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Newbie seeks new Porsche via day trading. See what happens.


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Newbie seeks new Porsche via day trading. See what happens.

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  #101 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
Philly, Pa
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Your technical analysis is way above my current technicals educational level but I understand what you're getting at.

What I'm looking at is more along the lines of the lowest value points as charted from mid day on the 14th to the present time, which shows a 6+ percent gain that's pretty steady.

I do not expect SEAS to recover to its pre-crash valuation for YEARS to come, if ever, but I believe that it can certainly make 20 to 22 dollars in a short enough time frame that I'm willing to wait for it.

The company WILL have to make the right moves in order to restore significant investor confidence but I believe that
the worst is over, stock valuation-wise, and a slow but generally steady recovery has started and will continue.

I simply believe that the drop in price was an over-reaction and people are realizing it.

Word is that PETA is trying to buy stock in the company. Good. I hope they buy lots, in the quest to acquire a controlling
stake in the company. That will only help to boost stock prices.

And, ideally, the company will come up with all the right answers and the company becomes a champion of the
conservation and animal rights movement while also providing highly attractive educational entertainment programs
and activities that make it a prime target for the vacationing crowd.

There IS a possibility that Sea World and PETA can find common ground and make each other happy in the process.
PETA would like for people to be very well aware of (and supportive of) animal rights (although I may disagree with
the idea that animals HAVE any rights) and Sea World could, if they play it smart, become a prominent educational
resource which serves the dual purposes of preserving and protecting sea habitats and animal rights AND entertain
the public.



one very important piece of advice you should be made aware of:

you are confusing the stock of the company with the company -they are 2 different entities. there are times when the two are positively correlated and there are times when they are not correlated, and there are times when they are negatively correlated. either one can be manipulated, i.e., the companies fundamentals (by mgt) or the stock price (by market makers, short raiders, promoters) when you buy a stock, you own the stock and not the company.


short interest in the stock jumped 70% from 3,000,000 shares to +5,000,000 shares right before they took the stock down & insiders own only 2% of the company- what does that tell you sherlock?

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  #102 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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All I'm trying to say (and last time, it may have been a bit too lengthy) is that I DO appreciate input, advice, and guidance, as I do have a LOT to learn about this and I'll be the FIRST person to say that, but at the same time,
I feel like I'm being well...maybe overwhelmed is the wrong word...but it's close, anyway...with comments from people who are not quite telling me that I'm going to lose my money (and yet, not one of them can predict the future any better than I can) and yet they're not explaining why they believe that, at least, not in terms that are broken down so that a newbie such as myself can easily understand it.

Think I'm doing it wrong? Great. I want to hear your input. But would you please take a minute to explain why you think so, and in simple terms?

For example, pick one technical indicator you trust that says I'm doing it wrong, and take a minute to explain the significance of that technical indicator and why you believe it says that I'm heading in the wrong direction.

Really, that WOULD be appreciated. In fact I think it would be great if various technicals were explained to me
in real world terms, rather than just the Investopedia definitions. Definitions are great but actually having some
insight into how they work in the real world is SO much better.

A specific example: I sort of understand what the Bollinger Bands are. But I don't really know what they're telling me in a real world situation.

Again, I appreciate all input. But I'd appreciate it even more if it was educational. As in, give a reason for why your opinion is what it is.

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  #103 (permalink)
 josh 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Are my decisions good or bad? That is determined when the outcome of a completed trade has been determined.

I've made a few money losers but the truth is that every losing trade seemed like a bad idea when I did it.

I've also hit my winners on several occasions. If I can simply have more good trades than bad ones, I'll advance.

...

Could you have predicted the 6+ percentage averaged recovery of SEAS over the past week or so, using only your
technical indicators as data sources?

I've been observing and will reply once, and then unsubscribe:

* Whether a decision is good or bad is not determined by the outcome, but rather at the time of the decision. This is the major fallacy in your thinking.
* I'm sure we all know the feeling of having a bad idea and taking the trade anyway, I do for sure. Yet, you bringing it up and focusing on it is likely simply a justification to avoid having to "be wrong."
* Having more good trades than bad ones is nice, but magnitude of good vs bad is ultimately more important in most cases.
* Good traders, IMO, use a variety of data to make a trading decision. The issue is not whether technical analysis or fundamental analysis or some other kind is better than the other; it's that you did not seem to have a process, risk management, or an objective viewpoint about the trade. I know, trust me--it's not easy to be objective.

A common thread that seems to run through your posts is ego. We all have ego, I certainly have mine and have to keep the beast mellow or it destroys me. The themes of "win/loss" and "right/wrong" permeate your language and topics. We all want to win, and I hope you win too. If you want "educational," as you said just now, then realize that you're feeling attacked because you lack the amount of humility to hear what others are saying without immediately becoming defensive. Others who make their living from this business like @tigertrader are laying it on you a little bit because you don't realize that you need "education," not in the form of technical analysis training, but your attitude and ego. Look at post #90 and your language, and the obvious emotional involvement. Look at post #14 and see the euphoria that came with the winning trade. I recognize these because I also make the same mistakes.

It's not personal, and you have to have thick skin in this business. Best of luck to you, sincerely. It's hard for me to write the above paragraph, because I too have ego and constantly make mistakes, and every time I think I know something, the market, or others much better than I am who actually care to help (like tigertrader and @Big Mike) bring me back into line. But please listen to what I'm saying, and know that it's all coming from a sincerely helpful place.

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  #104 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Ultimately you must simply learn from your mistakes. Just try to have the foresight to know you will make them and have enough money left so that in a few years when you have more experience you have money left to do something with it.

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  #105 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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There's a great point, Mike. Nobody can impart their experience to another person. Experience is non-transferrable,
but good advice and education can help a person to learn the lessons less painfully than being uneducated and learning strictly by trial and error.

Yeah, I have an ego. It likes to win. I like to win. I like to be right. I pride myself on (usually) making the right decisions. These are things I have to contend with, and learn to set aside, as part of the process of learning to be a better trader.

I'm seriously trying NOT to offend anybody here. But, yeah, when people are as much as telling me that I'm doing it wrong and not giving me an explanation for their belief, or at least, not giving an explanation that I can really understand at this point, then it does cause some conflict with my aforementioned ego. However, being aware of that, I can
better deal with it and then try to take the advice given in the proper spirit that it was intended to be given in.



I BELIEVE (at this time) that I have some strategies that will work. But time may prove me wrong.

There's a lot I don't understand too well. Let me address one particular concept that has been mentioned on several
occasions: The idea of choosing your entry and exit points. Frankly I don't quite understand the part about choosing
an entry point as to me it seems to be as simple as "Bargain spotted, don't wait for it to climb before buying it.".

That may be a VERY wrong point of view. In fact I think that some people will say it IS a wrong point of view.

So give me alternatives.


Let me tell you what I was (and am still) thinking. And when I'm done, please feel free to critique it and offer
alternatives to me.


When I saw SEAS drop by a third, I personally thought (this is opinion and gut feeling, to be totally honest about it) that it had dropped more than was strictly deserved given the overall picture. THAT is why I decided to buy into it.

I BELIEVE (without evidence) that it will make a significant recovery in reasonable time, but I don't expect it to hit
30 bucks per share again for several years, if ever.

That's why I believe that there's money to be made off of a significant recovery which I have NO evidence is coming. My only evidence is an opinion, a gut feeling. In the short term, the stock is recovering at a rate which, if it follows the projection, will meet my goals in reasonable time.

Now, I've already figured out my most critical goal of all: The break even point. If SEAS hits just 19.12 then I break even. I bought it at 19.08. (385 shares) If you are able to show me that the odds are in fact against me then I'll place a sell order at 19.12 and get out from under it without taking a loss as I certainly can believe that it'll hit 19.12
within the next couple of days. It's gone higher than that since the crash. The trend since then has been steadily upward, according to projection lines drawn on the bottom of the price action.

And if you don't think it'll even go that high, then I can most likely get out of it tomorrow at 19 even for a total loss of 44.80 including commission fees. Which would be an acceptable loss.

I'm not talking about potential profits here, just the odds of breaking even or what it'll cost me to jump out now.


If I'm not asking too much, I would like for one of you to just tell me about one of your own current trades, here in this journal. When you buy something, give me the basics, and don't tell me anything more about it until you close your position. I'd like to watch your play and try to use at as a real world exercise in using and learning technical indicators.

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  #106 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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You need to do some work. It seems you only focus on your thread and aren't learning from anything on the site.

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  #107 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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I agree, there is much on this site that I haven't made much use of yet. I will start going through it and try to learn some things.

Learning this is going to take some time. Nobody masters any new skill overnight. So please bear with me and
try not to get too annoyed as I learn from my mistakes.

While I would not hesitate to compare my guitar building skills to that of anybody, that's a skill I started learning
back in 1985 and I still don't think I've learned everything about it. But yet, building guitars seems rather simple compared to understanding how to reliably make money in the markets.

Skills take time to acquire. But unlike anything I've ever done before, mistakes made in the stock market
can simply make money vanish from my account. That's always a little scary.

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  #108 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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I was rather amused to see a CNBC news report this morning that reports that PETA activists are buying SEAS stock in an effort to be able to influence the company's direction. Today's price jumped 41 cents at the opening bell.

Of course I welcome PETA's investment in the stock. Buy it!

Up 44 cents since opening as of this moment...

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  #109 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
I agree, there is much on this site that I haven't made much use of yet. I will start going through it and try to learn some things.

Learning this is going to take some time. Nobody masters any new skill overnight. So please bear with me and
try not to get too annoyed as I learn from my mistakes.

While I would not hesitate to compare my guitar building skills to that of anybody, that's a skill I started learning
back in 1985 and I still don't think I've learned everything about it. But yet, building guitars seems rather simple compared to understanding how to reliably make money in the markets.

Skills take time to acquire. But unlike anything I've ever done before, mistakes made in the stock market
can simply make money vanish from my account. That's always a little scary.

@Carrerain4 I think most probably started like you picking some stocks etc including me. However, also most of us eventually lost a lot of money. Trading to a degree is largely about habits. You will not make progress by picking up bad habits early using bad methods. These are what will eventually get you even though you may make money at first. I think those trying to warn you here see you driving along with a big smile on your face not realizing there is a big cliff up ahead. We have been there done it and experienced pain because of it. Sounds good to say I am only risking money I can afford to lose until you lose it. Then get more money and lose it. Eventually you dip where should not dip. I wish I had back all the money "I could afford to lose".

You would be better served reading through the site gleaning what other people are doing. Does not mean you will get or need to copy exactly the way someone else does it. I developed my own method but I gleaned and learned a lot from others first. My suggestion would be stop live trading and learn first. You don't have to learn the hard way.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #110 (permalink)
 josh 
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Carrerain4 View Post
I was rather amused to see a CNBC news report this morning that reports that PETA activists are buying SEAS stock in an effort to be able to influence the company's direction. Today's price jumped 41 cents at the opening bell.

Of course I welcome PETA's investment in the stock. Buy it!

Up 44 cents since opening as of this moment...

PETA buying was known two days ago at least, maybe earlier. SEAS opened higher because FBR upgraded and raised its price target. A big part of your job is to know this information if you have a position.

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  #111 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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I did hear about PETA buying it two days ago. But I did not know about the upgrade.

News is critical. I am learning that.

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  #112 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post

News is critical. I am learning that.

News is news, every one has access to it. What is critical is how price reacts to the news.

You can not know what price will do. You can only make an educated guess. The trick is to admit when you are wrong and protect your capital.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #113 (permalink)
Limitless100
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Carrerain4 View Post
There's a great point, Mike. Nobody can impart their experience to another person. Experience is non-transferrable,
but good advice and education can help a person to learn the lessons less painfully than being uneducated and learning strictly by trial and error.

Absolutely not true. Observational learning is one of the most prevalent types of learning we implement, weather it's conscious or subconscious. Learning from the experiences of others is a great way to grow yourself. If you observe that 10 out of 12 people lost money trading over the course of a year, and you could go through each of them interviewing them on what their strategies were and how they went about trading, you could possibly gain imperative knowledge. Maybe you see that the 10 negative accounts all traded off of what CNBC said. Maybe the 10 losers all cut winners short while running with losers. The two positive account can also give you insight as to what they did differently to separate themselves from the others. The winners may have had a more strategic battle plan, they may have been more regiment, etc etc. The point, you absolutely can learn from others experiences.


Quoting 
Yeah, I have an ego. It likes to win. I like to win. I like to be right. I pride myself on (usually) making the right decisions. These are things I have to contend with, and learn to set aside, as part of the process of learning to be a better trader.

................

If I'm not asking too much, I would like for one of you to just tell me about one of your own current trades, here in this journal. When you buy something, give me the basics, and don't tell me anything more about it until you close your position. I'd like to watch your play and try to use at as a real world exercise in using and learning technical indicators.

Your posts are far too long to read through. The first couple sentences in this quote is a problem. You are moving yourself into a business that comes with losing and being wrong. Hopefully your ego is big enough to cushion your fall after you get thrown to the ground by the market. You have repeatedly been lectured by various people who all have given you detailed responses regarding their opinions. You are asking far too much because you are yet to take in anything you are being told.

If you are new an completely inexperienced in any field, seeking out experienced assistance is a great way to jump start your path to success. If you were getting into boxing, and the all time champions of each class came to you to offer assistance, you listen. It's acceptable to have your own opinion and ideas, but you need to take in and really think about what the experienced/successful are offering to you. Don't jump into a boxing ring against a pro without prior training, analysis, and strategy development. Similarly, don't jump into trading/investing without the same three requirements. Going off of what you "think" will work is going to get you one thing, the 10 count.

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  #114 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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Absolutely, experience is non-transferrable. I can give you instructions for hours, days, weeks, even months, on how to ride a horse, but not one bit of it matters until you're in the saddle and have to negotiate a mutally agreeable course of
action with a 1200 pound animal that has a mind of its own.

But I can tell you how to avoid getting kicked in the face by said horse. Don't startle him, particularly from behind.

You can take hundreds of hours of classroom learning in how to fly a plane but until you're at the controls with air under
your wings, you don't have any experience that actually teaches you how to FLY the plane.


I never want to read someone saying "Your posts are too long". This is an indicator of a short attention span which is
a serious problem with most Americans today. Spending three minutes reading someone's complete comments will NOT hurt you.

Your other comments are relevant and applicable. I KNOW that developing a plan of action is very important to learning how to be a successful trader.

I HAVE asked for constructive input. And you know what I've gotten so far, from some people?

I ask about A and I get a long diatribe about B which has nothing to do with what I asked. Or I get people telling
me I'm doing it wrong and am going to lose money BUT they won't give me any specific advice.


So I'm not asking for advice anymore. I will simply read up on the many valuable articles regarding technicals
and many other subjects, which can be found here on this site. I will let those articles be my instructors and guides.

And I will continue to post results of my trades as I make them, unless I get bored with it or decide to be less open
about my personal finances.

I came here to learn. I can still do that from the library articles even if people participating in this topic have (mostly) proven that they are unwilling to answer a simple question directly.


Really I think that several people who have commented here have lorded their experience and skills over me and told
me I will fail without actually bothering to give any really useful advice. This doesn't apply to everyone, to be sure,
and whether you fit into one category or another, I don't have to name names. You KNOW which category you fit into as whomever you are, you know what responses you have made to me. Would you (anybody reading) characterize your comments as encouraging or discouraging? I'll let you answer that question for yourself and I don't need you to write your reply in this topic. It's enough that YOU know.


My trade activity for the day consisted of watching SEAS climb to a high of about 20.78 per share and drop to 20.27 at the end of the day, which would be a gain of 1.17 per share for me at the price of 20.27. I am still in and am more
sure than ever that I will meet my 21 to 22 dollar per share goal withing maybe a week.

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  #115 (permalink)
 Anna K 
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@Carrerain4 I may have missed it, but do you have a stop loss on this SEAS trade?

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  #116 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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Of course I do. And I've revised it to a higher value so as long as my brokerage executes the order in a timely fashion, I've now locked in a reasonable profit margin.


I'm not very experienced but I'm not dumb. I'm well into profitable levels for this trade so of course the stop would be set so as to preserve those profits. Or most of them, anyway.

My stop is set at a profit of a dollar per share. Which in this case would be about 5 percent profit, and 371 dollars net if the order executed at my stop.

This is actually the first time I've set a stop order while in profitable territory. Not a bad feeling.

One limitation I have with my current brokerage is that I can only have one standing order type active on a given position at any given time.

I can have a sell stop in place, OR a buy limit, but not both. So I had to choose between the sell stop and the automatic sell order
at 21 dollars a share.

Since I want to protect my profits I determined that it's safer to keep the sell stop. But this will require me to keep a close eye on
upward movement in the coming days.

This is yet another reason why I want to move my trading to another brokerage. It would be nice to be able to put a stop loss
on an order AND also put a trailing stop on it at the same time. In this case I'd set the trailing stop to trail somewhere between 10 to 20 cents off the peak. (Subject to revision, of course.)

My current brokerage doesn't even offer the trailing stop type of order. I have suggested to them that this is something that any active trader would really appreciate.

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  #117 (permalink)
Limitless100
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Carrerain4 View Post
Absolutely, experience is non-transferrable. I can give you instructions for hours, days, weeks, even months, on how to ride a horse, but not one bit of it matters until you're in the saddle and have to negotiate a mutally agreeable course of
action with a 1200 pound animal that has a mind of its own.

But I can tell you how to avoid getting kicked in the face by said horse. Don't startle him, particularly from behind.

You can take hundreds of hours of classroom learning in how to fly a plane but until you're at the controls with air under
your wings, you don't have any experience that actually teaches you how to FLY the plane.

We are speaking about similar generalized concepts but different at the core in very important ways. Let's take driving a manual car as an example, I'm sure some will be able to literally relate. If you want to learn how to drive a manual car, coming from automatic, there are many things you have to understand. How to work the clutch, what is a clutch!? When to shift, how to shift, why do I shift? etc etc etc. I went through this exact situation. I was able to listen to people who had manual cars, watch them drive, and watch youtube videos on people explaining how to drive a manual car. Through other peoples experience and observational learning I was able to deduct important concepts when it comes to driving a manual car. As you say, was I able to jump in the drivers seat and launch that car, shift at the blink of an eye, rev match around turns, and put to shame pros, no.. But, I was exponentially further advanced than most, and within a couple weeks I already had more skill that most of my friends. So yes, at the end of the day, you absolutely need your own personal experience, but, along the way, learning from others experience / observing successful individuals can help to potentially accelerate your success and increase your potential.


Quoting 
I never want to read someone saying "Your posts are too long". This is an indicator of a short attention span which is
a serious problem with most Americans today. Spending three minutes reading someone's complete comments will NOT hurt you.

It will not hurt me, but it also would not have helped me to further understand/answer what I was trying to figure out. That comment mostly referenced the difficulty of the post to provide clear/concise points. I read the post.


Quoting 
Your other comments are relevant and applicable. I KNOW that developing a plan of action is very important to learning how to be a successful trader.

I HAVE asked for constructive input. And you know what I've gotten so far, from some people?

I ask about A and I get a long diatribe about B which has nothing to do with what I asked. Or I get people telling
me I'm doing it wrong and am going to lose money BUT they won't give me any specific advice.

Not true. You absolutely have received clear and concise advice. I believe it was @josh who mentioned that you must know everything about something you are invested in. You are not trading simple price action of tape info, you are in SEAS for a "longer term" investment in the company, because of that, knowing all possible information is imperative to making educated decisions in reference to your investment. Also, @Underexposed provided you with a detailed break down along with statistical significance, not sure how much more you can expect. I'm not sure who, but someone else recommended taking some time off from live trading, which I also believe could be smart.


Quoting 
So I'm not asking for advice anymore. I will simply read up on the many valuable articles regarding technicals
and many other subjects, which can be found here on this site. I will let those articles be my instructors and guides.

And I will continue to post results of my trades as I make them, unless I get bored with it or decide to be less open
about my personal finances.

I came here to learn. I can still do that from the library articles even if people participating in this topic have (mostly) proven that they are unwilling to answer a simple question directly.


Really I think that several people who have commented here have lorded their experience and skills over me and told
me I will fail without actually bothering to give any really useful advice. This doesn't apply to everyone, to be sure,
and whether you fit into one category or another, I don't have to name names. You KNOW which category you fit into as whomever you are, you know what responses you have made to me. Would you (anybody reading) characterize your comments as encouraging or discouraging? I'll let you answer that question for yourself and I don't need you to write your reply in this topic. It's enough that YOU know.


My trade activity for the day consisted of watching SEAS climb to a high of about 20.78 per share and drop to 20.27 at the end of the day, which would be a gain of 1.17 per share for me at the price of 20.27. I am still in and am more
sure than ever that I will meet my 21 to 22 dollar per share goal withing maybe a week.

Just as a final note, simply telling you that you are headed down a non-lucrative road wouldn't be enough, I agree. But you are being told that in reference to your current trading style. There is nothing wrong with that. It's no different then telling an amateur Golfer to not hold the club by head when making a drive, because if they do, they will fail at driving. Constructive criticism.

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algopaul
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Carerrain4,

I read the first couple of posts on this thread from you and then jumped to the most recent. What a difference in your tone.

Please go back to your early posts and reeread and remember why you started this. Ignore the useless comments. Literally ignore - they are easy to spot. Continue to concentrate on your goals and good luck.

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Carrerain4
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@Limitless100, I get what you're saying about experience vs education. I think we've both made valid points.

To compare that to my own personal experience, I spent many hundreds of hours flying flight simulators on the PC
before I actually took my first real world flying lessons. Actually my simulator logbook had about 2000 hours logged.


At my very first flight, my instructor observed my aircraft handling skills and asked me if I've ever flown before. He
commented that I was extremely smooth on my control inputs and flew like a veteran.

Of course I took that as quite a compliment. I told him that I'd been simming for about 2000 hours logged time
and he replied "I figured it might be that. A good simulator is very useful and that's why the whole industry uses them.
What kind of planes do you fly in your sims?"

I replied "F-16s, via Falcon 4.0." He laughed. Although a Cessna 150 is very different from an F-16, the same
principles of flight apply. Learning to fly a simulated fighter smoothly and precisely made it that much easier to fly the Cessna or Piper starting from the very first flight.

So, yes, I do completely agree that observation and education are very useful but we should agree that they are not a drop-in replacement for actual experience in the saddle...cockpit...trader's armchair.

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Limitless100
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Carrerain4 View Post
@Limitless100, I get what you're saying about experience vs education. I think we've both made valid points.

To compare that to my own personal experience, I spent many hundreds of hours flying flight simulators on the PC
before I actually took my first real world flying lessons. Actually my simulator logbook had about 2000 hours logged.


At my very first flight, my instructor observed my aircraft handling skills and asked me if I've ever flown before. He
commented that I was extremely smooth on my control inputs and flew like a veteran.

Of course I took that as quite a compliment. I told him that I'd been simming for about 2000 hours logged time
and he replied "I figured it might be that. A good simulator is very useful and that's why the whole industry uses them.
What kind of planes do you fly in your sims?"

I replied "F-16s, via Falcon 4.0." He laughed. Although a Cessna 150 is very different from an F-16, the same
principles of flight apply. Learning to fly a simulated fighter smoothly and precisely made it that much easier to fly the Cessna or Piper starting from the very first flight.

So, yes, I do completely agree that observation and education are very useful but we should agree that they are not a drop-in replacement for actual experience in the saddle...cockpit...trader's armchair.

100% agree with your post here.

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  #121 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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Today started with a bumpy ride for SEAS and my stop triggered. I still think it's going to go higher but I am going to stick with the rules I established, including respecting the stop loss that I set. So I made about 400 bucks profit and I'm not about to complain about that!


Actual numbers:

buy 385 shares @ 19.08, principal $7345.80
sell 385 shares @ 20.17, $7765.45

Gross profit $419.65
Gross profit percentage 5.7127

Commissions 14 dollars
Securities transaction fee $0.18

Net profit $405.47
Net profit percentage 5.5197


I consider this to be a good trade.


At the moment I'm all out of the market. Frankly I'm not seeing any market opportunities
that are clear enough to me for me to put any money into them.

But I searched my list of favorites and past winners for me and several of them would have been
good for me to get into this morning. Those have followed patterns I've seen in them repeatedly
and when they do those patterns, they're good for a few percent within a day or two, every time that I've observed.

I'm not going to go into a stock at random. I always want some reason to put money into them.

When I've done so without a reason, it hasn't worked out well for me. But conversely, when I have found my own
reasons to buy into a stock, so far every time I've pulled at least a modest profit out of it.

I simply may not trade today. As it's almost 11 AM it's looking less likely as I see a lot more price action before noon
than in the later half of the day.
Net

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 deaddog 
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Good trade!
Not because you made money but because you followed your rules,

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #123 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Today started with a bumpy ride for SEAS and my stop triggered. I still think it's going to go higher but I am going to stick with the rules I established, including respecting the stop loss that I set. So I made about 400 bucks profit and I'm not about to complain about that!


Actual numbers:

buy 385 shares @ 19.08, principal $7345.80
sell 385 shares @ 20.17, $7765.45

Gross profit $419.65
Gross profit percentage 5.7127

Commissions 14 dollars
Securities transaction fee $0.18

Net profit $405.47
Net profit percentage 5.5197


I consider this to be a good trade.


At the moment I'm all out of the market. Frankly I'm not seeing any market opportunities
that are clear enough to me for me to put any money into them.

But I searched my list of favorites and past winners for me and several of them would have been
good for me to get into this morning. Those have followed patterns I've seen in them repeatedly
and when they do those patterns, they're good for a few percent within a day or two, every time that I've observed.

I'm not going to go into a stock at random. I always want some reason to put money into them.

When I've done so without a reason, it hasn't worked out well for me. But conversely, when I have found my own
reasons to buy into a stock, so far every time I've pulled at least a modest profit out of it.

I simply may not trade today. As it's almost 11 AM it's looking less likely as I see a lot more price action before noon
than in the later half of the day.
Net

You stuck to your rules and took your exit. In my book that is a good trade whether it is for a profit or loss. Profit is the sweetener. Good luck.

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  #124 (permalink)
 shodson 
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Since you seem frustrated nobody is answering your questions I'll take a stab at a few...


Carrerain4 View Post
There's a lot I don't understand too well. Let me address one particular concept that has been mentioned on several occasions: The idea of choosing your entry and exit points. Frankly I don't quite understand the part about choosing an entry point as to me it seems to be as simple as "Bargain spotted, don't wait for it to climb before buying it.".

That may be a VERY wrong point of view. In fact I think that some people will say it IS a wrong point of view.

So give me alternatives.

My son loves Raisin Bran. He wants to eat it every day. So we buy the generic Kroger version, usually ranging in price from $2.49 - $2.99 per box. I usually don't buy it unless I see it at the $2.49 price (support). One late night I was at the store and I saw it at $1.88 a box. I bought every box I could get my hands on. Why? Because I understood its value and saw a price as low as I had never seen. Were those boxes tainted? Past the expiration date? Was there a fundamental reason for the price drop that I didn't know about? Not that I could see. They were probably just trying to clear out inventory because they had more coming in so they had to blow it out. I've never see it that low again and it's been back between its $2.49-$2.99 price range ever since.

What does this have to do with anything? I knew my entry price, and when I saw value I scooped up all I could. I was the Warren Buffet of Raisin Bran, exploiting a supplier's distressed situation to my advantage.

Today I have limit orders to get into new longs on CDW, SLCA, TRN, URI, and ESRX. The price I'm trying to enter are based on my system rules (usually the bar's closing price when I got my signal, othertimes I look for a better entry price for various reasons). I may never get filled on my entries because they are quite bit below the current price. I did get filled on my entries for EBAY, ESRX and SLXP entries this morning, averaging $0.50 in commission per trade. Cool. If I don't get filled on my other trades, no biggie, there will be new trades to come my way.

I will admit there is some "gut" feeling to it but that's usually a reaction to what I see on a chart and sometimes fundamental reasons. However, sometimes, I don't even know what the company does, it's just a symbol that moves in price and has historically been positive reacting to my symbols (knowledge acquired through back testing). But I know my entries, and I know I will exit when price exceeds my mathematically computed trailing stop. That's one example of "knowing your entries and exits".


Carrerain4 View Post
If I'm not asking too much, I would like for one of you to just tell me about one of your own current trades, here in this journal. When you buy something, give me the basics, and don't tell me anything more about it until you close your position. I'd like to watch your play and try to use at as a real world exercise in using and learning technical indicators.

There are a lot of journals here that do that, check them out. Since this is YOUR journal this isn't really the right place for it.

Also, I just want to say don't take everybody's comments too hard. People have different motives for responding to you that serve their purposes. Some are altruistic and want to prevent you from making the same mistakes they made. Others displaying I-know-more-than-you attitude. Some are just haters/trolls but Mike does a good job of limiting their existence here. Stay positive but open minded and keep learning all you can. You may lose money like some are saying but that would just be falling off the horse in one of the many horseback lessons of trading. Just make sure you don't risk so much that you can't get back on the horse.

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 shodson 
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I'll take a stab at another one...


Carrerain4 View Post
In fact I think it would be great if various technicals were explained to me in real world terms, rather than just the Investopedia definitions. Definitions are great but actually having some insight into how they work in the real world is SO much better.

A specific example: I sort of understand what the Bollinger Bands are. But I don't really know what they're telling me in a real world situation.

Again, I appreciate all input. But I'd appreciate it even more if it was educational. As in, give a reason for why your opinion is what it is.

Much has been written about Bollinger Bands. They are often used as a measure of volatility. They are based on statistics, "standard deviations", which you should try to understand. A Google search will teach you plenty more

Bollinger Band® Definition | Investopedia
Bollinger Bands | Official site of John Bollinger's Bollinger Bands and Capital Growth Letter

I have used them in my studies but currently not of my trading systems use them. Standard deviations are popular with options traders, mainly sellers. Some use them us support and resistance. Some use tight Bollinger bands to signify periods of tight volatility in the market for placing directional bets with low risk. There are many ways to use them. It just depends on what works for you.

As far as specific examples to look at, Let me google that for you

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Carrerain4
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I guess I do understand picking your entry and exit points, to some extent at least.

One of the stocks that I've been keeping my eye on, in no small part because it gave me 10.6 percent one fine day recently, is WCPS.

I have watched WCPS ever since then. It is a reliable repeater, or has been lately. Its price falls down to the low end of its range, which was 98 cents and is now about 1.03, and it then climbs a minimum of 4 percent and then comes back down.

This morning I looked at it with the idea of watching it, and maybe buying it, and it opened at 1.03. Well, it hit 1.11 today and that's nearly 8 percent profit.

I thought that 1.03 was a bit higher than I wanted it to be. At 1.00 I'd have snapped it right up. Or even 1.01, but as
I did not expect it to pile on 8 more cents per share I decided to wait for a better day.

The next time it hits 1.03 or less, I will buy into it again. And if it does what it has done routinely and consistently lately, then I should not be surprised to get at least a nickel a share out of it.

So I have established entry and exit points for the next time that I trade WCPS. Enter at anything under 1.04,
exit at 1.08. Depending on what WCPS does between now and then, I may put this plan into action on Thursday.

If it goes under 1.04 on Thursday, I'll buy it.

Unless there's bad news about the company, of course.

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 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
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I would suggest checking out @Underexposed journal. He broke down some different TA and provides some good pros and cons of each.

You can also see how he approaches some of the fundamentals for different companies he is stalking or trading.

Also check out ChartSchool [ChartSchool] for some TA 101.

Candlestick patterns are not the end all and be all of trading. But understanding some of the basic ideas can help you interpret what a chart may be saying and what may be likely to happen next. In trading context is king, and learning to understand the context the market is in will help you make better decisions.

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Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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Oh, as for checking out other trading journals, I've been reading a few of them but it seems that most of them concern options and forex trading.

Although I understand the basic concept of options trading, the details of it absolutely have me mystified.
I don't yet understand anything beyond the basic concepts of calls and puts.

I've been learning about various options trading strategies (Straddles, strangles, and all other sorts of strangely named strategies) but actually having a clue as to how to make an options trade is something I just don't get.

I don't even know if I can, for example, place a call on SEAS at 22 dollars a share a month from now, figuring that it
could be going for more than that by that time. I don't understand how much flexibility the trader has to specify the
terms of what he's optioning.


If I understood it better, I might give some consideration to trading in options. But certainly not at this point!

And forex...that's a complete mystery to me. I don't understand how that works at all.

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  #129 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Oh, as for checking out other trading journals, I've been reading a few of them but it seems that most of them concern options and forex trading.

futures.io (formerly BMT) is overwhelmingly for futures traders. Reading their journals will do you some good, most the concepts are identical regardless of the instrument. Don't focus or get caught up on indicators and methodologies, instead focus on the process, the psychology, the risk approach, measurement, ways of analyzing your behavior and improving, etc. If you come back with a bunch of new indicators or ideas you've completely missed the point.

Mike

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 Scalpingtrader 
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Big Mike View Post
futures.io (formerly BMT) is overwhelmingly for futures traders. Reading their journals will do you some good, most the concepts are identical regardless of the instrument. Don't focus or get caught up on indicators and methodologies, instead focus on the process, the psychology, the risk approach, measurement, ways of analyzing your behavior and improving, etc. If you come back with a bunch of new indicators or ideas you've completely missed the point.

Mike

Also, You will find many more VERY valuable Futures - and Commodity Journals in the Elite section
(many People want their readers to actually be seriously commited to a certain extend - avoids spam and grumpy naz-Sayers..)

You should consider Elite for that reason alone I guess ^^

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 tturner86 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Oh, as for checking out other trading journals, I've been reading a few of them but it seems that most of them concern options and forex trading.

Although I understand the basic concept of options trading, the details of it absolutely have me mystified.
I don't yet understand anything beyond the basic concepts of calls and puts.

I've been learning about various options trading strategies (Straddles, strangles, and all other sorts of strangely named strategies) but actually having a clue as to how to make an options trade is something I just don't get.

I don't even know if I can, for example, place a call on SEAS at 22 dollars a share a month from now, figuring that it
could be going for more than that by that time. I don't understand how much flexibility the trader has to specify the
terms of what he's optioning.


If I understood it better, I might give some consideration to trading in options. But certainly not at this point!

And forex...that's a complete mystery to me. I don't understand how that works at all.

As a trader you should look into each, Futures, Forex, Stocks, and Options. A good trader may not trade all but should have a good understanding about how each work and how the are related.

Also as @Big Mike noted, when you look at others journals I believe it would be helpful for you to look at the metrics and other ways people are grading their trades. Try and keep a detailed journal about each trade, if you don't your journal will not have enough info for you to review and determine what and how you are trading.

The key is to make your journal work for you.

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 bobwest 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Oh, as for checking out other trading journals, I've been reading a few of them but it seems that most of them concern options and forex trading.

Odd that you would say that.... I read a whole lot of journals on futures.io (formerly BMT), and almost none of them are about either options of forex. Maybe that's just me.

Most of the journals/threads on futures.io (formerly BMT) are about futures trading. However, I would say that trading is trading, on the whole. As @Big Mike mentioned, if you can extract the psychological, risk management and decision-making aspects, you will get most of the value from other people's work. It's the process more than the content. The particular markets and techniques matter much less.

I will say that you would get a much broader range of inputs and information if you were to go for an Elite membership. That's your choice, of course. Just a recommendation.

Good luck, and I do mean that.

Bob.

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 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post
I guess I do understand picking your entry and exit points, to some extent at least.

One of the stocks that I've been keeping my eye on, in no small part because it gave me 10.6 percent one fine day recently, is WCPS.

Where does this trade? I can't find it.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #134 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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Correction, that's WPCS. Not WCPS.

Typo...dyslexia...whatever...

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 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Correction, that's WPCS. Not WCPS.

Typo...dyslexia...whatever...

Interesting chart. Look at a ten year chart. this puppy traded near $100 at one time. Lots of overhead resistance as investors wait to get out at break even.

The problem with penny stocks is that when they move you can make a good percentage but you can also lose a good percentage.

I can't help you with any indicators. I don't use them but I like your strategy of buying near the low of the range. It looks like the stock moves 10 cents a day on average.

Right now it's consolidating. Note the lower highs and the higher lows. My bet is it will continue upwards. Notice how the up days were on good volume and the down days not so much. It's a similar pattern to what happened May and June. it might repeat.

I don't usually play the penny stocks but maybe I'll take a look tomorrow. It'll be a lotto play. Risk a little to make a lot.

Maybe get underexposed to work his voodoo for you.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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Carrerain4
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Yeah, it's interesting and looks to me like it's moving upwards overall. I don't expect to get it for 98 cents a share anytime soon. I think 1.05 is probably its current bottom range and I THINK it's good for between 5 and 8 percent gains within two days (more likely, same day) of any time it hits its bottom. So it's what I consider to be an ideal contender for
my trading style, such as it is, at this point in my development.

Its repeating behavior, low cost, high volatility, and high repeatable percentage gains mark it as just the sort of thing
that I'm looking for. Some gold stocks are similar but they don't get as high in percentage gains very often.


The only thing keeping me from having bought into it yesterday was the settled funds rule. If I am pretty sure that I'd want to sell a stock on the same day I buy it, then I can't use unsettled funds to do it as doing that would be freeriding
and result in my account being restricted to cash only. (But it IS a cash only account, so what's the real penalty to me
if I did that? Especially if I did it more than once?)

The next time it's around the low end of its range on a day I have settled funds to work with, it seems rather likely that I'll buy in.

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 deaddog 
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Why don't you have a margin account?

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  #138 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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One account is a retirement account. No margin on retirement accounts.

The other, I simply have chosen not to use margin as of yet. I have not proven to myself that I am consistent enough
at making money that I am going to double (or more) my risks.

If I lost my OWN money, that's not really such a big problem. But if I borrowed money and lost THEIR money, too,
well, THAT would be a problem.

I'm not ready to take on that extra risk just yet.

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Carrerain4
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So I decided to buy WPCS today, fully expecting that I can't sell it for another day due to the settled fund rule.

I put in an order for about 8000 dollar's worth and discovered this thing called a "partial execution" which feels kind of like having your head sawed partly off so maybe that's why it's called that.

I ended up with 175 shares at 1.05. That's 183.75 cost.

And it still cost me 7 bucks just to buy that measly 175 shares.

It'll cost me 7 bucks to sell them.

What are the chances I can just make back 14 bucks on this in the next couple of days?

It has to go to a value of 197.75 so I'll need 8 oercent just to break even.


I rewrote the order with a higher limit and "only" 4800 shares ordered and am waiting for it
to execute. It may not execute at all and that's OK with me. (Day order)
This, after speaking to my brokerage directly and getting an idea of what might actually be
available. Since the stock is very thinly traded today, shares availability is by no means
guaranteed for a larger order.

And that is the lesson I learned today!

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 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post
One account is a retirement account. No margin on retirement accounts.

The other, I simply have chosen not to use margin as of yet. I have not proven to myself that I am consistent enough
at making money that I am going to double (or more) my risks.

If I lost my OWN money, that's not really such a big problem. But if I borrowed money and lost THEIR money, too,
well, THAT would be a problem.

I'm not ready to take on that extra risk just yet.

If you have a margin account you don't have to use margin. But you will be able to make a buy without waiting for settlement.
The extra risk is whether the trader can control himself.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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 Scalpingtrader 
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So I decided to buy WPCS today, fully expecting that I can't sell it for another day due to the settled fund rule.

I put in an order for about 8000 dollar's worth and discovered this thing called a "partial execution" which feels kind of like having your head sawed partly off so maybe that's why it's called that.

I ended up with 175 shares at 1.05. That's 183.75 cost.

And it still cost me 7 bucks just to buy that measly 175 shares.

It'll cost me 7 bucks to sell them.

What are the chances I can just make back 14 bucks on this in the next couple of days?

It has to go to a value of 197.75 so I'll need 8 oercent just to break even.


I rewrote the order with a higher limit and "only" 4800 shares ordered and am waiting for it
to execute. It may not execute at all and that's OK with me. (Day order)
This, after speaking to my brokerage directly and getting an idea of what might actually be
available. Since the stock is very thinly traded today, shares availability is by no means
guaranteed for a larger order.

And that is the lesson I learned today!

hopefully you won't have to "relearn" it when market decides against you one time - imagine you now got only ~200 shares, get the other 4800 later somehow and then the stock starts dropping like crazy. Who's willing to buy your shares back, then? ^^

Just something to be aware of, which is one of the reasons why lots of traders dont do pennystocks..

GL anyways for your journey, I'll stick around

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 bobwest 
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Carrerain4 View Post
One account is a retirement account. No margin on retirement accounts.

The other, I simply have chosen not to use margin as of yet. I have not proven to myself that I am consistent enough
at making money that I am going to double (or more) my risks.

If I lost my OWN money, that's not really such a big problem. But if I borrowed money and lost THEIR money, too,
well, THAT would be a problem.

I'm not ready to take on that extra risk just yet.


deaddog View Post
If you have a margin account you don't have to use margin. But you will be able to make a buy without waiting for settlement.
The extra risk is whether the trader can control himself.

There's also the "pattern day trader" rule with margin accounts. More than 3 day trades in a 5-trading day period, and you'll need to keep $25,000 equity in the account. That may or may not be an issue, but it's intended to stop day trading with smaller accounts.

Pattern day trader - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bob.

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Carrerain4
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Wait....as I understand it, the 3 day rule applies whether you have margin or not, whether you are a pattern day trader as defined, or not.

The only way you can make another trade without the 3 day wait is if you have cash on hand that wasn't used in the last trade, so I guess that would be the 25K equity you're required to have as a pattern trader. Is that right?

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 bobwest 
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Wait....as I understand it, the 3 day rule applies whether you have margin or not, whether you are a pattern day trader as defined, or not.

The only way you can make another trade without the 3 day wait is if you have cash on hand that wasn't used in the last trade, so I guess that would be the 25K equity you're required to have as a pattern trader. Is that right?

OK, this can be confusing, but there are two different things here. The actual cash settlement is one thing, the pattern day trader rule and the 25K requirement are another.

(Nothing I'm writing about here applies to futures trading; only to stock and stock options.)

All settlements on stock or options on stocks, whether you have a cash account or a margin account, take three trading days. That means that you don't get clear funds for three trading days, no matter what kind of account you have.

If you have a margin account, the broker will generously advance you the funds before the actual settlement.

That will cost you, because it's a loan and the broker is not really generous. But you will have tradeable funds available to you. The broker is taking your unsettled cash as collateral, essentially.

If you don't have a margin account, you will have to wait until the funds actually settle, and you have actual cash to work with. So, you will not have tradeable funds until you have settled funds.

Now, the pattern day trader rule is not the same thing. If you have a cash-only account, there is no pattern day trader rule, because you cannot buy until the funds from your last sale have settled, and you have real money. You can't, therefore, do day-trading beyond your actual settled funds. So in-and-out trading is sort of tough, which was the idea (it was instituted, as I recall, after the "dot-com" runup and bust in the late 1990's, when many stock day traders on margin went under.... the concern by FINRA was that the brokers would go under too, since the brokers would be liable for the settlements if their customers couldn't make good, which is why the change was put in. Past history.)

If you have a margin account, you can do day trades with the unsettled money, due, of course, to the broker's generosity. But if you do over 3 in a 5-day period, you run into the "pattern day trader" rule -- they have defined you as having a day-trader "pattern" on the 4th day-trade out of 5 trading days, and they will require you to have enough clear equity in your account to equal $25,000 -- securities or cash, they don't care, so long as it is owned outright (if securities) or is settled cash.

So yes, you're right, there is a 3-day clearance period, and it does apply to cash accounts. It is not the same as the "no more than 3 day-trades in 5 days" rule that defines you as not a pattern day trader. The $25K equity rule only applies to margin accounts, where the customer has been designated a "pattern day trader." You are also right that "The only way you can make another trade without the 3 day wait is if you have cash on hand that wasn't used in the last trade," assuming you have a cash-only account. The 25K number does not apply to you at all in that case, since you are not on margin.

The Wikipedia article I referenced is pretty clear on all this; you can also dig into the actual regs, which I did when I was trying to figure it out, way back when. But, while there are some nuances, what I've outlined is pretty much what it's all about. Here's the reference again: Pattern day trader - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, for better or worse, day trading futures, which most of the people on futures.io (formerly BMT) probably are doing, is completely different. You can use the proceeds of one trade the instant it is closed. In-and-out trading is the norm, and does not wait for any settlement period. Of course, the extreme leverage of futures trading presents its own challenges, which is another story.

I hope this response was not too long-winded, but these are details that a person needs to know about, I think, when going into these markets.

Bob.

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Paige
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"If I lost my OWN money, that's not really such a big problem. But if I borrowed money and lost THEIR money, too,
well, THAT would be a problem."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trust me, you're NOT going to lose any of THEIR money

Peace,
Paige

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SMLMikXL
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Carrerain4 View Post
It's good to have goals. You actually won't make any progress toward a goal if you don't set those goals first,
and that is the honest truth about how life works.

You get nothing worthwhile unless you plan and work for it. (Or are very lucky, which is unlikely.)

well said.


m,

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Shelley
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I'm new here and I don't trades stocks, although I'm looking into it, I've noticed a few things you're doing, that may help you down hill. I read the whole thread and you seemed to think that some posters were mean to you, but I think they were just frustrated with your approach and your unwillingness (blindness is a better word) to change your mindset.

1. You need to give the answer to why on all your decisions. For example: You bought msft at 44.05. Why did you buy it there? You went long, so you must think the price of the share will go up. Why do you think it will go up? Is Microsoft working on the next software magic that will have everyone craving for the new product? Or is some fundamental news about to be reported and your research shows that whenever that news comes out Microsoft shares skyrocket?
You need to know why you enter there, where you want to exit, why you want to exit there and where you will ultimately take a loss if the price goes against you. Which brings me to point number 2.
2. The only way you will know why you want to take those actions is because you have extensively researched the behavior of the market and stocks. You need to go years back and look at the behavior of the stocks in certain economic conditions, earnings reports, etc. You should also look at the chart and see how much a stock normally moves in a day, 1 minute, morning, afternoon, Easter, Christmas, Summer, Winter, etc. It will give you a clue how much returns you can expect and not like you are doing now "hoping" it will go to your predefined percentage.
3. From your research you will notice that certain stock have similar behavior.
4. You should also pick one or two industries and stick to those. Doing research for all industries is almost impossible if your goal is to trade and not be a researcher.
5. Define your rules based on your research and when you have them, then you scan for stocks that meet your criteria. Don't get married to a certain stock. Sometimes stocks move, sometimes they're flat. You always talk about certain stocks it seems like your married to them. You shouldn't be married to a broker either. Get the love and the emotion out. There is no place for it in trading. If they're expensive, if you could have made more without them, dump them and move on.
Finally, read and learn it seems like you have a long way to go and you will get there faster if you know what you're doing. Right now, your strategy seems to be enter and hope for the best and it's a recipe for failure.

I'm sorry if my post is a bit too long and I hope you don't feel offended by my comments.

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 bobwest 
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Paige View Post
"If I lost my OWN money, that's not really such a big problem. But if I borrowed money and lost THEIR money, too,
well, THAT would be a problem."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trust me, you're NOT going to lose any of THEIR money

Peace,
Paige

Right. If you can't meet a margin call, you'll be liquidated well before the broker is in danger.

If you are trading on borrowed money, it just amplifies your returns and losses, but you are taking both.

Bob.

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Carrerain4
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Got some great replies there. Thanks!


So I guess i understand the pattern day trading and 3 day settlement rules pretty well. Good. It makes it less likely
that I will run afoul of them.


I understand that I need to develop good reasons for my picks. And be able to articulate them. Also good.

I understand that I need to not get attached to any particular brokerage or securities. Good again.

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of taking risks with a broker's money. Not yet. I don't ever want to get into a margin call situation and one way to avoid that risk is not to borrow money from a broker.

As for futures trading, right now it's scary enough trying to predict what's going to happen to any given stock TODAY alone. The idea of trying to see farther into the future and put money on it is positively alarming. So at least for the time being, futures trading is not for me.

Particularly when I don't understand it in any meaningful sense anyway.

Stocks, I understand. (That doesn't mean I know where they're going to go.)
Options, I SORT OF understand but I have many questions that I'll ask at some point, and I'll ask the one that's foremost on my mind right now:

To what extent can I dictate the conditions of an options trade? For example, let's say that I have a firm belief that
SEAS will hit 60 dollars per share in three months. (No, I don't actually think that.) Can I buy an option to buy SEAS
at 25 dollars per share in three months? Or at any other value that I choose? Or is my selection limited by others?


Futures, I understand even less than options. Even if it might be simpler to understand in some respects, it's something that at this moment I have invested zero research time in so I need to avoid even thinking about futures until such time as I have some education.

I get the idea (and even here I could be wrong, very much so) that with futures, you're trading in products that have
not been delivered to the marketplace yet and speculating on its value increasing as the product (such as petroleum products) makes its way from production to the retail market.

I have read (and might believe) that a significant reason for the high prices we pay for gas at the pump is people speculating on petroleum futures, driving the price up between the wellhead and the gas pump.

I am surprised that there isn't one oil company that has chosen to not offer its products into the futures market,
and instead value it based on production and distribution costs, without speculators being allowed to jack up the price. I think that if one oil company did this, they would be selling gas much more cheaply than their competitors.

But I could also be getting mixed up between the futures and commodities markets.


When and if I develop any interest in these other markets and forms of trading, I'll make a serious effort to learn about
them before daring to risk a penny on any of them.

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 bobwest 
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Got some great replies there. Thanks!


So I guess i understand the pattern day trading and 3 day settlement rules pretty well. Good. It makes it less likely
that I will run afoul of them.


I understand that I need to develop good reasons for my picks. And be able to articulate them. Also good.

I understand that I need to not get attached to any particular brokerage or securities. Good again.

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of taking risks with a broker's money. Not yet. I don't ever want to get into a margin call situation and one way to avoid that risk is not to borrow money from a broker.

As for futures trading, right now it's scary enough trying to predict what's going to happen to any given stock TODAY alone. The idea of trying to see farther into the future and put money on it is positively alarming. So at least for the time being, futures trading is not for me.

Particularly when I don't understand it in any meaningful sense anyway.

Stocks, I understand. (That doesn't mean I know where they're going to go.)
Options, I SORT OF understand but I have many questions that I'll ask at some point, and I'll ask the one that's foremost on my mind right now:

To what extent can I dictate the conditions of an options trade? For example, let's say that I have a firm belief that
SEAS will hit 60 dollars per share in three months. (No, I don't actually think that.) Can I buy an option to buy SEAS
at 25 dollars per share in three months? Or at any other value that I choose? Or is my selection limited by others?


Futures, I understand even less than options. Even if it might be simpler to understand in some respects, it's something that at this moment I have invested zero research time in so I need to avoid even thinking about futures until such time as I have some education.

I get the idea (and even here I could be wrong, very much so) that with futures, you're trading in products that have
not been delivered to the marketplace yet and speculating on its value increasing as the product (such as petroleum products) makes its way from production to the retail market.

I have read (and might believe) that a significant reason for the high prices we pay for gas at the pump is people speculating on petroleum futures, driving the price up between the wellhead and the gas pump.

I am surprised that there isn't one oil company that has chosen to not offer its products into the futures market,
and instead value it based on production and distribution costs, without speculators being allowed to jack up the price. I think that if one oil company did this, they would be selling gas much more cheaply than their competitors.

But I could also be getting mixed up between the futures and commodities markets.


When and if I develop any interest in these other markets and forms of trading, I'll make a serious effort to learn about
them before daring to risk a penny on any of them.

A lot included here. Basically, more research would help. (Wouldn't it always? )

Just on a couple of things:

- You can buy an option if someone is willing to sell you one. You can sell one if someone is willing to buy it. In other words, there's a market, and market pricing for different options. So, yes, your "selection is limited by others." You may not be able to buy a given strike price (exercise price) if it's not offered, meaning, if no one is willing to sell it to you..... There's a lot to options, and more research is needed. I expect Wikipedia would help, it usually does.

- Futures. Gee, where to start? Probably Wikipedia would help.

"But I could also be getting mixed up between the futures and commodities markets. " -- The commodities markets are futures markets.

"I am surprised that there isn't one oil company that has chosen to not offer its products into the futures market,
and instead value it based on production and distribution costs, without speculators being allowed to jack up the price. I think that if one oil company did this, they would be selling gas much more cheaply than their competitors."

-- The economic reason that there are futures markets is that producers (originally of commodities) and buyers want to lock in a price for their delivery, and not be subject to future market risk (unexpected fluctuations up or down.) The futures markets allow them to offload that risk to traders who are willing to take it, because they are willing to take on the profit/loss opportunities. The mechanism is less important at this stage of understanding; the point is that futures markets were established to facilitate commerce and are essential to it. That's why oil companies take part in it. Sorry to put it this way, but your question basically implies that oil companies don't understand their own business very well, and in fact that they are fairly dumb. That's probably not right.

Prices for commodities like oil, or for anything else in the world, are determined by supply and demand. "Speculators" cannot set prices, nor jack them up for their convenience and profit. In other words, there's a market....

(There are futures markets for non-commodities as well: financial instruments such as indexes, bonds, etc. The point is still to offload future market risk to someone who is willing to try to profit from being right about it, and accepts the possibility of loss if they're wrong.)

-- It would be good to spend 60 minutes or so with Wikipedia to learn a little bit about these topics, just so you understand some of the context of the financial world that you are a part of, whether you ever have an interest in trading them or not.

-- Given that, you should absolutely not even think about trading either options or futures at this time. The leverage in both is extreme, and you would be amazed at how quickly you lost 100% of your account. By the way, with futures you can lose more than 100%. It may not be clear how that is possible, and it would be understandable if you found it puzzling.... A little more research would clear it all up. And if you're not too clear what "leverage" is and why it matters, well, that's part of the whole topic.

I'm not trying to criticize you, and I hope this hasn't come across that way. There's just a lot in all this, but with Google and Wikipedia and other resources, it is very easy to get clear enough on the basics.

Again, good luck in learning what you need to know, and hopefully in succeeding in your trading.

Bob.

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Carrerain4
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Thanks. That's good information and good advice.


Now on to today's trade report:

Yesterday I ended up buying, in total 4975 shares of WCPS. 175 at 1.05, the rest at 1.08, these being in one block.

Today I sold the entire 4975 shares at 1.11 via a sell order I placed early this morning. Yes, it went "all or nothing".

I got about 2.7 percent profit, about 150 bucks. Not a lot, but quite enough to satisfy me.

I realize that later in the day the stock went wild and peaked at 1.27. But I am happy to have gotten what I did, and
had absolutely no way to predict that it would go crazy later in the day. I set a goal, got it, and am happy with it. Nothing more.

Speculating about what I COULD have gotten out of it if I'd sold at the peak is pointless. And I do not intend to pursue extreme risks.


I've said all along that I'm not greedy and I'm not going to hold out for ridiculous returns.

And with this brokerage I don't have the option to use a trailing stop anyway, or I would have. In this case any trailing stop I might have set would have resulted in a few more cents per share at most. The afternoon chart was all over the place and upon taking a good look
at it, for any trailing stop to be useful, I wouild have to have set it wide enough that I would have seriously put ANY profit at risk.
At one point it hit 1.25 and then gave up 6 cents within minutes, only to rebound to 1.27 shortly thereafter.

I also had to rely on a day order to sell anyway, as I had to attend to business in town and was not available to track the action
all day anyway.

I don't suppose it would kill me to ask for more than a 3 cent gain the next time I go into this stock, if I do that. And I probably will,
once it drops back down again.



Given that I got my asking price, I bought at or below my intended buy price, and I made a profit, and in just one day,
I would characterize this as a completely successful trade.

I've traded only twice with my larger account and it has grown by 7 percent in less than two weeks.

I can't say I'm unhappy with that.


Oh, my running success rate:

I have 15 round trip trades logged in my logbook. 12 of them were profitable.

Of the three that were unprofitable, only one of them lost more than 100 dollars. The other two lost me less than 30 dollars each.

Though I can't say this is enough data to predict my future performance, it does tend to indicate that my criteria for selecting
my trades seems to be quite workable.

To me it has to be pretty obvious that the stock is going to go up in the near term or I won't buy into it. This is why futures and options really don't seem like they're for me.

There have been days when I could trade, and didn't, simply because I didn't see any opportunities that looked strong enough for me.

My cumulative earnings so far have been 5.5 percent in my smaller trading account, and 7 percent in the larger one.

Another thing that I have to consider for the future is that as the value of my funds (hopefully) grows, I'll have to focus on more heavily traded stocks where it isn't difficult to move large blocks of stock at once, as I've already encountered that problem one time even at this small scale I'm trading at now. I didn't get that 4800 share block right away. It just wasn't there due to low volume trading in the morning, but as the day picked up eventually that order was filled. However it was easy to sell 4750 shares the next day when volume picked up as prices started to rise.

And that is what will pose a challenge to me. (Among other things...) The more heavily traded stocks will likely be less volatile in their daily price action. While WCPS is proven to frequently give five, even 10 percent or more in daily action, based on recent history, I can't expect to find something comparable to that that trades in much larger volumes on an average day.

I guess I'll have some time to figure out my picking strategies for when I start scaling up my trades.

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  #152 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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Re yesterdays trade.

Did you follow your plan?

Looks to me like you chased the price.

Knowing that price moved as fast as it did, where was your stop loss?

Although you made a profit, are you reinforceing bad habits?

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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Carrerain4
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I had to be a little flexible, and I was. There was some price chasing going on but I set a max entry price for the stock at 1.10 but tried for 1.05 with the initial order. I got 175 shares for that but had to bump up to 1.08 to get the rest.

I got it within my set criteria. Pass.

Limited price chasing within established limits is acceptable to me. I simply can't be chasing prices WITHOUT
a defined maximum I wish to pay already firmly in mind.


My goal was to get 3 cents per share if I got my buy-in at a max of 1.10 per share. I believed that it could move to 1.13 in the day, and obviously it easily beat that number.

I got my desired gain. Pass.

I made a profit. Pass.

Due to the way my brokerage is structured, I can either have a stop loss OR a sell order in place, but NOT both at once.

Since I had to get away from the house, I placed a sell order based off of my buy price. I could have set a stop loss,
but my choice was to go for the profit rather than guarantee the loss.

I realize there is always a risk involved with not having an active stop loss, but I had to make a choice and accept the
risks that come with it.


Switching to Tradeking will likely help me to be able to both have a stop loss in place as well as a limit order to sell out at if the price goes my way.

But I don't have that feature available to me now so there's no point in worrying about it.

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 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post
Since I had to get away from the house, I placed a sell order based off of my buy price. I could have set a stop loss,
but my choice was to go for the profit rather than guarantee the loss.

I realize there is always a risk involved with not having an active stop loss, but I had to make a choice and accept the
risks that come with it.

So what you are doing is accepting an unknown risk to achieve a known profit.

To my way of thinking is you should be doing it the other way around.

I put protection of capital as my number one priority. Without capital you can’t play the game. Define you risk and protect your capital.

It worked fine this time but you are reinforcing a strategy that will one day cost you.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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 zander931 
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I got my desired gain. Pass.

I made a profit. Pass.

Due to the way my brokerage is structured, I can either have a stop loss OR a sell order in place, but NOT both at once.

Since I had to get away from the house, I placed a sell order based off of my buy price. I could have set a stop loss,
but my choice was to go for the profit rather than guarantee the loss.

Thanks for keeping up with the journal, I pop in and read it on occasion.

Keep in mind trading isn't so much about the outcome, rather about the process. Not using a stop loss is a bad process for most. (Not utilizing a stop loss is o.k. if you're sitting right there at your computer, ready to eliminate the trade if your hypothesis is invalidated, but making a habit of not utilizing a stop loss and then leaving your station will eventually burn you, imo).

You're essentially playing Russian roulette. Just because you won the game once doesn't mean you made an intelligent decision in regards to your safety. "I made a profit...pass" is analogous to "I'm not dead...pass...". It'd be even less intelligent to continue playing the game.

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  #156 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
I made a profit. Pass.

You will learn eventually that some of the best trades may not end in a profit and some of the worst trades can be big winners.

When a trader has limited capital they tend to focus on the money. Instead focus on the process and learning how to trade the best, learn how to cut losers quick, how to manage your risk, and learn when to press the gas. I am not advocating one method over another as there are multiple methods and ways to make money in the market. But trading is a game of keeping what you make.

You also have to keep an open mind and understand that you can be wrong and still make money and be right and lose. Some analysts have the right ideas, but they cannot trade their ideas. Some traders have wrong ideas but make lots of money.

Nothing in the market or trading is black and white, everything is a foaming sea of gray.

As I learn more, I have come to an understanding that I know very little, but I have been able to determine that there are small windows where I have an edge and my job is to operate during those windows. And to not when the window is closed. Yesterday was a prime example, I took some trades out of boredom. The only thing that saved me was cutting losers quick and realizing I had no edge at that moment.

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  #157 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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@Carrerain4, congrats on making money. The question is not so much about whether to use a stop or not, it's more about, "what's the worst that could happen?"

Risk control is the hardest thing to do, but the most essential. There are several ways to do it: (1) hedge with something else, (2) buy premium, (3) use a stop, or (4) accept the risk of losing everything. There are times when each is appropriate. For #4, with a $1 stock, 5000 shares, you are literally risking $5000, even if it's the tiniest chance. If you're short calls in a biotech and it finds a cure for cancer, you will lose everything in your account, maybe more. As long as you truly understand that this CAN happen, and are okay with this, then you deem it worth the risk due to there being such a minuscule probability.

I am going home long today, hedge partially in some things, completely in others, and none in others. If I have to reduce my risk to the point that I can't make money except in an outsized move, I might as well not put the trade on. Sometimes we become so focused on not losing money that we don't take enough risk to actually make money. But limiting the risk is necessary in the event of a worst case scenario, either that or be completely ok with actually losing an undefined amount, which could in some cases be everything. However, a poor way to use a stop is to just put it in and hope it doesn't get hit. Doing that is not really an effective strategy. Best of luck and a good weekend to you.

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  #158 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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My current opinion on the usage of a stop loss is that you need to consider the overall stability of both the stock and the stability and condition of the company. I would consider the chance of incurring a catastrophic value loss in the stock
of a company that is healthy to be a low probability event on the order of being struck by lightning or winning the lottery.

I believe that a worst LIKELY scenario would mean I'd have to be invested for days or weeks in order to reach the break even point.

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  #159 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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Carrerain4 View Post
My current opinion on the usage of a stop loss is that you need to consider the overall stability of both the stock and the stability and condition of the company. I would consider the chance of incurring a catastrophic value loss in the stock
of a company that is healthy to be a low probability event on the order of being struck by lightning or winning the lottery.

I believe that a worst LIKELY scenario would mean I'd have to be invested for days or weeks in order to reach the break even point.

Don't take this as negative criticism, but: it will be a helpful and therapeutic experience for you when you have your first big loss, which, no matter how good you are, you eventually will.

You will have one whether you have picked a good company or bad, whether you were right about the company or not, whether you were right on the market or not. It just comes. It comes to everyone.

And then you will understand a little better what the actual risks are. The worst likely scenario is that you will never get your loss back and will have to write it off and move on. And that's a very good learning experience.

You will also have a different belief about loss and risk control. That just comes, too.

I do wish you luck and good trading, and I hope that your learning experiences don't take as long to sink in as mine did....

Good luck, and have a good weekend.

Bob.

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  #160 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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I accept all risks that come with trading. I accept the fact that there are factors that are beyond my control and that
no mitigating factors short of total withdrawal from the market will stop.

I accept the fact that there is a learning curve and it will probably never end.


I accept the HIGH probability that the day will come when I realize "I really should NOT have bought that!".


I attempt to control the factors that (a) I can control and (b) understand.


I accept the fact that my trading methodology at this point carries high risks with it due to the fact that I am usually
performing single trades that utilize ALL of my available trading funds. This is (by my personal criteria, not necessarily yours) a calculated and necessary risk. Until such a time comes as the costs of trading (fees and commissions) become a very minor factor in my profit-taking objectives, I have to do it this way OR will have to reduce my exposure AND, unquestionably, reduce my profitability potential as well, which reduces rate of growth.

I am here to take acceptable risks. If I don't want to take on risks, I would not be trading.

The day will come when I can (and will) be able to not risk all of my available funds on a single security. But due to
the small overall value of my trading accounts at this time, that day has not yet come. Limiting my trades to
not put my whole fund at risk at once means that I'll lose profit due to excessive fees. I am not willing to do that.

I am here to take acceptable risks. If I don't want to take on risks, I would not be trading.

All this is subject to change. I'm still new at this and am learning. I think I've been very fortunate that at this exact
point, 13 of the (now 16) trades I've booked have been profitable. (Yes, I made money again today, this time with
another trip into IAG. I got another modest profit, nothing to write home about, but still it was a pre-planned trade that was executed at the exact buy and sell values I laid out (actually wrote them down before trading) and so it would qualify as a successful trade by any definition.

I now understand picking your entry and exit points. I'm doing it. And every time I've done it so far, it has worked
as intended, with the only variable factor being how long it took to achieve the intended results.

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  #161 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Carrerain4 View Post
I had to be a little flexible, and I was. There was some price chasing going on but I set a max entry price for the stock at 1.10 but tried for 1.05 with the initial order. I got 175 shares for that but had to bump up to 1.08 to get the rest.

I got it within my set criteria. Pass.

Limited price chasing within established limits is acceptable to me. I simply can't be chasing prices WITHOUT
a defined maximum I wish to pay already firmly in mind.


My goal was to get 3 cents per share if I got my buy-in at a max of 1.10 per share. I believed that it could move to 1.13 in the day, and obviously it easily beat that number.

I got my desired gain. Pass.

I made a profit. Pass.

Due to the way my brokerage is structured, I can either have a stop loss OR a sell order in place, but NOT both at once.

Since I had to get away from the house, I placed a sell order based off of my buy price. I could have set a stop loss,
but my choice was to go for the profit rather than guarantee the loss.

I realize there is always a risk involved with not having an active stop loss, but I had to make a choice and accept the
risks that come with it.


Switching to Tradeking will likely help me to be able to both have a stop loss in place as well as a limit order to sell out at if the price goes my way.

But I don't have that feature available to me now so there's no point in worrying about it.

I have lurked on your thread...I think you viewed my assessment of SEAS as negative because I gave it only a 30% chance of success at reaching your target of $22.00. But there are many sick people that would take a 30% chance of beating their disease...no I am not suggesting you are sick .... and you did take a decent profit for your efforts.

Then I saw you pick WPCS...I actually liked that pick for a swing...I still do.



You had picked it in the throat of that Bollinger band squeeze.... but you did not know that. It rose above the upper bollie band and today fell back which is normal...but this still looks fine.

I don't think you are using Stop loss orders right....You should not use a Sell order combined with a stop-loss. If you think about it...the sell order defeats the purpose of the stop-loss.

Let me explain....

The stop-loss prevents a sudden slide in price...Frankly I prefer a LIMIT STOP LOSS...not a plain STOP LOSS.

What is a limit stop loss? It sets a limit range that you would be willing to sell at....

Say your stock's price was say $10.00 and you thought it was going to rise but you set your stop-loss at $9.95 and the price had a sudden downward spike to $9.00...a market order would activate to sell your stock at the best price you could get...maybe that will be $9.00.

Then you curse are the price shoots back to where you had set your stop-loss.

If you set a LIMIT STOP LOSS then you would have your STOP LOSS still at $9.95. However, you give it a range to be a valid sell order...say $9.92...

The same spike would fly through without tripping the order to sell, you can then watch it rise and make a real decision to sell or not as it rose from that spike....you have more control...you could even cancel that Limit Stop Loss if you felt that spike was crazy.

If on the other hand, the stock slowly drifted through this range that you have set then you would be stopped out and usually a slow movement through a range shows more serious intent of a failing stock.

Now why is a stop loss (or a Limit Stop Loss) and a sell order not such a good idea???

By setting a stop-loss type order you are limiting the downside losses BUT NOT the upside gains.

Once you set a sell price you limit the upside gains


So, What I do when I figure that I have reached an acceptable profit...I just set a Limit Stop Loss order that is all....if the price rises I just change the stop loss price higher...I keep on adjusting that stop loss price higher as the stock price rises....each adjustment pretty well guarantees more money in my pocket.

EG. Let us say I buy at $10.00 and it rises to $10.25...Perhaps I would set a Limit stop loss to $10.08 - 10.10 range.....the price rises to $10.30...then I could raise the limit stop loss to $10.18 - $10.20.... the price rises to $10.40...then I could raise the limit stop loss to $10.28 - $10.30....the price could fall back to $10.35... I do nothing but watch and hope for this price to rise again.....

I never set a sell price because it is not necessary... that would be limiting your gains. When the swing has ended it will reverse direction and trip your stop loss.

See...you limit your losses....but not your gains.

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  #162 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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Underexposed, thank you very much for your comments and input. It's just the sort of thing that really helps me to learn in a very 'real world' manner. Relating my actual experience to charts, etc.


But, please understand that my current brokerage has very limited buying and selling order types.

I didn't use a trailing stop or trailing limit order because they don't offer that.

And, they don't allow you to place both buy and sell orders on one security at the same time.

So I could have a limit sell order or a stop loss, but not both.


Otherwise, I would have done it more like you suggested.

I'm not rejecting the idea, I simply can't implement it through Vanguard.


The point at which I can transfer over to Tradeking is when I can meet the minimum funding requirement for a Tradeking account, which I believe is 2000 dollars.

My smaller account isn't up to 2000 dollars yet. But it is getting closer.


Yeah, I could transfer money from my larger account (one of my retirement accounts) into it to fatten it up,
but one of my personal rules that I have sworn never to break is that the retirement account is just that, a
retirement account and no money shall be siphoned out of it unless it is a dire emergency and I've tapped out all my other funding sources. I am free to try to grow that retirement account by actively trading in it, but money in
that account STAYS in that account even if I should be so fortunate as to turn it into millions within months.
It's not money for me to touch until retirement.

And, a big part of this whole trading adventure is to see what I can make of the accounts I started out with,
without making any additional outside contributions into them. So just adding money to it (which I could do)
would be cheating on myself and I am not inclined to do that.

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  #163 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014

I am not saying that you are a liar but I find it very hard to understand that any brokerage does not allow a Limit-Stop-loss order.

I am not saying to use an Automatic trailing stop loss...you can do the same thing mechanically simply by reviewing your existing order(s) and electing to change that order.

Here is a screen shot of an order entry that I use...I doubt that this is different much from any order entry for any brokerage.



As you can see in this drop down list box....there is no selection for a Limit Sell on Stop(Stop Loss) or Limit Buy on Stop(Stop Buy)....also there is no "trailing function" anywhere on the selection window.

So...you select (in my case) "Sell on Stop"



then you enter the limit price....if you did just that you have set a normal Stop Loss

to make it a Limit Stop Loss then you fill in the box on the bottom with the minimum to the range you want

In this case if I entered this order I would have set a limit stop loss order for 100 shares of TD on the TSX exchange at a price ranging from $55.50 to $56.00

to make a change just adjust the prices when you want to....it is manual.

If I have insulted you by this post....I apologize in advance but you seem to be a visual guy to me.

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  #164 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

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  #165 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

well that is pretty limiting then....BTW I don't day trade at all...but I still use limit stop loss orders as I described as an exit from any length of trade.

Oh well that is how I would use stop-loss {sigh}

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  #166 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Underexposed View Post
I am not saying that you are a liar but I find it very hard to understand that any brokerage does not allow a Limit-Stop-loss order.

I am not saying to use an Automatic trailing stop loss...you can do the same thing mechanically simply by reviewing your existing order(s) and electing to change that order.

Here is a screen shot of an order entry that I use...I doubt that this is different much from any order entry for any brokerage.



As you can see in this drop down list box....there is no selection for a Limit Sell on Stop(Stop Loss) or Limit Buy on Stop(Stop Buy)....also there is no "trailing function" anywhere on the selection window.

So...you select (in my case) "Sell on Stop"



then you enter the limit price....if you did just that you have set a normal Stop Loss

to make it a Limit Stop Loss then you fill in the box on the bottom with the minimum to the range you want

In this case if I entered this order I would have set a limit stop loss order for 100 shares of TD on the TSX exchange at a price ranging from $55.50 to $56.00

to make a change just adjust the prices when you want to....it is manual.

If I have insulted you by this post....I apologize in advance but you seem to be a visual guy to me.


Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

I may be missing something but aren't you talking about a Stop Limit @Underexposed?

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  #167 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


tturner86 View Post
I may be missing something but aren't you talking about a Stop Limit @Underexposed?

I think there is a confusion of nomenclature some times....

As I showed in those screen shots (which is strictly for stocks, nothing else)...

Using the "sell on stop" option then you would set a limit price for your stop loss and this would be a normal "Stop Loss" order, I have no idea if you just use the Market instead of limit...it would probably issue a market order to sell...which is obviously not what you want.

Then if you enter a number (less than the limit) into the Stop Limit...then you set a range that you want the sell order valid.

So say you have a stock with a price of $10/share....you set a Stop Loss at $9.50 to protect you overnight for example.

But you wake up and find the stock sold at $8.50 ???? WTF!!.....but you look at what happened and found the stock's opening price was at $8.75...which automatically caused a market order to sell your stock at the best price it can get...you are now in a queue to be sold and eventually it sells at $8.50.

But we know that often that short spike can even be generated by a market maker in those low penny stock so they can trip any stop loss orders and then they gobble up any shares they can get..... also you usually see that despite the plunge in the morning...often (not always) the stock price recovers somewhat and you may at least get a better price for your shares even if you believe the plunge was justified and though it has recovered a bit more drops can be expected.

So how can you protect yourself from unscrupulous manipulation and plunges that do recover?

Well you put a limit on the stop-loss (Limit stop loss order)

Coming back to our $10.00 price and desire for protection we set the Stop Loss as before however we set a limit as to when the order is valid to sell. For example: we set a range of $9.45 to $9.50...the sell order is only valid within that range...above and below the order is cancelled.

It is my experience that if a price takes minutes to pass through that range most if not all of your shares will sell and you will sell your shares at an acceptable price to you.

If the price plunges below without selling in your range...or even if some but not all sell in that range...the sale of the shares will stop....the order though is still valid if the price passed through and rose back up into that range...which can happen.

If you see the price rising but your shares are unsold....you may elect to allow the shares to sell when they rise back into your limit stop loss range.... or you cancel that order and enter a new order to sell the share to take advantage of that brief rise so you get a better price... or you may cancel the limit stop loss if in your opinion the price will rise back to higher than your stop loss ( probably what I would do is change the limit stop loss values at a level below the rise from the plunge and manually adjusting those numbers as the price rises and selling at least a better price if it falls again.

By setting a LIMIT Stop Loss...in the event of a dramatic drop in price, you retain some degree of control...with an ordinary stop loss you have no control over the price that the stock is sold.

My brokerage calls what I describe as a Limit Stop Loss...other brokerages may call it something else I suppose.

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  #168 (permalink)
Limitless100
New York, New York
 
 
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@Underexposed you provide great information in your posts. Thank you!

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  #169 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

Which Order To Use? Stop-Loss Or Stop-Limit Orders

@Carrerain4 should be able to use a Stop Limit to accomplish what @Underexposed has described.

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  #170 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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Yeah, that was still more good information. Much appreciated.

And, still more reasons for me to migrate to a more "full featured" brokerage as soon as I'm able to do it.


I've observed that "morning dip" very often. I've seen it so much that I'd be inclined to ride it out, knowing
that it is almost always a VERY temporary price dip and now that you've explained that this is most likely a move
made by a market maker to trigger stop losses, tank the price, and then buy shares on the cheap, it all makes sense.

I wonder how much money (and how many shares) are involved in the market maker's move to make the price move like that. Obviously those numbers could vary dramatically depending on market cap, number of shares outstanding,
share price, and other factors, but at a minimum, I wonder how much it takes to do that.

I'm starting to think that my style of trading is becoming more "swing" and less "day" as a quick review of my entire trade history to date, and checking on those stocks since I traded them, shows me that every single one of them
had substantial profit potential that I could have exploited with more patience and a well though out trailing stop.

Yeah, I know, hindsight is always 20/20, but a more educated trading strategy combined with a brokerage that gives me more
ways to structure a buy or sell order could have made 100 percent of my trades more profitable.

So, yes, I am sure that I am learning. But still limited (a lot!) by my brokerage's very limited range of buy/sell order types.
A problem that will soon be fixed by a brokerage switch.

I no longer feel like I have to be out of the market by the end of the day. Going overnight or multi-day is fine.

But I am seeking significant short term gains on a repetitive basis. If I can get those short term gains then that
is still what I would prefer to get.

Just getting 1 percent profit, trading once a week rolling the profit back into the trading fund, and repeating the process for ten trades yields 11 percent profit.

If you held on for a month to get 8 percent, and managed to do it again next month, you'd also net 11 percent
but I think it will be harder to get 8 percent in one month than 1 percent in 1 week.

So I'll swing when I need to but prefer to keep my trades within the day if they meet my profit targets.

My target is 2 percent after fees for a day trade, and HOPE for more in a swing trade. But I'll still take 2 percent.

I've been doing better than that on average.

So far.

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  #171 (permalink)
 deaddog 
Legendary Market Wizard
Prince George BC Canada
 
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you are still focused on results not on process.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #172 (permalink)
Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
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You're probably right but you can't really expect me to become a professional in just a few weeks.

This WILL take time. So be patient. I'm learning, one day at a time, one transaction at a time, and, yes, one article to study at a time.


I've learned a fair amount that I didn't know when I started out. It's reasonable to expect that I will continue to learn
and make adjustments to my strategies and rules as I go. The simple fact that I'm trying to improve those strategies and rules tends to indicate that I am increasingly focused on the process.

If the process is right, the results will follow...and be favorable.

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  #173 (permalink)
Limitless100
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Carrerain4 View Post
You're probably right but you can't really expect me to become a professional in just a few weeks.

This WILL take time. So be patient. I'm learning, one day at a time, one transaction at a time, and, yes, one article to study at a time.


I've learned a fair amount that I didn't know when I started out. It's reasonable to expect that I will continue to learn
and make adjustments to my strategies and rules as I go. The simple fact that I'm trying to improve those strategies and rules tends to indicate that I am increasingly focused on the process.

If the process is right, the results will follow...and be favorable.

Well said.

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  #174 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
Chicago, Illinois
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
You're probably right but you can't really expect me to become a professional in just a few weeks.

This WILL take time. So be patient. I'm learning, one day at a time, one transaction at a time, and, yes, one article to study at a time.


I've learned a fair amount that I didn't know when I started out. It's reasonable to expect that I will continue to learn
and make adjustments to my strategies and rules as I go. The simple fact that I'm trying to improve those strategies and rules tends to indicate that I am increasingly focused on the process.

If the process is right, the results will follow...and be favorable.

We do not expect you to be a professional so soon. The problem is that you are setting goals that you are not professional enough to have control over. When you are new to trading, your goals should be related to things that you can control. For example, you have a theory about the market or about how you view the market and you test it with your trades. Earning an arbitrary amount of 2% is not a tangible way to improve your trading. What can you learn from making 1.99% that you couldn't learn from making 2%? What will you learn by not reaching your goals? Goals should be tied to a process, not a cash/percentage value. Once you have tested your theories and find some that you truly believe in on a long term basis (ie: even when you don't make money doing it) then you should shift your focus onto cash/percentage values. Even then, 2% is a deceptively hard thing to do. You do not seem to grasp that yet.

Yes, results follow good processes. However, the process takes months for stock savantes and years/a lifetime for the average person.

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  #175 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Portland, Oregon
 
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We commonly hear that traders should develop and stick to "a process". But what is a trading process? I would argue that, across trading styles and time horizons, there are four components essential to any complete trading process:

1) Preparing - What you do to identify and exploit opportunity in markets, including observation, research, idea testing, trade structuring, portfolio construction, and trade planning.

2) Performing - What you do to initiate and manage positions in the market, including sizing, risk management, entry and exit execution, and adjusting to the ongoing stream of news, data releases, and market movements.

3) Reviewing - What you do to examine individual trades and overall trading to learn from successes and mistakes and to reexamine ideas about markets.

4) Revamping - What you do to translate your reviews into concrete goals and actions that make you more prepared and aid your future performance.

Together, these process elements embody a kind of deliberate practice that yields ever-expanding expertise.

As the Buffett quote above implies, when a trader develops intrinsic gratification from processes of discovery and mastery, it is much easier to weather the ups and downs of short-term performance.

The most common shortcoming I see among traders is not that they let their emotions run away from them and lose their discipline. Rather, they truncate the third and fourth elements above and spend almost all their time preparing and performing. As a result, they rarely conduct the thorough reviews that lead to ongoing learning--and they even more rarely translate any cursory reviews into systematic efforts at self-improvement.

Preparing and performing require immersion in markets. Reviewing and revamping require a step away from markets to reflect upon preparation and performance. Joined together, the process elements yield a sense of growth, development, and ongoing adaptation to changing markets.

When success is measured in terms of mastery, one can profit handsomely even during periods of trading loss. That is an important trading edge.

More Info: TraderFeed: The Essence of a Trading Process

Even more info: TraderFeed: Core Ideas in Trading Psychology: Trading as a Performance Activity

- Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D.

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Carrerain4
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Brief update: I have a small amount of money tied up in WPCS again. I bought it last week and have set a target price of 1.25 at which point it will sell.

in the days since, trading volume has been low and it has not been very active. It's not profitable for me at the present time.

But I'm going to hang onto it until I get my price. Even if that takes many weeks.

Due to the labor day holiday, I won't have settled funds to trade with until Thursday so no buying today.

I'm just observing the market and writing down my impressions of it.

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  #177 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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After my current transactions have closed, I'm moving my accounts to Tradeking or some other low cost, quality brokerage, as the cost of my trades with Vanguard are now 20 dollars per trade! 40 dollars per round trip!
That's the highest I've ever heard of for any online brokerage.

I may keep my IRA account with Vanguard for easy access to their very good selection of high yield funds, but the active trading account will be transferring as soon as I sell out (unfortunately I'll be bit by that whopping 20 dollar fee when I sell out) and the funds settle.

I'm thinking Tradeking or IB. Got any other recommendations? I want low trading costs for stocks, and a variety
of order types, such as trailing stops and stop loss limits. I have seen that IB has a truly impressive list of order types and at the moment, I'm inclined to give IB a shot even though I have set up an (unfunded) account with TradeKing.

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  #178 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
as the cost of my trades with Vanguard are now 20 dollars per trade! 40 dollars per round trip!

I may keep my IRA account with Vanguard for easy access to their very good selection of high yield funds, but the active trading account will be transferring as soon as I sell out (unfortunately I'll be bit by that whopping 20 dollar fee when I sell out) and the funds settle.

I'm thinking Tradeking or IB. Got any other recommendations? I want low trading costs for stocks, and a variety
of order types, such as trailing stops and stop loss limits. I have seen that IB has a truly impressive list of order types and at the moment, I'm inclined to give IB a shot even though I have set up an (unfunded) account with TradeKing.

IB is good IME. For their simple pricing, it's $1 for a low quantity of stocks. That's $2 r/t. Can't be beat for retail.

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  #179 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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josh View Post
IB is good IME. For their simple pricing, it's $1 for a low quantity of stocks. That's $2 r/t. Can't be beat for retail.

Whats the min needed to fund a IB account?

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  #180 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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As for today's trades, all my funds were settled if not still tied up in a stock.

I left them alone as I simply could not get any feel for which direction ANYTHING was headed today.

Sometimes it's better to stay on the sidelines than to just guess randomly.

I want to spend some time this evening reviewing the day's gainers and loser and check them for recent news and
developments so that I can understand WHY they moved the way they did.

Maybe I'll start to develop a sense for what causes price movement. Why does one stock sit there and do nothing at all today, hardly any shares moving, while another stock with a similar company in the same industry can be going wild at the same time?

That's a rhetorical question. No need for YOU to answer it. But it would be in my best interests to seek out the answers to that sort of question on my own.

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  #181 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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As for today's trades, all my funds were settled if not still tied up in a stock.

I left them alone as I simply could not get any feel for which direction ANYTHING was headed today.

Sometimes it's better to stay on the sidelines than to just guess randomly.

I want to spend some time this evening reviewing the day's gainers and loser and check them for recent news and
developments so that I can understand WHY they moved the way they did.

Maybe I'll start to develop a sense for what causes price movement. Why does one stock sit there and do nothing at all today, hardly any shares moving, while another stock with a similar company in the same industry can be going wild at the same time?

That's a rhetorical question. No need for YOU to answer it. But it would be in my best interests to seek out the answers to that sort of question on my own.

But I will throw some answers.

Usually it is news related. Either to the company or the market. Today was a major data drop in terms of reports and the ECB announcement. Some stocks are more affected by certain market reports then others.

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  #182 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
As for today's trades, all my funds were settled if not still tied up in a stock.

I left them alone as I simply could not get any feel for which direction ANYTHING was headed today.

Sometimes it's better to stay on the sidelines than to just guess randomly.

I want to spend some time this evening reviewing the day's gainers and loser and check them for recent news and
developments so that I can understand WHY they moved the way they did.

Maybe I'll start to develop a sense for what causes price movement. Why does one stock sit there and do nothing at all today, hardly any shares moving, while another stock with a similar company in the same industry can be going wild at the same time?

That's a rhetorical question. No need for YOU to answer it. But it would be in my best interests to seek out the answers to that sort of question on my own.

I think it is wise to take a step back and reflect. There is no shortage of advice here..not too much that conflicts with each other but still you must sift through the ashes and keep what you like and discard the rest.

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 josh 
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Whats the min needed to fund a IB account?

I don't use it for day trading obviously, but I believe the minimum is 10K.

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  #184 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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I think it is wise to take a step back and reflect. There is no shortage of advice here..not too much that conflicts with each other but still you must sift through the ashes and keep what you like and discard the rest.

That's what I'm doing.

I need a REASON to put money into any given security. And it needs to be more than just a hunch or a feeling.

I think that the majority of the transactions I've made that turned out to be profitable would be easy to justify,
relating to news and events that gave me good reasons to believe that the stock would move upwards.

When SEAS tanked, I fully expected it to rebound somewhat. With no evidence that the company was about to go bankrupt,
and in fact had only reported that it was about 6 percent less profitable than last year, I would never think that it would have
continued to lose value after the first day or so after the news. And though it still has not recovered to my previously set target
of 21 dollars per share or more, I still think it will do so. But rebounding can take time. I believe my decision was rational.


But others, not so much. I've made money on some transactions and can't say WHY the stock moved up instead
of down, and THAT is a situation that I need to address.

I've also lost some money on some stocks that I really expected to climb, and was surprised when it didn't happen,
or, perhaps, in one or two cases, I just went in without a clue and hoped the coin landed heads up.

That's no way to assure consistent returns!

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 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
That's what I'm doing.

I need a REASON to put money into any given security. And it needs to be more than just a hunch or a feeling.

I think that the majority of the transactions I've made that turned out to be profitable would be easy to justify,
relating to news and events that gave me good reasons to believe that the stock would move upwards.

When SEAS tanked, I fully expected it to rebound somewhat. With no evidence that the company was about to go bankrupt,
and in fact had only reported that it was about 6 percent less profitable than last year, I would never think that it would have
continued to lose value after the first day or so after the news. And though it still has not recovered to my previously set target
of 21 dollars per share or more, I still think it will do so. But rebounding can take time. I believe my decision was rational.


But others, not so much. I've made money on some transactions and can't say WHY the stock moved up instead
of down, and THAT is a situation that I need to address.

I've also lost some money on some stocks that I really expected to climb, and was surprised when it didn't happen,
or, perhaps, in one or two cases, I just went in without a clue and hoped the coin landed heads up.

That's no way to assure consistent returns!

hahaha...well so far I was correct about it not reaching $22 yet and that was my prediction....you did well at what you did and cleared a profit.

Now my prediction still holds as far as hitting $22 .... from my TA on the chart I would say it is going to go sideways for a while yet and may drift negative.

I do not doubt that eventually it may rise to $22 or higher....but it is not clear from what I see yet.

NOW here is the difference between you and I....I have a method for evaluating my choices...it is not perfect but my batting average is pretty good. You are making most of your decisions on the basis of gut feeling. Don't take this as being nasty... you are still in an embryonic stage and as you say and I applaud you for it...you have a lot to learn.

And that learning comes slowly...took me 20 years to get where I am now in TA and I am still refining what I do.

NOW I am not saying to copy me...copying someone else is not a key to being good at something. You should be receptive to new ideas and test them...but never accept them as gospel....make your own gospel.

You have shown something that does impress me for your experience. Your picks are quite reasonable so as I see.

WPCS is a case in point...



I don't particularly like the fundamentals of this company but I do like this chart.

You say you will hold til $1.25....will looking at the chart there is a huge resistance at $1.23...if it makes past $1.23 the next resistance is at about $1.40.

If I were you I would not sell if it makes it past $1.23 and gets to $1.25....I might use a limit stop-loss as I described before and play it to $1.40 if it gets there.

See the difference between us....I have a reason fore my play....I think you are going more on a gut feel.

It takes time but you will eventually replace gut feel with something more substantial.

Good Trading

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  #186 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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I agree with you on all counts.

I'm still largely a "gut based" trader but not to the extent I was even a few weeks ago. And as I learn more, I become
less "gut based" and more logic based.


Another pick I'm making is my favorite gold miner, IAG, which is now down to 3.61.

Since the company is apparently healthy and has had some good news releases lately, my belief is that the only reason
for its having given up 10 percent in the last week is the recent dip in gold prices. It's tracking the gold price pretty nicely.

I believe that gold prices will be rebounding shortly BUT I'm short on logically explainable reasons to justify that belief, admittedly. However I will say that if I had to find a reason to justify my belief that gold prices will rise soon, it is
because the US economy is showing signs of picking up as indicated by the recent improvement in the unemployment numbers. More people working means more demand for consumer electronics, most of which use some gold in their circuits. More people working also means more people who can afford some luxury items, such as gold jewelry, watches, etc.

When the job market starts looking better, I expect gold prices to follow. Thus, I expect gold mining concerns to prosper as well.

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  #187 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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Carrerain4 View Post



BUT I'm short on logically explainable reasons to justify that belief, admittedly. However I will say that if I had to find a reason to justify my belief that gold prices will rise soon, it is............

Here is a quote from John Murphy author and face of Stockcharts.com you might want to consider.
Quoting 

You can talk all you want about what a stock should be doing or why it isn't doing what it should be doing. You can talk about inflation, interest rates, earnings, and investor expectations. Ultimately, however, it comes down to the picture. Is the stock going up or down? Knowing the reasons behind a stock's movement is interesting, but not critical. If your stock goes up on a given day, they won't take your money away from you if you don't know why it went up. And if you can explain why it went down, they won't give you back your lost money.All that really matters is a picture, a simple line on a chart. The trick to visual investing is learning to tell the difference between what is going up and what is going down.

--John Murphy


"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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Carrerain4
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deaddog View Post
Here is a quote from John Murphy author and face of Stockcharts.com you might want to consider.

That's nice. It's a very simple way of stating the very thing I'm fighting with.

Up or down? Or stay the same? The price is going to do one, two, or all three of those things soon. Guaranteed.

But, when, which, and how much? Ah, those are the questions that aren't so hard to ask but are not so easy to answer!

I have previously stated my moderate skepticism for trading based on technical indicators. To me it still comes down to the basic question, "What are most of the people who are holding or trading this stock thinking right now and what will they be thinking in the next (seconds, minutes, hours, days, or weeks)?

I don't know how reliable technical indicators can be at predicting whether or not a lot of people want to buy or sell.

But I'm trying to learn them. It's worth it to have EVERY tool in the shed that you can get your hands on. Technical
indicator understanding would quite possibly be a good tool to have.

I have a fair number of market news sources to look at, but it can really be very time consuming to filter through literally hundreds of news releases and articles that hit the site every morning and throughout the day. (Such as at Stock Market Quotes and News : Equities, Indexes, Commodities, Forex on 4-traders.com) It's easy to miss a game-changing news article, particularly when they seem to be releasing dozens of news articles every minute.

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  #189 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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To me it still comes down to the basic question, "What are most of the people who are holding or trading this stock thinking right now and what will they be thinking in the next (seconds, minutes, hours, days, or weeks)?

There in lies the problem. You can't possibly know what everyone else is thinking. Every trade is a transaction between two parties and both think the other is wrong.

The best you can do is watch the price and see what it is doing. Take a guess at where it will be next and bail quickly if you are wrong.

I don't use indicators. I feel that the price has to move before the indicator does. So just watch what price does.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #190 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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WPCS hit my target price of 1.25 and I sold at that point. (2200 shares) It peaked very shortly thereafter at 1.31 but I got my 7 cents per share and the peak was very brief. I honestly think that if I'd hovered over the button and tried to manually hold out for a better price, I would have had a hard time doing it as I'd be inclined to react to a drop of a few cents with "wait and see" in the hopes that it would later go even higher. And in the end I'd probably not have done as well as just picking a price and letting auto execution get it for me.



Granted, it may limit my ability to extend my profits even higher, but I feel safer by taking a personal sense of excitement
and nervousness out of the equation. Trade without passion. Passion gets you in trouble.


I got 6 percent not counting fees. The new larger fee (20 bucks!) made a noticeable dent but it was still rather profitable.

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  #191 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
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Carrerain4 View Post
WPCS hit my target price of 1.25 and I sold at that point. (2200 shares) It peaked very shortly thereafter at 1.31 but I got my 7 cents per share and the peak was very brief. I honestly think that if I'd hovered over the button and tried to manually hold out for a better price, I would have had a hard time doing it as I'd be inclined to react to a drop of a few cents with "wait and see" in the hopes that it would later go even higher. And in the end I'd probably not have done as well as just picking a price and letting auto execution get it for me.



Granted, it may limit my ability to extend my profits even higher, but I feel safer by taking a personal sense of excitement
and nervousness out of the equation. Trade without passion. Passion gets you in trouble.


I got 6 percent not counting fees. The new larger fee (20 bucks!) made a noticeable dent but it was still rather profitable.

congratulations on reaching your objective....during this day WPCS reached $1.39 so my prediction of $1.40 was pretty good too........

WPCS International Inc., WPCS Advanced Chart - (NASDAQ) WPCS, WPCS International Inc. Stock Price - BigCharts.com

You made a pretty good pick....it is falling back now but may rise again in the next week. Good luck on your next pick.

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  #192 (permalink)
 shodson 
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tturner86 View Post
Whats the min needed to fund a IB account?

IB account minimums - https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=4969

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  #193 (permalink)
 shodson 
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Carrerain4 View Post
After my current transactions have closed, I'm moving my accounts to Tradeking or some other low cost, quality brokerage, as the cost of my trades with Vanguard are now 20 dollars per trade! 40 dollars per round trip!
That's the highest I've ever heard of for any online brokerage.

I may keep my IRA account with Vanguard for easy access to their very good selection of high yield funds, but the active trading account will be transferring as soon as I sell out (unfortunately I'll be bit by that whopping 20 dollar fee when I sell out) and the funds settle.

I'm thinking Tradeking or IB. Got any other recommendations? I want low trading costs for stocks, and a variety
of order types, such as trailing stops and stop loss limits. I have seen that IB has a truly impressive list of order types and at the moment, I'm inclined to give IB a shot even though I have set up an (unfunded) account with TradeKing.

IB has much lower costs than TradeKing. They don't have a lot of trailing order types, so it takes more work, but worth it if you're up for it.

There's also Lightspeed, they also have per-sharing pricing, I'm not familiar with their software, commissions are little more than IB but a lot of day traders use it.

Here's Barron's review of best brokers in 2014 - The Best Online Brokers of 2014 - Barron's

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  #194 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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shodson View Post
IB has much lower costs than TradeKing. They don't have a lot of trailing order types, so it takes more work, but worth it if you're up for it.

What I like about IB is the ease of entering an order.
You can configure your order so that they automatically have a bracket order attached.
Bracket orders can be adjusted by dragging and dropping on the chart once the parent order is executed.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #195 (permalink)
Carrerain4
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I'm not eligible for IB due to the amount I'd have available to deposit, plus I don't yet have 100 trades in my logbook.

But I can use TK until such a time as I grow the account to 10K and by that time I should have more than 100 trades logged.

TK will be my stepping stone to IB.

The next time I say "I want 1.25 per share" and somebody says "I think it'll hit 1.40 a share" then I'm going to set my stop loss at 1.25 and my sell order to trigger at 1.38.

I don't really quite understand the whole resistance/support phenomenon, but apparently there is something to it
as I've seen a lot of stocks that took a while to break an even dollar amount and then once they've broken it, they're
well on their way to the next dollar almost immediately. And to a lesser extent, I see resistance at every 50 cent and every 25 cent level.

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  #196 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
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this is a good discussion on resistance/support. It is not a huge read but lots of good stuf for a beginner on the subject

Support and Resistance [ChartSchool]

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Carrerain4
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Alibaba's upcoming IPO price is set to be between 60 and 66 dollars per share.

No telling what I can actually get it for the moment the shares are open for general sale, but you can bet that I'm going for ramming speed. I'll throw every tradable dollar I have into it. Both accounts, all in.


The general feeling is that it's going to be a BIG ONE as IPOs and future performance goes, and if it just makes its way
into the top 10 IPO performers over time, then investing all you can into it might set you up for life if you hold it long enough.

The Google IPO was the 10th largest IPO in history and if you bought 10,000 dollars worth of Google stock at the IPO price in 2004, it would be worth over 100,000 dollars now.

The best IPO of all time was Priceline. 10,000 dollars invested in it at the IPO would now be worth over 450,000 dollars.

The only thing about the Alibaba IPO that concerns me is that possibly it IS overhyped and people may be expecting too
much out of it, in which case it'll probably go through a bubble scenario with a large correction some several months or a couple of years down the road. But I think the long term prognosis will give a reliable upward trend and it will be a very good stock to buy and hold. I plan to keep it in my retirement account for the long term, but will use it in my smaller account to build cash value quickly.

My belief is that its short term gains potential will make it highly competitive with just about any stock you are likely to find. I think it could double within one week. It might even do it in one day.


Time will tell. But I will be buying into Alibaba the moment it comes available for purchase.

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 deaddog 
Legendary Market Wizard
Prince George BC Canada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: IBs TWS
Broker: IB
Trading: Stocks
 
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Remember FB

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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Carrerain4
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
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I've always considered FB to be worthless. It's a trivial distraction with no real value that I can discern.


I sat down and finally entered all my trade data into a spreadsheet.

Since I began trading (and this journal) I have made slightly over 1000 dollars profit between my two accounts.

I don't have a precise number at the moment that defines my actual percentage yield, comparing initial account values to today's values, but it will be over 10 percent in total and that includes all my mistakes, losses, and fees.


The smaller account has a higher percentage yield but the larger account has of course generated more raw cash profit.

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Shelley
NYC, NY, United States
 
 
Posts: 9 since Aug 2014
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I'm happy to see you're learning. You mentioned that you don't know why price will be going up or down and are trying to figure it out. Keep it up. Try using support and resistance, it's a starting point.


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