Thanks for starting this thread. I have been following Mack as well, but am looking to adapt PAT to the 6E, 6A, 6B or something in addition to the ES. Watching only the ES on a 2000 tick chart is too slow for me, especially on days like today and the past week or so. Plus, my schedule doesn't allow me to trade all day every day.
I have a question about the second trade. If this was me, I would have taken the SEL after the #2 bullish candle with either a stop entry order or a limit. I would have gotten filled with either order and then stopped out. What prevented you from getting trapped and waiting for a FSEL? Am I entering the trades 1 bar too early? Should we be waiting for the bar after the second push higher/lower to confirm?
Also, can you provide more details on what you consider pre-market trading (hours)? Have you tried using a tick chart at all? What are your typical stop limits and targets for the 6E on a 5min chart?
Thanks,
Kevin
The following 4 users say Thank You to pedalon for this post:
Great question on SEL [ Second Entry Long ]...
If you look at today's chart, you will notice that the 6E was in an overall downtrend.
My trading partner suggested on sitting on our hands on the SEL and wait for a Bull Trap....
Being that the overall trend was down.
So we did and cashed!!!!
This again is a classic Bull Trap Trade.
Price never really cleared the 21 EMA with any conviction and soon rolled over underneath for the score.
Trust me, I was not trading like this a few weeks ago....
This is why I'd like to open up more dialog with traders who think like this and show examples.
You can make a a good living just waiting for Traps......
As far as initial risk, it's all on the setup bar. In most cases it's 8-10tix. But high probability.
For now I'm focusing on cashing in on 4tix scalp profits and with my trade log, look to further optimize
that for more tix if need be down the road.
Remember 4 tix is $50...
How much $$ you want to make per day?
Do the math. I believe $500 - $1000 is a nice start. Just need to prove you can do it consistently making $50.
With those profit numbers, might want to suggest going to SP500 trading 10, 20 or 25 contracts at a time....
don't want to think too far ahead, but it can be sooner than you think...
cheers
Mike S
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You make it sound like 500-1000 a day is easy, I would say not blowing your account while keeping your size small and learning something is a nice start
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I have been watching a couple of Mack's videos since VinceVirgil recommended them in one of his posts, but was shocked when I saw one of his videos where he scalps the ES for 4 ticks take profit and a stop loss of 8.
Which would mean he has to get more than 66% winners to break even, you might even need 70% with some brokers.
Which made me avoid buying his 100$ manual, as I thought nothing good can come out of such trades.
Whats your thoughts about implementing his strategies on CL ?? I am a previous Euro trader on forex market, CL trading can provide much more entries than Euro per day. And what was your Stop loss on these trades you posted ?
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How useful is that squeeze indicator for you, you didn't mention it for both of your trades. Just wondering what kind of actions, if any, do you take when it indicates or signals for a trade.
I've used for a while with mostly negative/mixed results. That's why I'm asking.
Btw I'm talking of John Carter's squeeze indicator, if that's not it, it looks very similar.
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Agreed... Keeping your initial contract size small while being consistent is way to go.
I was just saying if you want to make $500 - $1000/day, just trade same way, going for 4 tix,
and just trade more contracts. No need to change your trading style to swing or anything...
All the hard work is done up front making $50 per day!!! From there it is ez making more $$
Mike S
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Also in that trade scenario, even if you went for the long.. you could have reversed and gone short once
you realize you were in a trap. Yes you will be down x amount of tix, but you also stand an excellent
chance of doing a recovery trade to get tix back.
I believe in this trade your risk was 7/8 tix... not too difficult getting your tix back on reversing trade for recovery...
What I do is trade 1 contract long and go for my 4 tix. If I get caught in trap, I then double down with
2 contracts and go short for 4-8 tix. The trap creates an impulse move, for Buyers and Sellers are
trading in same direction. Notice the aggressive move down when the SEL failed.
Excellent way to get your money back and even make a profit if going for up to 8 tix.
The key is spotting the trap.
Will post more examples of this....
Mike S
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My trading partner forwarded me this chart today to share...
Here's another example of SPOT THAT TRAP!! on the 6E [Euro]
The lesson learned here is the small bodied Green candle was your first push up in the pull back count....
so when price went below that, that was count 1
The second push down, which fails and creates the TRAP, is more obvious to see. See chart for notes...
This also happened at or near the Channel Trend line and EMA.
This is where the magic usually happens close to these levels....
so in a sense we were in a Bull Channel so the TRAP created a WITH TREND long!!! AMAZING!!!!
Also notice the large or impulse like Green candles after entry. Both Bulls + Bears are buying creating this aggressive move...
Want to keep posting charts like this spotting these pattern setups that happen each day.
Need to train eyes in seeing it live!!!
All are welcome to post charts and discuss if valid trade or not.
Lets ALL learn and start the consistency
Thank you
Mike S.
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The indicator is from a vendor who sells the Boomerang System [ Mohan ].
It's called HyperScalp. A momentum indicator.
I do not use it in my trading anymore. Call me lazy ...
On future charts that will be removed.
For now, just need 5min chart and 21EMA and learn to spot 2nd entries and traps[ failed 2nd entries ]
These occur everyday and need to instinctively see them and take the appropriate action when they appear.
Mike S
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I believe he scalps for 4 tix. Takes off 1/2 contracts from that point.
Brings his remaining contract(s) to Break Even [BE] and goes for runners.
At this point, it becomes a free trade, so to speak...
Mack states: 'Every trade starts off as a scalp until proven otherwise...'
I use between 8-10 tix initial risk. Again it depends on the setup bar. I might drop down to a smaller
chart 2/3min if 5min bar appears to be too large for my entry....
As far as CL... I think Vince does an excellent job trading with a 15tix risk / reward and save a contract as a runner for those
explosive moves that we all love to see on that instrument.
I believe anything smaller than that, you would be getting stopped out often.
Need to let that breath a bit as it finds its way when you take trade.
As far as amount of entries on a daily basis... for me 2-5 setups is perfectly fine. I shoot for daily profit of $75 - $100 per contract.
Trying to build consistency and put it all together.
Everybody has different goals when it comes to trading... I believe if I can consistently make $75-$100 a day per contract, then
as time goes on, if I want to make more $$, just trade same way and add more contracts!!!
I've included a Profit Matrix, originally done by Perry in his Aug 2011 Webinar, showing how to increase your profits by simply trading more contracts....
Mike S
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The dashes show where the bar closed. They are not plotted on the earlier bars due to a parameter within the indicator limiting the number of bars to keep.
The following 4 users say Thank You to gbpack5 for this post:
I like your chart but have questions on when a "push" is valid (when counting on an uptrend):
1. I was assuming it was when the wick went higher than the prior wick?
So you are using the Closes.
2. What about a pure doji (i.e. no body), go with the close being higher or lower than the previous close? What about if they were equal?
3. Looking at your same chart, let's discuss the swing from 2:15+ to 2:45: a) I had been counting that first green bar, since it's wick went higher? (therefore at bottom of channel you have a valid signal?)
4. My method, of counting the overall "thrust" of each move, i.e. where wick goes higher, seems to capture the essence of each push better (at least that is what I'm finding, see the link below)? With each little channel, you can see each thrust more clearly (sorry for posting ES, but that is what I was working on) So, it was not literally candle by candle but rather each little thrust (grouping of candles), which I'd agree, does make it tricky. Which method is more true to what is taught in your opinion? 2013-07-20_1812 - GregHohman's library
5. I haven't figured the best entry method. A friend told me to wait until the entry bar closes (i.e. not the signal bar), and then place your limit order a few ticks back, that seems to generally work, your thoughts?
6. What is that little white line on close indy, and have you found it indispensible?
Thanks man, gh
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Great to see somebody using Mac's. Whats your target/stop ratio? I have also looked at the 6e but not sure what stop/target I might want to use for early session.
the meanest bean of all,
MeanBean
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I'm a scalper by choice [ 4tix ] for most trades.
In time I will start to learn to trade like Mack and scalp x amount of contracts off first for 4 tix
and save a few for runners.
Now, it's all in / all out for 4 tix.
Risk will be based on setup bar... so in most cases 8tix or less.
There's another setup I'm looking at named the 'Engulfing' candle setup.
This will be my potential swing setup... going for more tix.
For now I will post charts on this and initial target is 1:1 risk...
Mike S
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Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
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Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
grabbing 4 ticks seems to be the sweet spot, on the ES range moves, where they traverse 6 - 7 ticks from top/bottom of these waves, however,
even using resting limit order entry, instead of market (which usually runs +1 tick higher), how often does the trade work and print +3, and even sometimes +4, but doesn't take you out and close the position?
generally to bag +4, the current price has to print at +5 or higher and remain there to drain all pending / resting orders at +4
questions are;
1) do you ever short rift and end the failed attempt using "close", instead of letting it reverse into BE or -1, -2?
2) do you ever settle for +3 when you notice it stalling at +4 with no chance of it going to +5 (read note above)
3) do you watch these trades with eagle like precision or set them and forget them?
4) how many dry holes dug before you hit oil? 3:1 losers?, 2:1 losers?, 1:1?
What I think lsubeano means is that this particular forum is for vendor and product reviews. This thread on Price Action Mack Style sounds more like a trading journal. Check out the other threads in this forum to see what I mean. Much more of a discussion on vendors - good / bad / ridiculous / etc.
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Actually I think he may have meant this thread as more of a journal. There are at least 2 other review threads for "Mack" already, one for his daily youtube videos and one for his site which is priceactiontrading.com .
The following 3 users say Thank You to mongoose for this post:
just found your journal on using Mack's PAT and it stopped. Are you still active with PAT or on a different thread, was really interested in sharing, discussing PAT using Mack's methods.
Thanks, TripK
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Hello fellow Price Action Traders. I'm so glad to see so many others finding success using Mack's teachings! He is a wonderful mentor. At the beginning of this year I happily joined the ranks of the profitable traders (in large part due to Mack's teachings).
I've always been curious to know how many others are profitable thanks to Mack's teachings. I wanted to start a poll on this subject, but I'm not sure how (or where to put it, for that matter). Anyhow, I hope that all of you are finding great success with Price Action Trading as well. If you haven't reached that profitable stage, just keep at it. It will come! I can speak from experience. It just takes a little time.
I'd be interested in hearing who else has had their lives changed by Mack's PATs. I hope others share.
P.S. I know this is a trading journal, so I'll leave a link here to my journal wich shows entries following Mack's techniques as well. I also post videos of live trading days on youtube (which are imbeded in my journal). If anyone is interested, you are welcome to post/view/etc. there as well.
Hello all. I've recently joined the ranks of "the profitable traders". This is in large part due to the teachings of Mack from PAT, and others like Al Brooks, Linda Raschke and Vince Virgil. I have made slight adjustments in what I look …
Hello Fellow PAT traders,
I am glad to see there are more people that have discovered Mack and his price action trading strategy. As you know, Mack makes his living trading and then shares his daily review of his chart to help people like us learn the PAT strategy. However, IMO, the place to learn his approach to PAT is on his web site and his daily Youtube videos. It does not get any better than that. If a person is interested learning how to day trade the S&P 500 emini futures, symbol ES, then Mack is your man. He only trades the ES and once again, makes his living doing this. He does not jump around to any other instrument. (He does not need to.) If you want to become a successful (meaning profitable) day trader then learn from Mack. Of course, this is just my opinion, Mack is the best and most cost effective mentor on the internet. I am finally on the road to becoming a successful day trader, trading only the ES in the morning session. This is all I need to meet my daily goal and grow my account.
Check Mack out. priceactiontradingsystem.com
Steve
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No, I am a member of Mack's premium site and have been studying his approach since May 2013. Day trading is not easy to learn, but if I am ever going to learn it and be successful it will from Mack. I contend if you cannot learn price action day trading from Mack, then you will probably never learn it.
Steve
As long as your actual risk (the max amount of ticks the trade goes against you + 1 tick) is equal to the scalp target then you are good. I may enter a trade with a 8/10/20 tick stop, but take my profit on my actual risk. It the trade went against me 5 ticks then 5 ticks would be a scalp target, 10/15 ticks would be a swing. (A caveat with this is I do not allow a trade to go against me more than once, once it is in my favor and past a scalp profit I will bring my stop to B/E.)
The biggest thing is being patient and taking the best setup, if you can do that you will have a higher % of winners.
The following 2 users say Thank You to tturner86 for this post:
Mack says that the addition of indicators other than the 21 bar EMA will not improve your success with PAT. It just adds complexity and confusion. Keep it simple but still effective. All you need to trade the ES is a 2000 tick chart with a 21 EMA. Then draw in the trend and channel lines to define the Support/Resistance (S/R) structure. All trades will be located at some KEY S/R level.
Steve
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Mack teaches that your maximum entry risky should be no more than 8 ticks. However, you place your protective stop 2 ticks above/below the signal bar (usually the prior pivot level). If this placement is greater than 8 ticks, then try using a LIMIT order to get a better entry level. If you cannot get a max risk of 8 ticks with this proper placement of the protective stop and the LIMIT order idea, then skip the trade. Mack says that you need at least 8 ticks of clearance to assure you do not get stopped out prematurely. If you learn and follow Mack's trading rules, you should be able to achieve 85% or higher reliability. This will offset your concern that your entry risk is greater than the first exit target reward. Finally, roughly half of the trades will have a runner with the second exit (if you trade 2 contracts or more) so your bottom line is nicely effected by your runners. If you learn and follow Mack's rules, you should have no problem making your daily profit goal. But, once again, you must follow his rules or "all bets are off"
.
Steve
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Your posts read like an advertisement for this vendor. Some would think you are working for the vendor to promote them. This is not allowed on futures.io (formerly BMT).
If this is not the case, I suggest not using the promotional language in your future posts as it is not helping your reputation, nor the vendors.
Hi to all, I am improving now for few weeks Mack PAT traiding ES 2000tick chart. I am plannig to open live account, which broker you think is better to have for this type of day traiding. Max. 5 trades per day, max. 50 per month. Please if you can recommend me some company for this day traiding strategy, I am from Czech republic if it is important. And also I am using ninjatrader. Thanks a lot to all for any advice.
Is there anyone here who trades the same way as Mack shows in his video who is consistently profitable? And I'm not talking about a week or two but for months. I get the feeling that he only shows his winning trades and have to wonder if he is truly profitable or just doing this to sell the manual. It just seems that most of his trendlines had to be drawn after the fact because of all the "overshoots" and such.
I have watched his videos and looked at his course, but I chose Al Brooks course over Mack's. I do watch his daily recaps on the ES. I thought the same thing as you that he may hid his losses. I don't really care either way, if you go with a system you need to tweak it to fit you, or find one that fits you the best. Trading is highly personal.
Hello all. I've recently joined the ranks of "the profitable traders". This is in large part due to the teachings of Mack from PAT, and others like Al Brooks, Linda Raschke and Vince Virgil. I have made slight adjustments in what I look …
I am trading in Sim the ES where the basis of my trading is Mack's price action trading teachings. He has a website and a youtube channel where he goes over the day. He lets you know where the good trades were and …
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Thanks for the links!
Yeah whenever he shows the trades in the videos (after the fact) he makes it seem like it's so obvious and that anyone should be able to see these trades but then when he sees a possible setup playing out as he's recording the video its always "oh it wouldn't surprise me if it went higher but it also wouldn't surprise me if we come back down and test the lows. We'll just have to wait and see" Not as easy when its happening in real time.
But I suggest looking at the charts everyday after the close and highlighting the entries, yes it is in hindsight. But it helps teach you what the outcome will look like. I did this on the NQ and ES for each day all the way back to 2008. I believe that this has helped me to spot patterns and signals as they are forming.
Once you do this you will start to see the setups forming when you are watching it live. I can spot an MTR almost an hour before it forms. Once I spot it, if it doesn't form the way I though sometimes it will be a failed MTR. Either way, I am prepared on how I need to trade almost an hour ahead of time. Depending on how they form I can spot wedges within a few mins. I also have been pretty good at determining a range from a trend.
So take the time to review the charts and build the patterns into your mind's muscle memory. Then when you are trading live you will be surprised how easily it is to spot patterns as they form.
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This is the common journal for futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members who are currently trading or interested in learning more about the PATs Price Action Trading method as taught by Mack.
Why another new PATs journal now ?
The intent of this common …
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When you say you looked at Mack's course, do you mean you bought it? Aside from the use of the 2,000 tick chart (vs. the 5 minute chart) and I believe his use of stops and scalping out of trades while keeping a runner, do you know of any other major differences in how Mack trades vs. Brooks? Are there specific entry bar signals that they use?
I have read quite a bit of Brooks stuff (not his books or course) and quite a bit of Mack' stuff (blog articles and videos on the youtube channel) and am having trouble discerning their different trading styles.
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I did not buy Mack's course, I have only watched the videos on YouTube and read the blog. I bought all 4 of Brooks books and the video course. Mack's system is like a step beyond Brooks price action and is more about his trade management and execution. That is the main difference. Brooks doesn't really provide trade management like Mack. There are suggestions and ideas but not a set form of rules. Brooks focuses on position size, he is trading the SPY (for beginners). It is hard to focus on position size when you have only one lot on ES.
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My understanding is that Brooks' original book is tough to read, but that the newer ones are much better. With that said, they are broken into 3 volumes. In your opinion, do you need to buy the three books if you are going to buy the course itself?
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Books 2-4 are all of book 1 broken down and simplified.
I have always suggested to buy the three book set and the videos together, that way you can watch a module and then read the corresponding chapter in the book. I found for me it helped to understand and drive home the different aspects.
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hello ofcak!
My name is Phil, i live in Vienna...not far from you..
you wanted to open a live Account for trading macks strategy.
Which broker did you finally choose and are you successful with it?
I also plan to trade with his strategy soon, i would be happy to hear your expieriences.
Hey Tim welcome to 'futures.io' glad to have you as part of the community. I am also part of the 'Macks' group on skype. I am sure you will find 'futures.io' we worth the membership. There is just an amazing amount of info not to mention fellow like minded traders sharing experiences. All the best!
Once interesting feature of Mack's system is that he trades a tick or volume chart of the E-mini. He then draws trend lines starting from the overnight data that project into the opening. These trend lines may not be noticable using minute data. This can sometimes give you logical entry points right at or near the opening.
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This is the common journal for futures.io (formerly BMT) Elite Members who are currently trading or interested in learning more about the PATs Price Action Trading method as taught by Mack.
Why another new PATs journal now ?
The intent of this common …
After I posted to what is essentially a dead thread on this very subject, I got a lot of PMs from traders stating that after much time, effort and money - they just couldn't get PATs method to be profitable. Hence why the thread dropped dead overnight.
That doesn’t mean PATs method is bad, but as accessible as it appears, it doesn’t work for a lot of people.
I like Ken. I believe his motives are genuine but there is a lot of context involved when it comes to replicating his method.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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Hello
I wondering if Macks room on Skype still open and how to join.
Looking for trading room that we can share trades idea looking/applying Macks/Brooks principles.
Just trading chat, setups etc.
Let me know
Thanks
The following 2 users say Thank You to Srq1 for this post:
Infinite, thank you for you opinion,
If you don't mind sharing, how are you applying PA to your trading that is making you 90% win trades.
Thanks again
Srq
The following user says Thank You to Srq1 for this post:
Well, now that I know it doesn't work for others is reinforcing the "there is no magic setup".
What I have been using and working ok for me, nothing is 100% sure, is using the double moving average crossing, I use a 3 and 5 ema or a 8 and 50 ema, depending on mkt. conditions all intraday trades,
What do you use for your intraday trades, if you don't mind sharing, some do , some traders don't mind
Thanks
Srq
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For me the books were so hard to read and the Course is a much better tool. It's like going to class and hearing the Professor vs just buy the class book and reading it at home.... Seriously, think about it.
I took his $99 a month live room for almost a year. That was the best investment in Trading Ed I've had. I've spent thousand on others.
It was best because it was live and the Market is changing day to day, hour to hour and 5min to 5min. Best of success in your search.
This question just jumped at me to answer. You can sample his stuff on YouTube as well. Know it is ES as the primary market.
Yes, I have purchased Macks stuff and John Paul's Day Trade to Win with software which are ok and some others I'm TOTALLY embarrassed to I say I purchased as they were such CRAP... But the Brooks course I do recommend without the books
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I realize I'm in a thread called "Price Action Mack Style". I know nothing about his style and just needed a starting point to post my trades/charts. If I'm in the wrong section I apologize and will find another thread.
I'm still short YM, aiming for 23521 for a target. To the left of this area you will see support, John...
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My original target was 23521. Just came back home to find my target was missed by 1 tick at 23522. Decided to close my trade at 23532. Today's Tick count is plus 72.
When in a trade I have an idea where my target should be, However my number one concern is managing my risk. Very seldom do I have more than 20 ticks at risk per trade. If Price Action starts moving in my direction I start protecting my risk by moving it behind structure. Because at times structure is not so apparent on larger charts I look at lower time frames in order to find these locations, John.
The following 2 users say Thank You to JMP3 for this post:
I tend to concur with @Devil Man in that I believe your analysis would be more appropriate in your own specific thread. I, for one, am interested in your perspectives and style of trading. Keep up the good work
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Thanks Sazon, as far as starting a thread I will be doing so soon. I've been trading for many years, however it's been a part time endeavor. I'm retired but do not rely on trading as an income. It's pretty much a fun hobby. As far as a trading style, there's really nothing written in stone. I guess I'm a discretionary trader. Thanks again, JP.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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The following 3 users say Thank You to JonnyBoy for this post:
There are literally so many variables to this question. I recommend...
1. Download 12 months worth of charts.
2. Mark every second entry that failed or write a script to do it for you.
3. Study results.
4. Conclude that 50% of failed 2nd entries will trade in the opposite direction.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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The following user says Thank You to JonnyBoy for this post:
The chart is really lacking in information. Can't see your trend channel. Can't tell where support or resistance are. Not enough information. Especially as you want to bet the market has put in a high and is now reversing back down.
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Nothing complicated about it at all. My name isn't Jon, but I have been called Jon since I can remember.
He can choose what we wants to be called. If you think it's shady, don't use his service.
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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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The following user says Thank You to JonnyBoy for this post:
I agree it can look shady, but in this case there may be more to it - it is along time ago since I followed Mack for a while (could be 6 plus years ago) but if I recall correctly Mack and his Dad had exactly the same name (ie a Snr and a Jnr) and lived in the same fairly small town - so that might be why he didn't want to use his full name.
Bear in mind Big Mike (owner of this site) did/does not make a big thing of his full name (although it is easy to discover).
I am not going to breach Mack's privacy here. Google is your friend. When I was following Mack all those years ago it did not take me long to Google and find out his real name and where he lived and what else he did/does.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr, Danish Physicist
