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Have you heard about XYZ?


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Have you heard about XYZ?

  #1 (permalink)
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Trading: CL
 
Lornz's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198 since Apr 2010

Have you heard about XYZ?

I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!


Last edited by Lornz; June 24th, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
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  #3 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
 
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I have made your thread a sticky.

I agree with most everything you've said. However, there are a few (very few) vendors out there that do genuinely want to help others. And they are entitled to charge for their time and run a business. Everything below is strictly my personal opinion based on my own personal experiences in the world of trading. I am not speaking about any one particular vendor.

You can identify these "good" vendors if their website doesn't focus on how much money they made, doesn't focus on selling you indicators or a system, but instead emphasizes the importance of personal trading skill and education, risk and money management, psychology and discipline, etc. And bear in mind, these are the hardest things in the world of trading to conquer so finding the right vendor or mentor that has the experience and skill necessary is not an easy task.

Like your momma always said, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. Sites that just talk about how easy their indicators are to use, or how much money they made today, this week, or this month with their system, etc, are sites to be avoided.

I think this thread could serve as a template of how to identify a genuine vendor who deserves your business and who can teach you something.

Here is a short list to get us started. In my opinion, what you are looking for is a trading coach. Just like a personal trainer at the gym, a trading coach can help you one-on-one in the exact areas you need help. He can focus you, he can personalize your training, and he can hold you accountable. This is what you need. Not indicators. Not auto systems.
  • Focuses on teaching you a method with emphasis on proper risk and money management, trading psychology, and discipline.
  • Does not try to sell you an indicator package that they claim will make you money if you follow it.
  • Does not try to sell you an automated trading system that they claim will make you money if you follow it.
  • Clearly/visibly lists their phone number.
  • Call the phone number and verify you can speak to the owner of the company.
  • Clearly/visibly lists a physical address.
  • Use Google Maps and see what the address is. Do a Google search on the address and see if it's a virtual office space, or a real address. If virtual, question the owner about why he needs a virtual office space address.
  • Check to see how long ago the website was registered, sites like DomainTools | Whois Lookup, DNS Lookup, Reverse Whois Lookup can help.
  • They should have a money back/refund option that is clearly defined on the website. Don't let them tell you there is no refund option because of their special indicators or system. You don't want special indicators or a system.
  • They offer one-on-one coaching, unlimited time/questions for no additional cost.
  • Do a google search for their company name and read all the reviews you can find from sites like futures.io (formerly BMT). Any reviews made by any poster with less than 50 posts should be thrown in the trash, and I am speaking from direct experience - an overwhelming number of vendors register multiple accounts to promote their own products performance (btw, they get banned on futures.io (formerly BMT) when I catch them).

I hope others can add to the list.

BTW, if you want me to make recommendations - sorry. I have no recommendations to make on where you can go find the above service. Instead, my recommendation is to just forego the search for this type of help and instead focus on helping yourself. Can a personal trainer help you lose weight? Yes. But you also can lose weight on your own, without their help. Your best bet is to read the rest of the posts on futures.io (formerly BMT) and learn from the many great threads and thousands of posts on this site. And if you say that is too much to learn or read, then just give up trading now... it takes a lot more discipline and a lot more time than you apparently have

Hope this helps.

Mike

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  #4 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
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Let me add:

Good services like this won't come cheap. That is because time is valuable, and a good trader's time is most certainly no exception to that rule. But don't equate expensive vendors with quality education, they are most certainly not interchangeable.

That said, get everything in writing. Just have them send you an email recapping everything you are buying. This includes (in the email) their refund policy, pricing, etc. This way you have a copy of what you are agreeing to and there are no questions.

Last, I want to add that a coach like this isn't going to trade for you. I can't think of any people like this that would just call trades to you. That doesn't help anyone. No shortcuts, remember. So don't expect to piggyback trades. What you should expect is to get your questions answered, and to learn some trading techniques, discipline, and how to get the better of your trading psychology under control. Make sure the coach is holding you accountable. He should be reviewing your trades on a daily or semi-daily basis and providing you with feedback.

Mike

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  #5 (permalink)
Houston,Tx
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: TF
 
ThatManFromTexas's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,206 given, 4,322 received


Lornz View Post
I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

I agree with you on vendors selling something that will make you rich... but they don't use it themselves.

"... tis indeed an ill cook who will not lick her own fingers..." William Shakespear

I met a guy in the software business here in Texas that sold a software program to pick winning lottery numbers. The program was $10.99.

That said, I could see a real need for some one who would teach a "Welcome to Trading" course for people interested in learning to trade.

Things we all take for granted, roll over dates, contract specifications, even TickSize can be very confusing to new traders.

A course that covered ;

Introduction to the Markets & how they Operate

A. Equities

B. Futures

C. Options

D. Forex

E. Contract Specifications and Roll Over Dates

F. Exchanges

Charting and Trading Platforms

A. Indicators

B. Data Feeds

C. Brokers

Trading

A. Risk

B. Money Management

C. Introduction to Strategies

D. Day Trading, Swing Trading,Automated Trading

I believe there should be a requirement that all new traders have to pass such a course before they are allowed to trade real money.

Granted, it's not as sexy as a seminar that teaches you to get rich without any effort. But it could save a lot of busted accounts.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #6 (permalink)
San Diego, CA USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ES
 
GridKing's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,650 since May 2011
Thanks: 584 given, 879 received

My 2 cents

It's been my experience that anything worth learning about is usually widely available for free throughout the internet and blogs - the only services that I have found worth a set fee are those that provide information or access to a database - there are a few places that provide quality teaching IMO but the ones I have seen either provide a good portion of their services for free in order to try and test and see if it works for you or charge a set monthly fee because people tend to stick around - I haven't really tried anything with big up front money so I can't say for sure but my thought is that they wouldn't need to charge a large up front cost unless they knew you would only be there or use it once - Just my 2 cents

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  #7 (permalink)
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus, IB
Trading: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
monpere's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,327 received


Lornz View Post
I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

If those threads get on your nerves, I suggest you don't read them. But the people asking the question on those threads are genuinely looking for advice. I think it is our duty as seasoned traders, who have been out there, and experienced the great number of charlatans out there, it is our duty to spare the uninitiated from the waste of time and money, from all those who are seeking to take advantage of them. I wish someone had told me to stay away from the number of these guys who took advantage of me as a newbie trader.

Personally, I welcome those threads and I will give my experience and opinion on every one of those that I have first hand account of. If I can save the next guy from those who seek to take advantage of them, or recommend those who I think are worth the effort, I am more then glad to do it.

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  #8 (permalink)
Houston,Tx
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: TF
 
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Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,206 given, 4,322 received


GridKing View Post
It's been my experience that anything worth learning about is usually widely available for free throughout the internet and blogs ... - Just my 2 cents

That's true but it's like learning about sex from the other guys in school... granted you eventually... after a lot of fumbling and awkward moments figure it out... but you also get a lot of incorrect information you have to sort through...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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The following 2 users say Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
 
  #9 (permalink)
San Diego, CA USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ES
 
GridKing's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,650 since May 2011
Thanks: 584 given, 879 received

Probably


ThatManFromTexas View Post
That's true but it's like learning about sex from the other guys in school... granted you eventually... after a lot of fumbling and awkward moments figure it out... but you also get a lot of incorrect information you have to sort through...

But if you skip the guys and go straight to the girls it's definitely more fun and memorable, even if it takes longer

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The following 2 users say Thank You to GridKing for this post:
 
  #10 (permalink)
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MT4, StrategyRunner
Trading: ES,EUR/USD,Oil
 
TheSeeker's Avatar
 
Posts: 123 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 66 given, 68 received


I've learned quite a lot from the various courses and chat rooms in the past. Exchanging info on vendors and educational services on this board can only help,imho.

I believe that you can learn good setups from courses. This is not to be confused with becoming a profitable trader...the latter is really a matter of thousands of hours of screen time and experience.

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