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My MES Live Account Journal (OneUp)

  #111 (permalink)
 binaryduke 
London UK
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, CL, GC, ZB
Posts: 34 since Jun 2015


Courage View Post
Does anyone know if when you're funded with LeeLoo does your orders appear in the live dom?

I'm interested to understand why people are concerned whether a funded account from a trading evaluator operates in a sim or live environment.

A sim account means that the evaluator has a financial liability if the trader is profitable and no liability if they are not.
A live account means that the evaluator has a financial liability if the trader is not profitable and no liability if they are.

From the trader's perspective, so long as the trading evaluator is solvent and honours their contractual obligations to meet profit withdrawal requests, what difference? I don't think the lack of the newly-funded trader's 1-2 lots is going to make a difference to the supply and demand in the market and make the trader's hoped-for move any more or less likely

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  #112 (permalink)
 tr8er 
Europe
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeNavigator, BookMap
Trading: ES, CL, 6E, 6B
Posts: 704 since Jan 2017
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You are right, it doesn't make a huge difference, but if you are a bonds/notes scalper and go for 1 or 2 ticks, there is a huge difference, because the SIM account doesn't have the logic of FIFO.

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  #113 (permalink)
 
matthew28's Avatar
 matthew28 
United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Bookmap
Broker: Stage 5, Rithmic
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
Posts: 1,250 since Sep 2013
Thanks Given: 3,500
Thanks Received: 2,532


Agree with Tr8er's point about scalping. If the platform required price to go through a level before filling you that could be a disadvantage. I remember some of the older platforms used to fill you on the first touch of a level, optimistic fills rather than the pessimistic fill Tr8er describes. Optimistic sim fills would be like finding the HolyGrail if you actually got paid real money on the profits. Bring back the old platforms! .


binaryduke View Post
From the trader's perspective, so long as the trading evaluator is solvent and honours their contractual obligations to meet profit withdrawal requests, what difference?

Psychologically I think this could be an advantage. You complete your Combine/Gauntlet/test (an intermediate step between sim and live), then you go 'live' where you get to keep any profit but know that you can't lose any of your own money, but also know that if it goes badly you also don't lose any money for the people who you want to be funding you. So another intermediate step to trading live with real risk rather than the traditional zero risk sim, full risk live.

You do not win as a trader, you just get to play again the next day. If that game doesn’t appeal to you then you should not trade. Gary Norden
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  #114 (permalink)
Courage
LA CA
 
Posts: 29 since Feb 2019
Thanks Given: 2
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binaryduke View Post
I'm interested to understand why people are concerned whether a funded account from a trading evaluator operates in a sim or live environment.

A sim account means that the evaluator has a financial liability if the trader is profitable and no liability if they are not.
A live account means that the evaluator has a financial liability if the trader is not profitable and no liability if they are.

From the trader's perspective, so long as the trading evaluator is solvent and honours their contractual obligations to meet profit withdrawal requests, what difference? I don't think the lack of the newly-funded trader's 1-2 lots is going to make a difference to the supply and demand in the market and make the trader's hoped-for move any more or less likely

Incentive, With all these shady info, rules, terms, contracts etc a simple test on if there is skin in the game for the prop firm will weed out the bs. As if you make money in the sim obviously the prop firm loses money, and I dont want to deal with someone who has the opposite interest. Whereas if its a live market and trader wins, the prop firm wins 20% too. Also These companies are not public so solvency is not known, but, if your orders show up live, who cares about solvency as the money is from the exchange not the prop firm.

There are many reason more, the reality is if its not a big deal, why doesn't oneup clarify the funded sim/live info, instead you find them saying the exchange "fees are covered by the funding partners. " really, exchange fees for a sim :/

Now im not saying anyone is not legit, also there could be great reason why they are not open about it. But for me personally, where free time is scarce, I would rather work with someone on the same page/incentives as me as there will be less ulterior motives and worry to think about

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  #115 (permalink)
 
sstheo's Avatar
 sstheo 
Holladay, Utah, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: MES, MYM, MNQ, M2K
Posts: 285 since Oct 2012
Thanks Given: 198
Thanks Received: 1,490

MES supposedly goes fully "live" after a trader has reached the "reserve" threshold. I was at $4,800 on my live account when the threshold was $3,500 and the DOM still was not registering. Maybe the live DOM threshold was $5,000. I will try it again when I get back up there. (Struggling a bit right now after trying multiple small shorts on last week's relentless rocket ride to the moon on the indicies.)

LeeLoo says that once live the account is fully funded live with Dorman. One of the guys in our chat room just passed the LeeLoo trial, so we should have some data soon.

(If you want a really great chat room, PM me)

-Steve

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  #116 (permalink)
 
sstheo's Avatar
 sstheo 
Holladay, Utah, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: MES, MYM, MNQ, M2K
Posts: 285 since Oct 2012
Thanks Given: 198
Thanks Received: 1,490


sstheo View Post
MES supposedly goes fully "live" after a trader has reached the "reserve" threshold. I was at $4,800 on my live account when the threshold was $3,500 and the DOM still was not registering. Maybe the live DOM threshold was $5,000. I will try it again when I get back up there. (Struggling a bit right now after trying multiple small shorts on last week's relentless rocket ride to the moon on the indicies.)

LeeLoo says that once live the account is fully funded live with Dorman. One of the guys in our chat room just passed the LeeLoo trial, so we should have some data soon.

(If you want a really great chat room, PM me)

-Steve

Regarding MES, I just found an official communication regarding the issue from MES to a trader who shared it in the OneUp chat room.

"They reside on our server/exchange if placed through R Trader or R-Trader Pro. If through a third-party platform the oco functionality portion could be on your local side but the orders will be on the server/exchange. As far as the cue, we have subaccounts and a master account where all traders trade into their subaccount. To protect from disaster as well as for compliance reasons, all traders have access only to their subaccount because we can't rely on the stability of their connections, internet, and history of their trading with us. This is also mainly done because we have an overriding risk desk, where we can jump in on the master account if they are uncomfortable with their exposure or not cohesive with our underlying market model. As your contract specifies, the risk manager has the discretion to flip execution from sim to live and vice versa at any point of the day or week, etc. You will be paid out based on your performance no matter which environment profit or loss is made on."

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  #117 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 75
Thanks Received: 92


sstheo View Post
Thank you to those who are following my MES Journal. I have THREE big announcements:

1) New $150k live account. I have had so much success with my $50k account that I decided I wanted to qualify for an upgrade to a $150k MES account which would let me trade with 15 contracts and have a larger daily draw down to give me more breathing room. So I jumped in with a 40% discount code from OneUp for having a live MES account. I am happy to report that after 3 weeks of trading (the minimum), I just met the $9,000 goal on Friday on the 15th trading day with $9,005. I should be live with a new $150k account by Wed or Thu next week and will start reporting on this new live account.

p.s. If you try the evaluation, please give yourself 30, 60, or 90 trading days to reach the goal instead of just 15 days (which is the minimum). 30 days would be $300 or 6% per day (based on the $5,000 max draw down allowed), 60 days would be $150 or 3% per day, and 90 days would be $100 or 1.5% per day. The best hedge funds in the world can't sustain 1% per day. So be kind to yourself, and take your time.

2) Referral. If you have found my journal to be helpful, please let things flow back this way a bit. OneUp has started a referral program. I can't post the link here, but if you PM me privately, I will give you a link to sign up, and OneUp will give me a referral fee. There is no extra cost to you.

3) Free trader chat room. There are about 10 great traders in a FREE Slack.com chat room that I started for funded (or previously funded) traders. We meet daily, especially during the first two hours of the NY session. I have talked with my co-host, and we have decided to open it up to ALL traders who have ever been funded by OneUp/MES, TopStep, OR any other trader who feels they have reached some level of competence and thinks they have something to add. We are not going to turn anyone away, but we do discuss some advanced concepts and don't want anyone to be lost; so if you have been trading for less than one year, please keep learning and PM me when you feel you are ready. In the room people do call out trades at times, but the room is much more than a "free trade" room. (BTW, following someone else's trades can be a very risky thing! Everything is at your own risk!). We are brothers and sisters in the battle to remain profitable. We rejoice in each others successes and console after the bad trades (we all have them). We toss in some humor. We try to keep the language clean. We have fun for sure. PLEASE JOIN US. PM me for the link.

Steve

Do you think One Up would be worth it if I can only trade on Wednesdays-Fridays?

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  #118 (permalink)
 
sstheo's Avatar
 sstheo 
Holladay, Utah, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: MES, MYM, MNQ, M2K
Posts: 285 since Oct 2012
Thanks Given: 198
Thanks Received: 1,490


techa View Post
Do you think One Up would be worth it if I can only trade on Wednesdays-Fridays?

Yes.

But I will go out on a limb here--

Unless you are consistently making good trades on a sim account, then I recommend the following 3 steps first:

1) Take OneUp's 14 day free trial and get really used to the setup. OR take LeeLoo's 10 day trial. For a while, the LeeLoo trial may still offer a truly free step to a live account without paying anything.

2) Once you have done that, then if you don't already have a live brokerage account at Amp or Ninja (or another) then I recommend you put $500 in a new live brokerage account. Now, trade the MES, MNQ, or MYM micro contracts. Trade just ONE contract at a time until you can make $30 per day on average. (That's like $300/day on the Emini's.) Trust me, the current volatility will let you get this in just a few trades! This is for good solid practice, at 1/10 the size so you will not kill your account too soon. Even though the risk is low though, your purpose is PRACTICE to prepare you for the Emini's which are 10x as big.

3) If you want to take your live micro-account and grow it to $2,000 over the course of a couple months, I do recommend this path. Once you get to $2,000 then you can skip OneUp, TST, LeeLoo, Earn2Trade and many others and just build your account naturally. NOW you can trade the Emini's ONE contract at a time. Once you build it to $4,000 you can try TWO contracts at time. You are now trading the equivalent of the OneUp/MES $25,000 account! They only let you trade two contracts to start!


But if you want to blaze ahead and go for glory though, you can do OneUp Wednesday through Friday and succeed easily. Just give yourself 2 months to reach the evaluation goal for whatever sized account you opt to trade. Speaking of which, I recommend at least $100k, if not $150k. These give you a bigger max drawdown to play with in case you have a few bad days. Stay at just 1 or 2 contracts for a LONG time until your confidence is way up.

Leeloo is a great new alternative. Check them out. They have fewer rules, and some traders like that. I kind of like the rules on MES that keep me safe (must be flat on some news releases, no holding into the close, must scale number of contracts). LeeLoo has max loss rules, but that is about it. Wed through Fri should be okay with them too.

We now have 30 members of our chat room. If you have at least a year of trading experience, we'd love to have you. PM me for the link.

-Steve

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  #119 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks Given: 75
Thanks Received: 92


sstheo View Post
Yes.

But I will go out on a limb here--

Unless you are consistently making good trades on a sim account, then I recommend the following 3 steps first:

1) Take OneUp's 14 day free trial and get really used to the setup. OR take LeeLoo's 10 day trial. For a while, the LeeLoo trial may still offer a truly free step to a live account without paying anything.

2) Once you have done that, then if you don't already have a live brokerage account at Amp or Ninja (or another) then I recommend you put $500 in a new live brokerage account. Now, trade the MES, MNQ, or MYM micro contracts. Trade just ONE contract at a time until you can make $30 per day on average. (That's like $300/day on the Emini's.) Trust me, the current volatility will let you get this in just a few trades! This is for good solid practice, at 1/10 the size so you will not kill your account too soon. Even though the risk is low though, your purpose is PRACTICE to prepare you for the Emini's which are 10x as big.

3) If you want to take your live micro-account and grow it to $2,000 over the course of a couple months, I do recommend this path. Once you get to $2,000 then you can skip OneUp, TST, LeeLoo, Earn2Trade and many others and just build your account naturally. NOW you can trade the Emini's ONE contract at a time. Once you build it to $4,000 you can try TWO contracts at time. You are now trading the equivalent of the OneUp/MES $25,000 account! They only let you trade two contracts to start!


But if you want to blaze ahead and go for glory though, you can do OneUp Wednesday through Friday and succeed easily. Just give yourself 2 months to reach the evaluation goal for whatever sized account you opt to trade. Speaking of which, I recommend at least $100k, if not $150k. These give you a bigger max drawdown to play with in case you have a few bad days. Stay at just 1 or 2 contracts for a LONG time until your confidence is way up.

Leeloo is a great new alternative. Check them out. They have fewer rules, and some traders like that. I kind of like the rules on MES that keep me safe (must be flat on some news releases, no holding into the close, must scale number of contracts). LeeLoo has max loss rules, but that is about it. Wed through Fri should be okay with them too.

We now have 30 members of our chat room. If you have at least a year of trading experience, we'd love to have you. PM me for the link.

-Steve

Wow Steve, I really appreciate your advice! I paper traded ES for about 8 months and when the MES became available I funded a 3k account and thought I could trade it the same (I used to paper trade after lunch with mostly two contracts). I have found that scalping MES with one contract after fees was not working at all like the ES. (Then I was advised to trade mornings and leave wider stops of 20 or so ticks with wider profit targets). That just dug my hole deeper and faster. Maybe shooting for a more reasonable target will help.

I also noticed you and another trader talking about getting out as soon as you start seeing the trade going against you. I was not doing that either, so back to paper with some new ideas. But I think taking the free trials may be helpful. I'm tempted to defund my account and use that money to pay for One Up or Leeloo month by month to see if I can even make it to a paid account. It gets a little scary seeing so many people after trading for years not being profitable. Once I get more experience behind me, I'll try the chat room. For now I'm afraid I would be of little help to others lol.


Thanks again for your suggestions!

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  #120 (permalink)
 
sstheo's Avatar
 sstheo 
Holladay, Utah, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: MES, MYM, MNQ, M2K
Posts: 285 since Oct 2012
Thanks Given: 198
Thanks Received: 1,490



techa View Post
Wow Steve, I really appreciate your advice! I paper traded ES for about 8 months and when the MES became available I funded a 3k account and thought I could trade it the same (I used to paper trade after lunch with mostly two contracts). I have found that scalping MES with one contract after fees was not working at all like the ES. (Then I was advised to trade mornings and leave wider stops of 20 or so ticks with wider profit targets). That just dug my hole deeper and faster. Maybe shooting for a more reasonable target will help.

I also noticed you and another trader talking about getting out as soon as you start seeing the trade going against you. I was not doing that either, so back to paper with some new ideas. But I think taking the free trials may be helpful. I'm tempted to defund my account and use that money to pay for One Up or Leeloo month by month to see if I can even make it to a paid account. It gets a little scary seeing so many people after trading for years not being profitable. Once I get more experience behind me, I'll try the chat room. For now I'm afraid I would be of little help to others lol.


Thanks again for your suggestions!

The micros indeed have more slippage and significantly more transaction costs (about 50% higher). But they are good vehicles to get some practice under LIVE conditions. But the goal is strictly to get to the regular Emini's asap.

You must find a system that works for you to be profitable. The fact that you are on FIO suggests that you have had SOME success in the past. I really think you should save your money and get on SIM until you feel you have an edge and can add 50% to the account balance of the sim account. There is no point in spending any more money on anything until you can see a path before you. Once you increase the balance on the sim to 50% higher, then you will be ready. (As long as you do it through consistent growth and don't take too much risk.) Try to add 2% to the balance each day.

Alternatively, I think you could try to do this (which would approximate what I am doing), which is scalping... Get back on the micros and use only 1 contract, and try to safely make $20 per day. If you lose $40, then STOP for the day. Shoot for $5 targets. Use $10 emergency stops but try to get out even faster if you sense things starting to fall apart on the trade.

If instead you prefer to really let things run in a trend, then use two time frames and only short if the larger timeframe is down, and only go long if the larger timeframe is up. A simple MA cross system can get you in trouble if you are not careful, but you can experiment with this and Support and Resitance lines.

Finally, start watching lots of videos on YouTube and here on FIO. There are hundreds of great traders willing to share their knowledge without trying to sell you something. Find that edge.

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