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Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review)


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Anybody heard of topsteptrader (review)

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  #401 (permalink)
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josh View Post
Just to clarify, I thought I heard Michael say that in the live trader prep there was no profit objective. There is a profit objective, at least for everyone I've heard as well as myself. However, there is no time limit, and there are also additional parameters not included in the combine, as well as some parameters removed that are in the normal combine.

Sorry for any confusion. Just to clarify, funded traders have no profit targets to meet. The live trader preparation has a reduced profit target and no time limit.

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  #402 (permalink)
 aquarian1 
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cme4pif View Post
Hi;
1. Many firms that let you "trade with there Money" have little hidden strings, like it must be though there trading floor that has high "fees" commissions, desk fees, data feeds. A level 3 feed Bloomberg terminal is a very expensive way to draw a chart. Also in the fine print you may find that if you lose the money you owe it back. So that is not their money, unless you win, if you loose, it is suddenly "your loan" you are playing with . . .

- Safe Trading

@cme4pif
@josh
@Pedro40
@lancelottrader

------------------------
From TST website:
As a funded trader, am I responsible for my trading losses?
← Funded Trader Traders are not responsible for losses below the starting account balance. source:
As a funded trader, am I responsible for my trading losses? ? Help & Feedback Center
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So The FAQ rephrased without the word "not":
Funded Trader Traders are responsible for losses below the starting account balance.
As I understand this (the TST FAQ), if you were be "funded" with a 30K account, traded the account and had a loss bringing the account balance to $29K you owe then the $1,000 loss.

So you are not really funded at all it seems. They establish an account with a nominal value of $30K but with a 3 contract limit and a $500 maximum daily drawdown. As Josh mentioned, this is the same as a $2,000 loan for an account such Mirus with $500 ES intraday margin ($3*500 + $500 daily drawdown.).

So it's not really "their money their rules"
-it's "your money their rules".

If you lose $1,000 they contribute $0 and you pay $1,000
If you make $1,000 and they keep $400 and you get back $600


A $2,000 line of credit loan from a bank at 6.75% is $11.25 per month.
If you lose $1,000 you owe the bank as you would with TST
If you make $!,000 you keep $988.75

-----------------------
Perhaps I mis-understood the important point of their FAQ?

..........
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  #403 (permalink)
Pedro40
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aquarian1 View Post
So The FAQ rephrased without the word "not":

Nope, following your link it says:

"Traders are not responsible for losses below the starting account balance."

You misunderstood something. As a funded trader, you can only lose what you have made in profits. Once you were withdrawing money from the account and getting checks, you can't lose that money, only profits in the account.

TST has a risk when you start out and that is the max. DD. That much they can lose on you, but not you personally...

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 aquarian1 
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Thanks Pedro.

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  #405 (permalink)
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Pedro40 View Post
Nope, following your link it says:

"Traders are not responsible for losses below the starting account balance."

You misunderstood something. As a funded trader, you can only lose what you have made in profits. Once you were withdrawing money from the account and getting checks, you can't lose that money, only profits in the account.

TST has a risk when you start out and that is the max. DD. That much they can lose on you, but not you personally...

Spot on Pedro. Thanks for help. Traders are NEVER asked to contribute trading capital to the trading account or reimburse the equity partner for their trading losses.

To take the above a step further, if you do go live and then do hit the max drawdown, you will be sent back to the Combine. You will receive two complimentary Combines. When you make it back to the funded account (typically those that get sent down to the Combine get back live within 2 Combines) you do NOT have to make up the losses from your prior live trading performance. You start with a clean slate and a new shot at building your account.

Hope that helps. Good questions and good help Pedro.

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 Big Mike 
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Just a quick note:

TopstepTrader has been added to the Elite Partner Offers page. TST is giving a 20% discount on combine's for futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members (new recruits only, limit 1).



You can find the page here:
https://futures.io/elite_membership/

Note: Big Mike Trading does NOT receive compensation for these referrals, we simply worked out these special deals to help our Elite Members who have chosen to support the site. Even though we believe these are great products and services, you should always do your own research before doing business with a company.

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 Big Mike 
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Tip


There will be a Live AMA session on Thursday, July 25th @ 12:00 PM ET.

- Quick and casual, 30 minute cap
- No prepared presentation
- Live screen sharing
- Floor will be opened immediately to questions
- Recording uploaded to AMA thread afterwards
- Attend live to get your questions answered

The link for the event is:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/282447510




Link to the main AMA thread:



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  #408 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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Combine changes as of Aug 28th: Updated Combine Rules ? Help & Feedback Center

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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Just a few comments regarding the new rule changes:

Make sure you do the maths behind every rule change. Don't just take emails like this at face value thinking it 'sounds good' or makes things easier.

Case in point, one of the new rule changes is to implement the minimum balance clause detailed here

In summary, your maximum drawdown trails your maximum end of day account balance until such time as you've reached your maximum drawdown in profits. Only then do you start building more of a cushion. eg:

In a 50k combine your maximum drawdown is $2000. Under the current rules if you were to end day 1 of trading up $1000 your balance would be $51 000. You then have a 'cushion' of $3000 until you reach your max drawdown. ie: $51 000 - $3000 = $48 000

Under the proposed rules, in the same combine after being up $1000 at the end of a day your balance would still be $51000. BUT,..your minimum now trails your max balance and remains at the original $2000. Meaning that your new maximum drawdown is now $51000 - $2000 = $49000. This continues until such time as you've made more than your max drawdown in profits.

What this results in, is essentially instead of being able to build a 'cushion' straight away by moving away from your max drawdown. You actually remain extremely close to your max drawdown until you've made that amount in profits. Only then do you start building a cushion.

Another recent example of where most traders seemed to take rule changes at face value instead of doing the maths behind it was the change from a 'minimum number of days' format to a discreet format, eg:

Using a 50k 20day combine as an example, under the previous rules you had to trade a minimum of 20 trading days in a 60 calendar day period. In 60 trading days there are typically +-42 trading days. The profit target was $5000. So you had 42 trading days to make $5000. An average of 5000 / 42 = $119 per day.

Under the current rules since the change to a discreet format, you only get 20 trading days in a 60 calendar day period (ie: not a minimum of 20 trading days, but a discreet amount). Using the same 50k 20 day combine example, the profit is now $3500. Most traders seemed to think this was great because they took it at face value. Do the maths. An average of $3500 / 20 days = $175 per day is now required.

Both the prior rule change and this one are making the combine incrementally more difficult (and in my opinion more removed from simulating a live trading environment. The rules should better simulate live trading which was the case a few months ago - but that's another discussion). Do the maths on all rule changes.

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 Big Mike 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Just a few comments regarding the new rule changes:

Thx DPT. Looking forward to a discussion with Michael.

Mike

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  #411 (permalink)
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Guys I am here for any questions.

Darkpool to answer your question. Doing the math or not we are looking for traders to produce. The Combine allows us to find those traders. It also allows those to develop who are not able to "naturally" meet the profit target. You should never force it. If you are forcing it you are not focusing on your trading. You are focusing on the profit target which is only PART of the objective. The Combine Objective is to "Follow the Rules" (which are basics fundamental rules that traders should have in their trading plan) and meet or exceed the profit target. If you didn't hit the profit you but met the rules you are rolling over or moving on in your life at no cost. Traders develop by being in the market this is helping them develop.

We could pick apart every little detail and miss the fact that this opportunity is to help us find traders and help others create, test, and prove their trading strategy, without risking REAL trading capital. That is our offer. There is incredible talent out there that does not have the chance to develop properly or showcase themselves in front of anyone that is able to help them move them forward. We are a solution and an available option for these traders.

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 Chrismind 
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Darkpool,
That wasn't quite the answer I had hoped for either. Anyways, they giveth and they taketh. Some of the new rules make it easier, some more difficult.

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 Big Mike 
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Chrismind View Post
Darkpool,
That wasn't quite the answer I had hoped for either. Anyways, they giveth and they taketh. Some of the new rules make it easier, some more difficult.

I think it is fair to mention that I've worked with a bunch of trading related companies over the past 4 years on futures.io (formerly BMT), and TST is actually one of the most accommodating and receptive ones I can think of.

I do not agree with all of their decisions, nor do I have approval or voting rights over how they run their business. But I think I have a good business relationship with all the guys over there, and I do candidly share my thoughts with them from time to time, even when they don't ask

Bottom line, I think so long as you are professional with them about any concerns you have and you propose alternatives to issues you view as hindrances, they will usually listen and try to accommodate you.

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  #414 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I think it is fair to mention that I've worked with a bunch of trading related companies over the past 4 years on futures.io (formerly BMT), and TST is actually one of the most accommodating and receptive ones I can think of.

I do not agree with all of their decisions, nor do I have approval or voting rights over how they run their business. But I think I have a good business relationship with all the guys over there, and I do candidly share my thoughts with them from time to time, even when they don't ask

Bottom line, I think so long as you are professional with them about any concerns you have and you propose alternatives to issues you view as hindrances, they will usually listen and try to accommodate you.

Mike

Thanks Mike.

As stated we typically will accommodate and work with those that feel the standard Combine Rules do not fit their style by asking them to submit a Custom Combine proposal. All traders have the option to call and propose alternate rules or profit targets with a member of our team. This is our Custom Combine option. If interested please call our main line to discuss further. 312.252.9490.

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  #415 (permalink)
 Chrismind 
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Big Mike View Post
I think it is fair to mention that I've worked with a bunch of trading related companies over the past 4 years on futures.io (formerly BMT), and TST is actually one of the most accommodating and receptive ones I can think of.

I do not agree with all of their decisions, nor do I have approval or voting rights over how they run their business. But I think I have a good business relationship with all the guys over there, and I do candidly share my thoughts with them from time to time, even when they don't ask

Bottom line, I think so long as you are professional with them about any concerns you have and you propose alternatives to issues you view as hindrances, they will usually listen and try to accommodate you.

Mike

Just to be clear, I wasn't questioning the company or people. I was just anticipating an answer with the same detail that was in the darkpool's post, since this was an AMA type thread. No biggie. Looking back at DP's post, he didn't actually ask a question, so I shouldn't have waited for an answer LOL. And they still have a custom combine, as was just mentioned. I actually like the new combine requirements. It suits my style of trading more than the current rules.

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 aircal 
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Now if they could just get their Ninja s*** together - I have been hearing Real Soon Now for about it year, it reminds me of waiting for NT7...

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  #417 (permalink)
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For anyone that needs a bit more clarity on the changes regarding Minimum Account Balance here is a graph and a link to the description: (as you will notice when trading as a funded trader the further away you get from your initial balance the greater negotiating powers you will have for increasing your size and daily loss limit, as well as the opportunity to trade other products and/or markets)



Minimum Balance Defined ? Help & Feedback Center

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 Big Mike 
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TopstepTrader will be doing a combination webinar+AMA on Tuesday, November 5th @ 4:30 PM Eastern.

More info here:


Mike

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 Chrismind 
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NinjaTrader is now supported by TsT. Yes, you heard right. Enjoy

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Bharatiya
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Any updates regarding TopStepTrader.

Has anybody able to get any withdrawl / cheque or seen anyone got any??
Just wanted to know if traders complete all the matrix does patak keep their side of promise . I know its an old topic but they have been into this from last 3+ years there must be some feedback by now from their current/old traders.

Thanks

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 tderrick 
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Bharatiya View Post
Any updates regarding TopStepTrader.

Has anybody able to get any withdrawl / cheque or seen anyone got any??
Just wanted to know if traders complete all the matrix does patak keep their side of promise . I know its an old topic but they have been into this from last 3+ years there must be some feedback by now from their current/old traders.

Thanks


Me and my trading buddies have discussed this very topic many times. The general consensus is negative, but
I am trying to keep an open mind


AJ
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  #422 (permalink)
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Bharatiya View Post
Any updates regarding TopStepTrader.

Has anybody able to get any withdrawl / cheque or seen anyone got any??
Just wanted to know if traders complete all the matrix does patak keep their side of promise . I know its an old topic but they have been into this from last 3+ years there must be some feedback by now from their current/old traders.

Thanks

Bharatiya- Our equity partner has received many check requests from traders we place with them and each trader has received their check or if overseas a wire.

We really have nothing to hide. Traders come to TopstepTrader. Those that meet the objective in the Trading Combine get an opportunity to trade on our equity partners funded account. Those that profit enough to move themselves to Senior level are then permitted to start requesting a withdraw from their account. Those that request a withdraw get their cut of the profits.

Everything TopstepTrader offers is listed on our site. We don't have fine print. We are an educational and recruiting firm that feeds those talented traders in our Trading Combine to our partnering Proprietary Trading Groups.

Hope that helps.

mp

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  #423 (permalink)
Bharatiya
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MP I am not questioning the legitimacy of the firm. Its the long and tedious process to get senior trader status.
First multiple combines than live trading preparation than interview , junior trader... it might take some time .
I just wanted to know the traders who made it what is their experience with the firm. Is it worth ????

I am not talking about hard numbers not even general reviews like about trading environment, support, getting my checks on time.......

I always seen support staff or yours side, never patak/topdstep traders reviews. Thats why I put the question to the futures.io (formerly BMT) members.

Thanks

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 Big Mike 
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Bharatiya View Post
I always seen support staff or yours side, never patak/topdstep traders reviews. Thats why I put the question to the futures.io (formerly BMT) members.

Thanks

Search for TST. There are a ton of threads where people journal their experience with the combine. Tons and tons. Many are in Elite section, and you are not Elite, so keep that in mind.



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 Daytrader999 
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Bharatiya View Post
MP I am not questioning the legitimacy of the firm. Its the long and tedious process to get senior trader status.
First multiple combines than live trading preparation than interview , junior trader... it might take some time .
I just wanted to know the traders who made it what is their experience with the firm. Is it worth ????

I am not talking about hard numbers not even general reviews like about trading environment, support, getting my checks on time.......

I always seen support staff or yours side, never patak/topdstep traders reviews. Thats why I put the question to the futures.io (formerly BMT) members.

Thanks

Well, although I'm still far away of being a funded trader, I just want to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

ATM I'm in my second Combine and all I can say is that TST support is awesome, they are going to help you with ANY questions and concerns you might have...so really nothing wrong or 'suspicious' with that.

If you successfully pass a Combine you won't necessarily have to go through the process of Live Trader Preparation, this depends on how the Scouting Team 'judges' your trading and might be fairly discussed with them as well.

And lastly, I think before anybody should even think about of how / how much or how often withdrawing some money out of his account or bothering with how and when to become Senior trader status, IMO it's mandatory to build some sort of 'cushion' in order to earn the 'right' (or 'status' if you like) of changing / negotiating any given parameters relating to the just funded account...so YES, it definitely takes time to accomplish all necessary requirements, but it's still worth to give it a shot, just because besides all that monetary stuff, you'll learn a lot more about yourself than you ever might thought of.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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MP I am not questioning the legitimacy of the firm. Its the long and tedious process to get senior trader status.
First multiple combines than live trading preparation than interview , junior trader... it might take some time .
I just wanted to know the traders who made it what is their experience with the firm. Is it worth ????

I am not talking about hard numbers not even general reviews like about trading environment, support, getting my checks on time.......

I always seen support staff or yours side, never patak/topdstep traders reviews. Thats why I put the question to the futures.io (formerly BMT) members.

Thanks

Bharatiya- Ok, I understand. To add a comment or two about the process and the time it takes. This is different for each trader as trading is a personal journey for everyone. Some have taken one Combine and went funded, some multiple and funded and some never make it funded. This is very similar to all those traders who open their own brokerage account with their personal capital. Some trade well and never look back, some flounder, being up one day, down the next until their account gets chewed away with commission and some straight bury their account.

Our goal when becoming a Chicago Fintech startup was to change the way people approach the financial markets. We have developed a platform that, without risking your trading capital, allows anyone interested in the market to learn, gain market experience trading a real-time simulated account with real risk parameters and earn an opportunity to trade real capital from anywhere in the world.

I welcome your questions and am sorry for any confusion from my prior reply.

Have a good weekend.

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Pete @DionysusToast

Rumor has it you recently visited TST in Chicago. And met their horse? I'm confused...

Mike

lol - Cassius is a huge dog - he looks much smaller in these pics than he does in real life... mind you I am vertically challenged myself.

Lovely dog - great temperament - just damn huge...



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 Daytrader999 
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Just received this Email from TST today, I think this isn't going to make things easier for a new (TST) trader:



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 PandaWarrior 
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Daytrader999 View Post
Just received this Email from TST today, I think this isn't going to make things easier for a new (TST) trader:


Attachment 147297

Yeah, the ten day is not the optimum option to be sure.

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 Daytrader999 
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PandaWarrior View Post
Yeah, the ten day is not the optimum option to be sure.

Yep, IMO it's not only the profit objective which is harder to accomplish (because you need to make more profit on average each day) but it will also reduce your options and put more pressure on you if you're forced to trade only a small timeframe of the day (perhaps because of having a regular day job) as well.

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 Scalpingtrader 
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Yeah, the ten day is not the optimum option to be sure.

tbh I don't see a sound reasoning behind it - for my understanding every more or less experienced trader would go for the 20 day as it considerably smoothes the role that luck plays in the equation and furthermore reduces the return you have to achieve by 50% - on a relative per day / per trade basis.

So imo the only reasonable measure would've been to cancel the 10 day version or to take the golden middle and have all combines at 15 trading days at least..

My 2centd

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Yep, IMO it's not only the profit objective which is harder to accomplish (because you need to make more profit on average each day) but it will also reduce your options and put more pressure on you if you're forced to trade only a small timeframe of the day (perhaps because of having a regular day job) as well.

To me, if you are in the CST or earlier time zones, it will get pretty dicey if you have a 9-5 job. For those of us in the PST or later time zones, no worries. You can trade in the AM and still make your day job if you have one.

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 Daytrader999 
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Scalpingtrader View Post
tbh I don't see a sound reasoning behind it - for my understanding every more or less experienced trader would go for the 20 day as it considerably smoothes the role that luck plays in the equation and furthermore reduces the return you have to achieve by 50% - on a relative per day / per trade basis.

I agree, maybe they will adjust the profit objective accordingly...but I'm sure that MP will shed some light on why TST decided to proceed that way...

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 Daytrader999 
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PandaWarrior View Post
To me, if you are in the CST or earlier time zones, it will get pretty dicey if you have a 9-5 job. For those of us in the PST or later time zones, no worries. You can trade in the AM and still make your day job if you have one.

I agree as well, but for me who lives in European time zone there's always only about 2.5 hours of the US afternoon session for the indices and only 1 hour of the Crude Oil pit session left...

So I'm lucky because I already took 2 Combines, so I'm still going to have the 20 Day option at least for me...

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 PandaWarrior 
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All this being said, you can still pass the combine scalping with a few contracts if you do the $50K one. I prefer the 30K for many reasons but even then, you can do two lots and scalp a 8-10 ticks every day and make the profit objective.

The problem is the same as always, sticking to your trading model, maintaining discipline and not over trading. If the parameters are more difficult, the trader must adapt. Its no different than adapting to changing market conditions. You just have to figure out how you will approach the new conditions and work that plan. At least with TST, they tell you the conditions are changing before they actually do. The market has no such mercy

To for instance, there was about 20-30 ticks available in the last hour or so of the trading session. It was slow to be sure but available.

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 Scalpingtrader 
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Daytrader999 View Post
I agree, maybe they will adjust the profit objective accordingly...but I'm sure that MP will shed some light on why TST decided to proceed that way...

fwiw it doesnt even make sense from Pataks point of view - the risk of actually getting lucky and "cheating" ones way into a funded account is WAY higher within a 10 day period. If the combines for their initial purpose really are meant to be a recruiting tool, this doesnt quite match in my mind...

anyhow, their game, their rules (by which I most probably wouldnt start a combine - lucky me I started a 20 day this month already )

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 Daytrader999 
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PandaWarrior View Post
All this being said, you can still pass the combine scalping with a few contracts if you do the $50K one. I prefer the 30K for many reasons but even then, you can do two lots and scalp a 8-10 ticks every day and make the profit objective.

The problem is the same as always, sticking to your trading model, maintaining discipline and not over trading. If the parameters are more difficult, the trader must adapt. Its no different than adapting to changing market conditions. You just have to figure out how you will approach the new conditions and work that plan.

To for instance, there was about 20-30 ticks available in the last hour or so of the trading session. It was slow to be sure but available.

Agreed, although the market (NQ) tended to behave like watching paint dry during the last days in the afternoon sessions.


Quoting 
At least with TST, they tell you the conditions are changing before they actually do. The market has no such mercy

So true...

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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Just received this Email from TST today, I think this isn't going to make things easier for a new (TST) trader:


Attachment 147297

Daytrader999- You are quick on the draw.

The email does indicate current and past Traders are grandfathered.

As for your comments on new users. As you may be aware of being on our email list, most, if not all of those that get funded come from the 10 day Trading Combine. Most traders choose this Combine as it can be completed within a month. Being able to review your performance each month allows a trader to locate problem areas or bad habits and use the next month to focus on breaking that bad habit (it usually takes about a months to break a habit if you are focused each day on getting better - I recommend the book the Power of Habit). Which I believe Linda Raschke spoke about here on futures.io (formerly BMT).

The 10 day Combine also puts those that have a solid foundation and a sound strategy in a position they can start trading with a Funded Account right away.

Lastly, traders can and always will be able to contact us to customize a Trading Combine which will allow them to have 20 or more trading days. Customizing allows us to work with anyone to find the account parameters, duration and objective that best fits with their trading to ensure everyone has an equal opportunity for success.

Also, be watching your email later this week as we are excited to announce lower profit targets for a few of our Trading Combine accounts.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

mp

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Agreed, although the market (NQ) tended to behave like watching paint dry during the last days in the afternoon sessions.

I meant CL but it was also very slow.....

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 Daytrader999 
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TopstepTrader View Post
The email does indicate current and past Traders are grandfathered.

Yep, I mentioned that this wouldn't apply for me.


Quoting 
As for your comments on new users. As you may be aware of being on our email list, most, if not all of those that get funded come from the 10 day Trading Combine. Most traders choose this Combine as it can be completed within a month.

Anyway, the time issue as described above will remain, respectively increase if there would be no option to negotiate another rule regarding the trading days (which I didn't know as of now).


Quoting 
Also, be watching your email later this week as we are excited to announce lower profit targets for a few of our Trading Combine accounts.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

mp

That sounds interesting, thanks for clarifying...

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 Daytrader999 
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PandaWarrior View Post
I meant CL but it was also very slow.....

...Even slower (if possible at all) in the evenings, even around pit close...

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Daytrader999 View Post
Yep, I mentioned that this wouldn't apply for me.



Anyway, the time issue as described above will remain, respectively increase if there would be no option to negotiate another rule regarding the trading days (which I didn't know as of now).



That sounds interesting, thanks for clarifying...

Daytrader999- Anytime. Let me know if you have any other questions.

As a side note: We have some cool stuff coming out in June, not Trading Combine related. Think more community, fun, competition related.

Trade well,

mp

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 aircal 
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Good Thing - Ninja now available

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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TopstepTrader View Post
Also, be watching your email later this week as we are excited to announce lower profit targets for a few of our Trading Combine accounts.

Looking forward to hearing the details of this. From doing the maths behind each combine in terms of required average daily profit and risk:reward in relation to allowed position sizing, the 30k combine is the clear winner.

The problem comes when you move to LTP and live status, you're generally only allowed to trade 1 contract. This wreaks havoc on your trading if you've specifically designed the way you trade to incorporate scaling out. You've built your whole methodology around scaling out, risk:reward etc. Then you pass the combine and the maths behind your methodology no longer works because you cant scale out. No problem if you're methodology doesn't require scaling out as part of your risk:reward calcs, but if they do then you're in trouble.

It would therefore be great to have the other combines more in line with the 30k just purely from a profit objective and risk:reward in relation to position size perspective. At least then you'll know if you pass a combine based on a scale out strategy, you will at least be able to trade a 2 lot and not need to change anything in ltp/live. Will keep an eye out for more details.

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 fourtiwinks 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
...The problem comes when you move to LTP and live status, you're generally only allowed to trade 1 contract. This wreaks havoc on your trading if you've specifically designed the way you trade to incorporate scaling out. You've built your whole methodology around scaling out, risk:reward etc. Then you pass the combine and the maths behind your methodology no longer works because you cant scale out. No problem if you're methodology doesn't require scaling out as part of your risk:reward calcs, but if they do then you're in trouble...

Thanks @DarkPoolTrading, I wasn't aware that we can only trade 1 contract when we qualify to LTP and live status.

What a shame that TST does not publish this information. Hope they'll provide some flexibility for newer combines.

I'm on my third Combine and things are improving for me, but only because I'm relying on the scaling out method.

A bit disappointed to know that it may not be allowed in the LTP and live status..

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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fourtiwinks View Post
Thanks @DarkPoolTrading, I wasn't aware that we can only trade 1 contract when we qualify to LTP and live status.

What a shame that TST does not publish this information. Hope they'll provide some flexibility for newer combines.

I'm on my third Combine and things are improving for me, but only because I'm relying on the scaling out method.

A bit disappointed to know that it may not be allowed in the LTP and live status..

Hi @fourtiwinks,

Let me just clarify before I get in trouble. Firstly, from my understanding most things are negotiable with TsT. However, one resounding theme of those that go to ltp and live are that they have to cut their position size. This is not a bad thing. It's so you learn to build up the account slowly and dont blow out in a few days. Fair enough.

If you're trading a large combine, then you may be required to reduce your position size down to 2 or 3 contracts to start. Then you can add more as you grow the account. However when it comes to the 30k combine because you can only trade 3 contracts anyway, reducing your position size means going to a 1 lot. So far i've only heard of 1 person who was allowed to trade more than a 1 lot after passing the 30k.

So with that in mind, I personally find the 50k very appealing because you might only be required to reduce your position size down to a 2 lot, so you can continue scaling out. However the maths with the 50k in relation to the 30k are not as good in terms of risk:reward and profit objective in relation to position size.

Just thought id add that, in case you thought I was talking about all the combines. Im specifically talking about the 30k, and that the VAST majority (but not all) are made to trade a 1 lot after passing which completely screws with those who rely on scaling out. If they change the requirements of the 50k, Ill certainly be looking at it as an option.

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 fourtiwinks 
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Thanks again @DarkPoolTrading, I'm actually focusing on the 30k Combines for my trading.

No point in going for bigger Combines when they only allow 30k Combine criteria for LTP and live status.

I'm ok with TST wanting people to reduce position size during LTP and live status, as it is prudent policy.

But it is a shame that this is not revealed until after one qualifies the Combine.

Still, TST Combines are very useful in helping struggling traders like me to develop discipline and a sense of responsibility and I appreciate that.

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 bobwest 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Hi @fourtiwinks,

Let me just clarify before I get in trouble. Firstly, from my understanding most things are negotiable with TsT. However, one resounding theme of those that go to ltp and live are that they have to cut their position size.

So far i've only heard of 1 person who was allowed to trade more than a 1 lot after passing the 30k.


fourtiwinks View Post
I'm ok with TST wanting people to reduce position size during LTP and live status, as it is prudent policy.

But it is a shame that this is not revealed until after one qualifies the Combine.

I guess we're going to have to wait for @TopstepTrader to weigh in on this, but until Michael sees this, I just went over to their web site, and according to it, if you passed a 30K Combine, your max position size as a Junior Trader is still 3 contracts:

https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/learnmore

Perhaps they modify that for individual traders, and perhaps it's different for LTP, but I always understood that you could trade on the same basis as the Combine you passed.

I could certainly be wrong, and it sounds like @DarkPoolTrading has familiarity with actual people's experience. Thanks for bringing this up.

I hope MP will step in and clarify the policy and the practice.

Bob.

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 jsengxx2 
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I have heard that they tighten the rules in the LTP buy this I mean you have to go to BE after an x amount of ticks in profit etc and I think that this behavior can influence your trading negatively.
It is like topstep is after your initial deposit and not looking for trading talent.

Maybe topstep can post the trading rules in the LTP here and please do not come with the answer that the rules are different for traders with regards to the outcome of the combine!

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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Hi @fourtiwinks,

Let me just clarify before I get in trouble. Firstly, from my understanding most things are negotiable with TsT. However, one resounding theme of those that go to ltp and live are that they have to cut their position size. This is not a bad thing. It's so you learn to build up the account slowly and dont blow out in a few days. Fair enough.

If you're trading a large combine, then you may be required to reduce your position size down to 2 or 3 contracts to start. Then you can add more as you grow the account. However when it comes to the 30k combine because you can only trade 3 contracts anyway, reducing your position size means going to a 1 lot. So far i've only heard of 1 person who was allowed to trade more than a 1 lot after passing the 30k.

So with that in mind, I personally find the 50k very appealing because you might only be required to reduce your position size down to a 2 lot, so you can continue scaling out. However the maths with the 50k in relation to the 30k are not as good in terms of risk:reward and profit objective in relation to position size.

Just thought id add that, in case you thought I was talking about all the combines. Im specifically talking about the 30k, and that the VAST majority (but not all) are made to trade a 1 lot after passing which completely screws with those who rely on scaling out. If they change the requirements of the 50k, Ill certainly be looking at it as an option.

Darkpool- Thanks for clarifying. This is a case by case situation when a trader starts with a funded account. Some start with the exact buying power of their successful Trading Combine and some we discuss dialing it back until Senior level.

All in all, our goal when a trader is on a funded account as is the goal of the trader, and the equity partner is to build the account and be profitable. We will do what we can to put traders in the best position as our interest is aligned for real trading success. Our Funded Trader are performing better than they ever have and all parties involved are very happy with where things are at.

mp

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I have heard that they tighten the rules in the LTP buy this I mean you have to go to BE after an x amount of ticks in profit etc and I think that this behavior can influence your trading negatively.
It is like topstep is after your initial deposit and not looking for trading talent.

Maybe topstep can post the trading rules in the LTP here and please do not come with the answer that the rules are different for traders with regards to the outcome of the combine!

jsengxx2- Here is a link to our help section that has everything you need to know about Live Trader Preparation.

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Let me know if anything is unclear or if you have any questions.

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All,

I want to give you all an early announcement that we are lowering the profit targets as listed in the email/image below that will be going out to those in the TopsepTrader community tomorrow morning.

I am very excited about this for a couple reasons, first I am a trader and feel these are very achievable with discipline, patience and a good trading plan. Second, with the exceptional performance this year from our Funded Traders we are able to get more approved by our Equity Partner.

Contact support@topsteptrader.com or 888.407.1611 with any questions as I will be out of the country for the next three days and unavailable to respond on this forum. (A friends wedding in Mexico that I have been looking forward to for quite awhile.)

Have a great holiday weekend.

Trade well and always trade for tomorrow.

mp



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  #454 (permalink)
 dom64 
London, UK
 
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I started a combine back in March to see what it would be like to trade with outside rules. I have bee trading for years, with an overall win rate of above 80%, trading at times when it seems fit to trade , depending on the context, as opposed to having specific trading times etc.

I went for a modest 50K combine. It was initially connected on the wrong platform, so I asked for it to be changed, which it was. I then realised after a few days that it had been set on the wrong number of days (10 instead of the requested 20). A new account/combine from scratch was created with the correct number of days, and I was told to forget about the 1st one, which I did. Several days after into trading, I noticed something strange and contacted support. It turns out they had kept the initial account after all, and had not connected the new one, altough I was told to trade on the new created one and forget about the initial one. So a 3rd combine was started (slightly annoying, but given I trade consistently no big deal). I kept a trade open outside of trading hours, and my new combine is therefore not going to be looked at.

Right. I understand then pint of having rules. My first point would be that if you expect rigour from Traders, you might want to be rigorous yourself, which,based on that experience, is not the case. I understand that one of the rules is "not to trade out of permitted hours". I sometimes keep open position overnight, IF there is a good reason for it. Unfortunately the market does not care too much about "trading hours". Anyway,this is the rules. If would be a good idea to display those hours very clearly in the same place where other main rules are displayed, because altough it can be found somewhere and it says "to trade p only during permitted hours", it would be great to display those hours clearly somewhere. It might be obvious to someone in the same time zone, I don't know, but it is not to everyone else, at least it was not to me.

The same applies to support. It is very friendly, but I had to wait 2 days in several occasions to get an answer, not to mention the various confusion and mistakes.

This is my review based on experience.

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dom64 View Post
I started a combine back in March to see what it would be like to trade with outside rules. I have bee trading for years, with an overall win rate of above 80%, trading at times when it seems fit to trade , depending on the context, as opposed to having specific trading times etc.

I went for a modest 50K combine. It was initially connected on the wrong platform, so I asked for it to be changed, which it was. I then realised after a few days that it had been set on the wrong number of days (10 instead of the requested 20). A new account/combine from scratch was created with the correct number of days, and I was told to forget about the 1st one, which I did. Several days after into trading, I noticed something strange and contacted support. It turns out they had kept the initial account after all, and had not connected the new one, altough I was told to trade on the new created one and forget about the initial one. So a 3rd combine was started (slightly annoying, but given I trade consistently no big deal). I kept a trade open outside of trading hours, and my new combine is therefore not going to be looked at.

Right. I understand then pint of having rules. My first point would be that if you expect rigour from Traders, you might want to be rigorous yourself, which,based on that experience, is not the case. I understand that one of the rules is "not to trade out of permitted hours". I sometimes keep open position overnight, IF there is a good reason for it. Unfortunately the market does not care too much about "trading hours". Anyway,this is the rules. If would be a good idea to display those hours very clearly in the same place where other main rules are displayed, because altough it can be found somewhere and it says "to trade p only during permitted hours", it would be great to display those hours clearly somewhere. It might be obvious to someone in the same time zone, I don't know, but it is not to everyone else, at least it was not to me.

The same applies to support. It is very friendly, but I had to wait 2 days in several occasions to get an answer, not to mention the various confusion and mistakes.

This is my review based on experience.

dom64- Thank you for that review. Feedback like this is very helpful.

I spoke with my team to get an update on why there was confusion or errors. First, I do want to apologize.

After speaking with them, they do remember your situation and stated that since there was two email addresses for one user that created a bit of confusion on a couple of occasions. I do know they quickly rectified any issues and hope you are satisfied with them providing a complimentary Trading Combine.

As for the your other points, we do try to provide all platform, rules, and relevant information on our website in an easy to find manner and we do understand there can be confusion as there is a lot of information. I will look into getting the information that you stated more prevalent as we want to ensure all traders in our program have a complete understanding with no uncertainty of what to expect at TopstepTrader. We all know there is enough uncertainty in the market.

Thanks again for the feedback and we hope to see you back with TST soon.

mp

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 dom64 
London, UK
 
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Posts: 93 since Aug 2012

Apologies accepted! Again, I am just reporting my experience. Just to confirm, I only have 1 email adress, at least I only used one email adress to setup my combine, but there was some confusion (this is not the debate, and it really doesn't matter but I have email communication if you wish). Maybe was I unclear, maybe just misunderstood, I don't know, but there was some confusion.

I will do another combine, more suited to my way of trading anyway, so a 10 or 15 contracts, and now that I am clear in the timing rules, I will ensure this is done withing trading hours. Just a good idea to make these more obvious in my humble opinion.

Many thanks

Dom



TopstepTrader View Post
dom64- Thank you for that review. Feedback like this is very helpful.

I spoke with my team to get an update on why there was confusion or errors. First, I do want to apologize.

After speaking with them, they do remember your situation and stated that since there was two email addresses for one user that created a bit of confusion on a couple of occasions. I do know they quickly rectified any issues and hope you are satisfied with them providing a complimentary Trading Combine.

As for the your other points, we do try to provide all platform, rules, and relevant information on our website in an easy to find manner and we do understand there can be confusion as there is a lot of information. I will look into getting the information that you stated more prevalent as we want to ensure all traders in our program have a complete understanding with no uncertainty of what to expect at TopstepTrader. We all know there is enough uncertainty in the market.

Thanks again for the feedback and we hope to see you back with TST soon.

mp


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 dom64 
London, UK
 
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Is there a discount for futures.io (formerly BMT) members, or/and Jigsaw users, and/or for someone who has doen a combine previously?

Thanks

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  #458 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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dom64 View Post
Is there a discount for futures.io (formerly BMT) members, or/and Jigsaw users, and/or for someone who has doen a combine previously?

Thanks

There is a special promotion for Elite Members of futures.io (formerly BMT). Click 'Elite' top of any page to see it.

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 resist 
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I am thinking about starting more than one combine of 30 or 50 k and to trade not all instruments in same combine but only few in each - also there are sometimes trading opportunities in one instrument but not in others but the fixed schedule of 10 or 20 days forces to trade the other underlyings too - specially if they had already a loosing trade and there are only few trading day left.
I think I read thatīs possible to open more than one combine same time, when there is more than one successful combine would it be bossible to get two or more accounts funded, e.g. one trading CL, one GC ?

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 Big Mike 
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Tip


There will be a Live AMA session with Michael Patak of TopstepTrader on Wednesday, June 25th @ 12:00 PM ET.

- Quick and casual, 30 minute cap
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- Recording uploaded to AMA thread afterwards
- Attend live to get your questions answered

The link for the event is:
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/511677702




You can find the main Ask Me Anything (AMA) discussion thread here:


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 bobwest 
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resist View Post
I am thinking about starting more than one combine of 30 or 50 k and to trade not all instruments in same combine but only few in each - also there are sometimes trading opportunities in one instrument but not in others but the fixed schedule of 10 or 20 days forces to trade the other underlyings too - specially if they had already a loosing trade and there are only few trading day left.
I think I read thatīs possible to open more than one combine same time, when there is more than one successful combine would it be bossible to get two or more accounts funded, e.g. one trading CL, one GC ?

I believe this has already been answered at some point.

As I understand it, you can take more than one Combine at a time, but TsT will only provide one account per trader. It's a matter of controlling their exposure to any one trader.

As you trade and produce higher profits, you can increase the size (number of contracts) and instruments that you trade. You just have to prove that you are ready for it.

Hope this answers the question for you....

Bob

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 resist 
Berlin Germany /Alicante Spain
 
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In my understanding a combine can only be "rolled" without new "deposit" if you have no loss on any traded underlyings, that means if you have a total loss of 100 $ on NQ and a profit of 1000$ on YM and you fullfilled all other "rules" (Overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater + Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed Daily Loss Limit + Account Balance will not hit or exceed Trailing Max Drawdown) you will not be rolled even if your total profit is 900 $.

You will have to send new "deposit" because of "Rule not met Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded".

Only to clarify, I think that means that you have to be a almost "ready" trader because you have to make a positive result on any traded product in 10 days - in my opinion best you take only advantages in one product or at the middle of a combine you trade only on negative products "making them positive again" to keep your combine "roll-able".

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 Daytrader999 
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resist View Post
In my understanding a combine can only be "rolled" without new "deposit" if you have no loss on any traded underlyings, that means if you have a total loss of 100 $ on NQ and a profit of 1000$ on YM and you fullfilled all other "rules" (Overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater + Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed Daily Loss Limit + Account Balance will not hit or exceed Trailing Max Drawdown) you will not be rolled even if your total profit is 900 $.

You will have to send new "deposit" because of "Rule not met Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded".

Yes, that's absolutely correct.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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Turveyd
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It's a lot of rules, I'm amazed anyone qualifys to actually trade with them, I'm not even going to try shame likely be a good way out of my current cash flow issues!!


Anything similar but more realistic around ??

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 bobwest 
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Turveyd View Post
It's a lot of rules, I'm amazed anyone qualifys to actually trade with them, I'm not even going to try shame likely be a good way out of my current cash flow issues!!


Anything similar but more realistic around ??

If you look at their rules, they concentrate mainly on loss control. Many people (including me) have found that taking the Combine improves their trading discipline, and hence their trading results.

The people at TsT are long-time ex-pit traders. They want to keep losses in hand, to insure long-term survival. Without that, there's no real chance of profit, over time. It's a point of view that's worth considering.

(Also, remember that the funded account is not just an account where they were nice enough to give you free money to trade with. A funded trader is trading a portion of the firm's capital; every trading firm, including TsT, has risk control procedures in place to limit its losses incurred by its traders. The Combine enforces similar risk control, which is not a bad thing for a trader to learn.)

@Big Mike mentioned somewhere that, in his view, the value of the Combine is in the discipline, much more than the hope of getting funded.

On that basis, I always recommend it. It also gives a chance for a very realistic assessment of where you really are in your trading....

That's just me, of course. Some people look at the rules and say, "I don't want to trade like that." Different strokes for different folks....

Bob.

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Turveyd
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bobwest View Post
If you look at their rules, they concentrate mainly on loss control. Many people (including me) have found that taking the Combine improves their trading discipline, and hence their trading results.

The people at TsT are long-time ex-pit traders. They want to keep losses in hand, to insure long-term survival. Without that, there's no real chance of profit, over time. It's a point of view that's worth considering.

(Also, remember that the funded account is not just an account where they were nice enough to give you free money to trade with. A funded trader is trading a portion of the firm's capital; every trading firm, including TsT, has risk control procedures in place to limit its losses incurred by its traders. The Combine enforces similar risk control, which is not a bad thing for a trader to learn.)

@Big Mike mentioned somewhere that, in his view, the value of the Combine is in the discipline, much more than the hope of getting funded.

On that basis, I always recommend it. It also gives a chance for a very realistic assessment of where you really are in your trading....

That's just me, of course. Some people look at the rules and say, "I don't want to trade like that." Different strokes for different folks....

Bob.

I have tight loss control, don't get me wrong agree with that part, but a lot of the rules sound abit over the top really, but I'm a haphazard kinda trader so guess they would do.

Nothing else going with less rules then ?

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 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
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Turveyd View Post
It's a lot of rules, I'm amazed anyone qualifys to actually trade with them, I'm not even going to try shame likely be a good way out of my current cash flow issues!!


Anything similar but more realistic around ??

It is their money. I would have a lot of rules and conditions as well.

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 tturner86 
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bobwest View Post
If you look at their rules, they concentrate mainly on loss control. Many people (including me) have found that taking the Combine improves their trading discipline, and hence their trading results.

The people at TsT are long-time ex-pit traders. They want to keep losses in hand, to insure long-term survival. Without that, there's no real chance of profit, over time. It's a point of view that's worth considering.

(Also, remember that the funded account is not just an account where they were nice enough to give you free money to trade with. A funded trader is trading a portion of the firm's capital; every trading firm, including TsT, has risk control procedures in place to limit its losses incurred by its traders. The Combine enforces similar risk control, which is not a bad thing for a trader to learn.)

@Big Mike mentioned somewhere that, in his view, the value of the Combine is in the discipline, much more than the hope of getting funded.

On that basis, I always recommend it. It also gives a chance for a very realistic assessment of where you really are in your trading....

That's just me, of course. Some people look at the rules and say, "I don't want to trade like that." Different strokes for different folks....

Bob.

It's the difference between being professional or not.

But I agree the discipline is the biggest thing you will received. Or a cold wake up call that you might not be cut out for the big leagues.

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 ZENDINA 
sacramento, ca
 
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I started a combine a few days ago and have the journal of my results on futures.io (formerly BMT). I have completed 3 days so far, so I have 7 days to go. In my experience, it has already benefited me, so I feel like a winner already. Now, before every single trade, I ask myself "Is this trade in my client's best interest?". After all, I am asking to manage someone else's money and it is my responsibility to prove that I am worthy of this priviledge and have respect for their hard earned money. This has shifted my thinking and has improved my performance. So, hooray for the combine!

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 bobwest 
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ZENDINA View Post
I started a combine a few days ago and have the journal of my results on futures.io (formerly BMT). I have completed 3 days so far, so I have 7 days to go. In my experience, it has already benefited me, so I feel like a winner already. Now, before every single trade, I ask myself "Is this trade in my client's best interest?". After all, I am asking to manage someone else's money and I need to prove that I am worthy of this priviledge and have respect for their hard earned money. This has shifted my thinking and has improved my performance. So, hooray for the combine!

It has been helpful to me too, but this is the first time I have seen this thought expressed, at least in this way. I can see how the awareness of responsibility to someone else can make a difference, in how solid and well-thought-out your judgments are.

Well put.

Bob.

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 ZENDINA 
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bobwest View Post
It has been helpful to me too, but this is the first time I have seen this thought expressed, at least in this way. I can see how the awareness of responsibility to someone else can make a difference, in how solid and well-thought-out your judgments are.

Well put.

Bob.


Hi Bob,

I appreciate your kind thoughts. For me, the realization that I am a guardian of someone else's money has been crucial to better decision making. I like your word "solid" since it describes well how the combine has made my decision making much more sound. Best wishes to you in your trading journey.

:0)
Dina

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 Big Mike 
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  #473 (permalink)
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Turveyd View Post
It's a lot of rules, I'm amazed anyone qualifys to actually trade with them, I'm not even going to try shame likely be a good way out of my current cash flow issues!!


Anything similar but more realistic around ??


Turveyed- You can customize your rules. All traders should have rules they follow or they will struggle to stay on a consistent path. IF you are not consistent then you have no idea what to work on to get better. Trading is a process. The Combine is a career development tool as well as a funding opportunity.

We have traders in the Combine with only a couple rules, as I mentioned above you can customize them. You mentioned there are a lot of rules. Can I ask what rules you would like to remove?

Here are the rules:

-trade 10 days within 30 calendar days*
-always implement stops with an open position
-only trade permitted products, during the permitted times
-achieve an Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded
-achieve an Overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater
-ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed my Daily Loss Limit
-ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown
(https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/combine_rules)

Thanks for your input.

mp

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  #474 (permalink)
 Hulk 
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I believe this is a good move on TopStep Trader's part. I was looking forward to not having any time restrictions. That was the only part about the combines that I didn't like, the restriction and added pressure of making x dollars every day or in y number of days. Enter the continuous combine. Good job TST.



https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/learnmore

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  #475 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Hulk View Post
I believe this is a good move on TopStep Trader's part. I was looking forward to not having any time restrictions. That was the only part about the combines that I didn't like, the restriction and added pressure of making x dollars every day or in y number of days. Enter the continuous combine. Good job TST.

Beat me to it. I was going to say the same thing.

When you get near the end of a 10-day Combine (or 20, same issue), and you are close to rollover (or, I assume, to passing -- just never got that close ), needing to have one more winning day, or x more dollars, can put serious pressure on you. This way, they back off on the pressure, but there is still enough to make it semi-close to live, and so it's a good learning experience and a fair test of what you can do. But the deadline is less artificial.

Bob.

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Hulk View Post
I believe this is a good move on TopStep Trader's part. I was looking forward to not having any time restrictions. That was the only part about the combines that I didn't like, the restriction and added pressure of making x dollars every day or in y number of days. Enter the continuous combine. Good job TST.



https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/learnmore

Hulk- We try to listen and make appropriate adjustments at TopstepTrader when we receive feedback that we feel will benefit the trader as well as aid in their development. I was happy to be apart of the Continuous Combine project.

Traders now have all the time they need to meet the objective. I like the Continuous Combine as I believe it will give traders a better opportunity to develop their patience. The Combine has already proven that it helps traders develop their discipline, which is one of the biggest hurdles a trader has to overcome.

Now a trader can develop another fascade of their game, while working towards a funding opportunity and that is what I am most excited about.

mp

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Turveyed- You can customize your rules. All traders should have rules they follow or they will struggle to stay on a consistent path. IF you are not consistent then you have no idea what to work on to get better. Trading is a process. The Combine is a career development tool as well as a funding opportunity.

We have traders in the Combine with only a couple rules, as I mentioned above you can customize them. You mentioned there are a lot of rules. Can I ask what rules you would like to remove?

Here are the rules:

-trade 10 days within 30 calendar days*
-always implement stops with an open position
-only trade permitted products, during the permitted times
-achieve an Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded
-achieve an Overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater
-ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed my Daily Loss Limit
-ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown
(https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/combine_rules)

Thanks for your input.

mp

Well I don't like :-

-ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed my Daily Loss Limit.
Reason........... Unless your an uber small SL user then you can't use your 5 Lots, well not at first on the day

-ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown
Although you need this, 4% of account value is to restrictive, 10% and that's more like it.

The Continuous will help, it was going to be hard to make enough profit, with the above restrictions I don't like, but no longer an issue.

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 Hulk 
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Hulk- We try to listen and make appropriate adjustments at TopstepTrader when we receive feedback that we feel will benefit the trader as well as aid in their development. I was happy to be apart of the Continuous Combine project.

Traders now have all the time they need to meet the objective. I like the Continuous Combine as I believe it will give traders a better opportunity to develop their patience. The Combine has already proven that it helps traders develop their discipline, which is one of the biggest hurdles a trader has to overcome.

Now a trader can develop another fascade of their game, while working towards a funding opportunity and that is what I am most excited about.

mp

Absolutely. I, for one, am very thankful. If you think about it, when trading a live account, there are no time restrictions. As @bobwest said, when its the last or penultimate day of a combine and you are short a few dollars, to either make the target or earn a rollover, it becomes so difficult because now, you are looking for a trade rather than let the trade come to you and we all know what happens then. I have been there about 5-6 times now and not once has it worked out in my favor. The only times I have cleared the target is when I did it earlier during the combine.

So now, the continuous combine makes it as real as it can get to trading live, without actually having anything but the monthly fee at risk. Its brilliant. Thanks.

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  #479 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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Turveyed- You can customize your rules. All traders should have rules they follow or they will struggle to stay on a consistent path. IF you are not consistent then you have no idea what to work on to get better. Trading is a process. The Combine is a career development tool as well as a funding opportunity.

We have traders in the Combine with only a couple rules, as I mentioned above you can customize them. You mentioned there are a lot of rules. Can I ask what rules you would like to remove?

Here are the rules:

-trade 10 days within 30 calendar days*
-always implement stops with an open position
-only trade permitted products, during the permitted times
-achieve an Average Net P&L greater than $0 for each product traded
-achieve an Overall Winning Day percentage of 55 or greater
-ensure my Largest Losing Day will not hit or exceed my Daily Loss Limit
-ensure my Account Balance will not hit or exceed my Trailing Max Drawdown
(https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/combine_rules)

Thanks for your input.

mp

The rule that keeps me from taking a combine is the 55% winning days.
In reality with a 10 day combine it's 60%
It shouldn't matter how many winning days a trader has if they can meet all the other goals.

By asking a trader to have a certain percentage of winning days you are setting them up to have to trade their way out of trouble. If the first trade of the day is a loss the trader is now forced to take at least one more trade to try and get back to even. They would be better off waiting for the perfect set up.

To me the object should be to achieve the profit goal. I like the daily loss and max loss limits. But if a trader can stay within those limits and still trade profitably does it make any difference how many profitable days he has?

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #480 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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deaddog View Post
The rule that keeps me from taking a combine is the 55% winning days.
In reality with a 10 day combine it's 60%
It shouldn't matter how many winning days a trader has if they can meet all the other goals.

By asking a trader to have a certain percentage of winning days you are setting them up to have to trade their way out of trouble. If the first trade of the day is a loss the trader is now forced to take at least one more trade to try and get back to even. They would be better off waiting for the perfect set up.

To me the object should be to achieve the profit goal. I like the daily loss and max loss limits. But if a trader can stay within those limits and still trade profitably does it make any difference how many profitable days he has?

I believe that it has to do with consistency. They would like you to be consistent with your profit, not make $2000 in a day and then lose $300 over the next 9 days or the other way around.

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 dom64 
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It now makes sense. Other rules are rules, which one can follow if one can trade. But the defined number of days is indeed completely unnatural, as it forces you to apply math to Trading (goal divided by number of days), and Trading has nothing to do with random external rules, self defined target, stops etc. The market does what it does regardless of our persona set of rules, so we have to trade the market not rules/$goals etc (and his is exactly why one should never trade with a $live P&L on).

Anyway, I have been trading full time, successfully for a good number of years (never a negative week and very few negative days) and tried a couple of combine for fun, especially as I wanted to see how I could trade random/external rules, and failed twice! This is quite ironic really, as it is meant to teach one how to trade, but someone who can and has been doing it for a living for years, fails. Main reason, was indeed the 10/20 days time frame. If forces you to trade to reach the daily average or daily minimum, even on a day when there is no more to be done FOR YOU. There are 200$ days, 400$ days, 1500$ days, 150$ days.... You can not decide on what the market can give nor change your rules to adapt to a random daily target set by a random amount of days you have to trade.

So, yes this is a very good thing, getting closer to Trading live in real life as a Retail.

The last thing which is much more "workable" but still unreal is the tails closing times.. 10 minutes past...??? Why not 5, 6, 18..? It has to stop at some stage before unless you have a account which can take overnight positions, but why would you get out of the market before the close, when you know there are tonns of algos which work the close and will get back to VWAP and/or VWAP SD1 for example? Or time slice and keep a last slice minutes if not seconds before the close, etc..? This makes as much sense as if there was a rule where you could not trade the open for 20 mn..!

Anyway, that rule is more workable, but does not apply to the reality of the market. New noontime limit combine is a good idea.

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 DarkPoolTrading 
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Hulk View Post
I believe this is a good move on TopStep Trader's part. I was looking forward to not having any time restrictions. That was the only part about the combines that I didn't like, the restriction and added pressure of making x dollars every day or in y number of days. Enter the continuous combine. Good job TST.



https://www.topsteptrader.com:443/learnmore

Excellent addition in my opinion. The one thing that always bothered me about the combines is the pressure to trade X number of days within Y time period. You may find that your last couple of days of the combine fall over rollover or on FOMC for example,...a period which many traders do not want to trade but have to force trades anyway. Now that is no longer an issue.

Well done to TST for this change.

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Turveyd
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deaddog View Post
The rule that keeps me from taking a combine is the 55% winning days.
In reality with a 10 day combine it's 60%
It shouldn't matter how many winning days a trader has if they can meet all the other goals.

By asking a trader to have a certain percentage of winning days you are setting them up to have to trade their way out of trouble. If the first trade of the day is a loss the trader is now forced to take at least one more trade to try and get back to even. They would be better off waiting for the perfect set up.

To me the object should be to achieve the profit goal. I like the daily loss and max loss limits. But if a trader can stay within those limits and still trade profitably does it make any difference how many profitable days he has?

Actually the max daily loss means if you lose the first trade possibly the 2nd you can't risk trading any more anyway forcing bad starts into becoming losing days.

I rarely have down days, but 50% of days my first trade might be a loser so without being able to pull my ass out of the fire! I could fail on that.

But no day limit, so guess trade smaller 1 position, take 3 losers in a row, after 3 I'd walk away anyway, kick the mrs fuss the cat!

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  #484 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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deaddog View Post
The rule that keeps me from taking a combine is the 55% winning days.
In reality with a 10 day combine it's 60%
It shouldn't matter how many winning days a trader has if they can meet all the other goals.

By asking a trader to have a certain percentage of winning days you are setting them up to have to trade their way out of trouble. If the first trade of the day is a loss the trader is now forced to take at least one more trade to try and get back to even. They would be better off waiting for the perfect set up.

To me the object should be to achieve the profit goal. I like the daily loss and max loss limits. But if a trader can stay within those limits and still trade profitably does it make any difference how many profitable days he has?

There's certainly something in this comment. There is a point to requiring a certain minimum level of consistent performance, but many people (me, for instance ) find the 55% (yes, really 60%) of profitable days to be a big problem.... especially since you can be down something like $5 for the day, which is basically a scratch day, and it counts against your percentage. I'm in a Combine now, and I'm starting to watch my winning/losing days a little more than I would like.

There are a couple of things that you can do about this, however:

1. Propose a customized Combine. You can propose a different set of rules that will suit you better. TsT will review them, and they are fairly flexible in what they approve. They just want to have good risk control and good measures of success. (For instance, they flatly refuse to consider not having the daily loss limit or a drawdown limit.) To your point, I read in their chat room yesterday where a guy got a customized Combine without the daily winning percent at all. I think he proposed, in its place, that his percentage of winning trades, not days, would be over 50% by the end of the Combine, and that his average duration in winning trades would be greater than his average duration in losing trades. In other words, on balance he's a winner, and he's cutting his loses quickly. Other proposed rule changes might be approved, and my impression is they will work with you on them.

This still might not meet your objection, but the point is that you can get some changes made. I know other people have gotten other requirements waived, by proposing others somewhere else, so long as TsT believes the new metrics make sense in terms of loss control and performance -- I think they have even accepted changes in profit targets, offset by additional risk control, for instance. I think there is an additional cost for them to review your customization, but it's not that much.

2. This new "continuous" Combine is a big change. Essentially, you pay a Combine fee (slightly reduced from the regular fee) once every 30 days, if you need that long. It can just continue until you're done. Of course, you may only need one 30-day span. During that time, you can trade without the time pressure. If and when you meet the Combine criteria, you email them that you're done. I don't know if you can also customize this, but I imagine that you can. You could email them to find out.

I believe that TsT is going to want something as a measure of consistency, not just meeting the profit goal. After all, if you end up trading a live account with them, you're trading their capital and they don't want big swings in their P&L. It's not just your personal account, where only you are involved.

But these alternatives to the regular rules may give at least some people more leeway. If I need to do another Combine after this one, which is certainly a possibility (ahem), I will do the continuous. Maybe I'll ask to modify this 55% of days rule, too.

Just my thoughts. I hope this is useful to you.

Bob.

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  #485 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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tturner86 View Post
I believe that it has to do with consistency. They would like you to be consistent with your profit, not make $2000 in a day and then lose $300 over the next 9 days or the other way around.

I just think the 55% rule would force traders to take trades that are not optimal because the focus is on winning days.

If you want consistency I personally would look for a trader who consistently takes only the best set-up and consistently has small losses and large profits.

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  #486 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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deaddog View Post
I just think the 55% rule would force traders to take trades that are not optimal because the focus is on winning days.

If you want consistency I personally would look for a trader who consistently takes only the best set-up and consistently has small losses and large profits.

I have actually just written a lot about focus in my journal. You shouldn't focus on the 55% rule, or even the profit needed a day to win the combine.

You should focus on executing the right setups that put you in place to win the combine (if you fail, so what? you executed your plan*). If you shift your focus from trying to keep their rules to just executing your plan you have a better chance of doing so. Its like driving a car or a bike and seeing a pothole, if you focus on the pothole odds are you will hit it. Focus on where you want to go, not the obstacle in your path. Like Greztsky would say skate to where the puck is going not where it has been. In trading as in life, attention is short, don't waste it on something that will cause you to make an error.

**After that you can start to determine if your plan was even feasible.

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  #487 (permalink)
 ratfink 
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deaddog View Post
If you want consistency I personally would look for a trader who consistently takes only the best set-up and consistently has small losses and large profits.


tturner86 View Post

**After that you can start to determine if your plan was even feasible.

Those two sentences might well sum up 80% of the job. The other 80% (it's a big job...) will always be dealing with the daemons and the demons, no matter how fine we get the execution on the good days. I can beat most monthly benchmarks if I simply take my 2 or 3 tilt days out from the count, but finding a way to prevent those will always be my own 'special' job.

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 Hulk 
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deaddog View Post
I just think the 55% rule would force traders to take trades that are not optimal because the focus is on winning days.

If you want consistency I personally would look for a trader who consistently takes only the best set-up and consistently has small losses and large profits.

I agree with this. It should either be a 55% winning day rule or a high average wining trade to losing trade ratio. Traders that take trades to hold longer and have a low win % but high win/loss $ ratio, are at a disadvantage with this rule. No one can tell if a day is going to chop around, you inevitably take a trade and after some time find out that this is not your kind of day and stop trading for the day. You may lose a little on such days but the days when it goes in your favor, you might be making many multiples of your losses. I think TST should change this and have a choice between a 55% winning day rule or a maybe 3:1 avg win:avg loss ratio.

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  #489 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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You guys are forgetting, simply submit a custom combine.

Mike

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 Hulk 
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Big Mike View Post
You guys are forgetting, simply submit a custom combine.

Mike

Mike, custom combine is like a negotiation. For altering a rule, you have to agree to something else - usually a higher target to be able to roll over (at least, thats what I had to do) or lesser contracts available to trade or maybe something else that I dont know about.

If there are any rules that force traders to look for trades that arent there or are sub-optimal, then TST isnt judging their true trading abilities. I think it is in the interest of both parties to modify the 55% rule or to have a different option.

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  #491 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Big Mike View Post
You guys are forgetting, simply submit a custom combine.

Mike

Not all of us.

Bob.

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  #492 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Hulk View Post
Mike, custom combine is like a negotiation. For altering a rule, you have to agree to something else - usually a higher target to be able to roll over (at least, thats what I had to do) or lesser contracts available to trade or maybe something else that I dont know about.

If there are any rules that force traders to look for trades that arent there or are sub-optimal, then TST isnt judging their true trading abilities. I think it is in the interest of both parties to modify the 55% rule or to have a different option.

@Hulk, you're absolutely right about the negotiation.

I was impressed by the deal the guy I quoted got: no winning % days, and "his percentage of winning trades, not days, would be over 50% by the end of the Combine, and that his average duration in winning trades would be greater than his average duration in losing trades."

Sounds like he may have gotten a better deal. So maybe you can get them (better rules), but it could be simpler. And maybe not so much up to how a particular negotiation goes.

I think that the change to the continuous Combine is actually a much better answer than trying to negotiate the 55% away. I'm very glad they have it now.

Bob.

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 deaddog 
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tturner86 View Post
I have actually just written a lot about focus in my journal. You shouldn't focus on the 55% rule, or even the profit needed a day to win the combine.

You should focus on executing the right setups that put you in place to win the combine (if you fail, so what? you executed your plan*). If you shift your focus from trying to keep their rules to just executing your plan you have a better chance of doing so. Its like driving a car or a bike and seeing a pothole, if you focus on the pothole odds are you will hit it. Focus on where you want to go, not the obstacle in your path. Like Greztsky would say skate to where the puck is going not where it has been. In trading as in life, attention is short, don't waste it on something that will cause you to make an error.

**After that you can start to determine if your plan was even feasible.

I agree; at this moment my trading strategy (a profitable strategy with a positive expectancy) won't cut it in a combine. I know that so I won't play.

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 deaddog 
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bobwest View Post

I think that the change to the continuous Combine is actually a much better answer than trying to negotiate the 55% away. I'm very glad they have it now.

Bob.

With a continuous combine you either pass or fail. Is there a roll over if you are profitable but don't reach the profit target?

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 tturner86 
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deaddog View Post
With a continuous combine you either pass or fail. Is there a roll over if you are profitable but don't reach the profit target?

I believe as long as you finish net positive (and don't break the other rules) you qualify for a roll over. (Forgive me if I am wrong).

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 bobwest 
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deaddog View Post
With a continuous combine you either pass or fail. Is there a roll over if you are profitable but don't reach the profit target?


tturner86 View Post
I believe as long as you finish net positive (and don't break the other rules) you qualify for a roll over. (Forgive me if I am wrong).

My first thought was the same as @tturner86's, but then I realized I didn't know.... the idea of "finishing" is now different for this type of Combine.

I put in an email to TsT support asking that question. I expect we'll get an answer sometime on Monday. I'll post it when I have it.

Bob.

Edit: perhaps mp, @TopstepTrader, can step in here as well with a definitive answer.

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 msull35706 
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My 3 cents on that....

Being that it's a continuous combine, I'm 99.9% sure it's Pass / Fail....
That's both good and bad.
So I'm assuming no FREE rollovers.....
So be patient, keep losses small, and get your Consistent Profitability north of 70%...

Mike S.

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 bobwest 
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msull35706 View Post
My 3 cents on that....

Being that it's a continuous combine, I'm 99.9% sure it's Pass / Fail....
That's both good and bad.
So I'm assuming no FREE rollovers.....

I'm thinking now that that's possibly right, but we'll know for sure soon.

Bob.

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 futuretrader 
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Rollovers are about getting your deposit back at the end to try again. In a continuous combine there is no deposit and no end, so no rollover involved. It's strictly pay as you go, month by month.

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Turveyd
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Rollovers are about getting your deposit back at the end to try again. In a continuous combine there is no deposit and no end, so no rollover involved. It's strictly pay as you go, month by month.

Monthly fee and $100 to restart a combine any time you like I read it as, $150 +2 restarts $200 in a month this could get silly.

Of course until we know of 1 real verifiable person that's made $1 off TS I wouldn't get too excited personally.

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