NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





MAE - increase R or win rate ?


Discussion in Trading Journals

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one yosim with 3 posts (1 thanks)
    2. looks_two SidewalkAerobics with 2 posts (2 thanks)
    3. looks_3 kevinkdog with 1 posts (4 thanks)
    4. looks_4 kanepa with 1 posts (3 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one kevinkdog with 4 thanks per post
    2. looks_two kanepa with 3 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 AllSeeker with 2 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 bobwest with 2 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 1,589 views
    2. thumb_up 14 thanks given
    3. group 3 followers
    1. forum 7 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




 
Search this Thread

MAE - increase R or win rate ?

  #1 (permalink)
yosim
Ireland
 
Posts: 3 since Jun 2020
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 1

Hi all, first post so go easy !

over a backtest of 50 trades I calculated my MAE in pips and found the following:

20 trades were winners
in 12 of these 20 trades I did not go greater than 50% into my stop (in 8 I did)

30 trades were losers
in 5 of these trades they went more than 50% past my stop but turned out to be winning trades

For the winners I think I can tighten up my stop, right?

Also noticed that my on average I was cutting my winners early, I could theoretically have gotten an average R of 3 instead of 2

So should I stick to a fixed R (I aim for 2)

Or aim for more R and therefore improve my expectancy?

Am I analysing this correctly? Finding it a bit confusing now that I look at it, it feels like I can maximise this system

Are 50 trades enough data?

a lot of questions, hopefully someone can shed some light on this ....thank you!

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
Pivot Indicator like the old SwingTemp by Big Mike
NinjaTrader
REcommedations for programming help
Sierra Chart
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
NexusFi Journal Challenge - May 2024
Feedback and Announcements
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
48 thanks
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
34 thanks
Bigger Wins or Fewer Losses?
24 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
22 thanks
  #2 (permalink)
 SidewalkAerobics 
Los Angels
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiChart
Trading: Emini ES
Posts: 115 since Aug 2018
Thanks Given: 173
Thanks Received: 71


yosim View Post
Hi all, first post so go easy !

over a backtest of 50 trades I calculated my MAE in pips and found the following:

Are 50 trades enough data?

50 trades are a lot of work to calculate without coding your strategy.

But, 50 trades are not a large enough sample size to judge a strategy.

I find a walkforward test will be accurate to the back test for about 1% to 10% of the number tested in the back test. For example, if I backtest 10 years, I would only expect the strategy to work for 1-12 months in the future.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #3 (permalink)
yosim
Ireland
 
Posts: 3 since Jun 2020
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 1



SidewalkAerobics View Post
50 trades are a lot of work to calculate without coding your strategy.

But, 50 trades are not a large enough sample size to judge a strategy.

I find a walkforward test will be accurate to the back test for about 1% to 10% of the number tested in the back test. For example, if I backtest 10 years, I would only expect the strategy to work for 1-12 months in the future.

Thanks! Looks like I need to research backtesting some more

Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)
 
AllSeeker's Avatar
 AllSeeker 
Mumbai, India
Legendary Pratik_4Clover
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: TradingView & ZerodhaKite
Trading: NIFTY, BANKNIFTY
Frequency: Daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 1,424 since Jan 2019
Thanks Given: 5,249
Thanks Received: 5,012

Just my 2c with first glance with what you have posted.

Although 50 trades is a really low sample size, but something to consider here is that "even if you did move your stop further away by 50%+, it will still give you only 5 more profitable trades, which is 25 out of 50, a only 50% win rate"
And I might add that even if you did get R:R of 2, it probably wont be enough to cover your total cost here.

Primary concern in this strategy might not just be your stop loss, this doesn't really have any edge.

But this is just first impression, only you know better.

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #5 (permalink)
yosim
Ireland
 
Posts: 3 since Jun 2020
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 1


LastDino View Post
Just my 2c with first glance with what you have posted.

Although 50 trades is a really low sample size, but something to consider here is that "even if you did move your stop further away by 50%+, it will still give you only 5 more profitable trades, which is 25 out of 50, a only 50% win rate"
And I might add that even if you did get R:R of 2, it probably wont be enough to cover your total cost here.

Primary concern in this strategy might not just be your stop loss, this doesn't really have any edge.

But this is just first impression, only you know better.

Hi, as far as I'm aware a trading strategy doesn't need to have a win rate of over 50% to be profitable, just as long as the expectancy is positive, which it seems to be on this strategy, thanks

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 3,664 since Jul 2012
Thanks Given: 1,892
Thanks Received: 7,359

I see a lot of people doing this sort of thing (using MAE/MFE to go back on tweak their strategy). All you are doing is creating a better backtest result, and fooling yourself into thinking you have made the system beTter.

Be VERY careful if you do this...

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)
 
bobwest's Avatar
 bobwest 
Western Florida
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: ES, YM
Frequency: Several times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 8,168 since Jan 2013
Thanks Given: 57,468
Thanks Received: 26,279


LastDino View Post
Although 50 trades is a really low sample size, but something to consider here is that "even if you did move your stop further away by 50%+, it will still give you only 5 more profitable trades, which is 25 out of 50, a only 50% win rate"


yosim View Post
Hi, as far as I'm aware a trading strategy doesn't need to have a win rate of over 50% to be profitable, just as long as the expectancy is positive, which it seems to be on this strategy, thanks

Correct, at least as far as win rate vs. expectancy goes. Win rate by itself is essentially unimportant, or actually, an incomplete measurement. Expectancy, which is essentially your average trade P/L, is what matters.

Example: Assume a strategy with only a 30% win rate, but 100% average profit in the winning trades, and 10% average loss in the losing trades.

So, out of 100 trades, each of $1,000, you have 30 wins at $1,000 profit each, equals plus $30,000, and 70 losses at $100 loss each, equals minus $7,000. Net is plus $23,000, less fees and commissions. If this is maintained consistently, this trader will be rich. (It won't ever be this extreme, of course, just an example to illustrate the point.) Just knowing win percent by itself is not helpful.

----------------


kevinkdog View Post
I see a lot of people doing this sort of thing (using MAE/MFE to go back on tweak their strategy). All you are doing is creating a better backtest result, and fooling yourself into thinking you have made the system beTter.

Be VERY careful if you do this...

This is the important thing. Excessively fitting your strategy to your past data just means it will be perfect if the exact same past events happen once again, in the same order. They won't, unfortunately.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #8 (permalink)
 kanepa 
philadelphia pa
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: es
Posts: 202 since Jul 2017
Thanks Given: 348
Thanks Received: 409


yosim View Post
Hi all, first post so go easy !

over a backtest of 50 trades I calculated my MAE in pips and found the following:

20 trades were winners
in 12 of these 20 trades I did not go greater than 50% into my stop (in 8 I did)

30 trades were losers
in 5 of these trades they went more than 50% past my stop but turned out to be winning trades

For the winners I think I can tighten up my stop, right?

Also noticed that my on average I was cutting my winners early, I could theoretically have gotten an average R of 3 instead of 2

So should I stick to a fixed R (I aim for 2)

Or aim for more R and therefore improve my expectancy?

Am I analysing this correctly? Finding it a bit confusing now that I look at it, it feels like I can maximise this system

Are 50 trades enough data?

a lot of questions, hopefully someone can shed some light on this ....thank you!

Optimizing and tweak numbers to fit past data is a good start but 50 trades are not enough. Unless 50 trades were produced in past 15 years or so covering 08. 09 and rest of bull market condition. If you are working on intraday. You need more sample imo.

Great points here by others but as long as system shows positive expectation over good period of time, you can optimize it but in my experience, more tradable system in real world, always looked worse than over fitted, optimized system.

Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote




Last Updated on November 6, 2020


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts