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Learning the ES
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Learning the ES

  #71 (permalink)
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sandptrader View Post
Try size 1.5 to see if you get more movement, as in Tradeable movement...that might show you some more set ups that you may have Entered...in any case it should be smaller than what you posted.

ok, i'll take it down some more.
i may need to revisit my rules, now with this renko chart.
this is 1.5. I'll keep messing with it.

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thanks again for your help. i feel like what i want to do with the trend and what i am actually doing don't match. i'm not able to match trading the trend in real time with what it looks like in hindsight. the renko chart though seems like it's going to help a lot. need to watch it.


Last edited by jackbravo; October 27th, 2014 at 07:01 PM.
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  #72 (permalink)
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jackbravo View Post
ok, i'll take it down some more.
i may need to revisit my rules, now with this renko chart.

if the Renko charts do not turn out to help you after you explore them a bit, just continue to try , to focus on your rules, and what type Charts you feel comfortable with.
usually when i find something new i will work it over inside , and out trying to see if it will help me before moving on...i just will not rely on it in Live trading till i see it helps.

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  #73 (permalink)
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sandptrader View Post
if the Renko charts do not turn out to help you after you explore them a bit, just continue to try , to focus on your rules, and what type Charts you feel comfortable with.
usually when i find something new i will work it over inside , and out trying to see if it will help me before moving on...i just will not rely on it in Live trading till i see it helps.

I've been watching the Renko chart all night. I like it. When going back over yesterday's trades, it would've kept me out of at least 4 countertrend trades, which I thought at the time were with trend trades. I'm redefining my trend as follows:

Consecutive lows over 21EMA on 15min = uptrend
Consecutive highs under 21EMA on 15min = downtrend
Pullbacks can be taken only if Renko shows the trend is persistent.

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  #74 (permalink)
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10/28

Well, only down 8 or points today. Yeesh. Got chopped up again at the beginning, trying to go in and out lduring the morning chop. Finally when the thing cleared the 15min 21EMA, I bought it again and let it sit. Had to go to bed because I worked last night, so I put my target over the tops of the most recent daybars, hoping stops would get run, and got a 12pt run when I woke up. The renko is great for keeping me in the trend, but not so good with the chop. I missed another good trend last night that I had gotten in on the bottom of, but got out quick due to being scared (that's what happens when your account is down 40%!) instead of looking at the Renko. The Renko would've kept me in it for 10 points.

I like these new rules, and I really like the Renko. Many thanks go out to you sandptrader!! Now, I just have to make sure I stay out of chop.

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  #75 (permalink)
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Great Trade


jackbravo View Post
10/28

Well, only down 8 or points today. Yeesh. Got chopped up again at the beginning, trying to go in and out lduring the morning chop. Finally when the thing cleared the 15min 21EMA, I bought it again and let it sit. Had to go to bed because I worked last night, so I put my target over the tops of the most recent daybars, hoping stops would get run, and got a 12pt run when I woke up. The renko is great for keeping me in the trend, but not so good with the chop. I missed another good trend last night that I had gotten in on the bottom of, but got out quick due to being scared (that's what happens when your account is down 40%!) instead of looking at the Renko. The Renko would've kept me in it for 10 points.

I like these new rules, and I really like the Renko. Many thanks go out to you sandptrader!! Now, I just have to make sure I stay out of chop.

I am Really Happy that the Renko Type bars have helped you....actually just hearing that one of the Traders here at futures.io (formerly BMT) had a Good day...also makes me feel Good.
I would recommend to check out @mfbreakout over in the COMMON SENSE thread...and @tigertrader, and @Big Mike over in the ES SP500 Spoo-nalysis thread....i do believe they had a Great day....and they are Very Good Traders...you can learn from how they trade.....you might want to keep an eye out on those threads since you are trying to improve your Trading....and there are other very Good traders here...just keep looking at the threads.
if you keep working with the Renko bars and get a few Size Renko Charts to monitor......like from small , Medium, Larger Specifically for the Intraday Swings...it could help you no matter if the market is choppy, as the smaller one could still help you with Entry into a Larger Trend......that is where the Money is, if you can get in a Good Position
You will have no problem getting the 5 points as i read you state in a post.....that is 20 Ticks or $250 per Contract.
But no matter what Types of Charts you end up using for your Analysis....keep working on your Trading Rules, Emotions....Set ups, ....what ever gives you an Edge in your Trading.
I think most everyone continues to try and improve their performance, and System....i believe it is an on going journey.

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  #76 (permalink)
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sandptrader View Post
I am Really Happy that the Renko Type bars have helped you....actually just hearing that one of the Traders here at futures.io (formerly BMT) had a Good day...also makes me feel Good.
I would recommend to check out @mfbreakout over in the COMMON SENSE thread...and @tigertrader, and @Big Mike over in the ES SP500 Spoo-nalysis thread....i do believe they had a Great day....and they are Very Good Traders...you can learn from how they trade.....you might want to keep an eye out on those threads since you are trying to improve your Trading....and there are other very Good traders here...just keep looking at the threads.
if you keep working with the Renko bars and get a few Size Renko Charts to monitor......like from small , Medium, Larger Specifically for the Intraday Swings...it could help you no matter if the market is choppy, as the smaller one could still help you with Entry into a Larger Trend......that is where the Money is, if you can get in a Good Position
You will have no problem getting the 5 points as i read you state in a post.....that is 20 Ticks or $250 per Contract.
But no matter what Types of Charts you end up using for your Analysis....keep working on your Trading Rules, Emotions....Set ups, ....what ever gives you an Edge in your Trading.
I think most everyone continues to try and improve their performance, and System....i believe it is an on going journey.

Thanks man. I've been reading the Spoo-nalysis thread, but it trips me out during the live trading. So I've tried very hard not to look at it while I'm trading. Trying to trade like them kills me because I just don't have their balls to sit through all the price action they're willing to sit through. But I'm trying! I really like to visit the thread to understand how they approach the market, what they look at it, how they analyze things. It's a great great learning tool, and I'll probably join the Elite just to support this site and those types of threads on here.

Appreciate your advice, and I'll experiment with the smaller Renkos and check out the Common Sense thread. Thanks again!



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Last edited by jackbravo; October 28th, 2014 at 08:48 PM.
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  #77 (permalink)
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@jackbravo: and all other aspiring new traders...

i'm not sure if you caught this, but i wrote the following for my thread. it's some common mistakes that i see people making on a regular basis. it is by no means a complete list; but nevertheless, i see traders make these errors on a daily basis. i hope these will help you.

1) having an opinion or bias
- the problem with having a directional bias is most people have trouble admitting they're wrong. even if they are disciplined enough to get out of a losing trade. they have difficulty getting on the right side of the market, because the market is not doing what they expected

2) waiting for the perfect set-up or cherry picking - every now and then the perfect set-up is served up on a silver platter; one can initiate a trade and take little to no heat on it, and even enjoy a linear path with great persistence. however, most of the time, the mistress can be beguiling and fickle; and if one always waits for the perfect moment before they approach her, they will miss out on what she has to offer, 80% of the time.

3) risking a point- one gets in a trade, it goes against them 1 point, and they assume they're wrong and get out of the trade. in a market with an atr between 3-5, how does a random move of 4 ticks, mean anything one-way-or-another?

4)bullish/bearish on a slight uptick/ downtick - the market ticks up and people get bullish, the market ticks down a tick or two and they get bearish; changing their mind as often as the market changes.

5) making excuses to trade, or not to trade- rationalization, intellectualization; i hear something new everyday. i didn't take the trade because of this, i got out of the trade, because of that. whatever the situation, the excuse is always predicated on making the trader feel better and always to the detriment of his profitability and growth.

6) not listening to the market
- there is a certain aspect to trading that is visceral and grounded in ones implicit understanding of price action. the only way one can develop this attribute is to be in the market. one can look at all the charts and data in the world, but they will not be of any help without the markets insights and input. there is no substitute for the feedback one receives when they are in the market and trading.

that being said, i'm don't know if you are trading a live account or not; but, if you are, i think you need to take a step back, for a couple of reasons. 1) once you are trading scared (worried about the money) the game is over. you may not realize it yet, because there is still money in your account, but it's over. 2) you need to learn, before you earn. there is no need for you to rush into trading live. i would wait until you have a better understanding of the market, methodology, money/trade/ risk management and yourself.

all things being equal, the type of bars you use for your charts is inconsequential, and has nothing to do with giving you a better understanding of the market, nor does it provide any real edge. i use ohlc bars and i do fine with them, but it has nothing to do with my ability to stay in trades. if you are comfortable with renko bars, that's o.k., but don't think that their use will give you an advantage.

trading is like any performance based endeavor; you have to begin by learning the CORRECT fundamentals, and then it takes hours upon hours (even years) of deliberate practice, just to attain competency. it involves a lot of trial and error, and along the way, one must battle with frustration, stress, cognitive overload, etc. if you rush into trading live, you will inevitably develop bad habits that will inhibit any and all of your efforts. the result is you will have to tear it all down and start all over again, and you will have to recapitalize over and over again.

take your time and don't rush into trading live. you can also choose to try to show everybody how much faith you have in your own abilities, or you can use the forum to learn from others who have actually been successful. if you really want to learn, find ways to assess information systematically and surround yourself with experienced, knowledgeable, and proven people, who will challenge your opinions; even when they tell you something you don't want to hear. BUT LEARN FIRST!!!

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  #78 (permalink)
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@tigertrader - thank you for stopping by the thread and your input, as always, is much appreciated.


tigertrader View Post
@jackbravo: and all other aspiring new traders...

i'm not sure if you caught this, but i wrote the following for my thread. it's some common mistakes that i see people making on a regular basis. it is by no means a complete list; but nevertheless, i see traders make these errors on a daily basis. i hope these will help you.

I did read this information in your thread, and have experienced and continuously experience these mistakes.


tigertrader View Post
1) having an opinion or bias- the problem with having a directional bias is most people have trouble admitting they're wrong. even if they are disciplined enough to get out of a losing trade. they have difficulty getting on the right side of the market, because the market is not doing what they expected.

I am unable to not have a bias in the market. Yet, I am now trying very hard to completely ignore that bias by focusing on the chart alone.


tigertrader View Post
2) waiting for the perfect set-up or cherry picking - every now and then the perfect set-up is served up on a silver platter; one can initiate a trade and take little to no heat on it, and even enjoy a linear path with great persistence. however, most of the time, the mistress can be beguiling and fickle; and if one always waits for the perfect moment before they approach her, they will miss out on what she has to offer, 80% of the time.

Luckily, I do not face this problem. My problem is the opposite.


tigertrader View Post
3) risking a point- one gets in a trade, it goes against them 1 point, and they assume they're wrong and get out of the trade. in a market with an atr between 3-5, how does a random move of 4 ticks, mean anything one-way-or-another?

I have noticed that if the market moves more than 5 points, usually, there is a (possibly temporary) change in sentiment. I started out with that stop equaling 2.5% risk in my account. However, I have gradually tightened it up due to dwindling funds, and heightened anxiety - which I have found had the reverse of my intended effect. I did take your previous advice in your thread, and widened it back out to 4 points. However, I still feel it's a very arbitrary way of placing a stop. Ideally, I would like to trade without stops, but exit trades based on my interpretation of market structure and change in sentiment. I know it will take a lot of education and capitalization though before I can implement a more optimal technique.


tigertrader View Post
4)bullish/bearish on a slight uptick/ downtick - the market ticks up and people get bullish, the market ticks down a tick or two and they get bearish; changing their mind as often as the market changes.

This issue is a continous struggle, and I am hoping the implementation of the Renko bars will allow to keep the overall sentiment in focus.


tigertrader View Post
5) making excuses to trade, or not to trade- rationalization, intellectualization; i hear something new everyday. i didn't take the trade because of this, i got out of the trade, because of that. whatever the situation, the excuse is always predicated on making the trader feel better and always to the detriment of his profitability and growth.

This issue is very difficult to tackle in my current frame of reference. I am addressing using rules to help me understand market sentiment, yet I am unable to stay in a trade for an extended period of time, though the market sentiment has obviously not changed. I think not being a losing trader would change my frame of reference, and that will take some time. But I do aspire to trade ideally, rather than scalp (which is my current process).


tigertrader View Post
6) not listening to the market- there is a certain aspect to trading that is visceral and grounded in ones implicit understanding of price action. the only way one can develop this attribute is to be in the market. one can look at all the charts and data in the world, but they will not be of any help without the markets insights and input. there is no substitute for the feedback one receives when they are in the market and trading.

I know this will take the most time to develop, yet I prize this ability above all others. The market is fascinating to watch, in its response to outside events, as well as to itself. Being able to feel it correctly, in my opinion, is more important than understanding it. Currently, I feel it incorrectly.


tigertrader View Post
that being said, i'm don't know if you are trading a live account or not; but, if you are, i think you need to take a step back, for a couple of reasons. 1) once you are trading scared (worried about the money) the game is over. you may not realize it yet, because there is still money in your account, but it's over. 2) you need to learn, before you earn. there is no need for you to rush into trading live. i would wait until you have a better understanding of the market, methodology, money/trade/ risk management and yourself.

This advice weighs heavily on me. It makes sense intellectually, but I am unable to switch away from live trading. A big reason is that I can't leave while having sustained a loss, though knowing there's a high likelihood that the loss will be more severe if I continue on the current path. I am attempting to address my emotional reactions with additional insight from Steenbarger's books (thanks @josh !).

I did SIM trade previously, and yet, have found a huge benefit (and detriment) to live trading. It has accelerated my learning, and has brought into light many issues which were not apparent during SIM trading. Additionally, I have found that my passion and motivation for understanding the market has markedly increased. Lessons that I have learned and continue to learn seem to last due to their associated emotional response. Despite the obvious financial setback, live trading has been the single most driving force for continued learning for me. At this point, it's very difficult (yet likely imprudent) for me to abondon it. I will however keep your advice in mind.


tigertrader View Post
all things being equal, the type of bars you use for your charts is inconsequential, and has nothing to do with giving you a better understanding of the market, nor does it provide any real edge. i use ohlc bars and i do fine with them, but it has nothing to do with my ability to stay in trades. if you are comfortable with renko bars, that's o.k., but don't think that their use will give you an advantage.

trading is like any performance based endeavor; you have to begin by learning the CORRECT fundamentals, and then it takes hours upon hours (even years) of deliberate practice, just to attain competency. it involves a lot of trial and error, and along the way, one must battle with frustration, stress, cognitive overload, etc. if you rush into trading live, you will inevitably develop bad habits that will inhibit any and all of your efforts. the result is you will have to tear it all down and start all over again, and you will have to recapitalize over and over again.

take your time and don't rush into trading live. you can also choose to try to show everybody how much faith you have in your own abilities, or you can use the forum to learn from others who have actually been successful. if you really want to learn, find ways to assess information systematically and surround yourself with experienced, knowledgeable, and proven people, who will challenge your opinions; even when they tell you something you don't want to hear. BUT LEARN FIRST!!!

I do very much appreciate your insight, and strive to better myself through cognitive reprogramming. I hope that this journal doesn't come across as one where I am attempting to prove anything to anybody other than myself, though I hope to receive feedback on obvious errors that I may not be noticing. Being in the Chicago area, it seems I should be able to find expertise readily available. I am very wary of charlatans however. The cognitive and emotional overload I am experiencing, I have previously experienced in training for my current day job. In fact, I recall vividly the first two years of my training, I wasn't sleeping well, was tired all the time, couldn't think straight, etc., and I am reliving those scenarios at the present time. Luckily, I learn quickly from experience, so it's much less stressful this time around. Part of me actually enjoys it, strangely enough.

I know my current approach is blunt and pedestration. All I need it to do is keep me funded so I can continue to trade live, and learn. Maybe that's a paradoxical goal. That being said, my plan of attack in learning the fundamentals is the following:

A) Market Structure
-cyclical and fractional patterns
-price action
-correlations
-driving forces:
--carry trades
--macroeconomic effects
--policy effects
--acts of God/panic of man
B) Order Flow analytics
-institutional buying and selling
-aggregrate buying and selling as a proxy to general market sentiment
C) Discover what I don't know I don't know


Many thanks again for stopping by the thread, and for your insight. I don't expect you or anybody to read the diatribe above; it's more for clarification of my own thoughts. I will continue to follow your thread, and aim to extract as much information as possible from it, as well as from the experience of those on this site.


Last edited by jackbravo; October 29th, 2014 at 02:46 AM.
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  #79 (permalink)
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Hey @jackbravo maybe you could consider trading live only one day a week. Maybe Fridays would be a good day. Consider this.

Monday through Thursday you trade the sim account just as if you were trading live. After practicing all week, you go live on Friday to test your prior week skills.

Thinking there could be some good benefits:

You spend your week practicing in a lower stress environment, but still focused on producing results.

The fact that you only get to trade live one day should force you to be as productive as possible during the week.

You would have one full week between each live trading day to forget about any negative experience from losses, or euphoria from a good day.

Your losses would not be a daily event that is accelerating your accounts' demise, and will ultimately wear on your psyche, and possibly cause revenge trading.

I believe that one day, even if it is a loss, could really help you laser focus on the weaknesses in your trading, and accelerate your learning curve.


One last note, I wish I would have thought about this when I was learning lol. Keep at it man.

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  #80 (permalink)
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@lovetotrade - that's a great idea, man.

10/29

Well, got a few good trades in that didn't workout. Good...according to my plan. Went long this morning before market open, it got up to the 80s but not quite high enough before it came back down. I was fine with losing some points there. What I wasn't fine with though was trying to do the same thing 2-3 more times and getting knocked out repeatedly. Obviously, it wasn't going anywhere, and I didn't sync with that.

Got in short at 75.75 in mid-morning, but couldn't watch it because I had to go to sleep. Instead of setting my stop and profit targets, and going to sleep, i jumped out of a good trade after some heat. Bad bad. Need more trust in the system.

I also started playing around with ATR, since it's received a couple of mentions by a couple of different people. I've decided to put my stops at 2 ATR on the 15min, which is around 4-5points. Previously I was putting stops at 2 ATR on the 2000tck chart, which was closer to 3 points, and I'd keep getting stopped out. That being said, it's very important that I come in at the beginnning of the trend. I've also mapped out 3 and 4 ATRs, and have noticed that price rarely gets over 4 ATRs (sometimes it does though). This will help remind me not to chase those spikes when I see them hit 4 ATRs. All in all, there's been some minimal incremental progress today (I think).

Overall lost about 5.25pts. The bleeding seems to be slowly reducing.


Last edited by jackbravo; October 29th, 2014 at 08:10 PM.
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