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Trade Point Technologies
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Trade Point Technologies

  #31 (permalink)
Elite Member
SE-Asia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Amp
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 141 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 57 given, 112 received


RJay View Post
Hi DavidHP,

Trying to get my head around some things like this,

"We feel that the bid/asked approach to designating buying or selling volume is flawed in several ways."

"To demonstrate one of those flaws, please consider the situation where a very large buyer places a limit order at the current asked price - the order is larger than the asked size so he is partially filled at the asked and as the order took all the asked size the asked moves up and so does the bid. Now the remainder of this large buyer's order is on the bid and trade that fills this large buyer, on his bid, is recorded as selling volume. "

"Thankfully there are intelligent agents capable of sorting all this."


Does anyone know what " intelligent agents" means??

RJay

In the NT Forum theres an indicator named GOMCD with a recorder indicator, in the file the author "define" the following :

 
Code
if (ask<bid) // should not happen but does
				{ 
					if (price<ask) 		    tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
					else if (price==ask) 	tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtAsk;
					else if (price<bid) 	tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
					else if (price==bid) 	tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtBid;
					else 					tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
				}
				else if (bid<ask) //normal case
				{
					if (price<bid) 		    tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
					else if (price==bid)	tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtBid;
					else if (price<ask)	    tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
					else if (price==ask) 	tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtAsk;
					else					tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
				}
				else //bid==ask, should not happen
				{
					if (price<bid)		    tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
					else if (price>ask)	    tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
					else				    tickType=tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
				}
Then according to this she calculates the cumulative delta, don't know if this information is what you look for or help you.

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  #32 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.innovative-trading-solutions-online.com 
Hartford, CT. USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG, Kinetick
Favorite Futures: TF
 
RJay's Avatar
 
Posts: 676 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 725 given, 740 received


Prtester View Post
In the NT Forum theres an indicator named GOMCD with a recorder indicator, in the file the author "define" the following :

 
Code
if (ask<bid) // should not happen but does
                { 
                    if (price<ask)             tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
                    else if (price==ask)     tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtAsk;
                    else if (price<bid)     tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
                    else if (price==bid)     tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtBid;
                    else                     tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
                }
                else if (bid<ask) //normal case
                {
                    if (price<bid)             tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
                    else if (price==bid)    tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtBid;
                    else if (price<ask)        tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
                    else if (price==ask)     tickType=TickTypeEnum.AtAsk;
                    else                    tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
                }
                else //bid==ask, should not happen
                {
                    if (price<bid)            tickType=TickTypeEnum.BelowBid;
                    else if (price>ask)        tickType=TickTypeEnum.AboveAsk;
                    else                    tickType=tickType=TickTypeEnum.BetweenBidAsk;
                }
Then according to this she calculates the cumulative delta, don't know if this information is what you look for or help you.

Prtester,

I don't know about you, but this is beyond my limited expertise.

I'm going to do some more studying and thinking, then ask the source!!!

RJay

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  #33 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
United States of America
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 262 given, 471 received


Guys, I read all of Pat's threads on TL and ET (he is banned) and here's my 2 cents.

A. Urmablume's stuff is for high frequency, large size tick scalping, a style I have no interest in.

B. I think he cherry picked those examples.

C. He never posted anything about how this stuff makes him profitable despite repeated request from members.

D. He never posted any templates are indicators to share with the forum. Instead, he enjoyed dropping little hints about how this stuff is made. Totally the antithesis of this place.

E. I don't believe there are "speculative commercial traders" in this ES market who throw out hundreds or thousands of contracts as a naked bet, like black or red on a roulette wheel. This comes from a reliable source who would know of these things.

F. I don't believe his indicators are predictive despite the few charts posted.

G. I don't believe anyone has predictive indicators for that matter. If they did, they would soon own the world.

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  #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
New Orleans, La (Mardi Gras City)
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Ninjatrader / Optimus Futures / AmpFutures
Favorite Futures: ES / 6E / 6B / CL
 
DavidHP's Avatar
 
Posts: 966 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 764 given, 1,336 received

If it is not profitable, nor predictive, then why was there so much made about it recently on CNBC, WSJ and other news sources?

YouTube - Inside Look - Evolution of High-Frequency Trading - Bloomberg

Bloomberg: "70% of all volume..." HFT

YouTube - Lidt om High Frequency Trading & Flashing

Being a former 'gamer' and 'hacker' I can appreciate using your 'edge' (legal or not) to win. Games such as Quake / Halo / DOOM can be manipulated via software or hacks that typical gamers don't even realize you are using against them.

(BUT YOU WIN).

With millions of dollars on the line, it would be unwise for one to not consider the possibility that this type of manipulation is occurring on the other side of your trade.

(AND THEY WIN)

BTW... Goldman Sach's made $110 million dollars a day last quarter.
At that rate, they will 'own the world' in a short time.


Zoethecus View Post
Guys, I read all of Pat's threads on TL and ET (he is banned) and here's my 2 cents.

A. Urmablume's stuff is for high frequency, large size tick scalping, a style I have no interest in.

B. I think he cherry picked those examples.

C. He never posted anything about how this stuff makes him profitable despite repeated request from members.

D. He never posted any templates are indicators to share with the forum. Instead, he enjoyed dropping little hints about how this stuff is made. Totally the antithesis of this place.

E. I don't believe there are "speculative commercial traders" in this ES market who throw out hundreds or thousands of contracts as a naked bet, like black or red on a roulette wheel. This comes from a reliable source who would know of these things.

F. I don't believe his indicators are predictive despite the few charts posted.

G. I don't believe anyone has predictive indicators for that matter. If they did, they would soon own the world.


Rejoice in the Thunderstorms of Life . . .
Knowing it's not about Clouds or Wind. . .
But Learning to Dance in the Rain ! ! !

Last edited by DavidHP; October 29th, 2009 at 06:26 PM. Reason: new info
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  #35 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.innovative-trading-solutions-online.com 
Hartford, CT. USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG, Kinetick
Favorite Futures: TF
 
RJay's Avatar
 
Posts: 676 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 725 given, 740 received

I wonder how this "balance of power" thing works!!!!

Maybe this might help.

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  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
Neubrandenburg, Germany
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: R
Favorite Futures: Stocks
 
wh's Avatar
 
Posts: 538 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 297 given, 479 received

why this short frames? it is only chaotic without symmetry ...
make a short calculation for range or renko ...

for example daily range or hourly range

daily range (average/median of the last 21 days like forex) is 150 pips -- so i add my range bar to 15 range (10%)

on hourly range the average is 30 pips the last 21 hours and the median is 15 -- so i add my range to 6 range

- a move comes

and all your results became a clear mind or not ...

i do not understand the terms of volume but keep it simple

if you trade only small frames like 1 renko, 2 range or ... you will lose your focus in the picture. the price build on higher frames. the money maker moves the markets and not an army of scalpers ...

analyse the range maybe the volume and make a picture

look at the average and the median of an x - value

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  #37 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bellingham, WA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: 6E, CL
 
Dragon's Avatar
 
Posts: 494 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 747 given, 251 received

Zoethecus,
I am naturally a skeptic myself so I completely understand where you are coming from. It certainly appears that UrmaBlume cherrypicked her screenshots and this may all be a bunch of hogwash. Having said that, wouldn't you want to know when high frequency trading occurred if it exists? I think this concept warrants further investigation. If it leads to a dead end then at least we drew that conclusion seeing it for ourselves in real time and not from screenshots and reading posts on a thread.

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  #38 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
United States of America
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
 
Posts: 1,149 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 262 given, 471 received


Dragon View Post
Zoethecus,
I am naturally a skeptic myself so I completely understand where you are coming from. It certainly appears that UrmaBlume cherrypicked her screenshots and this may all be a bunch of hogwash. Having said that, wouldn't you want to know when high frequency trading occurred if it exists? I think this concept warrants further investigation. If it leads to a dead end then at least we drew that conclusion seeing it for ourselves in real time and not from screenshots and reading posts on a thread.

Dragon, the answer is no.

I have my hands full trying to refine 2 setups that gives me a positive expectancy without having to a bucket full of contracts for a tick or 2. IMO, the retail trader, will get crushed trying to play this game on a field that is clearly not level.

BTW, Urmablume is a man.

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  #39 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.innovative-trading-solutions-online.com 
Hartford, CT. USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG, Kinetick
Favorite Futures: TF
 
RJay's Avatar
 
Posts: 676 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 725 given, 740 received


wh View Post
why this short frames? it is only chaotic without symmetry ...
make a short calculation for range or renko ...

for example daily range or hourly range

daily range (average/median of the last 21 days like forex) is 150 pips -- so i add my range bar to 15 range (10%)

on hourly range the average is 30 pips the last 21 hours and the median is 15 -- so i add my range to 6 range

- a move comes

and all your results became a clear mind or not ...

i do not understand the terms of volume but keep it simple

if you trade only small frames like 1 renko, 2 range or ... you will lose your focus in the picture. the price build on higher frames. the money maker moves the markets and not an army of scalpers ...

analyse the range maybe the volume and make a picture

look at the average and the median of an x - value

wh,

Your absolutely right!!

But, This is what a work in progress looks like!!!!

What am I am looking for??? entry and exit points for trades.

So far, I am only getting the "interesting" results on the chart interval displayed.

I would love other time frames too!!!

If you or anyone else has a simple way to coherently display "level2" order entry at bid and ask,

Not just market order totals, the tally of orders at, above, or below the market for any fixed interval regardless of the current price!!!

Please share!!!!

Working with level2 is doable only in real time and is very time consuming.


RJay


Last edited by RJay; October 29th, 2009 at 09:22 PM.
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  #40 (permalink)
Elite Member
Columbus, OH
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,318 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 4,558 given, 10,245 received


here're some thoughts about "big traders". first you need to put yourself in the shoes of a "big trader". lets say you want to go long the ES. you buy 5000 cars. and what is your goal? your goal is the market to go up. wouldn't it be in your best interest if everybody can see, oh there's a big buyer, I'm going long too? with other words the big trader WANTS the retail trader to follow him, so price will go his way. he's more than happy to show you what he's doing. it's really that simple. the ONLY way he don't want anybody to see his trades, is when closing a transaction (short or long).

high frequency trades are more for stocks. it's a common "frontrunning" game. kind of difficult in index futures, unless you have some inside information that can influense a whole market!

So for me too, these kind of indicators are absolutely useless.

zoethecus, ich muss dir rechtgeben. vollkommen richtig.

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