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How I Trade For a Living
Started:August 30th, 2016 (10:48 AM) by rocksolid68 Views / Replies:48,683 / 662
Last Reply:November 7th, 2016 (02:55 PM) Attachments:94

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How I Trade For a Living

Old October 16th, 2016, 11:23 AM   #331 (permalink)
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fiftyeight View Post
Thanks for the replies and everything is taken on board.

I currently trade a small account so I am learning how damaging big swings can be.

I was not suggesting that someone should trade this way



More assessing if the combine will work for me. I have been reading reviews recently and quite a few reviews have mentioned that the possibility of extra size is not worth the effort. A few different reasons are given but include that with the max draw down you should not be trading 15 contracts anyway.

If I take the $150k combine so I can trade 2 or 3 contracts I am not sure I see much value. I will have to achieve $9k profit in sim mode which would be much better in my own account without the fees and rules. That $9k profit will give me enough bankroll to add another contract to my current size.

Perfectly reasonable.

Some factors I would suggest thinking about include:

1. Realistically, how good are you at trading you own account now? By "trading," I mean live.

2. Again realistically, what size account can you manage, recognizing the need for a decent-sized cushion against loss?

3. Would having someone else initially put up the money make it an easier effort for you?

4. Would having someone else take the risk of actual loss of capital make it a better deal for you?

There may be others, but you see the point -- if you don't need the backing, and if you are already good enough (consistent enough and profitable enough), then why go with TST at all? Otherwise, maybe so.

Actually, I can see that a very good trader might want to trade with them anyway, on the assumption that he could quickly run up his account so he could be trading a good size, without ever risking his own money. (As you show more profitability, you can request more contracts to trade, so you're not stuck at your Combine level.)

So it's all a matter of your situation and your weighing of the benefits. There are people who use the TST funded account as a stepping-stone, first learning to trade in the Combine, then graduating to the funded account, then pulling out some profit and putting it into their own account, and going on from there.

There are also those who just say, why not use someone else's (free) money, and trade the same in both accounts, doubling the impact?

There are some who say they don't want to trade by the TST rules, a reasonable point if the rules don't fit your style.

There are many ways to parse it. It all depends on how it makes the most sense to you.

Bob.

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #332 (permalink)
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Wooops

Definitely did not intend to come across as know it all or a big talker. I am 100% a newb with MANY MANY things to learn, hence the dumb questions about if I should attempt a combine. I have plenty more dumb questions.

@ Rocksolid68 Re my $9k profit comment. It was a big IF I can make $9k, my tiny account could use the additional funds haha

I will keep pondering before I decide either way

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 11:53 AM   #333 (permalink)
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@bobwest

You said above: "There are also those who just say, why not use someone else's (free) money, and trade the same in both accounts, doubling the impact?"

Wonder about the free:


You have to pay to join the program.
How many people did apply,paid and started it and how many of those ever got funded? How many of the funded ever took withdraw profits?

I find the business model of TST fascinating.

I will estimate thousands of people paid for the "option" to be funded. The some (few? no-one really knows besides TST)) that did make it despite all the restrictions and the 2 levels of testing, the TST risk is limited to around $2000 a funded trader.

Therefore, for every funded trader that the company carries a 2K risk, they need less than 20 wanna be funded traders to be even. If the ration of signup for the system to a fully funded is 100:1 (I doubt it, as so many I know took it for more than once, so it maybe even 1000 fees paid ratio to 1 funded trader) I wish I would own it. I would care less for the profit splits with the trader (as they even offer the first 5K all to trader...) and just sell the chance to be funded again and again and again.

I love it.

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:48 PM   #334 (permalink)
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EDGE...

@rocksolid68 Exactly right Alex. What I am wondering is if folks believe they have "edge" in the markets and if the do believe it, what is it they would characterize as their edge.

As a NASDAQ market maker I had edge. I was "the book" I traded significant "paper" (retail flow) I participated within the professional community at a very high level. There was a shit ton of edge in all forms. Hell, the spread was often 1/2 or 3/8...huge edge.

As a "local" CBOE market maker, again tons of edge back in the day, multiple sources too.

As an off the floor retail time framer (day trader) there is only one viable source of edge...extremely subjective...my accumulated personal experience. By no means is mine "the best" or even good, compared to others that have deeper experience or are just smarter than I am.

That is to say as far as the retail directional speculator (which is not really "trading") that the concept of "edge" is fleeting...less and less demonstrable. So we develop these methodologies based on price action or a confluence of non co-linear technical indicators, we apply "rules" to some extent to govern our actions. I'm saying that none of this is actually "edge".

What do people believe is their trading edge and why do you think that?

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 01:12 PM   #335 (permalink)
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IzhakHaim View Post
@bobwest

You said above: "There are also those who just say, why not use someone else's (free) money, and trade the same in both accounts, doubling the impact?"

Wonder about the free:


You have to pay to join the program.
How many people did apply,paid and started it and how many of those ever got funded? How many of the funded ever took withdraw profits?

I find the business model of TST fascinating.

I will estimate thousands of people paid for the "option" to be funded. The some (few? no-one really knows besides TST)) that did make it despite all the restrictions and the 2 levels of testing, the TST risk is limited to around $2000 a funded trader.

Therefore, for every funded trader that the company carries a 2K risk, they need less than 20 wanna be funded traders to be even. If the ration of signup for the system to a fully funded is 100:1 (I doubt it, as so many I know took it for more than once, so it maybe even 1000 fees paid ratio to 1 funded trader) I wish I would own it. I would care less for the profit splits with the trader (as they even offer the first 5K all to trader...) and just sell the chance to be funded again and again and again.

I love it.

Well, I don't want to get into the "it's all a rip-off" theme, pro or con. There are people who think so. Obviously, there's nothing there for you, if that's how you size it up. Time to move on, then.

"You pays yer money and you takes yer choice...."

I used to get into these back-and-forths in the various TST threads, but I've sworn off them, both for my health and to conserve my time. Everyone has an opinion, which is fine with me.

Also, it's Alex's thread, and I'm writing too much here lately.

He might tell you if it was worthwhile for him. Isn't that the point? But here I am, getting into the question again.... I'll bow out if it now.

Bob.

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 01:34 PM   #336 (permalink)
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Guys...

@bobwest

I sometimes break it down like this: There are pundits and there are players.

Pundits are guys that talk about it. Players are guys that do it.

In my mind the difference is abundantly clear. Yet I know many players, guys that are still killing it trading, that have switched over to the "bullshit game"...that is pundit side, by offering a product or service for sale.

I can't, nor do I try very hard to figure that out. I do not understand the notion that if I guy has a goose that lays golden eggs...why he would sell the goose or even tell you where he keeps it. I do not buy for a second the idea that a guy that makes, or can make, $10,000 before 10 am four days out of every five will stick around and field phone calls from you, or review your trades, or teach you his methods until the end of regular business hours in exchange for even $1,000 a month.

Think about it, if you are that guy. Ask yourself...under what circumstances would I do that which my counter party is offering to do.

Do some guys want to transfer knowledge, yes. Are most willing to do it as a charity, no.

Some of the pundits offer honest legitimate solutions, others have never done anything but sell a dream. What I'd use as a filter is: Has this pundit ever been or are they still actually a player? I'd tend to go with guys that are actually doing what you want them to coach you on and doing it at a very high level.


Last edited by wldman; October 16th, 2016 at 02:14 PM.
     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 02:23 PM   #337 (permalink)
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I thought it may come down to a matter of opinion, I was hoping to gain some more experienced opinions than my own, which I have


bobwest View Post
Perfectly reasonable.Some factors I would suggest thinking about include:

Some great questions to ask my self, most of which I know the answer to already too....... for better or worse

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 02:43 PM   #338 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
@bobwest

I sometimes break it down like this: There are pundits and there are players.

Pundits are guys that talk about it. Players are guys that do it.

In my mind the difference is abundantly clear. Yet I know many players, guys that are still killing it trading, that have switched over to the "bullshit game"...that is pundit side, by offering a product or service for sale.

I can't, nor do I try very hard to figure that out. I do not understand the notion that if I guy has a goose that lays golden eggs...why he would sell the goose or even tell you where he keeps it. I do not buy for a second the idea that a guy that makes, or can make, $10,000 before 10 am four days out of every five will stick around and field phone calls from you, or review your trades, or teach you his methods until the end of regular business hours in exchange for even $1,000 a month.

Think about it, if you are that guy. Ask yourself...under what circumstances would I do that which my counter party is offering to do.

Do some guys want to transfer knowledge, yes. Are they willing to do it as a charity, no.

Some of the pundits offer honest legitimate solutions, others have never done anything but sell a dream. What I'd use as a filter is: Has this pundit ever been or are they still actually a player? I'd tend to go with guys that are actually doing what you want them to coach you on and doing it at a very high level.

@wldman, I agree completely, of course.

But we're not talking about pundits or giving advice or teaching some trading method. We're talking about a prop shop that is offering to hire traders if they can pass a test of trading sim (the "Combine") to hit a certain total, while controlling losses. The Combine costs money, and, of course, being sim is not real trading. But there has been a big argument about the fact that they charge to take it. Their argument is that if it were totally free, no one would feel they had much at stake and it would just be meaningless. Some others think that it's a rip-off to charge for it. We're talking a few hundred bucks, tops ($150 - $375, depending on what you choose.)

Generally, people find it hard to pass it. Trading is not all that easy.

There are people who do, and those who don't. Alex, @rocksolid68, is one who took it and did. They took him on as a trader, after a number of attempts by him, and he did well enough trading their money to take his share of the profits out and go out and trade on his own, which he does now.

So, they do what they say: set you up with a funded account, with rules and risk management, and split any profits with you (80 to you, 20 to them.) They are prospecting for traders, and will stake them if they can show it's worth the risk to back them.

The argument is whether it's worth the cost of the Combine for the trader, especially if you don't pass it, and then keep trying. There's a legitimate argument about that.

But that's what @IzhakHaim and I are talking about. My point is only that a person should make his own risk/reward calculation and decide whether to go with it or not. It's either worth it or it's not, which is a personal decision.

And, I did say I would stop, so now I guess I ought to....

Bob.

     
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Old October 16th, 2016, 02:59 PM   #339 (permalink)
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fiftyeight View Post
With regards to Topstep, whats your thoughts on it being a $150,000 account?

Its more like trading an account that is your Max Draw Down + Margin?

Not saying you should, but you could trade an equivalent account of 15 contracts with less than $20k

I looked at it.
If you compare 30k and 150k combines:
30k: 1.5 drawdown, 1.5k profit target
150k: 4.5k drawdown, 9k profit target
Your drawdown is increased 300% percent, but your profit target is increased by 600%(!!).
Meaning that all things being equal, you now need to show much more profit for amount of risk. All of a sudden you need much stronger edge to pass combine.

     

Old October 16th, 2016, 04:32 PM   #340 (permalink)
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Sorry Bob


@bobwest

I missed the point a little.

Opinion: For the nominal investment I don't think most people could go wrong by taking the TST challenge and trying to learn everything they can from the process.

Alex, @rocksolid68 is not "normal", I could be wrong but my early read on him is that he is exceptional.

The guys at TST do have a legit business plan and I view them as a credible operation...valuable and non exploitive.

Sorry if I've pissed up a decent thread. I will join Bob in stepping back now.

     
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