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Flux Capacitor - by Back to the Future


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Flux Capacitor - by Back to the Future

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  #1 (permalink)
 Alan 
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Has anybody tried or purchased the Flux Capacitor by Back to the Future?

I have seen one or two demos. The system / indicator looks pretty good. However, as this futures.io (formerly BMT) forum is trying to move to an indicator free trading environment, I wonder if this indicator is worth looking at! Time could be better spent learning to read price action.

The results posted on the site and shown in the online webinar are very good.

Here is the website - Back to the Future Trading

I would be curious to see what traders say about this system, particularly if they have purchased it. Is it worth the money? Did it help your trading?

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 sam028 
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Alan View Post
Has anybody tried or purchased the Flux Capacitor by Back to the Future?

I have seen one or two demos. The system / indicator looks pretty good. However, as this futures.io (formerly BMT) forum is trying to move to an indicator free trading environment, I wonder if this indicator is worth looking at! Time could be better spent learning to read price action.

The results posted on the site and shown in the online webinar are very good.

Here is the website - Back to the Future Trading

I would be curious to see what traders say about this system, particularly if they have purchased it. Is it worth the money? Did it help your trading?

Hmm, "Flux Capacitor", "Back to the Future", a website which looks like designed by 12 years old kid, ..., and 2995$ ?
Do you really think this is serious ???

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 Dragon 
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sam028 View Post
Hmm, "Flux Capacitor", "Back to the Future", a website which looks like designed by 12 years old kid, ..., and 2995$ ?
Do you really think this is serious ???

You are probably right... Then again with branding like that it could be a grail! There is only one way to find out. Sam will you please do us the honors?

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 sam028 
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You are probably right... Then again with branding like that it could be a grail! There is only one way to find out. Sam will you please do us the honors?

Sure, no problem .
But, first, I have to try something better and cheaper: the dozens of MT4 Forex robots (EA) !!!
Guys, you might check their websites/commercial, this is very very very funny.
See one of these bots website, and get ready to .
"+100% month, 0.4% drawdown, 99.87% winning trades, ...".

The real question is: who can trust this, and is able to pay for it ?
That is a big mystery for me...
The other question is: how can these scams can be legal ?
Strange...

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 DavidHP 
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sam028 View Post
Sure, no problem .
The real question is: who can trust this, and is able to pay for it ?
That is a big mystery for me...
The other question is: how can these scams can be legal ?
Strange...


I'm amazed at how many people get away with selling crap.

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 Jeff Castille 
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Well.....I don't know anything about the flux capacitor but.....I was interested to see that in their performance track record of the F-16 trade room they only trade between 9:30 and 11:30 EST.......this shows that they know something.

Also.....1:30-4:00 EST trading time.

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 KJAVED 
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I have one answer, if they have so accurate and good robots, then why not they make money for themselves 1st. If they are making so mch money then they donot have need to sell or lease such robots or strategies. Rest is clear to every one..............

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 benbrooke 
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I know Personally the guy who run the F16 Room (he is also Israeli guy)
i have access to his software and i know he and backtothefututre trading make a lot of money
i also know that on choppy days they loose money but for the long run they are very good

here is a picture from his trading room today

the dots are the prediction Buy and Sell zones and AMACD (MACD)
the lines are the system he use to trigger trades and bottom indicator use for divergence

i dont think you need to buy the flux , get a trial for 2 weeks in the room and you will see you get your money back from trading

ban.

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 Alan 
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Banbrooke,

The chart you posted above looks very much like the charts you post in the Scalping the Dow thread. Have you based your system on the F19 Room?

Do you still trade in the trading room? or do you trade alone?

I do not think that spending 2 or 3k on an indicator or system will save you and make you a better trader. I believe that trading is an art that comes from practice and reading the market. If you rely on a third party system, there will come a time when the system stops working or the user tweeks the settings and then losses will begin to creep into your trading, and before long you will be searching the internet again for the next holy grail solution to your battered ego and mounting losses. Welcome to the wonderful world of trading!

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 benbrooke 
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hey Alan ,

i took mordis (the person who runs the room) idea (D9) from the F16 room , this is why you see me using only D9
i used to trade with mordi but as a good friend of his he let me see his chart and prediction from the flux which i think works nice now i am trading by my self , the flux is not 100% system as you know nothing is , but if you combine the flux with a system that a killer.

what i was trying to say DONT BUY THE FLUX , get to F16 room (2 weeks trial) and you will see it for the subscription fee and i know that on the first week you will get it back and more , you should check his track record and videos on Home

and BTW we all rely on 3rd party indicators even using indicator from this site and dont get my wrong i love using indicators but as long is it simple to understand this is why i use the system that i post on scalping the DOW but i always like to see what mordis chart shows.

if you like contact mordi on his site and you can understand this better .

ban.

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 benbrooke 
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here is Monday prediction

DO NOT TRADE IT!!! WATCH IT!

some day when the indicator is not working they call it inverted days/zones

enjoy!

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 Peter2150 
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banbrooke View Post
here is Monday prediction

DO NOT TRADE IT!!! WATCH IT!

some day when the indicator is not working they call it inverted days/zones

enjoy!

Why to the predictive type foks always have "inversions" why not just call it a "this didn't work today" thingy.

Kind of like it works when it works, but some days it doesn't. Am I missing something

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 Big Mike 
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Peter2150 View Post
Why to the predictive type foks always have "inversions" why not just call it a "this didn't work today" thingy.

Kind of like it works when it works, but some days it doesn't. Am I missing something

Marketing.

You can't buy something that works every day. Only you can control that. But you could view it like chop vs trend, you take different actions depending on the scenario you are in... so it doesn't matter if you use their indicator and notice an "inversion", or if you use something completely different, what matters is telling the difference between working and not working.

And in the end, that means price action.

Mike

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 Peter2150 
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Marketing.

You can't buy something that works every day. Only you can control that. But you could view it like chop vs trend, you take different actions depending on the scenario you are in... so it doesn't matter if you use their indicator and notice an "inversion", or if you use something completely different, what matters is telling the difference between working and not working.

And in the end, that means price action.

Mike

I agree 100% Mike. My comments were a bit tongue in check.

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 benbrooke 
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agree too ,

this is why you use the FLUX with a system , this is not a system by its self
so you can take the flux and add your favorite indicator and this will confirm your trade

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 benbrooke 
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alan,

did the flux worked for you today?
it sure did to me

also look at mordi website tradersforce.com Home
and you can see how he used it (look at Software tab)

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 Alan 
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Thanks for the info Ban. The projection worked for me. Thanks for that. Do you do this every day before you trade and do you use this info to make better trades? or is just something pretty to look at with a 50% chance of being somewhat right?

I'm not knocking it, just merely asking a question.

I'll get in touch with Mordi and have a chat. Thanks for setting that up for me.

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 benbrooke 
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this is a part of my home work ,
when i trade the D9 system i will always look at the signals from the D9 also the D9 predict value and combine all this info to a system , and this gives me an hedge

Mordi told me he send you a skype request

thanks

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gregor32
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I used this before it was sold by back to the future trading and honestly its not very good.

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 benbrooke 
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who did you buy it from ?

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 dandxg 
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Okay I'll bite. I watched a number of their videos and the idea seems solid, data mining for patterns over the recent term, to give you advance warnings. The fact that they show losers and claim approx. 70 percent ok.

So what the deal with 2 vendors and websites? Mordi, Ron, Michael? Whom? Is it the same product, improved, not? Why do they look different from website to website?

Frankly, I don't think know days in advance is a big plus. Hell I would pay good $$$ for a legitimate product that could predict 5 minutes in advance with 70-80% accuracy.

If they are trying to get looks with a cheesy name then congrats.

Ban do you actually use this tool to make money? How about posting some predictions after the 1st of the year? That would be appreciated much. Like most I have been around the block 4 times minimum. Good trading to all.

Dan

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 famed 
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i'm using the flux as well and was in mordi's room. flux is a software by back to the future trading, mordi is someone who uses flux with his own system and runs his own room (tradersforce.com)...bttft recommends its users to subscribe to mordi's room for better results than their own setups with the flux, hence the different websites.
flux gives you institutional buying/selling times in advance. the timing depends on the lookback period you have selected (recommended is 20). i would say it works 65% of the time in ES but from what i've seen in classes it works much better on gold, soybeans and crude oil. i use my own setups to trade the flux; one of them is to use 2 lookback periods 20 and 70 days and when they give the same timing for buy/sell it usually is a strong move in the direction.

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 dandxg 
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Does Mordi trade anything but ES? I like GC also. Thanks for explanation makes more sense.

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you're welcome. till i was in the room he traded the ES only.
bttft have a weekly webinar every thursday and they also let you sit in the live classes with live trades and timing (for ES, GC, CL etc.). you should register for that if you're interested and will also give you a better idea if it is something for you.

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 benbrooke 
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guys,

i am trading with mordi and he is trading now also the CL (since no trend on indexes)
here is a chart from the room today
look at the bar colors and buy and sell signals (remember buy above the 2nd blue bar short below the 2nd red bar , this will keep out of bad trades)

ban.

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 dandxg 
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So does he show the flux in the room or not? I ask because after watching his videos he doesn't show the flux in any of them just his red blue bars, which obviously you are.

I appreciate you posting your charts. Hopefully you will continue to do so. I am on holiday until the 8th but plan on contacting him.

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dandxg View Post
So does he show the flux in the room or not? I ask because after watching his videos he doesn't show the flux in any of them just his red blue bars, which obviously you are.

I appreciate you posting your charts. Hopefully you will continue to do so. I am on holiday until the 8th but plan on contacting him.

he does not share flux charts on his screen, only his charts which may or may not have the flux buy/sell dots with the timings. he will share the flux charts on the screen for a while if you ask him to. he does this because he assumes everyone in the room already has flux.
if you like GC then i suggest you take a look at sp500guru.com; there are 2 rooms, one for ES only and the other, premium room, for ES and GC. they bought from 1000 area all the way upto 1200 and reversed from there, still short with 1150-70 as maj res now and major target of 1020.

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 bgtrader 
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Hi y'all,
I have a theory on the software ingredients that comprise the Back to the Future prediction engine.
1) Neuroshell Day Trader Professional Software
This software can be found at Neuroshell (can't post links yet, only first post And this link, shows several of their models that used neural network & genetic algorithms to predict price sometimes 5 days in the future based on the software studying past data:
Look for their link of GeeWhiz examples under "Product Info"
2) There are many available plug-ins to Neuroshell, which Neuroshell can use in it's strategy models and prediction models. The plug-in list can be found here:
under "Product Info", under Add-ons
3) There is one plug-in company whose indicators look remarkable like Back to the Future's AMACD and Power Zone, to my eyes,...the company is called Icinder. Their website is:
Icinder
4) I theorize that the AMACD is actually iCinDER™ V2, link to desciption at their site with chart with V2.

What can be done with Neuroshell and this indicator is Neuroshell can analyze 50-60 days of price data and predict the V2 indicator forward hours and/or days.
5) I theorize that the Power Zone is actually iCinDER™ W3, link to description here:
at their Icinder site
image here:
also at site
Notice, how the W3 indicator is tracking longer/larger cycles/moves and the V2 is tracking price more closely like the AMACD. Again, Neuroshell can analyze W3 over years or months of data and predict W3 hours, minutes, and/or days in the future.
Icinder's help manual with a little more information can be found here:
look up at the Icinder site the link "Icinder for Neuroshell", then you can find a link that says something like "you can access help files for v2 and w3 here"
Go through their tutorial and you'll see some prediction examples with Neuroshell and with Neuroshell's other software package for trading as well as science apps called "Chaos Hunter"

I believe that prediction algorithms could be discovered within Neuroshell with W3 and V2, perhaps different prediction algos for different markets, then coded up for Ninja Trader or other platforms, rename the indicators, but keep the code and prediction algorithms, then supply Ninja Trader with historical data and let the algo + indicator analyze and then predict their plots a certain amount into the future.

Obviously, there could be more inputs/variables that went into the prediction algorithm, but I'm pretty confident that I'm on the trail here. There are a few other well known AI prediction trading software analysis/forecast packages out there: Wave59 has one, Mark Jurik has his own version, Biocomp Systems have 2 packages...I believe their package Profit 8.0 has this predict ability-could be there other one-and there are other lesser known ones...such as Salford Systems MARS-Multivariate Adaptive Regression Splines at Salford Systems website...which is supposedly the super duper industrial strength engine for such predictions...which could also be fed similar Icinder cycle indicator formulas with price data to produce prediction formulas. They could have studied Icinder or like formulas with these packages and then written their own more portable neural net/genetic algo for pluging into Ninja Trader/Metatrader...that's my theory.

I think it's very interesting how AI can help us in analyzing the markets...Neuroshell is a pricey package, but, if a group of trading buddies all pitched in together, it could be a fun toolset to create strategies and prediction models that a group could share. Another Neuroshell plug-in company that intrigues me is Noxa Analytics at "NoxaPredict"

there's a Noxa downloadable tutorial and pdfs at their site, just snoop around for the Neuroshell Noxa packages, and you might have to give them name/email to get access to some of the pdfs...

here's a Noxa link to their Entropy indicators/tools: somewhere at their site

Again, the important thing here is that all these tools inside of a package like Neuroshell can study past price and predict themselves into the future. And, I believe you could then either code up or buy the rights to neural nets/genetic algos (i.e. Jurik's engines) and port them into Ninja Trader with the goal of predicting certain indicators that you could also buy the rights to & rename or code up something similar. Curious to hear your guys feedback on this theory.
-happy near year and best wishes always, I go sleep,
BG

p.s. from my studies in ES, I'd say the reason Flux doesn't work as well is because the ES has many more institutions battling each other's positions and has greater volume thus greater numbers of players interacting with eachother, making it harder to predict with such models, BUT easier to predict using simple volume tracking methods like VSA and cumulative delta bid/ask volume indexing, etc, just have to remember that the cycles are often jumpier & quicker for intraday, that's the trade off for all that liquidity...if someone studied the intricacies of volume cycles of the ES, I believe the prediction models could be better tuned to provide more accurate readings. But, it makes sense that less violent, slightly to greatly less liquid contracts that trend a bit longer/smoother would show up better under the prediction models...and obviously it makes sense that contracts that represented something real/natural like a commodity or even a currency may have more natural cycles that could be picked up easier than the battles going on in the ES.

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 bgtrader 
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a great number of points in this quote are spoken about in Back the Futures free webinar recording...


iCinDER™ Algorithms

The algorithms used in the iCinDER™ family of indicators are extractions of dimensions of price, time and attributes of the aforementioned. They specifically address the cyclical nature of market instruments and are an attempt to measure the Minor, Intermediate and Major Cycles as addressed in the Dow Theory and Elliott Wave Theory. These specific indicators have been enhanced with volatility measurements and convergence and divergence algorithms. The specific timeframes for the products have been tested and have been found to be a “best match” for financial instruments, such as stocks, indices, ETFs and Futures. The time model has a high correlation to the business cycle and its measurements. The model measures specific timeframe cycles and integrates an overall cycle measurement algorithm that evaluates the dimensions of time, price and entropy. The result is an approximation to the dominant cycle with midpoint levels and cycle start and stops at the troughs of the indicator. A secondary abstraction, in the form of a sine wave provides an approximation of the view of the cycle in a wave format. With this information in hand the technical analyst can access the bullish or bearish bias of the financial instrument and make a reasonable assumption as to the possible trend movement of the financial instrument.

----------------------------------------------------------

Remember, with a neural net/genetic algos package like Neuroshell, you can train the above mentioned algorithms to forecast themselves many bars into the future, thus plotting the AMACD (V2 imho) and Power Zone (W3 imho) forward in time according to cycles/etc...that the neural net/genetic algos found and predict will repeat in the future.

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 dandxg 
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Thanks for the feedback BG. I was thinking the same from the start, but don't have a background in programming to create an algo, which is what they have. I mean aren't we really just talking about advanced data mining for patterns? I think their look pretty impressive but an algo nonetheless.

It's funny you mention Jurik as they even refer to him more than once. I actually looked at Wave 59 and was a bit put off by the you need to pay extra to learn if you really want to learn our best tools attitude.

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 bgtrader 
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Right on Dan, I felt the same way about the cost structure at 59...very cool ideas, but I think alot of software/education companies are missing the boat with cost structure. As the current trend is for more and more of these free-to-inexpensive trading communities continue sprouting up (like Mike's), I don't think that these companies realize that they'd get so many more clients, and probably happy clients, if they just simplified the structure to something like 100-250/month all-in....1000 clients, and you know what a good month looks like lol. Instead, they mostly opt for the 2 grand here, 600 there, 4 grand here, and 299/month. I never understood that. I'm not much of a Tradethemarkets fan, but wow, what a business model, $295/month at 1000+ users...300+k/month...and they are still stuck in squeeze land...amazing. I guess they sell all sorts of junk too...but the potential to earn that much in a month, makes you think the priority should be a reasonable monthly rate and forget all these extra expenses.

anyway, Back to the Future (lol), or the present or whatever. Like you said, I think it's data mining, pattern mining, cycle mining, using a bit of something similar to Hurst stuff....there's an esignal indicator guy at site: sr-analyst, I believe his name is Chris, he's got a Hurst-like cycle projection package he calls Cycle Pack that kind of does this flux stuff on the esignal platform for $30/month. I think it's all very interesting. It's funny listening to the Flux sales pitch, mentioning Gann, Elliott, this guy and that guy...do you believe, don't you believe??? I think they would attract more people if they just said, 'Hey, complex computer algos search the data, find statistically powerful sets, and project them..." Sales is tough, I guess. I'm excited down the road, when I have some more money to play with, to experiment with neural net/genetic prediction models...I'd like to add volume cycles to the data sets.
-best wishes always,
Brian

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 dandxg 
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I just stopped into EOT's room, I took a month off, and they have neural nets running, hmm? Pretty cool I have yet to see it in action.

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 dandxg 
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So I contacted Mordi as Banbrooke suggested and he is leaving the company? Kinda strange. The guy whom runs their F-16 room is bailing yet the indicator is supposed to work so well ? We'll see when I check out their webinar this week.

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 benbrooke 
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Dandxg

Mordi is leaving the company because he wants to be independent
i know that the FLUX works for him (he is my trading buddy and we sharing ideas)

did you go to the webinar? if so what do you think about the product?

ban.

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 dandxg 
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banbrooke View Post
Dandxg

Mordi is leaving the company because he wants to be independent
i know that the FLUX works for him (he is my trading buddy and we sharing ideas)

did you go to the webinar? if so what do you think about the product?

ban.

I thought it was pretty impressive. Like I told Michael I want to see some more forecast and predictions ahead of time not historical results. He is supposed to be sending me some for tomorrow.

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 tradingonvolume 
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I own this indicator. I bought it from the original programmer before back to the future bought it and butchered it with marketing.
It has valid logic behind it in terms of cycles. You just can't trade it the way they teach. It sucks for that. It was $300 when the original guy was selling it and then Michael, who doesn't trade, is selling it for 2k. For that much it's not worth it.
So, it does work, just not like they think. LOL.

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 dandxg 
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tradingonvolume View Post
I own this indicator. I bought it from the original programmer before back to the future bought it and butchered it with marketing.
It has valid logic behind it in terms of cycles. You just can't trade it the way they teach. It sucks for that. It was $300 when the original guy was selling it and then Michael, who doesn't trade, is selling it for 2k. For that much it's not worth it.
So, it does work, just not like they think. LOL.

Please elaborate would you? Who is the programmer? I am considering buying it from them. Are you fading the indicator? I saw it live and I was pretty impressed. There were some losers. Just looking for some objective feedback. Good trading to all.

Dan

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 TickMiner 
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The person who wrote it is Ben at AffordableIndicators.com . I almost bought it when it was $300 but then they went and re-branded it. So it's not available any more for that price.

Since then I've been working on duplicating it as a background project (one of to many). It's fairly simple in that it does statistical averages of various previous days based on how you set it up. For example you can set it up to take the last ten Mondays and run it through the statistical averaging function they use and produce a prediction for the current day.

The indicator has inversions on a regular basis. To trade with the inversions they use other TA methods to not get faked out on the inversions. I believe that where the inversions happens is predictable and want to add this feature.

I believe it has merit but needs refined and definitely can't be used a standalone system but with other TA methods can be developed into a nice trading system.

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 tradingonvolume 
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jwiese View Post
The person who wrote it is Ben at AffordableIndicators.com . I almost bought it when it was $300 but then they went and re-branded it. So it's not available any more for that price.

I believe it has merit but needs refined and definitely can't be used a standalone system but with other TA methods can be developed into a nice trading system.

jwiesse is correct on both counts. It was available from Ben for about 6 months before Michael bought it. Ben is not part of the marketing team over there.

And yes if you wanted, and had the skills, you could duplicate it easily.

No I don't fade it nor do I trade it by itself. It is really cool in that it's fairly accurate. You must always have your own reasons to be getting in the trade ontop of this. That's what I do. I take my normal entries in line with this. I love cycles so this ties right in nicely. However you can't trade it as a stand-alone. Even how they scalp it sucks. Basic chart reading would get them far better entries since the signals are 'windows' of opportunity.

Would I personally pay 2000 for it? No. $300? yes. When Ben came up with it there was a lot of integrity and ingenuity behind it. When I hear Michael speak about it it takes away credability to something worth while. I'm sure some of the great coders here could duplicate it if they were so inclined.
I know a guy who replicated it exactly for tradestaion but it will never be shared or released due to copyright issues. He just kept it for personal use, nobody's seen the code but him but I had his screenshots to compare to my own and it was spot on.

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 dandxg 
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jwiese View Post
The person who wrote it is Ben at AffordableIndicators.com . I almost bought it when it was $300 but then they went and re-branded it. So it's not available any more for that price.

Since then I've been working on duplicating it as a background project (one of to many). It's fairly simple in that it does statistical averages of various previous days based on how you set it up. For example you can set it up to take the last ten Mondays and run it through the statistical averaging function they use and produce a prediction for the current day.

The indicator has inversions on a regular basis. To trade with the inversions they use other TA methods to not get faked out on the inversions. I believe that where the inversions happens is predictable and want to add this feature.

I believe it has merit but needs refined and definitely can't be used a standalone system but with other TA methods can be developed into a nice trading system.

Thanks much. When I watched the presentation Michael was suggesting filtering their trades with some proprietary S/R lines which did increase the accuracy.

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 dandxg 
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tradingonvolume View Post
jwiesse is correct on both counts. It was available from Ben for about 6 months before Michael bought it. Ben is not part of the marketing team over there.

And yes if you wanted, and had the skills, you could duplicate it easily.

No I don't fade it nor do I trade it by itself. It is really cool in that it's fairly accurate. You must always have your own reasons to be getting in the trade ontop of this. That's what I do. I take my normal entries in line with this. I love cycles so this ties right in nicely. However you can't trade it as a stand-alone. Even how they scalp it sucks. Basic chart reading would get them far better entries since the signals are 'windows' of opportunity.

Would I personally pay 2000 for it? No. $300? yes. When Ben came up with it there was a lot of integrity and ingenuity behind it. When I hear Michael speak about it it takes away credability to something worth while. I'm sure some of the great coders here could duplicate it if they were so inclined.
I know a guy who replicated it exactly for tradestaion but it will never be shared or released due to copyright issues. He just kept it for personal use, nobody's seen the code but him but I had his screenshots to compare to my own and it was spot on.

Thanks I appreciate the feedback. Good info. It's nice to hear that you agree it's fairly accurate. I was impressed in that they show losses as well as wins. Red lights always go off when vendors show nothing but wins. I have always been skeptical of cycles, especially Gann. I know they exist in life, but predicting them has never show much promise, IMO> The reason I am considering them is that the principle is logical, to me at least.

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 tradingonvolume 
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Good luck with it dandxg. If you do go ahead we could start a thread here on how to actually trade it. It's pointless if noone else has the indicator though.

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 Zoethecus 
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Peter2150 View Post
Why to the predictive type forks always have "inversions" why not just call it a "this didn't work today" thingy.

Kind of like it works when it works, but some days it doesn't. Am I missing something

Peter, educational trading vendor marketing 101 calls for turning a negative trade into a positive with esoteric tradingbabble. It makes the vendor sound like he knows more than the person they are trying to fleece. And human nature is such that we tend to look up to and perhaps admire those who we think no more than we do.

Take a free trial if you have the time, but never reached into your pocket to buy this.

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 earlyriser 
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Zoethecus View Post
Peter, educational trading vendor marketing 101 calls for making a negative trade into a positive with esoteric tradingbabble. It makes the vendor sound like he knows more than the person they are trying to fleece. And human nature is such that we tend to look up to and perhaps admire those who we think no more than we do.

Take a free trial if you have the time, but never reached into your pocket to buy this.


Thanks I missed that they offered a free trial. I just ran across this thread and forum. Great forum good thread.

As mentioned earlier its data mining for patterns no? I makes sense, we all know patterns exist.

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 TickMiner 
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Peter2150 View Post
Why to the predictive type foks always have "inversions" why not just call it a "this didn't work today" thingy.

Kind of like it works when it works, but some days it doesn't. Am I missing something

I see inversions differently and don't think we should throw out a method because they occur. When I see inversions I don't see it as an issue. But they point to a more complex system.

After studying market cycles for a while in effort to see if there's any repeating patterns I believe that there are predictable and repeating patterns or cycles but they are complex. And this conclusion didn't come about easily since it has so many ramifications and goes against my scientific and engineering based training. Once I did come around now I see the market and other things in nature differently. What look like pure randomness is more like chaos that has a more predictable underline structure.

Inversions in the market cycle is one of the effects that hide the cycle pattern. One place that inversions appears is in Welles Willder's "The Delta Phenomenon or The Hidden Order of all Markets". A great starting point for studying market cycles. The more you dig into market cycles the deeper the rabbit hole goes, far beyond Wilder's work. My trading partner has a trading system that uses predictive methods and they do work. With out seeing this first hand I wouldn't have believed it.

As stated before I do believe it's possible to predict when these inversion will happen. Also you don't need to predict when the inversion will happen if you combine it with other TA signals. So when a system works a lot and then doesn't due to a inversion don't despair and say it's no good. The indicator isn't accounting for these natural repeatable inversions that need to be accounted for separately.

John

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 earlyriser 
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jwiese View Post
I see inversions differently and don't think we should throw out a method because they occur. When I see inversions I don't see it as an issue. But they point to a more complex system.

After studying market cycles for a while in effort to see if there's any repeating patterns I believe that there are predictable and repeating patterns or cycles but they are complex. And this conclusion didn't come about easily since it has so many ramifications and goes against my scientific and engineering based training. Once I did come around now I see the market and other things in nature differently. What look like pure randomness is more like chaos that has a more predictable underline structure.

Inversions in the market cycle is one of the effects that hide the cycle pattern. One place that inversions appears is in Welles Willder's "The Delta Phenomenon or The Hidden Order of all Markets". A great starting point for studying market cycles. The more you dig into market cycles the deeper the rabbit hole goes, far beyond Wilder's work. My trading partner has a trading system that uses predictive methods and they do work. With out seeing this first hand I wouldn't have believed it.

As stated before I do believe it's possible to predict when these inversion will happen. Also you don't need to predict when the inversion will happen if you combine it with other TA signals. So when a system works a lot and then doesn't due to a inversion don't despair and say it's no good. The indicator isn't accounting for these natural repeatable inversions that need to be accounted for separately.

John


Sometimes I feel like Moulder on X files. I want to believe, but when I hear about Gann and no proof I just go yeah right.
Flux seemed more logical, advanced data mining not really prediction like Gann or EW.

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 Big Mike 
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 bgtrader 
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Hi guys,
Glad to read all the good critiques here. I think there's definitely a new trend in retail trading software to include forecasting techniques, and I'm sure it'll slowly become a standard in most charting packages. I would definitely save my money and not go "all in" on some indicators that we could later create as a team and will only get better and cheaper very soon. In the meantime however, there are a few very affordable alternatives that may have some advantages over the flux:

1. Cycle Pack by Chris at sr-analyst. Very cool stuff, forecasts turning points with predicted down swing/ up swing, based partially on Hurst cycle theory and signal processing. And, $30/month.

2. MAP included in Ensign Charting Software, at Ensign. There are very interesting articles about this unique Neural Net forecasting engine. It was supposedly developed originally by a genius weapon's scientist Dennis Regan, who supposedly went about creating an out of the box neural network forecasting solution involving a perspective similar to how a bat uses frequencies to get a sonic image of an environment. Later it was revived & attempted to be backward engineered by Larry Pesavento and a head guy at Ensign. Now it's included in their software package. Cost $45/month. Interestingly, the MAP forecast requires optimally 50-60 days of past data...just like Flux. Definitely some LOLs when you realize that GFTForex is reselling the same forecasting engine for $500/month PER CURRENCY pair, and they call it "Foresight AI"!!! And this guy Tom, is reselling it for $99/month at The Market Maps: Dow, FTSE, Dax and NASDAQ. Good elitetrader dialogue about the MAP's lineage here:
Forums - "Market Map" - anybody using it ?
Check out screenshots of the MAP at the ensign site and themarketmap site, has all the same ideas, sync predictions, inversions...etc...

:bmt-rocks:

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 bgtrader 
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Hey,
From a different angle, Jason Goepfert over at sentimenTrader - Independent Sentiment Research for the Stock and Bond Markets, has some intraday timing models based on market internals and intermarket stuff. Their fastest model updates every 30 min, so it's really good for the intraday extremes. You can see the page about his timing models here:
Models
I had a great conversation with a fund manager in California who has all of his money personally invested in Jason's market timing signals. It's $25/month. Combining a cycles/neural forecast with the market internal timing models would definitely put more probabilities in your favor for understanding potential inversions and whether a cycle is tradeable or not. This combo would be lethal in my humble opinion, way better than an expensive indicator package alone and at roughly 1/100th of the cost. Let's all buy low and sell high in the markets. Jason is a really great guy and their team is very approachable for phone conversation about their tools.

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 dandxg 
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bgtrader View Post
Hey,
From a different angle, Jason Goepfert over at sentimenTrader - Independent Sentiment Research for the Stock and Bond Markets, has some intraday timing models based on market internals and intermarket stuff. Their fastest model updates every 30 min, so it's really good for the intraday extremes. You can see the page about his timing models here:
Models
I had a great conversation with a fund manager in California who has all of his money personally invested in Jason's market timing signals. It's $25/month. Combining a cycles/neural forecast with the market internal timing models would definitely put more probabilities in your favor for understanding potential inversions and whether a cycle is tradeable or not. This combo would be lethal in my humble opinion, way better than an expensive indicator package alone and at roughly 1/100th of the cost. Let's all buy low and sell high in the markets. Jason is a really great guy and their team is very approachable for phone conversation about their tools.

Interesting I tried his service and I thought it lagged too much. Maybe because I was looking for a tick by tick cumulative tick. But its got value and the price is right.

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 cunparis 
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bgtrader View Post
Hey,
From a different angle, Jason Goepfert over at sentimenTrader - Independent Sentiment Research for the Stock and Bond Markets,

I was a subscriber for 1 year. Jason is a great guy, very nice and founds really interesting facts and statistics. The problem is they have no predictive value. I've done extensive tests on his models, STEM, etc. and I found no predictive value. In fact the only time I found predictive value was when I accidently didn't account for the timestamp differences and I was looking at his models 30 minutes into the future. Then they had precitive value. So that tells me that price is involved in the models some how and they turn once price has confirmed. That means they lag and are not useful. I even wrote to him and told him my findings and asked him if he could provide me with an example of one of his data that had predictive value. He was not able to do so.

I spent hundreds of hours studying this stuff, downloading his excel files, importing into Ninjatrader, and backtesting every idea imagineable. I wanted to believe so bad that his information had predictive value.

I'm not knocking him or his service, if you want breadth data & statistics he is the best. I'm knocking breadth data & statistics because they do not have predictive value! If you think his site will tell you when the market will turn you will be disappointed.

Once I stopped using his service and just based all my trading decisions on price & volume, I started a 4 month winning streak.

Price & Volume tell you everything you need.

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 bgtrader 
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hi cunparis,
Glad that someone with experience in Sentimentrader chimed in. I tried Jason's free trial for 2 weeks and had no where the depth of experimentation that you did. Price and volume indeed One trading mentor of mine has a very simple 2 chart setup where he's found that the $TICK does have some predictive value if watched on very fast chart. His setup is 3 tick renko bars with wicks for price excursion, cumulative bid/ask delta of volume underneath, and 30 second candlestick chart of the NYSE $TICK with adaptive moving average. As I'm sure many of us have seen, often the burst trends in the TICK precede moves in the ES.

Cunparis, you ever play around with Neural/Genetic forecasts, any comments? Also, real quick, my hunch was that Jason's models could be used to anticipate over-extendedness. So, do you think there's any predictive value in noticing when STEM is close to oversold/overly pessimistic but hasn't turned, thereby saying to one's price/volume research, "Okay, now we're looking for signs of bottom, accumulation, short covering, etc...expecting turn to upside" vice versa for top?

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 cunparis 
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bgtrader View Post
hi cunparis,
Glad that someone with experience in Sentimentrader chimed in. I tried Jason's free trial for 2 weeks and had no where the depth of experimentation that you did. Price and volume indeed One trading mentor of mine has a very simple 2 chart setup where he's found that the $TICK does have some predictive value if watched on very fast chart. His setup is 3 tick renko bars with wicks for price excursion, cumulative bid/ask delta of volume underneath, and 30 second candlestick chart of the NYSE $TICK with adaptive moving average. As I'm sure many of us have seen, often the burst trends in the TICK precede moves in the ES.

I use $TICK on a 1min chart and I've been using a variation of bid/ask delta (it's labeled better momentum and/or my momentum in charts, look in the cycles thread). I'm currently experimenting with cumulative version. So I'm probably not far from the setup of your friend. I also simplified and went from 3 timeframes to 2. I want it as simple as possible. You'll find some recent trades in my cycles thread in the VIP forum.


Quoting 
Cunparis, you ever play around with Neural/Genetic forecasts, any comments? Also, real quick, my hunch was that Jason's models could be used to anticipate over-extendedness. So, do you think there's any predictive value in noticing when STEM is close to oversold/overly pessimistic but hasn't turned, thereby saying to one's price/volume research, "Okay, now we're looking for signs of bottom, accumulation, short covering, etc...expecting turn to upside" vice versa for top?

I don't really care about models. They can get pegged at oversold for a long time. I prefer to study the volume that will determine when markets turn. HVC & order flow.

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HyperionFX
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Any idea if the MarketMap service is still available? I went to the site and it has chart examples from 2006 only. I tried to email them to enquire about their 7 day trial and their email bounced.

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  #55 (permalink)
 bgtrader 
fairfield, ct
 
Experience: Advanced
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Hi Hyperion,
Um, I'd forget about themarketmap.com site. If you want to play with the MAP technology, go straight to Ensign Software for charting, as they have the MAP built in and have a community of users that you can interact with. Ensign owns the rights to the MAP and was integral in bringing it's indicators to the marketplace. The other site is using Ensign's software and charging more. Ensign is a charting package filled with good tools & has a very lage/loyal user group that shares ideas. For forex, you may be able to power ensign with data from the forex broker you already use; I'm not sure, but the Ensign guys are great to work with, so give them a call and they'll set you straight if you want to play with the MAP in Forex or any market. Some links:
Ensign Software
daCharts e-mini index futures chat community and charts (Dacharts.com is a free online trading community, many users use Ensign)
Here is a link to searching Ensign's site for any articles on the MAP:
Ensign Software - Search

Please let us know if you experiment with this tool Best wishes to you and all the good folks here, B

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  #56 (permalink)
 dandxg 
Denver, Colorado
 
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bgtrader View Post
Hi Hyperion,
Um, I'd forget about themarketmap.com site. If you want to play with the MAP technology, go straight to Ensign Software for charting, as they have the MAP built in and have a community of users that you can interact with. Ensign owns the rights to the MAP and was integral in bringing it's indicators to the marketplace. The other site is using Ensign's software and charging more. Ensign is a charting package filled with good tools & has a very lage/loyal user group that shares ideas. For forex, you may be able to power ensign with data from the forex broker you already use; I'm not sure, but the Ensign guys are great to work with, so give them a call and they'll set you straight if you want to play with the MAP in Forex or any market. Some links:
Ensign Software
daCharts e-mini index futures chat community and charts (Dacharts.com is a free online trading community, many users use Ensign)
Here is a link to searching Ensign's site for any articles on the MAP:
Ensign Software - Search

Please let us know if you experiment with this tool Best wishes to you and all the good folks here, B

Ensign is great for the esoteric. I spent some time with the Pesevento Map, it's suggested using a short time frame such as 2 minute charts. As I recall it based on where fib projection/extensions/time cycles should be. As with any projection/forecasting methods it has inversions........direct opposite blow outs of the prediction.

If you are going to try Ensign you may want to look at Pyrapoint. I can't say that I fully understand how to use it, but there is definitely something there.

BTW, regarding back to BTF, I have sat in on a few of their demos and they are pretty darn accurate. I am a probably going to stay on my own, having found an affinity for Murrey Math, but I would recommend anyone taking a look. It's based on sound logical principles.

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HyperionFX
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bgtrader View Post
Hi Hyperion,
Um, I'd forget about themarketmap.com site. If you want to play with the MAP technology, go straight to Ensign Software for charting, as they have the MAP built in and have a community of users that you can interact with. Ensign owns the rights to the MAP and was integral in bringing it's indicators to the marketplace. The other site is using Ensign's software and charging more. Ensign is a charting package filled with good tools & has a very lage/loyal user group that shares ideas. For forex, you may be able to power ensign with data from the forex broker you already use; I'm not sure, but the Ensign guys are great to work with, so give them a call and they'll set you straight if you want to play with the MAP in Forex or any market. Some links:
Please let us know if you experiment with this tool Best wishes to you and all the good folks here, B

Hello bgtrader.
Thanks for the heads-up on Ensign. I checked out their site and they are reasonably priced with an extensive study collection and the MAP. So they are definitely a serious new option for me with regards to real time data feeds although their updated intraday MAP can be quite a hit or miss game.
Yes I have given up on themarketmap site, although I did find another site called marketpatternforecast.com which is very similar. The problem for me with these cyclical forecasts are the periods of inversion which I understand is a natural consequence but it can really throw a spanner into the works.

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 BTTFT Michael 
East Bend
 
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We appreciate the activity on the thread...it's a great compliment to hear the things traders are saying about our software.

While my web development skills are not the greatest, I will stand by this software and it's abilities, and let them speak for themselves.

(edited: removed multiple paragraphs of text with details on the system -- Big Mike)

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  #59 (permalink)
 Scott305 
Columbus OH
 
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Flux Capicator folks periodically send me charts since I attended a webinar. How confident can they be when they refuse to allow a trial period. Not even one week. Seriously laughable.

From what I've seen:
their charts seems to be right 33% of the time. Market will go opposite projected direction 33% and is completely out of step 33% of the time. If you think you can use that to make money consistently than power to ya.

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 BTTFT Michael 
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Scott,

This is Michael, of BTTFT.

Please don't be cavalier with words like "laughable" when posting about our site. People actually read this forum. Gentlemen like you, that don't own the product and have no experience, love to post what they think the product actually does or doesn't do with no actual experience.

(edited: removed offer -- Big Mike)

(edited: removed details about system -- Big Mike)


There's nothing laughable about what we do. (edited: removed references and comparisons to competitors -- Big Mike) We spend 2 months erasing old habits, and 2 months rebuilding live saving habits, including but not limited to trading plan development, strategy development, back testing and model analysis, money management, and emotional trading state control techniques.

(edited: removed details about system -- Big Mike)

(edited: removed offer -- Big Mike)


Please consider the effect such a post has on someone that has never been to the webinar or done their due diligence or asked for a trial yet.

It completely discourages them and prevents them from the potential of ever escaping the gravity of their trading sins, and getting into a program that Mark Douglas and Jack Schwager would be proud of.

Michael

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 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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One thing I don't like about the trading "community" is false or fake information.
Your "facts" of 33% this, 33% that are rediculous considering you haven't seen but a few screenshots.
They probably don't offer trials because of how easily trials are converted to the full version in ninja.
The indicator has merit but you'll have to find it. It's not the red light, green light holy Grail that most are looking for. It's not predictive, no cycle indicator is, it probabilities.
The old adage applies here. Don't knock it till you try it.

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  #62 (permalink)
 Scott305 
Columbus OH
 
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I stand by what I wrote. At the end of the webinar I asked for a trial. I was told tersely, "No, we don't do that." Now I see a posting that contradicts that. Somebody should tell the guy doing the webinars.

I have received 6 days covering 4 markets thru email. Again, what I observed was what I wrote...
1/3 time it worked, etc, etc. It is not hard to understand what you're seeing on these screen shots. The lower line is supposed to show the bigger overall trend and the upper line is supposed to show the wiggles within that trend.

You want to buy it? Buy it. But from what I've seen, I understand why no trial.

Lastly, to Michael... if you want to offer a free trial then post the info here and I'm sure you'll be able to get plenty of takers. Of course I'll take another look if you're offering a more substantial look than a handful of emails.

All I know is what I've seen. Good day.

Scott

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  #63 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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Scott305 View Post
All I know is what I've seen. Good day.
Scott

Exactly, you haven't seen anything. You can post an opinion of what you think might be the case but don't post 'facts' and 'statistics' based on nothing. The trading comminity is full of false information and you're not helping.

Attached, real trades of how I trade it. If I get a signal and have one of my proprietary S/R lines then I take it. Consider that I only scalp for 1 - 2 points. 3 - 5 tick stop.

So when someone tells me that what I use to trade is only 33% accurate and I am able to use it with 85% accuracy, over the long term, then I've got to call them on it. You're full of it Scott. Post some screenshots of trades that you would have actually taken with it that didn't work and ones that did work to back it up if you're that sure of yourself. Every dot isn't a signal, there has to be significance there. Maybe that's where your 'statistics' are coming from, if so then it's poor chart reading and trading ability, that would cause your kind of "results".

Again, any trial of a Ninja trader indicator can be converted to the full version with a little know how so I don't blame them for protecting their intellectual property.

If people would like to see more trades then just ask nicely. I'm not trying to sell anything over there. I just want to let people know it can work and I really respect the original creator of this.

Edit: added trades from Friday morning. I only trade mornings. Why trade more? 5+ points per contract there.

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 AR01 
CA
 
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tradingonvolume View Post
Exactly, you haven't seen anything. You can post an opinion of what you think might be the case but don't post 'facts' and 'statistics' based on nothing. The trading comminity is full of false information and you're not helping.

Attached, real trades of how I trade it. If I get a signal and have one of my proprietary S/R lines then I take it. Consider that I only scalp for 1 - 2 points. 3 - 5 tick stop.

So when some tells me that what I use to trade is only 33% accurate and I am able to use it with 85% accuracy, over the long term, then I've got to call them on it. You're full of it Scott. Post some screenshots of trades that you would have actually taken with it that didn't work and ones that did work to back it up if you're that sure of yourself. Every dot isn't a signal, there has to be significance there. Maybe that's where your 'statistics' are coming from, if so then it's poor trading ability that would cause your kind of results.

Again, any trial of a Ninja trader indicator can be converted to the full version with a little know how so I don't blame them for protecting their intellectual property.

If people would like to see more trades then just ask nicely. I'm not trying to sell anything over there. I just want to let people know it can work and I really respect the original creator of this.

Edit: added trades from Friday morning. I only trade mornings. Why trade more? 5+ points per contract there.

Just to clarify, the dots come from BTTFT proprietary indicator(s)?

Andrew

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  #65 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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AR01 View Post
Just to clarify, the dots come from BTTFT proprietary indicator(s)?

Andrew

Correct. You can see in the top left corner how it says CBC markers. That's the BTTF indi.
Also in the bottom right it says how many weeks the CBC is looking back.

There is a great amount of logic behind this indicator. I wouldn't use it if there wasn't and it wouldn't work if there wasn't.

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  #66 (permalink)
 aslan 
Madison, WI
 
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tradingonvolume View Post
There is a great amount of logic behind this indicator.

Dont be so sure, the basic algorithm is actually based on a very simple idea. Basically what happened last Monday and the Monday(s) before will happen again next Monday (based on time of day). Same for the other days of the week. There is a lot of code behind the indicator because they are doing some things that don't match that well with NT, but the basic premise is rather simple.

I own the indicator, and have seen days where you know this is the grail, and then there are the other days where my cup does not hold water. Most days are in between those extremes. IMO, this indicator can not be used by itself, but needs to be paired with something else. I currently am not using it.

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 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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aslan View Post
Dont be so sure, the basic algorithm is actually based on a very simple idea. Basically what happened last Monday and the Monday(s) before will happen again next Monday (based on time of day). Same for the other days of the week.

Exactly. That's the good amount of logic behind it. It's a cycle indicator. This is why you must use it in conjunction with other indicators. All cycle indicators need more specific timing. If we're in an upcycle or downcycle where do we trade, right? That's why I have my S/R lines.
If you need some help using it I could give you a hand.

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  #68 (permalink)
 dandxg 
Denver, Colorado
 
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What I don't understand is why they can't get better than 60% on their own that comes straight from Michael. I can do that right now with Market Profile and Market Delta actually better. They keep throwing things like reverse radar and they still only get 60%, no one expects 90% but 60% not great. One can flip a coin for free and get slightly worse results. And often the ones that do work are early or late in move from my viewing. I give them credit for being honest that's unique in trading.

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 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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dandxg View Post
What I don't understand is why they can't get better than 60% on their own that comes straight from Michael.

Agreed. It's up to you to get it past 60%. I think 60% is if you look at every single power zone. Personally I don't use the power zones. It's beyond my timeframe of trading. These trades with the "dots" are 85% with my S/R.

dandxg, if you're getting 60% then you're miles ahead of most traders. Nice work! With a consistent 60% you could increase your size to see nice profit with that percentage.

edit: attached are trades from the 12th and 13th of May, last week.

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  #70 (permalink)
 BTTFT Michael 
East Bend
 
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(edited: removed details of customers using system -- Big Mike)

(edited: removed details of system and offer -- Big Mike)


Looking at a few days of charts with no training is like analyzing your own MRI's and X-Rays. It can be done, but it's not advisable. I'm grateful for clients that post their own experiences in here, as well. There are many more that would be willing to talk to anyone that wants to know more. Contrary to the industry's reputation, we're actually here to help - not deceive.

(edited: removed reference to system -- Big Mike)

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 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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Good day folks, for those that are interested. Here are my trades from this morning using the flux indi. 11 points per contract.
When I get close to a time and an area then I read the tape for my entry. Most trades today had a 3 tick stop. My targets on a couple were 2 points, the rest were 1 point.

Now, who wants to talk about how this doesn't work? I've shown screenshots of 4 days in a row with consistent results. How could that be if it's only 33% correct? lol.

Enjoy! I sure did!

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  #72 (permalink)
 BTTFT Michael 
East Bend
 
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(edited: removed entire post about details and examples of system -- Big Mike)

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  #73 (permalink)
 Dragon 
Bellingham, WA
 
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tradingonvolume View Post
Good day folks, for those that are interested. Here are my trades from this morning using the flux indi. 11 points per contract.
When I get close to a time and an area then I read the tape for my entry. Most trades today had a 3 tick stop. My targets on a couple were 2 points, the rest were 1 point.

Now, who wants to talk about how this doesn't work? I've shown screenshots of 4 days in a row with consistent results. How could that be if it's only 33% correct? lol.

Enjoy! I sure did!

Do you mind showing your execution markers as to where you entered your trades?

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  #74 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
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Dragon View Post
Do you mind showing your execution markers as to where you entered your trades?

Sorry, I don't use Ninja as my DOM. I'm with sweet futures and use the Onyx2 platfom. I don't like mixing charting with trading.
I try to get my entry as close as possible to my S/R lines though by reading the tape for exhaustion.

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  #75 (permalink)
 Dragon 
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tradingonvolume View Post
Sorry, I don't use Ninja as my DOM. I'm with sweet futures and use the Onyx2 platfom. I don't like mixing charting with trading.
I try to get my entry as close as possible to my S/R lines though by reading the tape for exhaustion.

You gotta have something though that shows where/how you entered you trades right? At that point I could at least compare how close your entries are to the Flux system.

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  #76 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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Dragon View Post
You gotta have something though that shows where/how you entered you trades right? At that point I could at least compare how close your entries are to the Flux system.

I indicated entry price on this one. The flux system doesn't actually give entries. If I'm +/- 2-3mins of getting a signal and at an area of opportunity then I'll find an entry. It's usually right at my S/R or +/- 1 tick from it, usually.

edit: first short should read 38.25 not 34.25

If others are interested I'll post tomorrow as well but if noone really cares then I won't bother.

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  #77 (permalink)
 j0hnth0m 
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I'm interested in seeing more please.

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 tradingonvolume 
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Ok great, if there's even 1 person interested then I don't mind posting.

Today they made me wait all morning. I usually like to be done by 12 but didn't get my first trade until 12:30! If everything doesn't line up I don't take the trade. I almost had one off the open but I didn't get an entry. The 6 points per contract made up for the wait.

I noted the entries for Dragon.

This is a very nice way to trade because I know 8 minutes from now, 20 minutes from now, that I need to be alert. It saves energy being constantly intensly focused.

See you tomorrow.

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 dandxg 
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tradingonvolume View Post
Ok great, if there's even 1 person interested then I don't mind posting.

Today they made me wait all morning. I usually like to be done by 12 but didn't get my first trade until 12:30! If everything doesn't line up I don't take the trade. I almost had one off the open but I didn't get an entry. The 6 points per contract made up for the wait.

I noted the entries for Dragon.

See you tomorrow.

I am also interested in your charts. I have seen enough to know there is definitely something there because they are doing advanced data mining not predictions.

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 Dragon 
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Ok, so based on the charts you posted, I am already seeing that the dots are shooting over 60%. Now if you trade these dots with the trend you are doing much better than that. This is obvious, just sayin But I wonder if one needs to purchase the system when we can get the JeffDots/CCI stuff here at futures.io (formerly BMT) for free. I don't know, these might be better than the JeffDots/CCI. Please continue posting your charts...

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  #81 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
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Dragon View Post
Ok, so based on the charts you posted, I am already seeing that the dots are shooting over 60%. Now if you trade these dots with the trend you are doing much better than that. This is obvious, just sayin But I wonder if one needs to purchase the system when we can get the JeffDots/CCI stuff here at futures.io (formerly BMT) for free. I don't know, these might be better than the JeffDots/CCI. Please continue posting your charts...

Yes, anything with the trend does better. I just looked up breifly what JeffDots were and you're not going to get the same or even close entries let alone be told in advance when those turns should come in. Notice how I'm always getting in right on the pivots. JeffDots need a MA to cross. I just need exhaustion at Support and the right time.

I would never encourage anyone to buy anything. If you're any good at programming you could in fact do it yourself. johnthom's probably already got a few ideas brewing. I jut chimed in on the thread because there was false information being posted.

I'll keep posting trades.

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  #82 (permalink)
 Dragon 
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tradingonvolume View Post
you're not going to get the same or even close entries let alone be told in advance when those turns should come in

Do you just mean that the dots appear a few bars before a turning point?

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  #83 (permalink)
 tradingonvolume 
Providence, Rhode Island, USA
 
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Dragon View Post
Do you just mean that the dots appear a few bars before a turning point?

See how on my last chart in the top right corner it says Sell in 8 minutes, Buy in 37....just an example. That means historically the turn is going to come in 8 minutes so I can get in right at that turn rather than waiting for it to roll over and have the MA's cross.
Maybe I'll put the other part of the indicator up later. It gives you a better perspective and helps take your focus from a dot being a trigger. The dots aren't actually signals and aren't formed by a bunch of technicals lining up. They only mark where historically the turns came in or where momentum stopped. Have you ever been to one of the BTTFT webinars?

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 aslan 
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What are you using to generate your support and resistance lines?

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 Dragon 
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No I haven't been to one of the webinars. I will go take a look.

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 Dragon 
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Are the dots you posted the fractal pivot confluence indicator at the website? Because if that is the case then I can get those at the NT forum or here. I couldn't see a blown-up pic of the cycle indi because the link to their screencast account is disabled...

But you said that the dots fire when the timer goes off at the top. Do they have more than one dot indi?

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 tradingonvolume 
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Dragon View Post
Are the dots you posted the fractal pivot confluence indicator at the website? Because if that is the case then I can get those at the NT forum or here. I couldn't see a blown-up pic of the cycle indi because the link to their screencast account is disabled...

But you said that the dots fire when the timer goes off at the top. Do they have more than one dot indi?

No they're not the fractal pivot confluence. They're from the flux capacitor, their main indicator which doesn't show up in the area you're looking at on their site.
I'd recommend you attend one of their webinars to find out how their stuff works.

The dots don't always fire at the top. My S/R is what's usually at the top. I just need a dot coming up to let me know to take it at support.

The S/R are proprietary levels.

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 AR01 
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I do not own this product but they gave me a free trial in the room last year. The projected turning points are based on what has happened in the market over the past few weeks based on propriety algorithms. They know the turning points for today almost a week in advance. I did not have the software but they were showing the market data live and there were count downs to the turning points.

As tradingonvolume states you need a method with these turning points. They have a few methods to trade with the proprietary indicators. In the end I did not buy because I was not ready to pay the upfront cost to see if it would enhance my trading. But in the future.....who knows.

Andrew

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 AR01 
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tradingonvolume View Post

The S/R are proprietary levels.

Are the S/R from backtothefuture or from somewhere else?

Andrew

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 tradingonvolume 
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AR01 View Post
Are the S/R from backtothefuture or from somewhere else?

Andrew

They're my own. And you're right about how the flux is calculated. It's very simple which is why I like it.

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 BTTFT Michael 
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The calculations of the markers are that simple. There's a little more to it than that. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of waking up and someday finding out 2 years of your life's work is now cracked and free to the world. LOL.

Upgrading is a constant endeavor. There's so much about Institutional trading that reveals itself the deeper you study it and follow cycles. Any programmer following this trail would have a hard time not upgrading and enhancing what they saw and learned along the way.

I never used to believe this stuff was going on. I thought everything I was watching was random.

Support and resistance lines are another unexplored universe. Some traders are using floor pivots etc vs looking at the price support and resistance levels that have actually been established by the players. You can calculate those levels with the aid of a quad-core vs the pen and paper analysis that Gann had to use.

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 Dragon 
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Seriously something wrong here. How can you charge $2000 for products and not let potential buyers ask questions? I always do research before a major outlay like that.

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 Big Mike 
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 tonychan 
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tradingonvolume View Post
Yes, anything with the trend does better. I just looked up breifly what JeffDots were and you're not going to get the same or even close entries let alone be told in advance when those turns should come in. Notice how I'm always getting in right on the pivots. JeffDots need a MA to cross. I just need exhaustion at Support and the right time.

I would never encourage anyone to buy anything. If you're any good at programming you could in fact do it yourself. johnthom's probably already got a few ideas brewing. I jut chimed in on the thread because there was false information being posted.

I'll keep posting trades.


can you post the chart?

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 Big Mike 
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  #96 (permalink)
 Nimble 
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I own the indicator. I bought it because it is how I traded. Every night I went through charts of past weeks to match patterns. So when I saw the indicator I knew it could help me. It is not magic, it does not predict. It simply gather stats from the look back days against the indicator you choose (moving average, or their AMACD).

In trading, a few things things come into play, price, time, volume, money mgmt. if you can get all right you are golden. What flux gives me is the time aspect. So, you do not use it alone, use it with your other price based indicators that will confirm the turning point. Although they emphasize the direction, it is more effective using it for turning points rather than for the direction.

They claim 20 trading days look back days is useful (30 days on the indicator). I look at 5 trading days, 10 trading days and 20 trading days and give weight to 5. I trade legs when all the three coincide in a particular direction.

I have used it for over 9 months now on the ES only. And I can confirm that on the turning points is more than 70% correct for the ES during CASH hours. Michael also claims it is 70% accurate in general. I do not keep track on paper, I use it to gauge what time I should wake up everyday or what time I should come back to my desk All I know that if it is not right most of the time, I would not look at it every night

New buyers of the indicator will come up with ways to use that indicator. If the system is good, usually they share with the rest of the subscribers. Both Mike and Ron are honest and helpful people, but perhaps not the most experienced traders or best organized business. They keep statistics of the some systems they prescribe, but not all. They archive past video trainings, but slow.

Anyway, I thought I would offer a fair review of the product.

Nimble

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 Tallyho 
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Nimble- thx for your post.

I wondered how you found their Flux Capacitor support & training?? that's where I find the challenge/frustration with past trials at other companies.

Especially in the email support area where you do your best to type a clear email question and they read only part of it and give either an answer to a different question or end up telling u something trial/ obvious that obviously wasn't what you were asking for.

Thx

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 dandxg 
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I actually think Michael and his group are straight shooters. One thing that troubles me is they no longer do presentations during live market hours? Its always after the trading day these days. That and I always wonder why they can't do better than 70% accuracy with their advanced data mining.

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 aslan 
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dandxg View Post
advanced data mining

Thats marketing at its best. They look at 3 moving averages in a unique way to discern how price moved in relation to those averages in the past, and map that onto the future. The real secret sauce is making that happen in NT, as it does not map into NT very well.

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 Nimble 
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Tallyho View Post
Nimble- thx for your post.

I wondered how you found their Flux Capacitor support & training?? that's where I find the challenge/frustration with past trials at other companies.

Especially in the email support area where you do your best to type a clear email question and they read only part of it and give either an answer to a different question or end up telling u something trial/ obvious that obviously wasn't what you were asking for.

Thx

You will get enough help to get the software set up and installed. The daily trading room(free for customers) is there to provide help to how to use and read the indicators. The webinars (recorded) will provide interesting concepts and systems by other users. The user forum is not useful.

Ron will respond to questions about set up very quickly. You will have no problem with installation for sure

They will only teach you to trade the basic three systems (stop light, fm16, jurik) according to rules. Stop light is a counter trend system, not my style. Jurik is a scalp system, also not my style. FM 16 more my style (3 pts or more), but I find it not much difference than what I already use so I just kept using my stuff.

In other words, if you don't already have a system, you will find yourself getting little help on discovering the systems and make the indicator work for you . What they can help you with is steps to take to discover your system, and tools you can use to improve money management (mainly using Adaptrade's MSA).

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