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Have you heard about XYZ?


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Have you heard about XYZ?

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  #1 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
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I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

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  #3 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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I have made your thread a sticky.

I agree with most everything you've said. However, there are a few (very few) vendors out there that do genuinely want to help others. And they are entitled to charge for their time and run a business. Everything below is strictly my personal opinion based on my own personal experiences in the world of trading. I am not speaking about any one particular vendor.

You can identify these "good" vendors if their website doesn't focus on how much money they made, doesn't focus on selling you indicators or a system, but instead emphasizes the importance of personal trading skill and education, risk and money management, psychology and discipline, etc. And bear in mind, these are the hardest things in the world of trading to conquer so finding the right vendor or mentor that has the experience and skill necessary is not an easy task.

Like your momma always said, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. Sites that just talk about how easy their indicators are to use, or how much money they made today, this week, or this month with their system, etc, are sites to be avoided.

I think this thread could serve as a template of how to identify a genuine vendor who deserves your business and who can teach you something.

Here is a short list to get us started. In my opinion, what you are looking for is a trading coach. Just like a personal trainer at the gym, a trading coach can help you one-on-one in the exact areas you need help. He can focus you, he can personalize your training, and he can hold you accountable. This is what you need. Not indicators. Not auto systems.
  • Focuses on teaching you a method with emphasis on proper risk and money management, trading psychology, and discipline.
  • Does not try to sell you an indicator package that they claim will make you money if you follow it.
  • Does not try to sell you an automated trading system that they claim will make you money if you follow it.
  • Clearly/visibly lists their phone number.
  • Call the phone number and verify you can speak to the owner of the company.
  • Clearly/visibly lists a physical address.
  • Use Google Maps and see what the address is. Do a Google search on the address and see if it's a virtual office space, or a real address. If virtual, question the owner about why he needs a virtual office space address.
  • Check to see how long ago the website was registered, sites like DomainTools | Whois Lookup, DNS Lookup, Reverse Whois Lookup can help.
  • They should have a money back/refund option that is clearly defined on the website. Don't let them tell you there is no refund option because of their special indicators or system. You don't want special indicators or a system.
  • They offer one-on-one coaching, unlimited time/questions for no additional cost.
  • Do a google search for their company name and read all the reviews you can find from sites like futures.io (formerly BMT). Any reviews made by any poster with less than 50 posts should be thrown in the trash, and I am speaking from direct experience - an overwhelming number of vendors register multiple accounts to promote their own products performance (btw, they get banned on futures.io (formerly BMT) when I catch them).

I hope others can add to the list.

BTW, if you want me to make recommendations - sorry. I have no recommendations to make on where you can go find the above service. Instead, my recommendation is to just forego the search for this type of help and instead focus on helping yourself. Can a personal trainer help you lose weight? Yes. But you also can lose weight on your own, without their help. Your best bet is to read the rest of the posts on futures.io (formerly BMT) and learn from the many great threads and thousands of posts on this site. And if you say that is too much to learn or read, then just give up trading now... it takes a lot more discipline and a lot more time than you apparently have

Hope this helps.

Mike

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  #4 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Let me add:

Good services like this won't come cheap. That is because time is valuable, and a good trader's time is most certainly no exception to that rule. But don't equate expensive vendors with quality education, they are most certainly not interchangeable.

That said, get everything in writing. Just have them send you an email recapping everything you are buying. This includes (in the email) their refund policy, pricing, etc. This way you have a copy of what you are agreeing to and there are no questions.

Last, I want to add that a coach like this isn't going to trade for you. I can't think of any people like this that would just call trades to you. That doesn't help anyone. No shortcuts, remember. So don't expect to piggyback trades. What you should expect is to get your questions answered, and to learn some trading techniques, discipline, and how to get the better of your trading psychology under control. Make sure the coach is holding you accountable. He should be reviewing your trades on a daily or semi-daily basis and providing you with feedback.

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  #5 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
Houston,Tx
 
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Lornz View Post
I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

I agree with you on vendors selling something that will make you rich... but they don't use it themselves.

"... tis indeed an ill cook who will not lick her own fingers..." William Shakespear

I met a guy in the software business here in Texas that sold a software program to pick winning lottery numbers. The program was $10.99.

That said, I could see a real need for some one who would teach a "Welcome to Trading" course for people interested in learning to trade.

Things we all take for granted, roll over dates, contract specifications, even TickSize can be very confusing to new traders.

A course that covered ;

Introduction to the Markets & how they Operate

A. Equities

B. Futures

C. Options

D. Forex

E. Contract Specifications and Roll Over Dates

F. Exchanges

Charting and Trading Platforms

A. Indicators

B. Data Feeds

C. Brokers

Trading

A. Risk

B. Money Management

C. Introduction to Strategies

D. Day Trading, Swing Trading,Automated Trading

I believe there should be a requirement that all new traders have to pass such a course before they are allowed to trade real money.

Granted, it's not as sexy as a seminar that teaches you to get rich without any effort. But it could save a lot of busted accounts.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #6 (permalink)
 GridKing 
San Diego, CA USA
 
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It's been my experience that anything worth learning about is usually widely available for free throughout the internet and blogs - the only services that I have found worth a set fee are those that provide information or access to a database - there are a few places that provide quality teaching IMO but the ones I have seen either provide a good portion of their services for free in order to try and test and see if it works for you or charge a set monthly fee because people tend to stick around - I haven't really tried anything with big up front money so I can't say for sure but my thought is that they wouldn't need to charge a large up front cost unless they knew you would only be there or use it once - Just my 2 cents

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  #7 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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Lornz View Post
I hope I am not off topic, but after reading yet another hopeless thread about some vendor, I feel the need to let out some steam.

No one is going to sell you a system that will allow you to make a fortune in the market... They sell their "wisdom" because they can't make it themselves.

Of course, you could learn a lot of theory from a vendor. You could take a class on finance/economics, financial modelling, risk/money management, statistical analysis, probability theory etc... Things that will give you a foundation to develop your own method.

I will refrain from visiting this sub-forum again.

But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

If those threads get on your nerves, I suggest you don't read them. But the people asking the question on those threads are genuinely looking for advice. I think it is our duty as seasoned traders, who have been out there, and experienced the great number of charlatans out there, it is our duty to spare the uninitiated from the waste of time and money, from all those who are seeking to take advantage of them. I wish someone had told me to stay away from the number of these guys who took advantage of me as a newbie trader.

Personally, I welcome those threads and I will give my experience and opinion on every one of those that I have first hand account of. If I can save the next guy from those who seek to take advantage of them, or recommend those who I think are worth the effort, I am more then glad to do it.

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  #8 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
Houston,Tx
 
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GridKing View Post
It's been my experience that anything worth learning about is usually widely available for free throughout the internet and blogs ... - Just my 2 cents

That's true but it's like learning about sex from the other guys in school... granted you eventually... after a lot of fumbling and awkward moments figure it out... but you also get a lot of incorrect information you have to sort through...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #9 (permalink)
 GridKing 
San Diego, CA USA
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
That's true but it's like learning about sex from the other guys in school... granted you eventually... after a lot of fumbling and awkward moments figure it out... but you also get a lot of incorrect information you have to sort through...

But if you skip the guys and go straight to the girls it's definitely more fun and memorable, even if it takes longer

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  #10 (permalink)
 TheSeeker 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
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I've learned quite a lot from the various courses and chat rooms in the past. Exchanging info on vendors and educational services on this board can only help,imho.

I believe that you can learn good setups from courses. This is not to be confused with becoming a profitable trader...the latter is really a matter of thousands of hours of screen time and experience.

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  #11 (permalink)
 rtrade 
Paradise, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
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GridKing View Post
But if you skip the guys and go straight to the girls it's definitely more fun and memorable, even if it takes longer

Ya, I remember when I was a kid playing spin the bottle with the neighborhood kids, if it landed on a guy you would skip the guy and go straight to the girl.

But I don't think that's how it is with these kids these days...now I understand what my Daddy meant, "Ah, the good ol'days."

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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  #12 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
Coloado
 
Experience: Beginner
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Posts: 129 since Sep 2010


Lornz View Post
But, before I retire, I will urge the many beginning traders to actually do the work required, and not waste time and money on distractions...

Cheers!

I wish someone would have beat the above statement into my head with a two-by-four. In the beginning I was convinced that you could "earn while you learn" and that if I paid big $$$ surely I would be successful. Boy was I wrong........$30 K wrong.

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  #13 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
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Rayzor View Post
I wish someone would have beat the above statement into my head with a two-by-four. In the beginning I was convinced that you could "earn while you learn" and that if I paid big $$$ surely I would be successful. Boy was I wrong........$30 K wrong.

It's human nature. It's natural to want to travel the path of least resistance. As a new trader, who knows little about the market, you want to learn about this new concept. But, where to start? The natural tendency is to go to those who claim they have experience. But there are 100's of these guys out there touting their expertise at a substantial price. What's a newbie to do? Here's an idea, get on a trading forum and ask people's opinions! That is exactly the purpose of a forum. So, yes 'Have you heard of XYZ?', 'What do yo think about them'?, 'Are they worth my hard earned $2995'

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  #14 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
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Rayzor View Post
I wish someone would have beat the above statement into my head with a two-by-four. In the beginning I was convinced that you could "earn while you learn" and that if I paid big $$$ surely I would be successful. Boy was I wrong........$30 K wrong.

$30K? Ouch... But I am quite certain most on this board have been similarly naive, albeit with smaller amounts...

I started trading right after high school, thus I didn't even have that much to put into my trading account, much less spend on "education".

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  #15 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
Coloado
 
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monpere View Post
'Are they worth my hard earned $2995'

I am confident in saying "no".

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  #16 (permalink)
 Geeko 
Sarasota FL, USA
 
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TheSeeker View Post
I believe that you can learn good setups from courses. This is not to be confused with becoming a profitable trader...the latter is really a matter of thousands of hours of screen time and experience.

This has been my experience also. IMO a key element to succeed in this field is to find a framework that works for your tolerances and lifestyle. This doesn't come without considerable diligence in research, testing, analysis and commitment, part of that commitment is also to back yourself with a plan, executed in the market with real funds on the line. I've performed many many hours to simulation but that just doesn't cut it until you can monitor and analyse the results from live trading.

I've paid and attended many courses, bought a lot of systems and believe I've seen a pretty broad range of what's on offer out there and until I took components of what I'd seen, quantitively tested those for validity, integrated those that made the cut and developed my own system(s), then applied those to the market did it come together for me. Only then did I realize just how much work is really involved to make this work for me.

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  #17 (permalink)
 Rayzor 
Coloado
 
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TheSeeker View Post
I've learned quite a lot from the various courses and chat rooms in the past. Exchanging info on vendors and educational services on this board can only help,imho.

I believe that you can learn good setups from courses. This is not to be confused with becoming a profitable trader...the latter is really a matter of thousands of hours of screen time and experience.

Yes, but is that help worth $7500.00? I will have to agree Seeker, but I have paid quite a bit at times for those little nuggets of truth. In all honesty I have found that the best stuff I have learned has been from $50 e-books and free stuff I have found on this forum. I must confess, I always assumed (stupidly) that those programs and rooms would give me confidence; they did not.

I have also realized that I am like Scarface (the move): "who do I trust????? me!!!!! I find my losses are much more palatable when the mistake is mine rather than a bad room call.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Ironman9973 
New York
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradeNavigator
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Have sombebody heard of Brian Hoffman Trading? I saw his presentation on NinjaTrader, and I liked it. But his video course costs 1000 usd, and I am not sure about him.

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  #19 (permalink)
 BTTFT Michael 
East Bend
 
Experience: Advanced
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There are "markers" that I've identified similar to the list of cautions previously mentioned by Mike.

One of the things I hear most consistently from other traders is the "time" variable. Most of them report a 3-5 year learning curve before they entered into a break even + / profitable period of their careers. I don't know very many who opened an account and earned a living 6 months later. It's interesting to me that this falls in line with the "10,000 hour rule" you hear about with any type of proficiency.

I've also found that most vendors won't address losses and losing streaks. Beware the ones that use the word "compounding" in their presentations, ie, how quickly you can go from $10,000 to $100,000 in the account. It's the vendors that address things from the other direction that are worth their salt. I remember the first guy who spoke to me about Monte Carlo analyses, Average Draw Down, Max Draw Down, etc. My head nearly exploded. Then I read a book called "The Trading Game" by Ryan Jones where he unpacked 2 ideas that taught traders when to go from a live trading to a simulated trading account so as not to blow out an entire account. I call it his "Parachute" techniques. Vendors that don't tell you what to do/how to identify when to pull the "parachute" are usually worth avoiding.

Most vendors with an "arrow" indicator have almost never panned out for me. I've learned that in a room full of 10 people, with the same tools, there will be 10 different rule sets and personalities. It can be done, but authors like Richard Weissman point out that every trader has a "natural center of gravity" and is what their mother said all along, "very special". :-)

Even Gann noted this. He said once that lawyers and doctors had to go to school for substantial amounts of time before they could be considered lawyers and doctors - but people who have the physical means "money" assume themselves to be traders by the nature of their wealth. I believe that brokers have some culpability in this sense and should have as others have noted on this post a type of "driver's test" prior to trading live.

Just giving someone a simulated account and telling them to trade a simple system for 1 week (like a 5/20 SMA cross) regardless of results will tell you about a trader's readiness. If someone can't follow a simple 3 rule cross-entry-exit method (with nothing on the line) they're not ready to learn anything anyone has to teach.

Great posts here. I wish I'd read ones like these early on...

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  #20 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
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Ironman9973 View Post
Have sombebody heard of Brian Hoffman Trading? I saw his presentation on NinjaTrader, and I liked it. But his video course costs 1000 usd, and I am not sure about him.

my advice do not buy it..is it total b.s. ( no) does it have any real value (no) it may help you if you no nothing .. is it a waste of time..(yes) does he show any prof he can trade (no) do i think he can trade or know what he is doing ( no)

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  #21 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
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1. they lead you down the path that want they are selling will make you a trader or that is what is missing in your trading education. 2. they play a game only showing the uneducated cherry picked examples of there web of lies. 3. they also sell the uneducated trading software that will be dated in one or two years even if it does have any value,,like every one that had bought ninja 7.. stuff 50% will be not support in ninja 8 ...cost to much to upgrade by the developer 4 even if it has some value it is way over priced..5 ..in general very little support after they have your money.. 6 last put most important they know that going in.. i do agree with big Mike there are a few that all the above does not apply...but out of thousands you could count them on one hand. it is no wonder so many fail trading they are being trained by trading bandits.

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  #22 (permalink)
 Richh 
Seattle Wa usa
 
Experience: Intermediate
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has anybody used this software?

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  #23 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
desert CA
 
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forgiven View Post
1. they lead you down the path that want they are selling will make you a trader or that is what is missing in your trading education. 2. they play a game only showing the uneducated cherry picked examples of there web of lies. 3. they also sell the uneducated trading software that will be dated in one or two years even if it does have any value,,like every one that had bought ninja 7.. stuff 50% will be not support in ninja 8 ...cost to much to upgrade by the developer 4 even if it has some value it is way over priced..5 ..in general very little support after they have your money.. 6 last put most important they know that going in.. i do agree with big Mike there are a few that all the above does not apply...but out of thousands you could count them on one hand. it is no wonder so many fail trading they are being trained by trading bandits.

Pretty much true and agreed. Tradingschools.org helped confirm for me the deep back in the mind fears and suspicions of most of the scammy industry in the back of every aspiring trader's mind , now finally a site where the lies, sim tricks, and buck stops because the FBI and CFTC read and work with tradingschools to indict some of the more egregious violaters although I wish the rate of vindication would pick up even more. That said, I'm fine with ninja 7 where with the multi-user license I can trade via multiple brokers and feeds (also grandfathered with AMP) and don't need anymore new fancy indicators or I can modify/code my own. It's like having a 10+ year old car with old addon plugins like windshield attached old garmin gps, cassette player connected mp3 player interface, etc. that still works and looks good enough and hope to use for another 10 years.

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