Welcome to NexusFi: the best trading community on the planet, with over 150,000 members Sign Up Now for Free
Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
Quality education from leading professional traders
We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community. It's free for basic access, or support us by becoming an Elite Member -- see if you qualify for a discount below.
-- Big Mike, Site Administrator
(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)
Just turned "Pro" and could use a little help, or guidance
I'm beginning to realize one of my detriments is that i like trading. I literally love trading. And with that i'm trading too much. The practice or a sim/replay account is a good outlet for this but part of my issue is that i keep trading when i don't need to, because i want to.
So, moving forward i'm going to try and find a balance between actually doing the rec trading i want and also the income trading i'd like to do as well.
It will fall to someone to say something about it, so it might as well be me. I'll be compassionate about it, because like a lot of us I've been in similar places too.
First, congratulations and kudos for having the nerve to put this out there. Even speaking honestly just to yourself is difficult sometimes, and doing it in public is much more so.
Second, you can tell from what I quoted from your posts above what I think is the most important part. Simply, this part: "I'm beginning to realize one of my detriments is that i like trading. I literally love trading. And with that i'm trading too much. The practice or a sim/replay account is a good outlet for this but part of my issue is that i keep trading when i don't need to, because i want to. "
If someone doesn't like trading, then of course they shouldn't be doing it. But there is liking and there is being compulsive about it. It can also be exciting, thrilling even, and the downs can be devastating. And the exhilaration of overcoming a challenge can be wonderful. Both the highs and lows are dangerous to your success, the highs sometimes more so.
If you don't know why you are blowing everything up, that is why. Those emotional ups and downs will kill you, and will eat up any money you get your hands on to trade with (I take it for granted that at this point, if you get any more money you will put it into the market if you blow your current accounts.) This can be really dangerous. What's going to happen when you put the rent money in? (I've done that, or I wouldn't mention it. Trust me, if you don't do this you will at least find yourself thinking about it, if things get really tight and you need some more money to get back into it.)
Trading is not gambling, but it can be like gambling, or close enough. It can draw you in the same way.
OK, now what to do about it?
I used to think that the key to trading was essentially intellectual -- knowing the right things to do, having the right method. You do have to know some way or another, some method or another, that lets you make more on net than you lose, if the method is perfectly executed. But no one executes perfectly. The key to trading is not to know what to do, it's to not f--k it up too badly due to ill-considered, or un-considered, impulsive actions that make you later say things like "Why did I do this?"
You did this, always, because you lost control and you went nuts. How to stop this is simply to stop doing it. Easier to say than to do, but otherwise you will not stop. Simple.
I don't mean to get over-moralistic about any of this. We're talking about a practical matter, not a psychological or personal failing. But it you don't find self-control, this boom-bust cycle will not end. Period.
---------------------
I've said before in this thread that you are a good trader until you go all impulsive, so you've got an essential skill that has let you pull out, almost, time after time, and that is good. Without it, the drama would have been much shorter. So now, given that you can trade, and by that I mean trade well, the question is simply whether you will.
Advice on trading is usually as worthless as most other advice, but I can offer something for you to think about: what if you didn't care -- literally, what if it didn't matter to you -- whether a trade wins or loses, so long as it's the right trade at the time? I don't mean the uncaring carelessness of mashing the sell or buy button because you're pissed or something, I mean just making a trade because it makes sense, with your mind actually in a normal functioning mode, and being fine with whether it works or not? Also, what if you never let a losing trade become a large losing trade? Also, what if you knew at all times where you were in terms of your losses, and you simply had some real loss control and stopped for the day when things weren't working? Not that you tried to pull out of the hole, but stopped? No game face. No dramatic saving the day? Just stopped?
Well, things wouldn't be as dramatic and exciting and you wouldn't "put your game face on" on and heroically save the day, but maybe you wouldn't need to. And if losing the drama and excitement would mean that trading would no longer be interesting, that would be another problem, wouldn't it?
No one has a right to lecture anyone else about how they should trade or should live, so I'm not intending to do that. I am intending to give you a good slap upside the head and tell you to wake up. There's a difference.
The phrase "hope this helps" is over-used, but I really do hope so.
Good luck. You're actually not doing all that badly. Traders don't normally admit to it but these are very common things. They are probably why most traders fail, once they find a semi-decent method. Now do something about them.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
Bob, first and foremost i want to say that i really do appreciate your insight and your .02 on this.
First thing i want to touch on was
I've honestly worked really hard on this over the years, and it's something i had under control when i was trading options and even into my last futures account. It's the fact that trading futures feels more personal sometimes. Whether it be the fact that it is or not i'm not sure. But for some reason when you get stopped out in NQ it feels like [I]Someone[I] stopped you out. Know what i mean? Honestly i think part of the problem is i care more about being right than i do about the money. Almost like i take it personally.
I know that's juvenile in thinking and i probably should have just had a better entry majority of the time, but it does feel like that sometimes. But i have worked to take the emotion out of the money and the now extricating it from the market as a whole.
With that being said; without the 'rules' i was having to trade by i would have just cut it for the day. No game face, no heroics. I don't want to be a hero. I just want to make good trades.
Overall i have gotten a lot better at cutting the day when i should. This whole Topstep excursion really has hammered that home and that's probably one of the better parts of what the program has taught me. In my last trading account it was like i cared too little about the money as opposed to too much. I'm much better at it than i was even a month ago in my opinion. Losing the funded account really drove that home for me.
The fact that you're able to frame my inconsistencies in such a simple light is honestly beneficial. I'm an adult, there's no reason why i should 'just stop'.
Moving forward i'm going to be working on taking the emotion out of the market in terms of "taking it personal" and also treating this much more like a business in terms of thinking. Quitting while i'm ahead is going to be a big priority. If i'm up $700 for the night, stop trading. If i'm up 1k on the day and take a couple stop outs, stop trading.
I'm finding that the more passive i am in my approach, the better off i am in terms of entries and execution. So, it's all a work in progress.
Merkd, absolute kudos for such an honest and also very moving description of where you are at the moment.
A place pretty much everyone here will be familiar with.
As the only possible remedy out of the current situation Bobs reply is one of the best written pieces i've ever read, very aptly summing up the complete, total and utter importance of getting ones deepest mindset in complete order if one wants to get this to work.
Reading Market Wizards, or Livermore, or Marty Schwartz' excellent Pit Bull, or about many many others who started with nothing and made fortunes in the markets, the story is always the same, successive failures before making it.
I haven't heard of anyone who went on to make it big or at least make a living from trading who didn't blow up accounts at least once, and more usually several times.
I know I have.
But the eventual turnaround of those who went on to learn and then adapt from their identified shortcomings keeping them from where they wanted to go, was always the same: making a complete and total commitment to themselves to do whatever needs to be done to get to where they want to end up.
For trading that means rewiring yourself so that the thrill of being "right" is sent into forever retirement, and replaced by fully accepting that instead its about following a boring, repetive routine making you net profitable as the sum of the many many winning and losing trades you'll be putting on over an entire career.
Your expectancy, think you said its around 40% winners and 3:1 rr ratio, is defintely very good stuff that can proceed to get you wherever you want to go if you'll let it.
So being able to handle the inevitable losing you need to get thru to make it as a net profitable trader apparently really doesn't seem to be the issue here at all.
Instead it seems to be more of a desire to be in the game for the thrill and fun of it, which then at times downspirals into a tilt that does the damage.
The only thing to get you out of that repetive behaviour doing you harm is defining whats more important to you, and then sticking with that:
Having a good time and thrills putting on trades.
OR making it to the professional level of someone who makes a living at this and sticks to his boring routine with total patience, waiting for and trading nothing but the setups he has defined for himself, and having the discipline to do nothing else.
Simple, but not easy.
But the success relevant ingredient here is the same it is anywhere else.
Figuring out what needs to be done to get from where you are to where you want to go is seldom insurmountable rocket science.
Having the discipline to just do it is what makes the difference between those who wanted to lose weight and did, between those who have a decent trading method and are net profitable, or the sports player who was given the talent and actually went on to make something out of that.
If one has identified an overarching long term objective for oneself, failure in achieving that needs to be more painful than the short term fun or enjoyment derived from not doing what needs to be done to get you from where you are now to where you eventually want to be.
Your numbers work or can absolutely be made to work, no doubt about that, the rest is as always and everywhere in life between your ears, and your ears alone.
PS wanted to add I'd stick with trading micros and then compound that up, I think the rules these so called funding companies have are totally ridiculous and utterly detrimental on the way to making it.
The fact one has to pay for evaluations really demonstrates what their business model is, banking on the fact that 90 sthg % will fail and keep on failing, like bucket shops of yore.
Can't imagine any of them actually have any funded traders that made it big.
I don't know where the real prop trading firms of earlier years have all dissapeared off to, with them there was never any talk of having to pay for lessons or evaluations or anything like that, if you were accepted after a round of interviews you got funded with profit sharing, period.
First off, thank you for the kind words. And secondly, thank you for putting it in black and white just as Bob did earlier. This is probably becoming the fastest and most important realization of this entire experience. Slowly but surely i'm realizing i need to stay out of the market as much as possible. Which is honestly counter intuitive. But, statistically over time i'm learning that the more trades i take over the course of a 23 hour session the more i'm handicapping my long term account growth. I think at this point if i were to just stop trading after a $1000 day and stop out after a $1000 loss i'd be much more better off in the long term.
And yes, i've been tracking my trades and journaling since the funded account i'm at about a 33.5% win rate, with an average of 3.65:1. If this were just running a continuous funded account i would have a + 50.5k PnL.
Obviously, this is sim and i know that. But as you stated it's frustrating because of all the punji pits and claymores some of these funded trader programs lay out for you. And it's almost as if they're getting more and more creative.
If Topstep were to just let me trade my style, and even just shut the account off after a 2k drawdown instead of constantly try and relegate traders into their subscription/reset trap that would be 10k in revenue for them. I am a fan of some of the risk management that they teach, but it's not meant to teach. It's meant to drive revenue.
And it's funny you bring up where have all the prop firms gone; it seems as if they've all gone automated from what i can tell. There's very few if any prop firms still around doing things the way the used to. But they are out there. And what's funny is that really only changed a few years ago.
As for the micros - I was originally trading primarily micros in my own account up until the NQ May breakout when i got blown out. The only issue is the commissions. I had paid Tastywork's over 5k in commissions by May of this year. I have a propensity to just machine gun contracts in and out which is a blessing and a curse with the micros. I've played around with them recently and even since May the market is completely different, and much more automated. It's as if the (what i call sentinels) all migrated to the micros because that's where the liquidity's at. It was substantially harder to play them when i have played around with them recently. But i do hear what you're saying, and it is a lot less stressful having so much less at risk. If i do go back to trading my own account i will most likely just trade micros until i can get a decent cushion before i try and graduating to the mini's.
But back to your main point it really is just a question of doing it. It's honestly that simple. At this point i'm learning what does and does not work with more and more clarity. This is not a leisure sport. It's business.
Alright, i've been a busy guy this week. Particularly with actual work, which has ramped up significantly the past two weeks.
But i did get some trading in, and i even have (or will have) a write up on a new funding outfit.
So, wild week right? We went from doom and gloom, Chinese Lehman to fine and dandy buy everything. With SPY and ES closing positive on the week and NQ and QQQ missing a green close by .05%.
This all kicked off on Sunday with a +30 point move back into value and then followed up by a continuous overnight and intraday move -543 points in NQ and over -120 point move in ES. What a way to start the week.
Allegedly, this was the product of systemic risk China's Evergrande. One of the largest real estate developers and also one of the most indebted, largest companies in the world. But, the market had known about this risk for over a month now. On top of that it was a Fed week, plus seasonally cyclical weakness. Yeehaw.
The week started off well; Having five digit days both Monday and Tuesday hitting the first initial salvo of the volatility Sunday through Tuesday night. Things began to unravel (relatively) later in the week, but we'll get to that here shortly.
Plan for the day: After trading the overnight and already being up substantially for the day i was going to try and watch from a distance as ES and NQ were already down over 1% going into the last hour before open. But we kept selling. I frankly was caught off guard by this weakness, but it's literally my best strength in terms of trading so i went ahead and kept pouring it on and getting it while it was good. But, i was on the lookout for a possible reversal at any given time and waiting for that eventual face ripper that would smoke everyone selling it.
Risk: Started off with a 1k daily loss limit and $1500 max drawdown and 3k profit target, up to five contract lots. But, as things developed i adapted to the "2 steps forward one back" rule. Meaning don't give back what you already took going into open.
Have you ever had a day that is literally the epitome of a perfect day for your trading style? Well, Sunday into Monday was that for me. I felt almost a little guilty, like possibly how the Japanese dive bomber pilots on Pearl Harbor or any coalition pilot during the Gulf War. Just a target rich environment, little to no resistance.
Overall i really don't remember one trade over the other. But looking back at the data i had over 7 contracts for 50+ points throughout the day and my max run up was over 15k. It always blows my mind how these markets can switch to such extreme's in price action and sentiment so quickly, and it's only getting worse with time. But hell, i'll take it.
Originally i was expecting buyers to show up and step in to get their best buying opportunity since March, but volatility was overcoming with what looked like systemic, automated selling throughout the day. We hit and traded through level after level after level the entire day. There was a point where it even started to make me a little uncomfortable. Over 500 points. In a day. I had to look up how many times we'd done this before and all of them have been post COVID. With two or three being outside of the initial drop, and those were green besides Monday.
Again, i got a little too comfortable though, and still let myself down when it came to "Just stopping" as some of you have so simply put it. My max run up was $15897.30, only to be followed by a $5952.00 drawdown. This is unacceptable in my opinion. But technically i stayed within my risk parameters on the halfback rule.
Ended the day +$11295.60, after paying $1246.90 in commissions and fees.
Plan for the day: After strength the last 10 or so minutes the session before followed by the usual European bullish tone going into the cash session i actually decided to take the morning off as i had such a decent day before. And wanted to sit on the sidelines and watch the market develop as we'd just had our first such technically significant move in the indexes essentially since the beginning of the year.
So, after sitting out half of the session the set ups that were starting to form were literally too perfect for me to not take. It was an incredibly technical day with pattern, after pattern, after pattern forming and then materializing to make for a hugely tradable day for at least myself.
Screen cap from my daily video since i apparently have canned the drawings:
This was almost a 200 point range and was a literal playground for me as buyers and sellers were out for each others necks i was able to get in and out of the bank vault without anyone seeing.
Unfortunately i somehow didn't pull the trade report, but i have the .CSV file and the trade screen caps. Tradovate isn't cooperating with me currently either.
NQfills0921
NQfills09212
ESfills0921
After everything was said and done this was an $18861.25 day, with another 7 trades over 50 points in NQ and overall a solid win rate, at least for me. If i needed proof that less is more, this is it. But also the stars had aligned for me earlier this week and as i said before it really is when i do my best work.
Since it's late i'm going to have to do the latter half of the week later this weekend. But wanted to try and get caught up on this while i had the time.
Wow!! congratulations! I have never had a 18K day in my life, you are definitely doing great. I could not push so much with size, at one point I noticed you had a short position of 11 contracts. This is huge.
Are you not worried a short covering taking place and going against you?
Also, how do you enforce the daily loss limit if volatility increases? does Tradovate allow some form of autoliquidation?
Thanks buddy. It’s still sim so it holds a little less weight than a real account but i was still pretty proud of it.
As to the large position sizing i had to go back and walk through the trade again because that is excessive, even for me.
As to the rational it was just the set up. I believe that was the H&S that formed mid day across almost all the indexes and normally i’d be wary of such an obvious set up but the general tone of the market was that sellers were taking control. A month or two (or five) ago there’s no way in hell i would have put on that type of size. But the market character was obviously different.
I think i had put on half the size as it was forming and the other on the retest. It was a text book set up and i took advantage if it.
As for my personal daily loss limit i try and match it to intraday volatility, account size, and weekly profit. Tradovate does offer auto liq once any of the metrics are hit.
As for Topstep the loss limits are static and do not expand or contract with vol unfortunately.
