-Import the attached NinjaScript zip files using File, Utilities, Import NinjaScript... (do not unzip)
-Put the two .xml template files in your \NinjaTrader 6.5\templates\Chart folder
-Click on File, New, Chart... , select your instrument, days back, and preferred range bar size for the Trade chart, and choose the UnViper Trade template.
Repeat for the Trend chart, choosing the UnViper Trend template.
The default Trade chart range bar for ES is 5.
The default Trend chart range bar for ES is 7.
Range bar size will vary for other instruments, but the general rule is the Trend chart uses a range about 1.5 times the Trade chart.
Cautions: Both the Viper and UnViper will repaint the LinReg colors two segments back so it makes reviewing could-have trades inaccurate. And you'll find you need trading skills apart from their indicators (or the attached) to be profitable.
-Tom
The following 8 users say Thank You to tomgilb for this post:
If the instrument is more volatile, the range bars need to be commensurately larger. On the TF, they use 8 on the Trade chart and 12 on the Trend chart. Same for NQ, I think, but sometimes they use 12/16.
They have no hard rule on range bar size. Their defaults are from their experience but experiment with what seems to work for your style. I liked a 3/5 for scalping the ES.
Please excuse this basic question but when I add the templates to the Ninja 6.5 files I do not find a charts/templates folder; do I just create one and then use it to populate the chart?
I've added the zip files with no problem before.
My computer skills are as newbie as my trading skills
burchak. are the arrows from pbf 3MAs. would you mind attach a chart ONLY with 2EMA, 3EMA colors from PBF as it has lot of other indicators in the chart
the viper system will appeal to all rookies, but you will need some trading experince to make it work. Z1 trend bars from the download file will be pretty close. Good luck
I was a Viper member for several months and also tried the auto-trader for a month. Gary and his wife are great people. A little of Charles goes a long way. If you search, you will find replicates of the indicators that they are using both here and on other forums. The only thing that Gary added was drawing boxes around congestion areas. You just saved $99 per month.
As for the auto-trader, I was an original subscriber, who never got it to work. The first iteration was not ready for prime time, curve fitted, and took huge draw downs. It was subsequently shelved and reworked. I did not stick around for the so called new and improved TF auto-trader. Their partner in this is some dude named Richard Staiton. He is mighty full of himself, and if a question is raised about his auto-trader it is rebuffed mightily. Save your money and the draw downs in your account.
Best of luck in your trading.
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Just a thought that I wanted to add , why do you guys want to waste more money on indicators ? there is no magic system that will show you exactly where the buy or sell entries , I would advise to take a look at all the indicators in the free download area and see for yourself , i have found that a good old EMA would keep me in the trend as good as any other sophisticated indicator , please keep your money , and try to master one setup only , sim it and play it back later using the market replay tool and do it again , until you feel comfortable enough to put real money , and then start with the smallest size possible and the less risky market out there ( YM or NQ ) and work on it again until you feel good about it .
"repetition is mother of all skills "
Just my 2 cents , I hope it helps !
Cheers and happy holidays !
"Risk more than others think safe.
Dream more than others think practical.
Expect more than others think possible.
Care more than others think wise"
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Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
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thorough conclusions, not to be argued with,
I too subscribed, and returned, but having significant control issues (what with being a former options floor trader) with releasing control to an auto trader and watching my hard earned dwindle on what seemed right.
I too mother hubbard, and have argues with abandoning the concept for manual trading and simply missing some incredible entries and long home run trades. but oh well, can't bat 500, let alone 1000.
ok, here is there new and improved manual system screen shot. what I want to ask is:
1) identify the offset arrow indicator that points direction
2) using the ADXVMA indicator, oops, did I just answer my question, what other indicator do you see on their chart?
3) what other donchian channel, oops (Madonnna) I did it again, what other indicator do you see?
TSSupertrend v2.3
SuperTrend uses ATR (average true range) to identify when the trend has changed direction. You can combine this with multiple moving average types to smooth the averages, and you are left with a super effective indicator that can be …
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If you will go to: [URL="http://www.mypivots.com/Board/Topic/4508/31/eminivipercom"] a poster has commented: That system is just the last Viper rendition running on NT 7, which is still in beta testing. One chart instead of two.
Same old wine in a brand new bottle, albeit easier on the eyes."
You will be able to discern all of the indicators used as well as the so called improvements.
The only thing I can't recognize on that chart is the background indicator.
Got to hand to these creeps. They come to this forum to get free indicators and then package them in a BS name (Viper) and take $99/month for the pleasure.
I listened to one of their recent webinars and it was full of wonderful after the fact, couldwa, woulda, shoulda trades that the system showed, but not one of the moderators could produce evidence of a realtime trade using this stuff. I suppose that's because they VEND, not trade, for a living.
Also, they now have gone back to using Floor pivots after dropping them from the older version when they claimed pivots weren't necesssary. Now pivots are important. It's called curve fitting....
Stay away from these guys. You'll learn much more at futures.io (formerly BMT) and be $99/month richer.
Zeothecus. really appreciate for your inputs. I had their trail for month once and didn't feel important to continue. yes, they could't explain their entries well.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
last 2 posts say it all!
seems that the notion of limitations on statements representative of future events constitutes a promise which further constitutes an implied contractual or guarantee of future events, which leads towards lawsuits after lawsuits after lawsuits,
so all statements, responses and representations are guarded and prequalified, as well as recorded and the script of typed text, responses and questions are kept (defensive move all around)
seems that the qualification statement that must be signed before lease begins indemnifies all their parties completely and reminds one that all risk is self imposed, as if we didn't need to be reminded of such
this is like all the other brokerage accounts that seek to remind the potential trader / customer that they bear all risk associated with trading and fully indemnify the firm against any and all liability.
seems that one indemnification is too much, just to do a 2nd one on top of that
seems that repainting bars makes the charts look perfect whilest live in tandem trading watching the charts and taking the risk on the trades does not equivacate to their results if they speak about them at all,
seems that the inability to cross talk, know whom else is in the room, or see their comments typed, or questions asked speaks for itself, although there are always reasons to prevent and isolate others from each other speaks for itself too....
seems that the positive trades that do happen especially with the auto trader on a good day and on an agreeable contract justifies the subscription many times over,
I just can't wrap my hands around letting go, and allowing it to fire realtime in my behalf, seems my option floor trader experience just can't let go, although I often, after running it in parallel in sim101 mode, wish I had had it live101 for that day, and frequently move the trailing stop into the profit, on successful moves, which cuts short further potential gain in exchange for keeping what's posted as a gain, and sometimes, and sometimes, and sometimes
futures.io (formerly BMT) rocks!, and with some guts, grit and friends like these, hey, who needs automation?
kronie, if you're not trading this thing live, why bother donating $299 a month for it? Also, the whole point of an auto-trade system is to not get involved by moving targets, stops etc. If you're doing that, you defeat the purpose of having automation and no emotion.
Just my little two pence of thought on this post, I have enjoyed reading it, it is good to have differance of openion, that is what evolves the next step.
Firstly I have no links to Viper only I use the AT's and so attend the webnars, Yes I know you can get the indicators etc, well similar, but I do like for two hours in my day having company trading, I live in Europe and trade from 7am to about 6pm GMT so those 2 hours are nice part of my day and averages out about $4 a day. so $4 is well worth it (less than the cost of placing a trade!)
The support you recieve is excellent, Gary is a true gentleman and his wife Linda is always very helpful if i ever need something answered etc.
Rich is always working on bettering his systems, I have been a AT subscriber from day one and to see how they have come on leaps and bounds is excellent.
A AT will only do as well as the volitality that is provided in my mind. At the moment ES, TF etc are not really trading well, to choppy. So I'm not trading the AT's for the TF or ES at the moment. So i just trade the 6's (6A. 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J etc). I have attached the charts from yesterdays AT trades for 6E and 6B as those are the only two out at the moment. both of them up $2362.50 = $4725 trading two contracts on each is not bad for 5 hours trading on two contracts. The reason I only traded the AT for 5 hours yesterday was it was non-farm payroll day and the currencys are a little to quiet for me before that news. I have a seperate account for the AT's and keep mymanual account seperate, that is also another way to see how it is doing, and my AT account is very healthy, growing nice and steady.
Yes they do have down days but not often and not by a lot either and some days they are only up a couple of hundred dollars, but usually up a fair amount.
As I said I live in Europe so I have the 6B 6E AT on when I am alseep, and when I wake up I'm up 5 or 6 hundred dollars most days.
I have every bit of confidence in their AT systems, and they will continue to just get better. Forex is out soon and I will probably be mainly Forex AT then.
Just my thoughts as I said and I'm happy with my set up here and my trading.
I hope you guys find what your looking for. I have attached charts from yesterday, the last AT trading day.
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It depends on the trade sometimes, if it is one tick away from filling and cant get that last tick (have limit orders on not market if touched) I may move it up one to fill. Usually I leave it work away on the side as I'm busy with my manual trades, and the 6's tend to trend a lot. I hope that answers your question
If I can answer your questions as you have written them,
The 6's, yes I have been profitable with them, There have been some days where my max tick loss has been hit, but the gains far outway the loss, so I am happy with the 6's. I do change some of the settings on them, i.e. breakeven is set to 19, I have that at 17 things like that.
Regarding backtesting, Using these stratgies it is impossible to back test in the way of putting in a time frame i.e. 6.30am - 10am (PST) and see how it did over the past 3 months say. as lets take the Russell for example, you wouldnt trade it the day before a FOMC, or like this Friday coming we have the UOM report out at 6.55am (PST) so It will not be traded in the first session.
However a lady called Jane who is also a AT subscriber has done an independent study on the TF going back to October 2009 (I will attach it as a zip file for you to see), in it you can see the days it had losses, profits, hit max loss, hit cool blue, hit big green etc. She spent a lot of time on it (more patience than I have). And you will see that for the period of October to December 09 (which was when it was emailed out to us)it did well. It does match my takings on the times I traded it (with one or 2 ticks slippage you do get on the russell as it can be such a fast puppy).
AT's are not for eveyone and they will have losses, there is no AT that will not have a losing trade. I like the fact I can change the parameters within the AT for my own risk tollerance.I like how easy it is to understand the settings, and to change them, no complication.
Has the developer shared any of the concept of the AT with you. In other words, is it a momentum strategy, volatility, pattern recognition or something else?
Jane spent a lot of time and trouble providing backtest results of the RussellsViper AT, even more than I did with it and the other Viper ATs. Kudos to her for doing her due diligence. But the issue remains: Why doesn't the vendor provide this level of detailed data for its own products? Answer: It's either too much trouble and they can be fully subscribed without it, or the data would reveal abysmal performance as it would have with their earlier ATs. This is not the modus operandi of a quality company.
I would disagree with your assessment about them not being a quality company. I know several other companies that charge several thousand dollars for there AT products, either do or don't provide historical testing, but in either case it's hard to match results.
These guys are quite candid about when not to trade with the AT's which many don't say anything about. Also instead of having to lay out thousands and then try and get it back, I believe you can trial it, or at least 1 month costs only $299, and you can go month by month. So if if pays for itself great, otherwise drop it.
The whole purpose of using AT is to eliminate the babysitting, discretion, and emotions from trading amd let the robot do its thing. Aside from trading around news, which I believe makes sense, these guys are curve fitting the strategies with extraneous pivots and adding other parameters about when to trade and not. So, the human involvelment ,i.e., discretion is now part of these systems, defeating the purpose.
The new currency systems are very young and, again, are being beta tested with paying customers like the original Cobra which, incidentally, blew up. Also, there is no record of the daily perfromance for 6E, 6B or ZN on the website. Ask yourself why.
Time will tell if these systems have legs, but if history is any indication, they probably won't. The success rate for AT is no different than discretionary methods. Over 90% lose money after slippage, commissions, and fees.
The company is getting ready to release even more AT for forex pairs. I guess if you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
this is impressive, how this thread has progressed, both with active customers attesting to the good they have experienced and the caution expressed by others regarding AT (auto trading) systems.
I was impressed with the results on the 6's (emini currency contracts) that were posted. I also thought that it was very wise to have segregated funds designated solely for the auto trader so that proper account results could be ascertained, separated from his discretionary trading account.
A word of general caution regarding jumping into currency pair (the true form of forex or foreign currency) trading verses emini currency contract trading. There remains substantial customer protection and risk management procedures actively used in the retail accounts regarding protecting the margin and ability to maintain a position in emini trading that doesn't necessarily always exist in equal measure with formalized F/X currency pair trading.
It continues to be reported that the latter have customer experiences that have run into substantial negative equity (i.e. debit account balances) instead of being forced out of their position in an equivalent emini currency position. Simply put venturing into those waters, one doesn't have the same federal oversight and protection that the various commodity agencies offer.
The new AT for F/X pairs shows awesome possibilities, but as with anything that cycles, if you join in on a down cycle, you endure the pain before the gain, if you join in on an up cycle, when the AT is producing awesome results, you have a testimony similar to the european trader listed above. One only knows by going live, not simulated.
happy trading to all, and to all former licensed brokers / traders amongst us, try to remember your licensing exam questions and discussions (just as a word of caution)
When I subscribed the method used to inform traders when to trade or not was a type of market profile. If the prior day's trading range was compact, they told you to trade expecting the range to be large. If the prior days trading range was expanded, they told you not to trade. Maybe it has changed, or they got a new crystal ball.
When I went live, there were 3 drawdown days in a row. The total was 110 ES ticks. If one is unfortunate enough for those to be their first 3 days using the AT, I doubt that same person is going to have the intestinal fortitude to let the AT trade wide open after that.
Since the company does not provide an equity curve, one will have a difficult time doing any due diligence. I believe, I have exhausted what I have to say about these guys.
Viper6E2 was down 230 ticks today or $2,817.50 before commissions. In last night's webinar, the developer, Rich Staiton, when asked what size account one needs to trade 2 contracts, replied $5,000.
My sympathies to those who lost 56% of their equity in a single day.
Zoethecus, I personally dont trade the 6E2, I find it takes to many trades for me. I can only comment on what I trade and the results I get when I trade it with real money, I think that is fair. like wise if that is what the 6E2 pulled up yesterday then you should also say what the 6E and 6B did. I think that is fair.
I can tell you the results I had with 6E and 6B yesterday and will break them down. I only trade the TF, 6B, 6E, and original Diamond Back after FOMC and beigh book announcments with the AT. So I can only comment on those as said above it is real money and my findings. Also as I said in a previous post I'm not trading the TF at the moment until it finds some direction and stops chopping around. If there down there down, if there up there up.
Yesterday (as same day you posted) for 6B and 6E, (2 contracts, 1 19 tick target, 2 40 tick target with trailing stop, breakeven set to 17ticks)
I made $2369.75 on both, if you only traded the times Rich says you would have made $1288.50. I will break them down in the sessions I trade them (GMT time),
6B: Morning: $26.00, Afternoon: $125.00 (Night: $606.25, in brackets because outside recommended times)
I will also say (all being fair) that on Monday on the settings I use in the sessions I trade it the 6E and 6B were down $789.00.
The recommended session times for 6E are (in PST) 1am - 5am, 7am - 11am, (my night session is 5pm - 11pm)
6B are 5 minutes past midnight till 11am, I use ten minutes past midnight to 5am then 7am to 11 am (PST)
I am not trading the 6B this morning as it is very tight, probably waiting for Beigh Book later (but will have a look when USA opens), probably would have traded it if the UK Industrial Production report had produced significant figures to move the 6B but came in at 0.0. I am trading the 6E this morning thou.
After beigh book I will look at the 6B and if there is violity there I will trade it, also I will be looking tonight at the Australian Employment report and may go into the AUD/USD depending on the figures released, and after today we should have good violity as the reports that are coming out for Euro and the USD if they produce significant figures within them.
The default setting for that parameter is O, which means false. And the developer explained why that's the case in the webinar--because one could easily be down 80 ticks and the AT would rally back to show a profit and you'd miss it.
If all those curve fitted parameters are necessary to make a profit, why doesn't Viper simply hard wire them into defaults to optomize the performance? Why leave it an open option for the trader?
Here's why: because if the AT has a great trading day during the times that were talked about as "no trade zones," they will use that to promote the great performance of the system. Other than the trade date calendar on the website, there is nothing explaining, when not to trade.
Let's be fair. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
And you still haven't explained why the performance of these instruments is not posted daily on the Viper website. What is Viper trying to hide?
The systems are terribly flawed with massive drawdowns and require way to much user intervention.
You are beginning to sound like youare on a mission. You've defined an AT as requiring no user intervention, but fact is most really do, and if you can't trade manually you should trade an AT. The Viper guys recognize this and are trying to help there users by pointing this out and you criticize them for this.
As far as posting results, again the problem is how the user manages the software. I've seen results posted and couldn't duplicate them so what does it prove, was it them or me. Data feeds do make a difference.
Personally, I don't use the Viper AT's. I am not impressed by the software developer, compared to others, and also the drawdowns even successful trades bothers me personally. But that's me.
I have no doubt some aren't successful with it, but also have no doubt some are.
Zoethecus, The max loss ticks are there, it's up to you if you use them or not, if you had used them your 6E2 would not have been down so much. I personally like the fact that I Can adjust the parameters to my risk tolerance, I can move my 1st target, 2 target to what I like, have trailing stop on off, some people like it off, I like it on. It's personal preference.
It was explained to us that the settings were optional depending on our risk tolerance etc. you can make the max loss settings less if you wish. I'm only saying I like using it on the sessions I trade.
You'd have to ask Viper why there not on the web page yet, I have no doubt they will be. I can't answer that for you.
If your attending the webnars you must be a subscriber? as it is for subscribers only.
In the Webnars, we have all been told the sessions for A, B C days and know what they mean. Also on the news page of the auto trader website you will see the A B C days, and on the date that would say a B or C day it will tell you what not to trade and when, what to trade and when. It cant be more simple than that. We have all been told when to trade the 6E and 6B and when, and also when not to trade them, same for ZN and ZB (I don't personally trade them).
Lets take today for example, A Day except start the Russell after 11.15am on 3rd session. No 6E in 2nd session (7am - 11am).
Also i do agree with peter2150, you do sound like you are on a mission. Some At's I probably wouldn't like that you do and vice versa, depends on your trading style, You'd probably find fault with my manual trading methods and indicators also because it doesn't fit in with yours, and I probably wouldn't like your methods of manual trading, why because we are two different people, everybody trades different styles, likes different indicators etc. It doesn't mean I am a better trader than you or you me it's just called being human.
All I know is when I trade them and do my weekly P and L for the AT I have made money, some weeks more than others.
I posted results that were set with the defaults for the software. Again, if there are tweaks the user needs to make, they should be hard-wired into the system.
Viper is like getting half pregnant with an AT.
All the REPUTABLE developers allow the user to run the AT as is, so not to bastardize it and make mistakes. By definition an AT should not need any user intervention. By allowing users to change important parameters, they system can never be audited. And without verification, what good is it?
You want REPUTABLE systems? Go to FutresTruth, Stryker, or World Cup. The only control the user has on those is the number of contracts to trade. Those developer wouldn't think of having a user play around with their systems.
And yes, I am on a mission. It is to educate those who aren't savvy in these matters to learn the pitfalls of slick marketers who's mission is to separate those folks from their hard earned money.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
When I learned and subsequently taught floor trading principles from successful older traders, there was a term was was coined to encompass the breathe and depth and width of the mental processes, inclusive of risk management, that traders go that traders go through..
"visual acuity"
what we are discussing here are the results reached by not curve fitting or as described having to do any of these items listed:
extensive need for customization to trading times,
knowing to set a maximum stop loss,
knowing in advance and setting periods of times not to trade based on economic news disruptions,
monitoring negative trades and deciding to interrupt their losses, irrespective of future recovery or lost opportunity to recover losses on the next trade,
need for constant social interactions on webinars just to find out what should have been done during the trading day to prevent said losses for that day
not discussing during the trading day's webinar, those customizations that more experienced traders are already making to prevent massive drawdowns, whilest letting others experience them,
preventing cross talk amongst serious and committed customers from sharing and improving other traders so that they are able to discuss what concerns them or swap improvements to prevent massive drawdowns and share positive experiences
waiting until evening to discuss chart patterns that appear so perfect long after the fact but in real time aren't so obvious, and not discussing them during the trading day where they can properly be traded (both on either the manual system or the AT systems)
what (I believe Zoe. is saying is) in order to reap the gains from the AT process, and limit, avoid, miss or skip over the losses, one still has to monitor in real time the AT process just to prevent the results of upside down trades (inverted positions) like the charts displayed (all 5 of them) just previously
what I believe Zoe. is saying is if one has to do all that monitoring and hand holding and mother hubbarding, then:
what is the advantage?,
what is the point?,
what has the successful sophisticated retail trader gained?
a logical conclusion to those questions implies (which may not have been as evident to all, but some have gotten the point, including my thick mindset) is:
its not likely that a knowing trader would have entered, or remained in those trades (refer back to the previously posted five (5) charts)
its not likely that the knowing trader would have traded during a chop session, whether based on outside events or news events or other factors not in evidence on the price chart, or remained trading (for that session, day, night, evening or scenario)
its not likely that manual trading would have produced the same losses
that having been said in logical simple terms, then a trader observing:
taking into or ignoring all other intangible inputs from news sources
represents (most of) the net sum that a traders' mind goes through before deciding to click the button and commit to a position / trade
iow (in other words) the visual acuity process would not have lead a trader to have made the same series of consistently losing trades, and would have stopped themselves out from trading long before incurring a 56% drawdown on a well funded $5,000.00 account
so then what has an honest intentioned trader gained by using (anyone's, not just this one) an AT process when manual trading would most likely have had better results than what were observed (as described by those five (5) charts previously, as an objective discussion point)?
ok, gotta get back to trading,
no, neither Zoe. nor I are bashing anyone just discussing observations based on one's results and the foregoing discussion thread (i.e. contributions from others who have participated here)
Zoethecus, I dont know what data feed your using but I'd get it checked out, I use Zen Fire.
I have just pulled up the russell (not trading it at the moment), and have attached the picture.
As you can see it took the trade short at 635.2 short, then retraced to 367.1 (1 tick from stop) and went into a good short, then took another short which was stopped out, now it's in a nice long on 2nd contract, so ticks today,
trade 1, 14 + 29 = 43
Trade 2, - 18 x 2 = -36
Trade 3. 14 and trailing stop is at 635.9 so thats minimum of another 24 ticks = 38 ticks
Total so far on Russell - 45 ticks, thats $450 if the 3rd trade stops out at its present trailing stop.
You obviously have issues with viper that have nothing to do with the AT, and why if you are so dead against their system are you a subscriber to the AT and spending $299 a month?
Keep in mind that the trades repaint. So just because one pulls up a chart later in the day, the actual trades may not necessarily be the same one on your chart pulled up afterwards. This was the reason I had such a difficult time matching the trades on my chart to what they showed. IMHO
Yes they do, I'll pull up a reloaded chart once this long finishes out and post the two, that long is still long and trailing stop is now 397.2. The chart posted has been running since 6am PST.
I'm not against the system per se although I think it's riddled with problems. It's the sleazy marketing tactics the owners deploy that I rub me the wrong way.
I never said I subscribe at $299 a month, did I? You can't be serious.
I'm going to leave this thread until there is something new to add. I made me point ad nauseum.
As said I would post the TF chart after the long got stopped out, I have also posted a refreshed chart, as a refreshed can sometimes show differant entries etc.
As you can see on the live chart (which was in sim as not trading TF at the moment) you can see trade 1 entered at 635.2, on teh refreshed you can see it entered at 635.3, 1 tick earlier.
The only way I can think of to show the proce of a bar on these chart is to put a Fib which i have done to show it went to 637.1, and didnt hit 367.2.
So trade 3 stopped out at 638.4 making todays profit on TF 70 ticks which is $700. Wish I had traded it now!!!! Dont you just hate that lol
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
I choose to train my visual acuity to recognize the trigger points on the (selected or desired) contract, so that when I choose to trade CL, or YM, or6E, or EMD, or ES, or TF, or 6B, or whatever, I am confident to a reasonable % that I will have success, or be able to manage the position and control the damage of the loss instead of having runaway losses and no gains.
I choose to improve my visual acuity skills instead of relegate them to an AT that have such widely disparate results and such those that have been discussed and represented on this thread
futures.io (formerly BMT) exists to help other traders help other traders to improve in their visual acuity skills
If I wanted to rework and duplicate work every day's efforts, then perhaps I would hire a staff and simply go in behind all their work and get it done twice,
similarly with respect to trading, if i hire an AT and have to do so much pre-work, let alone, know that all that needs to be done before hand each and every day, then I think I should keep setting aside time to trade directly and in the process improve in my visual acuity skills and in seeing the trigger point and improve in my win rate instead of improving in my customization skills for these AT products
Zoe, has a very good point that he is making, and I must admit, I didn't want to accept the premise of his argument at first, but it kept weighing very heavy and made sense.
Absolutely, and I agree with you, and I wouldn't use the Viper AT's for several reasons, but I disagree the vendor's are being dishonest. I do use Viper and I do find it useful.
The reason I disagree with Zoe about the vendor is he is making a statement about their character, because the product doesn't work as he feels it should. They never claim, in fact caution against just turning it on and running it all day. So to do what they say don't do, get lousy results, and then say they are crooks, just doesn't wash, and I feel people reading this should get balance.
I've played with another AT, that again was designed to work exactly as the trader himself traded. If you like his approach this was great. The value was you could see when the market was behaving according to the rules he had, turn on the AT, and it would execute for you. The advantage. Reaction time. Again, this fellow had the strong caveat, don't turn it on and let it run all day, it will surely loose. So again to turn it on let it run all day, and get lousy results, and thus say the vendor is a crook isn't fair.
My problem with the VIper AT's is they aren't Viper, but some black box of Rich's and I can't judge when they should do something, so I have no way of knowing if they thing is even working. And that I wouldn't run.
Maybe the issue lies in the definition of what an Autotrader is, and that is another story.
"The EminiAutotraderź virtually eliminates your need for intervention and emotion in your trading. Speed of execution and with preset profit target and stops let the automated trading software take the lead for you. The software can both signal and execute high probability trades. "
Again, I have no objection against trading around news--I do that as a discretionary trader. But when the vendor starts to say things like, "according to Rob, he has got better results trading 6B between X and Y and A and C, on Mondays, but on Tuesday, that's not the case. And Sarah says she trades 6B only between J and L on Fridays and Wednesdays and Josh moves his profit target to 16 ticks 30 seconds after news etc. , etc. , etc." I know these guys don't have a clue and all they want to do is sipin all the negatives into positives and create an illusion they have their shit together.
This vendor doesn't have any notion about what an AT should do and Charles, doesn't even know what it's results are, let alone trade it himself. He comes late to these webinars and asks Gary how the scripts performed that day. All he cares about is how much money came in to his PayPal account on renewals. That's super comforting isn't it.
So, because this thing hasn't been back tested for optimal results, the users are paying $299 a month to beta test on behalf of the company. Now, they have introduced pivots and are instructing people to override the stop and profit parameters based on this, which also hasn't been back tested. During the webinar, they cherry picked a chart that shows a trade that worked better if one moved their stop to a floor trader pivot. But what happens when a trader moves his target to a pivot and the price blows through it, so instead of making 40 ticks as the AT was designed for, he made 8.
When someone noted the pivots on NT are different from eSignal, they were told not to worry about a few ticks here or there. That's real comforting too, isn't it.
All of this simply confuses the subscriber and makes him MORE INVOLVED in the trade. And when the trade doesn't work, they can point to some extraordinary thing thats not part of AT to show why the trader, not the AT, screwed up. What happens if the AT takes a trade right on the pivot? Should the trader immediately close the trade? The possibilities for tweaking this are limitless and all this will do is cause the subscriber to loose more money.
Also, let's forget these guys have a history of lying and using unethical marketing practices. For example, they claimed the Viper indicator was proprietary and didn't use any conventional indicator and posted their own testimonials on the website. You can get the whole story at the mypivots forum.
If I can save a few novice traders from getting highjacked by these guys, it will be a good thing and that's what this is all about. Traders helping other traders. Traders who have no interest in selling crap to other traders. Is that clear?
Yes the 6E did not have a good afternoon, you should have had your 80 tick max loss on, and yes we have all been told that, if you didn't have it on that is your choice. Now also while we are on the subject of 6E, on the times I trade it I was down 12.50 for the day, and it made me $3250 profit for the week, now I am happy with that, Also while you were looking at 6E you would have looked at 6B to see if that was having an off day, and you saw it wasn't, it was well up so you choose not to include that into your post.
On your above post, what it says on the web site, It does virtually eliminate need for intervention, it doesn't say totally eliminates need for intervention. On my auto trader I don't interfer with it that much, just if it is maybe 1 tick away from target 1 and cant get that last tick I may move it, target 2 I will let run as the break even is on. If I wanted a AT that I couldn't intervien I would put my money into a managed account with a broker and go play golf for the day. It does signal and execute high probability trades, if it didn't I wouldn't be making money on it.
I think in the webnars when they ask clients how they use the AT and when, we all learn from that, and I like to hear how other people use it, other peoples styles etc, have they found better times, profit targets etc, its then up to me if I'm going to take some of that on board or not, but nice to hear it. I do agree with you on one point however, that some losing trades should be pulled up and talked about why that didn't work etc. Rich to be fair does sometimes do that when he is in them, I have seen him go through a chart and talk about the trades it took winners and losers.
6E has been back tested from November, we were all told the results in a webnar. It's making me money so I will stick with it. Why would I stop using it.
You are against it for what ever reason that is your choice, you should post the good with the bad and people can make up their own minds on the AT.
I do agree traders should help other traders, hence why I like this site, full of people wanting to help others.
Have to agree, that post shouldn't be on the website. My biggest objection and the reason, I barely ran the trial a day, is it's black box. It's not Viper, it's Rich... and since I don't think this programing skills were all that great, I am not inclined to a black box.
Can't say to much about Charles, but I think Gary is genuinely trying to teach new comers about trading. I for one frankly wish they stayed away from the AT.
Too bad the owners of Viper don't have enough confidence in 6E AT to trade it live themselves. To me, that says a lot more than your testimonial ronan.
They got into AT for one reason: MONEY from subscribers.
Rich is a third tier developer looking for a marketing shell to sell his stuff. I understand some people at NT introduced him to Charles and the next thing you know Cobra AT is launched to much fanfare and then does a Led Zeppelin, never to be heard from again. Cobra blew up and with it a lot of traders' money. Anaconda was DOI and Mamba is no great shakes with a horrible risk reward ratio. Russell started off hot like most of these things do and then came back to earth. When newbies who thought they could earn thousands on a mere $300/month saw $1000 draw downs in a day, they ran for the hills.
So now we have new incarnations of Rich's Elliott Wavesque systems. (anyone who knows anything about EW can clearly see that's what the code is based on.) He slaps on the Viper mask and like magic Viper has another offering which has nothing to do, as you noted, with the Viper manual system which is based on fractals for breakouts.
Rich does trade it and he made it, Gary trades some of them, Charles I don't know I've never spoken to him, never had to.
And its not a testimonial, I'm only saying what I believe is true, and speaking fact and two sides to a story, i.e. you posted totally untrue results from TF the other day, today posted about 6E which it did have an off 2nd session, but you don't post the positive and the profits it makes, you only post the negative, and when you looked at 6E you did look at 6B and saw it was in profit but decided not to post that.
For what ever personal reason (and I do believe it is some personal issue you have with either Charles, Gary or Rich) you have with Viper, and lets face it what ever they do you will be against it, that is your opinion. It's working for me and I'm happy with that.
The following user says Thank You to ronan2505 for this post:
Don't be naive. Vendors don't trade what they sell to the public. They like risk free income from people like ronan.
Until you see their trading statements you know nothing.
I suggest to anyone who is considering spending money for these systems, to get the trading statements from the principals of the company. If they refuse regardless of the reason, be thankful you didn't sign up.
My definition of an autotrader is a completely automated system that is sophisticated enough to be run 24hrs with no human interaction and still have a consistent positive equity curve, with minimum drawdowns and tight stops. My expectations are high enough to preclude their actual existence, at least for now.
As for the integrity of Viper Trading Systems: They don't trade live in the live chat room, they don't have interactive chat in the live chat room, their trade reviews on their webinars are hindsight because the Viper colors will repaint two bars back, their indicators are not proprietary but ones repackaged and renamed from the public domain, their forum is sanitized because negative posts are disallowed, and they don't publish any backtest data on their autotraders which are continually curve-fitted to the previous month's market dynamics. Yeah, they do say some things that are actually true and useful, especially Gary Donahoo, but it's really a stretch to call the company honest. As Zoethetus said: it's like being half pregnant.
im in agreement about proving out a methodology. if you cant show statements then whats the point? anyone can color out the account number and still show that what they are teaching is real and has validity. ive had my share of buying tools and indicators from vendors. most of the ones i worked with always either talked about the trades after the fact, or if a trade works thats not in accorance to their rule set they change it to accomidate the end result of the trade.
the best thing anyone can do is to setup a proper money management plan. know your risk and reward on every trade you take. knowing this is your true grail in my opinion.
Actually even an account statement proves nothing, as Larry Williams pointed out in one of his books. He showed how a vendor if he really wants to be unethical, would open two accounts. Then in each one take the opposite side of the trade. Only cost then is commissions. Then take the best one, and build your pitch on that.
Nice, eh?
The following user says Thank You to Peter2150 for this post:
What finally did it for me with the 3 stooges (Rich the wizard Staiton, Charles the late show, and Gary the good guy) was when they repeatedly said that gotomeeting was the reason that chats among members could not be shown. I guess they take their members for snake oil lemmings, which in reality, is the case. lol
iam a subscriber to the viper trading sysem (discretionary trading no autotrading for me)and i love it i use to trade the ES i use 5 range charts for entries and 8 range chart for trend identification system is great
The following user says Thank You to chartman for this post:
I believe that if a trader can make it past the stage where they are taken in by the sales pitch of every system, indicator, and trade room huckster they just might have a chance at making the next step toward profitable trading. I don't think these people should be considered as trading mentors.
As like many other indicators, it has its strenghts and weaknesses but in general it's a very good and simple one. I have traded the ES using a 5 range chart and what I like the most is that it keeps me more time in a trade than many other indicators. It also holds during pullbacks (small pullbacks though)
This excerpt from Jane's superb analysis is all you need to know to stay away from Viper's Russell AT unless you enjoy losing money. Allow me to net it out for you.
From 9/09 thu 12/09, AT gained 368 points @$10/point = +$3,680.
900 contracts commission @$4.50 = -$4,050
Viper fee, $299/month x 4 = -$1,196
NET LOSS: $1,566.
Well, Charles, Rich, Gary, and the subscriber's broker made money; and four out of five ain't bad.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
ouch
you mean, you still had to pay the subscription fees? (joke, of course you did, insult to injury)
in all fareness,
there must have been spectacular winning days somewheres in there?
actually what has happened and I tried to mention this and openly discuss the unknown factor
whatever special approach or method that was used to develop and market the process, has been countered and out thought by highly educated PhD's in Financial Engineering as well as Mathematics as well as Software design.
simply put, they reverse engineered a probable similarity to the approach used by viper, and then figureed out both how to:
1) trigger its indicators into a false conclusion and then took trades opposite it
2) figurered out when it triggers a trade so they could front run, post run or cancel out its anticipated or expected outcome
this is what happens to all softwares, in smaller words, the marketplace has adjusted around its uniqueness to neutralize its advantage....
If I'm not mistaken, the russell emini is $100/point. But the analysis is based on reloaded charts so it's far from accurate.
When I was a subscriber, I studied the reloaded charts as far back as I could and it looked great, but live charts are very different from sim or reloaded charts.
It is a nice advertisement for the autotrader though.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
When I was a subscriber, I studied their live trade signals, because just about everyone's charts from any package repaint bars, and your conclusion is very accurate, namely the prior day's data looks perfect.
I saw losing trades and trades that would never be taken by a rational trader who desires to make, not lose money, in real time, not replayed data.
I tend to agree with the other guys conclusions and research showing continuing losses and expenses using this package.
this is not an advertisement of an auto trader, (what a cynical comment)
The author of the study inadvertently mixed "points" with ticks on the spreadsheet. The numbers are, in fact, ticks as referenced by Viper on the website. Each tick is $10.
Obviously, your results weren't in points. If they were, you be a raving Viper promoter instead of an ex-subscriber.
BTW, if this system could produce anywhere near those number in points (not ticks), it would be the most successful AT in the history of systems and the last thing the Viper boys would do is sell it. Instead, they'd trade it themselves for as much size as the market could handle and get rich beyond their wildest dreams, without the headaches of selling this shit to nubes and other get-rich-quick dreamers for $299 a month.
Please explain why analysis based on reloaded charts would be far from accurate.
It seems to me that the script would react the same to the price action regardless, except for slippage and historical data errors. The backtest analysis should not be significantly different from what would have actually happened.
I've seen the same thing, and it wasn't viper scripts. I suspect it's the data itself. I know I don't run my machine 24/7 which is one thing. Also no guarantee the recording system in Ninja is perfect.
On a 24 hour period, or even a few days, NT doesn't have material historical data errors for tick or range charts, but going back as little as a week it can. Time charts don't have such an issue.
The SIM refresh that Viper employs to post its daily results are the ideal prices the system would have fired the trade.
The killer is slippage.
Although I can't confirm it, Viper once had about 250 paid subscribers after the Russell was released. Who knows how many were trading live, but if half were at the two contract level, that's 250 contracts firing AT THE MARKET and the Russell simply can't handle that sort of demand without prices shooting away from the AT original entry; it's simply way to thin and at times only less than 50 contracts are available on a side.
Thus, live traders had much worse results than the hypothetical Viper results.
I'm not using MarketReplay. I'm talking about opening a chart after the fact and applying the strategy. What I don't understand is why the historical data, and consequently the entries and exits, would be significantly different from when it happened live.
I can understand that data from different providers might be slightly different (but not significantly different), but historical data and live data of the same timeframe, from the same provider, should be real close.
If you're talking about what you see on your charts vs. what Viper posts on their autotrader website, then that's another story. I never did chase that discrepancy. I could only go by what trades my chart displayed because those are the trades my system would have taken.
First I've long given up an any autotrading strategy being all that effective. But in playing with looking at the charts, after the fact and live, I've concluded the only results I trust are live. Not sure I can explain why, but that's just the conclusion I've come to based on looking.
