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Innovative-Trading-solutions-online.com review

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  #1 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
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I am a Renko bar fiend; I have used regular Renko, SBS, and Better Renko. I think they are all good but when I came across our own RJay’s site to check out his volume stuff, I stumbled across his Hybrid Renko Bars. I will never bash a vendor because half the time it doesn’t work out it’s my fault anyway and I have always thought if you don’t have anything nice to say, why say anything at all (and who wants to battle w/ the vendors and/or get sued anyway)? I have to give these Hybrid Renko Bars a huge thumbs up. They do a great job of wiping out the noise, they print clean, it doesn’t take my charts forever to load up, and they will survive and print correctly even during the oil inventory report (CL). I bought the bars before he was even offering a trial; the $150.00 I spent was well worth it. I like this product a lot. Just my two cents. Attached is a 4 & 8 tick; I prefer the 8 personally.

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Care to explain the differences between this bar type and the other ones available on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Mike

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  #4 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
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Big Mike View Post
Care to explain the differences between this bar type and the other ones available on futures.io (formerly BMT)?

Mike

Here are some screen shots, a picture is worth a thousand words, at least to an ape like me (I am a lousy writer ) I figured I would throw up some screen shots minus my indicators and just let you an others draw your own conclusion. I just really like the way these things "smooth things out", at least for me. Bottom line, for ME, they are just easier on my eyes and "flow" (as I call it) better. The shots I provided are all from like 8:15 - 15:15 MST, I didn't want to cherry pick a chat. Any questions, please let me know. For me it's a visual thing.

I would have done Median Renko, but I have never been able to get them to work for me.

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  #5 (permalink)
 randyjb 
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Hmm. .thanks for throwing up the chart comparisons. I wasn't even aware RJay had his own site. I shall have to zip over there and take a closer look but these bars of his look more like a cross between Renko and HeikenAshi bars from just looking at your charts, as each of the successive bodies starts painting from about the midpoint of the prior bar, etc.

I will go and have a look.

Randy
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 Rayzor 
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See how Better Renko skips all over? Other than the "calming of the noise" these bars print well even during the Oil Inventory

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  #7 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
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Rayzor View Post
See how Better Renko skips all over? Other than the "calming of the noise" these bars print well even during the Oil Inventory

have to agree, rjay did a great job.

but as far as better renko skip all over. that's exactly why I prefer better renko and kase bars. they don't produce phantom bars like normal renkos and range bars. they only plot where a trade actually took place. might not look pretty, but shows the reality.

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  #8 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
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Silvester17 View Post
have to agree, rjay did a great job.

but as far as better renko skip all over. that's exactly why I prefer better renko and kase bars. they don't produce phantom bars like normal renkos and range bars. they only plot where a trade actually took place. might not look pretty, but shows the reality.

Thanks Sly, that is an interesting perspective IU have never thought of.

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  #9 (permalink)
 monpere 
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Rayzor View Post
See how Better Renko skips all over? Other than the "calming of the noise" these bars print well even during the Oil Inventory

@ RJay, Can these Hybrid Renko, and Trend bars be backtested like Better Renko? and do they show the real open and close of each bar or phantom open prices like Heiken Ashi?

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  #10 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
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monpere View Post
Can these Hybrid bars be backtested like Better Renko?

Monepere, I am going to have to refer you to RJay (vendor) for that one. I do not back test, only forward.

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  #11 (permalink)
 RJay 
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monpere View Post
@ RJay, Can these Hybrid Renko, and Trend bars be backtested like Better Renko? and do they show the real open and close of each bar or phantom open prices like Heiken Ashi?

Hi monpere,

Like Rayzor, I don't back test any of my strategies, and I don't recommend back testing either of these bar types.

I do all my testing live or in market replay.

As you have surmised, one of the characteristics of these bars is a calculated "Open" value to each bar.

This is by design to display a cleaner looking chart.

RJay

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 monpere 
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RJay View Post
Hi monpere,

Like Rayzor, I don't back test any of my strategies, and I don't recommend back testing either of these bar types.

I do all my testing live or in market replay.

As you have surmised, one of the characteristics of these bars is a calculated "Open" value to each bar.

This is by design to display a cleaner looking chart.

RJay

My trading methodology enters on bar open, or more precisely 1 tick above/below the current bar close. So, anyone or strategy using entry on bar close method will not be able to use these bar types because there entry will not be at the price shown on the chart. That's also why I cannot use HeikenAshi, and also the reason why eman added an option to show the real open to his momentum bar type.

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 RJay 
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monpere View Post
My trading methodology enters on bar open, or more precisely 1 tick above/below the current bar close. So, anyone or strategy using entry on bar close method will not be able to use these bar types because there entry will not be at the price shown on the chart. That's also why I cannot use HeikenAshi, and also the reason why eman added an option to show the real open to his momentum bar type.

Hi monpere,

I understand what you are saying.

Interestingly, I initially designed these bar types specifically for automated trading.

So how can you enter a trade on new bar open? The beauty of these 2 chart types is that the bars minus the tails are the always the same size. because they are the same size, the price/tick value for the opening of a new bar is always known.
The new bar open is always the close of the current bar plus one tick long, minus one tick short depending on market direction.

RJay

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 monpere 
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RJay View Post
Hi monpere,

I understand what you are saying.

Interestingly, I initially designed these bar types specifically for automated trading.

So how can you enter a trade on new bar open? The beauty of these 2 chart types is that the bars minus the tails are the always the same size. because they are the same size, the price/tick value for the opening of a new bar is always known.
The new bar open is always the close of the current bar plus one tick long, minus one tick short depending on market direction.

RJay

Interesting, that's a new ball game. Now I'll have to take the trial and see how they perform with my strategies. How long is the trial?

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 RJay 
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monpere View Post
Interesting, that's a new ball game. Now I'll have to take the trial and see how they perform with my strategies. How long is the trial?

Trials are usually 7 to 10 days.

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 bluemele 
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RJay View Post
Hi monpere,

Like Rayzor, I don't back test any of my strategies, and I don't recommend back testing either of these bar types.

I do all my testing live or in market replay.

As you have surmised, one of the characteristics of these bars is a calculated "Open" value to each bar.

This is by design to display a cleaner looking chart.

RJay

@RJay,

I can't seem to get the channelTrend to work in Market Replay? I just end up with a blank screen or one in which the bars don't move IF the bars do show up?

No problem w/ the Renko though. I can make a video of it if needed.

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 bluemele 
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Well, I figured something out on the market replay. It seems to work now after I reloaded everything, but if I put in a larger tick size, with either Renko or Channel then it blows up. Tried with just flat charts, nothing else on also.

Seems to have an issue with the larger tick size on market replay?

EDIT: Ok, scratch that! It started working all of the sudden after so many bars I guess on the larger sized tick size setting.

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 RJay 
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bluemele View Post
@ RJay,

I can't seem to get the channelTrend to work in Market Replay? I just end up with a blank screen or one in which the bars don't move IF the bars do show up?

No problem w/ the Renko though. I can make a video of it if needed.


Discussed the situation with bluemele at length. We could not get the problem to reproduce itself. What I do want to share with everyone is that when the chart trials periods expire, any attempt to open a chart with the expired trial chart type will display a blank chart. Charts that are already open when expiration takes place will result in a frozen chart. I will be monitoring this possible issue with the trial licensing programming during market replay. If anyone else is having similar issues, please PM me.

Thanks,

RJay

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 monpere 
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Testing these bars out with my Autotrader on CL during my normal trading hours today from 8:00am to 12:00pm. Looks promising. It slightly outperformed my live trading today... but obviously, I was not concentrating because I was too busy observing the autotrader with the new bar type

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 monpere 
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I find that these bars take a really long time to load, my cpu usage spikes and computer fan kicks into high gear while they are loading, and sometimes locks up NT until the chart loads. That process very seems CPU intensive.

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 RJay 
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monpere View Post
I find that these bars take a really long time to load, my cpu usage spikes and computer fan kicks into high gear while they are loading, and sometimes locks up NT until the chart loads. That process very seems CPU intensive.

monpere,

I know that there are some chart types out there that do take a long time to load.

I have been using RenkoHybrid and ChannelTrend chart types for 2 years and have not noticed this issue.

Is this occuring with indicators already added to the chart? If you add a new chart or update a chart without indicators are the cpu usage values similar? How much historical data do you normally load.

Also, if you use even number tick bar size settings, it will reduce the cpu time needed by reducing the number of fractional calculations needed to calculate bar construction on the chart. I have updated the web site to reflect these preferred settings.

RJay

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 bluemele 
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Yes, I had the same issues. Until I removed indicators that were added to the chart type.

It would lock up my PC/NT (which isn't a slow one) for at least 20 seconds. Loads quickly by itself, but probably something with the way the indicators are analyzing the chart bars drawn?

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 rpm123 
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monpere View Post
Testing these bars out with my Autotrader on CL during my normal trading hours today from 8:00am to 12:00pm. Looks promising. It slightly outperformed my live trading today... but obviously, I was not concentrating because I was too busy observing the autotrader with the new bar type

@monpere, how goes your testing? I am finding the bars move so quickly that trying to get an order in manually or automated any where near the second bar after a reversal is near impossible. Are you finding this? And what have you found to filter the the chop successfully? Please share what you feel you can. Thanks.

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 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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rpm123 View Post
@ monpere, how goes your testing? I am finding the bars move so quickly that trying to get an order in manually or automated any where near the second bar after a reversal is near impossible. Are you finding this? And what have you found to filter the the chop successfully? Please share what you feel you can. Thanks.

I tested with market orders, and generally there is a couple of ticks slippage. They seem to perfrom pretty well outside of chop, but chop areas become huge killers, they can take the profits away very quickly. The testing I did was just applying my current strategy to these new bars without any alteration. I have not thought around the chop issue yet. I would have to do some more testing and analyzing for that. Given that these are manufactured bars that do not show real price action, I cannot backtest them without changing code to account for that, so my tests have just been in live market sim. Obviously, that way it takes way more time to play with these new bars.

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 RJay 
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monpere View Post
I tested with market orders, and generally there is a couple of ticks slippage. They seem to perfrom pretty well outside of chop, but chop areas become huge killers, they can take the profits away very quickly. The testing I did was just applying my current strategy to these new bars without any alteration. I have not thought around the chop issue yet. I would have to do some more testing and analyzing for that. Given that these are manufactured bars that do not show real price action, I cannot backtest them without changing code to account for that, so my tests have just been in live market sim. Obviously, that way it takes way more time to play with these new bars.

Hi monpere,

I find that using NT's downloadable market replay data, works as well as live for testing purposes.

Speeds up the testing quite a bit because you can accelerate the clock.

RJay

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 jmacn 
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@monpere
Are the channel trend bars continuing to work for you?

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  #27 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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jmacn View Post
@ monpere
Are the channel trend bars continuing to work for you?

I only used them during the trial period. They seemed to work ok, but not significantly better then the regular range bars I use. I personally found them to be a bit visually deceiving as they smooth out the price action by artificially repainting the bars. This effect makes your indicators look totally wild. I use RSI and stochastic, and the indicator patterns using the trend bars were totally different then with any other types of bars I've used, so not sure the traditional indicator usage would work all that well with them. Overall, using the trend bars with my particular automated strategy did not significantly increase the strategy's profitability. Gabryele seems to do very well with them in the Blueline Delight strategy thread, so you may want to check out that thread.

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 RJay 
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monpere View Post
I only used them during the trial period. They seemed to work ok, but not significantly better then the regular range bars I use. I personally found them to be a bit visually deceiving as they smooth out the price action by artificially repainting the bars. This effect makes your indicators look totally wild. I use RSI and stochastic, and the indicator patterns using the trend bars were totally different then with any other types of bars I've used, so not sure the traditional indicator usage would work all that well with them. Overall, using the trend bars with my particular automated strategy did not significantly increase the strategy's profitability. Gabryele seems to do very well with them in the Blueline Delight strategy thread, so you may want to check out that thread.

Hi monpere,

Just a couple of items regarding the ChannelTrend bars.

First, unlike some other bar charts out there that do repaint their bars, none of my bar charts repaint.

I believe repainting to be an unacceptable way of doing things and I would never do that.

My some of charts do have indicator characteristics built into them and that makes them a little different.

I understand that ChannelTrend's characteristics may be a little to "clean" for some traders.

To resolve this issue, I have created an indicator that plots price action inside each bar on the ChannelTrend chart.

This indicator will be given away for free!!!

It is in beta right now. I posted a picture earlier this week but it got censored.

RJay

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  #29 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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RJay View Post
Hi monpere,

Just a couple of items regarding the ChannelTrend bars.

First, unlike some other bar charts out there that do repaint their bars, none of my bar charts repaint.

I believe repainting to be an unacceptable way of doing things and I would never do that.

My some of charts do have indicator characteristics built into them and that makes them a little different.

I understand that ChannelTrend's characteristics may be a little to "clean" for some traders.

To resolve this issue, I have created an indicator that plots price action inside each bar on the ChannelTrend chart.

This indicator will be given away for free!!!

It is in beta right now. I posted a picture earlier this week but it got censored.

RJay

Sorry about the nomenclature, by repainting, I meant that the bars on the screen are not showing real price action, maybe a better term would be artificial bars, visually altered, or OHLC altered bars.

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  #30 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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monpere View Post
Sorry about the nomenclature, by repainting, I meant that the bars on the screen are not showing real price action, maybe a better term would be artificial bars, visually altered, or OHLC altered bars.

Having not used these (or even have NinjaTrader installed anymore), do you mean like HeikenAshi ? In terms of false OHLC?

Mike

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  #31 (permalink)
 monpere 
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Big Mike View Post
Having not used these (or even have NinjaTrader installed anymore), do you mean like HeikenAshi ? In terms of false OHLC?

Mike

Yes

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  #32 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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Momentum BarsType shows similar results with Renko Hybrid

* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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  #33 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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hm, where are the differences between ChannelTrend and MomentumBarsType?
MomentumBarsType free for elite members
ChannelTrend charge for $149

* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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  #34 (permalink)
 wldman 
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to me. The one that costs 149 must be superior though. ..don't you think?

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 wldman 
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Big Mike View Post
Having not used these (or even have NinjaTrader installed anymore), do you mean like HeikenAshi ? In terms of false OHLC?

Mike

With respect to Heike Ashi...what do yopu mean by "false" bars?

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 bluemele 
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Jonson View Post
hm, where are the differences between ChannelTrend and MomentumBarsType?
MomentumBarsType free for elite members
ChannelTrend charge for $149

Do more than 1 tick and you will see the differences.

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 Big Mike 
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wldman View Post
With respect to Heike Ashi...what do yopu mean by "false" bars?

Heiken Ashi does not represent true OHLC. Stick them on your chart and you'll see.

Mike

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  #38 (permalink)
 RJay 
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Jonson View Post
hm, where are the differences between ChannelTrend and MomentumBarsType?
MomentumBarsType free for elite members
ChannelTrend charge for $149

Hi Jonson,

Looks like you have found something here. When you set ChannelTrend to an illegal odd number tick setting of 1, you get a result that in fact contains no Channeltrend characteristics at all. I dare say this setting has probably messed up the characteristics of the MomentumBars as well.

Maybe you could try posting a few charts with different settings that actually show the difference between these two chart types for the other members of this forum.

Any assortment of even number tick sizes are OK with me.

RJay

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 wldman 
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RJay View Post
Hi Jonson,

Looks like you have found something here. When you set ChannelTrend to an illegal odd number tick setting of 1, you get a result that in fact contains no Channeltrend characteristics at all. I dare say this setting has probably messed up the characteristics of the MomentumBars as well.

Maybe you could try posting a few charts with different settings that actually show the difference between these two chart types for the other members of this forum..

Any assortment of even number tick sizes are OK with me.

RJay


what is an illegal setting?

I'd like to know how your bars work Rjay...and the other custom bars as well. In questioning users I did mnot get concrete answers. Can you explain how the bars draw and in what applications they might be useful? DB

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 RJay 
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wldman View Post
what is an illegal setting?

I'd like to know how your bars work Rjay...and the other custom bars as well. In questioning users I did mnot get concrete answers. Can you explain how the bars draw and in what applications they might be useful? DB

Hi wldman,

As a declared vender, I am bound by specific rules of conduct here on this forum.

One of these rules is no self promotional posts.

I would be happy to answer any of your questions privately.

RJay

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 Gabriyele 
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on the 14tick Hybrid Bars works like a charm



thank you Rjay!!



....here you go

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  #42 (permalink)
 monpere 
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Gabriyele View Post
on the 14tick Hybrid Bars works like a charm


thank you Rjay!!

You have to say what bottom pane indicator you are using for the divergence.

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 sharmas 
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Thats RJays divergence Spotter Indicator in Panel 2.

Innovative-Trading-solutions-online.com

sharmas

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  #44 (permalink)
 monpere 
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sharmas View Post
Thats RJays divergence Spotter Indicator in Panel 2.

Innovative-Trading-solutions-online.com

sharmas

Yes, but what indicator is being used to create the divergence? MACD, RSI, Stoch...etc?

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 Gabriyele 
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monpere View Post
You have to say what bottom pane indicator you are using for the divergence.


monpere View Post
Yes, but what indicator is being used to create the divergence? MACD, RSI, Stoch...etc?

check the post again, the remedy is there

thank you for the side note

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 Gabriyele 
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Rjay's Golden Hybrid Renkos, the divergence spotter and the swingrays




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  #47 (permalink)
 sharmas 
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monpere View Post
Yes, but what indicator is being used to create the divergence? MACD, RSI, Stoch...etc?


RJay has the options to choose which ever one you want to use in his Divergence Spotter:
MACD Fast
MACD Slow
POV2
RVI
CCI
RSI
TRIX
TRIX3

and has the options to show First and Second Divergence.

Sharmas

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 bluemele 
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sharmas View Post
RJay has the options to choose which ever one you want to use in his Divergence Spotter:
MACD Fast
MACD Slow
POV2
RVI
CCI
RSI
TRIX
TRIX3

and has the options to show First and Second Divergence.

Sharmas

The divergence shows the bar after the line correct? I would think it would have too.... So, for those looking on, remember that those lines are painted one bar later to create the pivot and the divergence.

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  #49 (permalink)
 monpere 
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bluemele View Post
The divergence shows the bar after the line correct? I would think it would have too.... So, for those looking on, remember that those lines are painted one bar later to create the pivot and the divergence.

I don't have the indicator, but it should be able to start drawing the divergence as soon as a divergence starts developing, and update the line as new bars develop as long as the divergence condition is still intact. Part of the beauty of divergence is that you can see it coming multiple bars in advance.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Speaking of divergence, a divergence without a significant location within the equation and order flow as confirmation is as good as flipping a coin or looking at two moving averages crossing over. Would you trade each cross-over or divergence, i doubt but who knows maybe RJay's indics form a superior beast. Maybe this could be a good test to make, ie, what is more profitable: two MA crossing over or a divergence!

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  #51 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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monpere View Post
I don't have the indicator, but it should be able to start drawing the divergence as soon as a divergence starts developing, and update the line as new bars develop as long as the divergence condition is still intact. Part of the beauty of divergence is that you can see it coming multiple bars in advance.

Yes, I agree 100% but like TIYF mentions below, obviously could be a problem. The thing I wanted to point out on MOST divergence indicators is that they tend to wait to give the signal so a newbie might think he has the holy grail. I know I thought that when I saw the first divergence indicator! haha...


trendisyourfriend View Post
Speaking of divergence, a divergence without a significant location within the equation and order flow as confirmation is as good as flipping a coin or looking at two moving averages crossing over. Would you trade each cross-over or divergence, i doubt but who knows maybe RJay's indics form a superior beast. Maybe this could be a good test to make, ie, what is more profitable: two MA crossing over or a divergence!

Agree! I rarely trade it any more unless market conditions are just right. Something I have learned while trying to trade it. Monpere is the expert though...

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  #52 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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I've been trialing the Renko Hybrid bars and the newer Renko Spectrum bars, which also encapsulates the Renko Hybrid. I like it so far. I had been mostly using the free Rjay's RangeNoGap bars for months now so trying out these bar types for the first time was fun and I think it offers possibilities for varied trading methods and strategies.

NinjaTrader Bar Charts By RJay

RJay, if you're still here. Have you ever considered offering versions of those bar types for other platforms such as MT4? (often used as a forex automated platform).

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