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Newbie seeks new Porsche via day trading. See what happens.


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Newbie seeks new Porsche via day trading. See what happens.

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  #161 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Carrerain4 View Post
I had to be a little flexible, and I was. There was some price chasing going on but I set a max entry price for the stock at 1.10 but tried for 1.05 with the initial order. I got 175 shares for that but had to bump up to 1.08 to get the rest.

I got it within my set criteria. Pass.

Limited price chasing within established limits is acceptable to me. I simply can't be chasing prices WITHOUT
a defined maximum I wish to pay already firmly in mind.


My goal was to get 3 cents per share if I got my buy-in at a max of 1.10 per share. I believed that it could move to 1.13 in the day, and obviously it easily beat that number.

I got my desired gain. Pass.

I made a profit. Pass.

Due to the way my brokerage is structured, I can either have a stop loss OR a sell order in place, but NOT both at once.

Since I had to get away from the house, I placed a sell order based off of my buy price. I could have set a stop loss,
but my choice was to go for the profit rather than guarantee the loss.

I realize there is always a risk involved with not having an active stop loss, but I had to make a choice and accept the
risks that come with it.


Switching to Tradeking will likely help me to be able to both have a stop loss in place as well as a limit order to sell out at if the price goes my way.

But I don't have that feature available to me now so there's no point in worrying about it.

I have lurked on your thread...I think you viewed my assessment of SEAS as negative because I gave it only a 30% chance of success at reaching your target of $22.00. But there are many sick people that would take a 30% chance of beating their disease...no I am not suggesting you are sick .... and you did take a decent profit for your efforts.

Then I saw you pick WPCS...I actually liked that pick for a swing...I still do.



You had picked it in the throat of that Bollinger band squeeze.... but you did not know that. It rose above the upper bollie band and today fell back which is normal...but this still looks fine.

I don't think you are using Stop loss orders right....You should not use a Sell order combined with a stop-loss. If you think about it...the sell order defeats the purpose of the stop-loss.

Let me explain....

The stop-loss prevents a sudden slide in price...Frankly I prefer a LIMIT STOP LOSS...not a plain STOP LOSS.

What is a limit stop loss? It sets a limit range that you would be willing to sell at....

Say your stock's price was say $10.00 and you thought it was going to rise but you set your stop-loss at $9.95 and the price had a sudden downward spike to $9.00...a market order would activate to sell your stock at the best price you could get...maybe that will be $9.00.

Then you curse are the price shoots back to where you had set your stop-loss.

If you set a LIMIT STOP LOSS then you would have your STOP LOSS still at $9.95. However, you give it a range to be a valid sell order...say $9.92...

The same spike would fly through without tripping the order to sell, you can then watch it rise and make a real decision to sell or not as it rose from that spike....you have more control...you could even cancel that Limit Stop Loss if you felt that spike was crazy.

If on the other hand, the stock slowly drifted through this range that you have set then you would be stopped out and usually a slow movement through a range shows more serious intent of a failing stock.

Now why is a stop loss (or a Limit Stop Loss) and a sell order not such a good idea???

By setting a stop-loss type order you are limiting the downside losses BUT NOT the upside gains.

Once you set a sell price you limit the upside gains


So, What I do when I figure that I have reached an acceptable profit...I just set a Limit Stop Loss order that is all....if the price rises I just change the stop loss price higher...I keep on adjusting that stop loss price higher as the stock price rises....each adjustment pretty well guarantees more money in my pocket.

EG. Let us say I buy at $10.00 and it rises to $10.25...Perhaps I would set a Limit stop loss to $10.08 - 10.10 range.....the price rises to $10.30...then I could raise the limit stop loss to $10.18 - $10.20.... the price rises to $10.40...then I could raise the limit stop loss to $10.28 - $10.30....the price could fall back to $10.35... I do nothing but watch and hope for this price to rise again.....

I never set a sell price because it is not necessary... that would be limiting your gains. When the swing has ended it will reverse direction and trip your stop loss.

See...you limit your losses....but not your gains.

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  #162 (permalink)
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 11 given, 49 received

Underexposed, thank you very much for your comments and input. It's just the sort of thing that really helps me to learn in a very 'real world' manner. Relating my actual experience to charts, etc.


But, please understand that my current brokerage has very limited buying and selling order types.

I didn't use a trailing stop or trailing limit order because they don't offer that.

And, they don't allow you to place both buy and sell orders on one security at the same time.

So I could have a limit sell order or a stop loss, but not both.


Otherwise, I would have done it more like you suggested.

I'm not rejecting the idea, I simply can't implement it through Vanguard.


The point at which I can transfer over to Tradeking is when I can meet the minimum funding requirement for a Tradeking account, which I believe is 2000 dollars.

My smaller account isn't up to 2000 dollars yet. But it is getting closer.


Yeah, I could transfer money from my larger account (one of my retirement accounts) into it to fatten it up,
but one of my personal rules that I have sworn never to break is that the retirement account is just that, a
retirement account and no money shall be siphoned out of it unless it is a dire emergency and I've tapped out all my other funding sources. I am free to try to grow that retirement account by actively trading in it, but money in
that account STAYS in that account even if I should be so fortunate as to turn it into millions within months.
It's not money for me to touch until retirement.

And, a big part of this whole trading adventure is to see what I can make of the accounts I started out with,
without making any additional outside contributions into them. So just adding money to it (which I could do)
would be cheating on myself and I am not inclined to do that.

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  #163 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


I am not saying that you are a liar but I find it very hard to understand that any brokerage does not allow a Limit-Stop-loss order.

I am not saying to use an Automatic trailing stop loss...you can do the same thing mechanically simply by reviewing your existing order(s) and electing to change that order.

Here is a screen shot of an order entry that I use...I doubt that this is different much from any order entry for any brokerage.



As you can see in this drop down list box....there is no selection for a Limit Sell on Stop(Stop Loss) or Limit Buy on Stop(Stop Buy)....also there is no "trailing function" anywhere on the selection window.

So...you select (in my case) "Sell on Stop"



then you enter the limit price....if you did just that you have set a normal Stop Loss

to make it a Limit Stop Loss then you fill in the box on the bottom with the minimum to the range you want

In this case if I entered this order I would have set a limit stop loss order for 100 shares of TD on the TSX exchange at a price ranging from $55.50 to $56.00

to make a change just adjust the prices when you want to....it is manual.

If I have insulted you by this post....I apologize in advance but you seem to be a visual guy to me.

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  #164 (permalink)
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 11 given, 49 received

No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

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  #165 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

well that is pretty limiting then....BTW I don't day trade at all...but I still use limit stop loss orders as I described as an exit from any length of trade.

Oh well that is how I would use stop-loss {sigh}

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  #166 (permalink)
Site Moderator
Portland, Oregon
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: F-16CM-50
Trading: GBU-39
 
tturner86's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,162 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 10,446 given, 12,566 received


Underexposed View Post
I am not saying that you are a liar but I find it very hard to understand that any brokerage does not allow a Limit-Stop-loss order.

I am not saying to use an Automatic trailing stop loss...you can do the same thing mechanically simply by reviewing your existing order(s) and electing to change that order.

Here is a screen shot of an order entry that I use...I doubt that this is different much from any order entry for any brokerage.



As you can see in this drop down list box....there is no selection for a Limit Sell on Stop(Stop Loss) or Limit Buy on Stop(Stop Buy)....also there is no "trailing function" anywhere on the selection window.

So...you select (in my case) "Sell on Stop"



then you enter the limit price....if you did just that you have set a normal Stop Loss

to make it a Limit Stop Loss then you fill in the box on the bottom with the minimum to the range you want

In this case if I entered this order I would have set a limit stop loss order for 100 shares of TD on the TSX exchange at a price ranging from $55.50 to $56.00

to make a change just adjust the prices when you want to....it is manual.

If I have insulted you by this post....I apologize in advance but you seem to be a visual guy to me.


Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

I may be missing something but aren't you talking about a Stop Limit @Underexposed?

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  #167 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


tturner86 View Post
I may be missing something but aren't you talking about a Stop Limit @Underexposed?

I think there is a confusion of nomenclature some times....

As I showed in those screen shots (which is strictly for stocks, nothing else)...

Using the "sell on stop" option then you would set a limit price for your stop loss and this would be a normal "Stop Loss" order, I have no idea if you just use the Market instead of limit...it would probably issue a market order to sell...which is obviously not what you want.

Then if you enter a number (less than the limit) into the Stop Limit...then you set a range that you want the sell order valid.

So say you have a stock with a price of $10/share....you set a Stop Loss at $9.50 to protect you overnight for example.

But you wake up and find the stock sold at $8.50 ???? WTF!!.....but you look at what happened and found the stock's opening price was at $8.75...which automatically caused a market order to sell your stock at the best price it can get...you are now in a queue to be sold and eventually it sells at $8.50.

But we know that often that short spike can even be generated by a market maker in those low penny stock so they can trip any stop loss orders and then they gobble up any shares they can get..... also you usually see that despite the plunge in the morning...often (not always) the stock price recovers somewhat and you may at least get a better price for your shares even if you believe the plunge was justified and though it has recovered a bit more drops can be expected.

So how can you protect yourself from unscrupulous manipulation and plunges that do recover?

Well you put a limit on the stop-loss (Limit stop loss order)

Coming back to our $10.00 price and desire for protection we set the Stop Loss as before however we set a limit as to when the order is valid to sell. For example: we set a range of $9.45 to $9.50...the sell order is only valid within that range...above and below the order is cancelled.

It is my experience that if a price takes minutes to pass through that range most if not all of your shares will sell and you will sell your shares at an acceptable price to you.

If the price plunges below without selling in your range...or even if some but not all sell in that range...the sale of the shares will stop....the order though is still valid if the price passed through and rose back up into that range...which can happen.

If you see the price rising but your shares are unsold....you may elect to allow the shares to sell when they rise back into your limit stop loss range.... or you cancel that order and enter a new order to sell the share to take advantage of that brief rise so you get a better price... or you may cancel the limit stop loss if in your opinion the price will rise back to higher than your stop loss ( probably what I would do is change the limit stop loss values at a level below the rise from the plunge and manually adjusting those numbers as the price rises and selling at least a better price if it falls again.

By setting a LIMIT Stop Loss...in the event of a dramatic drop in price, you retain some degree of control...with an ordinary stop loss you have no control over the price that the stock is sold.

My brokerage calls what I describe as a Limit Stop Loss...other brokerages may call it something else I suppose.

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  #168 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received

@Underexposed you provide great information in your posts. Thank you!

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  #169 (permalink)
Site Moderator
Portland, Oregon
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: F-16CM-50
Trading: GBU-39
 
tturner86's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,162 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 10,446 given, 12,566 received


Carrerain4 View Post
No worries, I'm not insulted at all.

Vanguard doesn't offer those order types. I even called to verify that and ask if the brokers working for Vanguard had those options. They replied that they did not. The Vanguard platform simply doesn't support them.

Vanguard's only order types are:

Market
Limit
Stop
Stop Limit

That's it!

I could post a screen shot to prove it, but I don't actually think that's needed. It'd just back up what I just wrote.

And no combinations allowed. I can preset ONE order type. And if I decide to sell NOW rather than wait for a limit order to sell, I have to cancel the limit order before I can do that.


Vanguard is really aimed at the long term investor. It's not a day trader's kind of brokerage.

Which Order To Use? Stop-Loss Or Stop-Limit Orders

@Carrerain4 should be able to use a Stop Limit to accomplish what @Underexposed has described.

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  #170 (permalink)
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 11 given, 49 received


Yeah, that was still more good information. Much appreciated.

And, still more reasons for me to migrate to a more "full featured" brokerage as soon as I'm able to do it.


I've observed that "morning dip" very often. I've seen it so much that I'd be inclined to ride it out, knowing
that it is almost always a VERY temporary price dip and now that you've explained that this is most likely a move
made by a market maker to trigger stop losses, tank the price, and then buy shares on the cheap, it all makes sense.

I wonder how much money (and how many shares) are involved in the market maker's move to make the price move like that. Obviously those numbers could vary dramatically depending on market cap, number of shares outstanding,
share price, and other factors, but at a minimum, I wonder how much it takes to do that.

I'm starting to think that my style of trading is becoming more "swing" and less "day" as a quick review of my entire trade history to date, and checking on those stocks since I traded them, shows me that every single one of them
had substantial profit potential that I could have exploited with more patience and a well though out trailing stop.

Yeah, I know, hindsight is always 20/20, but a more educated trading strategy combined with a brokerage that gives me more
ways to structure a buy or sell order could have made 100 percent of my trades more profitable.

So, yes, I am sure that I am learning. But still limited (a lot!) by my brokerage's very limited range of buy/sell order types.
A problem that will soon be fixed by a brokerage switch.

I no longer feel like I have to be out of the market by the end of the day. Going overnight or multi-day is fine.

But I am seeking significant short term gains on a repetitive basis. If I can get those short term gains then that
is still what I would prefer to get.

Just getting 1 percent profit, trading once a week rolling the profit back into the trading fund, and repeating the process for ten trades yields 11 percent profit.

If you held on for a month to get 8 percent, and managed to do it again next month, you'd also net 11 percent
but I think it will be harder to get 8 percent in one month than 1 percent in 1 week.

So I'll swing when I need to but prefer to keep my trades within the day if they meet my profit targets.

My target is 2 percent after fees for a day trade, and HOPE for more in a swing trade. But I'll still take 2 percent.

I've been doing better than that on average.

So far.

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