. Good for +40 ticks. This works on all timeframes. I prefer the 60M charts though.

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 Malvolio 
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kulu View Post
@ Malvolio

That was a nice trade. I had my supply zone right were you shorted but I had a meeting and didn't take the trade. Here is my chart. Again, there are many different ways to skin a cat, but I've found Sam Seiden and Lance Begg's (I like the trapped traders concept by Lance) material to work very well for me.

Kulu

Thanks, yes this concepts works very well. That is because the marcet structure has to do more with the autcion marcet theory than with the technical analysis which uses indicators. Price and volume are the important parts to look at.
Another approach that Im using was described best in a german book from Michael Voigt, who writes about how to trades trends (buy/sell in pullbacks, etc.). So if we have a strong trend day, waiting that price get to a supply/demand level would be the wrong way to trade (when these levels are far away from price). These leveles rather would represent a target zone.

Best regards,
Malvolio

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 Malvolio 
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Regarding the suplly/demand zones I wanted to state that exist role reverse zones too. These are zones which change their role: support becomes resistance and resistance support. You can see one of these (red zone) in the image attached. Watching what price does in a lower timeframe in this zones is important and would give a nice result in this particular example.

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 Adamus 
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For me, Lance's concept of 'trapped traders' sounds like an intuitive explanation of the way the market will move after interaction at support or resistance - or in one of the supply or demand zones that are discussed on this thread, I assume.

However though the trapped traders concept feels intuitive when reading about it, I find it really hard to learn and practice. I guess it's the paradigm shift I'm having trouble with: too frequently I end up looking at the setups in a purely technical way (candle patterns, trend strength etc) and I forget to analyse whether there might be trapped traders in there or not.

I am though training myself and currently I ask myself this question when looking at a potential setup:

What are the retail traders doing - in other words, people like me up to this point in my trading?

- those in drawdown who got the last setup wrong and want to exit at break-even

- those who are in profit at the last setup and should have exited at that price and thus want to exit there at the next opportunity

- those who missed the opportunity completely and want a second chance to enter, on the retrace

A better description of the concept would probably be easier for someone with more experience.

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 Zwaen 
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However though the trapped traders concept feels intuitive when reading about it, I find it really hard to learn and practice. I guess it's the paradigm shift I'm having trouble with: too frequently I end up looking at the setups in a purely technical way (candle patterns, trend strength etc) and I forget to analyse whether there might be trapped traders in there or not.

What I found helpful: when I was trading in sim, I also took a lot of setups which did not end a succesfull trade ( offcourse now also a lot ;-)). Then when I was in, price halted and would take my stop out. I think it can help when you see a particular setup, which you think will fail, and imagine a past experience where you thought " %$#& this ain't gonna work, got to get out ". And then you can take the other side.

An example attached in the chart. This morning I saw 6E made a pullback, but some voice in my head said : " this is not a trending morning, so it will probably fail". ( Offcourse we always have doubt, but just for purpose of showing to you ). See the chart for what I used to think when I was in such a situation before, bar for bar. The red numbers in leftcorners shows what happened bar for bar

But I must say, I didnt take that opposite trade although I expected the pullback to fail, haven't investigated it enough to trade it with confidence.

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 Zwaen 
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In addition, what I meant was that you can think in advance which setup will fail ( in this context, market invironment ) and wait for other traders ( novices )to take this low probability trade, and wait for it to fail. Where will they bail out?

Thus in a trend wait for countertrendtraders to try to pick the top or bottom. For a BOF( failed breakout ) wait for breakouttraders take the break-out which fails
So key lies in recognizing the failures in advance, identifying the weakness. Learn to see other traders take a certain trade, and see if that trade will fail. Offcourse sometimes the failure fails, and the original premisse resumes. Then also the failed failure can fail etc.
For example, a test of SR fails, and becomes a pullback with trend. When the pullback fails, 123 pattern traders jump in. When the 123 pattern fails, we can see a 3 swing pullback form. When this one fails maybe a flag/triangle forms....etc. And this phenomenon take place in every timeframe imho. Thats why we can see a simple pullback from on the 15 min chart, containing several swings, double tops/bottoms and other patterns on a smaller ( or higher) timeframe. Eg the 1 min chart.

You have to make yourselves a lot of these mistakes to recognize it are mistakes.

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 Malvolio 
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I think its important too to use lower time frame charts like range, tick or volume charts. So you can see what happens indside these zones.
Ive attached an example from the Bund, which reaches a supply area and in the lower time frame you can see how it formed a base there and broke out to the downside. When to enter is difficult, do you wait for a confirmation or do you enter exactly in these levels?

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Zwaen View Post
You have to make yourselves a lot of these mistakes to recognize it are mistakes.

I am envious. You have probably read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell? His book is the main reason I decided I could handle price action trading. He describes psychologically / scientifically the 'little voice' and how it comes about.

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 Zwaen 
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Envious? Well I don't earn 1$ with it LOL
But I think it is just something we all devolop with screentime, and I have a lot more hours to go btw

Just like if you have a new girlfriend. First you have to know each other, but when you know her for a while you sense " something is wrong" if even she closes her eyes some millisecond faster than normal, or her voice changes 1 tiny pitch.

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For me, Lance's concept of 'trapped traders' sounds like an intuitive explanation of the way the market will move after interaction at support or resistance - or in one of the supply or demand zones that are discussed on this thread, I assume.

I agree, it is kinda hard to pick those setups in a live market. I have not used them in my trading. All I remember was I liked the concept and it made intuitive sense. I have only been able to identify them on static charts.

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 kulu 
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Only 2 trades today. One stop on CL that I am totally mad about and a good short on FDAX. The short on CL was in the good for close to 40 ticks and then I let it come back for a full stop. I realized this is not acceptable and will not happen again. My rules call for a move to at least BE at 1:1 R2R. I didn't do it and paid for it.

The FDAX trade was actually a second trade on this instrument. The first occurred at 4AM EST. I didn't take that trade because the zone was too wide for my risk tolerance. Price barely even penetrated the zone (showing that this level was a very strong level). I then took a short of a supply zone for a +64 ticks.

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It is not clear to me whether recent posts are on-topic about YTC room or not. If they are, fine. If they are not about YTC or a review of the YTC services, please create a different thread to discuss them.

Thx,
Mike

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Quoting 
It is not clear to me whether recent posts are on-topic about YTC room or not.

Just a quick FYI @Big Mike: you say "room" - not sure if you meant 'trading room' like Al Brooks's, but YTC PAT is a pdf book and in fact Lance Beggs the author doesn't operate a trading room. There's just a blog, a newsletter and a website with docs and videos.


kulu View Post
I agree, it is kinda hard to pick those setups in a live market. I have not used them in my trading. All I remember was I liked the concept and it made intuitive sense. I have only been able to identify them on static charts.


OK, the concept of trapped traders: definitely a YTC PAT theme and one that sounds great. But I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, which I don't actually want to play but since no-one else is saying anything, here goes:

Trapped traders are possible to see everywhere and therefore no use.

Since the idea of locating trapped traders to benefit from their stop order flow is only provable (and actually only half provable) once there has been a price surge afterwards that might (or might not) have been their stops being run, does it make sense to try finding them?

I have no experience of locating trapped traders in real time so my analysis is perhaps worthless, but since I can imagine trapped traders in most locations (it's just people getting their trading wrong), why should the method lend me an edge?

This is especially true in forex where there is no volume available. How else can you detect when lots of break-out traders are jumping on the bandwagon?

Here's a chart of the Euro/USD forex in London time showing the morning session start. The blue line is the Asian session high which traditionally break-out traders like to watch, representing resistance.

The theory goes like this:

- the break-out traders watch the market picking up steam after Europe opens for business and it looks bullish. The Asian session was mixed - it went down and came back again, made a high around 5:00am and sold off a bit. Now it's heading back for that Asian high and the break-out traders won't be able to resist leaping in long as soon it makes a tick above that, either ignoring the impending round number at 1.37 or thinking it at least makes a good scalp.

- it's not all bullish though, note that red candle, #111 so there is weakness in the rally.

- the market breaks out (our traders go long hopefully)

- instead of pushing to the upside in a continuation of the rally, the market stutters. So we have weakness and a potential break-out failure which could trap all those longs, and our aim is to get short in order to ride their stops as the failure goes against them.

- now look at the 1 min chart. If you were a break-out trader (our intended victim), presumably being a good trader you would enter long and automatically place a stop behind you. Where would you put it? Automatically probably a good 10 points away. So let's assume that the little retrace back below the resistance didn't stop anyone out yet (the 2nd red candle on the 1min chart after the break-out). That means over the next 5 bars the break-out traders are still hoping that the market will rise up and away, so they'll be busy at this stage pulling up their stops to around probably 1.3685 but essentially anywhere under the resistance line. Plus later newby traders will have entered without stops and they'll bail out later after the pain gets too much, adding to the order flow.

- we either enter short on a stop at the same place, or if we are experienced, we work an entrance above the line when we see a trigger - a stall or a candle formation etc.

- BINGO! The market slumps far enough back under resistance to trap all those longs and hit the stops, and we're in too.

So, did that make sense? Fact or fantasy? If I can make up this kind of story for the interaction of price with any support or resistance level on the chart, I'll probably be wrong just as much as I'm right. So why would it lend me any kind of edge?

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 kulu 
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Big Mike View Post
It is not clear to me whether recent posts are on-topic about YTC room or not. If they are, fine. If they are not about YTC or a review of the YTC services, please create a different thread to discuss them.

Thx,
Mike

Mike,

Please feel free to delete my posts if they are not appropriate to this thread (or I can just remove them). I thought we were all discussing the YTC and supply and demand here.

kulu

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kulu View Post
Mike,

Please feel free to delete my posts if they are not appropriate to this thread (or I can just remove them). I thought we were all discussing the YTC and supply and demand here.

kulu

Kulu, you might be. And probably are. That is why I posted, as I said it was not clear to me so I just wanted to ask everyone stay on-topic. If you were already on-topic then no further action needed

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 kulu 
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Adamus View Post
Just a quick FYI @ Big Mike: you say "room" - not sure if you meant 'trading room' like Al Brooks's, but YTC PAT is a pdf book and in fact Lance Beggs the author doesn't operate a trading room. There's just a blog, a newsletter and a website with docs and videos.




OK, the concept of trapped traders: definitely a YTC PAT theme and one that sounds great. But I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, which I don't actually want to play but since no-one else is saying anything, here goes:

Trapped traders are possible to see everywhere and therefore no use.

Since the idea of locating trapped traders to benefit from their stop order flow is only provable (and actually only half provable) once there has been a price surge afterwards that might (or might not) have been their stops being run, does it make sense to try finding them?

I have no experience of locating trapped traders in real time so my analysis is perhaps worthless, but since I can imagine trapped traders in most locations (it's just people getting their trading wrong), why should the method lend me an edge?

This is especially true in forex where there is no volume available. How else can you detect when lots of break-out traders are jumping on the bandwagon?

Here's a chart of the Euro/USD forex in London time showing the morning session start. The blue line is the Asian session high which traditionally break-out traders like to watch, representing resistance.

The theory goes like this:

- the break-out traders watch the market picking up steam after Europe opens for business and it looks bullish. The Asian session was mixed - it went down and came back again, made a high around 5:00am and sold off a bit. Now it's heading back for that Asian high and the break-out traders won't be able to resist leaping in long as soon it makes a tick above that, either ignoring the impending round number at 1.37 or thinking it at least makes a good scalp.

- it's not all bullish though, note that red candle, #111 so there is weakness in the rally.

- the market breaks out (our traders go long hopefully)

- instead of pushing to the upside in a continuation of the rally, the market stutters. So we have weakness and a potential break-out failure which could trap all those longs, and our aim is to get short in order to ride their stops as the failure goes against them.

- now look at the 1 min chart. If you were a break-out trader (our intended victim), presumably being a good trader you would enter long and automatically place a stop behind you. Where would you put it? Automatically probably a good 10 points away. So let's assume that the little retrace back below the resistance didn't stop anyone out yet (the 2nd red candle on the 1min chart after the break-out). That means over the next 5 bars the break-out traders are still hoping that the market will rise up and away, so they'll be busy at this stage pulling up their stops to around probably 1.3685 but essentially anywhere under the resistance line. Plus later newby traders will have entered without stops and they'll bail out later after the pain gets too much, adding to the order flow.

- we either enter short on a stop at the same place, or if we are experienced, we work an entrance above the line when we see a trigger - a stall or a candle formation etc.

- BINGO! The market slumps far enough back under resistance to trap all those longs and hit the stops, and we're in too.

So, did that make sense? Fact or fantasy? If I can make up this kind of story for the interaction of price with any support or resistance level on the chart, I'll probably be wrong just as much as I'm right. So why would it lend me any kind of edge?

I do not trade the trapped traders concept. It just makes sense after price has moved. I was fascinated by it, but couldn't find the setups on a live market. Again, this is not to say it doesn't work, I just couldn't see it.

The supply and demand levels that YTC and Seiden use are my bread and butter. However, like Seiden said in one of his webinars, it's pretty scary when you are asked to place a sell/buy limit order when price is heading into the supply/demand zone. Today was a perfect example, an overall bullish day, price moving towards supply levels (CL, TF, EMD and FDAX). I just took one of the trades and took a breakeven trade on it.

Kulu

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 Adamus 
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kulu View Post
I do not trade the trapped traders concept. It just makes sense after price has moved. I was fascinated by it, but couldn't find the setups on a live market. Again, this is not to say it doesn't work, I just couldn't see it.

The supply and demand levels that YTC and Seiden use are my bread and butter. However, like Seiden said in one of his webinars, it's pretty scary when you are asked to place a sell/buy limit order when price is heading into the supply/demand zone. Today was a perfect example, an overall bullish day, price moving towards supply levels (CL, TF, EMD and FDAX). I just took one of the trades and took a breakeven trade on it.

Kulu


Hi Kulu

with some experience of trying to identify the trapped traders locations on charts in hindsight, I can say the main thing you look for is the big move when the stops get hit. Very often I don't see it, the setup might be logical but there is no distinctive blast-off out of the setup. So yes you are right, it must be difficult to see in real-time.

You have to look at the setup and determine for yourself where the trapped traders' stops would be. The absence of the big move though when that point is reached indicates that maybe your premise was wrong or at least that there's more risk that it'll go the other way, so you have the option to bail out without a loss.

That though is just the opinion of a neophyte with this strategy, so don't take my word for it. To be honest, I haven't read that in Lance Beggs' YTC PAT book, it's just my theory, but if it doesn't pan out that why I'm certainly going to ask him to say more on the subject. It certainly seems to work for him.

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 kulu 
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Hi Kulu

with some experience of trying to identify the trapped traders locations on charts in hindsight, I can say the main thing you look for is the big move when the stops get hit. Very often I don't see it, the setup might be logical but there is no distinctive blast-off out of the setup. So yes you are right, it must be difficult to see in real-time.

You have to look at the setup and determine for yourself where the trapped traders' stops would be. The absence of the big move though when that point is reached indicates that maybe your premise was wrong or at least that there's more risk that it'll go the other way, so you have the option to bail out without a loss.

That though is just the opinion of a neophyte with this strategy, so don't take my word for it. To be honest, I haven't read that in Lance Beggs' YTC PAT book, it's just my theory, but if it doesn't pan out that why I'm certainly going to ask him to say more on the subject. It certainly seems to work for him.

Thanks for your explanation. I just don't trade the setup for the reasons given above, but I like the idea. Maybe someday I will "get it" I just like my supply and demand levels. They get the job done for me.

Good day

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 Adamus 
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Hi,

resurrecting this thread again because it's exactly the subject I want to discuss.

Using support and resistance based on swing highs and swing lows, after several days trading in a range, I find the S/R levels get really cramped and I start deleting the old, stale levels that didn't generate any price interaction.

Sometimes I'll have 3 levels close together, within 20 pips, and it looks like they are all generating interaction. I keep thinking of these supply and demand zones. And in fact, the YTC PAT ebook says all S/R levels are zones really anyway and not just lines.

But having a strategy for a zone is not the same as having one for a line.

Generally speaking I wait for price to arrive at an S/R level and form a stall / consolidation range, generally 5 to 10 pips. Assuming I am confident about my bias for future trend direction, I'll try to get in at a good price in this range, the better the price the further the stop can be. Then hopefully soon price zooms off in my direction.

Otherwise, I wait for a trigger, e.g. an up/down twins bar formation or a Jap candlestick pattern, and I'll enter when that's complete, or in the worst case if my bias is strong or the RR looks good, I'll put a stop break-out entry order in.

That's all clear to me when the S/R level is a line, but what do I do when it's a zone? It seems to introduce a whole new set of factors to consider. If price has almost penetrated the zone and is stalling at the far edge, then great - but what if it's not? Doesn't that make the whole trade lower probability, if price has to fight further to emerge the other side?

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 Eric j 
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Adamus View Post
Hi,

resurrecting this thread again because it's exactly the subject I want to discuss.

Using support and resistance based on swing highs and swing lows, after several days trading in a range, I find the S/R levels get really cramped and I start deleting the old, stale levels that didn't generate any price interaction.

Sometimes I'll have 3 levels close together, within 20 pips, and it looks like they are all generating interaction. I keep thinking of these supply and demand zones. And in fact, the YTC PAT ebook says all S/R levels are zones really anyway and not just lines.

But having a strategy for a zone is not the same as having one for a line.

Generally speaking I wait for price to arrive at an S/R level and form a stall / consolidation range, generally 5 to 10 pips. Assuming I am confident about my bias for future trend direction, I'll try to get in at a good price in this range, the better the price the further the stop can be. Then hopefully soon price zooms off in my direction.

Otherwise, I wait for a trigger, e.g. an up/down twins bar formation or a Jap candlestick pattern, and I'll enter when that's complete, or in the worst case if my bias is strong or the RR looks good, I'll put a stop break-out entry order in.

That's all clear to me when the S/R level is a line, but what do I do when it's a zone? It seems to introduce a whole new set of factors to consider. If price has almost penetrated the zone and is stalling at the far edge, then great - but what if it's not? Doesn't that make the whole trade lower probability, if price has to fight further to emerge the other side?

@Adamus , can you pass along a copy of the YTC Ebook ? If not its no problem but Ill keep up with this thread as time permits , thanks .

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 Adamus 
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Eric j View Post
@ Adamus , can you pass along a copy of the YTC Ebook ? If not its no problem but Ill keep up with this thread as time permits , thanks .

Hi Big Game Hunter, I can't, it's copyrighted material. Most of the stuff though is procedural, do this, do that, checklist tick etc, the actual meat of the trading technicalities is all covered on his website. The S/R method he describes is simply based on a higher timeframe chart using swing highs and swing lows to define the market structure, i.e. where price is likely to do something like stall or break-out. His swing highs/lows are defined as 2 bars on either side must be lower for a swing high, higher for a swing low. Works most of the time, gets crowded after a long trading range.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Adamus View Post
...The S/R method he describes is simply based on a higher timeframe chart using swing highs and swing lows to define the market structure, i.e. where price is likely to do something like stall or break-out. His swing highs/lows are defined as 2 bars on either side must be lower for a swing high, higher for a swing low. Works most of the time, gets crowded after a long trading range.

I think looking at each pivots to define S&R is a bit clumsy. Unless you can confirm there is supply or demand left at a level, there is no need to record every pivot. Would be curious to see how you would have marked the ES Yesterday given how supply/demand moved.

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 Cloudy 
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I couldn't handle drawing lines from the previous session. Too tedious and ambiguous for me. So thanks to cjbooth's introduction of the kwik-pop and JS Services indicators, I let them do the s/r lines update for me. I also use the "jhLTDSetup" indicator used in Sharky's method in one of his templates. I found it helpful in generally showing when price is contained in a trading range consolidation or showing when price has broken out and may be trending.

How is this all related to YTC? I have YTC PAT and am still reading it but I like his ideas about what "objectively" defines an ongoing trend based on pivots of prior swing highs/lows or a greater than 1-2-3 pattern into a trading range. Just that I let KwikPop's "pivot2color" indicator draw the pivots for me and let JS Services draw support and resistance lines for me updated daily through their "quantkey" connection software.

As to what to do when you're in a trade and it slows down at a resistance level? I guess you could settle for taking it off for a smaller profit. Or take half contracts off if you're using more than than 1 contract, then wait and see, and then you have a breakeven/free trade.

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 Adamus 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
I think looking at each pivots to define S&R is a bit clumsy. Unless you can confirm there is supply or demand left at a level, there is no need to record every pivot. Would be curious to see how you would have marked the ES Yesterday given how supply/demand moved.

How supply/demand moved? Do they move? You've lost me on that one. But I agree with what you say about clumsy S/R levels. I look back over them at the end of the day to see how they affected price, and remove them if they didn't. It works for now in my limited testing but I can't say it's a bottle-neck for my performance - like you say, it's just clumsy.

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 masood 
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Cloudy View Post
I couldn't handle drawing lines from the previous session. Too tedious and ambiguous for me. So thanks to cjbooth's introduction of the kwik-pop and JS Services indicators, I let them do the s/r lines update for me. I also use the "jhLTDSetup" indicator used in Sharky's method in one of his templates. I found it helpful in generally showing when price is contained in a trading range consolidation or showing when price has broken out and may be trending.

How is this all related to YTC? I have YTC PAT and am still reading it but I like his ideas about what "objectively" defines an ongoing trend based on pivots of prior swing highs/lows or a greater than 1-2-3 pattern into a trading range. Just that I let KwikPop's "pivot2color" indicator draw the pivots for me and let JS Services draw support and resistance lines for me updated daily through their "quantkey" connection software.

As to what to do when you're in a trade and it slows down at a resistance level? I guess you could settle for taking it off for a smaller profit. Or take half contracts off if you're using more than than 1 contract, then wait and see, and then you have a breakeven/free trade.

Would you be kind enough to give some insight to kwik pop & js service combo worth the monthly premium. I know about kwik pop pivot formation which can also be figured out with zig zag or price action swing indicators

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 Adamus 
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Cloudy View Post
I couldn't handle drawing lines from the previous session. Too tedious and ambiguous for me. So thanks to cjbooth's introduction of the kwik-pop and JS Services indicators, I let them do the s/r lines update for me. I also use the "jhLTDSetup" indicator used in Sharky's method in one of his templates. I found it helpful in generally showing when price is contained in a trading range consolidation or showing when price has broken out and may be trending.

How is this all related to YTC? I have YTC PAT and am still reading it but I like his ideas about what "objectively" defines an ongoing trend based on pivots of prior swing highs/lows or a greater than 1-2-3 pattern into a trading range. Just that I let KwikPop's "pivot2color" indicator draw the pivots for me and let JS Services draw support and resistance lines for me updated daily through their "quantkey" connection software.

As to what to do when you're in a trade and it slows down at a resistance level? I guess you could settle for taking it off for a smaller profit. Or take half contracts off if you're using more than than 1 contract, then wait and see, and then you have a breakeven/free trade.

I can see the advantage of using an indicator for the S/R lines but I like to remove lines when they prove ineffective.

YTC PAT details all this. It's a good programme - more so than a reading book - and I'm trying to be dogmatic about implementing it, but there is a lot of stuff in there. But then, there's a lot of stuff in trading.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Adamus View Post
I can see the advantage of using an indicator for the S/R lines but I like to remove lines when they prove ineffective.

YTC PAT details all this. It's a good programme - more so than a reading book - and I'm trying to be dogmatic about implementing it, but there is a lot of stuff in there. But then, there's a lot of stuff in trading.

Maybe this indicator could help on a secondary chart:
Fuzzy Pivots | Critical Data Associates, Inc.

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 Big Mike 
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masood chughtai View Post
Would you be kind enough to give some insight to kwik pop & js service combo worth the monthly premium. I know about kwik pop pivot formation which can also be figured out with zig zag or price action swing indicators

Not in this thread.

This thread is for reviewing "YTC Price Action Trader" only.

Let's keep things organized.

Mike

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 Cloudy 
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I wanted to bring YTC up again. ( www.yourtradingcoach.com) I've been reading the material and found it great price action discretionary stuff. At the end of YTC PAT Lance Beggs does say similar to what Al Brooks says that one can't be an instant profitable trader right after reading the material. It take practice and experience. At least Beggs has more suggestions on how to get to that level through after market review and a practice simulation plan. His setups also have more delineated steps while Brook's setups are more vague. However there are Brook's setups not covered by YTC PAT and vice versa. And YTC PAT has more emphasis on trading off of s/r lines than BPA.

There is also an addendum product called "YTC Scalper" where Lance Beggs has modified YTC PAT for the 1min chart using range bars and also a simplified checklist procedure based on the YTC PAT. The setups are still mainly based on YTC PAT and YTC PAT is a pre-requisite read for YTC scalper. Beggs claims to trade his scalper system for 1 or 2 hours so he can be done with his trading and have time for other commitments.

In review, I found YTC PAT and YTC Scalper a great intro to price action, a possible alternative or supplementary material to Al Brook's BPA series. It's also a complete trader's package by itself as YTC PAT covers a comprehensive trading education and has instructive sections on trading psychology, after market review, and trading plans with close to a thousand pages of material. There is also a free blog updated at least weekly by Beggs which includes plenty of examples and charts , far more than most other trading instruction sites.

If one wants 3rd party s/r lines here are a few great suggestions:
As for kwik-pop, js-lines combo s/r lines, one can find info in the products section on KwikPop Day Trading Software
www.jsservices.com , for js lines only.
ToTheTick | Support and Resistance Trading - Futures and Forex
Day Trading the Indices Using Support and Resistance

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 anituchka 
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Ive been learning to trade and trading for the past 2.5 years (on and off). I read at least 30 trading books, you name it, I probably read it.

I started with indicators and then realized that price action was the way to go (for me). I spent considerable time (at least 6 months) reading Al Brooks new books and trying to make sense of them. I liked them (clearly the guy knows what he is writing about) but I have been overwhelmed by the amount of detail he provides in his 3 volumes, yet lack of concrete steps of how to implement what he teaches.

What I have been trying to find, unsuccessfully, is a book that brings together everything and provides me with a STRUCTURE and a detailed plan of what to do, and not simply teaches me technical analysis or price action or psychology stuff.

I have been trading without a clear set of procedures and as a result could not become consistently profitable. I did not have a clear manual of what I do in a specific situation (I did have a trading plan but it did not cover all the situations that can happen, like recovery after a significant loss, step by step, what you do to get back to normal). I was even thinking of writing procedures down myself but didnt have enough creativity.

Then I stumbled upon Lance Beggs and his e-book: YTC Price Action Trader. What a great piece of work!!! His 5 strategies are simple to follow and yet they are described in enough detail, but much easier to understand that Brooks books.

By the way, thank you Adamus for letting me know about Lance Beggs (I actually learned about him here on this thread)

What was priceless to me is the detailed trading plan (template with suggestions) and set of procedures/routines pretty much for every situation you can imagine. He was a helicopter pilot in the past, so following a detailed checklist is in his nature. He developed detailed checklists for trading and shared them in his book.

I am surprised his books are not more popular on trading websites/forums. His name is known but not well-known, which is a pity for all beginners-traders and struggling trades who lack a clear pathway. And no, I am not affiliated with him in any way.

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 Nicolas11 
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Hi @anituchka,

As you, I have an excellent opinion about Lance Beggs' YTC Price Action Trader. I think that it is a very good introduction to price action, but also to trader's organization.

Do not feel forced to answer, but have you succeeded in trading YTC PAT methods and setups profitably, or do you use them as "background information" for other trading methods?

Thanks,

Nicolas

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 Adamus 
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anituchka View Post
I am surprised his books are not more popular on trading websites/forums. His name is known but not well-known, which is a pity for all beginners-traders and struggling trades who lack a clear pathway. And no, I am not affiliated with him in any way.

I can't explain either why he's not more popular. I guess a lot of people don't need the systematic approach - or think they don't need it.

By the way after months of trying, I'm still struggling with trading - YTC PAT is not the silver bullet. It's great and it gives you the framework to build on, but it doesn't stop you (or better said, me) from making mistakes in the development process as a trader.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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I am glad to see some positive comments about Lance Beggs' material. I bought his YTC PAT's methodology a few months ago and was agreeably surprised by the quality and depth of his material. I was a bit sceptic at the beginning as i knew learning a system or approach from a book is quite a feat but he succeeds to convey his ideas and principles in a clear and concise manner. I use a lot of his ideas in my own trading and have mixed it with the principles of auction theory i had learned over the years.

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 anituchka 
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I am doing sim-trading now, market-replay and simple bar-by-bar "trading" (just clicking bar by bar, and putting entries and exits). I am not in a rush to start live trading this time

I can see big improvement since I started to use his strategies. At least my backtesting gives me positive results month-after-month.

Right now I am in the process of actually writing a detailed trading plan and procedures manual. This is where his material is priceless to me. I tend to get too emotional and after a couple of losses can go on tilt so I do need to have a very clear structure of what I can do and what is not to be done.


Nicolas11 View Post
Hi @anituchka,

As you, I have an excellent opinion about Lance Beggs' YTC Price Action Trader. I think that it is a very good introduction to price action, but also to trader's organization.

Do not feel forced to answer, but have you succeeded in trading YTC PAT methods and setups profitably, or do you use them as "background information" for other trading methods?

Thanks,

Nicolas


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 Adamus 
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I find myself getting emotional after only one trade - whether it's a winner or loser. Losing leads to risk-avoidance, and winning leads to over-confidence. OK, over-confidence isn't one single emotion, it's more difficult to nail down than that. In fact emotions generally difficult to nail down and recognise. Generally if i can recognise it, I can compensate for it alright - recognising it before I make a stupid decision is the difficult bit.

In YTC PAT I don't think Mr Beggs offers anything directly to help, but he puts us in the position where we're very likely to find way to deal with it, i.e. with his structure, his emphasis on review and so on.

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toucan94506
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Nice thread, keep up the good work


cheers

toucan

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  #78 (permalink)
 tulanch 
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anyone trading his scalping technique... which is what he indicates he trades now....

PAT is still the foundation of the method - its the foundation of it all in my opinion

the scalping approach uses a very low range with a minute based HTF

see the setup formation in the HTF

take the trades on the lower time frame

concept is that price is within a price channel and he has come up with a measure/gauge of the channel

basically you buy low and sell high where the sides of the channel indicates the extreme limits.

if you look at any price channel you start to see where pull backs tend to form before they continue with trend

and you see where reversals form and swing the other way

after some research you see where the high probability trades are....

As with most Beggs things, easy to understand, implement, and follow.

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toucan94506
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Tulanch.... I think indextrader7 uses beggs scalping technique, but i'm not positive given that I have only read through beggs website and not read the scalping book.


one other in big mikes trading forum, not sure of the name, has been studying the scalping but not trading live.


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 YertleTurtle 
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As far as I can tell no one is profitably running this system on futures.io (formerly BMT) - is this accurate?

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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YertleTurtle View Post
As far as I can tell no one is profitably running this system on futures.io (formerly BMT) - is this accurate?

You may want to check out my old journal. The roots of my old trading method were firmly based on YTC, and yes I did consider it to be profitable however it is by no means a 'system'. YTC is very much about identifying market state and using discretion and experience to trade. Trying to automate YTC into a 'system' is the wrong way to go in my opinion.

I no longer trade a YTC based methodology, but that is purely as a result of a natural progression i've found myself taking and a move to something that i've found to better suit my psychology. YTC is however excellent and Lance Beggs really knows his stuff.

Old journal: PASR Journal

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 Adamus 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
You may want to check out my old journal. The roots of my old trading method were firmly based on YTC, and yes I did consider it to be profitable however it is by no means a 'system'. YTC is very much about identifying market state and using discretion and experience to trade. Trying to automate YTC into a 'system' is the wrong way to go in my opinion.

I no longer trade a YTC based methodology, but that is purely as a result of a natural progression i've found myself taking and a move to something that i've found to better suit my psychology. YTC is however excellent and Lance Beggs really knows his stuff.

Old journal: PASR Journal

I read your journal last year - I wondered why you stopped. You have a great way of analysing your progress, it was interesting to see how you approached it. Quite methodical, in the same way that YTC PAT is too, I thought.

Did you move on to something similar also based on S/R, PA and traps, or did you go more technical?

@YertleTurtle I also use YTC PAT methods - not the scalper methods. I am not currently trading live, i.e. my last attempt was not profitable. That though was less to do with the method and more to do with my decision-making process.

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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Adamus View Post
I read your journal last year - I wondered why you stopped. You have a great way of analysing your progress, it was interesting to see how you approached it. Quite methodical, in the same way that YTC PAT is too, I thought.

Did you move on to something similar also based on S/R, PA and traps, or did you go more technical?

@YertleTurtle I also use YTC PAT methods - not the scalper methods. I am not currently trading live, i.e. my last attempt was not profitable. That though was less to do with the method and more to do with my decision-making process.

Hi Adamus,

What I found after a year of trading full time is that perhaps my biggest psychological challenge is my risk averse nature (when it comes to trading), along with my need to wait for too much confirmation before acting. Over trading seems to be the biggest problem for most people based on my observations,...however im the complete opposite in that I will come up with every excuse possible to not take a trade if it doesn't look perfect.

In a nutshell my prior trading with YTC involved identifying important levels and market structure pre-market, but then trading the developing intra-day structure as it developed. Essentially looking for double tops/bottoms, breakout-pullbacks, traps etc as the market moved between the larger pre-defined SR levels.

The problem with the above approach (based upon my risk averse monkey), is that it involved a lot of intra-day decision making as to whether or not a setup was valid or not. Is this really a double top? Has this really pulled back enough? This doesn't look right. etc. My performance was suffering not because of YTC (which is excellent), but because of me.

So to cut a long story short, I started to realize that I am far more comfortable coming up with a game plan pre-market based on context, market structure and the 'story' that the market has been telling recently. All my areas are now defined pre-market and I simply enter when the market reaches them. I will sometimes have limit orders waiting in the market an hour ahead of time to get in. I no longer take trades based on the current days developing price action,...all trades are defined ahead of time based on prior days/weeks action.

To this end, I now use volume profile and auction market theory extensively. Not because VP is an entry/exit method which in my opinion it is certainly not, but because it helps structure the market and tell a story. I now define my trades before the market opens based on the story

Sorry for the long winded response. Just thought I would give a proper answer so it didn't seem like I was jumping to VP because it was the cool new thing on the block. I gravitated to it specifically because of how it reduces my need to rely on the current day's developing price action, which is where my risk averse monkey comes out to play.

With all that said, for someone who enjoys trading based off of the current day's developing price action and who is suited to it psychologically,...I can't recommend YTC highly enough.

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  #84 (permalink)
 Adamus 
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Not long-winded at all. All makes sense. You're using volume profiles to find the levels? (or does that question make me look stupid?)

Using volume (and switching from forex to futures) is one of the options that lies ahead for me if my latest approach that I'm currently working on doesn't pay off - although higher on my list is lengthening my time-frame. I am trying to develop the ability to work the YTC PAT methodology on the 3-min time-frame but my last foray showed me I wasn't experienced enough to keep it all together on a 3-min chart. On the hourly chart though, that could be a totally different story.

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  #85 (permalink)
 DarkPoolTrading 
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Adamus View Post
Not long-winded at all. All makes sense. You're using volume profiles to find the levels? (or does that question make me look stupid?)

Yes my areas of interest are determined using the profiles,...but more importantly I use them to tell me a story of what the market is trying to do. I try to trade with the story.


Adamus
Using volume (and switching from forex to futures) is one of the options that lies ahead for me if my latest approach that I'm currently working on doesn't pay off - although higher on my list is lengthening my time-frame. I am trying to develop the ability to work the YTC PAT methodology on the 3-min time-frame but my last foray showed me I wasn't experienced enough to keep it all together on a 3-min chart. On the hourly chart though, that could be a totally different story.

Good luck. That's what's great about YTC, it really doesn't matter about timeframe, it's about understanding the price action. So you can scale up or down the time frame as needed.

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  #86 (permalink)
 KahunaDog 
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Darkpooltrading...
I have found the same thing. Looking solely at intraday price action confuses the trees for the forest. Drawing and identifying trade zones and no trade zones are a big key. But intraday I can and have seen countless times smart money violate known s /r zones to run stops.
That is why I want to learn VP.
I have conversed online with Ytc (Lance) on charts or ideas hes posted. Though do not have his book. Many of his trades and PA is similar to what I have scrounged up in pa and have used.

Which VP or system on orderflow have you focused on? I am only familiar with some of the basic theory. I have been debating on Jigsaw and Marketdelta. The footprint chart is the easiest for me to id with. I have the NoBs book on orderflow watched his and other videos. But am wondering on the next step. I was thinking a room like Marketdelta or jigsaw would be the next step. Any suggestions?

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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KahunaDog View Post
Darkpooltrading...
I have found the same thing. Looking solely at intraday price action confuses the trees for the forest. Drawing and identifying trade zones and no trade zones are a big key. But intraday I can and have seen countless times smart money violate known s /r zones to run stops.
That is why I want to learn VP.
I have conversed online with Ytc (Lance) on charts or ideas hes posted. Though do not have his book. Many of his trades and PA is similar to what I have scrounged up in pa and have used.

Which VP or system on orderflow have you focused on? I am only familiar with some of the basic theory. I have been debating on Jigsaw and Marketdelta. The footprint chart is the easiest for me to id with. I have the NoBs book on orderflow watched his and other videos. But am wondering on the next step. I was thinking a room like Marketdelta or jigsaw would be the next step. Any suggestions?

Hi @KahunaDog,

This thread is to review YTC and we're getting a bit off topic so ill keep this brief. Feel free to pm me if you want more info.

For the time being my methodology doesn't incorporate any orderflow analysis. This is primarily because im trying to not focus too much on the intraday developments and choose to instead trade with the larger picture. That is what VP gives me. Essentially I trade using principles of auction market theory, balance vs imbalance, value etc. That's not to say I wont add order flow analysis into the mix in the future, but for the time being my focus is on the forest, not the trees

As far as where to start, reading Mind over Markets is generally the recommended kick off point. After that you'll have an idea if this way of trading is something that appeals to you and can then start looking into it more deeply.

Coming back to YTC, I have his book and even though I no longer trade with his method it remains one of the best trading books i've ever read. It doesn't just cover the methodology, it also goes into good detail on trading as a business, how to use journals effectively (multiple types of journals used for different things), market structure etc.

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 contrails 
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I have taken a quick glance at YTC books (including scalping) but i figured that he does not take in account trend line and channels as potential S/R lines unlike PAT {Mack} method.


Any YTC'ers can comment on this

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 Adamus 
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You are totally correct. He uses previous swing highs and swing lows to establish horizontal support and resistance levels. He doesn't provide any other techniques.

I'm not familiar with Mack so I can't make a comparison, but on this point, I'd say that YTC PAT is pretty much a complete package, and it would be up to you to add or remove any part of it as you felt fit and you would still benefit from the rest to almost the same degree.

You could check out his website to see whether he's done any articles specifically on using trendlines or channels.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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contrails View Post
I have taken a quick glance at YTC books (including scalping) but i figured that he does not take in account trend line and channels as potential S/R lines unlike PAT {Mack} method.


Any YTC'ers can comment on this

I would guess Mack's method is easier as his setups are of two kinds: second entry or failed second entry at a trend line or EMA(20). YTC trades at horizontal levels of S&R based on strength and weakness analysis a la Wyckoff. YTC as many others considers trend lines as an illusion.

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 Adamus 
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I would guess Mack's method is easier as his setups are of two kinds: second entry or failed second entry at a trend line or EMA(20). YTC trades at horizontal levels of S&R based on strength and weakness analysis a la Wyckoff. YTC as many others considers trend lines as an illusion.

But they are all illusory. YTC PAT works because the support and weakness levels are self-fulfilling prophecies. The more traders who see the illusion, the better the prophecy is fulfilled.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Both approaches are valid but with MACK i think you get more feeback from the author and his pupils here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

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 contrails 
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Mack is geared for day trades, where as YTC setups is for longer time frames as per YTC Beggs himself. YTC has scalper set up which uses Keltlner Channel (if I recall) which is in line with trend lines

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 Adamus 
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contrails View Post
......where as YTC setups is for longer time frames ..........

As you say his YTC Scalper stuff is based on very short time-frames or tick charts.

However the YTC PAT course books are based around 30min time-frame usage for finding S/R, and 3min time-frame for trading, and to a lesser extent also switching to the 1min time-frame for timing entries.

Lance Beggs has written articles on his website relating to longer time-frames e.g. daily bars, and he is always stressing that the PA techniques are applicable across the board. I think he likes to encourage traders from all time-frames to read his stuff...

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 billsingh 
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Adamus View Post
Not long-winded at all. All makes sense. You're using volume profiles to find the levels? (or does that question make me look stupid?)

Using volume (and switching from forex to futures) is one of the options that lies ahead for me if my latest approach that I'm currently working on doesn't pay off - although higher on my list is lengthening my time-frame. I am trying to develop the ability to work the YTC PAT methodology on the 3-min time-frame but my last foray showed me I wasn't experienced enough to keep it all together on a 3-min chart. On the hourly chart though, that could be a totally different story.

Thanks Darkpool for explaining you strategy/method.

Hi @Adamus,
I am in the same boat. Starting on trading futures and learning Market profile from profiletraders Reza. It is not going to be easy but put my 1st month in and basically know the terminology now. But Profile (VP or MP) only tells you bias of the market, you still need some scalper method to trade in my view. Since Darkpool knows both you must be using unconsciously . Anyway I thought put my 2 cents in.

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 sheldonxp 
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I see this thread is pretty old now, but I recently came across Lance Beggs. Does anyone here still trade his method? Seeing success with it?

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