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iqGod's Own Country
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iqGod's Own Country

  #181 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Out of curiosity, why have you taken this punishment approach recently? (I think I recall you mentioning it a couple times)

Some things for you to think about:
- In times gone by the general approach to children was to smack them and scold them when they did anything wrong. Times have changed today. Most people understand now that to get the most out of their kids they need to motivate them and reward them. Get them excited about achievement.

- In times gone by people use to train dogs by hitting them whenever they didn't do a task correctly. Times have changed. Today people know that to train dogs you need to reward them every time they do something right and offer constant positive feedback. The dog gets excited about doing the tasks correctly.

- In times gone by in the corporate world management would dictate what needs to be done and yell at anyone stepping out of line. Times have changed. Today management and staff work as a team towards a common goal. Staff are made to feel important and part of the process.

The examples could carry on....

What is the single theme here? Punishment is a poor motivator. Punishment is a poor creator of excellence.

You might want to consider doing a complete 180 on how you view punishment vs reward and the results they produce.

Good luck.

Fantastic post.

Positive reinforcement.

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  #182 (permalink)
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Could it be that self-flagellation is actually my disguised goal?

@DarkPoolTrading made some points which seem more oriented towards the correct results.

I thought hard and long - yes, I made a mistake.

Yes, I broke my own spell by boasting.

I think I've been punished as is by my stupid loss.

And as @isla said I was not focused on loving the process - was looking at (and even counting out) the money involved which let to this temporary setback.

So calling it such, it is just that - a temporary setback where I forgot the processes that I need to focus on.

Taking the advice to heart, I do believe the punishment approach is completely cruel to the part of me which wants to excel. In fact I had already said just reiterating: I would love myself and my successes would be built on love.

So I am taking the negative event in my stride. It isn't that I've blown up or something, its just that the loss was enough to offset a few months of gains. So what? Things are still working here, I actually know why I did that silly thing (thanks @ratfink) and I also know how I can coolly continue to mindfully do the correct things.

I refuse to give up and were the dunce cap, there are too many conflicting voices right now because the losses hurt, and this makes it much much more difficult, but I do promise to put in all the hard work and effort it takes just as I did earlier.

I will continue posting my results instead of withdrawing and playing hookey.

Please continue your love, many of you continue to humble and illuminate my path much more than you can imagine....

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  #183 (permalink)
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ratfink View Post
I can tell you the exact moment that caused it because it helped me when I saw it happen. It was when you felt compelled to tell IndexTrader that you were doing really well when he asked.

Love and punishment and reward are interesting issues but reality always wins.

Stay cool and look after yourself, the trading will come if it's meant to.

Here is a quote from "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey

Reflect on the state of mind of a player who is said to be "hot" or "on his game." Is he thinking about how he should hit each shot?

Is he thinking at all? Listen to the phrases commonly used to describe
a player at his best:
"He's out of his mind";
"He's playing over his head";
"He's unconscious";
"He doesn't know what he's doing."

The common factor in each of these descriptions is what might be called "mindlessness." There seems to be an intuitive sense that the mind is transcended-or at least in part rendered inoperative. Athletes in most sports use similar phrases, and the best of them know that their peak performance never comes when they're thinking about it.

Clearly, to play unconsciously does not mean to play without consciousness. That would be quite difficult! In fact, someone playing "out of his mind" is more aware of the ball, the court, and, when necessary, his opponent. But he is not aware of giving himself a lot of instructions, thinking about how to hit the ball, how to correct past mistakes or how to repeat what he just did. He is conscious, but not thinking, not over-trying. A player in this state knows where he wants the ball to go, but he doesn't have to "try hard" to send it there. It just seems to happen-and often with more
accuracy then he could have hoped for. The player seems to be immersed in a flow of action which requires his energy, yet results in greater power and accuracy. The "hot streak" usually continues until he starts thinking about it and tries to maintain it; as soon as he attempts to exercise control, he loses it.

To test this theory is a simple matter, if you don't mind a little underhanded gamesmanship. The next time your opponent is having a hot streak, simply ask him as you switch courts, "Say, George, what are you doing so differently that's making your forehand so good today?"If he takes the bait-and 95 percent will-and begins to think about how he's swinging, telling you how he's really meeting the ball out in front, keeping his wrist firm and following through better, his streak invariably will end. He will lose his timing and fluidity as he tries to repeat what he has just told you he was
doing so well.

Rebuilding the relationship between Self 1 and Self 2 is the key to retaining that "hot streak".


As soon as we reflect, deliberate, and conceptualize, the original unconsciousness is lost and a thought interferes. . . The arrow is off the string but does not fly straight to the target, nor does the target stand where it is. Calculation,, which is miscalculation, sets in...

Man is a thinking reed but his great works are done when he is not calculating and thinking. "Childlikeness" has to be restored with long years of training in self-forgetfulness.

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  #184 (permalink)
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iqgod View Post
Here is a quote from "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey

Reflect on the state of mind of a player who is said to be "hot" or "on his game." Is he thinking about how he should hit each shot?

Is he thinking at all? Listen to the phrases commonly used to describe
a player at his best:
"He's out of his mind";
"He's playing over his head";
"He's unconscious";
"He doesn't know what he's doing."

The common factor in each of these descriptions is what might be called "mindlessness." There seems to be an intuitive sense that the mind is transcended-or at least in part rendered inoperative. Athletes in most sports use similar phrases, and the best of them know that their peak performance never comes when they're thinking about it.

Clearly, to play unconsciously does not mean to play without consciousness. That would be quite difficult! In fact, someone playing "out of his mind" is more aware of the ball, the court, and, when necessary, his opponent. But he is not aware of giving himself a lot of instructions, thinking about how to hit the ball, how to correct past mistakes or how to repeat what he just did. He is conscious, but not thinking, not over-trying. A player in this state knows where he wants the ball to go, but he doesn't have to "try hard" to send it there. It just seems to happen-and often with more
accuracy then he could have hoped for. The player seems to be immersed in a flow of action which requires his energy, yet results in greater power and accuracy. The "hot streak" usually continues until he starts thinking about it and tries to maintain it; as soon as he attempts to exercise control, he loses it.

To test this theory is a simple matter, if you don't mind a little underhanded gamesmanship. The next time your opponent is having a hot streak, simply ask him as you switch courts, "Say, George, what are you doing so differently that's making your forehand so good today?"If he takes the bait-and 95 percent will-and begins to think about how he's swinging, telling you how he's really meeting the ball out in front, keeping his wrist firm and following through better, his streak invariably will end. He will lose his timing and fluidity as he tries to repeat what he has just told you he was
doing so well.

Rebuilding the relationship between Self 1 and Self 2 is the key to retaining that "hot streak".


As soon as we reflect, deliberate, and conceptualize, the original unconsciousness is lost and a thought interferes. . . The arrow is off the string but does not fly straight to the target, nor does the target stand where it is. Calculation,, which is miscalculation, sets in...

Man is a thinking reed but his great works are done when he is not calculating and thinking. "Childlikeness" has to be restored with long years of training in self-forgetfulness.

I read the book you are referring to, and although it was good enough, it was hard to see how some of the concepts could be applied to my trading.

Tennis is a physical game. The author talks about how our consciousness can interfere into and reduce the quality of the connection between our brain and muscles. But, in my opinion, it is more appropriate to compare trading with game of chess in this case. Like in chess, thinking through possible scenarios, questioning your reasoning is all part of a trading process. And while you may develop intuition, with time, the core of your activity still lies in a conscious thinking and reasoning. The thinking time will be reducing with practice, but there are limits. I guess parallels could be drawn with any other intellectual activity/profession really. The analogy with tennis would be more appropriate if we were discussing the process of clicking the mouse button.

This is why trading is not all about your attitude and psychology. The game does take place between your ears, but making right decisions is an important part of it.

I think your problem lies in your method, or belief in your method, rather than anything else. Just my opinion.

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  #185 (permalink)
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isla View Post
I read the book you are referring to, and although it was good enough, it was hard to see how some of the concepts could be applied to my trading.
....
This is why trading is not all about your attitude and psychology. The game does take place between your ears, but making right decisions is an important part of it.

I think your problem lies in your method, or belief in your method, rather than anything else. Just my opinion.

But today it was no method in the entry - perhaps its the belief in method - it could be argued that I lacked faith in my proven method and jumped in without a signal which lead to this loss.

Thanks for making me think - I think that is drawing it out piece by piece whatever it is.

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  #186 (permalink)
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iqgod, why do you have confidence in your method? From your journal I can see that many of your exits were based on "intuition". Which is fine, I guess. But do you have a track record using your intuition as a trade management tool with positive results?

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isla View Post
iqgod, why do you have confidence in your method? From your journal I can see that many of your exits were based on "intuition". Which is fine, I guess. But do you have a track record using your intuition as a trade management tool with positive results?

Okay: The exits are NOT supposed to be ad hoc or intuition based - they are fixed at 8 ticks from the point of entry. It is the point of entry that is substandard in the places where my intuition comes into play - the method is well defined, the setups are easy to locate, the entry is simple enough, and the stop can be moved to places where it invalidates the premise - all in all it is like cycling.

But in real-time I do these four major things which are not for my well-being:

1. I second-guess myself and skip valid entries thinking 'Aha, this is so clear that it means 'THEY' (whoever 'they' are are fooling us and it won;t work)

2. I really feel I do not have the time I need to do this. So I take trades at substandard locations scared that I will not get time and the days will run out of my life and I will get old without any trading and money from trading under my belt! (you may think I'm out of it or whatever, just putting the real reasons that seem real to me now)

3. As @Pedro40 said, sometimes there is risk aversion and loss aversion at play - a whisper that says 'take your two ticks and scramble back into safety! Why do you insist on 8 ticks?'. And the result is 2,3,4,5,6 tick winners again and again and again instead of that 8 tick prescribed win or a stop out where the idea is invalidated.

4. A very real desire to not succeed, to continue a mediocre existence, to give up, to continue the cozy easy life in a cocoon where I am not held up to anything, a pretense of boredom, a belief in a savior (magic will eventually work) - basically all lies by the fake self who strives to maintain his status quo. I am sure many people have these problems 3 and 4 but they are magnified in me due to some memories of early abuse.

In effect I keep disrupting the method, what is in the journal seen is the disruptive power of the human hand to a solid method. that is why the book I mentioned is an exact parallel. There is no excessive analysis here, just letting probabilities play out and taking a trade based on what is to the left of the chart. Some trades win some lose but the net is a rising equity curve. I could've said it works solid on sim but that is not an argument.

So yes, 'I' have no confidence in my method but that I is many parts and some parts are now better than they were a few months ago. I focus on continuous improvement.


Note: None of this means I have to give up. I am fighting a wall and I will not turn back into a wimp EVER.

As @indextrader7 said, NEVER EVER GIVE UP.

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  #189 (permalink)
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Emotions aside, points 1 to 3 suggest that you are not comfortable with this method. Please correct me if I am wrong. Point 3 is sort of marginal with psychological, but considering you trade euro, and 8t moves don't happen that often with your entries (currently), your subconsciousness may be trying to tell you something your mind hasn't yet accepted. Which is specifically the fact that 8t moves don't happen often

Your method may be quite objective on paper, but do you actually have a record of trading it using proper parameters you mentioned? I looked into this method about two years ago, and while it seemed to be well thought through, its applications were rather questionable. At least for euro/6e, haven't tried it on anything else. I faced some of the problems you mentioned as well.

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isla View Post
Emotions aside, points 1 to 3 suggest that you are not comfortable with this method. Please correct me if I am wrong. Point 3 is sort of marginal with psychological, but considering you trade euro, and 8t moves don't happen that often with your entries (currently), your subconsciousness may be trying to tell you something your mind hasn't yet accepted. Which is specifically the fact that 8t moves don't happen often

Your method may be quite objective on paper, but do you actually have a record of trading it using proper parameters you mentioned? I looked into this method about two years ago, and while it seemed to be well thought through, its applications were rather questionable. At least for euro/6e, haven't tried it on anything else. I faced some of the problems you mentioned as well.

I do not have a real answer for you or for me at this point.

This method is the utlimate in comfort actually - be an idler all day long, keep a watch on your charts, have setup? take setup ... else continue idling..... while 'idling' may be a rude label to this hard work, but it is another name for patience and conceptually seems easier - 'You there, sit here and idle till x y z sets up...' instead of 'You there, sit up, back straight, observe the charts minutely, see their every movement and be ready to act and pounce when the moment comes.' so stressful.

Repsectfully, what you are talking is perspective - I am comfortable with this method!

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