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Trade Point Technologies
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Trade Point Technologies

  #81 (permalink)
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thanks. Thats good to hear. Will try and bounce of few ideas of you.

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  #82 (permalink)
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cunparis View Post
I tried to duplicate what they had and I felt I was close but.. I got to know the guy and he gave me some hints but he said what I was doing was going in a different direction. I actually liked what I was doing so I decided to pursue it and stop chasing his ideas to focus on my own.

For buy or sell, it's easy to post cherry-picked examples showing an indicator catching the top or bottom of the day. I don't try to do that at all. I look for the market to move and I just look for a low-risk point to hop on and take a small piece. So it's a very different way than what Trade Point was doing.

BTW their website isn't working. Anyone know what they're up to?

@cunparis heard the sad news that Pat passed away in sept 2014 due to illness. Was in vegas recently where i metup with Bonnie Pat's wife and business associate. Heard there are development and enhancements to existing work in the works and the site should be operation shortly.

thnx
s

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  #83 (permalink)
Trade with the flow
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I will just add one more point: When i was trying reverse engineer their algorithms for intensity, I was able to reproduce the peaks that Pat had posted in his charts showing the top and/or bottom of the day. However, my indicator also had other peaks leading up to that top/bottom. And so I asked Pat to share a chart of earlier in the day so I could see whether he had the same "false alert" peaks or if his algorithms were able to filter out the exact top/bottom. He never would post any other charts leading up to the top/bottom. If you look closely this chart of the top/bottom spans a very small timeframe. I found this same pattern occurs during the trading day and if one traded off that they'd have a very low win rate.

later I learned more about the market and auction theory etc. and now I believe that no one knows when the top or bottom is in until way after. Often when there is a huge volume spike (doesn't require intensity!) that is exhaustion volume or capitulation. Barry of Emini-watch has his "Better Momentum" indicator to show this and that's one of the key points he looks for before expecting a reversal. However Barry (or me) do not try to catch the top/bottom with this like Pat was claiming. For me when I see that potentially exhaustion volume I'm not expecting it to go much farther so for example if I'm trading short on pullbacks and I see exhaustion selling, I stop trading the short side. But I don't trade long either! I just walk away.

Someone else at Trader's Laboratory claimed to have come up with something similar to Pat's intensity, as far as I know, he didn't post that he was using it or that it was useful for him.

I hope this is helpful. Good trading everyone.

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  #84 (permalink)
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thanks @cunparis Its great that you could replicate some of the stuff.

I am not a coder so i always had to and have to rely on indicators... I do use some of Pat's indicators and it has taken me sometime to digest especially since I have not been day trading a lot for a while. An indicator is as good as the trader so there is always discretion . The charts which are shown in the thread many of them come from the Indicator pack if i am not mistaken. I do have it....but I also have something called HUD from Pat which is heads up display. I use the HUD which typically shows Commercial Interest & then I just extrapolate the Intensity which I classify as the Volume Spike into some other chart for analysis.

I have found his indicators to be very unique and helpful as I never found anyone else offering something similar. I also have Barry's stuff btw. There are quite a bit of stuff I did not look into from the indicator pack as he also classifies Net New Trades and many other things since I only look at Spikes & HUD ....but however of late I try and co-relate the spikes to index arb's and a lot of volume work i look into. This is something I have been working on and will be trying to understand the exact co-relation before i start on day trading again as this maybe my edge.

but from what i see and understand there is a definitive co-relation on the intensity of the spike from his charts and what the markets do in a span during/after. I have almost replicated them using 10sec/1sec charts of Indicators in Tradestation where it is apparent if it is Buy/Sell volume...or exhaustion but still reply on the spikes from his chart as it is much cleaner and better since the 1sec/10sec charts on my PC requires more horse power.

anyways i think it's a good discussion. I really think there is a difference as you rightly said between a volume spike & Intensity.

Thanks for sharing your views.

thnx n cheers
s

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  #85 (permalink)
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cunparis View Post
...so I asked Pat to share a chart of earlier in the day so I could see whether he had the same "false alert" peaks or if his algorithms were able to filter out the exact top/bottom. He never would post any other charts leading up to the top/bottom. If you look closely this chart of the top/bottom spans a very small timeframe. I found this same pattern occurs during the trading day and if one traded off that they'd have a very low win rate.

Someone else at Trader's Laboratory claimed to have come up with something similar to Pat's intensity, as far as I know, he didn't post that he was using it or that it was useful for him.

I created an indicator that would closely duplicate Pat's. It worked pretty much just like his and did what he said his did.
(He was not very helpful in the creation)
He would not post charts other than the hand picked examples but as cunparis said, other signals were produced.

I decided the indicator was not great for trading every signal and I have developed better replacements.
Here is an image I made of the original indicator in 2010.
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  #86 (permalink)
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hi @DavidHP i guess he may have had his reasons not to post. One reason I can think of is the Spikes are real time. I have no way to see them if Tradestation is not up and running means they cannot be seen in a backtested method.

I normally do not post these but since you mentioned thought of posting.since i find them useful. Anyways I am just a user and my bias since I like it. This is part of my HUD feed but is similar to the spikes seen on the web. I however use the HUD and Spikes with a different co-relation which I will not discuss here since this is only related to the spikes.

thanks for sharing your views.

cheers
s

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  #87 (permalink)
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paps View Post
i guess he may have had his reasons not to post. One reason I can think of is the Spikes are real time.

Thanks for posting your charts.
I think I've used the correct time period on the chart below.
I'm in Central Time zone and I think your charts are your local time.

When I spoke with Pat he was not selling the indicator but later offered it for sale after the 'teasing' on Traders Lab.
I don't blame him for not helping to create the indicator and my comment was not critical of his decision to not share his insights.

The biggest issue I found with the indicator was that it only seemed to work well on Volume Bars (Share bars in Tradestation). That created some issues with picking the correct size of the bars. When ES is very busy (high volume), a bigger bar was needed to get the desired result. When ES was slow(premarket or low volume), a different size bar was best. As long as the correct bar size was used, the indicator worked fine, if the wrong size bar was used, the signal was either missing or at the wrong time.

That is why I developed a different way to accomplish the same result with more consistent results over varying market conditions.
This worked much better for me.

I hesitate to display this since I can not share the indicator nor the bar types.
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  #88 (permalink)
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DavidHP View Post
Thanks for posting your charts.
I think I've used the correct time period on the chart below.
I'm in Central Time zone and I think your charts are your local time.

When I spoke with Pat he was not selling the indicator but later offered it for sale after the 'teasing' on Traders Lab.
I don't blame him for not helping to create the indicator and my comment was not critical of his decision to not share his insights.

The biggest issue I found with the indicator was that it only seemed to work well on Volume Bars (Share bars in Tradestation). That created some issues with picking the correct size of the bars. When ES is very busy (high volume), a bigger bar was needed to get the desired result. When ES was slow(premarket or low volume), a different size bar was best. As long as the correct bar size was used, the indicator worked fine, if the wrong size bar was used, the signal was either missing or at the wrong time.

That is why I developed a different way to accomplish the same result with more consistent results over varying market conditions.
This worked much better for me.

I hesitate to display this since I can not share the indicator nor the bar types.
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Hi ...yea thnx for sharing your charts. Am on PST. I know quite many people were able to come very close to his charts with whatever info he shared on the web or at Traderslab.

I too have an almost a mimic of the same for the spikes i have worked on ...but never could get a very clean chart...probably coz i have zilch programming expertise. Yes when one get the spikes it is then left for any other analysis/techniques discretion or strategy to improve unless automation is so good that the detection triggers a buy/sell.

am not sure if it was a tease. I guess he did not want someone loose their shirt. many people may not really know what it takes to become successful as surely a indicator cannot make u rich whereas it can get rid of yr riches . anyways if you search the forum you would see I have been on a subscription which am currently on. I intend and my desire is to stay with Tradestation and Tradepoint for quite a while and will be looking for any updates to the sw in the near future. Was lucky to get the subscription as it was not offered straight away when i 1st approached him and approached many times subsequently when something triggered.

Anyways I did have the opportunity to meet Pat for an amazing evening during a vegas trip. He was quite a fantastic person to have met and I will remember him for many of the things we talked when we met...and for him he introducing me to the concept of the HUD and the spikes.

anyways goodluck.... and thnx for sharing yr comments.

cheers
s

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  #89 (permalink)
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I also believe that intensity (maybe not spikes) can be helpful in trading.

here's an indicator that measures intensity, including bid, ask and total volume. looks kind of nice, but not saying much without knowing what to look for:

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now since I like to pay attention to bid/ask (delta) divergences, I included that with the intensity indicator as well. looking already better:

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like mentioned above, I like bid/ask (delta) divergences. so we can include the delta volume divergence indicator here:

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and when we put those 2 indicators on the same chart, it looks like this:

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that's already a big improvement. but we still can do better

now we also take a look at the volume ladder. here pay we pay attention to the max and min delta divergences. that would have created the following trades (from yesterday and not cherry picked):

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the following would have been the worst trade. still good for 2 points, but could have resulted in a loss:

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have to say, there're a couple trades I wouldn't have taken. those were just examples without considering the actual details from the volume ladder. but still nice trades and I would like to call them the "quadruple divergence"

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  #90 (permalink)
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@Silvester17 Must say yr ladder looks nice and you have a valid point and unique perspective and compliments OF is what I gather if used together.

I have traded off ladders in the past and have done so very successfuly due to very unique characteristics. vendor site did so much stuff with order flow and ladders that it was not funny. Won't get into vendor names here. Problem for me was it needed use of NT or their prop sw and was mostly in a lang which was not english which meant i had to go thru extra step of translating their videos and document for myself meant $s and time spent doing that...and had to also subscribe to data feed . Lol too much trouble since i cannot cut away from TradestatIon. The best have seen in OF trading considering have gone thru some few Of sw. I say this as I love the unique insight u bring in yr chart which is refreshing.

Anyways the thread focuses on spike..intensity so will not divert. I love what I have from Tradepoint and use it differently to what you showed. But thnx for sharing. It's a unique perspective and valid as you show. Even just ladders when used needs a good way to analyze which I have seen in the past as I mentioned. Really appreciate u sharing. If you ever consider Tradestation and can get a ladder in there I hope we can get in touch .

Friday was a day when stuff was very apparent with spike..intensity at peak. A similar day was around couple of weeks back. I guess yr chart is from last friday. People who understand markets will never cherry pick as yrself . Thnx again

Cheers
s

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