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The Pandawarrior Chronicles II
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The Pandawarrior Chronicles II

  #271 (permalink)
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I completely agree with this.....in my personal life I try to do the right thing even when its hard.....one area that over time I've turned around completely is organization and clutter. I used to be a horrible collector of junk...piles of paper, dirty and clean clothes on the floor all the time, things never put in the same place twice, etc.

Then one day I knew I had to change so over the weekend I cleaned every thing....then made the effort to always keep it that way.....I still fall back into that mindset once in a while...but I recognize it quick and revert back to the new habits I've developed.....and that new habit has effected other areas of my life as well....all for the better.

I think habit development is more difficult in trading because of the fear of loss and the fear of missing out.....I don't really suffer from greed so much but I do fear missing out and to a lessor degree, I fear losing although I have to say I've always been able to take a stop.....I don't think I've ever moved a stop hoping a loser turns into a winner.....I have moved them once I realized they were in the wrong place but never to avoid a loser.....my biggest mental or emotional hurdle is fear of missing out.....and that causes the monkey brain to jump in when he should be waiting....and it causes the monkey brain to close early to avoid giving back open profits.....

today however, I managed to quiet monkey brain for the most part....he still go me in early with to wide a stop which meant I closed the trade for a loser even though it would have eventually been a winner....I got back in when the risk was lower and held it until it stalled out a bit....ended up leaving money on the table of course but I had already predetermined where to exit and if it stalled prior to that to just exit which I did.....still, today's conversation with the monkey brain was far more muted than the last two days.....he really only got out of hand once today.

I'm still struggling with the fear of missing out. I tried remedying it by:
1. Trading freestyle - no setup, just watching price action, complete discretion on entries and exits. Yeah, had some fantastic days but this style of trading requires more than my talent. If somebody out there can do it, good for them.I can't, not with long term profitability. Less than 1% of traders?
2. Multiple setups - very tempting.... but lately decided to really master just one thing.... monkey HATES it... like today, missed a move. If I traded freestyle (#1), I would have just entered short and exited on slowing momentum of the second leg....
3. One setup - sucks, but necessary. Feels like days when you don't trade are 'wasted'.... the same old trap of looking for profit, wanting to be rewarded.... the will to meaning as a trader. The answer is finding meaning in following one's method, not in taking trades or 'winning'.

"...the degree to which you think you know, assume you know, or in any way need to know what is going to happen next, is equal to the degree to which you will fail as a trader." - Mark Douglas
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  #272 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Anagami View Post
the same old trap of looking for profit, wanting to be rewarded.... the will to meaning as a trader. The answer is finding meaning in following one's method, not in taking trades or 'winning'.

"The will to meaning" -- very nice observation.

Bob.

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  #273 (permalink)
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not bashing; just being honest


let's not forget that @PandaWarrior has been trading for 6 years, not 6 months; and neither the tenor of his posts have changed during that period of time, nor has his trading. continuing to patronize him with uplifting moral aphorisms and cliched trading advice is not going to do him any good. his problem is not superficial, but is deeply rooted and ingrained in his persona and psyche. like every other trader who has banged his head against the wall of frustration while learning how to trade, he is his own worst enemy. doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, is as einstein said, insane. this is not to say brian is insane, but he is certainly very stubborn, unrealistic, and dishonest with himself. peel away the layers and there are a myriad of causes that have stultified his progress. at the very core, his problem begins with his attitude and approach to trading. either he doesn't fully grasp what's emotionally required to be a trader, is unwilling to make the sacrifice, or he is simply incapable of making the transition. until he adopts the requisite traits necessary to be a trader, he will simply be an individual who is attempting to trade, and not a trader.

his methodology is predicated on the avoidance of risk and as a result he has dramatically reduced his ability to profit. his results have been random to date, because he makes random trades, based on a simplistic, risk adverse, bar-to bar, methodology that does not possess any discernible edge. process has taken a back seat to outcome, and doing what it takes to be profitable, has been replaced with doing what makes brian the most comfortable. on a more pragmatic level, he does not trade the market. there is no two way interaction between the thought/ action process and feedback received from the market. he makes assumptions that are not based on an objective analysis of fundamentals, sentiment, cross asset relationships, volatility, or price action; and instead, trades in a vacuum, looking for hackneyed set-ups that confirm his subjective bias. on the days he guesses right, he makes a little money; and the on the days he's wrong he loses a little money - never making very much, nor losing very much, but still riding the emotional roller coaster from trade-to-trade.

the stubborn adherence to an approach and methodology that has never worked should be an obvious indication that one needs to make some drastic changes. it' simple logic and common sense that if it something doesn't work, you stop doing what doesn't work, and you try something else. and if that doesn't work , you keep trying new things, until you find something that does work. brian needs to finally come-to-grips, with the fact that how he approaches trading, and how he physically trades, is inherently flawed and inadequate; and do what's necessary to revamp and improve the entire process. he doesn't need to be coddled because he's a nice guy and sympathetic figure. what he really needs is an intervention and a self-administered wake-up call to action and change, otherwise he'll be in the same place 6 years from now, if he's not finished way before then.


Last edited by tigertrader; March 13th, 2015 at 05:31 PM.
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  #274 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
let's not forget that @PandaWarrior has been trading for 6 years, not 6 months; and neither the tenor of his posts have changed during that period of time, nor has his trading. continuing to patronize him with uplifting moral aphorisms and cliched trading advice is not going to do him any good. his problem is not superficial, but is deeply rooted and ingrained in his persona and psyche. like every other trader who has banged his head against the wall of frustration while learning how to trade, he is his own worst enemy. doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, is as einstein said, insane. this is not to say brian is insane, but he is certainly very stubborn, unrealistic, and dishonest with himself. peel away the layers and there are a myriad of causes that have stultified his progress. at the very core, his problem begins with his attitude and approach to trading. either he doesn't fully grasp what's emotionally required to be a trader, is unwilling to make the sacrifice, or he is simply incapable of making the transition. until he adopts the requisite traits necessary to be a trader, he will simply be an individual who is attempting to trade, and not a trader.

his methodology is predicated on the avoidance of risk and as a result he has dramatically reduced his ability to profit. his results have been random to date, because he makes random trades, based on a simplistic, risk adverse, bar-to bar, methodology that does not possess any discernible edge. process has taken a back seat to outcome, and doing what it takes to be profitable, has been replaced with doing what makes brian the most comfortable. on a more pragmatic level, he does not trade the market. there is no two way interaction between the thought/ action process and feedback received from the market. he makes an assumption or develops a bias, that is not based on an objective analysis of fundamentals, sentiment, cross asset relationships, volatility, or price action; but instead, looks for hackneyed set-ups that confirm his subjective bias. on the days he guesses right, he makes a little money; and the on the days he's wrong he loses a little money - never making very much, nor losing very much, but still riding the emotional roller coaster from trade-to-trade.

the stubborn adherence to an approach and methodology that has never worked should be an obvious indication that one needs to make some drastic changes. it' simple logic and common sense that if it something doesn't work, you stop doing what doesn't work, and you try something else. and if that doesn't work , you keep trying new things, until you find something that does work. brian needs to finally come-to-grips, with the fact that how he approaches trading, and how he physically trades, is inherently flawed and inadequate; and do what's necessary to revamp and improve the entire process. he doesn't need to be coddled because he's a nice guy and sympathetic figure. what he really needs is an intervention and a self-administered wake-up call to action, otherwise he'll be in the same place 6 years from now, if he's not finished before then.

I do not know about Panda personal trading situation but all the things Gary has pointed in this note has applied to my trading, some of the things have been corrected and some are still work in progress.
Gary is a poet and write beautifully. My impression is that a person who really cares for other traders success will put so much thought ino writing something like this.



My posts are not meant to give financial advice neither do they imply that my method is special. "THIS IS WHAT I COULD BE IF I HAD A TOTALLY CARE FREE STATE OF MIND DURING TRADING" Mark Douglas.
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  #275 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
let's not forget that @PandaWarrior has been trading for 6 years, not 6 months; and neither the tenor of his posts have changed during that period of time, nor has his trading. continuing to patronize him with uplifting moral aphorisms and cliched trading advice is not going to do him any good. his problem is not superficial, but is deeply rooted and ingrained in his persona and psyche. like every other trader who has banged his head against the wall of frustration while learning how to trade, he is his own worst enemy. doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, is as einstein said, insane. this is not to say brian is insane, but he is certainly very stubborn, unrealistic, and dishonest with himself. peel away the layers and there are a myriad of causes that have stultified his progress. at the very core, his problem begins with his attitude and approach to trading. either he doesn't fully grasp what's emotionally required to be a trader, is unwilling to make the sacrifice, or he is simply incapable of making the transition. until he adopts the requisite traits necessary to be a trader, he will simply be an individual who is attempting to trade, and not a trader.

his methodology is predicated on the avoidance of risk and as a result he has dramatically reduced his ability to profit. his results have been random to date, because he makes random trades, based on a simplistic, risk adverse, bar-to bar, methodology that does not possess any discernible edge. process has taken a back seat to outcome, and doing what it takes to be profitable, has been replaced with doing what makes brian the most comfortable. on a more pragmatic level, he does not trade the market. there is no two way interaction between the thought/ action process and feedback received from the market. he makes assumptions that are not based on an objective analysis of fundamentals, sentiment, cross asset relationships, volatility, or price action; and instead, trades in a vacuum, looking for hackneyed set-ups that confirm his subjective bias. on the days he guesses right, he makes a little money; and the on the days he's wrong he loses a little money - never making very much, nor losing very much, but still riding the emotional roller coaster from trade-to-trade.

the stubborn adherence to an approach and methodology that has never worked should be an obvious indication that one needs to make some drastic changes. it' simple logic and common sense that if it something doesn't work, you stop doing what doesn't work, and you try something else. and if that doesn't work , you keep trying new things, until you find something that does work. brian needs to finally come-to-grips, with the fact that how he approaches trading, and how he physically trades, is inherently flawed and inadequate; and do what's necessary to revamp and improve the entire process. he doesn't need to be coddled because he's a nice guy and sympathetic figure. what he really needs is an intervention and a self-administered wake-up call to action and change, otherwise he'll be in the same place 6 years from now, if he's not finished way before then.

Very few external things or people motivate me.....very few.......I have built a multi million dollar mortgage/insurance/real estate business largely by myself (Full disclosure, I bet very big at the wrong time and lost it all by myself as well).

The drive, the motivation and the required action all came from within. Only once or twice during the building of that business did an outside influence have much impact on me.....one of those was quite profound and yet even that was simply a guidance toward something I already knew I needed to do but had been reluctant to begin that process. Once influenced though, I undertook it with gusto and while it took a while to play out, one of the ultimate results was the adoption of my daughter from Thailand. Probably the best decision of my life to this point.

This post however has influenced me in a way I have not experienced in quite a long time. Without going into detail about my inner thoughts, Gary has managed to both infuriate me and motivate me at the same time. Regardless of his actual motivation for the post which I suspect is not as altruistic as he might otherwise claim, he has managed to awaken something in me I haven't felt for a long time......and it feels good.

I wont debate his allegations regarding my trading at this point....suffice to say I was profitable or break even every month last year.....and at least as far as his assertions go with regard to only making a little money, that much is true. I left a ton of money on the table last year from my simplistic method.....actual trades I closed early out of fear of giving back or failing to understand how far the market might go.....or both.

Gary, while I don't really appreciate some of the language you choose to use in many of your discourses both here and in other threads, (some of it is unnecessarily insulting on a personal level) I thank you for clarifying some very important points for me today. It has helped me make some decisions I should have made long ago.

Take care.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris

Last edited by PandaWarrior; March 13th, 2015 at 06:02 PM.
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  #276 (permalink)
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PandaWarrior View Post
Very few external things or people motivate me.....very few.......I have built a multi million dollar mortgage/insurance/real estate business largely by myself (Full disclosure, I bet very big at the wrong time and lost it all by myself as well).

The drive, the motivation and the required action all came from within. Only once or twice during the building of that business did an outside influence have much impact on me.....one of those was quite profound and yet even that was simply a guidance toward something I already knew I needed to do but had been reluctant to begin that process. Once influenced though, I undertook it with gusto and while it took a while to play out, one of the ultimate results was the adoption of my daughter from Thailand. Probably the best decision of my life to this point.

This post however has influenced me in a way I have not experienced in quite a long time. Without going into detail about my inner thoughts, Gary has managed to both infuriate me and motivate me at the same time. Regardless of his actual motivation for the post which I suspect is not as altruistic as he might otherwise claim, he has managed to awaken something in me I haven't felt for a long time......and it feels good.

I wont debate his allegations regarding my trading at this point....suffice to say I was profitable or break even every month last year.....and at least as far as his assertions go with regard to only making a little money, that much is true. I left a ton of money on the table last year from my simplistic method.....actual trades I closed early out of fear of giving back or failing to understand how far the market might go.....or both.

Gary, while I don't really appreciate some of the language you choose to use in many of your discourses both here and in other threads, (some of it is unnecessarily insulting on a personal level) I thank you for clarifying some very important points for me today. It has helped me make some decisions I should have made long ago.

Take care.

the last habit a trader should exhibit is avoiding conflict. i much rather confront someone head on about their under-performance, lack of accountability, or even something minor like an error in judgement, than patronizingly tip-toeing around the subject with them, hoping they get the hint. one might call it it not being passive aggressive, but i like to think of it as being indirectly aggressive - and forthright and honest. truth is; it has been 6 years of whining, excuses, intellectualization, and self-denial. there’s also been a refusal to admit to a trading methodology that could best be described and inchoate and rudimentary, if not outright misleading and detrimental to yourself and others - a stunning example of how not to approach the process of trading. as you can see, there are many things you not only should be made aware of, but that you should feel deeply concerned about. i don’t believe you have the objectivity or fortitude to admit your shortcomings to yourself; at least, not without internally justifying them. so, your response is not only anticipated, but expected. what you needed brian was a wake-up call; or better yet, a reality check. what you really needed was an honest and an objective appraisal of your efforts to become a profitable trader, and not another gratuitous pep talk from your support group. i tried that approach along with some practical advice, but that was a futile effort on my part. perhaps you will look back on this one day, and thank me.


Last edited by tigertrader; March 13th, 2015 at 07:28 PM.
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  #277 (permalink)
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Gary, you are not my coach, boss, risk manager, mentor or anything other than an acquaintance on an anonymous forum.

I did not ask for your advice publicly although I have spoken to you privately with essentially the same results....lots of criticism with very little actionable advice.

It is not your job to belittle, make fun of or otherwise attempt to aggressively give me or anyone else here a wake up call.

Your over the top manner with regards to "helping" has irritated many many people on the forum and while I've tried to politely let you know it's not appreciated, you persist so to make sure there are no possible misunderstandings, your discourses are no longer welcome here in my thread.

And if I remember correctly, I did thank you already.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #278 (permalink)
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Encouragement goes a long way especially after something so serious as a major surgery. Even if structured criticism is merited and well thought, it can be misconstrued as something malice if not mixed with encouragement. When everything is said and done, people remember how they felt about what is said, not exactly what was said. That's why I've always tried to make an effort to use positive words because I believe they do a lot more benefit over the long run to the reader especially in times of hardship. So many people give up so easily in this career because they don't get enough encouragement. When someone does really well it seems to go unnoticed, but when someone screws up all you see is a dozen posts of others trying to point out what was done wrong. I think it's best to praise strengths than to ridicule weaknesses.


Last edited by Itchymoku; March 13th, 2015 at 08:09 PM.
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  #279 (permalink)
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PandaWarrior View Post
Gary, you are not my coach, boss, risk manager, mentor or anything other than an acquaintance on an anonymous forum.

I did not ask for your advice publicly although I have spoken to you privately with essentially the same results....lots of criticism with very little actionable advice.

It is not your job to belittle, make fun of or otherwise attempt to aggressively give me or anyone else here a wake up call.

Your over the top manner with regards to "helping" has irritated many many people on the forum and while I've tried to politely let you know it's not appreciated, you persist so to make sure there are no possible misunderstandings, your discourses are no longer welcome here in my thread.

And if I remember correctly, I did thank you already.


I am not taking sides with anyone here.. but I want to speak for myself and myself only..

First, Brian.. it looks like you have had some very serious surgery and have come through it successfully. I am very grateful for that and wish you continued improvement in your health.

I simply do not understand why there continues to be an underlying theme on BMF that if you do not trade like certain people on a certain thread you are doomed for failure. Anyone who has any experience in trading knows there are many ways to trade successfully and what works for one does not work for another.

Anyone who has been around trading for a long time also knows it can take many years to become a successful trader. AL Brooks said it took him 10 years... Al Brooks Video.. We have all heard the famous 10,000 hour guideline.. so it takes a long time..

I find the language of some harsh, the criticism unsolicited, and the judging of others very demeaning. If those are tactics and approaches one likes, maybe one should be in law enforcement, drug intervention counseling, or other places where unsolicited public comments are needed. A full time trader who does this consistently is stepping way over the line in my opinion and may have some very serious issues himself... But only God has the right to judge others and there is no God on this forum.

If the intent is to help, find a charity that strikes your heart and really help those in need. Don't publicly criticize those who do not ask for help. Oh, and bashing a guy fresh off of brain surgery? All I can say is wow. I am actually ashamed at the lack of compassion.

Life is too short to surround yourself with those who bash you at every chance they get on what appears to be am EGO building exercise. I choose peace.

Peace and out,

Wolf

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  #280 (permalink)
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In the spirit that open debate is helpful i will share my own personal experience when i was given trading advice by someone very similar to Gary last year. I met someone couple of years ago who was trading CL, Forex like i have never seen before. At this time i was stuck in a rut. Always afriad. The days i was not afraid, i will loose money. I will very clearly see how he was trading, could relate to it, could understand it but just could not do it.

My question always to him was where is your STOP LOSS? His answer always was that he comes to the market every day with $150,000 of risk and he trades. He does not use stop loss and he knows when he is wrong and the days he is wrong , he takes $150,000 loss. In my heart , i will say this is BULLSHIT and go on doing whatever i was doing. I just could not get any where. The day i was relaxed with wide stop loss ( like 150 ticks stop loss for CL) i will get hit. The day i was very conservative, market will do exactly what i thought it will do. I will just sit there with my 1 car position and watch market runs 100, 250 ticks in my favour. I will not add to my position because couple of days ago, i got hit for a 10K, 20K loss. In summary my entire focus was on damage control.

This trader tried couple of times to put sense in to me nicely but it did not made any difference. This trader has an ego bigger than any trader i have ever met ( He has every right to be). He is trading 400-1000 contracts a day and making $300- 500,000 a weak. He has been trading for 30+ years. He is just tired of seeing traders after traders making the same mistakes over and over again. He answers one question and we go back to him with 4 other questions while still doing the same old shit we have been doing. After a while he just gives up and writes criticisim which will make Gary notes look like a love letter.

I did not under stand why he has to be this rude till i started getting some success and started helping some traders. Here is the problem, traders want to learn everything from other traders but at their own terms. They want teacher, coach etc. to guide them, help them etc but without any ACCOUNTABILITY. They just want lollipops all the time. They suck energy out of you and go back to whatever they were doing. They believe in selective learning. Whatever appeals to them they take it and come back after a week, a month for more while doing the same shit during all this time.

I did not understand frustration of this trader about me and many other traders till i got put in his shoes. I am in no way clsoe to his level of success, his experience etc but after a while even i get frustrated looking at other traders keep getting hosed years after years.

In summary my belief is that to learn something from someone - one has to give in and not cherry pick. Period.

Note: I understand Gary is not Panda warrior coach and neither Panda has ever asked Gary for help. My note is for general consumption and it's not about what Panda should do or how Gary should write, coach etc. This post is not meant to imply that Gary way of trading is the ONLY way. I can not trade ES to save my life even though i have read most of Gary's post. I do believe that Gary posts are on the mark. One can get lollipops for a nickel on their own. Instead of being defensive ( it's easier for me to say. I will be pissed off too and have been pissed off) and worrying about harsh language, focus on the message. As Panda Warrior posted " I thank you for clarifying some very important points for me today. It has helped me make some decisions I should have made long ago. " This alone is worth 24K SOLID GOLD. All the lollipops in the world would not have achieved what Gary post has achieved for Panda and me. Panda should be acknowledged for realizing the importance of Gary's post and Gary should be thanked for having the courage, clarity, experience to write it. It takes tremendous effort to write something worthwile and shake someone to the core.



My posts are not meant to give financial advice neither do they imply that my method is special. "THIS IS WHAT I COULD BE IF I HAD A TOTALLY CARE FREE STATE OF MIND DURING TRADING" Mark Douglas.

Last edited by mfbreakout; March 13th, 2015 at 09:32 PM.
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