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Viper Trading Systems Indicator
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Viper Trading Systems Indicator

  #51 (permalink)
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Viper6E2 was down 230 ticks today or $2,817.50 before commissions. In last night's webinar, the developer, Rich Staiton, when asked what size account one needs to trade 2 contracts, replied $5,000.

My sympathies to those who lost 56% of their equity in a single day.

Kaboom.

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Viper Trading Systems Indicator-viper6e2_1.jpg   Viper Trading Systems Indicator-viper6e2_2.jpg   Viper Trading Systems Indicator-viper6e2_3.jpg   Viper Trading Systems Indicator-viper6e2_4.jpg  
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  #52 (permalink)
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Zoethecus, I personally dont trade the 6E2, I find it takes to many trades for me. I can only comment on what I trade and the results I get when I trade it with real money, I think that is fair. like wise if that is what the 6E2 pulled up yesterday then you should also say what the 6E and 6B did. I think that is fair.

I can tell you the results I had with 6E and 6B yesterday and will break them down. I only trade the TF, 6B, 6E, and original Diamond Back after FOMC and beigh book announcments with the AT. So I can only comment on those as said above it is real money and my findings. Also as I said in a previous post I'm not trading the TF at the moment until it finds some direction and stops chopping around. If there down there down, if there up there up.

Yesterday (as same day you posted) for 6B and 6E, (2 contracts, 1 19 tick target, 2 40 tick target with trailing stop, breakeven set to 17ticks)

I made $2369.75 on both, if you only traded the times Rich says you would have made $1288.50. I will break them down in the sessions I trade them (GMT time),

6B: Morning: $26.00, Afternoon: $125.00 (Night: $606.25, in brackets because outside recommended times)

6E: Morning: $400.00, Afternoon: $737.50 (Night: $475.00).

I will also say (all being fair) that on Monday on the settings I use in the sessions I trade it the 6E and 6B were down $789.00.

The recommended session times for 6E are (in PST) 1am - 5am, 7am - 11am, (my night session is 5pm - 11pm)

6B are 5 minutes past midnight till 11am, I use ten minutes past midnight to 5am then 7am to 11 am (PST)

I am not trading the 6B this morning as it is very tight, probably waiting for Beigh Book later (but will have a look when USA opens), probably would have traded it if the UK Industrial Production report had produced significant figures to move the 6B but came in at 0.0. I am trading the 6E this morning thou.

After beigh book I will look at the 6B and if there is violity there I will trade it, also I will be looking tonight at the Australian Employment report and may go into the AUD/USD depending on the figures released, and after today we should have good violity as the reports that are coming out for Euro and the USD if they produce significant figures within them.

Lets keep it fair.

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  #53 (permalink)
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p.s. Forgot to add recommended max loss setting on 6E is 80 ticks for 2 contracts (40 ticks for 1 contract)

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  #54 (permalink)
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ronan2505 View Post
p.s. Forgot to add recommended max loss setting on 6E is 80 ticks for 2 contracts (40 ticks for 1 contract)

The default setting for that parameter is O, which means false. And the developer explained why that's the case in the webinar--because one could easily be down 80 ticks and the AT would rally back to show a profit and you'd miss it.

If all those curve fitted parameters are necessary to make a profit, why doesn't Viper simply hard wire them into defaults to optomize the performance? Why leave it an open option for the trader?

Here's why: because if the AT has a great trading day during the times that were talked about as "no trade zones," they will use that to promote the great performance of the system. Other than the trade date calendar on the website, there is nothing explaining, when not to trade.

Let's be fair. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And you still haven't explained why the performance of these instruments is not posted daily on the Viper website. What is Viper trying to hide?

The systems are terribly flawed with massive drawdowns and require way to much user intervention.


Last edited by Zoethecus; January 13th, 2010 at 10:16 AM.
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  #55 (permalink)
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Zoethecus View Post
The default setting for that parameter is O, which means false. And the developer explained why that's the case in the webinar--because one could easily be down 80 ticks and the AT would rally back to show a profit and you'd miss it.

If all those curve fitted parameters are necessary to make a profit, why doesn't Viper simply hard wire them into defaults to optomize the performance? Why leave it an open option for the trader?

Here's why: because if the AT has a great trading day during the times that were talked about as "no trade zones," they will use that to promote the great performance of the system. Other than the trade date calendar on the website, there is nothing explaining, when not to trade.

Let's be fair. You can't have it both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And you still haven't explained why the performance of these instruments is not posted daily on the Viper website. What is Viper trying to hide?

The systems are terribly flawed with massive drawdowns and require way to much user intervention.

I will be posting yesterdays, non-curve fitted results for 6E and 6B in a subsequent post.

Zoethecus

You are beginning to sound like youare on a mission. You've defined an AT as requiring no user intervention, but fact is most really do, and if you can't trade manually you should trade an AT. The Viper guys recognize this and are trying to help there users by pointing this out and you criticize them for this.

As far as posting results, again the problem is how the user manages the software. I've seen results posted and couldn't duplicate them so what does it prove, was it them or me. Data feeds do make a difference.

Personally, I don't use the Viper AT's. I am not impressed by the software developer, compared to others, and also the drawdowns even successful trades bothers me personally. But that's me.

I have no doubt some aren't successful with it, but also have no doubt some are.

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  #56 (permalink)
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Zoethecus, The max loss ticks are there, it's up to you if you use them or not, if you had used them your 6E2 would not have been down so much. I personally like the fact that I Can adjust the parameters to my risk tolerance, I can move my 1st target, 2 target to what I like, have trailing stop on off, some people like it off, I like it on. It's personal preference.

It was explained to us that the settings were optional depending on our risk tolerance etc. you can make the max loss settings less if you wish. I'm only saying I like using it on the sessions I trade.

You'd have to ask Viper why there not on the web page yet, I have no doubt they will be. I can't answer that for you.

If your attending the webnars you must be a subscriber? as it is for subscribers only.

In the Webnars, we have all been told the sessions for A, B C days and know what they mean. Also on the news page of the auto trader website you will see the A B C days, and on the date that would say a B or C day it will tell you what not to trade and when, what to trade and when. It cant be more simple than that. We have all been told when to trade the 6E and 6B and when, and also when not to trade them, same for ZN and ZB (I don't personally trade them).

Lets take today for example, A Day except start the Russell after 11.15am on 3rd session. No 6E in 2nd session (7am - 11am).

Also i do agree with peter2150, you do sound like you are on a mission. Some At's I probably wouldn't like that you do and vice versa, depends on your trading style, You'd probably find fault with my manual trading methods and indicators also because it doesn't fit in with yours, and I probably wouldn't like your methods of manual trading, why because we are two different people, everybody trades different styles, likes different indicators etc. It doesn't mean I am a better trader than you or you me it's just called being human.

All I know is when I trade them and do my weekly P and L for the AT I have made money, some weeks more than others.

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  #57 (permalink)
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Peter2150 View Post
Zoethecus

You are beginning to sound like youare on a mission. You've defined an AT as requiring no user intervention, but fact is most really do, and if you can't trade manually you should trade an AT. The Viper guys recognize this and are trying to help there users by pointing this out and you criticize them for this.

As far as posting results, again the problem is how the user manages the software. I've seen results posted and couldn't duplicate them so what does it prove, was it them or me. Data feeds do make a difference.

Personally, I don't use the Viper AT's. I am not impressed by the software developer, compared to others, and also the drawdowns even successful trades bothers me personally. But that's me.

I have no doubt some aren't successful with it, but also have no doubt some are.

I posted results that were set with the defaults for the software. Again, if there are tweaks the user needs to make, they should be hard-wired into the system.

Viper is like getting half pregnant with an AT.

All the REPUTABLE developers allow the user to run the AT as is, so not to bastardize it and make mistakes. By definition an AT should not need any user intervention. By allowing users to change important parameters, they system can never be audited. And without verification, what good is it?

You want REPUTABLE systems? Go to FutresTruth, Stryker, or World Cup. The only control the user has on those is the number of contracts to trade. Those developer wouldn't think of having a user play around with their systems.

And yes, I am on a mission. It is to educate those who aren't savvy in these matters to learn the pitfalls of slick marketers who's mission is to separate those folks from their hard earned money.

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  #58 (permalink)
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When I learned and subsequently taught floor trading principles from successful older traders, there was a term was was coined to encompass the breathe and depth and width of the mental processes, inclusive of risk management, that traders go that traders go through..

"visual acuity"

what we are discussing here are the results reached by not curve fitting or as described having to do any of these items listed:
  • extensive need for customization to trading times,
  • knowing to set a maximum stop loss,
  • knowing in advance and setting periods of times not to trade based on economic news disruptions,
  • monitoring negative trades and deciding to interrupt their losses, irrespective of future recovery or lost opportunity to recover losses on the next trade,
  • need for constant social interactions on webinars just to find out what should have been done during the trading day to prevent said losses for that day
  • not discussing during the trading day's webinar, those customizations that more experienced traders are already making to prevent massive drawdowns, whilest letting others experience them,
  • preventing cross talk amongst serious and committed customers from sharing and improving other traders so that they are able to discuss what concerns them or swap improvements to prevent massive drawdowns and share positive experiences
  • waiting until evening to discuss chart patterns that appear so perfect long after the fact but in real time aren't so obvious, and not discussing them during the trading day where they can properly be traded (both on either the manual system or the AT systems)

what (I believe Zoe. is saying is) in order to reap the gains from the AT process, and limit, avoid, miss or skip over the losses, one still has to monitor in real time the AT process just to prevent the results of upside down trades (inverted positions) like the charts displayed (all 5 of them) just previously

what I believe Zoe. is saying is if one has to do all that monitoring and hand holding and mother hubbarding, then:
  • what is the advantage?,
  • what is the point?,
  • what has the successful sophisticated retail trader gained?

a logical conclusion to those questions implies (which may not have been as evident to all, but some have gotten the point, including my thick mindset) is:
  • its not likely that a knowing trader would have entered, or remained in those trades (refer back to the previously posted five (5) charts)
  • its not likely that the knowing trader would have traded during a chop session, whether based on outside events or news events or other factors not in evidence on the price chart, or remained trading (for that session, day, night, evening or scenario)
  • its not likely that manual trading would have produced the same losses

that having been said in logical simple terms, then a trader observing:
  • the price action on the charts,
  • the indicators and their alerts,
  • the market atmosphere,
  • taking into or ignoring all other intangible inputs from news sources
represents (most of) the net sum that a traders' mind goes through before deciding to click the button and commit to a position / trade

iow (in other words) the visual acuity process would not have lead a trader to have made the same series of consistently losing trades, and would have stopped themselves out from trading long before incurring a 56% drawdown on a well funded $5,000.00 account

so then what has an honest intentioned trader gained by using (anyone's, not just this one) an AT process when manual trading would most likely have had better results than what were observed (as described by those five (5) charts previously, as an objective discussion point)?

ok, gotta get back to trading,

no, neither Zoe. nor I are bashing anyone just discussing observations based on one's results and the foregoing discussion thread (i.e. contributions from others who have participated here)

cheers all

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  #59 (permalink)
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RussellViperB--Viper's AT poster child--just hit it's maximum daily loss of 80 ticks (default setting) in approximately 30 minutes.

OUCH!

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  #60 (permalink)
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Zoethecus View Post
RussellViperB--Viper's AT poster child--just hit it's maximum daily loss of 80 ticks (default setting) in approximately 30 minutes.

OUCH!

It just lost another 40 ticks.

Interesting system. Looks like it shorts bottoms and buys tops.

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