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Simple Setups - Journal


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Simple Setups - Journal

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  #1 (permalink)
Germany
 
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First day of the journal.
Since my signals do not occur on each trading day on each symbol. ( FDAX, ES, GC, CL, EUR )
They are traded on a first come first serve basis.
Today CL2:
Short Signal with open of bar (15:00 GMT) filled at 77,04
Short trailed to 76,06 at (15:30 GMT)
16:00 Position closed at 76,07.

Finished for today.

Regards

Locust

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looks nice, but do u trade that?

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esam_jir View Post
looks nice, but do u trade that?

It´s automated with multicharts and IB. I only use the Navigator to look at the market,keep my journal and test ideas.

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Possibility for Short Setup in GC tomorrow morning.
If GC OPEN <= Close(1).
Should be good for 5-10 points.
Stop 2 ticks above the high.

Locust

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okk - so can u fill us in on the simple setups that u use

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bizman70 View Post
okk - so can u fill us in on the simple setups that u use

It´s my definition of the Ross-Hook.
Rougher than finding a breakout it looks for possible countertrends.
I use the open of the next bar as a confirmation of the setup, therefore the call yesterday evening
followed by the trade this morning.
It works on all timeframes down two 1min.
As a stop I simply trail the previous high / low.

Locust

PS: Showed it to Joe and he does not like it, so it´s just a "HOOK"

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GC turned out be to golden, did not expect such a quick move.
Would be possible to reenter the short if market turns down again,
but since my indicators are bullish medium / longterm lets wait and see.

Locust

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The same Trade Setup like yesterday.
Long - Signal + Open within Range.
Long at 75,58.
Stop at low of last bar: 75,70 trailing.
Position: long.

Locust

PS:
Fighting with myself to take the money off the table, but it normally pays to stick to your system,
rougher than resisting temptation and to interfere just because you have gut feeling.

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Position closed at Stop 75,87.
So this time it would have been better to get out earlier.....

Locust



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Nice , please share the specific structure of your hook pattern . I see your charts and they are very clear although Im unclear how the bars relate to one another to form a hook , thanks much .

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Eric j View Post
Nice , please share the specific structure of your hook pattern . I see your charts and they are very clear although Im unclear how the bars relate to one another to form a hook , thanks much .

They are quite a few a setups that can form a hook.

Common is the one following a 123.

Take the GC-Trade this morning as an example.

I see a classic 123 pattern ( 8.Sep 10.Sep 14 Sep )
followed by a prolonged uptrend ( at least x bars up )
The first bar that shows a down move ( 27.Sep )
Triggers the Setup. If now the open of the next bar is within the
previous bars range the Trade is triggered.

As far as I understood Joe, he would set a trigger above the high and wait for the trend to continue.
That does work, but mostly not instantly.

I backtested the pattern over 20 years worth of data.
It has good years and better years, but so far not a loss.

There are specific months of the year when the pattern works better than others,
but that is about it.

If you have different definitions, lets compare.
So far i use 22 different bar setups in my active trading, ranging from the hook to even simpler ideas.

Locust

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Nice move in the CL.
Should not interfere, but this was just to good to miss.
(normally I would trail the high as a stop)

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No complains today, automatic setup working like a treat.
Currently working on tick based setups.
Turning out to be a perfect trade from short to long signal.

Locust

PS: The signals in the middle of the chart, are not traded because I do not trade between 22.00 and 8.00 GMT+1

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Hmm, did not expect such a move.
Stop trailing at 77.83, let´s wait and see.

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stone..."

Locust


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Locust View Post
Hmm, did not expect such a move.
Stop trailing at 77.83, let´s wait and see.

"Some days are diamonds, some days are stone..."

Locust


Hey Locust,

Thanks for sharing; just curious why you would use the high of day as your trailing stop in this instance?

Thanks,
Gary

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Gary View Post
Hey Locust,

Thanks for sharing; just curious why you would use the high of day as your trailing stop in this instance?

Thanks,
Gary

It´s the high of the bar with the sell setup, here it´s the high of the day, i started out adding a few points to the high, but over the last years it did show that once the high is taken the setup does not end profitable.

Why the high in general, because it is simple but includes for this point in time all the information i need.
I like bars because one can read much more than just ohlc. I tested a lot of other stop methods, but they made my systems slower and not more profitable.

As it turned out the deal went wrong, the trailing worked, so the high of the previous bar was the stop at 77,66
a loss of 2 ticks. That is fine with me after a day like that.

Locust

PS:
Hope that answered your question Gary.
If you have a better Idea, let me know.

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While the CL contract is fast paced and full of glory, here the boring HO contract.
Less noise and a bit offset to the CL-Price action.

Locust

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After Days and Days of movement without a valid setup/signal.
A nice rebound after the US-Data.

Locust



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After a "perfect day" yesterday, today a bit of a slow start....
Market 2 / Locust 0.
Let´s wait and see.



Locust

"Who is John Galt?"

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Was curious how your 30 min bars compare to my 8k volume chart.

My signals are based on the consumption of cars: as visualized by BSV39 & price action.

R.I.P. Andy Zektzer (ZTR), 1960-2010.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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Looks like a great setup, but you have to get used to the amount of information presented at once.
Which time frame / bar-range do you use ?

Attached todays CL-Signals.

Locust

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Im following along here locust . Im not familiar with your platform do please bear with me . Green = buy , blue = sell and red = sell short ?

I have read through the Toby Crabel epic book but dont use any of his concepts except ORB as an entry technique . Ill admit too that book made my brain numb reading all those stats and primitive charts .

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To me seems Green = Buy, Red = Sell, Blue = Trail Stop.
Anyway I'm not understanding well your strategy, seems you search for some candle pattern?!

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
Luke.
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Eric j View Post
Im following along here locust . Im not familiar with your platform do please bear with me . Green = buy , blue = sell and red = sell short ?

I have read through the Toby Crabel epic book but dont use any of his concepts except ORB as an entry technique . Ill admit too that book made my brain numb reading all those stats and primitive charts .

Yes, green = buy / red = sell / blue = exit ( long exit or short exit )
I know what you mean, already looking at the typewriter style his book was printed in, makes you feel sick after a while.
But it is worth it. I am stilling working on the idea of using his setups as a guideline, to come up with similar ideas.
Some of them work already in lower timeframes. Combining them with timezones during the day seems to be another great field. So ultimately a Yale Hirsch - for intraday future trading - e.g. "Don´t buy the CL on mondays between 12:00 and 15:00, buy the CL on tuesdays between 9:00 and 10:00 when you have an NR4......

Locust


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Locust View Post
Yes, green = buy / red = sell / blue = exit ( long exit or short exit )
I know what you mean, already looking at the typewriter style his book was printed in, makes you feel sick after a while.
But it is worth it. I am stilling working on the idea of using his setups as a guideline, to come up with similar ideas.
Some of them work already in lower timeframes. Combining them with timezones during the day seems to be another great field. So ultimately a Yale Hirsch - for intraday future trading - e.g. "Don´t buy the CL on mondays between 12:00 and 15:00, buy the CL on tuesdays between 9:00 and 10:00 when you have an NR4......

Locust


Interesting and sounds like a big task . Ive done a lot of work with bar patterns and the interrelations between bars and find that most conventional wisdom about candle patterns are non practical . The relation between bar patterns and momentum against support or resistance is more valid though not infallible . For example Ive found that simply if price is leaning to the bearish side or losing bullish momentum as detected on any oscillator and price trades below the last upbar ( close>open) thats as good a sell signal as most popular patterns .

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Germany
 
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LukeGeniol View Post
To me seems Green = Buy, Red = Sell, Blue = Trail Stop.
Anyway I'm not understanding well your strategy, seems you search for some candle pattern?!

The blue line indicates the price where the position was exited, and yes it is based on a trail of the previous high / low + / - the slippage.

Yes, it is a pattern,
Like i have written before, it is a variation of the ross hook plus a few tweaks to make the signal more accurate. The idea is to find an entry point for a countertrend in an established trend, it only has a high prediction for the next few bars,
therefore the trail. If the system is lucky it hits the end of a major trend and rides the new trend, if not it is responsive enough, not to break the bank, in case the signal was wrong. I first used it as a filter on eod systems because of the high success rate for the next bar. Intraday the high / low trail usually reaches break even within one completed bar, which allows to trade quite a few entries waiting for the right move to come.

Locust

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Germany
 
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Eric j View Post
Interesting and sounds like a big task . Ive done a lot of work with bar patterns and the interrelations between bars and find that most conventional wisdom about candle patterns are non practical . The relation between bar patterns and momentum against support or resistance is more valid though not infallible . For example Ive found that simply if price is leaning to the bearish side or losing bullish momentum as detected on any oscillator and price trades below the last upbar ( close>open) thats as good a sell signal as most popular patterns .

In my experience that is the more true the lower you go in your timeframe and once you have reached enough signals a day
it gets more statistically valid.

Locust

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I you are standing at a roulette table and a consecutive line of 18 times red in a row is being thrown, and you happen to know that
a.) the table is not rigged and
b.) the longest ever recorded line of one color in a row has been 19.

On which color do you put your money red or black?

Locust
On Average the DAX had 14 Up-Days in row.......



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Locust View Post
I you are standing at a roulette table and a consecutive line of 18 times red in a row is being thrown, and you happen to know that
a.) the table is not rigged and
b.) the longest ever recorded line of one color in a row has been 19.

On which color do you put your money red or black?

Locust
On Average the DAX had 14 Up-Days in row.......



Odds are the same every roll.

Mike

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Germany
 
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Big Mike View Post
Odds are the same every roll.

Mike

In now, looking at every roll independently. But looking at the whole ?
What if you roll a million times, how often will you have 2 times in a row compared to 20 times ?

Looking at the market, every trend stops at least for a short reaction once in an while. I would rougher enter a countertrend
on a day where I know that in the past with a high percentage the market went in my direction, than trading a signal against the established trend in the longer time frame.


Locust

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Locust View Post
In now, looking at every roll independently. But looking at the whole ?
What if you roll a million times, how often will you have 2 times in a row compared to 20 times ?

Looking at the market, every trend stops at least for a short reaction once in an while. I would rougher enter a countertrend
on a day where I know that in the past with a high percentage the market went in my direction, than trading a signal against the established trend in the longer time frame.


Locust

I hear what you are saying. But, I really, really suck at math so I can't make a scientific response. All I know is each roll has the same odds as the role before it and the one after it.

The market is not this simple. You would have to define and build an edge/method and then forward test it in a live market to know if your edge/method is going to work using these types of odds or statistics.

Mike

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Big Mike View Post
I hear what you are saying. But, I really, really suck at math so I can't make a scientific response. All I know is each roll has the same odds as the role before it and the one after it.

The market is not this simple. You would have to define and build an edge/method and then forward test it in a live market to know if your edge/method is going to work using these types of odds or statistics.

Mike

Me too, but I had a few brain-bucks look at the idea and the outcome is the same reason why casinos have table limits and don´t let you stand around the table for endless hours. If you have deep enough pockets to double up you change the odds after 6 to 7 throws in a row. In the equity markets after 10 - 12 bars on an eod timeframe.

Don´t get me wrong,
I am not suggesting to short after a bull run of 12 days and double on the next day in case you are wrong, everybody would be go bankrupt no matter how deep their pockets might be. But as an initial filter and point to build a possible pattern on, it works.


Locust


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Locust, have u some statistic on your method eod and intraday for the instruments u trade?

Thanks.

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
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I hope we can dive into more stats on countertrend trades especially forward testing . Im partial to a trade against the trend if a wide ranging bar with the trend , the wider the better , encounters a subsequent opposing bar for a short ride against the trend . Trend --> exhaustion ----> regrouping .

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Took a little time-off, after being definitely not in the zone.
Used the time to look at some longer timeframes.

Interesting Setup in Gold.

Even though long term the trend is stable and probably makes the perfect example for trend following books to come.

Medium Term we are at a very interesting point.

Since I outed myself as more of a countertrend trader,
let me know what you think first.


Locust


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Locust, you asked for feedback so here is mine so far. I like the simple nature of your charts. I don't understand your method or your signals, so can't comment nor should it really matter to you what I say about them.

You mentioned today you were not in the zone -- is this a 'method/signal' issue or an 'execution' issue? I'd like to know more about what guidelines you've setup in your trading plan that help you deal with being "not in the zone", and what to do about it.

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Big Mike View Post
Locust, you asked for feedback so here is mine so far. I like the simple nature of your charts. I don't understand your method or your signals, so can't comment nor should it really matter to you what I say about them.

You mentioned today you were not in the zone -- is this a 'method/signal' issue or an 'execution' issue? I'd like to know more about what guidelines you've setup in your trading plan that help you deal with being "not in the zone", and what to do about it.

Mike

It´s never one of them.
My signals and strategies are automated and long enough live traded, that I trust them to a big extend.

Me not being in the zone, is probably a common problem for all traders, things in ones personal live that you have to deal with. e.g. an argument with the wife, a close friend telling you he seriously ill..........

If it is something that forces you to leave the screen, good,
but if it is something that just occupies your mind, it is a tough call, to stay and potentially make some money or leave anyway and save yourself from making a loss.

I like to trade "by hand" on top of my strategies and even though being fully aware of the facts, i still make the wrong call from time to time. Being aware of it, makes it even more annoying, as a youngster i would have just called it a bad day and kicked some dustbins. Now i kick myself, because i should have known better.


Locust


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Looking at the enormous move we have had in the equities, bonds, prec. metals and the US$, the analyst and papers are now talking about the year-end-rally, no investment alternatives and how far the markets might go..........

In my experience, the moment the crowd agrees on the direction, it will soon go the other way.
No point catching the falling knife or standing in front of the train, but for me the time to stand on the sidelines and wait for the signs.

The only buying opportunities out there at the moment are 6 month gamma/volatility and some US$ ( for some early christmas shopping :-)) )

In the meantime, going to work more on my "hft" ideas.


Locust


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Locust, I agree. A while back I posted a poll asking if the market would hit 900 before 1200 or something like that (its in the polls section). Majority of people said market will go lower first.

My feeling is if the majority of people are bearish, yet market is moving higher, then there is going to be a big short squeeze. I feel if their sentiment is bearish then they've already taken bearish-type action, and the market could not be pushed down, so that means the market will likely move higher.

But, I am not a fundamental trader, I trade what I see. It's just fun to speculate on the side.

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Fitting to my dooms day mood in the last days.
Some nice short setup today in CL and FDAX.


Locust


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Locust View Post
Fitting to my dooms day mood in the last days.
Some nice short setup today in CL and FDAX.


Locust


Your pattern(s) are clear(er) to me now Locust . I dont follow crude but thats trailing >200 ticks if Im not mistaken . A grand slam like that once in a while makes a big difference Im sure , nice .

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After hours of intense labour, finally the first steps into a higher trade frequencies.

Setup still a bit messy but promising enough to do some real money testing and clean up the charts......


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Locust View Post
After hours of intense labour, finally the first steps into a higher trade frequencies.

Setup still a bit messy but promising enough to do some real money testing and clean up the charts......


Locust


Is the trigger for your setups in panel 2, or not shown?

Mike

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Is the trigger for your setups in panel 2, or not shown?

Mike

Yes, it is pretty much panel 2 with a range around the osc. to filter some noise on the actual trading signals.
Just like to be able to see what I am programming before i make it clean again and have only the signals shown.
Even the osc. is only to verify the setups in the chart itself. The setup uses the close and open prices of the range bars.


Locust

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Locust View Post
After hours of intense labour, finally the first steps into a higher trade frequencies.

Setup still a bit messy but promising enough to do some real money testing and clean up the charts......


Locust


Have been asked if the HL LL etc are done by hand.
No, attached you can find the indicator code.


Locust
inputs:
LeftStrength( 3 ) ,
RightStrength( 3 ),
LookBackLength( 100 );

variable:
ID(-1),
Offset( 0 ) ,
HighValue1(0),
HighValue2(0),
LowValue1(0),
LowValue2(0);




Offset = .15 * Average( Range, 5 ) ;

if PivotHighVSBar( 1, High, LeftStrength, RightStrength, RightStrength + 1 ) <> -1 then
begin
HighValue1 = PivotHighVS(1, High, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );
HighValue2 = PivotHighVS(2, High, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );

if HighValue2 <> -1 and ( ( HighValue1 >= HighValue2 - Offset ) and ( HighValue1 <= HighValue2 + Offset ) ) then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "DT");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkyellow);

Value1 = 1;
end ;

if HighValue2 <> -1 and HighValue1 > HighValue2 and value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "HH");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkgreen);
end
else
if HighValue2 <> -1 and HighValue1 < HighValue2 and value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[Rightstrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "(LH)");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, Red);
end ;
Value1 = 0;
end ;

if PivotLowVSBar( 1, Low, LeftStrength, RightStrength, RightStrength + 1 ) <> -1 then
begin
LowValue1 = PivotLowVS(1, Low, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );
LowValue2 = PivotLowVS(2, Low, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );

if LowValue2 <> -1 and ( ( LowValue1 >= LowValue2 - Offset ) and ( LowValue1 <= LowValue2 + Offset ) ) then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "DB");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkyellow);

Value1 = 1;
end;

if LowValue2 <> -1 and LowValue1 < LowValue2 and Value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "LL");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, Red);
end
else

if LowValue2 <> -1 and LowValue1 > LowValue2 and Value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "(HL)");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkgreen);
end;
Value1 = 0;
end ;

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thanks for the hard work but some of us who are not technically inclined at all - would appriciate a zip coded file to use if possibale






Locust View Post
Have been asked if the HL LL etc are done by handNo, attached you can find the indicator code.


Locust
inputs:
LeftStrength( 3 ) ,
RightStrength( 3 ),
LookBackLength( 100 );

variable:
ID(-1),
Offset( 0 ) ,
HighValue1(0),
HighValue2(0),
LowValue1(0),
LowValue2(0);




Offset = .15 * Average( Range, 5 ) ;

if PivotHighVSBar( 1, High, LeftStrength, RightStrength, RightStrength + 1 ) <> -1 then
begin
HighValue1 = PivotHighVS(1, High, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );
HighValue2 = PivotHighVS(2, High, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );

if HighValue2 <> -1 and ( ( HighValue1 >= HighValue2 - Offset ) and ( HighValue1 <= HighValue2 + Offset ) ) then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "DT");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkyellow);

Value1 = 1;
end ;

if HighValue2 <> -1 and HighValue1 > HighValue2 and value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "HH");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkgreen);
end
else
if HighValue2 <> -1 and HighValue1 < HighValue2 and value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[Rightstrength], High[RightStrength] + Offset, "(LH)");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 1 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, Red);
end ;
Value1 = 0;
end ;

if PivotLowVSBar( 1, Low, LeftStrength, RightStrength, RightStrength + 1 ) <> -1 then
begin
LowValue1 = PivotLowVS(1, Low, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );
LowValue2 = PivotLowVS(2, Low, Leftstrength, RightStrength, LookBackLength );

if LowValue2 <> -1 and ( ( LowValue1 >= LowValue2 - Offset ) and ( LowValue1 <= LowValue2 + Offset ) ) then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "DB");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkyellow);

Value1 = 1;
end;

if LowValue2 <> -1 and LowValue1 < LowValue2 and Value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "LL");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, Red);
end
else

if LowValue2 <> -1 and LowValue1 > LowValue2 and Value1 = 0 then
begin
ID = Text_New(Date[RightStrength], Time[RightStrength], Low[RightStrength] - Offset, "(HL)");
Text_SetStyle(ID, 2, 0 ) ;
Text_SetColor(ID, darkgreen);
end;
Value1 = 0;
end ;


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bizman70 View Post
thanks for the hard work but some of us who are not technically inclined at all - would appriciate a zip coded file to use if possibale

Here you go, thought it would be easier just to copy/paste.

Locust

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Locust View Post
Here you go, thought it would be easier just to copy/paste.

Locust


I think Bizman looking for nt code, anyone have time to translate to nt?

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Locust,

You may take a look at this thread:


I am a price action trader and use HH+HL, LH+LL all day in my trading. I like it better than using any variation of Swing Temp or the normal functions, as those functions are delayed by a few bars whereas the CCI Pivots produce very similar results with 0 bar delay. Really it's just about visuals, you don't need something telling you where a HH is, so its a matter of personal taste. Let me know if you like it, the pla is posted there.

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i will have to wait for someone to code or make available the zip file for ninja 6.5 of the HH indicator from locus or the cci pivots that mike talked about

thanks



vegasfoster View Post
I think Bizman looking for nt code, anyone have time to translate to nt?


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Nice GC trade yesterday, CL average....

Locust



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a nice cl day after all.


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a tripple......


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Still don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Are you planning to tell us a little about your set up or did I miss anything?

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jb004 View Post
Still don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Are you planning to tell us a little about your set up or did I miss anything?

Hi there,

it is mainly for myself !
If somebody wants to discuss what and how i am doing things, i am always willing to chat about it.


Locust

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Never had a run like this !!!!!

Locust


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OK


are you trading on price levels or on the basis of an indi? Are you trading on a specific time frame?

BTW I like your charts.

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jb004 View Post
OK


are you trading on price levels or on the basis of an indi? Are you trading on a specific time frame?

BTW I like your charts.

It´s a chart pattern. It works on every timeframe where the bar produces a definable open, high, low, close.
So normally 5 minute charts upwards.

I usually trade intraday on 30 minutes, less trades and less hassle.
I enter on the open of the bar after the signal and trail the high/low of the previous bar.

No indicators, just the bars.


Locust


PS: I only take trades, between 0800 and 2200 (european hours)

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  #60 (permalink)
Las Vegas, NV
 
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aligator's Avatar
 
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Thanks for posting your trades. After many years of trading I also came to conclusion that the best indicator is the price and the best setups are the simple price patterns. Any other indicator is simply history. I am trading a variation of the "Clear Method" with success and was glad to see someone finally wrote about it in a recent TASC issue. A couple of questions:

Is it possible for you to describe your pattern and the setup so that we can program it for NT7?
Are you using Trade Navigator for your charting? If so, can you make your Template and associated indicators available?

Keep up the good work!

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  #61 (permalink)
las vegas
 
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aligator View Post
I am trading a variation of the "Clear Method" with success and was glad to see someone finally wrote about it in a recent TASC issue.

I downloaded an indicator off of Richard's blog, but really haven't looked at it too much. My search hasn't turned up very much, can I ask where you learned about it? Thanks.

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  #62 (permalink)
the coin hunter
virginia
 
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I downloaded an indicator off of Richard's blog, but really haven't looked at it too much. My search hasn't turned up very much, can I ask where you learned about it? Thanks.

TRADERS&rsquo; TIPS - September 2010

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  #63 (permalink)
Germany
 
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Locust's Avatar
 
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Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all of them comes to £100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes and claim State benefits, it would go something like this;

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.” Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men; the paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody’s share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So the bar owner suggested a different system.
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.
The sixth man paid £2 instead of £3.
The seventh paid £5 instead of £7.
The eighth paid £9 instead of £12.
The ninth paid £14 instead of £18.
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59.

Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got £10!”

“Yes, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a £1 too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The rich get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new system exploits the poor!”

So, the nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

Funnily enough, the next week the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him.

But when it came to pay for their drinks, they discovered something important – they didn’t have enough money between all of them to pay for even half the bill.

That’s how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes do tend to get the most benefit from tax reliefs and reductions. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Locust

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  #64 (permalink)
Holland, Michigan
 
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Locust View Post
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all of them comes to £100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes and claim State benefits, it would go something like this;

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.” Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men; the paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody’s share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So the bar owner suggested a different system.
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.
The sixth man paid £2 instead of £3.
The seventh paid £5 instead of £7.
The eighth paid £9 instead of £12.
The ninth paid £14 instead of £18.
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59.

Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got £10!”

“Yes, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a £1 too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The rich get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new system exploits the poor!”

So, the nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

Funnily enough, the next week the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him.

But when it came to pay for their drinks, they discovered something important – they didn’t have enough money between all of them to pay for even half the bill.

That’s how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes do tend to get the most benefit from tax reliefs and reductions. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

That my friend says it all. Nothing left to say.

Rick

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  #65 (permalink)
Malaysia
 
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Does it work with Ninja 7

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  #66 (permalink)
San Diego
 
 
Posts: 14 since Dec 2009
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Locust View Post
.....

That’s how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes do tend to get the most benefit from tax reliefs and reductions. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

As an update to this story, the new bartender (Obama) came by and announced that the price of beer would be going up by £10 to cover additional 'expenses.' Since the richest man received the majority of the savings, the first 9 men decided that the simplest solution would be for the rich man increase his share from £49 back to £59. After all, that was the amount he had been willing to pay prior to the reduction in the cost of beer.

If the rich man did not leave the first time, he definitely will this time. How many times does he have to get beaten up? Well, either that or everyone will suddenly stop drinking beer and start drinking tea.

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  #67 (permalink)
UK
 
 
Posts: 1 since May 2010
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Locust View Post
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all of them comes to £100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes and claim State benefits, it would go something like this;

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.” Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men; the paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody’s share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So the bar owner suggested a different system.
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.
The sixth man paid £2 instead of £3.
The seventh paid £5 instead of £7.
The eighth paid £9 instead of £12.
The ninth paid £14 instead of £18.
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59.

Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got £10!”

“Yes, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a £1 too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The rich get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new system exploits the poor!”

So, the nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

Funnily enough, the next week the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him.

But when it came to pay for their drinks, they discovered something important – they didn’t have enough money between all of them to pay for even half the bill.

That’s how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes do tend to get the most benefit from tax reliefs and reductions. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

What you forgot to mention is that the 10th man was in fact the bar owner, and he had a very creative accountant...

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  #68 (permalink)
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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zzoom View Post
What you forgot to mention is that the 10th man was in fact the bar owner, and he had a very creative accountant...

Yes. And the 'BEER' didn't actually go up. It went down in cost, but the Patrons believed the Bartender.

This is a socio-political statement and from my perspective if EVERYONE started with the same playing field and same physical and mental ability then taxes should be even across the board.

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  #69 (permalink)
Las Vegas, NV
 
Experience: Advanced
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aligator's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,424 since Aug 2010
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No worry, the 10th man will show up again, after all he is the only one who can afford more drinks. He is a wealthoholic - very much like an alcoholic looking for another drink - he is looking for more wealth and will only show up where there is potential for gains. Heck, he might even buy the brewery and sell his beer on credit to those who can't afford it. He is not worry at all if everyone default, his buddies in the "Friends of the Beer Makers Association" will buy all his empty bottles at filled value (at the expense of the unborn alcoholics) and give them back to him for free to refill. He should love to buy drinks for alcoholics as he aquire more breweries.

Happy Holidays to All....

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